The Ross in the Great War: The Mk III (and MkIIIB)
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While the MkII (1905) iteration of the Ross rifle had resolved most of the major mechanical problems form the MkI, it retained a number of characteristics that the Canadian (and British) military was not fond of. In particular, it was not suited to the use of stripper clips. Starting with experimentation on sporting rifles, Ross substantially redesigned the action for the final 1910 pattern - aka the MkIII.
The MkIII used a rotating bolt as before, but with six locking lugs in two rows of three, instead of two large lugs as the MkI and II. The magazine was replaced by a conventional single-stack design, with a stripper clip guide built into the receiver, and with a nicely adjustable rear aperture sight. This would be the model to equip the Canadian infantry who went to Europe to fight in 1914 and 1915 - and it is there that a new set of problems would begin to plague the Ross.
In keeping with its sporting legacy and reputation for outstanding accuracy, the MkIII Ross was made with a rather tight chamber, optimized for the excellent-quality Canadian production .303 ammunition. Britain had been forced to massively increase ammunition supply as the war lengthened, and British standards had widened to accept ammunition that was really of rather questionable quality. The SMLE rifles used by British forces had chambers made to accommodate this, but the Rosses did not. Canadian ammunition was supposed to follow the Canadian troops, but it was usually diverted to other services because of its high quality, and the Canadians left with ammo that was difficult to chamber or extract in the Ross.
This led to men having to beat open rifle bolts, which led to damage to locking lugs, in a viscous circle of escalating problems. By the time of the German gas attack at Ypres, Canadians were ditching their Rosses for Lee Infields by the thousands, despite specific orders to the contrary. General Haig finally had enough of the issues, and ordered the Ross removed from combat in 1916, to be replaced by the SMLE (which was finally available in sufficient numbers to arm the Canadian troops).
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Ian: "i try to spread out videos about related content"
Also Ian: *makes a Ross marathon*
me: *violently watches every single one*
Personally I welcome the new Forgotten Ross Rifles channel.
Withdrawal symptoms
*whispers silently* “Berrrrrrrrgmaaaaaaaannnnnnnnn”
hey when do i start laughing ???
How do you violently watch a video.
I think "Stairway Guy" is going to have as much of a following as "Fireplace Man" and his collection.
Thanks for all the fun, Ian.
December 2019 Q&A : Who has a larger collection, Fireplace Guy or Stairway Guy?
@John Anon: He mentioned in some video that he was going to film / had filmed some videos on the Ross rifles during a trip up to Canada, so this is not his house. Unless that's just what he wants us to believe so we don't figure out that he has become unfaithful to his French collection (although one could argue that Canada is at least partially French related, so that might still count) XD
It wasn't just the Home Guard who were issued with Ross Rifles in WW2. During the Dunkirk evacuation, no less a soldier than Spike Milligan found himself manning an artillery observation post near Bexhill: according to "Hitler: My Part in His Downfall", the only small arm the OP crew had between them was a Ross rifle with five rounds of ammunition. Probably the only reason why his battery was on the coast at all, was that somebody in London thought that 9.2" howitzers were the same sort of thing as 9.2" Coastal defence guns, which they were not. The coastal defence gun had about twelve times the muzzle energy of the howitzer and the chances of hitting a moving warship or landing craft with the subsonic shell of the latter must have been minimal. A video on the 9.2" Coastal Defence Gun would be interesting: introduced in 1895, it fired a 380lb shell at pretty much the same muzzle velocity as a 1943 17 pounder anti-tank gun. In WW1, the Greek Navy won two important battles on the strength of having a single armoured cruiser with four of the sea-going variant of this gun. The RHS Georgios Averof is still officially in commission and could be visited, should Forgotten Weapons want a working holiday somewhere warm.
Cool, I have a 9.2 inch FFE shell at home
I visited Athens back in September last year and popped along to see the Averof - it's surprisingly small. The guns are now pointed at super-yachts, which raises the possibility of the Greek government reactivating the ship for anti-superyacht duty. There's a bunch of Lee-Enfield and other small arms in the below-decks spaces. It's apparently still used for conferences and ceremonies etc.
@@AshleyPomeroy Thank you! This is how a 9.2" was fired from a coastal emplacement; it must have been something of a fiddle on a relatively small ship in even a moderate sea! th-cam.com/video/idOpp1rAGLE/w-d-xo.html
As built, the Glorious-class cruisers went one better, being armed with four 15" guns or two 18" guns. The trouble with the latter and their 3,000lb shells was pretty obvious, the trouble with the former is that four main guns didn't give you enough ranging shots to get the range before that range changed. The moment the Royal Navy got the idea of an "aircraft carrier" it was pretty obvious which cruisers were going to get converted, and they were!
The British: 'Eh, this ammo is vaguely close to spec.'
Also the British: 'Your rifle is crap because it doesn't like our garbage ammo. This is your fault, Canada.'
When your soldiers throw it away to grab something that works, it's garbage.
@@neutronalchemist3241 because the out of spec, garbage ammo jammed the gun. If my M16a4 or M27 would have had an out of spec cartridges jamming my weapon so severely that I couldn't retract the bolt and there were others laying around, I would pick up a different one too. Fix a severe jam, wasting time and risking death or pick up one off the ground and continue fighting... the choice is simple.
@@XShifty0311X The ammos were in perfect spec, and infact they worked fine with every other weapon, bolt action or automatic, chambered for them. Simply the manufacturer of the rifle, knowing the real dimensions of the cartridges, said the rifle was fine that way.
"Every man wielded an Mk III Ross rifle, with some unease. Overseas, the gun had jammed in close combat during the Second Battle of Ypres. It was claimed the rifle was too finely made to tolerate mud and rough handling. There is truth to this, but the fatal flaw was a specific and avoidable mistake. Before the war, the British re-designed the .303 cartridge, rechambering their Lee-Enfields to a slightly larger size than the Ross. Canadian experts said the chamber of the Ross was already large enough to take the new British ammunition in a pinch, and the tighter fit could only increase accuracy anyway. The chambers were not reamed out. It was all about the money. Besides, the experts said, the men would have Canadian ammunition of the right size, so it hardly mattered." www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=4114
@@neutronalchemist3241 "But, the British Army took all the Canadian-made .303 ammunition away from the first Canadian troops when they arrived in Britain and issued it to their machine guns at the front where it worked quite well. The poorly made British ammunition issued to Canadians in return was responsible for the tragic story of the Ross to follow." Quite literally the next paragraph. Not saying the Ross was a great or magnificent or perfect rifle but when then next paragraph of the article you are quoting in an attempt to prove a point agrees with your opposition; that the cheap British ammo was a major flaw, so much so that the British didn't want to use it in their own weapons, you probably shouldn't quote it and share the link.
@@LilSwinney The Canadians could have required to use their own ammos, had they thought they were necessary for their rifles to work. It was not like they had no say in the matter, but, as already said, "Canadian experts said the chamber of the Ross was already large enough to take the new British ammunition in a pinch, and the tighter fit could only increase accuracy anyway". If they didn't tell the Brits their rifles were useless without their ammunitions, are them the idiots, not the Brits.
If I recall James McBride talked about the Ross remaining in service as sniper rifles. "The Riflemen Went to War"
Yes, they did - and I have a couple Ross sniper videos coming in the next few months.
@@ForgottenWeapons I live in The Netherlands, so gun control is very tight over here :(
But Luckily I got your video's to enjoy :D
@@ForgottenWeapons On this channel or InRange?
@@ForgottenWeapons Obligatory "Forgotten Ross" comment
*Herbert McBride
There was an automatic rifle conversion called the Huot. I think the few that were made are in Canadian museums. Not sure if they'd let Ian take a look at them, though.
That happened a while ago,shoots it and everything check out the video it's cool AF
I have a Huot video coming next month.
@@ForgottenWeapons 👀💦
@@ForgottenWeapons Awesome! Was hoping to see how that conversion works.
@@ForgottenWeapons You're too good to us.
My dad used one in the home guard, they loved the accuracy on the few occasions when they were allowed to live fire however they hated the weight when marching. Like a lot of British troops he was a fetishist of the SMLE for it's handling prowess. He also used P14 in 30-06 too, The armorers marked the rifle butts with a red strip on those to avoid ammunition confusion.
The P14/ 17 bayonet also has two vertical grooves on either side so you have a large tactil obvious diffrence from the SMLE bayonet.
Ben Davies my dad was in home guard as well, and did train with the Ross, don’t know which model, but he told me the the bolt handle was reversible for left handers, don’ know if that is true though.
@DOUG HEINS he called it P14 but you are correct it would have been an M1917 from the US as war aid.
Ben Davies I have in my collection an M1917 with the red stripe. It was sent to Canada.
That an incredible piece of history you hold there. That rifle belonged to the first Commanding Officer of the Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry
"Rifleman Went to War" goes into the ammunition issues. I believe the book is still available if not still in print.
I looked into after your post and apparently it is out of print at this time.
Excellent book by and about one hell of a man.
Amazon Kindle $1.27
@@ianstobie I might have to get that. I had to give the hard copy back.
Interesting that what probably made it a good sniper rifle (tight tolerances) also made it less than reliable with poor ammunition. Another one of the compromises that needs balancing when designing a firearm. Do you go with a finely tuned machine that chokes on the first sub-standard round or a rugged rifle that will take a beating and keep on ticking but measures its MoA in feet rather than inches. Before the inevitable counterpoints, I am fully aware that is a gross exaggeration.
As a Canadian, we need a heritage moment about exploding Ross rifles... And a hinterland's who's who about Ian
Those used to be on TV all the time in the 90s. Apparently they're still being made.
@@RGDcommentnode Modern day Ross replication? Does it come with improvements or is it 1:1 remake?
@@ArcturusOTE It doesn't require improvement rn imo. The problem was it was a sports rifle rather than military and performed poorly when you got mud in it
I smell burnt toast...
My house hippo agrees
...' the problems would snowball' I see what you did there Ian; subtle Canadian humour.
Canadian Snipers adored their Ross rifles because they were extremely accurate, and the straight pull allowed them to cycle the action without disturbing their positioning or sight picture, reducing the chance of being seen and allowing them to make rapid follow up shots on multiple targets. Since snipers are known to take much better care of their weapons than regular infantrymen, they were far less affected, or not affected, by the issues that got the Ross pulled from frontline service.
@@justforever96 I have it in one of my books on the subject of snipers. I could look it up although it might take a while. The fact that Ian's example is a hundred some odd years old and and isn't necessarily a matching example could be a factor as well.
The rifle with proper ammo and proper maintenance is a high degree of accuracy rifle in fact some of the best snipers in the Commonwealth forces in both world wars used it!
As a Canadian, I'd be quite interested in a video the covers what happened to the Ross factory.
One of the sexiest bolt action rifles of all time, to me at least; I especially love the magazine. As a Canadian, I really need to get around to getting my license so I can get myself one of these.
These old ross rifles are great they are very strong and have perhaps the best iron sights ever made I actually leave my 300 mag in the safe and grab my old m10 when I go moose hunting . Its as canadian as it gets and the 303 british is a totally underrated preformer .
I also only hunt with .303 taken everything with 1 shot.
Canada has a history of buying factories in order to close them.
And pipelines.
And Clodhoppers, dammit.
Hmm, it looks like we need another video on the Ross 1907 Scotch Deer Stalker! It bridges the development gap nicely between the Mk 2 and Mk 3.
That MKIII with the darker stock is beautiful :)
After the Lee-Enfield replaced the Ross rifle, it was continued in use as a sniper rifle. This may explain why there are examples stamped with '1917' and '1918'. My grandfather used one as a sniper with the 73rd Battalion Royal Highlanders of Canada in 1916/1917 until his battalion was broken up as replacements when it was reduced to 1/4 strength after Vimy. After that he retrained as a medic. He told me about the problems with the Ross rusting quickly, jamming, and being easily affected by getting dirt in the action. He said that he and his mates envied their enemy's Mauser rifles.
I thank you sir. One of the items I missed out on years ago was a free Ross. Some rotter beat me to it. Once had a similar experience with a free M2 BMG. Was taken off a crashed Lancaster Bomber in the Netherlands and hid up in a barn loft. It had sat there for over 50 years. When I looked into scooping it I learned it was given to the Dutch authorities not 1 year previous. Darn! Assume all collectors have similar tales to tell.
any chance of a video about the m16a2 program and how the Canadians developed the C7 from it?
I thought it was the A3 it was developed from.
Isn’t the A2 burst only?
I have had and still have a number or Ross rifles of both models. including a .280 sporter. A friend who also collected Ross rifles and I have tried numerous times to get a M10 together wrong and have never succeeded. I have a Canadian soldiers handbook from WWII and it has a section on the care and feeding of the M10 Ross Canadian veterans I have talked to said they had Ross Rifles in the interwar years. They apparently cleaned up as a match rifle in the years after WWI I understood that it was the bolt stop on the M10 that was soft and peened causing the problems. I don't guarantee that is gospel Great video series on the Ross, Thank you
I have heard that snipers liked it because it was accurate.
well after all it was designed as a sporting rifle, so its intent was accuracy and precision
They were also supplied with higher quality, more consistent ammunition, so didn't experience the same issues as ordinary troops. They may also have taken better care of their guns than the average soldier.
I have 2 m10s... very accurate. Sadly they were sporterized and I lost one of the stocks in a house fire
@@tritowns That's terrible, but by the phrasing it sounds like you managed to safe the guts/action after the fire? If so that's pretty cool.
@@BleedingUranium yup. One of these days my son and I will look at building a stock for it.
time to embrace my canadian heritage
*gets hit in face with exploding ross rifle bolt
And that's why Jacques Plante started wearing a face mask.
I wish you could find these for half decent prices here. I’ve seen sporterized stock rifles go for 600
Smokey i found one for 200, sadly i passed
Jeez id sell you mine sporterized for $250
Cartridge changes that caused problems. That sounds familiar....*looks at the chauchat*
Thank you Ian , I love the Ross Rifle , My Father had one in WW-2 , on getting it cleaning it and firing it, it had to go in and have its sights adjusted as they where way off . But then again I also love the Mars pistol lol ,
My friend and I found this rifle in 1981 near the city of Rzhev (USSR). It lay underground for about 40 years, but is perfectly preserved. We even managed to fire a few shots. I believe that this came to the Soviet Union under Lend-Lease. A rare specimen.
Canadian Military: Stop throwing away your broken rifles, keep using them.
Canadian Troops: F*** that, there’s Germans coming, I’m using a rifle that works.
Fun fact: The ancient video Ian refers to was cited by an academic whose book concerned Canadian procurement. Look for Charlie Foxtrot by Kim Richard Nossal.
Fascinating, a lot of info I hadn't heard yet. Thanks for the series.
Are all these Ross rifles from the past three videos in someone's private collection in Canada? Because this is like seeing a whole herd of unicorns in the wild.
They are from several private collections, the owners of which were kind enough to let me film them all together.
I brought my 1918 SMLE and 1916 Ross Mk. III to a punishing day at the range. In the end, the thicker and longer Ross barrel became a wearying thing to wield. A few times the built-in Ross magazine would stick if I pushed too hard on the stripper clip such that the follower would stay down. The only way to spring it back up was to poke a long very thin rod in through the hole at the bottom aft part of the magazine. Maybe in a new rifle this may not happen but the magazine parts were so easy to put out of alignment whereas the Lee magazine could be dropped out and replaced. The Ross magazine also has far too many moving parts.
Speaking of loading, the 5 round Ross magazine meant I had to stop to reload twice as often as the SMLE for obvious reasons.
The purists may balk but I threw a small bit of soft dirt into the working of both rifles at one point. The Lee still shot. The Ross’ fine and tightly made bolt could not seat the cartridge in the breach and it was irritating getting bits of dirt out of the receiver’s hard to reach teeth. In a battle with flung dirt from artillery fire or crawling in panic under barbed wire this would be a worry.
The ergonomics are also not as comfortable. The Ross’ wood is fatter. The SMLE slimmer.
All together by the end of a long shoot going back and forth between rifles I started to really just want the Lee. It is handier and less finicky. Taken globally across a whole army one can see why the Canadians soon started to covet the Lee used by the Australians, British, Newfoundlanders, New Zealanders, Indians and such they encountered.
I image that stories - even if exaggerated in the retelling as stories often can be - of a private stomping desperately on his bolt handle to extract a case while the Germans were bearing down on him with fixed bayonets spread much horror.
I have never had an issue with my Ross’s bolt. Inserting the bolt is not so much of an issue. Taking the complicated bolt assembly apart is. It is here where things can relatively easily be put back together incorrectly. At home on a bench this is no problem. Also, there are two visual ways and one obvious tactile way to know if the bolt cam is locking properly. With shaking fingers, fear, noise and hurry maybe less so.
In reality the need to strip the bold in the field in action should not have been common, but given I need to use two hands and my tongue held just right just to get the bolt assembly back into the Ross’ receiver whereas the SMLE bolt goes back in easily is a testament to a rifle that was not troop friendly.
Troops deserve the handiest arm they can get to survive war. Once opinion turned against the Ross and old stories of the very rare bolt accidents were overblown as a populist means to disparage the rifle, the end of its use as a service arm was inevitable. Probably rightly so.
It’s a shame that a very fine hunting and sporting piece was shoehorned into a service rifle where a tiny bit of better accuracy and so-called faster re-cocking trumped robustness and simplicity. The Ross was famous for winning precise shooting competitions, but at 400 yards an inch or two one way or the other of a British .303 bullet hitting centre of mass doesn’t much matter. Snipers would have a different opinion of course. They may only get presented with a small part of someone for a moment to take a shot at.
I said ‘so-called faster re-cocking’ above with reason. The straight pull is faster than the SMLE, but that advantage is lost in having to reload twice as often. Clearly not well thought through.
In the end, for my day out, the Ross was a more tiring rifle with a few moments of irritation. I’ve obviously not fought in the trenches of France, but to me the attraction of the SMLE is obvious. However, if I want a lazy day at the range here in peaceful Canada the Ross is just the thing! Mine has been partly sporterized but it still attracts penalty of attention.
Thank you for sharing your experience with both rifles, Terry. I found your observations and comments to be quite insightful. From here in not-so-peaceful US.
Well done series Ian! Great job!
Thoroughly enjoyed these videos. As a Canadian it’s pretty cool to see the history of this unique Rifle. Straight pull action is very interesting always wondered if that improved the speed at which follow up shots could be made. Thanks Ian. Love the history in your videos. Cheers!
C&Rsenal has a really good, in depth video on the Ross MkIII
Thank you for the show. I have a1910 Ross that has been sporterized great shooting, just very heavy to take hunting.
Thank you for this series
Everyone should watch the C&Rsenal video on the Ross rifle. It's fantastic.
Ian describing the stuck case troubleshooting reminds me of every problem my Grandfather and I have ever solved.
Great video series of the 1903, 1905 and 1910 Ross Rifles, Ian. You make mention of the large chamber for the MK III, but it is a somewhat or little known fact that a good portion of the MK II 3* rifles supplied to the US also had their chambers altered to the same specifications. I own one made in 1909, supplied to the US, and has that same alteration. Shoots great, but fire forms the brass to something that looks more like a Weatherby shoulder than a standard .303. Thanks again!!!
Excellent informative video!!
im so glad i have one of these just for the interesting history behind it. mine had been previously modified to fit a rail for a sight. its a very accurate rifle but i could see why it wouldnt be ideal out in the field especially back then with limited resources and info on how to properly maintain them.
Thanks for this vid Ian !!!
Although yanked from general service in 1916, Canadian snipers would continue to use the Ross till the end of the war
All of the patterns of the Ross, Ian?
HUOT GUN or Nothing!
Here's a hypothetical concept for the armament of an early '40s army.
Rifle: Ross Mk. III (later improved model)
LMG: Vickers Berthier Mk. III
SMG: Owen
Sidearm: GP-35
Shotgun: Winchester 97
I always enjoy your videos
Main things that aided it as a sniper rifle were that Canadian snipers were issued the best ammo available (Canadian tolerances), and the slower and more deliberate shooting of a sniper meant the bolt issues were few and far between, and much less likely to be lethal.
Basically countered the two biggest problems. Could have easily been used through WWII but by the '30s it was well past its due date in any form, as it was no longer being developed. Had Ross been given a sniper rifle contract perhaps it could have been used through WWII. It was, afterall, incredibly accurate in its era and the accuracy and smoothness likely could have been improved on in a dedicated sniper variant.
Thank you , Ian .
On the Canadian Veterans website Lt Col Farquhar (the owner of the rifle) full service history, bio, and the newspaper articles mentioning him are posted. He was decorated with the DSO and twice mentioned in dispatches. He served in the same regiment I did. He was killed in action with 22 of his men sometime in Feb 1915 in france. His final resting place is also identified. Search up his name and you can read up on his records.
I have one that was re-chambered to .303 and holy crap, it is fun to shoot and stupid accurate. Mine also has the same aperture sight, and can ring steel at 300yds. My eyes ain't so great anymore lol.
I owned a M-10 Ross for a few years, 1915 date on the stock and the L.C. mark over the chamber and they weren't kidding. Case necks on fired rounds were grossly expanded and also out of round, not surprising since the work was done by field armorers working in haste. Nevertheless, it was surprisingly accurate and I took a few whitetails with it.
I have one of these with a “hg” home guard marking on it, one of my absolute favourites.
Love my Ross m/3. Fun to shoot and heavy enough to use as a club.
One of the biggest "what if" stories of the war isn't it.
How much more effective would the Canadians have been if they had had a rifle that ran rock solid reliably (either a Lee-Enfield or a Ross with all the kinks worked out) right from the start as opposed to in 1916..
The war would've been done by August '14.
Well as it was, the 4-division Canadian Corps became Haig's fire brigade by 1917, bailing him out of a couple of jams, and considered by the Germans to be the British Army's most elite formation, who's location at the front had to be kept secret because it meant a high priority assault was coming. Led in the final year by a real estate broker originally from Strathroy Ontario, probably WW1's best allied general, Arthur Currie.
well done Ian as a user of a ross MKIII everything you say is correct
I actually have an original Ross Mk III R-10 Civilian Sporting Carbine. Hands down, the smoothest bolt action I have in my collection, and that's surprising for a straight pull. Still, the speed gains over the No. 4 Mk I is minimal, as I'm good at speed cycling Enfields.
Great video series. Made me go back and watch Otias and your previous videos. 😊
Thanks that was a interesting look into the Ross rifles. Can't help but think it would have been no more difficult to design a semi-auto rifle. Certainly no more machine time.
You would have to deal with a gas system, which at this point was dubious for an infantry rifle.
@@TheOwenMajor Even if Ross wanted to use gas operation. It still would have a lower parts count. The auto loaded rifles of the time where not piston operated. Everything but French designs was recoil operated. The British .303 round would have actually been the one of the simplest to build a design to utilize. Only the Japanese and Swiss 6.5mm rounds would have been easier.
@@alt5494 Someone on a previous video reminded us that Ian covered both the semi, and full-auto Ross rifle conversions on his website. www.forgottenweapons.com/ross-semiauto-prototype-rifle/ & www.forgottenweapons.com/the-huot-machine-rifle-a-ross-conversion/ [edit] Although I should say that the semi-auto one was mostly just Ross furniture, and used a completely new action.
I will have a Ross rifle in my collection at some point.
Great series. Watched all 3. There is fact and then there are stories, a " something " most of us have been told up here is that trained specialty snipers kept using the " Rossx? " over everything else, and most complaints came from the men who where in the front and in the mud. The guns where great @ a target range but anything real word , wet & nasty, they became Useless. What ever... Those are the stories... Great Upload!!!!
I've enjoyed. Thank you!
Charles Ross and Sam Hughes *slaps top of the rifle* this bad boy can fit so much fucking problems and malfunctions in it."
Hey Ian, i would Love for you to make a video on the intratec company. Lots of history there! You are where i go when i want to learn about a gun....thank you
These are really nice rifles, I've owned two, a sporterized M10 I traded and an almost pristine M10 I'll never part with. It's too bad they weren't able to iron out all of the problems.
Seems there's still a couple laying in bags on the stairs. Looking forward to seeing those very soon.
This channel is awesome
Just be glad it isn't Channel Awesome.
I have a sporterized M10 Ross, the trigger is one of the smoothest of all the Milsurp rifles I own...
Looking forward to the next in the series, The Bob Ross Mk IV.
It shoots happy little bullets.
I love this man
Great series of Videos on the Ross. While he is mentioned in the series Sir Sam Hughes played a pretty big role in the history of the Ross and is a rather "interesting" character in Canadian History. For more on him, I would highly recommend that you take a look at "the Madman and the Butcher" by Tim Cook. A secondary side note on the Ross is that after they were decommissioned, the bayonets apparently weren't compatible with the Lee Enfields and were re-ground after the war and sold off as sporting knives.
My dad was issued a Ross "combat knife" while on guard in port serving on a Norwegian Merchant vessel in 1943-44 in India. It was a repurposed bayonet, with the barrel loop ground off. He kept it and it 3 young men used it as their camp knife in their teens.
Nice looking rifle.
The rifle was unsuitable for the conditions of trench warfare, the bolts would frequently jam close, or alternately not close properly. There are witness accounts of Canadian soldiers striking the bolt handle with an entrenching tool handle to re open the bolt. Canadian soldiers were threatened with court martial if they ditched their Ross and got a Lee Enfield. This changed after the first battle of the Somme. Canadians coming out of that battle were all observed carrying Lee Enfields. what happened to their Ross rifles was anybody's business (meaning who cares) and NO disciplinary action was taken against them. The Ross was super accurate and a great target rifle. I have seen one (rare in Australia) in a private collection. It has been drilled through the receiver to render it totally deactivated. In most cases "DP" (drill purpose) meant they were used for rifle drill and not much else, most DP being deactivated by various means, including blocking the barrels.
One of the things I find interesting is why Ross for all his bragging did not adopt the Standard Lee-Enfield Magazine which potentially may have eliminated the Magazine issues (aside from patents and Royalties) but for sake of British conformity. the Ross was very heavy compared to the Lee-Enfield but weak in construction compared to the same points in the Lee-Enfield. part of the weight is the added length required in the bolt design required for the internal bolt rotating mechanism, the other is the physically longer barrel. Politics and Egos created a monster that did not need to happen.
No mention of the additional vulnerability to mud or dirt preventing the straight pull bolt from going into battery. This, of course, was a significant issue on the Western Front. A rotating bolt gives much more leverage on this issues.
Under fire, a ghost that roams the battlefield
A limerick I found in a WW1 diary:
"There once was a raw young galoot,
A Canadian Militia recruit,
His Ross Rifle one day
In disgust threw away,
He wanted a gun that would shoot."
the ross reminds me of the m16 in its early service
I'm in the middle of reading "Vimy" by Pierre Berton, which mentions the Ross:
“The Ross rifle, which Hughes had espoused with all the fanaticism of a dervish, had also been discarded in favour of the more rugged Lee Enfield. The snipers loved the all-Canadian Ross, which was a marksman’s delight, but the ordinary soldiers hated it because it jammed in the mud. Ignoring orders, they threw it away and picked up the British weapon from the nearest corpse. Alderson, the British commander who had had the temerity to attack the Ross, was also gone, a victim of Sam Hughes’s pique… It’s safe to say that most of the enemy killed or wounded by rifle bullets were killed by snipers using the Ross or were hit at close quarters in the hand-to-hand fighting that took place in the trenches.”
Most soldiers in World War I died of infection from the wounds they suffered. I don't remember whether I read this statistic in "Vimy" or somewhere else.
There was also a political scandal regarding the inferior boots (they absorbed water and fell apart) supplied to Canadian troops by a company owned by two members of Parliament who resigned after the scandal
Was the presentation rifle given to the same Lt. Col. Farquhar who founded the sport of F Class? If not, then it must be some relative.
I'm fairly sceptical about the "out of spec" ammunition story; perhaps thats slightly over-exaggerated or seeking an excuse? There were dozens (70+?) of small arms munitions factories across the Empire, and the .303" round was well defined and well known in its specs. They had quite tight batch testing standards imposed by the War Office. I have hundreds of WW1 rounds, and not one appears different in any way. In fact, due to the way cordite was die extruded and then cut to length, ammunition from different sources is remarkably consistent in performance - a mixed handful will usually form a reasonable group.
I expect the major reason Ross' were ordered withdrawn was lack of logistic support for them. By 1916, the UK rifle factories were routinely rebuilding hundreds of thousands of battle-damaged Enfields. That industrial level of rifle refurbishment and re-issue would simply not be possible with the Ross', which would have had to be shipped back to Canada. The Commonwealth and Empire forces in Europe needed to be plugged into the UK armaments support in order to maintain field equipment levels, and so native major equipments would not be sustainable.
Whatever became of your bolt test Ross rifle?
I still have it.
Is there such a thing as a Ross Carbine? There used to be a picture of one on the Smallarms Illustrated site.
Numerous officers complained about the unreliability of the rifles. They didn't listen. It took General Douglas Haig to finally persuade them to stop issuing the Ross and replaced with the SMLE.
That’s a different way of doing serial numbers, I just picked up a MD block Ross MK3.
and i still want one.
Looks like a pretty sweet rifle I tell ya what.
Charles Ross is my kin folk I have a few rifles and other things that a collector would have a stroke to have lol
damn ive watched every one of your ross videos and i still cant figure out what my ross is. its an old family heirloom. it has a mk3 looking stock ( no opening for a second rear sight) a Mk 2 bolt, and a weir peep sight that dosnt match any of the ones you showed here. on top of that there is no quick shooting sight only an aperture. all that plus it has a marksman plate on the stock from a competition in 1910. idk wtf it is but its dope. its been in closets for the past 100 years and I've finally gotten by PAL and brought it to a local gunsmith to be cleaned up.
Didn’t know there was 3 models of Ross rifle, only knew of the one where the bolt whacked you in the face
All the Ross Rifles I encountered in the markets in Afghanistan were MKIIIB, how they ended up there is anemones guess, but for $100, they were good buying and in hindsight I wish I had of striped one for spare parts... it would save a lot of the stuffing about I've been going through lately trying to find parts to rebuild a bubba'd MkIII to spec.
I'll like to see a video about "famous jerks that produced historic weapons"; i haven't heard that part of the history but i'll like to.
3 videos Lord alone knows how many iterations of a rifle (7?}im Rossed out.
I don't know if you will answer but why in the era of converting bolt action rifle to semi auto we don't see any attempt with straight pull one? As i can see the bolt look very similar to a semi auto one. Thank you hopefully i will have an answer.
Is this ross is the one you bought in past and published a video unboxing it?
so ian i have to ask, do you think the ross rifle should have been pulled from service or should have been left in service?
Perhaps someone can shed some light on this.. my rear battle sight looks similar to the Mk3 in the video, a VERY deep V groove. I've seen other Ross Mk3 sights that look like an open bulls' horns (a semi peep sight?).
Were they made this way, or were some modified to the V notch over the years?
..also my peep sight is noticeable larger, but I do recall that many had that hole opened up.
Thanks!
The big problem with the Ross was that--especially with the MkIII--it was designed around the idea that "everyone had to shoot like a Boer guerrilla to snipe out to 2000 yards". So it was oriented towards accuracy--tight chambering, needlessly fine-adjustable sights, overly-long barrels--and then got sent into a war where none of those qualities mattered. Great for Bisley or Camp Perry...but a PITA to deal with the extreme conditions of the Western Front's trenches.