Honestly, all of the Chibis seem to be better than their original counterparts. They all have a lot more character and more extremely show their emotions
It always bothered me how Emerald's illusion of Ruby is of her current attire and style since at that time, neither Emerald nor Cinder has even seen Ruby since the fall of beacon Academy.
DeeperHavoc I thought about that too. I was thinking it was maybe a budget thing, but they have her character model. Just port it in, especially for such a small scene.
Actually, Cinder going through the same events could be potentially interesting if written correctly. Let's say Cinder does return, this time even more fucked up with more Grimm limbs. It could eventually get to the point where in her pursuit of power, she's lost all humanity and is completely insane, and that's slowly led to her final demise. Just a few tweaks to the Volume 5 script could've done a lot for Cinder (Actually, I think that rule applies to the show as a whole). Sigh.
Huh, that's interesting. I know I should just burn this bridge, but I'm still hung up on a possible redemption arc for her. What do you think of your theory happening, but she's aware of it and at least tries to fight against Salem before completely losing it. As for demise, I've always kinda led towards "fate worse than death", like she realizes all her evil deeds and lives on but with regrets. Idk, what do you think?
@Yankeesfan4ever100 For a character with that kind of body count and personality, you would either need a jarring ass-pull (say, she was mind controlled from the start) or her deciding she wanted to change herself, which is not bloody likely considering she is a self-absorbed megalomaniac sociopath who only cares about power even if the way she is gaining that power leads to the literal destruction of humanity. For comparison, Darth Vader, *the* generation-defining villain, could be redeemed because he sacrificed himself in the last moment for the sake of someone else. Cinder would have no one to sacrifice herself for, as she doesn't care about any of her companions, only power for the sake of power. You cannot redeem a character like that.
I agree with what you're saying, and yeah I love Darth Vader as a character, but after all this time building her up (and the fact she's based on Cinderella) I keep having a pounding thought in the back of my mind she's coming back. Done properly, she could've been in the same category as Darth Vader, Zuko, and Venom; characters who do evil things with understandable motivations but have good buried deep down inside. You can throw Ruby in with Luke, Aang, and Spiderman, then throw Salem in with Palpatine, Ozai, and Carnage for a better comparison. Also, in terms of her changing or deserving redemption, I'm always for originality. If M&K choose, to go down that route, I'll run with it but, like you said with her body count, they will have to write something godly for me to fully accept it. Also, I don't think Miles and Kerry are bad writers (unlike everyone else who claims as such) but it feels like they just didn't bring their A-game this time. Maybe it's because they wanted to write Camp-Camp, the Rwby chibi series, that Neo spinoff that releases in a few months, Rwby volume 6, AND that new mech show...and just didn't have time. However, that's not an excuse. If this is the case, then they took on so many projects at once and they just couldn't handle it.
I believe that her staying the same, along with her power lust, is her hamartia (fatal flaw). In vol 3 being smug and powerlusty led to her downfall. After she recovered in volume 4, with teaching, experience, and range, she returns to her smug self in vol 5, leading to another downfall. In short, being unable to learn from mistakes and develop is what leads to her defeat. This is supported by all things must die, where it often references evolution. The song is probably about raven and cinder and their fight. Cinder loses for the reasons mentioned above, and Raven wins , because she is said to be clever, adaptable, smart, etc.
I'm not sure about that. Don't get me wrong, that DOES sound intriguing and plausible, but they just bring her out of the blue and make her act like an idiot in volume 5 without any explanation. If they had just given her more screen time and showed WHY she was refusing to learn, it could've worked, but because we don't know what's driving her, we end up disappointed. In hindsight, seeing her act smug in volume 5 again is like hearing the same joke more than once: it gets less interesting the more you hear it, and I wasn't all that impressed the first time. Hell, volume 4 hinted at some of her human side, and many people debate that that was when she was at her most relatable, but for whatever reason they decided to just back out of it and make her act completely smug. Again, I'd be willing to buy this if they just showed us why: maybe Salem assuring her that her grimm arm was enough (...even though it made her more vulnerable to Ruby's eyes), Emerald and Mercury supporting her like usual, etc. TL;DR power hunger being her fatal flaw isn't a bad idea, but it was handled so poorly this volume that even if it was the case, it didn't stop her from looking any less stupid.
Cinder's main flaw in Season 5 is that she is trying to be smug and sultry WHILE LOOKING LIKE SOMEBODY THREW A FIREBALL IN HER FACE. Cinder should be more impatient, flighty and desperate to redeem herself. Just about anybody could have taken her down a peg by pointing out that Ruby really did a number on her, so she shouldn't be so cocky.
I would expect her to be more angry, at everything, then like cocky. Like, Volume 4 has her be broken, be solidly barely contained anger as recovery, and she goes back to superior feeling queen bitch as if volume 4 never happened?
Cinder is a villain with style over substance. Some people argue about the song Sacrifice giving her character development. First, you shouldn't have to go out of your way to listen to a song to give a character motivation, personality, etc. That's just an excuse for lazy writing. Second, the song hasn't been confirmed to be about Cinder. It could be about Raven, which would make sense in some cases. And third, I don't need songs for other anime to understand a character. Like Before My Body is Dry from Kill La Kill, (Ryuko Matoi) Sekai Wo from Death Note (Light Yagami), Brave Song from Angel Beats (Yuri Nakamura) etc. I understood those three characters without having to listen to the songs about them.
If that's true, then the writers have elevated the music to a place that it should never have been. The fact is, no one should have to listen to the soundtrack for the character development, when the character development should be taking place within the show itself. Sorry, but AverageAnimeFan is correct: the soundtrack should NEVER be used to provide character development, as that practice promotes lazy writing. It's bad enough that the World of Remnants exist.....never mind that some of them have been retconned (AURA!)..... As far as "Mirror Mirror" goes, that is the ONLY character song that actually carries any narrative weight, as A) it is clearly about Weiss, by Weiss...and B) it is sung by her WITHIN THE NARRATIVE ITSELF. Also, spell-check. Please use it next time.
i desagree char building should be in both rwby had great music because it does that i agree there should be more char build but to say there should be no char build in music would just make the songs mean less i think it very clever and the peaple that dont get it is peaple who are to lazy to just sit down and lision because despite there being char build in music or not the writing for the show would be the same why would peaple complain about more content??? thats stupid the more char build anywhere the better
I love that the songs have substance and information about the plot, but you are right! If the songs are canon, then M&K should drop hints in the show itself (making a paralel between the songs and the atitudes/backstory of the characters that are presented on screen, therefore linking the two). Well, there is just one truth in all of this: Jeff is a better writer in his songs than Miles and Kerry are in their show XD Sorry the bad english :’)
Many do i missed him the moment they confirmed his death, him a throwaway villain managed to be far more interesting than rest of these clowns combined
The thing is that Lust was always sort-of meant to be a one-dimensional character who has some nuance but mainly exists to be an evil force that acts as the introduction to how to kill Homunculus. She's an evil sadistic thing that pretty much was written to show how this group is a threat before being burned to nothing as the starting point for the entire group. Lust herself wasn't anywhere near as important as knowing there were 6 others like her out there that all had more complex characters and abilities. And then there's Cinder.... Who survives for at least 5 whole seasons and narratively fails to act as any sort-of benchline for the group since she's notably the strongest outside of maybe Salem, all while also being the one whose defeated by another powerhouse character, keeping it from having as much impact.
dracocrusher Cinder always struck me as wasted potential. It's been 5 volumes and we still know nothing about her motives other than ,"I want power and to be feared(evil laugh)". She's based on Cinderella for crying out loud! One of the most abused fairy tale characters known to the public domain. She can easily have a backstory of having her parents die, being emotionally/physically abused by an evil stepmother or ugly step sister inspired characters. But instead of her managing to keep a kind heart where she lives happily ever after with her prince thanks to her fairy godmother, she can grow cold due to abuse. Hell, in the original story, Cinderella has birds peck out the eyes of her abusers and they become blind beggars. I can totally see Cinder sending bird grimm after people who wronged her. Instead, we have a flat character who serves the most fan service with a "sexy" voice. I just don't care about her and her motives are so cliche it's bad. Lust may not have been my favorite of the sins in FMA/FMAB but damn if Cinder doesn't just scream Bargain Bin Lust. Why not explore Mercury, Emerald, or bring back Neo who is (hopefully) grieving for Roman? Because after 5 seasons, I could use a break from such a bland villain.
Something that I'm surprised you barely touched on is how Cinder, at one point, has Ruby lying near her and instead focuses on Jaune. And not focuses in "is trying to kill him" way. Instead, she chooses to throw her spear at Weiss, for no other reason than to make Jaune feel bad. And since Cinder chose revenge on Ruby instead of getting the relic straight away... You get what that means, right? Cinder Fall cares more about spiting the person she barely knows than about achieving her objectives. She is THAT petty.
Megalomaniac is someone obsessed with aquiring power and feeling powerful. Cinder certainly has that trait, but she also seemed pretty inteligent so far. This is just stupid. Not even smug or arrogant, just stupid. Even if that is somehow in character for Cinder, it is still a bad thing to have a villain so dumb that they get distracted from reaching their main goals THAT easily. I'm pretty sure that when Cinder walks the street, the moment she sees some random dog she runs up to it and kicks it. It would be perfectly in line with her recent behaviour.
El Capitan maybe her character just fell out of grace. as in, she became worse than what she was before. That happens to regular people. A hard worker in real life thaf turned into a slacker. That kind of development.
El Capitan Yeah but a megalomaniac also has a big ego that gets in their own way. Site Dio Brando and Frieza. All of those actions are still in character.
When I saw Cinder in Volume 4 I thought she was afraid of Salem, like she didn't want to do any of the things she was doing but Salem was forcing her to do it, so she convinced herself that's what she really wanted... until it scarred her for life. And then she made a 180 and became forgettable again
Her one dimensional nature may have worked somewhat if she was actually entertaining/intimidating, but she just feels like some tryhard teenage girl with no charisma.
RapDog62 She a power obsessed megalomaniac why do you think she needs more layers? Also she killed thousands of people plus a main character and created a giant rift between the kingdoms and shutting down practically all communications. Who much more threatening do you need her to be?
Thomas Cochran Every character needs layers, otherwise theyre not a well written character. Only simpleminded and easily entertained children like one dimensional try hard villains like Cinder
Revy's Bitch Frieza is a one dimensional character and is awesome, megatron Darkseid doomsday, Vergil. All of them one dimensional characters but still great because a villain is more than their personality. They are their accomplishments they’re ambitions, they threat, and their relationships with allies ad enemies alike. A villian doesn’t need to have some over the top motivation to be a good villan. People often mistake having a complex motivation with being a good villain. Cinder may not be complex but she’s a damn good villain.
Thomas Cochran Wrong, Freeza is not a one dimensional character, neither are Darkseid or Megatron. All three of those characters have layers to them, Freeza may be a pure evil galactic overlord, but he also had a vulnerable side not to mention he showed character growth in super. Darkseid is also a ruler and acts as an antithesis to superman, but he's also charismatic and intelligent and knows how and when to play his hand. And Megatron has had multiple character arcs in multiple series with Optimus Prime that delve into their backstory. Go watch Armada or Prime and see if you can tell me with a straight face that hes a one note character. All of these people are more flexible and more developed characters than Cinder who is literally nothing but a walking power trip. She's had zero growth, zero development and little to no backstory. A child with no writing comprehension skills could make this character. Shes nothing, she's not even good at being a one note character. Her chibi version is much better, at least there she's playing the typical over the top Saturday morning cartoon villain. In the series they want her to be taken seriously, but it's impossible to do so when she's so poorly written.
Revy's Bitch Vulnerable? His ego was taken down and he freaked out that’s not vulnerable. He was a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum. He was the same one dimensional asshole as always. Also super take place 20 years after z it’s and Frieza was a great villian before he got development. Darkseid May be charismatic and intelligent but that’s not layers. Cinder is intelligent and cunning. That doesn’t mean she has layers. I watched prime and armada. Megatron starts a power hungry social darwinistic asshole and ends a power hungry Darwinistic asshole.
I think a reason I prefer RWBY chibi to actual RWBY is that comedies don't require continuity or consistent/developing characters. Judging from their new animated short, the team seems to struggle with serious stories and/or audience immersion. Did Cinder even meet Jaune? I get him learning of her through hearsay, but why would Cinder ever care about him?
I preferred Chibi since Roman Torchwik, Neo, Pura, Penny and Ozpin original are still a part of it. That and RWBY proper lost its fast pace that meant we could have complex arks within 3 to 4 episodes without the "tell everything at once" approach we see now.
I like Cinder. I like her smugness and seemingly "graceful" control of the situation. I want to see her win with that style. I also agree with most things said in this video. She could be written way better, albeit I wouldn't get the smugness I wanna see. I've lost faith in RWBY executing a great story with the other problems they have amassed.
A really sad part is that Ruby and Cinder have literally fucked each other over in terms of a writing standpoint. A protagonist is only as interesting as an antagonist, or maybe it's the other way around depending on your preference of writing, personally I think of it in the former, and Cinder is as boring as a pile of bricks that I genuinely swear that I forgot she was a character in the show when she was fighting Raven for the simple reason that I don't care about either of the two, and it screws over Ruby because an antagonist's central goal, narratively speaking, is to achieve their goal and also cause the protagonist to be put in a place of constant pressure revealing their true nature with the choice that they make to get out of it, and all Ruby can do about it is Silver Eye Nuke the field. This is a battle between a Two Dull characters and a Deus Ex Machina. Shit.
"...an antagonist's central goal, narratively speaking, is to achieve their goal and also cause the protagonist to be put in a place of constant pressure revealing their true nature with the choice that they make to get out of it..." Out of curiosity, did you read Robert McKee's "Story" or John Truby's "The Anatomy of Story"?
I have read "Story", and am about to begin "Anatomy of Story" after I finish "The Animator's Survival Kit", but I got the majority of that statement from watching the Lessons From the Screenplay on The Joker from the dark knight.
*If Cinder comes back:* ...Why do we care? *If Cinder doesn't come back:* ...Again, why would we care? The only reason I've heard from people why they like Cinder so much is because of her design. I won't deny that the Soundtrack does provide...some sort of things, but that's rather vague, especially since certain songs could be for more than one character. Like Sacrifice, some could say it's Cinder to Salem, some could say it's Salem to Ozpin, hell, it could even be Raven to Ozpin, which is what I personally believe, but to each their own. But the fact that we have to listen to something outside of RWBY in order to understand a character's motivation is not exactly what I would call good writing. Additionally, Salem is somewhat in the same boat, because all we know about her is that she hates Ozpin...that's literally it. We don't know if she's part Grimm, Grimm Queen, or something along those lines, just that she hates Ozpin and wants to do something with the relics, which in all honesty is pretty vague too. I miss Roman. Mostly because that even though we don't know much about his backstory, he was charismatic enough to keep us entertained, and his motivation can somewhat be inferred of survival, mostly to not get killed by Cinder, with lines like *It's not that what I have to gain, it's that I can't afford to lose!* He's fighting for his survival, and admittedly this was minutes before he was killed...Why was he killed off? Who knows. Some would say it's really vague for a character's motivation, but all we can infer from Cinder is that she's afraid of Salem and serves her, but she still quotes that she wants power, why? Why is she with Salem? Why did she agree to server her? Who knows, since we don't even know about Salem either. What sucks is, that the most developed character in the show doesn't really deserve it: Jaune. He gets much more screen time that some of the characters, and has developed more than the characters the show is freaking named about. We see Jaune mourning over Pyrrha in Volume 4, but why not Ruby? She literally saw her die right in front of her eyes, why don't we get to see her crying about Pyrrha or Penny? Just to show that it actually had an impact on her. I get that she went all super-silver eyes, and that Ruby's the optimistic character, but that's it, she's a bit bland. I know that Jaune is a fan favorite, and maybe even a writer's favorite considering one of the writers voices him, but I think that some of the characters deserve more screen time and development, it's been 5 Volumes and I like Ilia more than Cinder, a character who was introduced in Volume 4, opposed to a character introduced in Volume 2. Sorry if I've deviated from the topic a bit. I like RWBY, but can't deny it's...meh, in terms of writing its story and its characters. Probably just being stupid here, but decided to voice my thoughts out since why not. Again, probably just a dumbass. Good video, and liked.
It is literally impossible for Sacrifice to be about Raven as the song was written prior to Raven's character being written. The song has played on-screen for Cinder twice and uses her leitmotif in it. It has lyrical parallels with Divide which clearly show it is a song directed at Ozpin, not at Salem (Salem isn't ruling the world, Salem isn't the one who talks about gods). Cinder works for Salem because they have the same goals. As for why Salem hates Ozpin it's all in Divide verse 3.
Raven's character wasn't written yet? Huh. You learn something new everyday. Well, assuming that Sacrifice is still Cinder's song, it doesn't really say much. If it's about Cinder herself, then *What if all the plans you made,* *Were not worth the price they paid?* *Even with the lives you stole,* *Still no closer to your...* *Goal...* Could imply some sort of regret from Cinder. If this is Cinder talking to Salem, then it could show that she's still defiant of Salem's wishes, although this isn't very evident in the series as the video points out. Also could say that she could turn on Salem at some point. Although after her..."death", in Volume 5, it would be nice to see her just go rage mode anrgy on Raven or Ruby, the two foes that struck her down. If this is Cinder to Ozpin, that would imply a backstory between the two, like Cinder trained under Ozpin but ran away to Salem after finding a truth ot something along those lines. Or could just be a hate for Ozpin in general. Even so though, it's still pretty vague and you have to make some assumptions, and the fact that you have to go out of your way listen to the soundtrack/go to the credits to listen to a character's possible backstory isn't exactly an appealing way to do it. Given the song, Cinder does have _some_ character, but not really much to go on without assuming and infering from the song. Also, characters have had multiple songs dedicated to them, such as the multiple songs revolving around the four main characters. Although this could just be because they're the ones most prominent on the show...second to Jaune. Sorry if I sound like an asshole, not really sure how to say it. Also sorry if what I'm saying is stupid. Thanks for reading, and have a good day.
It is from Cinder's perspective and directed at Ozpin. I already demonstrated why that is the case. It says a lot about Cinder because it tells us what her motives actually are. It shows us what moral issues she takes with Ozpin and why she wants to overthrow him. Divide's 3rd verse tells us that Salem's motives are the exact same as Cinder's. And yes, the "born an angel heaven sent" part heavily implies Cinder was a former hunter before she discovered the truth about Ozpin. Hazel has the same motives as Cinder and Salem, but people think he's stupid because of all the misinformation about Salem (People think her end goal is killing everyone or destroying the world or whatever because "hurr durr she looks spooky" and they think that she is responsible for the actions of the Grimm en masse. Neither of these things are true.) I've said this a million times but I agree that conveying important information in image songs is poor writing and it should be more clear in the show. That is not, however, an excuse to pretend that information doesn't exist. The same is true for them putting important info in WoR episodes or god forbid the DIRECTOR'S COMMENTARY or BEHIND THE SCENES INTERVIEWS. It's ridiculous. Again, though, this is not an excuse to ignore the factual information conveyed in this side material. By the way, you don't sound rude or like an asshole. I'm the one being rude here, sorry.
Cinder does have a hatred for Ozpin, although not too prominently shown, but I guess the song does show that, assuming that it is Cinder to Ozpin. Even so though, she stated that "*She wanted to be feared. She wants, to be powerful."*, of course, this could just be her wanting to scale up to Ozpin, or maybe just destroy everything Ozpin's built up, but it does imply that there is some other reason why she works with Salem for the power she seeks. I acknowledge that Cinder does have a possible motive and some character in the song, assuming that it is her to Ozpin, which I guess I agree with, but there's still a good bit of her character that we don't really know. Her motivation for power and to be feared by everyone is still there, and it's clear that she's not doing for Salem's sake, or just for Ozpin. We don't know much about Salem, other than she wants to change the world using the relics, and has an intense hatred for Ozpin for using his students as pawns on a chessboard according to the song *Divide*. She also wants to divide the kingdoms, but this could just be to cause negative emotion between them to call Grimm. Other than using the relics to change Remnant in some way, we don't really know what her goal is. It's unlikely she would want to destroy everything, unless with an odd but good reason, like wanting to end the cycle that the whole of Remnant's been doing. A stupid example of a reason, which I apologize for, but yeah. I don't see Salem destroying Remnant or killing everyone. Also, you don't sound too rude, more like determined to get the point across.
Just looking at how much effort she put in to destroy Ozpin's order, and the rage she showed when giving her speech about him and his cabal should tell you her main motive is defeating him. Hell, her reaction to Ozpin having a new host in V5 was the angriest she'd been since her near-death when Ruby activated her powers again. As for the obsession with this one single line -- WHY? Why hyper-focus on one line and ignore everything else she's said and done? I see this pattern repeatedly with Cinder denialism. People ignore everything else and reduce her whole character down to one line, which in context refers to the means to her end. In that same episode, after explaining her plan to defeat Ozpin offscreen, we're shown Adam referring to her as having "a human cause" as opposed to a Faunus one (merely "wanting power" would not be well described that way), and she told him her goal was a revolution. The episode which people using that line are quoting from refutes them. "Her motivation for power and to be feared by everyone is still there, and it's clear that she's not doing for Salem's sake, or just for Ozpin." Again, that is just a means to an end. It is not her motive. It is how she goes about accomplishing her motive. It is clear that the reason she's doing everything is to defeat Ozpin. Sacrifice makes that very clear. "She also wants to divide the kingdoms, but this could just be to cause negative emotion between them to call Grimm." Just like with Cinder and power, this is HOW she accomplishes her goals, not her goals themselves. "Other than using the relics to change Remnant in some way, we don't really know what her goal is." Defeat Ozpin, destroy his tyrannical system (as she percieves it, it's fine if you don't view his system the same way) and eliminate him from Remnant so that it can be free. Now the macguffins are a whole other mess that's tangential to this, but her searching for them kinda makes the whole divide plan null and void. They are a terrible plot device that was hamfistedly shoved in in V4, after her regular MO had already been established. It's possible she wants them so she can permakill Ozpin out of existence or something, I don't know. "A stupid example of a reason, which I apologize for, but yeah. I don't see Salem destroying Remnant or killing everyone." This alone makes you more thoughtful than 99% of this fandom. You wouldn't believe how many people think Salem's end goal is killing all humans or something. Hell, a few determined idiots have put this up on her pages on multiple wikia sites, despite no actual evidence for it.
@@nomight273 good for you not a joke rwby bigger than ever before and your small group claims its the worst show while trying to claim to be fans most hate for rwby videos can barely get above 200k views now that's funny
@@lesnarahamilton5674 oh but this. Video has 166k views bud. Rwby is just a bad story all around with no good character devolpment. If everyone in team rwby dies the only one most people will feel sad for is wiess.
I don't think she can. Because they had a chance to fix her, but then the instant they had a chance to they just immediately backed down and pushed the reset button. Cinder worked as an intreductory threat, but now that they've failed to capitalize on her early characterization, all she has left is just how she's changed by being angry. But the writers are so incompetent that they're actively refusing to put her in situations where she'd get pissed off and become the petty furious villain that she needs to be. Like Cinder should have actively been cheating and raging at Ruby and the others throughout that entire final battle, but nope! We have to give the just as boring Raven her crap instead even though this is the worst idea for a villain face-off possible.
dracocrusher I agree with you I was just saying that I hope RT could maybe turn Cinder into a villain I give a shit about. I'm a strong believer in the idea of what makes a good hero is a just as good Villain. Ruby is a bad main character so it makes sense that her villain would suck. Cinder is like how this video says. Boring she is just the same kind of villain we have all seen time and time again. A good Villain in my opinion is Roman Torchwick. Sure he didn't have Maiden powers or anything too crazy but he was still a better villain. He reminded me of Handsome Jack from the borderlands games. Roman was fun to watch,had a cool look and weapon and a solid if not ok reason behind his madness. Hell Adam is a better villain for the first three volumes until he turned into a crybaby. I'm a huge Cinder hater but even I wish that the thing I hate can become better so I won't have to hate it anymore.
+MR OVER 9,000 Agreed, Roman really should have stayed the main threat of the series. They're trying to give everything this serious weight to it and make this big dramatic thing, but that's just not what this series needed. It needed an active threat the group could fight and eventually start winning against who could constantly harass them and be this energetic presence that could grow with the narrative and become more threatening and dislikable as the series went on. Essentially, it needed a character with charisma who could, say, lead Grimm to attack the heroes or just generally be in Ruby's way as the face of Salem while contrasting the more serious tone of the heroes. I get that they tried to sort-of make Cinder into that, but with Cinder it just doesn't really work because she's just way too powerful and doesn't have nearly enough of a personality. So while there's quite a few scenes of her doing evil deals and stuff behind the scenes, she can never really harass the main group because, since Ruby doesn't understand her Deus Ex Machina powers, Cinder would just wipe the floor with everyone in a direct conflict if her intent was to just end Ruby completely. All while at least two characters in the main group that the series is directly named after haven't even won a fight against a non-Grimm opponent before.
Agreed to be real the show had gone down hill. I hate to say it but it's true. I am a huge RT fan but I started as Achievement Hunter fan who turned into a RWBY Fan. I love the show but after Monty's death Miles and Kerry have killed the show. The fighting is passable at best. The writing is that of a Saturday Morning cartoon. The animation has got better but even that isn't enough to get the show back to the beast it used to be. But even with all of that I will still watch this show until it is finished. Sure the show isn't as good as it used to be but I still enjoy watching parts of it. I can't wait to see what they do with Neo or if they will make the main character into a good main character. I can't wait to see a fight that will make me cheer in joy. I can't wait to see who RT will get to voice new characters. I can't wait to see how this show will end. I don't talk trash about a show because I hate it I talk trash about a show I love to tell the people who make it to do better.
+MR OVER 9,000 From my experience RWBY started off on a bit of a bad foot at Episode 1, not quite living up to the trailers, but since then it got exponentially better each season until the VEERRRRYYY end of Season 3, where they pulled out a massive Deus Ex Machina that still hasn't been explained. Sure, Season 3's big plot is insanely stupid when you think about what the villains are actually trying to achieve, but it was also easily the best Season in the series, bad fights aside. And then Season 4 happened and things took a very notable step down with a lot of problems becoming even more of a focus, but at least one of the four storylines was good? ...... Then Season 5 happened...... And I didn't think it was possible, but for the first time in the series they might have made something worse than the sketchy first season. Because while Season 1 had the cliched bullying stuff and a really weak narrative overall, at least it was short and gave people what they wanted. Season 5, on the other hand, is just one big overly convoluted mess of bad writing, failed characters, and butchered action with just some touches of actually good moments and gags here and there. Hopefully it gets better again in Season 6, but after two seasons of letdown I'm really not holding my breath for this to get anywhere close to the highs of Seasons 2 or 3 again.
I agree so much with you, what made me like her so much was were volume 4 was (I thought) taking her. To a redemption arc or any type of change. Nope, nothing.. so sad.
Thomas Cochran I don't watch many shows now a days. So I don't keep up with how companies do their series and movies. It's a fresh look at shows in which I'm not tainted by "this is cliche!!" As much as others. I like it in a way. In another tho, it's cuz i haven't found many great watchable shows for me. Other than RWBY (tho it's losing momentum fast) and my hero academia (which is gaining momemtum fast)
The unknown Parade Dude she killed off a main character and thousands of others created a giant rift between the kingdoms while shutting down their communications and has shown to be a power obsessed megalomaniac. What about that screams redeemable character?
Thomas Cochran It was her facial expressions during the opening and the way she looked while tyrian was killing the grimm. but that would have been an interesting character and we know miles and Kerry don't want that /s
The unknown Parade Yeah because we all know evil people can never look uncomfortable when a psychopath has a break down. You can’t just make assumptions from a few instances and say their going to reverse a character’s entire personality. Also she’s not supposed to be interesting she’s supposed to be dangerous effective and make our heroes want to kill her. She’s dangerous cause she has immortal magic super powers. She effective cause she killed thousands and crippled the World’s communications while stilling a legendary magic in one fell swoop. And the heroes want to kill her cause she killed their friend one of which she was dating. Not all characters have to be interesting but all characters need to serve their purpose. Your not supposed to like Cinder your supposed to want her to die.
It all comes back to show don't tell. We feel more connected with cinder because we SEE her struggles and desires. You can't get much attachment to a character when they only say what they want. We have to see their reactions. Watch your favorite scene from any good drama twice, once normally and the second time muted. See what kind of emotions you can pick up from the characters the second time.
I always hated Cinder. My only guess why the writers wrote her that way (bland, static villain character) was that they wanted to make her unredeemably evil (like a villain from a Disney movie), but this just made her bland and she appeared more like a teenager trying to be edgy than an actually interesting villain.
To be fair, she IS irredeemably evil. I mean, she kinda orchestrated a school shooting in a bid for personal power, and we learn nothing that could paint her as humanizing or sympathetic before that point....NARRATIVE TIMING, PEOPLE! IT'S A THING, LEARN IT!
I agree with you. It doesn't matter how many people a villain kills, or how many 'evil actions' they commit; if they don't look and feel intimidating, absolutely terrifying or disturbingly charismatic, then you've failed in that writing department. I get none of that from her. She may as well be a teens' world revenge fantasy. If she does come back, screw fan pandering, what she needs is a complete rework and some character development, because that's what happens when people go through loses. They change, their morals change; they evolve for the good or the bad. For example, Zuko was always an edgy boi throughout the series, but what makes him so amazing was the fact that he was constantly progressing with each victory or loss; his motives, dreams, desires, opinions and overall world outlook morphed and suddenly, despite being the 'main villain' per say, he became humanized. Interesting. Multi-layered. Doing a lot of 'evil things' does NOT qualify as character layering. It just screams, "I WANT TO MAKE SURE YOU KNOW SHE'S A VILLAIN. SHE'S REALLY REALLY EVIL. LOOK AT ALL THE BAD THINGS SHE'S DONE. LOOK." You shouldn't have to do that. Show, don't tell.
Damn, bro. You hit the nail on the head. I heard a lot of people say that her grimm arm was causing her to go insane, but then that raises the question of "why would Salem trust a crazy person to retrieve a holy relic AND pursue power?" Like you've said everything correctly and if there are fans out there who actually wanted her to be like this, I can only assume they're 13-year-olds with no understanding of good and bad, or just that delusional.
It doesn't really matter if a character is intimidating, terrifying, or charismatic if there isn't substance behind that style. (I'll admit that pulling off a properly intimidating/terrifyinh/charismatic villain is tricky without that substance, but you need to focus on the substance more than how it's expressed.)
Apart from an anticlimatic demise i think she is a great villian and pretty well hadled. I mean....she went to a change.....she was vulnerable for the first time, hass a vendetta against ruby annd in all honesty she is up there with starlight glimmer with the most despicable villians. She has a great actitude and fucked everyone up. I only hate the way she died. But well if you have me rooting for the bitch that left her familly to kill her you must be doing something right. I mean, i don t get waht you people want. For her to get reformed?. Yeah you are right, a villian has to have a character of his own and not just be villanous, but she pretty much fill the bill. You don t need a multilayered villian to be great. Discord, freezer, Tirek, the joker. All one note villians that don t need more complexity than their fucked up believes , intelligence, methods and power to archieve a goal. You don t have to give sauron a backstory to make him a good villain. Sometimes a backstory only underminds everything...like with starlight glimmer.
Truth-Rationale Scientist That actually makes it worse because we’re able to look at her backstory for context of just how stupid she is. At least with Cinder there’s that plausible deniability that it was a plan gone awry or whatever.
I'd say that's actually a good comparison as they're similar characters (rebelling against and delivering "justice" to an authority figure through means that make them an antagonist) but the writing for Shigaraki is much more consistent and half of it isn't stuck in fucking image songs. God M&K are incompetent. Agreed that Birdbrain is definitely the worst antagonist in the series. Cinder is an interesting character who's been written and conveyed poorly. Birdbrain is just shit.
Wasn't Shigaraki supposed to be a badly designed villain? Like, wasn't that the point of his character? If that is the case, and he's still better than Cinder, then yes, I agree with Vexed. You have to TRY to make a character as bad as Cinder. It's not even just laziness.
Salem's thinking: ruby is a threat who knows how to use her silver eyes Reality: 2 volumes and she still don't give a fuck about it, and used the whole last volume to learn how to gives headbutts for the sake of a 4 seconds sequence.
I argued with people about this before, back in Vol 3. I had the view that in the first two or three volumes she was SUPPOSED to be mysterious and we weren't supposed to understand much about her or who she was. She was the shadowey calculating villain in the background and the only explanation of her motives was her own, which aren't necessarily going to be the whole story. I had expectations that she would be developed further. I didn't like that she was revealed to not be the big bad, just a mook, but ultimately if she had a good deal of autonomy and respect from salem I could live with it. But then it became clear it wasn't really happening. She's just another mook and I doubt her real character is ever going to be explored any deeper. We know all there really is to know about her, I think. She no longer has a mystique and she's no longer portrayed as being especially cunning or powerful so she's lost that. As it stands, I went from really liking and being interested in her to not really giving a shit over volume 4 and 5. I apologise to anyone I argued with about this, you were right. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the vulnerability was bad or anything and I was excited at the start of volume 4, if they'd taken it somewhere I'd have been fine that would have been development, but it didn't really go anywhere and did nothing to replace what the character lost. I also think, we didn't see her die so she's not dead. Seems to be the rule of thumb with rwby.
Agreed. Thru volumes 1-3, I viewed her as some sort of master manipulator, an invisible hand behind many events. Afterwards, she just felt like a thug with shoes too big for her feet. Hell, Torchwick, the actual thug, was a better villain than her; at the very least, his charisma was off the charts.
Cinder is, after Volume 5, the proof that we can't expect high quality from RWBY. The only reason that I can find for her sudden return of her smug personality is that maybe her fans (Yes, there is people which thinks she's a great villain) missed her old self and so wrote her back.
But that's Fan pandering and I never liked that because it doesn't work well and kills off good oppruntinties though it depends how much fan pandering they're doing
And people wonders why I say volume 5 is the worst volume. They made Ruby and Ozpin useless idiots, destroyed what little good they did with Cinder, and ruined the villains in general. Bravo. And yes, Cinder not even acknowledging Ruby was fucking there except for one fireball is beyond stupidity. And even if she didn't want to kill her because Salem wznts her alive, that doesn't mean she should ignore her! Tyrian had no beef with her yet, and he's insanely devoted to Salem, but he still tried to fucking stab her in the eye with his stinger, so I doubt Salem cares if Ruby is intact as long as she's not dead. And even, you can take revenge on someone without harming them directly. Hurt their friends instead. If Cinder decided to fuck up Jaune and Weiss just to piss off Ruby instead of the clusterfuck we got, at least there would have been some worth there. But no, instead we have Cinder who forgets everything that happened since V3 and goes back to square one. And that's infuriating: if she's dead, then she's a waste of a character because we still have no idea of her motivations and didn't confront Ruby, but if she's alive she's still a waste because we have no reason to care anyway.
Exactly! Especially the last part. Rt just tied their hands with how awful Cinder is and now either things they will decided to do with her will be awful.
whitefanful it doesn't make the scene better if she tortures Ruby to piss off Jaune. It make it even worse because that means hurting Jaune is more important to Cinder than the other way around. Which is why I think Cibder should have dobe : A) attack Ruby from the get-go, but Jaune and Weiss try to put themselve between them, prompting Cinder to make them suffer, or B) taunt Ruby as she's fighting Jaune, to make clear she doesn't give a rat's ass about him, but is doing so to torture Ruby. "Look, another of your friends you can't save" or some shit. Cinder doesn't have to maim Ruby, though I'm not particularly against the idea of Ruby losing an eye at one point. But Cinder had to at least make clear she's here for her, the rest being a distraction. Even her being silver eye'd could have been used better. Because if this, she panicks, doesn't want a repeat of V3, thinks she needs moar power, and that's why she tries to take Vernal's power.
93ImagineBreaker As I've said in the comments of Vexe's video about Ruby, she was still fine by the end of V4. Underdevelopped, true, but it could have been corrected had V5 focused on her, since they still had plenty of opportunities to dwelve into her character. Except V5 didn't, and what little they gave her to do ended up making her worse.
you know as much I love this show, you have a legit point with both Cinder and Ruby... sigh, stupid writers... I just hope they don't make Neo like that when they bring her back.
I don't know, at least Neo does more than Salem, as cool as her design is, does she do anything aside from monologue? and what exactly is she? and what are her powers exactly? so confusing...
Like you said, I kind of liked Cinder's character in Vol. 4 of RWBY, she had such potential to develop as a character. Then it gets squandered in Vol. 5. Honestly, she's one of the worse villains in my opinion, yeah she looks cool, uses fire, but other than that there's nothing there. It's a shame because if she was written right, she could have been a good character and maybe a formidable villain. The following is just my opinion
@@muhammadsban2009 you mean one of the best villains.....even tow her compateshion other then salum and thats only because of volume 6 ep 3 but still today best villion is cinder espasoly incase none of the others ever do anything
1. Odd that Ty. had no issue potentially killing ruby yet cinder who has a reason to, ignores her despite at finale being feat away so no excuse for her. 2. Again salem say why you want her alive. 3.A bland MC deserves a bland villain I guess.
Unfortunately, the villains of this series seem to be written in a way that make Khorne worshipers look like the paragons of strategy. Hell, even Abaddon the Despoiler looks more competent by comparison. Not sure though if the Orks are more intelligent than the villains in RWBY.
Mick824: With Abaddon, I can buy into the idea that he is cunning. He has been a commanding officer since the Horus Heresy, so he is familiar with warfare. It doesn't hurt that the authors at Black Library expanded upon his character. Now my knowledge about Khorne worshipers and berzerkers is limited, but don't they have an aversion to anything that relies on cunning. I do recall them being able to speak like a warrior outside the battlefield, and they won't turn their nose on flanking maneuvers. But, don't they black out and attack randomly if they take too long strategizing?
Archon of Plagues Oh Apologies Archon, I was referring to the Orks when I made that comment about being Cunning. As for the Khornites, I will assume it varies between the warbands on different levels of being Bloodthirsty as Fuk.
Mick824: I'll have to take your word for it with regards to the Orks since my knowledge on them is limited to "Ragnar's Claw" by William King, "Farsight" by Phil Kelly and some random facts on TH-cam. Ragnar's Claw: The grunts were fooled into believing that some poorly disguised Space Wolves were just more Orks. The psyker warboss, which I think is called a weirdboy, was powerful enough to not only kill one of the Space Wolves, but also managed to spook the MC a couple of chapters after nearly being killed by him. Farsight: In that novella, it looked like the Orks were smart enough to use the planet's dust storms to their advantage. However, they also got distracted by power struggles immediately whenever either their leader or technician got killed. I may have to check out the Kharn novels to get an idea on how Khornites operate.
Roman in comparison had so much personality, charisma, intriguing dialog and hinted backstory that I was so pissed when he got axed. I know that I said this before but Roman was a better potential for a foil to Ruby Rose than Cinder because from his last moments of dialog it really hinted at something more than 'hired henchman'. "Like it or not, the people that hired me are going to change the world! You can't stop 'em, I can't stop 'em...You know the old saying, if you can't beat 'em-" (Roman's lines) I honestly thought that if there was going to be a big reveal, it would be that Roman actually used to be a huntsman that realized he was fighting a losing battle and lost too many battles and loved ones to keep fighting the good fight. That would explain his 'jack of all trades' skill, his knowledge of dust resources (from constantly needing them to fight Grimm), his lack of any fear in the face of Grimm, and his constant belittlement of the RWBY team's resolve. (also his coat design is too similar to Qrows for some reason what if he was a teacher at an academy *cough*) If Ruby viewed Qrow as an idol for what a huntsman was like, it would have been so interesting for her to also see what can happen to a huntsman that has completely gone rogue, and for good reason. Especially since from the surface Qrow and Roman are both bitter, witty, smart, secretive, sometimes angry, talented fighters that have seen better days and the worst of the worst. The difference was that Qrow keeps Ruby in the dark whereas Roman is a constant reminder of how dark and bleak it can be. When he said "You want to be a hero? Then play the part and die like every other Huntsman in history!" it wasn't a sneer for the sake of sneer. It was a reality check wrapped with an ass whopping to remind Ruby that the life she has chosen is a death contract pending the date she finally loses.
Schane Flowers- Man, Roman had so much potential to be even more awesome than he already was. And yet, we kept Cinder Fail just to do nothing except kill her again.
She wants to overthrow Ozpin for his moral failings in ruling the world from secret, brainwashing its people, and tricking them so he can send them to die in service of his grudge with her. She does not want to destroy the world. Go listen to Divide's 3rd verse. As for Cinder, Sacrifice is just waiting over there for you to listen to.
Soarel That doesn't explain why she wants to get all the maidens' powers. You can theorize why but we are never explicitly told why. And Sacrifice has never been confirmed to be Cinder's song. It could easily be Raven's. Songs, though, should never be a substitute for what should be the main show's job. They should absolutely use the main show to tell the story and provide explanations, not cover what they missed in a song and expect everyone to listen to it. That's lazy.
Cinder doesn't "want to get all the maidens' powers". She only attacked Vernal after she caught them about to betray her. The original plan was for them to open the door, for her to get the macguffin, and then leave. She didn't need the Spring Maiden powers until she realized the Spring Maiden was about to betray her. The songs contain canon information that isn't in the show. I agree it's stupid that they put important info in side material, but that does not make the info stop existing or somehow not count. It's bad writing but it is canon and should be taken into consideration. Let me get my link dump to debunk the idea Sacrifice belongs to the Bird Moron. It is Cinder's theme, 100%. Sacrifice has played for Cinder’s entrance in V5E7: th-cam.com/video/vi8y8PxW5h4/w-d-xo.htmlm45s It also plays in this Cinder-focused scene in V5E13: th-cam.com/video/5A5hRP1Hkbg/w-d-xo.htmlm37s The opening of Sacrifice uses the melody of Cinder’s leitmotif. Cinder’s leitmotif is also heard repeating in the background of the verses of Sacrifice, something that is much more easily heard in the instrumental: th-cam.com/video/gvklkApe6Hk/w-d-xo.html Samples of Cinder’s leitmotif can be heard here if you’re not familiar: th-cam.com/video/QJo3RjyQas4/w-d-xo.html During the RWBY Rewind interview, M&K state that Raven's story in V4-5 was only written mid-V3. Sacrifice is from V2, before her story was written out beyond merely “she’s Yang’s mom and abandoned her”. It is literally impossible for the song to be from her perspective unless the writers have access to time travel. The question is 22 minutes in. Here’s the m3u8: rtv3-video.roosterteeth.com/store/3d381b38963b8c88d55703e894c883d7-e644bd37/ts/index.m3u8
More likely then not Cinder would've tried to kill them anyway. I'm pretty sure Salem would feel more at ease having the Spring Maiden's powers in the hands of Cinder than in the hands of a wild card like Raven who could easily betray them. But both of our statements are pure speculation so passing it off as fact is disingenuous. Regarding the information being placed in songs, it's up to the interpretation of the listener and therefore is a poor way to determine actual canon. Especially with a song like Sacrifice that seems to have two points of view being sung in it. We don't know who is who and that's the problem.
She would have no reason to do so once the door had been opened. We know, for a fact, who Sacrifice is from. It's Cinder, the whole time, 100%. It plays for her and uses her leitmotif.
Once I saw this, I isntantly reflected on this by stopping to think about it. Genneric villan who wants power. That's it. She never changed and sounds like a robot. You'd think she'd deliberately try to gouge one of here eyes out at least. As Tyrion said, "an eye for an eye". I'm not convinced she's dead until see the body or weshe her shatter. Hopefully she eventually says screw buisness. It just got personal and goes absolute berserk whenever she sees rwby.
i really hope we get development on roman and neo!! roman may be dead but both of them are so much more intriguing than the current villains and i hope we can at least get a little backstory? please..?
I always thought Cinder is a terrible character since Volume 2. I always thought there will a battle between her and Ruby on the 2nd and 3rd volumes. But no, that never happened. You should make a video talking about how much of the openings are misleading from the series themselves.
+Valerie Santiago Yeah, but that's not a real battle. That was just an encounter as Ruby didn't know who she was at the time and Cinder escaped when she looked away. The openings of Volume 2 and 3 showed the two fight, but that never truly happened. I thought it would finally happened in Volume 5, but Ruby fought Emerald (Which was supposed to be Weiss's opponent as seen on the openings) and Cinder fought Raven instead. Opening intros are supposed to foreshadow the events of what will happen in the series later on. Completely misleading and should never be in them in the first place if they won't occur.
I felt the same. All that build up for that Ruby vs Cinder and we get a Raven vs Cinder. What. Wasted 2 seasons for a fight no one wanted. What I've noticed with RWBY is that the writers are afraid or too uncreative to ever resolve anything so they keep things from ever resolving. Pyrrha's death was the only that changed anything. Everything else is an endless cycle of running away from resolution. Blake vs Adam - Blake runs away. Blake vs Adam part 2, Adam runs away. (Not to mention waited 5 years for Blake to finally accept she's not alone. Hopefully she won't regress back to being a lone wolf like how Cinder regressed to her boring 'I'm like this cuz I'm eeeeviiil' personality) Ruby vs Cinder - Pyrrha fights her instead, Ruby vs Cinder part 2, Raven fights Cinder instead. Waiting for Jaune vs Cinder revenge fight? Well that has to happen before the 'epic' Ruby vs Cinder. Expect that to happen in Season 15. Then Ruby vs Cinder will finally happen in season 40. I have been watching this show for 5 years and it barely got to anything. Frankly, I believe the show will lose all its profitable fans before we ever get to see anything resolved and the show will be dropped. May Monty rest in peace wherever he is.
Pyrrha dying didn't even change anything, either. Literally, no one's actions changed from that happening. Ruby would have still gone to Mistral in search of clues for Cinder, because she was still responsible for the loss of Beacon (which is enough "raising the stakes" in and of itself), JNPR would have still gone with her, as the events that fractured RWBY had nothing to do with anything JNPR was involved with, and they are close enough to Ruby that they would not have let her go alone, so the idea of "making it personal" for JNPR changed nothing of how they responded to it. The only reason they killed Pyrrha was fanservice, because it's the "in" thing to kill off "mains" for cheap shock value. Wasn't even Pyrrha that was the focus of her own death, too. Know why? We don't see how Cinder kills Ozpin, so all that fight serves to show is "look at what Cinder can do now!". It's a weapons test, just as the Red Trailer was for Ruby. Pyrrha's nothing more than the punching bag, against an opponent who was not only bench-marked by Glynda Goodwitch in the VERY FIRST EPISODE, but oh so conveniently has a powerset that perfectly counters Pyrrha WITH NO IN-SERIES EXPLANATION FOR WHY? I mean, it's not like Cinder was tailoring herself to fight Pyrrha from the beginning, but she ends up with a powerset that just happens to counter anything and everything Pyrrha can throw at her? Seriously, they even showed us that Cinder, at one point, relied on metal weaponry...and now she can make them out of glass, negating Polarity (which actually isn't the Story-Breaker Power the writers led us to believe it was). Cinder could already fight Pyrrha effectively after being disarmed because of the Dust weaving, and then you give her a power that essentially allows her to use elemental powers without the need for Aura or Dust (we know that Maiden powers can be used even after one's Aura is broken, look to Raven freezing Cinder), and she just so happens to use nothing but fire up to that point. Fun fact: intense heat makes magnets lose their charge, and that's one way that Cinder and Pyrrha DON'T fuck with physics, meaning that one still applies. There was no possible way that you could have made this fight believably even, even to serve as "Pyrrha's last stand", except for actually letting Pyrrha receive the other half of the Fall Maiden powers. Hell, you'd DEFINITELY have a confirmation of a kill THAT way, since we'd see the transfer of the power from Pyrrha to Cinder.
Vexed Viewer I mean, neither had any character progression, but at least Cinder did stuff that affected the story and character development of other characters. Blake was just there, even in the parts of a Volume that were meant to be focused on her.
Cinder didn't even lose an eye, should just had scarring. And why couldn't she speak? She was injured completely on the outside, it never made sense to me.
Reminder that Cinder was one of the losers of v3. Despite overall winning the fight (getting the maiden powers, killing Oz, destroying Beacon, and terrorising Remnant) she ends up defeated at the height of her power, and scarred mentally and physically. Her moment of glory was fleeting as a small girl she underestimated pulled out protagonist eyes and reduced Cinder to a shadow of herself. If the writers weren't going to give us a backstory, they still accidentally gave us one: Ruby had ruined Cinder, and she was going to get revenge. It was also kind of a cool concept too. This wasn't just paying Ruby back for pain, or because she made Cinder angry. Cinder was lashing out out of weakness. Ruby made her pitiful and mentally scarred her. Cinder lost a fight and boy was it one-sided. Stakes were raised on the basis that she was getting payback. So what did the show decide to do? Minimal interaction with Ruby, fighting a character she has zero history with, and *losing a one-sided fight*. Not only is Cinder not interesting, she's just not a threat.
Cinder being boring is so true. A good villain who's cocky and pure evil is always fun, but she's unnecessary. When she was the shows original big bad fine I could deal with it. But we now have other villains and Salem who is meant to be pure evil. She's a generic villain who's now been overshadowed. Giving her redemption or just redeeming qualities in general would've made her so much more interesting. Like we get a sad backstory on Hazel, but do I care? We as viewers have a history with cinder and care more about her then Hazel.
Opal64 Miles actively goes out of his way to take Jaune away from scenes because he doesn't want people to think he's a self-insert. Miles is actually extremely mindful of the fandom. I've followed him since he started at Roosterteeth and I'd go so far as to say he probably has extreme anxiety when it comes to wanting to make fans happy. Call him a bad writer if you want. But saying he doesn't care or that Jaune is a self-insert is just wrong. Kerry said that Jaunes big parts in the story were almost written entirely by Kerry and Monty. Miles avoids writing Jaune whenever he can.
It is very possible to unintentionally create a self-insert character even when actively trying to avoid it. Hell, Monty and Kerry might have accidentally created a self-insert for Miles. And now because Jaune is already created and Miles has influence on the character, it becomes his self-insert. And his desire to please the fandom is partially the reason why the show got fucked up so badly. The writers changed the script because the fans demanded it, rather than sticking to their guns and doing what they planned. Team SSSN got shafted because fans demanded Team CVFY. If you as a writer only write because you want to please fans, then you have all the wrong reasons for being a writer. A writer should focus on creating a good story first, and pleasing fans second, because fans being pleased will come from writing a good story in the first place. The fans aren't the writers. The writers are.
Well I know that during the writing process, he cares more about people NOT liking something he's written rather than liking it. So when i say he wants to make fans happy, I mean he mainly wants to make critics happy. Do you think writers should not write a story WITH critics in mind?
Yeah, but I like Juane as a character. The problem isn't them developing Juane, its NOT developing anybody else, besides Weiss. Ruby is pretty much EXACTLY the same, but a little more whiny. In fact, I think I liked Ruby better when she was a naive child who dove into fights. Blake has ALWAYS gotten on my nerves, and the only thing Yang changed about herself was her arm and her fighting style to pretty much become tiny-Tai. Plus, Juane is the main lead. He deserves as much development as Ruby does, its just that Ruby doesn't get it.
I like how she takes the spear and instead of IDK throwing it at ruby who was completely unconscious and in close proximity to her with Jaune unable to do anything about it turns around and tosses it at weiss
Which is funny considering Roman was only supposed to appear in Volume 1 but the fans took a liking to him. Them he was axed for Salem and her faction despite him still being considered one of the best villains in the show.
Cinder Fall: keeping Ruby a live? Salem what was the point of the training you had me do in the first place if you wanted me to keep her alive? Salem: don't ask me. ask Miles.
Volume 1 Cinder was mysterious and enigmatic, which made her somewhat interesting. However, this does _not_ mean that making her continue to do the same things in Volume 1 would elicit the same emotional reactions. When you see so many scenes where a given character is prominently present, it's basically impossible to make her seem mysterious and enigmatic rather than...boring.
Her voice is fine. But her actual acting is all bland and stale. It only works for a generic villain, which is honestly what Cinder is, so I guess it fits. Jessica Nigri isn't a VA, so it makes me wonder why they chose to pick her for the role. Same deal with Barbara voicing Yang. Why? I don't hate Barbara. In fact, she's one of the few at RT who I actually like. But she's not a voice actor, and doesn't do a good job at it. Why didn't they have people who were actually trained in voice acting to do the voice acting roles?
The Fan lair Why? His point basically boil down to she’s not complex. Why does a villain need to be complex? A villian need to be three things. They need to be powerful, effective, and make the heroes want to kill them. Cinder has immortal magic powers, she single handedly killed thousands of people crippled the world’s communications while sowing descent and stealing a legendary power, and the heroes want to kill her cause she killer their friend one of which she was dating. How is she not a good villain?
Yeah, I was gonna recommend this video to someone but now I can't because I don't know what that final spoiler was & I suspect it's a certain show he's planning on watching.
Cinder Fall: The problem when your character is LITERALLY nothing but a sadistic psychopath. And hey I like Cinder because of those reasons bet even I agree with these statements. Just. Don't kill her off.
I suggest checking out Draco Lord Nick's video he recently did about Cinder. It covers most of the things I've pointed out in the past. He also did a companion video about Sacrifice earlier which explains why the song belongs to Cinder and explains her motives for fighting Ozpin.
Yeah, got to admit it is pretty stupid what they've done with Cinder so far. We know more about Mercury, Emerald, and Hazel than we do Cinder. Which is pretty ridiculous considering Cinder has been around much longer than Hazel. They clearly have plans for Cinder, but it felt like when they were writing her for the latter part of the volume they forgot to take into account the experiences she went through after Volume 3 and 4. I will disagree with you on the voice acting for Raven and Cinder, although maybe I'm just a bit more tolerant of it and therefore it doesn't bother me as much? To each their own I suppose. Anyways great video, can't wait to see what you do next!
You’d think come Volume 3 and beyond they would have fleshed out Cinder’s past, what caused her to obey Salem, who she really was and all that shit. But nope. Nothing. Sigh.
Oh. My. God. This puts all of my frustration with having Cinder as the main villain so perfectly into words. The whole time - except for Volume 4 - she was SO FLAT AND BLAND I could not stand it! Roman, the guy who actually had personality and flair, getting killed off as a punch line, in favor of people like Cinder is the single most aggravating thing in the entire series in my opinion. Seeing Raven beat the crap out of her is one of the most satisfying things I've ever seen, and my fingers are double-crossed that she stays dead.
They should’ve just give her Cinderella’s backstory but with a bad ending, I mean that’s what her design is based of in the first place. She’s basically Cinderella with Azula’s and Zuko’s persona.
I swear the only way she'll be redeemed is if she survived and in some unconventional way they find out her backstory and give her redemption otherwise it's a tiny miracle for her to come back and welcomed with open arms,*if* she comes back. But again,WhY sHOuLd wE CarE?
Ugh I totally agree with you! Cinder is such a terrible character! All she needed was a goddamned handlebar mustache. Salem is pretty lame too so far. Its a shame that RWBY started off good but the important villains were so shallow that we don't give a damn about what happens to them. Roman was the best villain in terms of being interesting and at least we knew what his motive what but they killed him off right then and there! I would have loved to see more of him and Neo but no. No we got Cinder Failure. Emerald is a better villain but I don't like her enough to care about her.
Anyone else realize Cinder's eye patch is on the wrong side. She was suppose to have it on her right since before the change her left eye was covered by her hair
I tried to give rwby an opportunity... but then i give up, Blake stupid behavior, the weird plot of the series, and Cynder itself... she was soooooo cringe, I hope she is dead, she had sooooo potential... like everybody... except Weiss she is like a diamond in a lot of dirt
What I want to know is why Salem would allow Cinder to absorb all the maiden powers, it makes no sense. Cinder displays no loyalty towards her so why would she allow Cinder to eventually match her? Is she stronger than the four maidens combined so it doesn't matter? Do they only serve as tiebreakers between her and Ospin? If so why would she allow Cinder to absorb all the maiden powers and not spread it among different followers, that way she ensures at the very least that they won't help Ozpin and won't put Cinder in a position fuck her over. And on that note why doesn't she have more followers? If she is Ozpins equal how come she has so few followers and why doesn't she recruit more powerhungry women she can promise maiden powers to in exchange for their loyalty. And why is dust so unimportant? Wasn't that like the only thing saving humanity from the grimm? How come it's barely even relevant? Is it infinite? I assume it isn't since there are dustmines but wouldn't that make it waaay to important to allow a bunch of kids access to it? How come the kingdoms don't heavily regulate dust consumption? How can they possibly allow private companies to mine it and sell it to the poluace all willy nilly? Don't they recognize the grimm as a threat? Conserving dust until they find a viable alternative should be of the highest priority but no one seems to care. How come there are four kingdoms anyway? Shouldn't they just be regions of a single country? Because I can't imagine four different rival kingdoms allowing a single dude to have such incredible influence over their military academies to be able to personally appoint the headmasters. Why not just make himself god-emperor and just lead all the regions to just smash Salem's puny forces? Why allow the regions so much autonomy they declare war on each other? What reason could they possibly have to declare war on each other? They are far away from each other and the land between them is uninhabitable due to being filled with grimm. Are they waging war to become Shogun under Emperor Ozpin? Oh, and there are gods that abandoned the world but not really because Ozpin is the worst politician concievable. I'm going to stop, I can't make sense of this world and for every question I write down I think of another one related to the previous. It feels like the more you know and learn about the show, the less it makes sense.
Plot twist: Neo discovers Cinder's shattered remains and absorbs her Maiden powers, then she seeks revenge on Ruby for killing Roman. Ruby tries to tell her, "I didn't kill him, it was the Grimm!" but Neo just doesn't care, and she has the epic battle Cinder never got to have with her. But then they bond over the fact that Ruby lost Penny and Pyrrha, and they realize Salem is the one behind all of their deaths. So, Neo decides to become their friend and they go back to Beacon to get the Fall Maiden's Relic.
Wow, I was unsure if Cinder was dead or not but being reminded of her unknown fate vol 3 finale makes me think the writers really are going to bring back such a shitty character. I find it funny how a central message in the show is "moving forward", yet the writers insist on making the same mistakes and have written a character (Cinder) that reverted to her past self instead of growing up. But they are probably going to need Cinder back as I've heard several more volumes (at the least) are planned, and I find it hard to see how they're going to build up to a dramatic stand off with Salem (if that's what they want) if all the other villains are dead. I mean Cinder is now possibly gone, I fail to see how Adam is a threat now that they nerfed him (Blake literally bumped him on the head with slowmotion, yet he had the reaction time to cut off Yang's arm, where the fuck is the consistency) and I'm not sure if the White Fang will still remain a relevant threat within the show. And Mercury, Emerald and Hazel lost an offscreen fight against the protagonists, they don't seem so strong now. Vol 5 managed to make the villains look so incompetent, that it's kind of like how the majority of Grimm are absolute fodder against the common hunter. Also what scene was that at the end of the video where the woman shoots the girl? I'm curious to know the movie it's from.
Theo1290MC It could have been consistant with the themes if they made a point that the heroes learned from their mistake and move forward in spite of their tragedies, while the villains are unable to do so and thus condemned to lose. But Miles and Kerry are not clever enough to do that.
You know one of the things that hurts Cinder even more in Volume 5? She carries herself as the same smug, arrogant, seductress she was before Ruby kicked her ass...and she looks like shit. She's missing an eye and her left arm is Grimm. Nobody would want to bang that unless they're drunk or desperate to lose their virginity. And if they bring her back, I can only assume they're going to make her have even MORE Grimm features. Also, the RWBY Wiki says Cinder's status is "unknown", but why would you bring back a character if you spent so much time emphasizing her demise (showing the Maiden fire dying in her eye, showing her being frozen solid, and showing her falling into an abyss.)? Just kill her off. Her character is ruined beyond repair. It's one of the worst things this show's writing has done. Let the fanfic writers do something with her. They'll at least be competent.
It would have been great if she showed some kind of indication that the smugness was all an act that she was keeping up. Some kind of note from Mercury or Emerald... like she breaks down back into her weak mess when she's around them and she thinks Salem can't see, or Emerald notes that she can still see that fear in her eyes, growing even greater as a confrontation with Ruby becomes inevitable- but along with that fear is a deep rage. She also clearly should have broken face, even for a moment, when finally faced with Ruby. Just like you said.
Cinder's bad writing isn't helped at all by her absolutely terrible voice actress. If they had enough money to hire Vic Mignogna then why couldn't they hire someone like Tamara Phillips to do her Komari Vosa voice from Star Wars: Bounty Hunter? Or maybe Patricia Drake to do her Balalaika voice from Black Lagoon? Or anyone else that could actually sound like they carry weight, authority and power behind them? At the very least she would then *sound* intimidating rather than sounding like a high school girl desperately trying to sound like a femme fatale.
Just my opinion I like Cinder up to Volume 4 - I’d see Vol 1-3 Cinder as Confidence, has everything under control Adding any backstory that’s not perfectly written (Demonstrated by Hazel) would drag the character down Grounded and more Realistic ? Yes But Cinder wasn’t supposed to be function that way Cinder is there as an Unstoppable Force, closing in, eating the positive force out bit by bit She’s supposed to be the one high up there in the sky, the main villain (Before Salem is revealed) - Vol 4-5 is supposed to be the best opportunity to add Background Now Salem is revealed and Cinder is now demoted (Viewer Wise) to just an Subordinate She can now be grounded and fleshed up, having past, having vulnerabilities - Aaaaand Vol 5 Well...just...what you said in the video, good talk - RT should really get someone to review their Villain Writing soon
If cinder had died in the fight against Raven I think that the parallels of the season 3 ending would have been meaningful. It could have showed that her hubris got the best of her and she repeated mistakes instead of learning from them....nope we got a third repeated mistake in volume 7 instead
One of the thing I am at odds with is how RWBY has problems killing characters for good. Torchwick was jailed, but got rescued. Why? This guy was small fry, and died like a turd. He was cool-looking, but that's it. Didn't feel anything for the guy. Neo was sent off an airship high in the sky. The existence of aura made it clear she likely survived. Then most every vilain, the heroes don't kill, or they break out of jail. Torchwick died a comical death by a GRIMM. Not Ruby, but a GRIMM. Edit: Wow. Just wow. Jails in RWBY just suck at their jobs. Sure, leave the weapons right next to the cell that holds their user, why don't you. Torchwick escaped, Watts escaped, Ironwood escaped... All because CRWBY doesn't do new vilains and recycle old ones. Cinder sucks as a character. I want her gone for good next volume, or this will be proof that CRWBY only does fanservice.
Yeah, for as much as they touted the "anti-upskirt technology," they were totally okay building a character to survive off of sex appeal over interesting characterization.
Honestly, I wouldn't even complain if that's what they resorted to. That's how low this show has gotten by this point, at least to me. I still wouldn't watch it, but it'd be pretty funny knowing that Miles and Kerry realized that they really do suck at this writing role.
Man, when I first saw Cinder in the very first episode of V1, I thought she seemed pretty cool; mysterious with only glowing eyes visible at times, I liked her design and the way she fought with her powers was sick. Then I heard her speak and it went downhill from there...
The sad thing is they could have used all of that Ozpin exposition time to flesh out the villains. We could have gotten Mercury's training or even Cinder's backstory. Or some bonding before being ready to confront the Maidens.
Confession time! A few months ago, I honestly tried to find something interesting about Cinder. Gave her the benefit of the doubt. Even overanalyzed the hell out of Sacrifice, something I don't normally do for outside of show sources. In other words, I reached for the damn clouds. But aside from her compassion to Emerald and Mercury (which could be interpreted as her manipulating two people in a bad situation btw), and her revenge arc, which, as you mentioned, got tossed into the trash in V5, I found nothing. There was absolutely nothing I could find, and I felt like I wasted both my time and brain cells. Unless V6 can do something to salvage her (though I don't have my hopes up), Cinder is about as interesting as a pile of rocks.
Here's the issue with Cinder Fall: She is basically Azula, with none of the character depth or backstory. I'm guessing Monty Oum and his pals must be fans of Avatar and really wanted to create Azula Meets GI Joe's Baroness character... but got writer's block when thinking on a freaking backstory or personality beyond "I'm a smug ambitious bitch with pyrokinesis who can win most if not every battle because Plot Armor". She acts like she's Medusa Gorgon, only she has absolutely no skill at stealth and manipulation because looking at her is enough to tell she's evil. Her freaking face is practically singing "I'm the Bad Guy" from Wander Over Yonder. She also has the same issue as Voldemort: The "Big Bad so completely vile and unlikable, there's no way she'd get anyone to ever follow her out of loyalty" problem. At least Voldemort has a background that said this guy at least USED to be very handsome and charismatic, not mention having Mind Control and Telepathy. Cinder just bullies everyone into working for her, and I'm shocked Adam Taurus didn't team up with Roman Torchwick to take this bitch out. I don't get what great gratitude Emerald feels towards her, given she mistreats her at every opportunity. There's a few moments where she seems like she has a bone to pick with Ozpin over something he's done, and many of Salem's followers seem to hate him as manipulative, but given how petty and childish Cinder is, chances are those motives are just as petty and childish. She's not even motivated by irrational anger like Hazel, and she seems only marginally saner than Tyrian, so she's just a middle-functioning sociopath. Salem is way more interesting because she's basically the Sauron/Satan/Thanos of RWBY verse. While a background and explanation for her goals would be nice, she manages to be threatening and entertaining in the same way Digimon Villains are entertaining: She's amazing, mwell-designed, terrifying and fun to watch. She's what Cinder THINKS she is, and it's clear that both she, Tyrian and Hazel are just pawns. Dr. Watts seems to be the only one "in" on Salem's ultimate plan.
I think that even RoosterTeeth knows and admits it. They constantly mock Cinder in RWBY Chibi as a flat card-carrying villain, constantly yapping about her "evil plans". So I think VexedViewer's proposal that she's meant to be a flat villain might be actually accurate. She might even be a Deconstruction of such character type; she's so crazy that even a diabolical entity like Salem feels more humane and deep, in the same way people would rather watch Voldemort than Dolores Umbridge.
First of all THANK YOU. I've been saying this since volume 2. And second, I agree her being silenced was the best thing that happened to her. I was disappointed that she started talking again because I thought it was permanent. I was happy she died. We need the other more interesting villains to have some spotlight please. Why don't we focus on Watts now?
@Vexed Viewer As much as I'd agree with you that Cinder is just plain bad, there is exactly a few problems I have with her staying dead. One. Who's going to try and level the playing field with the heroes now? Fennec is dead and Corsac is arrested. Adam failed. Neopolitan is AWOL and so is Roman. Watts doesn't fight. Salem killed Lionheart. Tyrian was bested by Qrow, and didn't even kill him. Hazel is tough, but again, he's unable to do some serious damage to the heroes. Same thing with Emerald and Mercury. Meanwhile, you have an entire army of students, Ozpin, Qrow, Ironwood and his robots, the people of Menagerie, Raven and her Maiden powers, and so many more. Our villains are hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned, and to make matters worse, they can't do shit in the long run because of Plot Armor. So please, do suggest to me what alternatives to Cinder can make the villains level the playing field, and how they can close the gap so that the heroes win by a narrow margin. Two: There are several key factors that ensure that she stays alive. One, Haven is at the top of the Mountain that the Kingdom of Mistral sits on. This means that the chasm can easily stretch to the base of the mountain, which means Cinder has plenty of time to fall. Two, Cinder can thaw herself with her Maiden powers without the use of her Aura and fly back up. After all, that's how Raven froze her - without using her own Aura. She even flew back up an elevator shaft before fighting Pyrrha back in Volume 3. Three. Jaune and Ruby still haven't received closure from the death of Pyrrha, so they need to confront Cinder again to do so.
He actually agrees with all of that, it makes no narrative sense to kill her and every sign points to her not being dead (I mean, no maiden power transfer = 100% confirmed alive)
I honestly believed that Cinder was dead. my main points being: 1. She got her ass kicked by Raven. Hit by a giant boulder, kicked into another boulder, out of breath and on her knees by the end of the fight, electrocuted in the head, and frozen solid while falling. It took less to kill Amber. 2. Only two things can happen to Cinder after this fight. She either falls and shatters. Or breaks free. If she broke free that means she let Yang get the Relic. After Raven left that wound have been the perfect time to jump an armless yang and take the relic. After seeing your video i now understand how meaningless logic is. They will bring Cinder back by with some cheap nonsense and because they don’t know how to write a better villain into the story. I feel like Cinder is their “child”, you know how that one character of a story is the obvious favorite of the author. They think she’s clever, and cool and awesome. But she’s the worst cliche character in the show. I will actually lose my shit if she comes back but i also know the writers aren’t above it.
One more thing you forgot to mention, CINDER THREW HER SPEAR AT WEISS INSTEAD OF RUBY, ya know, that spear that would have 100% killed Weiss had it not been for Jaune conveniently having and unlocking a semblance that can help heal people.
Its Rwby what do you expect. Miles has ruined Rwby just like he ruined RVB after season 10. They don't have any clue how to push these characters forward when the opportunity is slapping them in the face. Every character has been very boring, Yang and Weiss are the only 2 decent characters this volume.
Agreed my dude. I love RWBY's potential and it pains me to see the characters being written poorly.Cinder got no redemption and she got dumbed down by not taking revenge either. I feel that for a villain to be captivating without a proper background, they have to highly charismatic, like Roman and Neo. Or the Joker. But this won't work for Cinder because:1. She's the generic bland power-hungry villain we've seen hundreds of times 2. RWBY is going to be a long series and assuming she's coming back, don't tell me they're gonna leave her with such a poor character motivation for another 5 seasons. Granted, they could just leave Cinder behind as an Ozai-like character (from A:TLA) and move on to the next villain, but that's a serious waste of a potentially great character with a rich back story. She's not the only problem, even Adam suffers from the same villain writing. At this point, it seems like what RWBY does is keep their characters running around in circles until a major plot point arrives and they either die or have another deux ex machina moment.
Grimm arm literally drags her dead body from the bottom of that pit back to Salem so she could complete her transformation into mini-salem, except completely devoid of personality which will ironically make her more interesting as a character.
By the way guys, there is no doubt in my mind Cinder is returning.
Good to see you acknowledge that at least. I can't wait for the salt from all the Cinder haters when she makes her glorious return!
glorious wouldn't be the word I'd use.
Well no shit, you hate Cinder, so what you'd get would be salty!
I think Cinder is going to be turned into a badass Hucklevee!
no doubt within 5 minutes of vol6.
Ironically Chibi Cinder is probably the best character in the show. And her Nefarious Plans
Ethan Hamilton
Chibi Cinder > Cinder.
Nah...just no.
Take a drink every time she says nefarious or evil.
Honestly, all of the Chibis seem to be better than their original counterparts. They all have a lot more character and more extremely show their emotions
It's almost as if the writers are good at writing comedy and bad at writing a plot or storyarc...
It always bothered me how Emerald's illusion of Ruby is of her current attire and style since at that time, neither Emerald nor Cinder has even seen Ruby since the fall of beacon Academy.
DeeperHavoc I thought about that too. I was thinking it was maybe a budget thing, but they have her character model. Just port it in, especially for such a small scene.
Actually, I think Tyrian may have told Emerald about Ruby's new outfit.
Roosell I don't think so. The Tyrian fight takes place way after that scene with Cinder, if memory serves.
sean you are wrong
Zakry esch Yeah, Tyrian had already returned well before that scene.
Found it stupid that Cinder tried to kill Weiss but then she lived, but she didn't go for ruby who was already unconscious, like what?
The Elemental Gaurdian because she doesn’t feel any threat cuz Ruby is already unconscious, so she decided to kill others first
@@x_x1765 Don't defend that shit.
Because Cinder was told not to kill Ruby by Salem.
She literally told Neo that she cant kill her because Salem told her not to but Cinder told Neo can because she doeant follow Salem
XD Productions why? Im trying to analyse and discuss this like you guys did, at least I’m not so one-sided like this video.
Personally, I like Cinder on how she is portrayed in Chibi. That goofy, over the top, Saturday morning cartoon villain.
Zminator1986 I agree
Zminator1986 Considering how flat she is as a character, thats where she belongs.
Saturday morning cartoon style series are honestly what RT seems to be more suited for anyways. They should have never attempted to do a fantasy epic.
@Zminator - I think its funny that Chibi Cinder is waayyy more interesting than regular Cinder.
It shows just how 1-dimensional and lazily constructed her character is. Truly shameful, but hilarious.
Actually, Cinder going through the same events could be potentially interesting if written correctly.
Let's say Cinder does return, this time even more fucked up with more Grimm limbs. It could eventually get to the point where in her pursuit of power, she's lost all humanity and is completely insane, and that's slowly led to her final demise.
Just a few tweaks to the Volume 5 script could've done a lot for Cinder (Actually, I think that rule applies to the show as a whole). Sigh.
Huh, that's interesting. I know I should just burn this bridge, but I'm still hung up on a possible redemption arc for her. What do you think of your theory happening, but she's aware of it and at least tries to fight against Salem before completely losing it. As for demise, I've always kinda led towards "fate worse than death", like she realizes all her evil deeds and lives on but with regrets. Idk, what do you think?
@Yankeesfan4ever100 For a character with that kind of body count and personality, you would either need a jarring ass-pull (say, she was mind controlled from the start) or her deciding she wanted to change herself, which is not bloody likely considering she is a self-absorbed megalomaniac sociopath who only cares about power even if the way she is gaining that power leads to the literal destruction of humanity.
For comparison, Darth Vader, *the* generation-defining villain, could be redeemed because he sacrificed himself in the last moment for the sake of someone else. Cinder would have no one to sacrifice herself for, as she doesn't care about any of her companions, only power for the sake of power. You cannot redeem a character like that.
I agree with what you're saying, and yeah I love Darth Vader as a character, but after all this time building her up (and the fact she's based on Cinderella) I keep having a pounding thought in the back of my mind she's coming back.
Done properly, she could've been in the same category as Darth Vader, Zuko, and Venom; characters who do evil things with understandable motivations but have good buried deep down inside. You can throw Ruby in with Luke, Aang, and Spiderman, then throw Salem in with Palpatine, Ozai, and Carnage for a better comparison.
Also, in terms of her changing or deserving redemption, I'm always for originality. If M&K choose, to go down that route, I'll run with it but, like you said with her body count, they will have to write something godly for me to fully accept it.
Also, I don't think Miles and Kerry are bad writers (unlike everyone else who claims as such) but it feels like they just didn't bring their A-game this time. Maybe it's because they wanted to write Camp-Camp, the Rwby chibi series, that Neo spinoff that releases in a few months, Rwby volume 6, AND that new mech show...and just didn't have time. However, that's not an excuse. If this is the case, then they took on so many projects at once and they just couldn't handle it.
I believe that her staying the same, along with her power lust, is her hamartia (fatal flaw). In vol 3 being smug and powerlusty led to her downfall. After she recovered in volume 4, with teaching, experience, and range, she returns to her smug self in vol 5, leading to another downfall. In short, being unable to learn from mistakes and develop is what leads to her defeat. This is supported by all things must die, where it often references evolution. The song is probably about raven and cinder and their fight. Cinder loses for the reasons mentioned above, and Raven wins , because she is said to be clever, adaptable, smart, etc.
I'm not sure about that. Don't get me wrong, that DOES sound intriguing and plausible, but they just bring her out of the blue and make her act like an idiot in volume 5 without any explanation. If they had just given her more screen time and showed WHY she was refusing to learn, it could've worked, but because we don't know what's driving her, we end up disappointed. In hindsight, seeing her act smug in volume 5 again is like hearing the same joke more than once: it gets less interesting the more you hear it, and I wasn't all that impressed the first time. Hell, volume 4 hinted at some of her human side, and many people debate that that was when she was at her most relatable, but for whatever reason they decided to just back out of it and make her act completely smug. Again, I'd be willing to buy this if they just showed us why: maybe Salem assuring her that her grimm arm was enough (...even though it made her more vulnerable to Ruby's eyes), Emerald and Mercury supporting her like usual, etc.
TL;DR power hunger being her fatal flaw isn't a bad idea, but it was handled so poorly this volume that even if it was the case, it didn't stop her from looking any less stupid.
Cinder's main flaw in Season 5 is that she is trying to be smug and sultry WHILE LOOKING LIKE SOMEBODY THREW A FIREBALL IN HER FACE.
Cinder should be more impatient, flighty and desperate to redeem herself. Just about anybody could have taken her down a peg by pointing out that Ruby really did a number on her, so she shouldn't be so cocky.
you'd think Salem would have better control over cinder after the first time the idiot failed and had to get healed.
She’s utterly delusional.
I would expect her to be more angry, at everything, then like cocky.
Like, Volume 4 has her be broken, be solidly barely contained anger as recovery, and she goes back to superior feeling queen bitch as if volume 4 never happened?
Cinder is a villain with style over substance. Some people argue about the song Sacrifice giving her character development. First, you shouldn't have to go out of your way to listen to a song to give a character motivation, personality, etc. That's just an excuse for lazy writing. Second, the song hasn't been confirmed to be about Cinder. It could be about Raven, which would make sense in some cases. And third, I don't need songs for other anime to understand a character. Like Before My Body is Dry from Kill La Kill, (Ryuko Matoi) Sekai Wo from Death Note (Light Yagami), Brave Song from Angel Beats (Yuri Nakamura) etc. I understood those three characters without having to listen to the songs about them.
*clap clap clap*
SOMEONE GETS IT!!! SOMEONE ACTUALLY FUCKING GETS IT!!!! SONG LYRICS ARE NOT THE CORE NARRATIVE, AND SHOULD NOT SUBSTITUTE FOR THEM!!!
but rwby sence the begining has had music for there char build espesholy wiess
If that's true, then the writers have elevated the music to a place that it should never have been. The fact is, no one should have to listen to the soundtrack for the character development, when the character development should be taking place within the show itself. Sorry, but AverageAnimeFan is correct: the soundtrack should NEVER be used to provide character development, as that practice promotes lazy writing. It's bad enough that the World of Remnants exist.....never mind that some of them have been retconned (AURA!).....
As far as "Mirror Mirror" goes, that is the ONLY character song that actually carries any narrative weight, as A) it is clearly about Weiss, by Weiss...and B) it is sung by her WITHIN THE NARRATIVE ITSELF.
Also, spell-check. Please use it next time.
i desagree char building should be in both rwby had great music because it does that i agree there should be more char build but to say there should be no char build in music would just make the songs mean less i think it very clever and the peaple that dont get it is peaple who are to lazy to just sit down and lision because despite there being char build in music or not the writing for the show would be the same why would peaple complain about more content??? thats stupid the more char build anywhere the better
I love that the songs have substance and information about the plot, but you are right! If the songs are canon, then M&K should drop hints in the show itself (making a paralel between the songs and the atitudes/backstory of the characters that are presented on screen, therefore linking the two).
Well, there is just one truth in all of this:
Jeff is a better writer in his songs than Miles and Kerry are in their show XD
Sorry the bad english :’)
I miss Roman
Many do i missed him the moment they confirmed his death, him a throwaway villain managed to be far more interesting than rest of these clowns combined
ironic the mute girl and the throwaway ones are the best
Cinder is more interesting than Roman, but it was a huge stupid mistake to kill him off.
Soarel gr8 b8 m8
Is it that hard to believe someone can like both Cinder and Roman and find them interesting?
It's like they're trying to re-create Lust from Full Metal Alchemist. Except Lust was actually interesting.
The thing is that Lust was always sort-of meant to be a one-dimensional character who has some nuance but mainly exists to be an evil force that acts as the introduction to how to kill Homunculus. She's an evil sadistic thing that pretty much was written to show how this group is a threat before being burned to nothing as the starting point for the entire group. Lust herself wasn't anywhere near as important as knowing there were 6 others like her out there that all had more complex characters and abilities.
And then there's Cinder.... Who survives for at least 5 whole seasons and narratively fails to act as any sort-of benchline for the group since she's notably the strongest outside of maybe Salem, all while also being the one whose defeated by another powerhouse character, keeping it from having as much impact.
dracocrusher Cinder always struck me as wasted potential. It's been 5 volumes and we still know nothing about her motives other than ,"I want power and to be feared(evil laugh)". She's based on Cinderella for crying out loud! One of the most abused fairy tale characters known to the public domain. She can easily have a backstory of having her parents die, being emotionally/physically abused by an evil stepmother or ugly step sister inspired characters.
But instead of her managing to keep a kind heart where she lives happily ever after with her prince thanks to her fairy godmother, she can grow cold due to abuse. Hell, in the original story, Cinderella has birds peck out the eyes of her abusers and they become blind beggars. I can totally see Cinder sending bird grimm after people who wronged her.
Instead, we have a flat character who serves the most fan service with a "sexy" voice. I just don't care about her and her motives are so cliche it's bad. Lust may not have been my favorite of the sins in FMA/FMAB but damn if Cinder doesn't just scream Bargain Bin Lust. Why not explore Mercury, Emerald, or bring back Neo who is (hopefully) grieving for Roman? Because after 5 seasons, I could use a break from such a bland villain.
Chaotic Neutral hardly
+Chaotic Neutral LISTEN TO SACRIFICE
Chaotic Neutral She was? I mean is the first version yeah but brotherhood not so much.
Something that I'm surprised you barely touched on is how Cinder, at one point, has Ruby lying near her and instead focuses on Jaune. And not focuses in "is trying to kill him" way. Instead, she chooses to throw her spear at Weiss, for no other reason than to make Jaune feel bad. And since Cinder chose revenge on Ruby instead of getting the relic straight away... You get what that means, right?
Cinder Fall cares more about spiting the person she barely knows than about achieving her objectives. She is THAT petty.
El Capitan Yeah that pretty much sums it all up.
El Capitan Yeah cause she’s a megalomaniac maniac... did you not get that? How is that out of character?
Megalomaniac is someone obsessed with aquiring power and feeling powerful. Cinder certainly has that trait, but she also seemed pretty inteligent so far. This is just stupid. Not even smug or arrogant, just stupid. Even if that is somehow in character for Cinder, it is still a bad thing to have a villain so dumb that they get distracted from reaching their main goals THAT easily. I'm pretty sure that when Cinder walks the street, the moment she sees some random dog she runs up to it and kicks it. It would be perfectly in line with her recent behaviour.
El Capitan maybe her character just fell out of grace. as in, she became worse than what she was before. That happens to regular people.
A hard worker in real life thaf turned into a slacker. That kind of development.
El Capitan Yeah but a megalomaniac also has a big ego that gets in their own way. Site Dio Brando and Frieza.
All of those actions are still in character.
When Cinder impales Weiss, you can literally see her walking past Ruby's unconscious body. So much for buildup.
When I saw Cinder in Volume 4 I thought she was afraid of Salem, like she didn't want to do any of the things she was doing but Salem was forcing her to do it, so she convinced herself that's what she really wanted... until it scarred her for life.
And then she made a 180 and became forgettable again
Her one dimensional nature may have worked somewhat if she was actually entertaining/intimidating, but she just feels like some tryhard teenage girl with no charisma.
RapDog62 She a power obsessed megalomaniac why do you think she needs more layers? Also she killed thousands of people plus a main character and created a giant rift between the kingdoms and shutting down practically all communications. Who much more threatening do you need her to be?
Thomas Cochran Every character needs layers, otherwise theyre not a well written character. Only simpleminded and easily entertained children like one dimensional try hard villains like Cinder
Revy's Bitch Frieza is a one dimensional character and is awesome, megatron Darkseid doomsday, Vergil. All of them one dimensional characters but still great because a villain is more than their personality.
They are their accomplishments they’re ambitions, they threat, and their relationships with allies ad enemies alike. A villian doesn’t need to have some over the top motivation to be a good villan. People often mistake having a complex motivation with being a good villain.
Cinder may not be complex but she’s a damn good villain.
Thomas Cochran Wrong, Freeza is not a one dimensional character, neither are Darkseid or Megatron. All three of those characters have layers to them, Freeza may be a pure evil galactic overlord, but he also had a vulnerable side not to mention he showed character growth in super. Darkseid is also a ruler and acts as an antithesis to superman, but he's also charismatic and intelligent and knows how and when to play his hand. And Megatron has had multiple character arcs in multiple series with Optimus Prime that delve into their backstory. Go watch Armada or Prime and see if you can tell me with a straight face that hes a one note character. All of these people are more flexible and more developed characters than Cinder who is literally nothing but a walking power trip. She's had zero growth, zero development and little to no backstory. A child with no writing comprehension skills could make this character. Shes nothing, she's not even good at being a one note character. Her chibi version is much better, at least there she's playing the typical over the top Saturday morning cartoon villain. In the series they want her to be taken seriously, but it's impossible to do so when she's so poorly written.
Revy's Bitch Vulnerable? His ego was taken down and he freaked out that’s not vulnerable. He was a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum. He was the same one dimensional asshole as always.
Also super take place 20 years after z it’s and Frieza was a great villian before he got development.
Darkseid May be charismatic and intelligent but that’s not layers. Cinder is intelligent and cunning. That doesn’t mean she has layers.
I watched prime and armada. Megatron starts a power hungry social darwinistic asshole and ends a power hungry Darwinistic asshole.
Its amazing how the quiet characters are the fun ones. cough cough Neo cough cough
E1E4 Yeah, it's like when you take away the generic dialog they suddenly become much more expressive and interesting.
That is a bit harsh. I think that the voice acting isn't always great but it is generally okay.
camp camps voice acting is amazing.
Bhume so is red vs blue's
Now let's be fair here Roman was a very fun ass villain when he was still alive
I think a reason I prefer RWBY chibi to actual RWBY is that comedies don't require continuity or consistent/developing characters. Judging from their new animated short, the team seems to struggle with serious stories and/or audience immersion.
Did Cinder even meet Jaune? I get him learning of her through hearsay, but why would Cinder ever care about him?
Cinder DIDN'T care about him. That's the point. All she remembered is that he threw himself at her right after she ascended, and that's it.
I preferred Chibi since Roman Torchwik, Neo, Pura, Penny and Ozpin original are still a part of it.
That and RWBY proper lost its fast pace that meant we could have complex arks within 3 to 4 episodes without the "tell everything at once" approach we see now.
@@soarel325 which makes her trying antagonize him especially odd.
@@fightingmedialounge519 3 year old comment but yeah the writing is a mess
I like Cinder. I like her smugness and seemingly "graceful" control of the situation. I want to see her win with that style.
I also agree with most things said in this video. She could be written way better, albeit I wouldn't get the smugness I wanna see. I've lost faith in RWBY executing a great story with the other problems they have amassed.
A really sad part is that Ruby and Cinder have literally fucked each other over in terms of a writing standpoint. A protagonist is only as interesting as an antagonist, or maybe it's the other way around depending on your preference of writing, personally I think of it in the former, and Cinder is as boring as a pile of bricks that I genuinely swear that I forgot she was a character in the show when she was fighting Raven for the simple reason that I don't care about either of the two, and it screws over Ruby because an antagonist's central goal, narratively speaking, is to achieve their goal and also cause the protagonist to be put in a place of constant pressure revealing their true nature with the choice that they make to get out of it, and all Ruby can do about it is Silver Eye Nuke the field. This is a battle between a Two Dull characters and a Deus Ex Machina. Shit.
"...an antagonist's central goal, narratively speaking, is to achieve their goal and also cause the protagonist to be put in a place of constant pressure revealing their true nature with the choice that they make to get out of it..."
Out of curiosity, did you read Robert McKee's "Story" or John Truby's "The Anatomy of Story"?
I have read "Story", and am about to begin "Anatomy of Story" after I finish "The Animator's Survival Kit", but I got the majority of that statement from watching the Lessons From the Screenplay on The Joker from the dark knight.
"Literally fucked."
I don't think you know what literally means.
Anthony Serocco shit I need to just stop using that word because that was out of sheer habit if anything
Anthony Serocco Fuck: most versatile word in the limited English language
*If Cinder comes back:* ...Why do we care?
*If Cinder doesn't come back:* ...Again, why would we care?
The only reason I've heard from people why they like Cinder so much is because of her design. I won't deny that the Soundtrack does provide...some sort of things, but that's rather vague, especially since certain songs could be for more than one character.
Like Sacrifice, some could say it's Cinder to Salem, some could say it's Salem to Ozpin, hell, it could even be Raven to Ozpin, which is what I personally believe, but to each their own.
But the fact that we have to listen to something outside of RWBY in order to understand a character's motivation is not exactly what I would call good writing. Additionally, Salem is somewhat in the same boat, because all we know about her is that she hates Ozpin...that's literally it. We don't know if she's part Grimm, Grimm Queen, or something along those lines, just that she hates Ozpin and wants to do something with the relics, which in all honesty is pretty vague too.
I miss Roman. Mostly because that even though we don't know much about his backstory, he was charismatic enough to keep us entertained, and his motivation can somewhat be inferred of survival, mostly to not get killed by Cinder, with lines like *It's not that what I have to gain, it's that I can't afford to lose!* He's fighting for his survival, and admittedly this was minutes before he was killed...Why was he killed off? Who knows. Some would say it's really vague for a character's motivation, but all we can infer from Cinder is that she's afraid of Salem and serves her, but she still quotes that she wants power, why? Why is she with Salem? Why did she agree to server her? Who knows, since we don't even know about Salem either.
What sucks is, that the most developed character in the show doesn't really deserve it: Jaune. He gets much more screen time that some of the characters, and has developed more than the characters the show is freaking named about. We see Jaune mourning over Pyrrha in Volume 4, but why not Ruby? She literally saw her die right in front of her eyes, why don't we get to see her crying about Pyrrha or Penny? Just to show that it actually had an impact on her. I get that she went all super-silver eyes, and that Ruby's the optimistic character, but that's it, she's a bit bland. I know that Jaune is a fan favorite, and maybe even a writer's favorite considering one of the writers voices him, but I think that some of the characters deserve more screen time and development, it's been 5 Volumes and I like Ilia more than Cinder, a character who was introduced in Volume 4, opposed to a character introduced in Volume 2.
Sorry if I've deviated from the topic a bit.
I like RWBY, but can't deny it's...meh, in terms of writing its story and its characters. Probably just being stupid here, but decided to voice my thoughts out since why not. Again, probably just a dumbass.
Good video, and liked.
It is literally impossible for Sacrifice to be about Raven as the song was written prior to Raven's character being written. The song has played on-screen for Cinder twice and uses her leitmotif in it. It has lyrical parallels with Divide which clearly show it is a song directed at Ozpin, not at Salem (Salem isn't ruling the world, Salem isn't the one who talks about gods). Cinder works for Salem because they have the same goals. As for why Salem hates Ozpin it's all in Divide verse 3.
Raven's character wasn't written yet? Huh. You learn something new everyday.
Well, assuming that Sacrifice is still Cinder's song, it doesn't really say much. If it's about Cinder herself, then
*What if all the plans you made,*
*Were not worth the price they paid?*
*Even with the lives you stole,*
*Still no closer to your...*
*Goal...*
Could imply some sort of regret from Cinder. If this is Cinder talking to Salem, then it could show that she's still defiant of Salem's wishes, although this isn't very evident in the series as the video points out. Also could say that she could turn on Salem at some point. Although after her..."death", in Volume 5, it would be nice to see her just go rage mode anrgy on Raven or Ruby, the two foes that struck her down.
If this is Cinder to Ozpin, that would imply a backstory between the two, like Cinder trained under Ozpin but ran away to Salem after finding a truth ot something along those lines. Or could just be a hate for Ozpin in general.
Even so though, it's still pretty vague and you have to make some assumptions, and the fact that you have to go out of your way listen to the soundtrack/go to the credits to listen to a character's possible backstory isn't exactly an appealing way to do it. Given the song, Cinder does have _some_ character, but not really much to go on without assuming and infering from the song.
Also, characters have had multiple songs dedicated to them, such as the multiple songs revolving around the four main characters. Although this could just be because they're the ones most prominent on the show...second to Jaune.
Sorry if I sound like an asshole, not really sure how to say it. Also sorry if what I'm saying is stupid.
Thanks for reading, and have a good day.
It is from Cinder's perspective and directed at Ozpin. I already demonstrated why that is the case. It says a lot about Cinder because it tells us what her motives actually are. It shows us what moral issues she takes with Ozpin and why she wants to overthrow him. Divide's 3rd verse tells us that Salem's motives are the exact same as Cinder's. And yes, the "born an angel heaven sent" part heavily implies Cinder was a former hunter before she discovered the truth about Ozpin. Hazel has the same motives as Cinder and Salem, but people think he's stupid because of all the misinformation about Salem (People think her end goal is killing everyone or destroying the world or whatever because "hurr durr she looks spooky" and they think that she is responsible for the actions of the Grimm en masse. Neither of these things are true.)
I've said this a million times but I agree that conveying important information in image songs is poor writing and it should be more clear in the show. That is not, however, an excuse to pretend that information doesn't exist. The same is true for them putting important info in WoR episodes or god forbid the DIRECTOR'S COMMENTARY or BEHIND THE SCENES INTERVIEWS. It's ridiculous. Again, though, this is not an excuse to ignore the factual information conveyed in this side material.
By the way, you don't sound rude or like an asshole. I'm the one being rude here, sorry.
Cinder does have a hatred for Ozpin, although not too prominently shown, but I guess the song does show that, assuming that it is Cinder to Ozpin.
Even so though, she stated that "*She wanted to be feared. She wants, to be powerful."*, of course, this could just be her wanting to scale up to Ozpin, or maybe just destroy everything Ozpin's built up, but it does imply that there is some other reason why she works with Salem for the power she seeks.
I acknowledge that Cinder does have a possible motive and some character in the song, assuming that it is her to Ozpin, which I guess I agree with, but there's still a good bit of her character that we don't really know. Her motivation for power and to be feared by everyone is still there, and it's clear that she's not doing for Salem's sake, or just for Ozpin.
We don't know much about Salem, other than she wants to change the world using the relics, and has an intense hatred for Ozpin for using his students as pawns on a chessboard according to the song *Divide*. She also wants to divide the kingdoms, but this could just be to cause negative emotion between them to call Grimm.
Other than using the relics to change Remnant in some way, we don't really know what her goal is. It's unlikely she would want to destroy everything, unless with an odd but good reason, like wanting to end the cycle that the whole of Remnant's been doing. A stupid example of a reason, which I apologize for, but yeah. I don't see Salem destroying Remnant or killing everyone.
Also, you don't sound too rude, more like determined to get the point across.
Just looking at how much effort she put in to destroy Ozpin's order, and the rage she showed when giving her speech about him and his cabal should tell you her main motive is defeating him. Hell, her reaction to Ozpin having a new host in V5 was the angriest she'd been since her near-death when Ruby activated her powers again.
As for the obsession with this one single line -- WHY? Why hyper-focus on one line and ignore everything else she's said and done? I see this pattern repeatedly with Cinder denialism. People ignore everything else and reduce her whole character down to one line, which in context refers to the means to her end. In that same episode, after explaining her plan to defeat Ozpin offscreen, we're shown Adam referring to her as having "a human cause" as opposed to a Faunus one (merely "wanting power" would not be well described that way), and she told him her goal was a revolution. The episode which people using that line are quoting from refutes them.
"Her motivation for power and to be feared by everyone is still there, and it's clear that she's not doing for Salem's sake, or just for Ozpin."
Again, that is just a means to an end. It is not her motive. It is how she goes about accomplishing her motive. It is clear that the reason she's doing everything is to defeat Ozpin. Sacrifice makes that very clear.
"She also wants to divide the kingdoms, but this could just be to cause negative emotion between them to call Grimm."
Just like with Cinder and power, this is HOW she accomplishes her goals, not her goals themselves.
"Other than using the relics to change Remnant in some way, we don't really know what her goal is."
Defeat Ozpin, destroy his tyrannical system (as she percieves it, it's fine if you don't view his system the same way) and eliminate him from Remnant so that it can be free. Now the macguffins are a whole other mess that's tangential to this, but her searching for them kinda makes the whole divide plan null and void. They are a terrible plot device that was hamfistedly shoved in in V4, after her regular MO had already been established. It's possible she wants them so she can permakill Ozpin out of existence or something, I don't know.
"A stupid example of a reason, which I apologize for, but yeah. I don't see Salem destroying Remnant or killing everyone."
This alone makes you more thoughtful than 99% of this fandom. You wouldn't believe how many people think Salem's end goal is killing all humans or something. Hell, a few determined idiots have put this up on her pages on multiple wikia sites, despite no actual evidence for it.
Here's the reason why Cinder is written badly: The whole show is written badly, and Miles and Kerry don't care about improving.
makes no sence with how great rwby is but ok
Monty was good. He probs had plans... Rip Monty.
@@lesnarahamilton5674 thats funny
@@nomight273 good for you not a joke rwby bigger than ever before and your small group claims its the worst show while trying to claim to be fans most hate for rwby videos can barely get above 200k views now that's funny
@@lesnarahamilton5674 oh but this. Video has 166k views bud. Rwby is just a bad story all around with no good character devolpment. If everyone in team rwby dies the only one most people will feel sad for is wiess.
I'm so glad to meet someone who agrees how Bad of a villain Cinder is. But I do wish that she maybe becomes better down the road.
I don't think she can. Because they had a chance to fix her, but then the instant they had a chance to they just immediately backed down and pushed the reset button. Cinder worked as an intreductory threat, but now that they've failed to capitalize on her early characterization, all she has left is just how she's changed by being angry. But the writers are so incompetent that they're actively refusing to put her in situations where she'd get pissed off and become the petty furious villain that she needs to be. Like Cinder should have actively been cheating and raging at Ruby and the others throughout that entire final battle, but nope! We have to give the just as boring Raven her crap instead even though this is the worst idea for a villain face-off possible.
dracocrusher I agree with you I was just saying that I hope RT could maybe turn Cinder into a villain I give a shit about. I'm a strong believer in the idea of what makes a good hero is a just as good Villain. Ruby is a bad main character so it makes sense that her villain would suck. Cinder is like how this video says. Boring she is just the same kind of villain we have all seen time and time again. A good Villain in my opinion is Roman Torchwick. Sure he didn't have Maiden powers or anything too crazy but he was still a better villain. He reminded me of Handsome Jack from the borderlands games. Roman was fun to watch,had a cool look and weapon and a solid if not ok reason behind his madness. Hell Adam is a better villain for the first three volumes until he turned into a crybaby. I'm a huge Cinder hater but even I wish that the thing I hate can become better so I won't have to hate it anymore.
+MR OVER 9,000
Agreed, Roman really should have stayed the main threat of the series. They're trying to give everything this serious weight to it and make this big dramatic thing, but that's just not what this series needed. It needed an active threat the group could fight and eventually start winning against who could constantly harass them and be this energetic presence that could grow with the narrative and become more threatening and dislikable as the series went on. Essentially, it needed a character with charisma who could, say, lead Grimm to attack the heroes or just generally be in Ruby's way as the face of Salem while contrasting the more serious tone of the heroes.
I get that they tried to sort-of make Cinder into that, but with Cinder it just doesn't really work because she's just way too powerful and doesn't have nearly enough of a personality. So while there's quite a few scenes of her doing evil deals and stuff behind the scenes, she can never really harass the main group because, since Ruby doesn't understand her Deus Ex Machina powers, Cinder would just wipe the floor with everyone in a direct conflict if her intent was to just end Ruby completely. All while at least two characters in the main group that the series is directly named after haven't even won a fight against a non-Grimm opponent before.
Agreed to be real the show had gone down hill. I hate to say it but it's true. I am a huge RT fan but I started as Achievement Hunter fan who turned into a RWBY Fan. I love the show but after Monty's death Miles and Kerry have killed the show. The fighting is passable at best. The writing is that of a Saturday Morning cartoon. The animation has got better but even that isn't enough to get the show back to the beast it used to be. But even with all of that I will still watch this show until it is finished. Sure the show isn't as good as it used to be but I still enjoy watching parts of it. I can't wait to see what they do with Neo or if they will make the main character into a good main character. I can't wait to see a fight that will make me cheer in joy. I can't wait to see who RT will get to voice new characters. I can't wait to see how this show will end. I don't talk trash about a show because I hate it I talk trash about a show I love to tell the people who make it to do better.
+MR OVER 9,000
From my experience RWBY started off on a bit of a bad foot at Episode 1, not quite living up to the trailers, but since then it got exponentially better each season until the VEERRRRYYY end of Season 3, where they pulled out a massive Deus Ex Machina that still hasn't been explained. Sure, Season 3's big plot is insanely stupid when you think about what the villains are actually trying to achieve, but it was also easily the best Season in the series, bad fights aside.
And then Season 4 happened and things took a very notable step down with a lot of problems becoming even more of a focus, but at least one of the four storylines was good? ...... Then Season 5 happened...... And I didn't think it was possible, but for the first time in the series they might have made something worse than the sketchy first season. Because while Season 1 had the cliched bullying stuff and a really weak narrative overall, at least it was short and gave people what they wanted. Season 5, on the other hand, is just one big overly convoluted mess of bad writing, failed characters, and butchered action with just some touches of actually good moments and gags here and there.
Hopefully it gets better again in Season 6, but after two seasons of letdown I'm really not holding my breath for this to get anywhere close to the highs of Seasons 2 or 3 again.
I agree so much with you, what made me like her so much was were volume 4 was (I thought) taking her. To a redemption arc or any type of change.
Nope, nothing.. so sad.
The unknown Parade Wait you actually thought she was getting a redemption arc? Have you ever watch any other show?
Thomas Cochran
I don't watch many shows now a days.
So I don't keep up with how companies do their series and movies.
It's a fresh look at shows in which I'm not tainted by "this is cliche!!" As much as others. I like it in a way.
In another tho, it's cuz i haven't found many great watchable shows for me. Other than RWBY (tho it's losing momentum fast) and my hero academia (which is gaining momemtum fast)
The unknown Parade Dude she killed off a main character and thousands of others created a giant rift between the kingdoms while shutting down their communications and has shown to be a power obsessed megalomaniac. What about that screams redeemable character?
Thomas Cochran
It was her facial expressions during the opening and the way she looked while tyrian was killing the grimm. but that would have been an interesting character and we know miles and Kerry don't want that /s
The unknown Parade Yeah because we all know evil people can never look uncomfortable when a psychopath has a break down. You can’t just make assumptions from a few instances and say their going to reverse a character’s entire personality.
Also she’s not supposed to be interesting she’s supposed to be dangerous effective and make our heroes want to kill her.
She’s dangerous cause she has immortal magic super powers. She effective cause she killed thousands and crippled the World’s communications while stilling a legendary magic in one fell swoop. And the heroes want to kill her cause she killed their friend one of which she was dating.
Not all characters have to be interesting but all characters need to serve their purpose.
Your not supposed to like Cinder your supposed to want her to die.
It all comes back to show don't tell. We feel more connected with cinder because we SEE her struggles and desires. You can't get much attachment to a character when they only say what they want. We have to see their reactions. Watch your favorite scene from any good drama twice, once normally and the second time muted. See what kind of emotions you can pick up from the characters the second time.
Tyler Smith it’s also not just seeing a villain in a vulnerable position, it’s what they take from it.
I always hated Cinder. My only guess why the writers wrote her that way (bland, static villain character) was that they wanted to make her unredeemably evil (like a villain from a Disney movie), but this just made her bland and she appeared more like a teenager trying to be edgy than an actually interesting villain.
To be fair, she IS irredeemably evil. I mean, she kinda orchestrated a school shooting in a bid for personal power, and we learn nothing that could paint her as humanizing or sympathetic before that point....NARRATIVE TIMING, PEOPLE! IT'S A THING, LEARN IT!
@@2097Pyros he's not saying she wasn't iredimeable. He's saying that's she's boring.
@@fightingmedialounge519 Yeah, we're WAY past that topic now, given they outright tried to make Cinder sympathetic. F*cking gross move on RT's part.
I agree with you. It doesn't matter how many people a villain kills, or how many 'evil actions' they commit; if they don't look and feel intimidating, absolutely terrifying or disturbingly charismatic, then you've failed in that writing department. I get none of that from her. She may as well be a teens' world revenge fantasy. If she does come back, screw fan pandering, what she needs is a complete rework and some character development, because that's what happens when people go through loses. They change, their morals change; they evolve for the good or the bad. For example, Zuko was always an edgy boi throughout the series, but what makes him so amazing was the fact that he was constantly progressing with each victory or loss; his motives, dreams, desires, opinions and overall world outlook morphed and suddenly, despite being the 'main villain' per say, he became humanized. Interesting. Multi-layered.
Doing a lot of 'evil things' does NOT qualify as character layering. It just screams, "I WANT TO MAKE SURE YOU KNOW SHE'S A VILLAIN. SHE'S REALLY REALLY EVIL. LOOK AT ALL THE BAD THINGS SHE'S DONE. LOOK." You shouldn't have to do that. Show, don't tell.
Damn, bro. You hit the nail on the head. I heard a lot of people say that her grimm arm was causing her to go insane, but then that raises the question of "why would Salem trust a crazy person to retrieve a holy relic AND pursue power?" Like you've said everything correctly and if there are fans out there who actually wanted her to be like this, I can only assume they're 13-year-olds with no understanding of good and bad, or just that delusional.
It doesn't really matter if a character is intimidating, terrifying, or charismatic if there isn't substance behind that style. (I'll admit that pulling off a properly intimidating/terrifyinh/charismatic villain is tricky without that substance, but you need to focus on the substance more than how it's expressed.)
Monster Fruitloop I would have to disagree with you not all villains need to be scary and menacing and intimidating like that
Tyler Windoloski Since you disagree, what villains do you believe are amazingly written yet aren’t like what the original comment explained?
Apart from an anticlimatic demise i think she is a great villian and pretty well hadled. I mean....she went to a change.....she was vulnerable for the first time, hass a vendetta against ruby annd in all honesty she is up there with starlight glimmer with the most despicable villians. She has a great actitude and fucked everyone up. I only hate the way she died. But well if you have me rooting for the bitch that left her familly to kill her you must be doing something right. I mean, i don t get waht you people want. For her to get reformed?. Yeah you are right, a villian has to have a character of his own and not just be villanous, but she pretty much fill the bill. You don t need a multilayered villian to be great. Discord, freezer, Tirek, the joker. All one note villians that don t need more complexity than their fucked up believes , intelligence, methods and power to archieve a goal. You don t have to give sauron a backstory to make him a good villain. Sometimes a backstory only underminds everything...like with starlight glimmer.
Shigaraki from MHA is everything Cinder should have been and more.
Cinder is wasted potential.
But I think Raven is worse.
Truth-Rationale Scientist That actually makes it worse because we’re able to look at her backstory for context of just how stupid she is. At least with Cinder there’s that plausible deniability that it was a plan gone awry or whatever.
Deciding who's worst between the two? THAT'S AN IMPOSSIABLE QUSTION, AND YOU KNOW IT!
I'd say that's actually a good comparison as they're similar characters (rebelling against and delivering "justice" to an authority figure through means that make them an antagonist) but the writing for Shigaraki is much more consistent and half of it isn't stuck in fucking image songs. God M&K are incompetent. Agreed that Birdbrain is definitely the worst antagonist in the series. Cinder is an interesting character who's been written and conveyed poorly. Birdbrain is just shit.
Wasn't Shigaraki supposed to be a badly designed villain? Like, wasn't that the point of his character?
If that is the case, and he's still better than Cinder, then yes, I agree with Vexed. You have to TRY to make a character as bad as Cinder. It's not even just laziness.
Where do you get that idea?
The..."RISE".....of cinder....."FALL"
Ah crape here we go again
Salem's thinking: ruby is a threat who knows how to use her silver eyes
Reality: 2 volumes and she still don't give a fuck about it, and used the whole last volume to learn how to gives headbutts for the sake of a 4 seconds sequence.
I argued with people about this before, back in Vol 3. I had the view that in the first two or three volumes she was SUPPOSED to be mysterious and we weren't supposed to understand much about her or who she was. She was the shadowey calculating villain in the background and the only explanation of her motives was her own, which aren't necessarily going to be the whole story. I had expectations that she would be developed further. I didn't like that she was revealed to not be the big bad, just a mook, but ultimately if she had a good deal of autonomy and respect from salem I could live with it.
But then it became clear it wasn't really happening. She's just another mook and I doubt her real character is ever going to be explored any deeper. We know all there really is to know about her, I think. She no longer has a mystique and she's no longer portrayed as being especially cunning or powerful so she's lost that. As it stands, I went from really liking and being interested in her to not really giving a shit over volume 4 and 5. I apologise to anyone I argued with about this, you were right. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the vulnerability was bad or anything and I was excited at the start of volume 4, if they'd taken it somewhere I'd have been fine that would have been development, but it didn't really go anywhere and did nothing to replace what the character lost.
I also think, we didn't see her die so she's not dead. Seems to be the rule of thumb with rwby.
Agreed. Thru volumes 1-3, I viewed her as some sort of master manipulator, an invisible hand behind many events. Afterwards, she just felt like a thug with shoes too big for her feet. Hell, Torchwick, the actual thug, was a better villain than her; at the very least, his charisma was off the charts.
Salem Andrada Specifically, it's that Roman Torchwick has better, more understandable motivation for opposing the protagonists.
Cinder being mute is actually pretty good, except her trying to speak.
Also, I think with the proper plot points. Jaune could be a good MC
Jaune should be the MC instead of Ruby.
Cinder is, after Volume 5, the proof that we can't expect high quality from RWBY.
The only reason that I can find for her sudden return of her smug personality is that maybe her fans (Yes, there is people which thinks she's a great villain) missed her old self and so wrote her back.
v4 was also proof
It's because V4 Cinder is completely OOC. Smug Cinder is the real Cinder that we love from her.
But that's Fan pandering and I never liked that because it doesn't work well and kills off good oppruntinties though it depends how much fan pandering they're doing
Her suddenly acting completely OOC is not "development", it's poor writing. They did well in giving us the real Cinder back.
Birdbrain's fans are the absolute fucking worst in this whole fandom.
And people wonders why I say volume 5 is the worst volume. They made Ruby and Ozpin useless idiots, destroyed what little good they did with Cinder, and ruined the villains in general. Bravo.
And yes, Cinder not even acknowledging Ruby was fucking there except for one fireball is beyond stupidity. And even if she didn't want to kill her because Salem wznts her alive, that doesn't mean she should ignore her! Tyrian had no beef with her yet, and he's insanely devoted to Salem, but he still tried to fucking stab her in the eye with his stinger, so I doubt Salem cares if Ruby is intact as long as she's not dead.
And even, you can take revenge on someone without harming them directly. Hurt their friends instead. If Cinder decided to fuck up Jaune and Weiss just to piss off Ruby instead of the clusterfuck we got, at least there would have been some worth there.
But no, instead we have Cinder who forgets everything that happened since V3 and goes back to square one.
And that's infuriating: if she's dead, then she's a waste of a character because we still have no idea of her motivations and didn't confront Ruby, but if she's alive she's still a waste because we have no reason to care anyway.
Exactly! Especially the last part. Rt just tied their hands with how awful Cinder is and now either things they will decided to do with her will be awful.
whitefanful it doesn't make the scene better if she tortures Ruby to piss off Jaune. It make it even worse because that means hurting Jaune is more important to Cinder than the other way around.
Which is why I think Cibder should have dobe : A) attack Ruby from the get-go, but Jaune and Weiss try to put themselve between them, prompting Cinder to make them suffer, or B) taunt Ruby as she's fighting Jaune, to make clear she doesn't give a rat's ass about him, but is doing so to torture Ruby. "Look, another of your friends you can't save" or some shit.
Cinder doesn't have to maim Ruby, though I'm not particularly against the idea of Ruby losing an eye at one point. But Cinder had to at least make clear she's here for her, the rest being a distraction.
Even her being silver eye'd could have been used better. Because if this, she panicks, doesn't want a repeat of V3, thinks she needs moar power, and that's why she tries to take Vernal's power.
ruby has always been a joke sadly but 4+ ruined her
whitefanful plot armor at its finest
93ImagineBreaker As I've said in the comments of Vexe's video about Ruby, she was still fine by the end of V4. Underdevelopped, true, but it could have been corrected had V5 focused on her, since they still had plenty of opportunities to dwelve into her character. Except V5 didn't, and what little they gave her to do ended up making her worse.
you know as much I love this show, you have a legit point with both Cinder and Ruby... sigh, stupid writers... I just hope they don't make Neo like that when they bring her back.
Neo is honestly one of the most interesting and underused villains
Neo is best girl
DKane Raikeran:
pretty much, her and Gorr the god butcher...
Redacted Flinn #2 what’s with rooster teeth and not using their ducking characters?. I just realized neo hasn’t had a role since like ever
I don't know, at least Neo does more than Salem, as cool as her design is, does she do anything aside from monologue? and what exactly is she? and what are her powers exactly? so confusing...
Like you said, I kind of liked Cinder's character in Vol. 4 of RWBY, she had such potential to develop as a character. Then it gets squandered in Vol. 5. Honestly, she's one of the worse villains in my opinion, yeah she looks cool, uses fire, but other than that there's nothing there. It's a shame because if she was written right, she could have been a good character and maybe a formidable villain. The following is just my opinion
two me she was so out of char in volume 4 but that was my least fav volume
Judai Winchester agreed she had potential and RT just fucking ruined it by giving her a shitty overused trope personality
She has been a terrible villain, yet I'm going to keep some optimism with volume 6.
@@muhammadsban2009 you mean one of the best villains.....even tow her compateshion other then salum and thats only because of volume 6 ep 3 but still today best villion is cinder espasoly incase none of the others ever do anything
I liked her all the way intill volume 5 where she fell flat
1. Odd that Ty. had no issue potentially killing ruby yet cinder who has a reason to, ignores her despite at finale being feat away so no excuse for her.
2. Again salem say why you want her alive.
3.A bland MC deserves a bland villain I guess.
Unfortunately, the villains of this series seem to be written in a way that make Khorne worshipers look like the paragons of strategy. Hell, even Abaddon the Despoiler looks more competent by comparison. Not sure though if the Orks are more intelligent than the villains in RWBY.
I'm pretty sure they are mostly due to the account of being actually cunning.
Mick824: With Abaddon, I can buy into the idea that he is cunning. He has been a commanding officer since the Horus Heresy, so he is familiar with warfare. It doesn't hurt that the authors at Black Library expanded upon his character. Now my knowledge about Khorne worshipers and berzerkers is limited, but don't they have an aversion to anything that relies on cunning. I do recall them being able to speak like a warrior outside the battlefield, and they won't turn their nose on flanking maneuvers. But, don't they black out and attack randomly if they take too long strategizing?
Archon of Plagues Oh Apologies Archon, I was referring to the Orks when I made that comment about being Cunning. As for the Khornites, I will assume it varies between the warbands on different levels of being Bloodthirsty as Fuk.
Mick824: I'll have to take your word for it with regards to the Orks since my knowledge on them is limited to "Ragnar's Claw" by William King, "Farsight" by Phil Kelly and some random facts on TH-cam.
Ragnar's Claw: The grunts were fooled into believing that some poorly disguised Space Wolves were just more Orks. The psyker warboss, which I think is called a weirdboy, was powerful enough to not only kill one of the Space Wolves, but also managed to spook the MC a couple of chapters after nearly being killed by him.
Farsight: In that novella, it looked like the Orks were smart enough to use the planet's dust storms to their advantage. However, they also got distracted by power struggles immediately whenever either their leader or technician got killed.
I may have to check out the Kharn novels to get an idea on how Khornites operate.
Roman in comparison had so much personality, charisma, intriguing dialog and hinted backstory that I was so pissed when he got axed.
I know that I said this before but Roman was a better potential for a foil to Ruby Rose than Cinder because from his last moments of dialog it really hinted at something more than 'hired henchman'.
"Like it or not, the people that hired me are going to change the world! You can't stop 'em, I can't stop 'em...You know the old saying, if you can't beat 'em-" (Roman's lines)
I honestly thought that if there was going to be a big reveal, it would be that Roman actually used to be a huntsman that realized he was fighting a losing battle and lost too many battles and loved ones to keep fighting the good fight. That would explain his 'jack of all trades' skill, his knowledge of dust resources (from constantly needing them to fight Grimm), his lack of any fear in the face of Grimm, and his constant belittlement of the RWBY team's resolve. (also his coat design is too similar to Qrows for some reason what if he was a teacher at an academy *cough*)
If Ruby viewed Qrow as an idol for what a huntsman was like, it would have been so interesting for her to also see what can happen to a huntsman that has completely gone rogue, and for good reason. Especially since from the surface Qrow and Roman are both bitter, witty, smart, secretive, sometimes angry, talented fighters that have seen better days and the worst of the worst. The difference was that Qrow keeps Ruby in the dark whereas Roman is a constant reminder of how dark and bleak it can be.
When he said "You want to be a hero? Then play the part and die like every other Huntsman in history!" it wasn't a sneer for the sake of sneer. It was a reality check wrapped with an ass whopping to remind Ruby that the life she has chosen is a death contract pending the date she finally loses.
Schane Flowers- Man, Roman had so much potential to be even more awesome than he already was. And yet, we kept Cinder Fail just to do nothing except kill her again.
That was really good and well thought out, and honestly a plot line I would’ve preferred to see
We know hardly any motivations for the villains, only some of them. Does Salem just want to destroy the world? Conquer it? Because...she..hates Ozpin?
She wants to overthrow Ozpin for his moral failings in ruling the world from secret, brainwashing its people, and tricking them so he can send them to die in service of his grudge with her. She does not want to destroy the world. Go listen to Divide's 3rd verse. As for Cinder, Sacrifice is just waiting over there for you to listen to.
Soarel That doesn't explain why she wants to get all the maidens' powers. You can theorize why but we are never explicitly told why. And Sacrifice has never been confirmed to be Cinder's song. It could easily be Raven's. Songs, though, should never be a substitute for what should be the main show's job. They should absolutely use the main show to tell the story and provide explanations, not cover what they missed in a song and expect everyone to listen to it. That's lazy.
Cinder doesn't "want to get all the maidens' powers". She only attacked Vernal after she caught them about to betray her. The original plan was for them to open the door, for her to get the macguffin, and then leave. She didn't need the Spring Maiden powers until she realized the Spring Maiden was about to betray her.
The songs contain canon information that isn't in the show. I agree it's stupid that they put important info in side material, but that does not make the info stop existing or somehow not count. It's bad writing but it is canon and should be taken into consideration.
Let me get my link dump to debunk the idea Sacrifice belongs to the Bird Moron. It is Cinder's theme, 100%.
Sacrifice has played for Cinder’s entrance in V5E7: th-cam.com/video/vi8y8PxW5h4/w-d-xo.htmlm45s
It also plays in this Cinder-focused scene in V5E13: th-cam.com/video/5A5hRP1Hkbg/w-d-xo.htmlm37s
The opening of Sacrifice uses the melody of Cinder’s leitmotif. Cinder’s leitmotif is also heard repeating in the background of the verses of Sacrifice, something that is much more easily heard in the instrumental: th-cam.com/video/gvklkApe6Hk/w-d-xo.html
Samples of Cinder’s leitmotif can be heard here if you’re not familiar: th-cam.com/video/QJo3RjyQas4/w-d-xo.html
During the RWBY Rewind interview, M&K state that Raven's story in V4-5 was only written mid-V3. Sacrifice is from V2, before her story was written out beyond merely “she’s Yang’s mom and abandoned her”. It is literally impossible for the song to be from her perspective unless the writers have access to time travel.
The question is 22 minutes in. Here’s the m3u8: rtv3-video.roosterteeth.com/store/3d381b38963b8c88d55703e894c883d7-e644bd37/ts/index.m3u8
More likely then not Cinder would've tried to kill them anyway. I'm pretty sure Salem would feel more at ease having the Spring Maiden's powers in the hands of Cinder than in the hands of a wild card like Raven who could easily betray them. But both of our statements are pure speculation so passing it off as fact is disingenuous. Regarding the information being placed in songs, it's up to the interpretation of the listener and therefore is a poor way to determine actual canon. Especially with a song like Sacrifice that seems to have two points of view being sung in it. We don't know who is who and that's the problem.
She would have no reason to do so once the door had been opened.
We know, for a fact, who Sacrifice is from. It's Cinder, the whole time, 100%. It plays for her and uses her leitmotif.
Once I saw this, I isntantly reflected on this by stopping to think about it. Genneric villan who wants power. That's it. She never changed and sounds like a robot. You'd think she'd deliberately try to gouge one of here eyes out at least. As Tyrion said, "an eye for an eye". I'm not convinced she's dead until see the body or weshe her shatter. Hopefully she eventually says screw buisness. It just got personal and goes absolute berserk whenever she sees rwby.
i really hope we get development on roman and neo!! roman may be dead but both of them are so much more intriguing than the current villains and i hope we can at least get a little backstory? please..?
I always thought Cinder is a terrible character since Volume 2. I always thought there will a battle between her and Ruby on the 2nd and 3rd volumes. But no, that never happened. You should make a video talking about how much of the openings are misleading from the series themselves.
SolidZone 26 She did fought Cinder in Vol 2, at the prom episode remember?
+Valerie Santiago Yeah, but that's not a real battle. That was just an encounter as Ruby didn't know who she was at the time and Cinder escaped when she looked away. The openings of Volume 2 and 3 showed the two fight, but that never truly happened. I thought it would finally happened in Volume 5, but Ruby fought Emerald (Which was supposed to be Weiss's opponent as seen on the openings) and Cinder fought Raven instead. Opening intros are supposed to foreshadow the events of what will happen in the series later on. Completely misleading and should never be in them in the first place if they won't occur.
I felt the same. All that build up for that Ruby vs Cinder and we get a Raven vs Cinder. What. Wasted 2 seasons for a fight no one wanted. What I've noticed with RWBY is that the writers are afraid or too uncreative to ever resolve anything so they keep things from ever resolving. Pyrrha's death was the only that changed anything. Everything else is an endless cycle of running away from resolution.
Blake vs Adam - Blake runs away. Blake vs Adam part 2, Adam runs away. (Not to mention waited 5 years for Blake to finally accept she's not alone. Hopefully she won't regress back to being a lone wolf like how Cinder regressed to her boring 'I'm like this cuz I'm eeeeviiil' personality)
Ruby vs Cinder - Pyrrha fights her instead, Ruby vs Cinder part 2, Raven fights Cinder instead.
Waiting for Jaune vs Cinder revenge fight? Well that has to happen before the 'epic' Ruby vs Cinder. Expect that to happen in Season 15. Then Ruby vs Cinder will finally happen in season 40. I have been watching this show for 5 years and it barely got to anything.
Frankly, I believe the show will lose all its profitable fans before we ever get to see anything resolved and the show will be dropped. May Monty rest in peace wherever he is.
Pyrrha dying didn't even change anything, either. Literally, no one's actions changed from that happening. Ruby would have still gone to Mistral in search of clues for Cinder, because she was still responsible for the loss of Beacon (which is enough "raising the stakes" in and of itself), JNPR would have still gone with her, as the events that fractured RWBY had nothing to do with anything JNPR was involved with, and they are close enough to Ruby that they would not have let her go alone, so the idea of "making it personal" for JNPR changed nothing of how they responded to it.
The only reason they killed Pyrrha was fanservice, because it's the "in" thing to kill off "mains" for cheap shock value. Wasn't even Pyrrha that was the focus of her own death, too. Know why? We don't see how Cinder kills Ozpin, so all that fight serves to show is "look at what Cinder can do now!". It's a weapons test, just as the Red Trailer was for Ruby. Pyrrha's nothing more than the punching bag, against an opponent who was not only bench-marked by Glynda Goodwitch in the VERY FIRST EPISODE, but oh so conveniently has a powerset that perfectly counters Pyrrha WITH NO IN-SERIES EXPLANATION FOR WHY? I mean, it's not like Cinder was tailoring herself to fight Pyrrha from the beginning, but she ends up with a powerset that just happens to counter anything and everything Pyrrha can throw at her? Seriously, they even showed us that Cinder, at one point, relied on metal weaponry...and now she can make them out of glass, negating Polarity (which actually isn't the Story-Breaker Power the writers led us to believe it was). Cinder could already fight Pyrrha effectively after being disarmed because of the Dust weaving, and then you give her a power that essentially allows her to use elemental powers without the need for Aura or Dust (we know that Maiden powers can be used even after one's Aura is broken, look to Raven freezing Cinder), and she just so happens to use nothing but fire up to that point. Fun fact: intense heat makes magnets lose their charge, and that's one way that Cinder and Pyrrha DON'T fuck with physics, meaning that one still applies. There was no possible way that you could have made this fight believably even, even to serve as "Pyrrha's last stand", except for actually letting Pyrrha receive the other half of the Fall Maiden powers. Hell, you'd DEFINITELY have a confirmation of a kill THAT way, since we'd see the transfer of the power from Pyrrha to Cinder.
I disagree. I strongly believe Blake is the worst written character
that's fair.
Vexed Viewer I mean, neither had any character progression, but at least Cinder did stuff that affected the story and character development of other characters. Blake was just there, even in the parts of a Volume that were meant to be focused on her.
Cinder didn't even lose an eye, should just had scarring. And why couldn't she speak? She was injured completely on the outside, it never made sense to me.
Reminder that Cinder was one of the losers of v3. Despite overall winning the fight (getting the maiden powers, killing Oz, destroying Beacon, and terrorising Remnant) she ends up defeated at the height of her power, and scarred mentally and physically. Her moment of glory was fleeting as a small girl she underestimated pulled out protagonist eyes and reduced Cinder to a shadow of herself. If the writers weren't going to give us a backstory, they still accidentally gave us one: Ruby had ruined Cinder, and she was going to get revenge.
It was also kind of a cool concept too. This wasn't just paying Ruby back for pain, or because she made Cinder angry. Cinder was lashing out out of weakness. Ruby made her pitiful and mentally scarred her. Cinder lost a fight and boy was it one-sided. Stakes were raised on the basis that she was getting payback. So what did the show decide to do? Minimal interaction with Ruby, fighting a character she has zero history with, and *losing a one-sided fight*. Not only is Cinder not interesting, she's just not a threat.
I've never watched this dude. I never heard of this dude. Then I saw this video and instantly subscribed. Stay awesome, dude. You speak the truth
A Nobody same with me, he is accurate and funny asf
Spoilers for volume 8 episode 10
Watts basically calling out Cinder for being a terrible character was the highlight for me.
Someone had to do it.
And sadly the poor bastard dies for it.
one of the best moments of rwby, i really liked seeing someone finally call out cinder for being a migraine
Cinder being boring is so true. A good villain who's cocky and pure evil is always fun, but she's unnecessary. When she was the shows original big bad fine I could deal with it. But we now have other villains and Salem who is meant to be pure evil. She's a generic villain who's now been overshadowed. Giving her redemption or just redeeming qualities in general would've made her so much more interesting. Like we get a sad backstory on Hazel, but do I care? We as viewers have a history with cinder and care more about her then Hazel.
Someone needs to show this to Miles and Kerry and quit making them self-insert with Jaune as the main character when he's NOT.
Opal64
Miles actively goes out of his way to take Jaune away from scenes because he doesn't want people to think he's a self-insert. Miles is actually extremely mindful of the fandom. I've followed him since he started at Roosterteeth and I'd go so far as to say he probably has extreme anxiety when it comes to wanting to make fans happy.
Call him a bad writer if you want. But saying he doesn't care or that Jaune is a self-insert is just wrong.
Kerry said that Jaunes big parts in the story were almost written entirely by Kerry and Monty. Miles avoids writing Jaune whenever he can.
It is very possible to unintentionally create a self-insert character even when actively trying to avoid it. Hell, Monty and Kerry might have accidentally created a self-insert for Miles. And now because Jaune is already created and Miles has influence on the character, it becomes his self-insert.
And his desire to please the fandom is partially the reason why the show got fucked up so badly. The writers changed the script because the fans demanded it, rather than sticking to their guns and doing what they planned. Team SSSN got shafted because fans demanded Team CVFY. If you as a writer only write because you want to please fans, then you have all the wrong reasons for being a writer. A writer should focus on creating a good story first, and pleasing fans second, because fans being pleased will come from writing a good story in the first place. The fans aren't the writers. The writers are.
Well I know that during the writing process, he cares more about people NOT liking something he's written rather than liking it.
So when i say he wants to make fans happy, I mean he mainly wants to make critics happy. Do you think writers should not write a story WITH critics in mind?
Yeah, but I like Juane as a character. The problem isn't them developing Juane, its NOT developing anybody else, besides Weiss. Ruby is pretty much EXACTLY the same, but a little more whiny. In fact, I think I liked Ruby better when she was a naive child who dove into fights. Blake has ALWAYS gotten on my nerves, and the only thing Yang changed about herself was her arm and her fighting style to pretty much become tiny-Tai. Plus, Juane is the main lead. He deserves as much development as Ruby does, its just that Ruby doesn't get it.
Mr.Orange, he wants to make fans happy? Is that why he told people who criticized the show that he fucking hates them?
Don't worry guys, we still have Tyrian.
TyrianProtectionSquad best villain eva!!!
Thank you!
TyrianProtectionSquad don't thank me, i'm just telling the truth, I LOVE YOU😍
;)
Tyrian, a knockoff joker who gets bested in the first confrontation with the villains, despite being built up as a major endboss.
Yep, great.
I like how she takes the spear and instead of IDK throwing it at ruby who was completely unconscious and in close proximity to her with Jaune unable to do anything about it turns around and tosses it at weiss
That last part really opened my eyes to the lack of cinders development over 2 volumes. Rwby is less about rwby more about killing the endless cast.
Cinder is like an Arc 1 Villain being kept alive as long as humanly possible for the sake of a joke.
Which is funny considering Roman was only supposed to appear in Volume 1 but the fans took a liking to him. Them he was axed for Salem and her faction despite him still being considered one of the best villains in the show.
Cinder Fall: keeping Ruby a live? Salem what was the point of the training you had me do in the first place if you wanted me to keep her alive?
Salem: don't ask me. ask Miles.
Miles: No spoiler questions.
I honestly forgot Cinder was in the series for a period of time
Volume 1 Cinder was mysterious and enigmatic, which made her somewhat interesting. However, this does _not_ mean that making her continue to do the same things in Volume 1 would elicit the same emotional reactions. When you see so many scenes where a given character is prominently present, it's basically impossible to make her seem mysterious and enigmatic rather than...boring.
I honestly like Cinders voice, but all your other points are spot on.
I don't mind Jessica's voice I have more of a problem with how they are directing her.
Her voice is fine. But her actual acting is all bland and stale. It only works for a generic villain, which is honestly what Cinder is, so I guess it fits.
Jessica Nigri isn't a VA, so it makes me wonder why they chose to pick her for the role. Same deal with Barbara voicing Yang. Why? I don't hate Barbara. In fact, she's one of the few at RT who I actually like. But she's not a voice actor, and doesn't do a good job at it. Why didn't they have people who were actually trained in voice acting to do the voice acting roles?
No they aren’t.
Thomas Cochran, that's yout opinion dude, but I agree with this video.
The Fan lair Why? His point basically boil down to she’s not complex. Why does a villain need to be complex? A villian need to be three things. They need to be powerful, effective, and make the heroes want to kill them.
Cinder has immortal magic powers, she single handedly killed thousands of people crippled the world’s communications while sowing descent and stealing a legendary power, and the heroes want to kill her cause she killer their friend one of which she was dating.
How is she not a good villain?
honestly the thing that triggered me the most about your video was the spoiler clips of other shows you put in. everything else was exactly right
Yeah, I was gonna recommend this video to someone but now I can't because I don't know what that final spoiler was & I suspect it's a certain show he's planning on watching.
Cinder Fall: The problem when your character is LITERALLY nothing but a sadistic psychopath.
And hey I like Cinder because of those reasons bet even I agree with these statements. Just. Don't kill her off.
Cinder isn't sadistic or a psychopath, and there is much, much more to her.
Soarel.... I think I remember you.... Yes a video discussing RWBY villians. Could I hear your arguement I'm curious as to the evidence?
I suggest checking out Draco Lord Nick's video he recently did about Cinder. It covers most of the things I've pointed out in the past. He also did a companion video about Sacrifice earlier which explains why the song belongs to Cinder and explains her motives for fighting Ozpin.
Soarel Title?
"RWBY Discussion! Why Cinder's Character Is Misunderstood!"
Yeah, got to admit it is pretty stupid what they've done with Cinder so far. We know more about Mercury, Emerald, and Hazel than we do Cinder. Which is pretty ridiculous considering Cinder has been around much longer than Hazel. They clearly have plans for Cinder, but it felt like when they were writing her for the latter part of the volume they forgot to take into account the experiences she went through after Volume 3 and 4. I will disagree with you on the voice acting for Raven and Cinder, although maybe I'm just a bit more tolerant of it and therefore it doesn't bother me as much? To each their own I suppose. Anyways great video, can't wait to see what you do next!
You’d think come Volume 3 and beyond they would have fleshed out Cinder’s past, what caused her to obey Salem, who she really was and all that shit.
But nope. Nothing. Sigh.
Oh. My. God. This puts all of my frustration with having Cinder as the main villain so perfectly into words. The whole time - except for Volume 4 - she was SO FLAT AND BLAND I could not stand it! Roman, the guy who actually had personality and flair, getting killed off as a punch line, in favor of people like Cinder is the single most aggravating thing in the entire series in my opinion. Seeing Raven beat the crap out of her is one of the most satisfying things I've ever seen, and my fingers are double-crossed that she stays dead.
"oh shit, we're actually starting to give her a personality"
"remember, just default to *S M U G* "
Wow, you've legitimately changed my mind about how I view this character.
Thanks for the good content.
If this guy changed your mind, you need better standards. Go and listen to Sacrifice
Who?
the creator of this video
They should’ve just give her Cinderella’s backstory but with a bad ending, I mean that’s what her design is based of in the first place. She’s basically Cinderella with Azula’s and Zuko’s persona.
I swear the only way she'll be redeemed is if she survived and in some unconventional way they find out her backstory and give her redemption otherwise it's a tiny miracle for her to come back and welcomed with open arms,*if* she comes back. But again,WhY sHOuLd wE CarE?
Ugh I totally agree with you! Cinder is such a terrible character! All she needed was a goddamned handlebar mustache. Salem is pretty lame too so far. Its a shame that RWBY started off good but the important villains were so shallow that we don't give a damn about what happens to them. Roman was the best villain in terms of being interesting and at least we knew what his motive what but they killed him off right then and there! I would have loved to see more of him and Neo but no. No we got Cinder Failure. Emerald is a better villain but I don't like her enough to care about her.
I love Roman as a villain but I wish the writers revealed like what his motivations were, and I feel his death happened way too soon
"You mean to tell me she was a real person this how time?"
lol
Anyone else realize Cinder's eye patch is on the wrong side. She was suppose to have it on her right since before the change her left eye was covered by her hair
This character was specifically why I never got into RWBY.
Gavin Erickson I never got into it because I could just smell the bad story a mile away😂
Ironic name. I gave it a chance.
I tried to give rwby an opportunity... but then i give up, Blake stupid behavior, the weird plot of the series, and Cynder itself... she was soooooo cringe, I hope she is dead, she had sooooo potential... like everybody... except Weiss she is like a diamond in a lot of dirt
What I want to know is why Salem would allow Cinder to absorb all the maiden powers, it makes no sense. Cinder displays no loyalty towards her so why would she allow Cinder to eventually match her? Is she stronger than the four maidens combined so it doesn't matter? Do they only serve as tiebreakers between her and Ospin? If so why would she allow Cinder to absorb all the maiden powers and not spread it among different followers, that way she ensures at the very least that they won't help Ozpin and won't put Cinder in a position fuck her over. And on that note why doesn't she have more followers? If she is Ozpins equal how come she has so few followers and why doesn't she recruit more powerhungry women she can promise maiden powers to in exchange for their loyalty. And why is dust so unimportant? Wasn't that like the only thing saving humanity from the grimm? How come it's barely even relevant? Is it infinite? I assume it isn't since there are dustmines but wouldn't that make it waaay to important to allow a bunch of kids access to it? How come the kingdoms don't heavily regulate dust consumption? How can they possibly allow private companies to mine it and sell it to the poluace all willy nilly? Don't they recognize the grimm as a threat? Conserving dust until they find a viable alternative should be of the highest priority but no one seems to care.
How come there are four kingdoms anyway? Shouldn't they just be regions of a single country? Because I can't imagine four different rival kingdoms allowing a single dude to have such incredible influence over their military academies to be able to personally appoint the headmasters. Why not just make himself god-emperor and just lead all the regions to just smash Salem's puny forces? Why allow the regions so much autonomy they declare war on each other? What reason could they possibly have to declare war on each other? They are far away from each other and the land between them is uninhabitable due to being filled with grimm. Are they waging war to become Shogun under Emperor Ozpin? Oh, and there are gods that abandoned the world but not really because Ozpin is the worst politician concievable.
I'm going to stop, I can't make sense of this world and for every question I write down I think of another one related to the previous. It feels like the more you know and learn about the show, the less it makes sense.
Plot twist: Neo discovers Cinder's shattered remains and absorbs her Maiden powers, then she seeks revenge on Ruby for killing Roman. Ruby tries to tell her, "I didn't kill him, it was the Grimm!" but Neo just doesn't care, and she has the epic battle Cinder never got to have with her. But then they bond over the fact that Ruby lost Penny and Pyrrha, and they realize Salem is the one behind all of their deaths. So, Neo decides to become their friend and they go back to Beacon to get the Fall Maiden's Relic.
Also, JUST realized this was made on my birthday.
Wow, I was unsure if Cinder was dead or not but being reminded of her unknown fate vol 3 finale makes me think the writers really are going to bring back such a shitty character. I find it funny how a central message in the show is "moving forward", yet the writers insist on making the same mistakes and have written a character (Cinder) that reverted to her past self instead of growing up.
But they are probably going to need Cinder back as I've heard several more volumes (at the least) are planned, and I find it hard to see how they're going to build up to a dramatic stand off with Salem (if that's what they want) if all the other villains are dead. I mean Cinder is now possibly gone, I fail to see how Adam is a threat now that they nerfed him (Blake literally bumped him on the head with slowmotion, yet he had the reaction time to cut off Yang's arm, where the fuck is the consistency) and I'm not sure if the White Fang will still remain a relevant threat within the show. And Mercury, Emerald and Hazel lost an offscreen fight against the protagonists, they don't seem so strong now.
Vol 5 managed to make the villains look so incompetent, that it's kind of like how the majority of Grimm are absolute fodder against the common hunter.
Also what scene was that at the end of the video where the woman shoots the girl? I'm curious to know the movie it's from.
Theo1290MC It could have been consistant with the themes if they made a point that the heroes learned from their mistake and move forward in spite of their tragedies, while the villains are unable to do so and thus condemned to lose. But Miles and Kerry are not clever enough to do that.
That scene at the end is from the show "The Walking Dead"
two years later and her backstory and motivation still haven't been explained.
You know one of the things that hurts Cinder even more in Volume 5? She carries herself as the same smug, arrogant, seductress she was before Ruby kicked her ass...and she looks like shit. She's missing an eye and her left arm is Grimm. Nobody would want to bang that unless they're drunk or desperate to lose their virginity. And if they bring her back, I can only assume they're going to make her have even MORE Grimm features. Also, the RWBY Wiki says Cinder's status is "unknown", but why would you bring back a character if you spent so much time emphasizing her demise (showing the Maiden fire dying in her eye, showing her being frozen solid, and showing her falling into an abyss.)? Just kill her off. Her character is ruined beyond repair. It's one of the worst things this show's writing has done. Let the fanfic writers do something with her. They'll at least be competent.
It would have been great if she showed some kind of indication that the smugness was all an act that she was keeping up. Some kind of note from Mercury or Emerald... like she breaks down back into her weak mess when she's around them and she thinks Salem can't see, or Emerald notes that she can still see that fear in her eyes, growing even greater as a confrontation with Ruby becomes inevitable- but along with that fear is a deep rage. She also clearly should have broken face, even for a moment, when finally faced with Ruby. Just like you said.
Cinder's bad writing isn't helped at all by her absolutely terrible voice actress. If they had enough money to hire Vic Mignogna then why couldn't they hire someone like Tamara Phillips to do her Komari Vosa voice from Star Wars: Bounty Hunter? Or maybe Patricia Drake to do her Balalaika voice from Black Lagoon? Or anyone else that could actually sound like they carry weight, authority and power behind them? At the very least she would then *sound* intimidating rather than sounding like a high school girl desperately trying to sound like a femme fatale.
It says something that she sounds leagues better on a parody show than the main one
And even then that's not saying much.
Just my opinion
I like Cinder up to Volume 4
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I’d see Vol 1-3 Cinder as Confidence, has everything under control
Adding any backstory that’s not perfectly written (Demonstrated by Hazel) would drag the character down
Grounded and more Realistic ? Yes
But Cinder wasn’t supposed to be function that way
Cinder is there as an Unstoppable Force, closing in, eating the positive force out bit by bit
She’s supposed to be the one high up there in the sky, the main villain (Before Salem is revealed)
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Vol 4-5 is supposed to be the best opportunity to add Background
Now Salem is revealed and Cinder is now demoted (Viewer Wise) to just an Subordinate
She can now be grounded and fleshed up, having past, having vulnerabilities
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Aaaaand Vol 5
Well...just...what you said in the video, good talk
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RT should really get someone to review their Villain Writing soon
And then he sees Cinder (again) in the next volumes, (spoiler) she gets what *Salem* wants BUT Neo was the one doing the work.
Neo is so short
If cinder had died in the fight against Raven I think that the parallels of the season 3 ending would have been meaningful. It could have showed that her hubris got the best of her and she repeated mistakes instead of learning from them....nope we got a third repeated mistake in volume 7 instead
One of the thing I am at odds with is how RWBY has problems killing characters for good.
Torchwick was jailed, but got rescued. Why? This guy was small fry, and died like a turd. He was cool-looking, but that's it. Didn't feel anything for the guy.
Neo was sent off an airship high in the sky. The existence of aura made it clear she likely survived.
Then most every vilain, the heroes don't kill, or they break out of jail. Torchwick died a comical death by a GRIMM. Not Ruby, but a GRIMM.
Edit: Wow. Just wow. Jails in RWBY just suck at their jobs. Sure, leave the weapons right next to the cell that holds their user, why don't you. Torchwick escaped, Watts escaped, Ironwood escaped... All because CRWBY doesn't do new vilains and recycle old ones. Cinder sucks as a character. I want her gone for good next volume, or this will be proof that CRWBY only does fanservice.
Why was Cinder's return in the finale of season 5 focusing on Jaune anyways? He's not a main character so it really doesn't make much sen-
Cinder Fall may have the worst voice actor and is poorly written but just for her character design alone she can get this D
Yeah, for as much as they touted the "anti-upskirt technology," they were totally okay building a character to survive off of sex appeal over interesting characterization.
ShadeSlayer1911 Facts, If the story and characters don't get better the only thing running for the show is gonna be the hentai!
Fuji Karo I think that award goes to Ren
I aint gay but i can see that
Honestly, I wouldn't even complain if that's what they resorted to. That's how low this show has gotten by this point, at least to me. I still wouldn't watch it, but it'd be pretty funny knowing that Miles and Kerry realized that they really do suck at this writing role.
I can't even watch the volume 5 it's so stupid.
Cinder has had 2 plot arcs. Together, they formed a circle, and she’s naturally where she started.
Man, when I first saw Cinder in the very first episode of V1, I thought she seemed pretty cool; mysterious with only glowing eyes visible at times, I liked her design and the way she fought with her powers was sick.
Then I heard her speak and it went downhill from there...
Yep.
The sad thing is they could have used all of that Ozpin exposition time to flesh out the villains. We could have gotten Mercury's training or even Cinder's backstory. Or some bonding before being ready to confront the Maidens.
Confession time! A few months ago, I honestly tried to find something interesting about Cinder. Gave her the benefit of the doubt. Even overanalyzed the hell out of Sacrifice, something I don't normally do for outside of show sources. In other words, I reached for the damn clouds. But aside from her compassion to Emerald and Mercury (which could be interpreted as her manipulating two people in a bad situation btw), and her revenge arc, which, as you mentioned, got tossed into the trash in V5, I found nothing. There was absolutely nothing I could find, and I felt like I wasted both my time and brain cells. Unless V6 can do something to salvage her (though I don't have my hopes up), Cinder is about as interesting as a pile of rocks.
Here's the issue with Cinder Fall: She is basically Azula, with none of the character depth or backstory. I'm guessing Monty Oum and his pals must be fans of Avatar and really wanted to create Azula Meets GI Joe's Baroness character... but got writer's block when thinking on a freaking backstory or personality beyond "I'm a smug ambitious bitch with pyrokinesis who can win most if not every battle because Plot Armor". She acts like she's Medusa Gorgon, only she has absolutely no skill at stealth and manipulation because looking at her is enough to tell she's evil. Her freaking face is practically singing "I'm the Bad Guy" from Wander Over Yonder.
She also has the same issue as Voldemort: The "Big Bad so completely vile and unlikable, there's no way she'd get anyone to ever follow her out of loyalty" problem. At least Voldemort has a background that said this guy at least USED to be very handsome and charismatic, not mention having Mind Control and Telepathy. Cinder just bullies everyone into working for her, and I'm shocked Adam Taurus didn't team up with Roman Torchwick to take this bitch out. I don't get what great gratitude Emerald feels towards her, given she mistreats her at every opportunity. There's a few moments where she seems like she has a bone to pick with Ozpin over something he's done, and many of Salem's followers seem to hate him as manipulative, but given how petty and childish Cinder is, chances are those motives are just as petty and childish. She's not even motivated by irrational anger like Hazel, and she seems only marginally saner than Tyrian, so she's just a middle-functioning sociopath.
Salem is way more interesting because she's basically the Sauron/Satan/Thanos of RWBY verse. While a background and explanation for her goals would be nice, she manages to be threatening and entertaining in the same way Digimon Villains are entertaining: She's amazing, mwell-designed, terrifying and fun to watch. She's what Cinder THINKS she is, and it's clear that both she, Tyrian and Hazel are just pawns. Dr. Watts seems to be the only one "in" on Salem's ultimate plan.
DeathΩMessenger You narrowed that down beautifully, I couldn't said it better myself.
I think that even RoosterTeeth knows and admits it. They constantly mock Cinder in RWBY Chibi as a flat card-carrying villain, constantly yapping about her "evil plans". So I think VexedViewer's proposal that she's meant to be a flat villain might be actually accurate. She might even be a Deconstruction of such character type; she's so crazy that even a diabolical entity like Salem feels more humane and deep, in the same way people would rather watch Voldemort than Dolores Umbridge.
First of all THANK YOU. I've been saying this since volume 2. And second, I agree her being silenced was the best thing that happened to her. I was disappointed that she started talking again because I thought it was permanent. I was happy she died. We need the other more interesting villains to have some spotlight please. Why don't we focus on Watts now?
@Vexed Viewer As much as I'd agree with you that Cinder is just plain bad, there is exactly a few problems I have with her staying dead.
One. Who's going to try and level the playing field with the heroes now? Fennec is dead and Corsac is arrested. Adam failed. Neopolitan is AWOL and so is Roman. Watts doesn't fight. Salem killed Lionheart. Tyrian was bested by Qrow, and didn't even kill him. Hazel is tough, but again, he's unable to do some serious damage to the heroes. Same thing with Emerald and Mercury.
Meanwhile, you have an entire army of students, Ozpin, Qrow, Ironwood and his robots, the people of Menagerie, Raven and her Maiden powers, and so many more. Our villains are hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned, and to make matters worse, they can't do shit in the long run because of Plot Armor. So please, do suggest to me what alternatives to Cinder can make the villains level the playing field, and how they can close the gap so that the heroes win by a narrow margin.
Two: There are several key factors that ensure that she stays alive. One, Haven is at the top of the Mountain that the Kingdom of Mistral sits on. This means that the chasm can easily stretch to the base of the mountain, which means Cinder has plenty of time to fall. Two, Cinder can thaw herself with her Maiden powers without the use of her Aura and fly back up. After all, that's how Raven froze her - without using her own Aura. She even flew back up an elevator shaft before fighting Pyrrha back in Volume 3.
Three. Jaune and Ruby still haven't received closure from the death of Pyrrha, so they need to confront Cinder again to do so.
He actually agrees with all of that, it makes no narrative sense to kill her and every sign points to her not being dead (I mean, no maiden power transfer = 100% confirmed alive)
I honestly believed that Cinder was dead. my main points being:
1. She got her ass kicked by Raven. Hit by a giant boulder, kicked into another boulder, out of breath and on her knees by the end of the fight, electrocuted in the head, and frozen solid while falling. It took less to kill Amber.
2. Only two things can happen to Cinder after this fight. She either falls and shatters. Or breaks free. If she broke free that means she let Yang get the Relic. After Raven left that wound have been the perfect time to jump an armless yang and take the relic.
After seeing your video i now understand how meaningless logic is. They will bring Cinder back by with some cheap nonsense and because they don’t know how to write a better villain into the story. I feel like Cinder is their “child”, you know how that one character of a story is the obvious favorite of the author. They think she’s clever, and cool and awesome. But she’s the worst cliche character in the show. I will actually lose my shit if she comes back but i also know the writers aren’t above it.
One more thing you forgot to mention, CINDER THREW HER SPEAR AT WEISS INSTEAD OF RUBY, ya know, that spear that would have 100% killed Weiss had it not been for Jaune conveniently having and unlocking a semblance that can help heal people.
Breaking news: Rooster Teeth still doesn't know how to write her
Wish they bought back Roman instead of Cinder
Cinder's motivation is the guys at RT think Jessica Nigri is hot and want an excuse to interact with her.
Its Rwby what do you expect. Miles has ruined Rwby just like he ruined RVB after season 10.
They don't have any clue how to push these characters forward when the opportunity is slapping them in the face. Every character has been very boring, Yang and Weiss are the only 2 decent characters this volume.
Agreed my dude. I love RWBY's potential and it pains me to see the characters being written poorly.Cinder got no redemption and she got dumbed down by not taking revenge either. I feel that for a villain to be captivating without a proper background, they have to highly charismatic, like Roman and Neo. Or the Joker. But this won't work for Cinder because:1. She's the generic bland power-hungry villain we've seen hundreds of times 2. RWBY is going to be a long series and assuming she's coming back, don't tell me they're gonna leave her with such a poor character motivation for another 5 seasons. Granted, they could just leave Cinder behind as an Ozai-like character (from A:TLA) and move on to the next villain, but that's a serious waste of a potentially great character with a rich back story. She's not the only problem, even Adam suffers from the same villain writing. At this point, it seems like what RWBY does is keep their characters running around in circles until a major plot point arrives and they either die or have another deux ex machina moment.
I feel that they'll bring Cinder back.
The real question is, what kind of BS are they going to use in order to explain her return?
Grimm arm literally drags her dead body from the bottom of that pit back to Salem so she could complete her transformation into mini-salem, except completely devoid of personality which will ironically make her more interesting as a character.
And this nothing character killed Pyrrha