Ross MkII: Sorry, We'll Get it Right This Time
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ต.ค. 2019
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The many significant problems with the Model 1903 / MkI Ross rifle had quickly led to the development of the improved MkII design. This strengthened many parts, including the sights, nosecap, bolt latch, and more. The receiver was made thicker, and an extra set of cams added to make the bolt throw smoother. Primary extraction was added by way of angling the locking lugs. Mk II rifles began to come off the Ross Rifle Company production line in December of 1905.
Between its introduction and its replacement by the MkIII in 1912, the MkII Ross would undergo 5 changes in type, mostly involving different rear sights. However, a distinct "long" pattern was also made, designated the MkII**. This model had a longer barrel and some mechanical changes, and was also fitted with a rear aperture sight and stripper clip guide. These would be very successful in competition shooting at the time, and helped salvage the reputation of the Ross after the problems of the MkI.
Overall, 13,700 "long" MkII Rosses were made along with 124,000 of the "short" type. They did see use in World War One, as armament for Canadian artillery units. They were also used as training rifles by the military, and the US government also purchased 20,000 of the MkII3* pattern for use training the multitudes of new US soldiers joining up to fight in Europe.
Many thanks to the private collectors who allowed me access to their rifles to make this video!
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N. Oracle #36270
Tucson, AZ 85704
As a Ross employed by the Canadian government, I can confirm that we still haven't quite got it right, even after all those years!
Any relation to Rick Ross?
Well, it is Govt after all....
@@Siskiyous6 It's CANADIAN government. Ie, much worse than usual government.
Ah another Ross in the wild, I love when this happens
sir Charles Ross hears Francophile is being critical of his rifle "rises from the grave"
What if the screw that keeps the other screws from becoming unscrewed becomes unscrewed!?
Then you're screwed.
@@ForgottenWeapons Screwy questions deserve screwy answers. :)
Put another screw in to keep that screw from unscrewing!
@@cheerfulpessimist952 Screwception
In case like that where the screw was to be permanatley fixed, my Farther always used to put a drop of glue on the thread. I have read that slivers of razor blade were tapped under sight mounts to make them tight.
Ian, those two inches don't matter.
It's how you use the 28
thats not what she said ! lol can not believe I was 1st to come out with it !
I really appreciate these types of videos detailing the differences between similar models.
When is your next classic guns auction?
@@issackliener3065 Little auction, November. Big auction, December.
It's something very valuable about what Ian does, because a lot of these details are often either hard to visualize/understand through just text, or often times simply not floating around the internet (etc) at all.
Normally I'm jealous of the guns you feature, but... that's a really nice stair case in the background...
This person's house must be wallpapered in Ross rifles and parts.
Soldiers eyesight must have been much better back then.
Being able to shoot 2200 yards with precision iron sights is an outstanding feat.
If you got a company that shoots, some may hit a barnwall or the company infront of the barn.
@@exploatores I would have trouble seeing the barn.
@@shawnr771 That's why you let artillery and skirmishers do the spotting.
The skirmishers will tell the artillery how close they got to the barn.
The artillery will deal with the company in front of the barn.
It may have been some higher ups attempt at psychology. If we mark it out to 2200 yards the troops will be confident in their rifles ability because why would you mark it out to 2200 yards if it couldn't do that. Also at that range it may have been intended to be aimed at a formation of troops rather than an individual, much like medieval archery.
@@CardinalAsh The barn is camo for a concrete reinforced underground bunker.
Yo' dawg. I heard you liked iron sights so I put backup iron sights for your iron sights.
I've seen guns with backup iron sights for optics before, but having backup iron sights for iron sights is a new one.
FILMING: PLEASE DO NOT USE THIS STAIRWELL
Next video" Ross MK III: Darn, i mean, for real this time"
Followed by Ross MK IV: We actually fixed the problems! Wait where are you going?
its like just stamping stars everywhere is a bad idea for revision control
Everything's Fine**
Spoiler alert: they didn’t get it right this time.
Ah damn, guess this is what I get for reading the comments first.
>:(
Title: Sorry, We'll Get it Right This Time
Narrator: They didn't.
Noooooooo really!!!!
Well it was done right by Mk.II**
I acquired a US stamped MK 2 Ross Rifle years back in honor of my late Uncle that was drafted on first day of the World War One Draft. He Basic trained with one and . Scored another that had been sporterized recently. Now in military configuration. Both shoot well.
Craig Peterman i have no doubt that they can drill absolute holes in anything.
Ah! You rescued an old rifle from the clutches of sporterization? I applaud you!
y'all notice how gun jesus got some muscles all of the sudden
Gotta be ready for that Kasarda drill.
Thank you for sharing this story, I've been dreaming of this exploration since I first stumbled across your content.
So that's what those holes in the back of the receiver are for! I have a sporterized MkII, I assumed the holes were for an aftermarket peep sight.
It actually sounds like Ross used the military contract as a means of developing commercial technology for free when you look at the II**
So many changes... I'm seeing stars. I like the stories of Mr Ross.
13:10 gun banner response: "It has two rear sights, that makes it DOUBLE DEADLY!"
Hoping to get a Ross MkII at RIA next month, thank you so much for the informative video!
Great series. Thanks Ian. I enjoy your videos.
I like this rifle.
We had a few Ross rifles in our school CCF armoury in the 1960’s. They had not been used for years but the armourer who came over from the Redford barracks in Edinburgh once a month to do any work needed, was very happy to re-commission one for me. It was a Mk.2 but I cannot recall, if I ever knew, how many stars. It shot as well as our rather worn SMLE No.4 rifles. I became rather taken with straight pull rifles and later bought my own Mannlicher M1895 carbine in 8 x 56R - not a very wise buy, as sporting ammunition was very hard to come by.
Hello, long time viewer, first time writer. Thank you for the deep dive into Canadian history.
The Ross Mk2** was mostly produced as a civilian rifle for target shooting. A smaller batch were produced for the Canadian military rifle team. I have one of each I have acquired over the years along with the US marked Ross training rifles.
Whatever else can be said about them, they are handsome guns...
Somebody at the Canadian government- how about taking some time to consolidate and get a specific model that works just right?
Ross- No.
American government-(same question)
Ross-Yes!
Thank you , Ian .
Great video on a very confusing topic. Sir Sam Hughes defended the weapon right up to the very end often calling it "the finest firearm ever built". His steadfast defence of the flawed gun, which ultimately cost lives, ended up being a major factor in his dramatic fall from grace.
The C-broad arrow you allude to at 10:50 is the standard government property mark in Canada from about that time up until 1949; it doesn't indicate that the rifle was sold out of service. The Brits would indicate that something was sold out of service by counter stamping an opposing arrow ( -x- ). I haven't seen anything like that with the C-broad arrow.
Great video, as always. I thoroughly enjoy your series!
Great video. I suggest u do a video on Ross Sporter Rifles especially the 1905 and 1910 model and their different chambering
props for calling it "Lange" and not lounge Visier.
Sounds like dude who is responsible for Caliphs cocktails and light music. And less prone trying to usurp the throne.
3 sights for maximum precision, bonus points if you can get a scope on too
Great history lessons! Thanks!
Thank you! I can finally identify my gunshow find!
Greetings Ian, another great video! Seeing as we're looking at straight pulls, see if you can get hold of one of Ron Owen's "Taipan" Mosin Nagant conversions. Built after the Australian gun restrictions came in, it was to be the replacement for the SKS and SKK semi-autos favoured by pest eradication shooters. Straight pulls were considered legal, whereas semi-autos were not. An interesting design if you can find one.
Well done explanation. My Grandfather (RCFA) would have carried one of the longer barrel MKII variants.
I'm looking forward to the Mk 3 episode. Always wanted a Ross of any iteration, and never have seen one in the wild.
Im hoping he could do a video on a 22lr ross. I still wish i jumped on the one i saw on gunbroker
Ian another great video. I feel like Im attending firearms university whenever Im watching. About the “out of service stamp” : The C with an arrow in it. It looks a lot like the stamp used the mark the rifles used by the Pacific coast militia rangers PCMR during WW II And along with Winchester 94s and I believe Marlins, they were issued the Ross rifle.
The C-broad arrow was the official government property stamp of Canada from just prior to WW1 up to 1949. All government property (military in particular) was branded with it.
Backup iron sights for your iron sights! Brilliant!
I own a 5 star; now I know what all the numbers and letters on the stock mean. Thanks!
This is one of the reasons I like your channel you dig really deep into the history and bring examples to verify your findings. I have an interesting question, can you find a paper trail for the rifle (I am Told Ross) as used by Francis Pegahmagabow MM & two bars. My Grand father fought along side of him at the Ypres front at St Julien when the Canadians relieved the French Algerian troops who were virtually wiped out during e first German gas attack, the Canadian were accompanied by Indigenous, Singh and Muslim plus Gurkha troops. My grandfather said they were all fine troops who you could trust with your life, one note, he said you had better lace your boots up per British Standards or you would not wake up if the Gurkhas past through at night. Keep up the great work. Note 2 you are in this article bring more facts to light about the Ross that my Grandfather covered but only in passing and the actual rifles as use in the Ypres, St Julien front.
Excellent!!!
just in front of the site what is the knurled ring for seems to have numbers on it
6:48 Sorry, Ian, but that's "After they got to 999 ZED" 😊 🇨🇦
Hahaha
Settle down there Dr. Krieger.
Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead.
Continued on Next Stock of course! ;-)
Luv these Ross rifles
I'd be interested to know how many individual rifles Ian's had access to in the making of this video series. I'd be worried about misplacing/mixing up parts by this point...
Those are some nice stairs.
Can't wait for the MKIII Ross rifle
I thought the stars denoted how strong the maple syrup smell is.
Quite enjoyed your video and I've learned a lot about Mk I and Mk II Ross Rifles! My only question is regarding the marking on the Mk II 5* that you identify at 10:50 as indicating that the rifle was sold out of service. The mark looks very much like a Broad Arrow with a large "C" around it which was the Canadian Broad Arrow indicating it was government property.
Fascinating to see the difference in sight "philosophy" from these very complex, super adjustable sights as on the Ross MkII.... to the later Carcano fixed rear sight! I know what I think would be more effective in the hands of a "Hostilities Only" soldier!
I foresee Forgotten Ross, the successor to Forgotten Bergmann
I'm now on a quest to aquire a Ross rifle with two rear sights.
What is the purpose of knurled wheel next to the sights on the Mark I* and Mark II? It looks like the small knob next to the notch adjusts for windage and the roller coaster adjusts for range.
I have a feeling the different receiver and barrel threads are economy. I can cut fine threads way faster than coarse on a manual lathe because of the depth of cut being shallower. The receiver fine threads are also easy to tap vs the acme thread that would be easier to thread mill than tap or single point cut. The coarse barrel threads would probably be milled rather than turned.
What was the Ross Mk2 chambered in for the US issued rifles? Was it still in British .303 or was it chambered for 30-06?
They were left in .303
left in .303 because they were generally not range trainers just drill trainers. US had .22cal range trainers at the time.
thanks for the information. I bought a "sporterized" Ross rifle a couple of years ago and just started looking at it to figure out what to do with it. It is a 1905 Mk3 and looks like it has the US markings as well. unfortunately they are not clear as someone reconditioned the stock. the "sporsterizing" was simply cutting the stock off forward of the middle barrel band. I found a company that produces replica stocks and parts like the front sight hood and the bayonet lug and front band. would it be worth replacing the entire stock or should I just add a front piece in order to keep the original stock?
There is a Ross MKII on a local auction. It looks like it is missing the bolt stop and the safety. Is there a good place to get parts? Thanks
Thanks to the collector to allow us to view.
Ross week: tis a great day for canada and therefore the rest of the world
I wonder why Remington never made the rolling block in 303?
10/10 would buy one, especially since the 8x50 Lebel versions are so rare.
@@AKS-74U suppose it be easy enough to re barrel or rebore a shot out 7mm one
@@johnstacy7902 given the size of the rim on the .303 case, I think you'd have to modify the 7mm extractor heavily, probably even a new one. But yeah a rebore and cut the chamber face for the rim and you are 90% there
@@AKS-74U I have a RB in 30/30 that was rebarreled. It's a nice shooter
Possibly because anyone that was interested in a .303 British single shot rifle or carbine could get a Martini-Enfield.
I was given a copy of the original printing this week.
14:00 What is the thread size of the MkII** action threads?
What is the knurled nob in front of the sight?
I was looking at the various inscriptions on the stock,and trying to find the "kill" score.
You should get a mini dolly for all the shots of the gun you're filming. It is one more thing to pack, but it would make the video look a lot better.
I wonder if anyone ever took a Mk 2**, set both rear sights to the same range and checked to see if they lined up...
i bet someone do that already, i mean if someone (or 2) can do stupid things like The French Finger Trap on MAS-36 Bayonet (th-cam.com/video/DA3VsMteAxk/w-d-xo.html) then someone do smart thing can be happen too
Now I wanna do that but something tells me no. Considering the rear most rear sight is set higher than the forward rear sight...forward rear sight there's a combination of words I never thought I would say.
@@clothar23 it may be an optical illusion. 100 yards on the rear sight should be 100 on the forward sight. Same angle, different radius. If it's not the same, it's not the same.
@@devincook2736 You may have a point. Nonetheless I guess it would take getting my hands on the long barrel Ross and in Canada those are rare despite their Canadian manufacture.
@@clothar23 no, it wouldn't. Pick up a flat top AR-15 with a long picatinny handguard and put two rear sights on it.
I was just thinking why doesn't forgotten weapons have a Ross Rifle video
On the original pattern their is a knurled ring in front of the rear sight. What is this and why? With the knurled pattern It looks like something to turn or adjust
Actually it looks like it’s present on both
Probably goes with the 'quick change' barrel threads instead of a spanner flat
Mark Becht ah it’s for the quick change barrel cool
Ok I need to keep my head focussed.
Love ya Ian!
So what is the ugly metal block, cut into the stock behind the rear sight?
Oh my god, the stampings on these rifles! It's like CarFax but for guns! lol
Ross was making so many different variants one might think he was actually in charge of the German tank design team.
"Sold out of service" stamping reminds of the hippie pacific sign.
It reminded me of the British broad arrow mark they stamped one when it was accepted and another pointing at the first when it was sold out of service.
He was wrong about that... the Broadhead C is the Canadian acceptance stamp.
So do those backup iron sights co-witness?
Great video as always. There is any possibility to review 9x39 russian weapons like te OTS-14 or the VSS? I would love to learn more about them. thank you very much for your videos
Ian would the development of the Ross rifle be in some way comparable to the development of the AR and AK series of rifles? Took about ten years to get it all right for all them.
Except the Ak and AR platforms went on to be universally loved and used world wide. Ross got his rifle right...finally...but no one cared by then.
All these old guns with sights out past 1000-2000 meters... sounds really ambitious to me
The plan would be all 50 of you shoot at your target and scare it lol
@@craigharness3156 lol I guess so!
@@craigharness3156The answer lies in understanding the time period. True "rapid fire guns"(what we now call machine guns) were new and the use of them not well understood. Most Infantry units didn't have any as they were relegated to the Artillery. To obtain 'volume of fire' on a distant target such as a formation of Infantry or Battery of Artillery, an Infantry unit would form in line, the officer calling out a range setting and the troops would fire one round in volley. This is also why most rifles had a magazine cut-off. No one aimed at an individual soldier but aimed at the mass of a target. It was a different time.
HistoryNut60 yeah it was a different time it would be interesting how much of an area they could suppress with volley fire. It’s also ironic in a time frame when there was a legitimate concern of ammunition scarcity they would attempt to shoot at anything that far.
@@craigharness3156 That's what I always think. Countries are like "We're not sure we should have a magazine in case soldiers waste ammo" and also "Sight it to infinity, if we shoot enough bullets someone might get lucky"
It's also possible that he was experimenting with 280 Ross or its predecessors at this time and found that extremely coarse thread to be a major stress point that wasn't holding up under the higher loads. The fine threads should be both stronger and less of a crack propagation point. Without a doubt a lot of the features in Ross's rifles come from his sporting rifles/experiments and it would not be terribly surprising to see yet another carryover added into the already large pile.
The coarse thread plus set screw made me think of a takedown sporter, but I have no idea if Ross actually made any takedown models.
@@RobertQuinlan I am not aware of any takedowns that were actually made, although there was one depicted in a Clint Eastwood movie that was not actually a takedown.
Sorry, but as a Canadian I can see how you put "Sorry" in the title...
The AR-15 pattern and the Ross are both of note for being military and civilian patterns. The Ross was a civvie rifle adapted for military service and so has all the shortfalls of a civvie rifle. The AR-15 was developed as part of a military-focused development, the civvie adaptations come with all the military benefits.
It's a common theme that civvie rifles don't make great military rifles (obviously there are exceptions) but military rifles are effective when turned to civvie weapons.
I'm so confused. Please do another video on something less esoteric like the G11.
thawndoo he already has a video on the G11
Right?
When did ross develope the 280?
Ian can you Talk about the M1919A6
One dislike so far. *Sir Chales´s ghost punching dislike button furiously*
I give this video a 5 star rating.
How many times did you have to watch it to get up to five stars? ;>)
Lol. 5 lol.
Canada used to be a great country.
Are the DP marked rifles safe to shoot?
According to my research, the Ross Rifle is the reason Canadians are so polite and apologetic.
I have one of the US purchased rifles. Seems it would mess one up to train with a straight pull then have to use a 1903 or 1917.
The broad arrow in the C means it was Canadian issued. I'm certain someone else already said that 1000 times on here.
But... Can you use both rear sights simultaneously?
I have a iver jonson shotgun that has a unique mechanism i was wondering if ur be interested in looking at it to open the action you have to pull the trigger and i have never seen another one
Sounds like an IJ Ring Trigger shotgun. I've seen them in 16 gauge a few times here in New England.
@@esrvdb88 I'll past a picture when I get home from work
Are these available anymore?
Ian, At 10:50, you say that the "Broad Arrow" in the C means it has been sold out of the service. I thought that the C broad arrow, was the equivalent of the British broad arrow and indicated it was government property.
The sold out of Service mark was two arrow marks nose to nose making an X . Not all surplus kit at the time had it though.
As a Canadian... I'm sorry.
My question is where do you find these old firearms?
Timothy Fitzgerald Probably collectors. If you had a fine collection of type XYZ rifles, it would be cool to have Ian visit for a day and shoot videos explaining your collection.
Could the 2* have been intended as a marksman's rifle? Also maybe the 2* development began before the 3* and was the intended improvement with the 3,4 & 5 * being quick fixes or variations based on part supply.
17:54 2* were used by the artillery corps
@@vrisbrianm4720 I know that but I'm speculating that this may not have been the original intent and it was just issued to the units that hadn't got new rifles yet.
@@IceWolfLoki Well, British/Canadian military doctrine at the time didn't designate a "marksman's rifle". I think the reason is that since the Mkll 2* has already been superseded by Mklll before WWI, they were instead being relegated to second line or support unit. The 2* long barrel length was also retained in the Mklll.
Ross was a long range shooter and maintained a 1000 yard range at his house and that drove his rifle design