Pattern 14 MKI W (T) - The Best Sniper Rifle of World War One
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- When World War One began, the British did not have a formal sniping program, and by 1915 the British found themselves thoroughly outclassed by the Germans in this area. They responded by developing tactics and equipment for sniping, and by mid 1916 they had really outclassed the Germans. However, the mid-war British sniping rifles really left a lot to be desired, even if they were being used effectively in the field. There was no single military optic, instead a wide variety of commercial scopes were rounded up and put into use. The mounts for these scopes were offset to the left side of the rifles to allow for continued use of stripper clips. Clips were arguably not really necessary on these rifles, and the offset scopes led to substantial headaches in use, as they required calculating windage as well as elevation adjustments depending on range.
Through 1918, though, the British developed one of the best sniping rifles of the war, although it would be introduced too late to see virtually any front line service. This new rifle was a Winchester-made Pattern 1914 Enfield with a center-mounted optic, and was designated the P14 MkI W(T). The P14 rifles were more accurate than the SMLE, and the centrally mounted optic made for much simpler shooting. These rifles were deemed to be mechanically capable of 1.5 MOA shooting, with the practical expected group size being 3 MOA.
Three thousand of these P14 snipers' rifles were assembled and kept in service after the end of the war, but in the mid 1930s a small additional batch of 79 were made for the Irish Free State by BSA. These were all eventually surplussed to the US, and the rifle in this video is one of those late-production guns.
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The best snipers today are the Canadians, who work in 4 man teams. No.1 is the sniper, No.2 is the spotter. No.3 and No.4 sweep the air in front of the bullet.
Donald Thankyou you have taken my tactical thinking to the next level The Maxim machine gun introduced over the horizon fire that my GPMG could do with ease as they thoughtfully supplied a sight But to be able to snipe over the horizon WOW WHAT A
Okayyyy...🙄
hahaha
You made a gun joke out of a curling joke.
Bravo, good sir. Bravo.
Explains why they're so good. Also, when they hit targets they all say "Sarry!"
I inherited my Grandpa's M1917(R) in 30-06 with matching Bayonet. Whenever I take it to the range, military collectors never fail to try buying it. Lol, in great shape with an almost unissued bore. They shoot like a dream and destroy the 1903 Springfield everytime!
A decent 1903 shoots sub moa.....like the one made in 1912 that my dad got in 1957 for 35 bucks. I have a 1917 as well and it's been through hell but still shoots clover leaf groups too. Any good shooter can shoot either well.
Mine was re-chambered to .300 H&H mag; should have took it on out to .300 Weatherby.
Man what a treasure you have. I hope you pass it down through the family, it will only become more priceless.
Cool story bro……total bullsheet…but cool story 😂
@@smyers820gm I'd be more likely to believe him then you at this rate
The individual most responsible for improving the quality of British sniping during WW1 was Hesketh Prichard, who also made a name for himself as an explorer, author, big game hunter, and cricketer. He also invented the sliding loophole for snipers, and set up the British sniping school, both mentioned here.
I think he also made the Pritchard bayonet for the webley mk4 revolver
Never touched a gun in my life but theses videos are so interesting to watch
I dont like guns but I like mechanic and history so i'm enjoying this
jjohnston94 more like what's wrong with the uk, gotta jump through hoops to get a 22 never mind a proper gun 🤕
Joshie Doom maybe one day I'll have enough money to move out there, here's to hoping
Jacob Evans
Agreed..........
Jacob Evans ditto
When my grandad did his basic training with the Cheshire Regiment the P14 was just being introduced. At first nobody liked it but he did so well with it that he was promoted from boy bugler to sniper. He served until the armistice.
Great video, and made me chuckle at the thought of some poor sniper getting "really close up view of the steel rifle plate"
I have a 1917 .30-06. And, I really enjoy comparing and contrasting other WW1 rifles. Thank you for the opportunity to view another wonderful example of firearms history.
Jesus christ that scope is a work of art.
And the way it comes off? Ohhhhhhh!
Needed a mechanism that didn't need rezeroing each time. Not like you get a couple of fouling shots in battle and an opportunity to re-zero on paper.
Lets be honest though, minute of german head was probably good enough.
You are a great history teacher! Patiently explaining intricate mechanisms while also giving a very thorough background to these mechanical marvels. Your passion for this field is contagious.
The British sniper training program became the model for most modern day western sniping programs
I think the main training unit for all UK armed forces sniping was the Royal Marines, at least it was in the 1980s.
@@liampaterson3424 My understanding is that sniper training had fallen out of favour in the Army, but came back with a bang in the 2000's for obvious reasons, so while the RM's had a sniper school throughout, the Army had to restart a full training program.
The best American shooters started in the early teens
@@george5156 the 20 teens
Remington built a lot of model 30, 30S, and 720 sporting rifles using the left over receivers of M1917's after the war. One of my friends has one in 30 06. Gorgeous rifle, the metal finish, bluing, and stock work make any 700 I've ever seen look like an el cheapo.
In 1965 Service Armament ran ads in several US gun magazines offering "P-14 sniping rifles plus scope and case, vg,$89.95, good $79.95. Oh, for a time machine and some old cash.
Ian, thank you for the videos. My home is currently underwater from hurricane Harvey, my mother and grandmother in a shelter, and I'm barracked in a 911 operations center on a radio while we attempt rescue.
The familiarity and enjoyment I find in your videos is a comfort right now believe it or not. Even some of our officers who are off are watching with me. Thank you for what you do!
Ah, British weaponry always makes me feel patriotic, truly our army marches with the best gea-
*Suddenly, L85s.*
Avensis Astari Well it's time to switch back to the number 4.
I can't wait for the day they finally bury that platform, it's an embarrasment to us, sure the newest iteration has worked the kinks out but it's inherently inferior to other platforms, just give up on the supposed need for a bullpup i say.
Or get an aug a3
Bullpups have many advantages to standard designs though. not just longer barrel with a shorter overall length, but its easier to maneuver due to the weight being closer to your chest. sure there are downsides like slightly clumsy trigger pull but i would by no means call it inferior or superior, just different. most of its faults can be fixed whilst its pros are inherit to its bullpup design.
*FAM-ass
When I was in the British army I did shoot alot being part of the shooting team I must say lee Enfield mk3 with a x8 mag scope was fun to shot the action was so smooth recoil was very easy but the range was amazing we were zeroing to 300m with 40mm group and hitting targets up to 1300m we did the same thing with most ww1 and ww2 era rifles
One of the first guns I built when I started gunsmithing was based on a Remington 1917 action with a surplus Eddystone 2 groove barrel left in it's native 30-06 chambering. Fitted into a much modified Anshutz 22lr stock it became my first hunting rifle and with 165gr Sierra Game Kings and a 4x Leupold scope, it to this day, will regularly put 3 shots into less than an inch at 100yds. It also took my my first elk. A most excellent basis for the British needs!
Fascinating. My grandfather survived being a British WW1 sniper for 6 months when the average life expectancy of a sniper was 6 weeks. I would love to have a go with one of these to see how it handles against a modern hunting rifle.
This is truly an amazing rifle, and I want one so badly hahaha. Love your vids man, keep up the good work :)
Dale Egberr well it's going to be at an auction in September
The Lone Wanderer as if we have a few dozen thousand dollars to spare for something that worths half that. Auctions are only for those that want something reeeeelly much
Get one. I have an m17....the American .30-06 version. Very accurate and dang near as quick to operate as the SMLE.
MrPanos2000 thank You! Your attitude allows me to buy items inexpensively at auction!
Slugger Stark, jealous, would love that rifle, or the P14. One of the reasons the P17/14 is fast vs the Mauser 98 or the Springfield 03 is the dogleg bolt knob, even though it is a magnum length action. Putting the bolt knob back means your hand moves a lot less to grab the bolt, and a lot less to reacquire the trigger, virtually eliminating two gross movements when cycling. The SMLE is very fast because of the rearward bolt handle, shorter throw, sixty degree unlocking instead of ninety. Great rifles. One of my Steyr SSGs(PIIK) has a swept back oversized bolt knob to achieve the same advantage...decades later. Definitely faster. Steyr didn't do this with my other one(P69 aka PI), took them a while to remember the lessons of WWI lol:). Stay safe.
I really appreciate that Ian points out that the standards expected in marksmanship in 1917 were completely different from today's, with our high tech manufacturing that makes a 1.5moa laughable. It is easily forgotten that there was no computer guided machines that produced these rifles. All were manufactured and fitted by hand.
CAD/CAM makes the extreme ends of the range between best and worst a lot less, but best accuracy today still requires a lot of hand work.
I've read an article that said that the rifle was considered to have poor balance (top-heavy) to be used as a battle rifle, but was ideally suited for its role as a sniper.
P14, best looking bolt action rifle imo
On a minor side note, apparently they did make a few Pedersen devices for the .30-06 version.
The Gewehr 98 would like a word with you.
Pz.Kpfw.VI Ausf.B Tiger II man that massive ugly railroad rear sight is not very aesthetic
It's not ugly :V
MrPanos2000 does that matter if it works? A good looking rifle is a nice thing, but I'd rather choose function over form.
Rifle No.4 might object as well...
Love my Eddystone P14 Enfield. I have the Trench bayonet for it too. Awesome rifle
I wonder if gun jesus blesses every rifle that's auctioned off.
Only the ones that have been forgotten, for the lambs that have strayed from the flock would need guidance from their shepherd.
+5 holy damage
You really think he is overselling one of the best rifles of WW1?
"In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost Gun, Amen"
Gun Jesus- haha
I learn more from these videos than any school or college lesson Ive ever had
If you watch more u will understand more.
Happend to me so, I am not obsessed with guns.
I really like to know how something is build or how it functions.
+ there are often a cool story to tell.
Skengis Khan If Ian was my teacher in high school, I may have actually learned something.
to be fair, why would school be teaching you about guns? Or college, unless it was a specific military history/ gunsmithing course?
If Carlsberg did schools, they would be teaching you about guns:).
Probably should have paid more attention at school then. Only yourself to blame.
As a Brit Army qualified marksman I am in awe of the First guy was a member if my memory serves me correctly of the 60th or 96th Rifles My memory lets me down I just remember the inspiration
The action on those rifles is so smooth
A real piece of history, and in such fantastic condition. I want it badly.
In the United States competition, M1917 was often installed BAR rear sights so they had more adjustment.
this channel needs to be renamed to" this is why I'm broke."
For me: 'Reasons you live on the wrong side of the pond'
If you look after them, they are a good investment - If you can -part with them when you need the coin. I look at some of the rifles I have owned, what I paid for them, and what they would be worth now if I still owned them and it depresses the hell out of me that I don't own them any more. You might be broke now but your rifles could be the best investment you ever make.
It's more like "this is how I spent my lottery winnings" assuming I first played the lottery and second won a substantial sum of money.
Tyler Gordon so very true, me too
Tyler Gordon no
Kinda makes you wonder, some of the best snipers in the world made excellent kills with 2-3 MOA rifles. MOdern PSR shooters get upset when their 5000 dollar + rifle doesn't shoot sub .75 MOA inch groups. I bought my rifle from a guy who was not happy with his .6 MOA groups he was getting with tight handloads. I told him that he is right but I am concerned about it also so ill offer you half of what you paid. lol
It probably never occurred to him HE was the problem xD
No amount of money can buy skill.
probably because most of their kills were made within 200 yards
2-3 moa becomes a problem at extreme ranges, if your shooting 3 moa at 100 then at a mile your really bracket firing
@@IPusers most people don't have targets to hit 1 mile or more out.
Our Ian,
who art in the US,
hallowed be thy name;
thy weapons come;
thy will be done
At the RIA as it is at the James Julia.
Give us this day our daily videos;
and forgive us for our bullpups
as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not to misfires;
but deliver us from jams.
Amen.
Sebastian Horst what do you mean "lead us not into temptation"? you do realize that most of these are for sale, right?
Sebastian Horst
"And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
Amen"
And lead us not to misfires,
But deliver us from Jams.
Bang Bang.
? Thoughts?
Simon Lamoureux awesome!
"Hail Ian, full of facts, Hiram Maxim is with thee. Blessed art thou among gun nuts, and blessed are the fruits of thy channels. Gun Jesus, knower of gun facts, pray for us novices, now, and at the hour of our malfunctions."
EminemLovesCupcakes well the whole Gun Jesus thing isn't that new actually. 2-3 years ago Ian made a Halloween video where he dressed as Jesus
I have a M1917. It was a lend-lease rifle that eventually made its way to Denmark where it got the orange "30-06" orange band and a "M53/17" range card on the stock. It's an awesome rifle.
TGuy (about my age (68 now) about 10 years ago, brought one of these to ouir monthly collectors club meeting here in Lake Worth Florida....he said that at the time (most likely in the early 80s it almost caused a dee-vorce...he paid 10K for it...he also had the numbered can for the scope...
Hi Ian, I live in Krugersdorp in South Africa and inherited a P14, not the sniper edition, from my late father. My late father was in business in a little town in the Western Transvaal named Sannieshof just after the WW2. A guy owed my father some money, which he could not pay and instead gave him the P14 in lieu of payment. Unfortunately, at the time there was a "movement" to make military rifles "sporting" by removing some of the original wood and other funny feeble gunsmithing attempts. Unfortunately this P14 was subjected to, luckily only removal of some wood and a sissy pad added on the stock. I did some research and found it was manufactured by Winchester as the serial number on the rifle starts with a W. It was interesting however to have noted no British markings on this rifle, but clearly stamped by the manufacturer on 2 places ( as far as I can remember as it is in the gun safe and I do not want to take it out now) the following: NOT ENGLISH MAKE. I have found that very strange. It would have been logical that it should be British surplus, as we were a British colony at the time of WW1 and WW2. I have tried to contact Winchester Rifle Coy several times, but have had no success. I would appreciate it if you have the knowledge to advise me the reason for the stamps, but really do not expect you to go out of your way to find out, if you do not know offhand. My son shot his first Warthog at 92 metres in 2006 with the open sight P14.. He was 16 at the time. The rifle still renders very accurate shooting. Love your channel and thanks.
It may have been an American production, post WWI. If it's a 30-06, that's definitely the American run. Up near the front site there should be a W and a MM-YY stamped. That'll help you figure exactly where and when it was made. But mainly the caliber will barrow it down tremendously
@@tripoliwarrior3238 It is a. 303 and furter investigations revealed it is a late WW 1 rifle.
I would agree with Ian. This was the best sniper rifle of WW1 and kudos to the Brits who learned quickly.
Britain have quite usually been paving the way in regards to sniping: first wide spread issue of rifles, training in skirmishing and sharp shooting, general sniping standards etc.
Very nice rifle. The scope mount looks solid and repeatable. With the 2 claws etc, it should return to zero. I can see why this would be preferred over left mounted scopes. I love my US M1917 with a very low serial number. It's a great rifle with better iron sights than anything else of the period. I haven't shot it much, but i have shot it enough to know how good it is. Sounds like the British made very good decisions in how to "kit out" these rifles. 1.5 MOA was pretty darn good back then. An exceptional iron sighted service rifle back then would give 2-3 MOA on average, with a very rare one (usually an M1903) doing a little better. Great video as always. Thank you
Troy Ortega I love my M17 as well!
It's funny, if the M1917 had the same fine-adjustment rear sight as this sniper model of the Pattern 14, it might well have replaced the M1903 as the standard-issue rifle. The fact that it lacked such fine adjustments was something that the brass thought was important, since they seemed to not grasp that war is not the same as shooting competitions. We probably also would've ended up with 6-round stripper clips being made had that been the case, since there's room for a 6th round in the 1917's mag.
Thank you Ian. Great video as always
To help the sniper,or any soldier, with iron sighted range estimation,the front sight was engineered so that a standing man at 400 yards appeared to be the same height as the front sight blade when viewed through the rear aperture. The designers at Enfield Lock didn't miss any details when designing the P13/P14. The same sighting arrangement applies to the M1917 US .30-06 rifles,and was carried over by the British in their No4Mk1 service rifle.
Canadian Francis Pegahmagabow used a Ross rifle . He knew a bit on sniping eh with 378 kills
Another great vid... I've attended Appleseed project shoots.. Love that you're talking MOA and how hard it is to achieve it in battle... I encourage everyone to attend an Appleseed shooting project... Lots of neat shooting info to make you a better shot. Plus some American history to go along with sharpshooting..... keep the good vids coming...
Would love to see more on sniping, great stuff
Ian might like a trip to the Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House Museum when next visiting The Royal Armoury in Leeds. Also we have the Webley & Scott Factory on the border with West Bromwich . But not certain if it has a museum attached.
I have owned two P14s... they were both accurate to about 1.5 MoA with decent handloads. Both of them liked the Hornady 150gr spire point in front of about 47gr of BL-C2 powder giving a bit over 2700fps. Deadly on deer sized targets.... Wish I still had them!...
I reckon you would get tighter grouping if you measured your chamber... only draw back bullet heads might not be seated deep enough to fit in the mag... thats assuming you didn’t already do that.. would be a very interesting rifle to load for.. big respect to you.
I've really been enjoying the sniper rifles on your channel. From this, to the PSG and WA2000 and FR-1. All pretty cool.
I own a Periscope Prism SMLE with the standard offset PPCo mount.
As soon as you pick up the rifle and start using it, it is immediately apparent why the scope is offset - and it has absolutely nothing (IMHO) to do with charger loading.
The problem with all of the scopes available in WW1 - German as well as Allied - is that the scopes have an extremely narrow field of view. In practice, what this means is that it is very hard to seek and acquire targets using the scope itself. In the WW1 sniping environment, they usually describe only having a split second to aim and take a shot. Even if you can see the target with the naked eye, it is difficult to switch to the narrow FOV in the scope.
If you shoot on a military range with military targets - e.g. British No14 "Huns' Heads", against a sandy backdrop - you can see just how hard it is to acquire the target using the scope alone, especially if the targets appear at random locations.
With an offset scope such as the PPCo No1, the scope is positioned parallel to and "eyes width" away from the iron sights. Thus what you can do is use the right eye and iron sights to come up on target as with a normal snap shot, and then switch focus to the left eye to take the shot through the scope. In practice, this is a very, very, fast and accurate method of snap-sniping.
To add credence to this view, its worth remembering that No3(T)s with offset scopes in Alex Martin mounts were being ordered by the War Office as late as 1938: thus there had to be a valid operational reason why these rifles were desired in preference to the standard over-bore No3(T).
Brilliant scope mount. Quick detach back in the day.
After Dunkirk, America shipped England a bunch of Pattern 17s (the 30-06 version of the pattern 14). They were used mostly in the "Home Guard" and had a red band painted around the stock so as to reduce the likelihood that someone would try to load .303 into them. I see these occasionally at gun shows.
Alvin York actually used a p17 (and 1911) in spite of Gary Cooper using a 1903 Springfield in the movie.
I once talked to a guy that said he used a P17 as a sniper rifle in Korea. He said it was "A very good rifle out to 1000 yds."
Good quality Pattern 17's in original military configuration (somewhat) hard to come by. The receiver was one of the strongest ever built, and a lot of them were cut up to make heavy caliber custom rifles when you could buy them for $10 ea.
WOW!!! A M1917 rifle still being used during the Korean War! I am impressed. I would have thought they would have all been surplused to the civilian market or disposed of by World War II lend lease. I had a 1917, and I thought it was a fine rifle. I felt that the 17 was sturdier than the 03.
Original left-mounted scopes for the SMLE are rare, as the mounting tended to be thrown away post-WW1 when armourers salvaged the scope for Army stores. I was offered a well provenanced Mk 3 SMLE with such a scope, back in 2012 for £3500, a silly price then, but a missed investment as I've recently seen examples in the UK changing hands for around £8000.
Thanks, Ian, for another interesting video. Keep it up!
If I may add. It's correct a left-of-axis scope mount was disliked by snipers as awkward for shooting out of vertical loopholes.
- A left scope mount would however not have posed a practical sighting-in problem on a left-hand twist rifle like a .303 SMLE. After the first 100yds .303 bullets would deviate left by 1" every 100yds. By 300yds, a 2" left deviation neatly converges with the offset scope's lateral axis.
- Fast, sustained, aimed fire was part of the sniper's job description, e.g. suppressing enemy machinegun posts during advances, so hanging on to stripper clip use was a responsible tactic.
A big question lingers: why did someone not just redesign (or simply left tilt) the loophole steel plates?
I would expect that the loophole plates were concreted in place.
i bought one of these in Australia in 1981 for $80,they used a 303 cartridge
shane moore them jungle carbines and Swedish mausers couldn’t give them away lol
Beautiful rifle and in great condition! A true piece of art and history!
Great video!! thank you very much!!!
I love my era p-14. Never took a shot out further than 400 yards, but was always able to do fairly decent groups with just the iron sights and ammo I had built for it .
I got a sporterized p14 handed down from a friend that passed away and man what a well built rifle and kicks like a horse. One thing he was planning on doing to this rifle was having it rechammbered in 338 lupla
The side/lateral scope mounting was, I believe, quite deliberate. The school I was at, back in the 1970/80s, was founded by ex-servicemen from WW2. I remember a teacher who took us on scout activities (he had seen service in the jungles of asia) telling us how you would squeeze forward with your rifle sideways to keep your profile as low as possible. I seem to remember him mentioning scopes laterally mounted but I can't remember any details other than remembering that it made perfect sense to do so. However, from what you are saying about effective range capabilities of optics/rifles in WW1 a low-as-possible profile would surely have to have been a necessity in flat trench warfare with nothing to hide behind.
A friend of mine has a sporterized P14. Nice balance, very simple action and safety.
I have a Husqvarna in 9.3x57 Mauser with an offset scope. I did exactly what many British soldiers did. I zeroed the scope with a couple inches of offset so that the windage would always remain the same at any distance.
My Personal Qualifications are Crossed Rifle with Crown. Which I obtained in 1959-1960
The P14 Enfields and the P17's [in .30-06] are considered by many gun gurus to be the best bolt action rifles fielded in World War I. They are actually a product improved M98 Mauser. The aperature rear sight makes them more accurate then the SMLE, the 98 Mauser, or the 03 Springfield. Also another advantage they had was that you didn't have to forge the bolt handle downward when converting it to a sniper rifle with a 12 o'clock scope mount as you do with a Mauser or Springfield.
I have a M1 Garand that I have a non permanent side mount scope on it and have shot it out to 750 yards and have found that the offset doesn't affect that POI to any noticeable degree. Using a 12x50 Simmons I have found that with a 200 yard zero, at 750 yards that offset causes the POI to be less than 2 moa shift. I did notice a much bigger change using a 100 yard zero to the tune of around 4 to 5 moa.
A lot of Brit WW1 snipers used Canadian Ross rifles for their greater inherent accuracy, too.
I think the British also "used Canadian (snipers) for their greater inherent accuracy, too. ;-)
I've heard some sources (namely old library books) cite the Ross Mk. III as the most accurate of all WWI sniper rifles.
@@jonb77 Canadian snipers were no better than British snipers .
matthew findlay false. The Canadians, NZ and Australians had a much higher likelyhood of even getting into the british sniping program.
Australian snipers outperformed British snipers by miles and they still lose to the Canadians. but we did have the worst rifles out of the bunch since we had to rely on Martini Henry’s and other variants of the Martini receiver. it could blow a hole through Turkish snipers behind light cover but it was sluggish and slow.
Well until that’s until we got access to surplus sniper rifles from the British.
Hello Ian, this is an old video, so im not sure youll see this, but I love your videos and your mission. whenever i get a new rifle, I check to see if youve done a video in it. I recently came into, you guessed it, a 1917. Its very interesting as ive never seen the quick detach scope it has on it, made by Oigee, Berlin. At any rate, Ive never had one in my hands before, and I was hoping, maybe, even though I will have sorted it out, and youre busy Im sure, you could possibly follow up with a 1917 complete disassembly? Its my favorite part of every video, and Im always impressed with some of the firearms youve figured out how to break down on your own. Thank you for your dedication.
I love brass on guns. It just looks at home.
I think it’s been over-polished. I suspect that telescopic sight was painted black in service. The last thing a sniper wants is the sun reflecting off a shiny brass surface. 😬😂
...and so Gun Jesus did preach in the British temple, “Do not think I come in peace, for I bring not peace, but an Enfield” -and all rejoiced. +5dmg #holyrelic
That scope looks so much like the Hensoldt Weltzar dialyt 3x!
Interesting comment about the British introducing the two man teams. Billy Sing who was called the sniper of Gallipoli usually was part of a two man team.
Amazing high quality content.
Basically the rifle you see in "Dad's Army". It was issued to the Home Guard issued in both .303 and .0-06 calibres . I believe the latter had red bands painted on the butts to identify that they did not fire standard British standard ammunition.
Hmm ..... I had a 1917 in 30-06 that was set up as a match rifle by some unknown gun smith with that same rear sight. Used it for two years in DCM competition back in the late 80s. As much as I wish I still had those guns but even more so I wish I had the eye sight I had back then.
In Britain post WW2 it was the favored rifle for modification to target shooting, and rebarreling to 7.62 when it was adopted, with vernier sights it was a great rifle.
"You just have a really close view of the metal in front of you" that made me laugh more than it should
Ian has been selling blood regularly to buy this after he first saw it. I wonder if they blackened the brass in the field? Then again back then I can see some officer making him shine it every time he got back.
Sorry, fans of the Lee-Enfield No. i Mk.IV .303, but the finest precision rifle of WWII was the M38 Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55 with a model 41 4x38 power AJACK scope. Stock iron-sighted rifles which would not shoot into 1.5 moa were sent back to the armory for rebarreling, and the rifles selected for sniper use were considerably more accurate than that. Sweden was neutral during the war, but many of these rifles were used by the Finns in the Winter War 1939 and the Continuation War thereafter. The 6.5 (.264-cal.) 139 grain bullets used by the Swedes were ballistically-superior to those of the .303 Enfield by a wide margin, remaining supersonic 300-400 yards past the maximum effective range of the 174-grain loads of the .303. - and the 6.5x55 was every bit as accurate as the British cartridge, if not more so.
Interesting vid but you say the sight can be adjusted out to 1000 metres. While we Brits use the metric system, we have only done so since the early 1970s. So those increments are probably in yards.
alfie9486 Thank you for your comment, I just bought an SMLE last week and I assumed since it's British the sight adjustment was meters, using the rifle as an American will be a whole lot easier now, knowing it's in yards.
schottiey The units are a bit different, even if the names are the same. The American unit is a bit smaller.
@@GremlinSciences that's not what your wife said.
The difference between yards and metres is small. In action situations a lot of the calculations of range are estimates not done with a range finder. These would be done with some foreknowledge of the area. Most sights were using increments of 100, so the estimates and actual range did require some sighting adjustments.
Firstly WE AIN'T BRITS , and secondly though we do sue the metric system us oldies have no idea what a meter is, other than for telling us how much electricity and gas ( not petrol ) we are using. What was wrong with the yard ???.
Very interesting and informative video's, thanks
This and a WWI German sniper rifle are my dream guns.
I’m sure my P-14 and M-1917 rifles can exceed the Brit standard from a good bench rest on a warm day, but that would hardly be field conditions during The Great War. I suspect most of us would have a hard time hitting a barn door at 300 yards after spending weeks if not months poorly fed, in cold mud and under fire.
My first full-bore rifle was a Winchester made P14, re-barreled for 7.62mm Nato with aperture sights and it was reasonably accurate up to 1000 yards, but I replaced it with a Lee-Enfield No.4 and I found that much better, but it is all down to the user's preference. I was disappointed with the weakness of the P14 extractor spring
Your videos are awesome
I'm totally biased towards the Mauser rifles, but the P14 is a fine piece of WWI tech.
...Sooooo, what happened inter-war leading up to WW2? Were these still inventory at the outbreak of WW2? And if so is there any documented cases of their deployment in - for example - France in 1940, or elsewhere? Great video, thank you.
Online search will show that they were used by many countries, the Korean War for instance.
No No No, nothing is better then the ross rifle.
Ohhhhh Canada!
If it can be kept clean and you can hand pick ammo that will fit/run in it I expect it would be just as good. The P14 will have far less of these issues and just works. I want both, but my P17 sporter will have to do.
Or get a later production Ross with all the fixes applied.
Yeah, that works too, but it's not WWI.
Keeping your rifle clean and hand-picking your ammo is to be expected of a sniper.
I got a sporterized version of this my buddy left it to me when he got cancer and shooting it regularly
So he took a $600 gun and turned it into a $150 gun. SMART
Hey Ian, this might be a problem just for me, but the audio in your videos seems kind of quiet compared to other videos. Mind fixing that?
A lot of videos are far too loud. I have to say that for me Ian speaks naturally and clearly. 74 year old.
3 MOA given a detachable scope with varying tolerances is not bad at all. Consider the zero shift just from the optic being detached a reattached.... not to mention lack of match grade ammo.
For once I have to disagree with you Ian, whilst the P14 definitely was the best Entente option the scoped Gew 98 really was the better snipers instrument. A big reason for that is the fact that the German scopes were windage adjustable in the field via the mount itself, where'as the P14's scope was not. Crucially the Germans also had available better quality telescopic sights, which combined with the windage adjustment and very flat shooting Gew 98 no doubt was a good part of the reason German snipers generally prefered shooting from longer range than their Entente counterparts.
Though the Ross might trump them both if it weren't for its intolerance to dirt. They were used by snipers a lot even into WWII, so they were clearly very good rifles.
What a pity they never got the .276 Enfield worked out as a military cartridge - that would have made an awesome sniping tool (7mm, 165gn, 2785fps).
Very cool!
Thank you for the info it is very interesting as a ww2 re-enactor
Headshots are for the movies, in real life and war, it's all about center mass.
Centre of visible mass, e.g. when only the enemy's head is visible above the trench parapet you try for a head shot.
Oh my goodness, how I wish I could bid on this rifle. 5000-7000 actually falls within the realm of "rifles I could potentially afford at some point in my life." If I could actually manage to buy this thing for 5 or even 6 grand, I would be over the moon and it would be the jewel of my collection. Someone is going to be a very lucky and very happy buyer. ;_;
I wonder how many school army cadet units in the UK had rare rifles donated by parents etc....you know, I found it in my loft, dad or grandad forgot to hand it back!
I was an assistant armourer in my school CCF in the early 1960s.As a pupil at the school it was great as I loved guns. One day, I was on my own doing some menial task and decided to take a look in some brown boxes in the armoury. Biggest surprise was a browning machine gun ! When I asked one of our teachers about it I was told off ! But he did say one of the elderly teachers was ex RAF and it was his momento from a Lancaster mid upper turret . Both teachers died years ago. I often wonder what happened to the gun.
@@robtt997 I know what you mean. My school used to have jumble sales, every so often, someone would turn up with a gun if some kind. These ended up in our armoury....no problem, serial number just added to list. Enough parents were ex armourers who would give them the once over. More confident, secure times!
P14 sniper rifles saw service during World War 2 and during the Korean War as the Rifle No3 Mk.1T.
Ian, thanks for the video!
Any further info on those books by British snipers?
I find it peculiar how this isn't used in the scoped variant of the M1917 Enfield in Battlefield 1 considering Ian was their weapon history advisor at that time.
The P-14 sniper was the standard Australian issue sniper rifle well into WW2. They were most notably used in the bitter"guerilla" operations against the Japanese in Timor.
The weak link in the system was the Patt 18 scope. This is a "lift" of a German design from before WW1. As can be seen, the scope had to be disassembled to be fitted with the rings. No dry nitrogen or other such Gucci features there.
The problem with the P-14 in active service in WW2, was that NOBODY had made spare parts (especially interchangeable spares) for the P-14 since early 1917.
Towards the end of WW2, Oz went on to sort-of adopt a No1 Mk 3-based sniper rig , still mounting the dreadful Patt 18 optic in yet another couple of variations of the German-style mounting system seen on the P-14.
In a wonderfully bizarre and somewhat dismaying twist, the Australian No1 Mk 3 (T) units were STILL the (limited) issue sniper kit right through the 1960s and into the 1970's. The latest official repair and maintenance documentation I have seen for them is dated 1976. in 1979, the Parker Hale M-82 was introduced. This was essentially the same rifle adopted by Canada as the C2 sniper. A least it was finally a rifle that used 7.62 NATO ammunition and had the optically and mechanically excellent Kahles ZF69 on top.
your forgetting the Ross sniper rifle that Canada used.
But the Ross rifle itself had a few drawbacks ( see Ian's Video) as a riflle
The 3 moa standard of accuracy was the maximum allowed for acceptance. I shoot a winchester 1917 that will shoot 1.5" groups with good ammo.
Francis Pegahmagabow used a Ross, which just goes to show that it takes more than a great rifle to make a great sniper. I wonder if he ever got his hands on one of these bad boys
I thought the offset scope was to lower the profile of the marksman's head. And as a side note, this is a fine feat of British engineering. I would love one as a hunting rifle.
+The Warden Do you have any documentation to support that?
Forgotten Weapons The scope thing? Just what I've heard around on the internet, no specific sources.
An offset scope does however lower the shooter's head, does it not? (Different of course to conclude that this was why it was opted for.)
There is still some p14’s getting around in Australia saw a 303/25 one the other day
@@cowstable By maybe a centimeter or two, not really enough to make a difference. The stocks aren't adjustable anyway so shoulder positioning greatly limits how much you can drop the shooter's head.
Yes, a very accurate rifle, identical apart from calibre to the US M17. Originally designed as the P13 in .276 calibre, but WWI came along and such experimentation came to an abrupt halt. However, despite its widespread use as a sniper rifle, I would argue that the Canadian Ross rifle was much more successful in this role if you take number of enemy casualties into account. The Ross may have been subject to more jams and blockages due to the mud and blood and other rigours of trench warfare, but properly maintained and cleaned, it was as accurate as any other contemporary rifle. Francis Pegahmagabow killed 378 Germans with one.