Redemption Arcs Need to Stop Skipping the "Arc"
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.ค. 2024
- Redemption Arcs have been experiencing a decade of prominence, where many creative works that have villains are increasingly unwilling to do anything with those villains EXCEPT redeem them. And for as celebrated as they are, they are also the subject of extreme amounts of criticism owing to the increasing trend of villain/victim redemptions/recoveries being extremely quick to jump from "antagonist" to "best buddy" seemingly on the whims of principle or (more commonly) thirst.
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00:00 - Preview
00:10 - Intro
00:46 - Snapshot Redemptions
02:39 - Riku
06:04 - Zuko
07:21 - Peridot
08:25 - Sunset Shimmer
09:10 - Gideon Grey (No Seriously)
11:03 - Andy DeMayo
12:18 - The Diamond Authority
14:14 - Fandom and Fetishes
20:12 - Conclusion
#stevenuniverse #redemption #kingdomhearts #avatarthelastairbender #zootopia #equestriagirls - บันเทิง
There's a sentiment among some rather sad folk that my dismissal of the idea of deradicalization is condemning all conservatives as irredeemable. They're not. But they can get themselves out of that hole of they want to. The resources are there.
My objection is to the hero complex that treats conservatives like kids being lured into a windowless van. They're not. They're adults, they can get themselves out of the hole. They do not need to be rescued by you.
People who aren't convinced by studies aren't going to be convinced by shouty edgelord Marxists who don't know how to shower.
I've done it! I went from watching Crowder's stream daily to being a fullll fledged fan of Innuendo Studios' "Alt-Right Playbook"
It's not hard, the person just has to be open to change
1:19 Insert Kingdom Hearts meme here. Because that "okay, I believe you" thing happens a lot in that series so much, someone even made a meme of it.
You're the first youtuber that is able to make me understand the plot of Kingdom Hearts.
Lol
I never understood it.
I'm not sure if you've followed MHA, but what are your thoughts on Endeavor's path to atonement/redemption?
Two things really stood out to me in Gideon’s scene. The first being how he immediately apologizes to Judy upon seeing her. Like he couldn’t get it out quick enough. Almost like he’s been practicing what he wanted to say for so long in the event that he would end up running into her again that he pushed himself to say his piece before his nerves got the best of him. Judy didn’t even have to say anything about the incident to get him started. The second being that he didn’t ask for forgiveness, all he wanted was a chance for Judy to know how sorry he was for treating her badly. Judy could have responded in a lot of ways, none of which had to be acceptance, but I bet he didn’t expect Judy to empathize with him in the end.
This was wonderfully put💞
I love that scene in Zootopia
My brain totally thought you were talking about gravity falls for the first half of the comment
@@AevitosTrath Same bro
@@AevitosTrath yeah, same here
A lot of people claim to "love" "slow burn" but when it's not literally just abuse or unresolved sexual tension suddenly they want to teleport from point a to point b
Amen.
I am guilty of tbjs
Never underestimate the power of friendship, family, and being horny for the redemption of tyrants and overcoming evil.
PS… I can’t get over how bad Steven Universe was… gosh I loved that show and came to just hate it more as it went. Genocidal Dictators just needed talking down from a kid they’re related to and they’re totally redeemed. Ugh…
Man for me, I think my new redemption hate Boner is for hunter. Absolutely deserved no hype, useless the team, and him being alive or dead doesn't matter because anyone could literally have filled his position while they discovered the same revelations with the same emotion turmoil.
I love the owl house but god I hope they kill off hunter at the end.
@@LeavanDragon I guess I agree with you I don't really like Hunter that much I kind of miss when he was the golden guard not to mention he's so overrated but I'm pretty sure that if he wasn't white and nobody would give a shit about him
@@theenoogie let's not forget about spinel, who LITERALLY ALMOST ENDED THE W O R L D BECAUSE SHE WAS "LoNEly :(".
and all she got as punishment was comforting words???
@@LeavanDragon Hunter simps cannot go two seconds without talking about him, even when the focus is on another character entirely. I'm so tired of him always being in the spotlight and overshadowing Willow, Gus, etc. He had potential at first, but now he's just the Angst Boy™
I love the fact that in Steven Universe they establish the whole gems poofing thing and that never crosses the character's minds it was just shatter or hugs, a violent yet non lethal solution was baked into the story but they still bent over backwards to make the Diamonds good with wordfu.
@Eashgirl2 to be fair, apparently that whole redemption was supposed to take two whole seasons, but Cartoon network cut them short, so they had to cram all that development into one extra long episode
Honestly I would have been fine with Yellow and Blue getting redeemed. It could have represented a good metaphor for how loss and pressure damages people around you, but with a whole empire.
But White should never have been redeemed. She would have been better off as the villain who was so different she couldn't be fixed.
but how exactly did they make the Diamonds good?
Sure, they're doing what IS good, but they're not even doing that to redeem themselves. They just want Steven to approve of them in general (in the movie, they literally say what good they've done just so that they can convice Steven to stay, who is clearly uncomfortable around them. He keeps this discomfort around them, even in Future).
And speaking of, Steven does NOT even comfort or empathize with them. What was his compromise that wasn't shattering or poofing? *_Putting their powers to good use to decolonize and repair corrupted and shattered gems_* . That's not making them redeemed, that's making them undo their many wrongs (which is basially possible; they are essentially gods, after all. That's better than getting rid of them for good when so much can be exploited out of them)
What do the Diamonds get after? Avoided and shunned by Steven, their political power taken away from them (Future's Homeworld is under a democracy, and there is ABSOLUTELY no mention of the Diamonds except for any fixings), and left to clean up their messes whether it be physical, mental or psychological. Oh, and White almost gets murdered by Steven, himself.
But sure, of course, they were given hugs and happy rainbows and were redeemed.
=
TLDR: the Diamonds weren't made good or redeemed. They're just sentenced to eternal community service, basically (they could also be drug dealers in obscure alleyways if their Future appearance is to go by)
@@ntfoperative9432 "Actually SU was affected by a cancellation-"
I looked it up. It wasn't. They got the time they needed, their ideas were just bad. Given the rest of the show suffers from "Executive Producer is Weeb Tommy Wiseau" it's safe to say the same issue happened here.
Taken straight from the FAQ comment pinned at the top
@@IronycheinPain Honestly the concept of the diamonds being driven by grief and pressure from White had alot of potential for their character. SU kinda went downhill towards the end. Not bad, but was mainly mediocre. Future... was awkward. Like bad awkward with alot of the things they tried to push and again with an unsatisfying ending. The main issue I have with villians and redemption arcs is that its overused alot lately when it comes to modern cartoons. Really a show that suprised me with how it handled its Villian was Centaur World. That show is done so dang well.
But the point im trying to make is there is never the case of Villians or antagonists facing the consequences of their actions. Then there is the issue of a villians motives... lets take a look, at something like Gravity Falls, Bill well omnipotent is trapped his motive is to escape and pretty much just reek chaos across the known universe. Now lets look towards the diamonds from SU. The Diamonds have two motives, 1. Revenge for the "murder" of Pink diamond and getting past their grief. 2. Conquer the galaxy for... what? Cause they can? Cause their bored?
No offense but the motive for conquest doesn't make sense when it comes to their species. They are Lithoids who don't need to eat, don't die from age, and if their fragments are gathered they can can be brought back to life despite being in a Shattered state.
So what would drive a species of normally immortal beings to be so militaristic and Enforcing. That motive for homeworld and the diamonds is so weak its not even funny.
Catra’s “redemption arc” was so … passive. She just switched sides and worked with the group, and didn’t really have to put in the work. Sure, she suffered a lot, but she didn’t really DO anything. . Even on my first watch it was just one of the worst parts of the show. If she had really proved herself, actually apologized more sincerely, and cleaned up her messes, it would have been more believable.
I completely agree. The parts where she "sacrifices herself" came across as more suicidal than heroic, plus she was so gosh darned FUN as a confident villain. I've watched the series and her "redemption" made so little impression on me that I don't even remember it.
They made her crimes way too extreme for her to even right most of her wrongs, so she was doomed from the start. I guess they just wanted Catra to be decent enough to be with Adora (which failed horribly anyways,) and completely ignored all of the people who definitely died because of her. I actually thought her redemption arc was better than most because she feels regret and apologizes more than once...my standards were super low-
She was doomed the moment they decided to make her the main villain and a full on war criminal in season 4. They needed the angst of her being at her worst and rising in the system that out her in that state, and completely ignored the fact that they have only one season left for it to unwrap into a redemption. The worst part is they were CLEARLY setting her up to redeem her.
IMO if they'd focus more on the atrocities (her lowkey suicide attempt) the portal activation most likely caused instead of jumping into sexy cat girl in tight suit she'd have a lot of potential to be good, or at least decent
i think they took wayyyy to long to have catra start doing good things. She does some pretty bad stuff in s3, but unforgivable stuff in s4. They should've spend s4 and s5 redeeming the bad stuff she did in s3. instead, they dug her deeper into irredeemable territory, then just gave her the back half of season 5. not enough time imo
Honestly, if she had been a reluctant villain or in name only, she probably would have been a better character. Like, she loves Adora and wants to be with her but is terrified of the main villain (don’t remember their name and don’t care to look it up) so she doesn’t dare leaving them because of how she’s been abused and groomed by them.
That way, she wants to help Adora and toes the line when she can, but it takes time for her to build up the courage to leave them. Also, dial back the violence and her crimes a bit, and she could a similar arc to Zuko. She might even sabotage the villains plans from behind the scenes so Adora and her friends can win, without making it look like she’s actually helping them. And at least there the viewers would have sympathy for Catra and be on a similar page as Adora, who just wants to save her girlfriend from her abuser, because they can see that Catra’s been abused, lied to, gaslit and manipulated for years and needs time to break free from that hold.
But no, I guess we needed her to be the absolute worst in every single way and literally be an abuser to everyone, but especially to the girl who she supposedly loves above everything else.
Whatever happened to soft, genuine and cute romances? Why can’t we have more of that?
I’m noticing a pattern with what makes a redemption arc good or bad. A good redemption arc has the villain of the story try and change their ways and actually try to be better. Peridot, Shimmer and Gideon all change because it’s their decision and they want to do it to help people as well as themselves.
A bad redemption arc is when the “hero” of the story just hands out a chance for the villain to redeem themselves while disregarding everything that villain has done to other characters. Glimmer, Andy and the Diamonds are all just told to change their ways despite the villain never considering that themselves.
I think the main reason the first way is better is because it actually lets the villain have a chance to be a proper character. If people want to slap the term ‘deep’ or ‘complex’ on a character, then just let them make the decision themselves and make the arc 100% about them as an individual. It not only gives the villain a chance to seem sympathetic because they’re choosing to change their ways themselves. But it also won’t reflect so badly on the main character by not having them just hand out forgiveness on a platter.
You really hit the nail on the head. I think the pattern with the good redemption arcs being self-motivated is also why Lilith's redemption was so underwhelming, because her decision to change actually _was_ self motivated, it's just that they didn't do anything else with her after that. Lilith's setup for a redemption was actually serviceable, especially since the season 1 finale implied that it was gonna take more effort for Eda and her family to trust Lilith, it's just that after sharing the curse nothing really came of it. I think that's what the scrying potion was supposed to be, but that conflict didn't really relate directly to her confronting her need to excel at the expense of people in her life, nor did it involve having a meaningful conversation with the person she hurt, it was just about her bonding with Hooty. Based on how ghoulish what Lilith did to her sister was, redemption would have still been a hard sell, but at the time it at least seemed like they were gonna put effort into selling it. Putting her on a bus was still technically better than having her eat screen-time and stagnating like Starlight, but the fact that they actually got kinda close in the beginning probably makes her redemption more disappointing than a lot of the bad redemptions discussed in the video. Not worse, but disappointing.
I think it's catra not glimmer
@@saragoodman1020 I meant Starlight Glimmer.
@@sunsetvibe1063 oh sorry my bad
Basically for the redemption arc of your villain/antagonist to work, you need to give them agency.They should decide on their own to change and become better, if another character proposes the idea for them to change or forces them to change then it's not their own decision anymore,which means that their agency has been taken away and now they're progression/development is dependent on someone else.
A lot of shows really neglect how valuable it is to let go of people who won't change and cause you harm. This is SUCH a valuable lesson for kids, but so many shows are obsessed with keeping the peace and "fixing" people, when adulthood generally teaches you that good ol 'no one changes unless they want to' lesson. Teaching kids to try and redeem abusive family members is a pretty dangerous one to put out there but it's rarely challenged. Thanks for another great, thought-provoking video, Lily! :)
Absolutely. It's good to show that people can change, but it should be made clear that such change ultimately has to come from the person themselves, not as a magical consequence of someone else saying the right words to them. And kids should also be shown that some people just don't want to change, and that kicking such people out of your life for the sake of your own well-being is a good thing, actually.
This writing conundrum feels like a conspiracy constructed by narcissists who want to leave people vulnerable and with moral shame for daring to leave their abuser.
"how dare you prioritise yourself over the tolerance of your abusers behaviour, if you gave them a chance they will turn around one day since their not out to hurt you, they just need you to guide them and so don't be selfish!!"
thats how i felt with the bad guys... while i dont think snake was fully gone i feel like it'd be so much better if they took the direction of wolf and the gang having to leave him because how far gone he became and that close friends who are against your happiness shouldnt be in your life anymore
Yeah, and them redeeming being okay because they were deeply hurting
That's not how that works, just because you're sad and traumatized doesnt make it ok to enslave children
@@platinumdragon3007 The redemption arcs, particularly ones where the main characters try and succeed at getting someone to change, may also lead kids to believing that if someone is being abusive that it's on them to fix it and if the abuser's behavior doesn't change, that it may be a failure on their part instead of the abuser's.
Zuko got more flack from the Gaang for being a traumatized (albeit dangerous) child of a despot than the Diamonds got from Steven for being despots themselves. (Dear God, I hope that sentence made sense.)
Well yah but the difference is that Avatar is a good show
@@bluebay1031 you have defeated your refutation with your own point you say Steven universe is a good show yet also point out they poorly do multiple arcs also the creator of this video literally has an over an hour video about why the show is bad
I haven’t watched a lot of Avatar but damn I stan Zuko.
It did, sadly 😢
You can redeem a villain and some characters who obviously don't want to be bad and so on... but to redeem an entire league, that's being an idiot, or for Captain America to redeem all the Nazis, that would be retarded in writing.
Just to add to the rushed reception arc trope there’s also the ones where the character is the villan or just a bad guy for a good majority of the film or tv show, they get The Redemption Talk, and then they die for the hero. Instead of trying give them an arc or even just saying their good now and help the hero, the just kill the person off so the hero can feel bad and think the classic “oh maybe they had a point” garbage
So Darth Vader?
People need to realize that death≠redemption
*looks at Shadow Weaver*
I like this when the death is an act of atonement but it doesn’t redeem the Villains in anyones eyes but I hate when everyone suddenly forgives th
@@Scarlettt343 they are very clear that she was not forgiven they just couldn't hate her either so atonement not forgiveness
Whenever i saw villains get redemption arcs i was like:
Dude, they are totally lying.
Trust me they will betray the character a few episodes later cuz a real character or person wouldn’t just randomly turn good.
Then i turned out to be wrong.. but also right..
I got the initial part wrong about the betrayal but the real character or person wouldn’t was right.
Honestly, I don't know why people don't do this more often? It won't work every time of course, but it would be more interesting. Especially if the protagonist is very selfless or easy to forgive others, and wants to see good in everyone. They instantly forgive the one who doesn't deserve it, doesn't make them work to be better since they instantly trust them, and you see how fake nice the antagonist actually is. Then they use the protagonist's kindness to be an even better villain, and the protagonist maybe goes through an arc about only seeing the good in people that deserve a second chance.
@MusicKat Yeah, but only if the villain is an ugly male POC. If not, then the Writers thri... I mean, tolerance for the villains' capacity for evil deeds will make it out in the end of their "arc".
@@YEY0806 Yes! Ouch! But yes! There needs to be more analysis on how "beauty" affects a character's perceived value.
now this is what I wanna see
@@MusicKat217 Writers need to realize that sympathy isn't the only way to make a villain interesting. Another trope is that can be used is Fallen Hero, where a nice person goes through a tragic event and becomes a darker character. Sensui from (YuYu Hakusko) is a great example.
One thing I think is interesting is that the *other characters* forgiving the villain should be its own place(s) in the arc too.
Like it all depends on who and what was done, but some characters are going to forgive straight away, some are going to need to see genuine proof the former villain was trying before forgiving, some forgive but never accept the villain, and some never forgive.
I totally agree... and in some cases, forgiveness needs to be earned. Zuko (Avatar, the Last Airbender) has multiple Forgiveness Arcs. AtLA also demonstrates that (Katara) never forgiving someone (the general who killed her mother) doesn't make the wronged person a villain.
That's literally what she just said.
"Like it all depends on who and what was done" yeah that was the entire point of the essay
Exactly! I agree with you entirely on this. A great example of this done well is a manga called medaka box. Halfway through it the main character recruits one of the main villains to be part of the main character group. We see different people come to accept the villain while others don't like him in the slightest no matter what he does. Hell the dueteragonist was blinded by him for a temporary amount of time so throughout the story he never can stop looking at him with disgust no matter how much he helps him.
@@ZetroFox9274 OH MY GOD, FINALLY ANOTHER MEDAKA BOX APPRECIATOR!
Misogi Kumagawa is one of the most fascinating characters I've ever seen. Plus he's just plain fun!
Katara had her own forgiveness arc for zuko cause having losing her mother to the fire nation like that is very painful and then having to be with the fire bending prince makes it hurt even more and she had to cope through it and learn that he has changed and is no longer like his father
I just don't understand why the idea of just killing the villain had fallen out of favor. Everyone gives the excuse of "it's a children show." But kids shows had been killing their villains since the 80s, and the only ones who don't are shows for really young kids, and ones that have a cast of recurring villains. Of course the ones that do kill their villains will inevitably be labeled as "not for kids" by 30/40 somethings who cried in the theater at Transformers the Movie.
I think that should have happened in avatar. If aang had to make the choice to kill ozai and not been given a lion turtle ex machina I could imagine a fourth season of aang coping with post war trauma. So much more narrative potential is out of that.
Also ozai had no real reason to lose influence. Dictators in the real world don’t have magic fire yet can still coordinate genocides.
Disney movies have killed their villains for literal decades and nobody complains about Ursula, Scar, Clayton or Gothel dying because they were evil people who very much deserved it. And yeah, of course they don’t show anything too gory or messy, I think Tarzan is one of the darker deaths in a Disney movie since we see him being hung, even if we only see the shadow, but of course they won’t. You don’t need to show a bloody, gory death for it to be a good death, you can make it kid-friendly without any major problems.
But yeah, children’s stories have been fine with killing their bad guys since the dawn of storytelling, so the whole idea of not killing bad guys because it’s “inappropriate for children” is just B.S at this point. If Disney could get away with killing their villains in the 30’s then we can do it now too. I remember the movies with bad guys dying I saw as a child and I didn’t feel particularly bothered by it, BECAUSE THEY WERE THE BAD GUYS!!! No one is going to feel bad when a irredeemable monster dies at the end of the story, or at least they’re not supposed to!
One of the most satisfying moments I’ve seen a movie in quite some time is seeing Hitler getting kicked out of a window by a 10-year old after having been dragged ass-backwards through an hour and a half of being ridiculed and made fun of and made to look like a pathetic, sad loser with a stupid mustache and an obsession with ‘the perfect race.’ And in a cartoon aimed at children, we’re being shown the importance of forgiving those horrible people who will hurt anyone and everyone else who different from that perfect picture…
@@tenkenroo well, Ozai losing influence does make some amount of sense. His Fire Nation was essentially a fascist regime, and, as fascist regimes often are, was obsessed with power - specifically, firebending power. So it makes sense that losing his bending would make him a defeated and broken man in the eyes of most of his former followers, and thus unfit to lead, even if he were still alive. That said, there would definitely still be Ozai loyalists around, as well as people trying to continue the old regime under some new leader.
Also zuko lost the Agni Kai. A foreigner interfered so any legitimacy of zukos rule would immediately be called into question. So these fascists would point out that foreigners came in and made them weak. I think the ending of avatar was a sloppily tied bow to make things easy. Honestly it would have been better if ozai had been killed and aang had to live with doing what was right even if it broke with his personal morality. It’s okay for a series to have bittersweet or somber notes.
@@tenkenroo The comics had a crumb, an atom of that idea that the stanbase lives on with someone attempt to assinante Zuko for not being Ozai, but that plot beat is wrappped up as fast as Hama's
Regarding Zootopia: I wonder if Gideon had gone through anything like Nick's childhood flashback, being the target of no-holds-barred bigotry and concluding that if he'll never be seen as anything more than a savage predator, he may as well embrace it.
I think the best non-redemption arc in recent media is the Nowhere King from CentaurWorld. They gave us the backstory that would be used to make the viewer sympathize with him, they separated the "evil" side from the "good" side, and at the end they had him return to what he was before everything went wrong. They had every ingredient to make a compelling redemption arc.
Yet despite all that, he DIDN'T get his redemption. He never had an "I forgive you" moment. Instead, the person that ostensibly was the catalyst for his entire evil arc ended his arc with death. Because no matter how much he apologized, or regardless of how pitiful he may be, those that were murdered by his own greed and self-loathing will never come back. His actions were irredeemable, and the show made it clear that regardless of how sad your backstory may be, that's not justification for your own terrible actions.
Then there's white diamond.
Actually some of the best redemption arcs are the ones where the character ends dead , even if you change, you can't erase your past, my favourite example of that are both Red Dead Redemption
@@Braint-lr6uf Boromir.
Whole heartedly agree with, except confused a bit on the “good” and “bad” split. The elk and the general were both perfect copies of the elktaur mentally, just one got what they wanted and became human while the other did not. Switch the minds and you’d get the same outcome. Both at the end were horrible in their own right, as the general was selfish and the nowhere king was obviously a monster in every form of the word.
@@MissCaraMint I'm going to act like if I understood your comment.
@@JustSomeDude42 you're absolutely correct. I was more referring to how they'd be perceived. As the one that the audience sees as being "wronged", the Elk side tends to elicit a feeling of sympathy, whereas the general is clearly coded as the bad guy. Giving the audience someone to sympathize with would allow the creators to give us a redemption, but they stuck with the fact that both sides were wrong, even if one side was more mistreated.
I gotta say, of all the characters I expected to hear about, Gideon Grey was seriously off my radar, but I'm happy to see him here. A more grounded view of attempting to atone for past sins and be better is really refreshing, even compared to the other positive redemption arcs. And maaaan, I felt my disappointment over Golden Guard grow again with your preview. We really missed out on having an unrepentantly evil trash child, and we are poorer for it.
“We really missed out on having an unrepentantly evil trash child, and we are poorer for it”.
Lexyr, you really gonna make me make an entire notes page of golden quotes from you aren’t you?
That’s the goal!
@@Lexyr_ “Lexyr’s Lavish Lines” is a notes page on my phone now, I hope you’re fucking proud of yourself
💜💜💜
I agree, honneslty Gideon's scene reminded me of soem things that have happened to me, where my old school bullies have come up to me and actually apologised for being asshats when we were kids. Like it doesn't erase what they said or did to me while growing up, but knowing that they've seen howcawful they were to me and my friends is certainly enough for me to forgive.
Something people really seem to forget is that a tragic backstory SHOULD NOT excuse evil. It can explain some decisions, but that doesn't forgive them. Punishments still need to be met out. Some villains have just done too much to be redeemed.
You mentioned time but another element that I will forever associate and argue is essential for a good redemption arc is that they’re ultimately very personal stories. Actually, unless the character clearly crosses a moral line like genocide what they’ve objectively done wrong scant matters when compared to the personal harm they did to characters we care about.
Using Gideon Grey cause no seriously, when we’re introduced to him, he’s already bullying some other kids. He does also bully Judy but she wasn’t by any means the only victim, implicit or explicit. He hurt other people beyond Judy, yet that don’t really matter. Ultimately what does is that he apologises to Judy, to the character we care about most that was hurt most by him. His apology scene is ultimately a blink and you’ll miss it moment too because people remember the night howlers revelation a lot more than the apology.
With Zuko too. He does objectively atone to the rest of the world over what his family has done, through joining the Gaang and life as FireLord later but that’s either passive in the background or post-mortem. What matters is Aang, Sokka (And Suki) and Katara, him atoning to them. It’s even a joke that Toph never got a life changing adventure with Zuko because she never needed it. Well, beyond burnt feet vengeance.
All those very effective stories... well, take their time to be personal, to let the characters introspect about why they did what they did, how that harmed the people around them, and ways to atone. Actual changed behaviour that includes a change in the What, How and Why of the behaviour. Most importantly, it is that intimate and personal element that makes their impact last.
Like you said, a redemption arc is a change in motivation, a change in a character’s why. That’s probably the most intimate part of a character and it takes time to dig deep enough to see it, much more to change it.
I agree with the fact that toph never needed it and also looking back all those adventures to help make so much more sense with him wanting to make up for things he did in the past. Toph was willing to give him a shot and considering a great fire-bender was the main thing they needed she knew it was probably the best shot. For some reason no matter what your talking about avatar: the last air bender probably did it better. The show is objectively a masterpiece that no matter how many times you watch it stays just as good. There are so many details I never thought about before. Like with why Aang could water bend so easily was because being calm and collected with lots of focus is great for water bending. No matter what it will always be one of the best shows I can remember.
I do agree since for me I do think when it comes to redemption the character needs to take some time and look into their past and see weather or not they did bad, and then they accept what they did and try to do better moving on.
Unlike the 180 turn around for many characters and don't reflect on what they did and just call that the redemption. Because at that point it's just a stupid situation.
I literally never understood why Toph never got a "life changing field trip" with Zuko but went out of her way to point out that fact until I read this comment. Because the show pointed it out, I did think it was weird, but I didn't get why that was a decision until you explained what it meant. Thank you, random commenter.
This is why I love adventure time with the ice kings story. He was our main villain at first and at the end he stood with our heroes, yet he still never had a "redemption" arc. Him being 'evil' to him being 'fixed' were all almost entirely out of his control.
İt's mostly because of the crown.
I love the vampire episodes and Finn and Jake are more upset with the vampire trying to seduce him. “Hey he’s semi reformed!”
To be fair Ice King was as much of a villain as Dr Doof is.
@@alchemistofsteel8099 More like similar morals. Like Doof isn't really evil. He just wants to prove his brother that he's not just a nothing.
As much as I love Rise of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, I have to say Baron Draxum’s redemption was not done well. It’s not entirely the writers’ fault since the show was cut short, but what we ended up getting was Mikey basically forcing his family to accept Draxum as a “new dad” despite the fact he kidnapped Splinter and effectively ruined his normal life and has tried on multiple occasions to kill the turtles, like when he threw Leo off the roof. Oh and let’s not forget Draxum wanted to eradicate all humans or at least turn them all into mutants against their wills.
And Mikey is all like “he’s family” when all Draxum did was make the turtles into what they are. Parents don’t get a free pass for terrible behavior because they are your parents. Heck, Draxum barely qualifies as a parent, Splinter was the one who raised them. If Mikey want to have a relationship with Draxum, that’s his choice. But he shouldn’t have forced the others to as well. They should’ve forgave Draxum on their own terms in their own time.
I feel like that due to how much Mikey was highlighting on "He's family!" as a reason to redeem him, the later episodes would focus on Baron Draxum discovering himself to change while the Turtle family also learns to forgive him.
THough considering the cut episode lines...
I would've like it if the writers made an episode of Mikey having to learn the cold hard truth that, no one is obligated to forgive and forget what Baron Draxum did ( Leo, and ESPECIALLY Splinter deserve better, when Mikey dismissed their displeasure towards Draxum for hurting them ( No hate on Mikey, but he was...not in the right for that ) ). Especially outside of the family.
Like, we have never seen what the victims' life is like ( besides Bullhop ) when they we're bitten by the Oozesquitoes. They're either struggling through life, getting hunted down by the Men in Black, or they're family and friends abandon nor doesn't recognize them for being different.
Either way, I would've like it if Baron EARNED his Redemption Arc by actually making work and effort for it. His victims may either befriend, not want to be allies nor friend, forgive or never forgive. Again, he's not obligated to be forgiven, and accepting that fact and actually see that he was in the wrong would count as a Redemption Arc. Cause the episode with Mikey bringing Baron along when Splinter doesn't want him around was...😬..Baron doesn't act, nor behave that he's fully changed and learned his lesson, until Splinter have to thank him for 'If I hadn't been mutated nor get held hostage by you, I wouldn't have a family' which is...YIKES..
Not a well executed Redemption Arc.
Honestly I think Hunter's redemption arc has been fine. Lilith's though... that was basically just the seaso finale. Hunter got quite awhile where he honestly struggled more than he probably should have to try and reconsile his morality with his loyalty. You could see cracks forming in annoyingly strong armor of cult-style indoctrination
And I don't think we can say he was rushed when all of the season 2 HAD to be rushed :( hunter is a really good character for the time he got to be in screen
I also don’t think he was ever rlly a villain in the way that needed to be redeemed. He was never bad, he just followed bad people. His arc was realizing Belos is evil
He’s just as much a victim of Belos as the rest of the boiling isles- and his arc isn’t over as seen with his interactions w belos from the special
O absolutly is just that he was put in the video like there was some problem woth his "redempion" arc, everyone is such an interesting character in special belos and hunter
My main gripe with Hunter’s arc is just that it went so fast after Hollow Mind. But considering the circumstances his redemption arc was definitely decent and there was effort put into it.
I've got pretty strong rose-colored glasses for Steven Universe - when I watched it, the overly wholesome conflict resolution and exploration of emotional wellness came at a time where that was something I really needed in my life. But you've nailed down the thing I've never quite been able to describe about why the ending of the series felt so off to me - the diamonds' redemptions weren't earned. We were shown that Blue Diamond was deeply grieving Pink's shattering and received several hints that over time, this caused her to start rethinking her life up to that point (beginning to work to preserve organic life in Pink's memory, deciding not to shatter innocent gems that had nothing to do with Pink's death simply because they were the same cut, questioning if there was a worthwhile purpose to the colonization efforts). In an alternate timeline, the writers may have been able to give Blue some sort of satisfying path to start trying to earn a redemption, but Yellow and White were fully antagonists right up to the last 15 minutes of the entire freaking series.
I don't really remember it all too well, but I remember that I liked the scene where blue got yellow over to her side close to the end. While yellow was nowhere near as close to a satisfying redemption as blue was, I like the idea of yellow choosing to side with the sister she loves over the sister she fears. There would've been potential to actually redeem yellow via her connection to blue but in contrast to white... if they had just had the guts to make white irredeemable.
@@corhydrae3238 The trick being, as pointed out in the video, a character who has actively and willingly participated in a genocide should not be an easy character to forgive or redeem. If Blue had gotten slightly more characterization and had her struggle with her own morals outright shown instead of just hinted at, she may have earned a chance to begin redeeming herself. Not a full redemption, mind you, but just to have ended the series at the start of a character arc where she was starting on that path. Yellow, *maybe* could've gotten written in on the good guys' side at the end, but definitely in a way that was abrasive and clear she still had a long way to go before she'd be buddy-buddy with anyone.
IMO, given some of the great lessons about emotional health and maturity in the show, a huge missed opportunity to not include "sometimes, forgiveness is a process that can take a very long time" and "sometimes, it's okay to cut ties with/not forgive someone who's caused a lot of pain" among its talking points.
@@paperip1996 Fun Fact: Rebecca Super said the Steven Universe was inspired by the Simpsons and Revolutionary Girl Utena. They are good shows, BUT they do not mix well together.
Thing is that the Diamonds weren't redeemed at that point.
The Diamonds were humbled by Steven's words and actions, and forgiven by him on the condition that they helped to undo their damage. He still holds resentment towards them at the end, but he doesn't want to live hating, so he chooses the kinder path which is simultaneously the most net-positive because the Diamonds are eager to help him instead of antagonizing him over their interstellar-political views.
Like if you are a vegan you don't antagonize your new found uncle, owner of livestock of the town, who is paying your half-brother's chemo on your behalf.
@@tarnw3301 at least there’s that.
Honestly Rebecca Sugar is just lucky that the awful ending of the Sardonyx arc was overshadowed by what came directly before (the introduction of the fusion and the episode that focused a lot on Ruby and Sapphire), and what came directly after (the entire Peridot redemption arc and the episode focusing on how Ruby and Sapphire got together). Friend Ship was just yikes on a bike all around.
Fun Fact: Rebecca Super said the Steven Universe was inspired by the Simpsons and Revolutionary Girl Utena. They are good show, BUT they do not mix well together.
@@orangeslash1667 the Simpsons? does she mean like the over abundance of slice-of-life episodes? other than that I do not see the comparison at all?
@@jefferyandbob3137 Yes, the other comparison is that they are so long!!!!!
The only explanation I can think of for why this arc even exists is it was made with the idea in mind that fusion represents all types of relationships, and the Sardonyx arc was supposed to be comparable to like, using a friend to make yourself look better or making up excuses so your friend can spend more time with you (which can still be used in a sexual context if you think about it) But since the writers did a very very poor job of not associating fusion with sex (probably not helped by the fandom making jokes how Garnet is just Ruby and Sapphire in a constant state of making out) then you get takes like what Lily said in the video.🤢
Sugar’s a coward for not killing the Diamonds or Spinel
I think Hunter definitely falls into a good arc because he never was even evil, as shown in the sport episode even while he's still brainwashed he's still caring. He even protects Luz before he learns of any of Belos' actions. He's a good hearted person who's manipulated into believing something bad is good, his arc is learning how things work and changing his world view to match it.
You can only be redeemed for so much. I think zuko does so well because from the first few episodes you already see him figuring out his internal stuff. He makes mistakes, he is young, he puts his trust in the wrong person (his dad), and he tries to be honorable and noble but doesnt know what is fully right and wrong. He struggled with it from the start and other characters showed more evil that he would turn against and disagree with. The entire story is him finding what right and wrong is. He ends up finding it.
Then in other stories are often the worst people imagined becoming fixed after someone is like "hey stop guys"
I think an aspect that gets really fucked over in redemption arcs, is the forgiveness part. So many stories take an all or nothing approach and have the character getting better and just automatically becoming part of the main group, or friends with the characters they've hurt.
It reminds me of the mentality that nice guys have about earning sex. For the redeemed character, it just a given that people will forgive them, because they're a good person now. They've 'earned it'.
For example, lots of people forgive and try to empathise with their abusers or attackers as part of their own personal journey and healing, but they still want to see that person punished, go to prison, or cut them completely out of their life. I would love it if more characters had a redemption arc where they weren't forgiven, and now they just have to live with that. Or some people forgive them and want to rebuild, while others never want to see them again. There are so many different ways to approach it instead of this one size fits all mentality
Forgiveness and relationship rebuilding shouldn't be an automatic part of the redemption arc, because it belongs to people they hurt. It needs to be part of those people's arcs, their journeys.
One of the most important parts about redemption is recognizing that the people you hurt have no obligation to forgive you.
The people you've hurt might not forgive you for what you've done, and that's okay.
I think a common problem when it comes to writing is that people don't know the difference between a redemption arc and a tragic backstory. You can give a villain a tragic backstory, and that might explain why they're a villain, but it doesn't always justify the actions of the villain. However, time and time again, when a writer wants a character to turn good, they just flash their backstory about how they loved their mom, and she died in a fire at the puppy shelter while dad did nothing to save her, and the show/book/game is like, "Don't be mad. They're sad and had a reason for being sad. Ignore the part where they wore a person's skull like an athletic cup."
The problem I have with a lot of people discussing Redemption Arcs is that they keep confusing redemption for _penance._
People don’t want characters to genuinely try to be better people, they want characters to eternally feel bad for bad things they’ve done, no matter how many good things they’ve done afterwards.
If the character isn’t in a permanent state of self-inflicting deprecation over their own misdeeds, people take that to mean that the character in question isn’t actually ‘sorry’ or that they haven’t actually ‘learned anything’.
That's what I feel like watching the Catra "redemption"- she doesn't do anything that isn't either extremely self-deprecating or self-sacrificing (which is ironic considering she later gives Aurora shit for the same reason) through the last season. She is just being sad.
I feel like her redemption could have worked if we gotten what we got last season in season prior and had her actually do good shit in the end- like be proactive and use her knowlege of the Horde and Hordak to tear it down from the inside. Like feeling bad about having been a bad person doesn't make someone better. The self-inflicted suffering doesn't create better people, actually self-hatred is catalysis for a lot of worst behavior.
@@thedesensitizedsympathizer5307 Yeah, it's like with family how sometimes they'll keep bringing up that one incident where you did something super bad as a child and will keep it hanging over your head for as long as you live. Because they want you to feel eternally bad/embarrissed about it. "Oh Sera, remember that time you broke the plate your grandmother gave me before she passed away, sure you were only three and didn't know how much senntimental value it had. But I'm going to bring it up anyway, because I want you to remember something you probably don't remember."
@@ZundelArt i think the thing is that Catra didn't believe she deserved to be better (she seems to conflate being a better person with being happy). she thinks that for Adora which is why she wants her to stop sacrificing herself but i always understood Catra to be sad because she didn't think she deserved happiness. she eventually thought the rebellion deserved to win and that horde prime deserved to lose but I think it took her until nearly the end of the series to realize that she can have a shot at that and even then, it can still be argued she doesn't believe it. but yeah I agree, her feeling bad didn't make her better and I could easily see the self hatred (along with others' push for heavy punishment) push her back into bad behavior. overall rehabilitation and therapy are grossly under desired when it comes to bad people (and that's not to say that there aren't people here and there that don't want to change for any reason ever)
@@47ratsinahoodie I do think what you're saying is true but I look at it ledd from "is it realistic for a person to act that way" because, to be honest, people can act in all sorts if weird ways.
What I do not like is the fact that by the end we end up with not a very satisfying story of redemption- Catra despite having spent over half of the show being horribly violent, spends one whole season in depression (which I wouldn't mind as much if it would be just a small part of her redemption arc) and then she is redeemed and we must assume she continued to work on herself offscreen after the end of the show.
It would just be great for Catra to have another season after picking herself up dedicated to fighting on the good guy team, and doing it not for Adora but because she wants to and wants to do good by people.
I loved redeemed Catra hanging with the squad and I wish we could have gotten more of that Catra.
Fully agreed. Now let me ask you: Do you think most DB fans think Vegeta spends every waking moment of his happy life, in his mansion, with wife and kids...just HATING himself for all the things he did and the billions of innocents he killed before he went to Earth?
Because if the answer is no, then there you have one of the biggest examples of this, and one of the most hypocritical fanbases, not covered in this video.
"Everyone wants to be Daryl Davis just without the risk to their personal safety." This line goes so hard like for real. Everyone wants other people to see from their perspective but barely anyone wants to make the effort to connect and see why those other people choose the other way in the first place.
While I didnt really get into Batwoman, I did like how they showed this whole 'I can fix the villain' gets you nothing but unnecessary casualties. So while Batwoman lets the villain, Alice, off easy a lot because its her sister, she eventually is forced to some to terms with the fact she cant save her at the expense of the people of Gotham...Until next episode when she's back to wanting to redeem her
Andy Mayo could've been the one moment in the show where Greg or garnet could've told Steven "Kid, as big as a heart you've got sometimes people don't want to change. Sometimes the only ones that can change them are themselves but at least you've tried." That could've fixed so much and we wouldn't have had that really bad finale where they redeemed the diamonds especially white diamond.
My favorite part about riku's redemption is near the end of 2. When everyone thinks Xemnas is dead and the portal back home is open, riku is dejected and doesn't think he can return home due to what he's done, He says "How am I going to face everyone?"
Sora Responds in a perfect way: "Like this!" and making a silly face. Riku laughs, and is moved to go back home, he just got the one answer he needs, Sora takes no time to let him know that nobody will blame him and will welcome him back right then and there, screw the past, live in the present and come back home. Sora didn't need to say anything else, just a quick cheer up and he knows Riku's going to be okay.
Makes the Speech Riku gives to Sora in 3 all the more sweet.
Riku's sad? Sora makes him laugh. Sora's Sad? Riku Makes sure Sora knows he's loved.
I feel like the scene in the realm of darkness at the end of 2 also adds to that, since it gives Sora and Riku a chance to talk things out.
something I loved in 3 is that Riku's weapon resembles a car key, a visible sign of his maturity from a childish rival to a proper warrior of light
When you showed the clip of white diamond's "defeat" I felt my face burning. Like I was genuinely, unironically about to catch fire from how cringe inducing that was. I have never experienced that sensation before in my life and I plan not to feel it again. How do you make a villain's defeat/redemption scene so embarassing it is physically painful?
Zuko's arc is so great, one of the best in TV for children, as it respects both the characters, its own world, and the audience watching it.
I kinda want to see more tales about failed redemptions as well. Character that make an earnest attempt at trying to redeem themselves, but ultimately fail for whatever reason. Whether it be them unable to shake the temptations of their past, a tragedy that undoes all the progress that they have made, or them learning that their acts were so evil that there is no real coming back from them. Just like redemption arcs are important to teach people that not everyone is forever lost in the darkness, a failed redemption arc is important to show people that not everyone can be saved either. Especially if you put the two story lines side by side and put the work into both of them. Then the redemption becomes more impressive and meaningful, and the failed arc becomes all the more tragic.
Have you seen Bojack Horseman? I think that fits quite well for the titular character in season 6. He does try and he does suceed on bettering himself(eventually) for a bit, but his own past actions and the consequences those have had on people are still equally as real and some of the relationships he values the most were unknowing to the true extent of his misdeeds and when his actions come to light they end cutting contact with him which is the primary trigger for him to engage in his prior self destructive behavior.
The first thing that came to mind was Bed Man from Guilty Gear.
He was manipulated by a powerful entity and made to belive he will remake the human world but with out pain and suffering, he genuinely believed all the pain he himself caused was justified because in the end he will redeem himself when making the new world, he remember the full name and appearance of every single person he has killed just to give them new life in the new world, and most importantly for him, he wants to make the new world just to see his sister.
In the end, when he is about to die, the entity reveals to them that the new world will not have any human, that all the pain he caused was meaningless, that it doesn't matter if had good intentions in the end, he was just another source of pain in this wretched world.
And he attempts a final redemption, with all of his remaining strength he tries to kill the Entity, and he comes close to, but in the end he dies before he is able to.
He failed in everything he tried to do.
Season 2 of Raising Zion. The villain from the 1st season tries to redeem himself. He makes an effort but no one trusts him due to, you know, the murdering he did. He gives up at the end of season 2. I always thought while his attempt was genuine he gave up too quickly. Like dude, you were a serial killer, did you really think a few weeks would be enough for your last victim to forgive you for barely failing to kill her own son in front of her??
Plugging in with another example: the entire through plot of Better Call Saul - Jimmy does change his ways and makes the right decision but at that point everything is so far gone that it can't end in anything other than a tragedy.
Moral Orel had a failed redemption arc for Orel's father, Clay, where the series does show his traumatic upbringing when he was child, but it's never used to justify Clay's actions and abuse towards Orel. Even when Orel tries to find some reason to forgive Clay, after all the abuse he endured, he realizes that he simply can't find any redeeming qualities about him and he distances himself from Clay
You've really opened my eyes to a lot of writing techniques and how a lot tropes work. I wanted to take a minute to tell you: Thank you.
I feel like the most dangerous thing about redeeming the villain in children's shows is that there's a point where it's literally just teaching a kid a bad dangerous idea.
A literal fascist is not someone you can just talk out of being a genocidal maniac, and the fact that more than one children's show is trying to push that as a message is crazy.
And teaching children if they try hard enough, they can convince the dangerous, violent, abusive person (be it emotional or physical violence) in their life to be nice instead is just dangerous. It just is.
Talk it out is for playground squabbles over what fictional character would win in a fight. Not about crazy people who want to commit ethnic cleansing, or people you love intentionally hurting you.
It's like an extension of the same bad idea that a bunch of old romance movies had of a "good girl" falling in love with the "bad boy" and that her love magically made him not be a jackass anymore. NO. Just no.
No one's love can magically fix someone who has zero interest, desire, or reason to change. Some people are bad, and maybe they're bad because of a shit past, or indoctrination into a hateful ideology, or whatever other reason they wanna attribute their behavior to.
The reasons are all irrelevant, because a great deal of the time it's just better for you to cut them out of your life if you can, or help the authorities put them behind bars if you have to.
Just like how an addict has to choose to get clean, a bad person has to choose to reform themselves on their own. Because a bad person is just another type of addict. They're addicted to whatever it is they get from their behavior. Be it authority, the feeling of superiority, the feeling of power, literal power over another person, approval from those who share their bigotry.
You cannot change them without them wanting it for themselves, more than whatever it is they're getting out of their bad behavior.
This makes me think of two “redemption” arcs in a game I like where one character got a friendship speech which supposedly turned them around but they were lying about changing their mind and never intended to do so. And another character who got a suggestion to change from someone else and tried to change for the better entirely by themselves after hearing that but kept slipping back into their old mindset.
**applauds** Well said!
I feel you're very wrong at points, because Steven fought often to prove his point.
He forced his will onto others with violence, addicts can choose to get clean but without help or a way to get clean they can't. Gem society has been doing it for effectively forever. They had no choice till Rose and even more with Steven.
There's also tge fact that there are some characters that don't need a redemption arc. Riku needed to be redeemed, Zuko needed to be redeemed but why The Diamonds. Three colonizers who subjugate and experiment other races needed to be redeemed? Maybe they could've redeemed Blue and Yellow but why White Diamond? They couldn't just keep her evil? That would be like redeeming Fire Lord Ozai.
Zukos redemption was done so well, it wasn’t about a bad person doing things for bad reasons, it was a conflicted person doing what they could in a bad situation. The key to redemption is that the person cant just be murdering a bunch of people one minute and suddenly be forgiven when they are sorry. If they killed someone, they should be punished and have that weigh on them for the rest of their time.
Putting the way character arcs are handled next to fetish stuff made a feature you didn’t touch on click for me. When you’re doing humiliation or anything else edgy in the bedroom, you can actually go hard on the humiliation and shame and pain, and then with the use of one word can snap it into being kind and supportive.
The bad redemption arcs are just the protagonist using the safeword to get aftercare
Arguably a good Redemption Arc - even if done by multiple writers - look at King Dedede from the kirby games. Over just about ALL of them you see Dedede start as a bully who doesn't care about his subjects or anyone underneath him; that might makes right, to a self-sacrificing friend for Kirby who cares about his subjects; and values friendship. An actual slow change over many years to be a better person. All thanks to Kirby.
"It works when it's done well!"
Can you name one thing that doesn't work when done well?
Rare steak
@@watchm4ker Also medium rare steak
A bad idea in the first place?
In storytelling? I can name a few. Rape as a start of a romantic relationship, sexual assault as a joke, consciously normalizing реdорhіlіа... Things that are a horrible idea to begin with.
@@annajung1234 I’d call those examples of things that are almost impossible to do well
There is a term for the edgy villain boy who sad and turns good. They're called Sad but Bad boys. They're often seen when showrunners try to make a Zuko clone but only use writing of a Tumblr sexyman fanfic
I think one thing that is often forgotten about redemption arcs by writers is that,
the more heinous the crimes are they commited, the more time, and the harder they have to try in order to be believably redeemed. Which itself wouldn't be a problem BUT, that would result in characters that are going to be boring given that they will have to try so hard to be good, that they turn into a just a paragon over time in order to compensate. Which then can get boring really quick. The reality is, its much more interesting to see how someone we think "could" be use handles themselves commiting crimes because they were misguided and then getting on the right path but potentially getting a wider understanding of the world then they had before being "uncorrupted". Though I fear that, this too would be something that can be reduced mostly to our curiosity of wanting to be able to be redeemed. Just once I want to see a show where a character tries to get redeemed but for episodes on end can't join the protagonists since they don't trust him at all. Because in real life, people will not trust you for a long time, saying sorry is unfortunatly often not how you mend a relationship, or the world for that matter.
Then I reccomend watching Digimon Tamers and paying attention to Impmon's arc, because that's exactly what you're asking for. There's even a TH-cam video about why Impmon has such a good character arc if you don't have the time for a full anime.
@@SoulHero7 well... Actually I'm a huge fan of Digimon tamers and yes impmons arc is one of the reasons for it
What I like a lot about Sasha's redemption story from Amphibia cartoon is that she is not suddenly redeemed like a lot of redeemed villains/jerks that I have seen recently from other shows. She has slow redemption arcs before finally becoming a hero in Season 3. It helps also that she still remains the same tough girl as she was before her full redemption in Season 3.
What is good about Sasha's redemption story is that it goes back and forth between being good and relapsing into bad tendencies several times before finally making the decision to improve for the better. It is a clever way to improve a character than the villain who does bad decision after bad decision and then at the last second gets to become good in order to make the heroes more virtuous by redeeming the villain.
I'm glad I didn't get TOO invested in SU's story.
Thinking about it now, they spent seasons building up the mystery of the Diamonds. I thought that once they reached Homeworld, the show would get serious and spend a season exploring the world's history and culture and start a rebellion with the gems they met along the way. But nope, we got the most hamfisted and rushed final act imaginable.
Redemption arcs require WORK. Like actual doing redemption. You have to list all the things to do and make it believable.
So much lazy...
@@eashgirl2125 Writers need to realize that sympathy isn't the only way to make a villain interesting. Another trope is that can be used is Fallen Hero, where a nice person goes through a tragic event and becomes a darker character. Sensui from (YuYu Hakusko) is a great example.
@Eashgirl2 Or end up getting the story cut short without good communication about the length of the remaining show, tho case by case.
A Silent Voice does “redemption” journey perfectly. Nothing about it was simple, and involved someone who actually regrets their actions and struggles to forgive themselves.
I know you probably just wanted to cover the two ends of the bad redemption arc spectrum in this video by going over only two examples (bigoted uncle and genocidal dictators) to get your point across, but I was kinda hoping you’d go more in depth with how badly the Owl House crew handled Lilith’s “arc”, because she has always been such a pathetic character to me.
Like, my frustration with Hunter was more with how we could have had a really fun character and they just couldn’t commit to that because they wanted to make him more important for some reason. His presence is now more obnoxious than anything. But I can at least get why people (in the show) accepted him so quickly.
What Lilith did to Eda still makes my blood boil, but what really got my goat was how nearly everyone in the fandom was jumping over the weirdest hurdles to make excuses for her. I actually came across someone who claimed that Eda getting cursed was well deserved because she was always mean to her sister. Like, Jesus tap dancing Christ
Now I would give Lilith credit for taking on half of the curse at the end of season 1, but rewatching that season with full knowledge of how we got to that point at all made her look even worse to me. Because she was introduced as a very smug insecure woman who had the gall to openly make fun of her sister for a condition SHE caused. She knew for years that her sister was living with a debilitating illness and, to her own knowledge, was doing it alone. But instead of reaching out to her, or coming clean about it in any of the 20 years they’ve been living apart from each other, she chose to hunt her down like a criminal in hopes that the person who’s been making her sister’s life even more difficult would somehow clean up HER mess.
That second witches duel that they had cemented that if it weren’t for Lilith’s little outburst she would have never confessed to Eda, and that if it were up to her, no one would ever learn that the reason her baby sister was suffering for so long was because Lilith was being petty and cowardly.
It’s not the fact that she did it (I get it, kids can be dumb and impulsive), it’s the fact that she took so damn long to do anything substantial about it.
I guess since they were dead set on redeeming her anyway,I really wanted her to get the Sunset Shimmer treatment in season 2. Where everyone (except Hooty and maybe King) would give her the cold shoulder for a little while, especially Luz. Hell they could have had Eda and Lilith slowly rekindle their sisterly relationship, with the kicker being that Eda would never forgive Lilith for abandoning her and Lilith learning that it would not be her place to ask her to do so.
But no, they just forgave her no problem. And all Lilith does for the first half of the second season is whine about how she lost everything she used to be (and be Hooty’s new fuck buddy), but honestly she was a joke from the start.
This is something that I’ve personally noticed most modern cartoon redemption arcs fail to do aside from not delegating important time for the characters in question to do the work to change. It’s that their wrongdoings (what they are being redeemed for) are not treated with the severity that it should be by the writers.
@@nevaehhamilton3493 Well that's because Steven Universe has so many problems that explaining anything that is wrong with it is not easy.
I just got to say I absolutely love how much you understand Riku's arc.
It's sad that, Steven DID an amazing redemption arc with Peridot, but the redemption arc with the diamonds was really rushed and didn't really work
I am actually taking notes right now. For whenever I write a redemption arc.
“Lily, that’s three things” “Well I like to go above and beyond” I’ve been living by this mindset without knowing it my entire life especially when being petty 😅
Ok, so I’ve written a decent amount of fan fiction and some original fiction, and this video just reassured me that every character who gets a redemption arc NEEDS to have that be the plan from the very start. When I started planning out characters and arcs for my last writing project, the two characters who were pinned down to swap sides midway through were decided on before I wrote a single scene with either of them.
Hell, Isa (an OC, not the KH character) had a whole arc that ended with her turning herself in to the authorities after she had a change of heart midway through the story. She always accepted the weight of the crimes she had committed (none of which were as bad as anything the Diamond Authority did) and most of her actual arc through the story was spent deprogramming her of her death wish instead of justifying the terrorism which she knowingly and intentionally committed. She didn’t change sides because she was seduced by the hero, she had always intended to stick a knife in the villain’s back and had gotten strung along for a decade by her hatred of the systems in place and got used by a nihilistic sociopath who made her feel like she wasn’t alone.
Compared to some of these “snapshot redemptions”, that puts a surprising amount of skepticism in me about how much time people spend planning their stories.
It's not about planning it from the start. It's about TAKING THE TIME and PUTTING IN THE EFFORT and NOT LETTING YOUR CLIT DO THE WRITING!
Admittedly it makes it easier to redeem a character if you prepare for it from the start, such as by giving them redeeming qualities and making sure that their misdeeds aren't too heinous. For example, Riku and Zuko were both written differently from conventional villains, all the way from the start. I don't think it's an absolute requirement, but setting it up that way probably reduces the time you need to spend on the redemption arc later, and is especially helpful if the redeemed villain is going to end up taking a central role as one of the heroes after their redemption.
@@platinumdragon3007 I agree. Planning does make it easier to redeem a character. If you decided to redeem a character with no good qualities, it’ll be hard for both the other characters and the reader/watcher to accept them. I do agree that having some good qualities in that redeemed character or having them do unconventional bad guy stuff will make it easier to accept their change when the arc begins.
Someone should really use the shitty no arc redemption arc trope for a really good twist villain. Trick people into thinking you're a bad writer.
I really like that you took the time to call out people who fantasize about real serial killers like they’re fictional characters and not, you know, actual psychopaths that have done downright horrendous things to innocent people. I wasn’t expecting it and it made me happy :)
My personal favorite villain redemption from a kid's show is Impmon from Digimon Tamers. As a villain, he murders a digimon in front of its own human child (a girl named Jeri) which traumatizes that kid for the rest of the season. And when he comes to regret his actions and decides to become good...and the heroes reject him. And he doesn't expect them to forgive him anyway.
All he cares about is saving Jeri, the girl he hurt. The scene where he tries to get her to take his hand to escape and Jeri refuses him despite all the tortue she's currently going through? Heartwrenching. The idea of someone trying to be a good guy, being rejected by their peers, ultimately failing to do their "one good deed" of redemption but still continuing to try to be a better person? THAT's something that sticks with you.
Sunset is just a really well-made and solid character. She's pretty much the only reason why Equestria Girls is fun to watch along with the songs and villians.
I love her I was obsessed with her as a child her and starlights redemption arc I like because starlights wasn’t rushed, it took her a whole season to finally stop feeling so guilty for what she did and grow more
I seriously never understood the "You beat me up, so I'm your friend now" mentality. Sure, sometimes it can work like that. At least in terms of respect. With certain characterizations. But sometimes they completely skip the steps of adjusting to not being out for themselves anymore, or getting to the point where they even WANT to change.
RWBY has a lot of issues, especially I more recent volumes. but I do love 2 things:
1) we see emerald doubt her allegiance for volumes, even if it wasn't voiced out loud until later because of fear
2) we see the power of friendship speach be used to try and persuade Raven and fail, she's just just like "words? OK, here's fire, bye"
I like what Kipo did, they didn't "redeem" their villains per se. Spoilers ahead: one dies by sacrifice, while still being imprisoned and being watched closely by the team and the community, they don't get a "I forgive you" except from the main protagonist iirc. Another villain is giving a second chance at not being a bigot, and not only there is hesitation between the team of heroes, but the villain actually refuses, and prefers to fall into the void, forever irredeemed.
They should have had a scene where kipo realized that if she hadnt tried to redeam the racist villian then the much more coolerer monke villian wouldnt have died
One excellent example of a well done redemption arc was missed. The movie Megamind was entirely a redemption arc.
Zuko’s redemption arc is him coming to terms with the fact that he doesn’t need to be redeemed, he was never a disgrace to begin with.
My favorite type of "redemption" isnt even redemption, but a paragonal villain realizing theyre wrong and fixing it
That is redemption dummy
This video often gets me to think about prince trellis from the Amulet book series. He reminds me of Zuko in a lot of ways.
Book 1: is antagonistic.
Book 2: is shown to be resentful of his father (the elf king) and betrays him by leaving
Book 3: is a part of the main cast, works with the hero who is hesitant to trust him.
By book six, he is a noble hero, working to fight his father’s influence. I think he is what avatar fans think Zuko’s story is.
Rushed development often feels unearned because if the character doesn’t have to work to better themselves, then it doesn’t make sense for them to have been flawed in the first place so if you want your character to grow as a person, they have to earn it and can’t just have one Epiphany and be suddenly different. Personal growth takes effort and time you can’t just flip a switch.
I agree with you, I despise it when the 'arc' is skipped and villains just decide they are the good guys just like that, Riku, Zuko, and Peridot were done well
This is probably my favorite out of all your videos. Both because I’m a sucker for a good redemption arc and for how you explained what makes it actually good and how redemptions like the diamonds and Catra’s fail in being one.
The biggest problem with most of those failed Redemption Arcs is that they never really cared to understand the villain's motives to begin with. Without understanding what's wrong, there's no way to understand how to make it right, how to walk back from that extreme. Without that understanding, even an attempt to write such a thing will feel fake and bogus. Most don't even attempt to write it, since they don't understand the path.
Lazy writing makes bad villains and worse redemption.
steven universe even has a villain that teaches a lesson about everyone being able to change but not wanting to, an irredeemable villain.... and it's kevin, the highschooler.
Odd to think but I feel like Vegeta in DBZ was the most realistic of what should happen in these 'Evil guy switches sides while undergoing no actual change' scenarios. He basically is still an evil shithead until his sacrifice in Buu Arc and he keeps killing/hurting and causing mayhem for everyone and he's canonically damned to hell. You can't exactly 'get over' of an entire lifetime and culture of genocidal power thirst in a day.
True dude was still evil for years
@@BlueBlazeKing in the super manga vegeta even tries to apologize to nemakians
Exactly. Vegeta initially only works with the heroes to defeat a common foe. He's not a good person and even kills innocent people during the Freeza saga, but because freeza is a common threat they work together.
After that he mostly sides with the heroes simply because he has nothing else to do. He's not part of the Freeza force anymore, his species is mostly gone with it's only other known survivior at the tiem on earth, and his only remaining life goal is surpassing Goku. So he stays on Earth to give him the best chance of eventually surpassing Goku.
It's only by slowly growing to love Bulma and Trunks he comes to truely change and the Buu Saga was where that all exploded and he goes through a crisis with who he was versus who he became. Part of his resents him losing himself and becoming happy with a simple, mundane life and when he finally resolves that issue and decides the life of his family matters most he makes a choice to give up everything for them rather than himself.
Oh I've been waiting a long time for this one
Who the hell is this person, how did they end up in my recommended list, and why are they so funny? Loved the video, gotta check out more of your content.
Funny thing I realised is that most good redemption stories are actually with child characters, Riku is a child in KH1 and CoM, Hunter is a child, Zuko is a child as much as the fandom tries to act like he’s not. This is probably because kids change their opinions on things much faster and easier then your racist uncle Andy could because people at that age are much more stubborn and those redemptions usually take longer in fiction because of that
Love the music you used for the last section. Reminds me of my childhood, cause those werey favorite games growing up. It also sounds so well for the context.
This video explains my frustrations with stories sometimes. Like yeah, I know it's tedious to write an entire arc sometimes but that doesn't justify skipping everything.
Zuko will always be the gold standard of how to do a redemption arc. Part of what makes Zuko's character arc compelling is that he just as a main character as Aang. Even if the show is called "Avatar The Last Airbender", the show also spends time to flesh out and give spotlight to other important characters even the antagonists (well maybe some are more favored than others but a lot of characters still stand out). There are multiple moments or episodes that focus on Zuko, fleshing him out as a character, and his ideals being challenged which is all the more reason what made his gradually built-up development in book 3 impactful.
The secret to Zuko is his arc isn't redemption, it's recovery.
I do appreciate you calling me sexy stranger as well as voicing over my questions since I have issues with a stutter.
love the new video format with moving pictures, don't know if this has been done before but I just notice it and still remember the video in regards about why the adagio doesn't have an redemption arc
0:42 "Sure redemption arcs work well when they're done well, so why aren't they ever done well"
I started binge watching your stuff for advice & how to improve, but I stayed bc you're just so funny. That line legit got a laugh out of me xD
Vegeta was a decent one as well. Starts off blowing up planets and working for frieza. Even kills Nappa and seriously wounds a lot of people. Then on namek he’s not a hero by any means, but he has to work with the heroes to beat the bigger evil guy. His goal is still to wish for immortality and kill goku. Then in the cell saga sure he’s on the hero team but he’s kind of an asshole about it and he’s the whole reason cell got his perfect form. Then in the Majin saga he has an identity crisis because he has begun to settle down and become good, and finally decides he’s okay with that in the end and fully comes over to the good guy team. His arc takes all of dragon ball z and it feels like it’s deserved.
Getting outdome by dragon ball z at storytelling is crazy
This reminds me how terrible the redemption arc with Namaari in Raya and the Last Dragon. Yes, all is forgiven when the person who destroyed the world tried to fix it because it could also save her ass anyway. The entirety of the film was just gaslighting the main character
Animes : "we'll ignore this."
yeah most anime don't skip redemption arcs,fruits basket did a great job on it
Seems writers are confusing redemption arcs with heel-face turns: an action based on new information that opposes their prior actions. (My favorite example of this trope is Shadow from SA2. He was going to "Throw It All Away" but immediately turns around when he remembers Maria's dieing words.) This sudden change of character goals is surprising, which is the point, but could be used to kickstart a redemption arc.
Shadow was doing all for Maria. He respects her too much and tried to destroy everything as vengeance, but after realizing that it wasn't this that she wanted he just got all: "I need to save the world she wanted to live on" he doesn't actually like Earth and humanity, he loves Maria and only her so if this planet happens to be important to her he'll defend it.
He did changed a lot afterwards, if you played Sonic 06 (even if you hated) you can see how much he changed as a person.
"If the world will stay against me I'll fight like I always had"
@@cotocoyerakson8195 Exactly which is why Shadow's redemption overall works. He doesn't just magically become a good person, he simply realizes his mistake in his origional motivation and corrects it. He's still the same person doing things for the same reason.
So there's this anime called Trigun where the main character Vash has this belief that anyone can be redeemed and doesn't want to kill anyone and the big question the anime asks is "Is this a character strength or a character flaw". Most shows normally take one side or another, either the hero refuses to kill anyone and this is shown to be their greatest strength or the hero kills everyone who looks at them weirdly and the writer bends over backward to justify this revenge-filled psycho fantasy while unironically ignoring the argument that the hero is not that much better than the villain. However, in Trigun both arguments are brought up and treated fairly. Vash himself constantly questions whether or not his belief is the right course of action and he does ultimately have to kill someone for the greater good which in itself has consequences for the character. It's really well done and it's a shame we don't see that more.
Was hoping someone would point out Trigun, great series.
Another, perhaps a very odd one, would of GinTama. Yes its a comedy, fourth-wall breaking, gag/slice of life manga...but it showcases the reality of "people" be they villains, bystanders, or heroes in a way that few other manga ever do.
@@RallasterAsuremen OH you're right! GinTama is also a great example of this! It's an interesting take on redemption as characters often have to learn to forgive others for past wrongs which in itself is challenging, especially when the person isn't even actively trying to earn your specific forgiveness. They're just trying to live their life as a better person which really does frame the morality question of forgiveness in a whole new light.
Another interesting show to talk about here, Fresh Prince of Bel Air. The show takes a bold direction with Will's father, who abandoned Will at a young age, and after coming back in his life is abandoning him again. Will's uncle Phil tries talk no justus on him and in a lesser show that would have worked. Will's father would have been "redeemed" or on the path of redemption, having seen the light and turned good with just a well written argument.
But the show doesn't flinch, Will's father refuses to listen to Uncle Phil, hell he even admits to an extent that what he's doing is wrong but in his mind, he's making the right choice and no one can convince him otherwise. This gives us one of the best Sitcom scenes in television as Will realizes his father will never be redeemed or the father Will deserves. All writers should take note of this moment because it shows that not every character can be redeemed, especially when they don't even think they're wrong. It's also a good lesson to teach audiences that you won't be able to talk everyone down.
I despise the trend of "all main characters forgive them at the same time and amount" and I enjoyed Sunset Shimmer not being trusted even if they were giving her another chance. They each had different stages of forgiveness.
Too many shows just have everything forgiven and moved past when that's not how healing works.
Like many other things in life, redemption is not given... it's earned.
me when a sory yada yada's over the arc: "and nothing can go wrong!"
"OH NO IT ALL WENT WRONG!!"
The last redemption arc I think was actually handled well was Hugo/Scarlemagne from Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts. Mainly cause it took half a season to show he had the potential, and then an entire season to earn it.
How about Sasha Waybright from Amphibia?
They should do more "villain" stories like Finn and his father Martin. In the end, Finn accepts that his father will never change and decides to distance himself from him. Sometimes it's better to walk away rather than harm yourself by trying to change someone who doesn't want to change.
Garnet post season 1 was really just a slap in the face. She went from the "Everything is going to be all right, I'm here now" character to another side character, ironically in a show where having steven shape shift into a suddenly very strong very capable character would've helped the narrative. They even had it in the movie where garnet refusing was treated as a big scale tipping moment as she proceeds to casually hold her own with the big bad, but thats about all we get of that again before she's put back in her "Only useful for fusion exposition" box.
Honestly, even though you probably won't cover it, I'm curious about your thoughts on Endeavors redemption arc from My Hero Academia. He's an example of a character who is dislikable but still compelling and interesting. He abuses his family for his own selfish goal of surpassing All Might the no. 1 hero, but when All might retires and his dream of truly beating all might will never come true, he realises just how much he has hurt and abused his family for no reason and that the damage he's done may be irreparable. So he stops being awful and genuinely apologies saying that there was no excuse for what he did and his family have no obligation to forgive him for any of it. He also allows his family to have time and space away from him because being around him is uncomfortable for them.
Endeavors redemption arc starts at the end of the third season and is still ongoing because the writer recognizes it as a journey instead of just a trope to cover and move past.
It was interesting. I actually liked it because a lot of the family is split on how to handle it. Course endeavor did not commit mass murder. He was definitely was an abuser and is trying to do better.
I liked his redemption arc over all. I didn't buy it at first but overtime he seemed to really change.
I think the best part about his redemption is he doens't force it onto others. He accepts his family isn't ready to accept his own regrets and gives them space. He's not trying to force them to accept him, he wants to do what he can to make up for his past sins and be better however he can. He's not just going "oops sorry ... we cool now bro?" and is instead constantly trying to heal the dammage he did himself.
Yep, Endeavor’s redemption arc is good. He probably has the best characterization in the entire show. He’s actually one of my favorite characters from MHA now lol.
I always find Starlight an interesting example in redemption discussions, because she highlights the difference between forgiveness and redemption. Starlight at the end of season 5 was not redeemed. She was forgiven, sure, but not redeemed. She spent the entirety of the next season wallowing in guilt over what she'd done, complete with a PTSD attack the moment the idea of reuniting with Sunburst was raised. She kept panicking, making mistakes, backsliding, and it wasn't until the finale of the season that she finally found her way and actually put in the work to redeem herself by saving Equestria from changeling conquest.
Thank you for voicing something that has been in my head for years
I don't need to watch/listen to the rest of this (but will anyway). Hearing "Okay I believe you" reminds me of the fantastic series of "Kingdom Hearts in a Nutshell" and I absolutely love that line. Gets me every time it's used. Thank you Lily lol
I usually watch these while doing activities and playing games, and its good stuff or putting on the second monitor.
I doubt this is something you would want to do or is your style, but a less scripted podcast like rant, or a more longform glass of water would be amazing so I don't have to re watch previous ones a lot when am having a weekend gaming session, would be interesting. I know that this would probably undermine critical elements of it and idk how your creative process would reflect on it, but I do remember the rant like video you made a while back about Blizzard and that, to me at least, was more or less what I'm talking about. Just a half-suggestion.
None of my videos are unscripted. The video about WoW WAS scripted. At the end of the day, longer videos need longer scripts and that nearly triples my workload.
So what your saying is that the pacing of romance plots and redemption arcs should be swapped?
Yeah that's actually a really good way to put it
This is my first time seeing any of your content I like the fact that while talking about Redemption parks you have discord's a little glass of water as your theme
I really like your videos because they're really well made, and are a really good way for me to get an idea of what I should and shouldn't do for my future show.