YaaAAaaaAAssss. I named my whole channel because of this. To add to everything you said, dice also have a lot of problems that make them not truly random, especially cheap and low quality dice. So you may actually be rolling a lot of 1s because your dice favor rolling 1s. With cards, as long as you shuffle well, it is always truly random and fair. Dice are defective, cards are king :)
Haha, dude, I remember in early x-wing, me and my buddy actually bought more dice, and then checked the balance on all of them so we could roll fairly.
Meh my precision backgammon dice would like to complain... ugh a pair of dice for like 25 bucks. Iol ugh But no seriously they are great for tournaments.
Another great mechanic that comes with a deck is the suits. Triggers in Malifaux add a whole other level of strategy. Now, not only are you thinking about the number of the card, but which suit will let you get the trigger off. Do you risk cheating a lower/higher card than you wanted to use just for the suit? Do you spend a soul stone instead? It adds so much to the game and is another reason I fell in love with malifaux
Haha yeah! Super agree, Josh! I felt like I needed to simplify the content a little for the purposes of this video. But I might do a dedicated fate deck video later
The resource management with the control hand and the soul stones are such a good part of it. Having the discard pile just changes the game so so much since the odds are always changing. Another one is since 1 card is discarded at the start and when you get to the end of a deck and you don't know if you're about to draw a black joker or if it was discarded at the start
I knew dice were broken from X-Wing, where all the related mechanics were like re-rolls and focus tokens. Malifaux changed my outlook completely by making it resource management.
Nice vid! In addition to Malifaux, there are a number of other board games, RPGs, and miniature games that use card flips off a 54 deck of playing cards to replace the die roll. The deadlands RPG uses this, and its quickness stat determines the number of cards you draw at the start of the round, the highest of the cards drawn is used for initiative. The miniatures ruleset Horizon Wars Zero Dark uses a deck of cards to control the excellent AI in singleplayer/co-op. Card flips off the top will determine enemy placement, types of enemies placed, whether a grunt, elite, or boss is activated, and the suit determines the type of AI activation (clubs = command, diamonds = techinical, heart = support, spades = attack)
@@CornerCase If you really want to have your mind blown, I would take a look at the cooperative game regicide. It's one of the best cooperative games I've ever played, and the entire game is played with just a standard 54 card deck. There are literally no other components, just the deck. The rules are free online and it works with a normal deck of cards. However, I love the actual regicide deck for the amazing art.
That’s a great way to put it! I feel the same way, long live cards! That is in part why Gloomhaven is so popular, great system well balanced all cards. For malifaux, I’d add that the system is so well designed that in for most turns you burn 70-90% of your deck, so every possible luck comes out one way or another which is very important for the system to feel just. The only thing I would change is how math intensive the game feels. I feel like I’m getting a headache for every game. I’d love to see a video about that, and mechanisms to cope on that, especially since you said you were so anti-math lol
Thanks Jordi! I think most miniature games I've played are math intensive in one way or another. Like in Infinity, you have to calculate, mimetism, cover, range band for a normal shot. In 40k, you have to compare toughness, compare armor, count 50 dice. Lol. I think it's more like what type of small maths are you willing to do when it comes to mini games XD
Another plus for cards is that a deck of cards itself can be a beautiful object. Or … a collection of beautiful objects, I guess. They are tactile and feel nice in the hands and there is no limit to the creativity that can go into card design itself - particularly, as in Malifaux’s case, when the deck uses non-standard suits. That’s something I’m an absolute sucker for. I recently got the deck of tarot cards they made as merch for the Dishonored series where the suits are Pistols, Swords, Hats and Rats and the joy I got from just looking through them was … actually probably disproportionate and specific to me.
I'm totally on board, Rob! I LOVE illustrations, and cards are a great way of introducing that into the gaming. Dice have a great aesthetic and feel to them, but for me, nothing beats illustrations!
I just love how much thought you can put into Malifaux. Yes, there are some more straightforward teams. But there are factions that have a real high barrier to entry, but are by no means bad. Being at a disadvantage and trying to outthink and outmaneuver a superior enemy is super rewarding. I play against super hard hitting teams and can't compete with them in a headlong fight, so having to think outside the box to win is a lot of fun. Plus I also like the idea that you can win a game while having your entire force wiped out.
The board game Oathsworn actually has the option to play with dice or cards depending on preference. I definitely understand the attraction to either side, dice have more unpredictable outcomes and it's just physically satisfying to dump a bunch out, but cards do lend themselves better to planning/strategy.
Same with Settlers of Catan. They have a deck that is the 36 permutation distribution for 2D6. Since the distribution actually relates to their game where the location tokens have the prescribed probability listed on there. You can switch to cards to be more competitive. I do agree that the tactile experience of chucking dice does have a huge impact on why people use them. I think once people realize they can be shuffling cards for half their game, that's its own tactile fun :D
Pretty knowledgeable assessment. Unfortunately I know this all too well. As someone who also loves malifaux and dice , this is all good stuff. Love teaching people the odds and how the cards flip out. Though I do love both dice and cards. Come on people , do both !
Haha, thanks Kevin! XD. I think this topic needs more visibility. People like us know it and love it, but I think a majority of tabletop gamers need this info!
@@CornerCase true that I always look forward to your new vids. Keep up the good fight. Keep spreading the knowledge. Malifaux deserves the spot light having such lovey visuals and rich choice in backgrounds.
One of the first things I realized about Malifaux was that by using cards and cheating fate, each game feels different. Even playing the same factions versus the same opponent with exactly the same lists. Power gaming still can happen but it's subdued because of the draw. Also with Malifaux there's no "flavor of the month" issues. Love your content.
Same! I think what we’re talking about here implicitly is also the randomized encounter setup. I have another video coming up about input vs output randomness. It’s taking a while for me to consumerize the information, but it’s happening. I hope that by spotlighting game design, people who haven’t tried that many games have the information they need to want to try what I think are better games than what’s popular.
@@CornerCase Keep at it, I think that relaying information to consumers is a big step. Most FLGS stock what sales have shown to be profitable but aren't always comfortable in stepping into new things. I'd wager some of your subscribers are shop owners too.
Also something that I learned from a game designer... If the chances of success is 50% on the dice roll, the player will always feel that he succeeded 40% of the time
Thanks Manuel! I've heard something similar before, where designers for video games actually need to boost the real probability and communicate a lower probability to the player. The player will then feel like it's accurate.
So watching this for a second time two thoughts come up. First is that the use of cards allows for you to count cards (yours and your opponents) to keep track of how luck will swing for the both of you. It also means that the rate at which you draw cards can be tatical too. Say if you've used all you good cards you might want to start to churn through cards really quickly to 'reset' your luck. Second is that while card draws and rolling a single die are true random distributions, rolling two dice and adding them is not. Rather it's a normal distribution, meaning that most results will fall close to the average. While this is going to swing less it's got to feel less satisfying as it also means that your way less likely to get a really good roll.
Thanks Chris! This is super helpful 😊. Yeah, that’s something I didn’t talk about in a lot of detail-the specifics of manipulating your cards In Maifaux. But I also forgot about that idea of resetting your deck. Definitely I think a fun topic is attacking your opponents deck-forcing them to spend or flip good cards on duels that have little consequence or that don’t advance their agenda. I have an idea to make a video called “How to Stax” where I talk about how to build a Stax list in different miniatures games 😂
I feel like too many dice rolls during a game threatens to break the fourth wall. I love rolling dice sometimes, but when I roll several times for a single action (roll to hit, roll to wound, let your target roll to save...) I start to see past the game world and realize I'm just playing Yahtzee with miniatures. I don't want to see through the game world.
I agree that cards offer an interesting pseudo-random element that changes the strategy of the game. I like it but wouldn't want to replace dice in all games. Also, I think it would have been better to compare a distribution between a d12, which is flat, rather than 2d6. Saying that the distribution between cards and dice is different, when the same difference exists between different rolling styles, isn't a strong point in favour of cards.
Thanks Coyote! I think thats why I brought in the discussion of mechanics. So I didn't really talk too much about mechanics I don't like in dice games, but X-Wing was guilty of a lot of re-rolls and focus tokens to try and guarantee results. It made it so some lists could forego luck entirely, and those were the ones that win. Whereas in cards, because it's resource management, making guaranteed results baseline means you can focus on mechanics that actually deny that. I think its definitely in the minutia--for example, re-rolling a charge roll, and you got the same result again. Vs in a deck of cards, it was impossible for you to get the same result on a re-roll. It feels less bad. It's gaming, so ultimately it does come down to the experience you enjoy. And what is Corner Case but a collection of this minutia :D
This is what brought me into Malifaux. Sadly no players in my area. Freebooters Fate could be a game for you. It uses also cards and no dice. And is now out in english.
Thanks RD! I’ll check it out! Sorry about Malifaux in your area! There are far fewer around me than before but I still love collecting and painting, and the online community is awesome
Coming from the ttrpg world, dice and card distributions are a huge part in determining the 'feel' of a game. Sometimes the ability to get a success a theoretical infinite number of times is what's needed, and sometimes the curved distribution of 2d6 is needed to avoid the 'swingy' distribution of a single die. What interests me about using cards is the ability to count cards. You know what's in your hand, and what's been played, with the odds of guessing what your opponent has with increasing accuracy. Though with those systems I think it's important to have an interesting and tactical way to use undesirable cards - either to gain an advantage other than numerical, or to intentionally sabotage other people's hands. Miniature wargames that use the interpretive nature of tarot decks when? :v
Weird, I thought I replied to this. The Tarot Deck thing sounds really fun. I think a system based on that interpretive experience can be a really great collaboration game.
You are correct. I never mentioned my bias that I actually really dislike the sound of dice on hard surfaces. The sssssssssssssssss of shuffled cards is very much preferred.
YaaAAaaaAAssss. I named my whole channel because of this. To add to everything you said, dice also have a lot of problems that make them not truly random, especially cheap and low quality dice. So you may actually be rolling a lot of 1s because your dice favor rolling 1s. With cards, as long as you shuffle well, it is always truly random and fair. Dice are defective, cards are king :)
Haha, dude, I remember in early x-wing, me and my buddy actually bought more dice, and then checked the balance on all of them so we could roll fairly.
Meh my precision backgammon dice would like to complain... ugh a pair of dice for like 25 bucks. Iol ugh
But no seriously they are great for tournaments.
Another great mechanic that comes with a deck is the suits. Triggers in Malifaux add a whole other level of strategy. Now, not only are you thinking about the number of the card, but which suit will let you get the trigger off. Do you risk cheating a lower/higher card than you wanted to use just for the suit? Do you spend a soul stone instead? It adds so much to the game and is another reason I fell in love with malifaux
Haha yeah! Super agree, Josh! I felt like I needed to simplify the content a little for the purposes of this video. But I might do a dedicated fate deck video later
Great job on he distributions. Way easy to visualize
🧮➗➖✖️➕🟰🧮➕➖➗🧮✖️➖
The resource management with the control hand and the soul stones are such a good part of it. Having the discard pile just changes the game so so much since the odds are always changing.
Another one is since 1 card is discarded at the start and when you get to the end of a deck and you don't know if you're about to draw a black joker or if it was discarded at the start
Hahaha that’s an exciting moment for sure! Good pull! Thanks Dave!
This video makes me super curious to know more about Malifaux
Mwahaha we've got you right where we want you :)
Let's see how deep this rabbit hole goes hahaha
@shauku77, Defective Dice was being modest. Here's his video about the lore haha--
th-cam.com/video/GLG9buY4xUU/w-d-xo.html
I am now subscribed to him too. Dang it!!
Let us know anytime if you need help ramping up! Even if we don't have the answers, we'll know people who do!
I agree , dice was the main reason i went into malifaux, and models of course
I knew dice were broken from X-Wing, where all the related mechanics were like re-rolls and focus tokens. Malifaux changed my outlook completely by making it resource management.
I really like idea of Malifaux mechanics, but never played it. Someday... someday...
Waiting for your channel to blow up!
It’s fun 😊
Nice vid! In addition to Malifaux, there are a number of other board games, RPGs, and miniature games that use card flips off a 54 deck of playing cards to replace the die roll. The deadlands RPG uses this, and its quickness stat determines the number of cards you draw at the start of the round, the highest of the cards drawn is used for initiative. The miniatures ruleset Horizon Wars Zero Dark uses a deck of cards to control the excellent AI in singleplayer/co-op. Card flips off the top will determine enemy placement, types of enemies placed, whether a grunt, elite, or boss is activated, and the suit determines the type of AI activation (clubs = command, diamonds = techinical, heart = support, spades = attack)
Bro. Thank you so much for this. I will check these out.
@@CornerCase If you really want to have your mind blown, I would take a look at the cooperative game regicide. It's one of the best cooperative games I've ever played, and the entire game is played with just a standard 54 card deck. There are literally no other components, just the deck. The rules are free online and it works with a normal deck of cards. However, I love the actual regicide deck for the amazing art.
Ooooo ok I love having my mind blown
That’s a great way to put it! I feel the same way, long live cards! That is in part why Gloomhaven is so popular, great system well balanced all cards.
For malifaux, I’d add that the system is so well designed that in for most turns you burn 70-90% of your deck, so every possible luck comes out one way or another which is very important for the system to feel just.
The only thing I would change is how math intensive the game feels. I feel like I’m getting a headache for every game. I’d love to see a video about that, and mechanisms to cope on that, especially since you said you were so anti-math lol
Thanks Jordi!
I think most miniature games I've played are math intensive in one way or another. Like in Infinity, you have to calculate, mimetism, cover, range band for a normal shot. In 40k, you have to compare toughness, compare armor, count 50 dice. Lol. I think it's more like what type of small maths are you willing to do when it comes to mini games XD
Another plus for cards is that a deck of cards itself can be a beautiful object. Or … a collection of beautiful objects, I guess. They are tactile and feel nice in the hands and there is no limit to the creativity that can go into card design itself - particularly, as in Malifaux’s case, when the deck uses non-standard suits. That’s something I’m an absolute sucker for. I recently got the deck of tarot cards they made as merch for the Dishonored series where the suits are Pistols, Swords, Hats and Rats and the joy I got from just looking through them was … actually probably disproportionate and specific to me.
I'm totally on board, Rob! I LOVE illustrations, and cards are a great way of introducing that into the gaming. Dice have a great aesthetic and feel to them, but for me, nothing beats illustrations!
I just love how much thought you can put into Malifaux. Yes, there are some more straightforward teams. But there are factions that have a real high barrier to entry, but are by no means bad.
Being at a disadvantage and trying to outthink and outmaneuver a superior enemy is super rewarding.
I play against super hard hitting teams and can't compete with them in a headlong fight, so having to think outside the box to win is a lot of fun.
Plus I also like the idea that you can win a game while having your entire force wiped out.
Yeah! I love seeing Pandora and Tara across the table. It’s always so weird and fun 😂. So much so that I’ve bought into Pandora 😂
🐍🐍🐍🐍🐍 am i doing it right
🎲🐍🎲🐍🎲
Thanks Discourse!
Great stuff, as usual…
🙇🏻🙇🏻🙇🏻🙇🏻
The board game Oathsworn actually has the option to play with dice or cards depending on preference. I definitely understand the attraction to either side, dice have more unpredictable outcomes and it's just physically satisfying to dump a bunch out, but cards do lend themselves better to planning/strategy.
Same with Settlers of Catan. They have a deck that is the 36 permutation distribution for 2D6. Since the distribution actually relates to their game where the location tokens have the prescribed probability listed on there. You can switch to cards to be more competitive.
I do agree that the tactile experience of chucking dice does have a huge impact on why people use them. I think once people realize they can be shuffling cards for half their game, that's its own tactile fun :D
Pretty knowledgeable assessment. Unfortunately I know this all too well.
As someone who also loves malifaux and dice , this is all good stuff. Love teaching people the odds and how the cards flip out. Though I do love both dice and cards. Come on people , do both !
Haha, thanks Kevin! XD. I think this topic needs more visibility. People like us know it and love it, but I think a majority of tabletop gamers need this info!
@@CornerCase true that I always look forward to your new vids. Keep up the good fight. Keep spreading the knowledge. Malifaux deserves the spot light having such lovey visuals and rich choice in backgrounds.
Instant Like for the Naruto Sound. ^^
💨
One of the first things I realized about Malifaux was that by using cards and cheating fate, each game feels different.
Even playing the same factions versus the same opponent with exactly the same lists.
Power gaming still can happen but it's subdued because of the draw.
Also with Malifaux there's no "flavor of the month" issues.
Love your content.
Same! I think what we’re talking about here implicitly is also the randomized encounter setup. I have another video coming up about input vs output randomness. It’s taking a while for me to consumerize the information, but it’s happening. I hope that by spotlighting game design, people who haven’t tried that many games have the information they need to want to try what I think are better games than what’s popular.
Also thanks, kruxigore. Appreciate the compliment.
@@CornerCase Keep at it, I think that relaying information to consumers is a big step. Most FLGS stock what sales have shown to be profitable but aren't always comfortable in stepping into new things. I'd wager some of your subscribers are shop owners too.
O that’s awesome! Good idea! Thanks Krux!
I found this useful.
Thank you! 🥳🥳🥳
Also something that I learned from a game designer... If the chances of success is 50% on the dice roll, the player will always feel that he succeeded 40% of the time
Thanks Manuel! I've heard something similar before, where designers for video games actually need to boost the real probability and communicate a lower probability to the player. The player will then feel like it's accurate.
@@CornerCase that's why X-com feels bloddy unfair hahaha
Yeah! I heard about it in regards to X-Com. There's also Fire Emblem and other turn based strategy RPG. I like that mechanic normally.
♠️
✊✊✊
So watching this for a second time two thoughts come up.
First is that the use of cards allows for you to count cards (yours and your opponents) to keep track of how luck will swing for the both of you. It also means that the rate at which you draw cards can be tatical too. Say if you've used all you good cards you might want to start to churn through cards really quickly to 'reset' your luck.
Second is that while card draws and rolling a single die are true random distributions, rolling two dice and adding them is not. Rather it's a normal distribution, meaning that most results will fall close to the average. While this is going to swing less it's got to feel less satisfying as it also means that your way less likely to get a really good roll.
Thanks Chris! This is super helpful 😊. Yeah, that’s something I didn’t talk about in a lot of detail-the specifics of manipulating your cards In Maifaux. But I also forgot about that idea of resetting your deck. Definitely I think a fun topic is attacking your opponents deck-forcing them to spend or flip good cards on duels that have little consequence or that don’t advance their agenda. I have an idea to make a video called “How to Stax” where I talk about how to build a Stax list in different miniatures games 😂
I can play control in miniatures??
You can stax
@@CornerCase when's that episode
It’ll be a whole series - “How to Stax In Malifaux” “How to Stax In Infinity”
I feel like too many dice rolls during a game threatens to break the fourth wall. I love rolling dice sometimes, but when I roll several times for a single action (roll to hit, roll to wound, let your target roll to save...) I start to see past the game world and realize I'm just playing Yahtzee with miniatures. I don't want to see through the game world.
I agree that cards offer an interesting pseudo-random element that changes the strategy of the game. I like it but wouldn't want to replace dice in all games. Also, I think it would have been better to compare a distribution between a d12, which is flat, rather than 2d6. Saying that the distribution between cards and dice is different, when the same difference exists between different rolling styles, isn't a strong point in favour of cards.
Thanks Coyote! I think thats why I brought in the discussion of mechanics. So I didn't really talk too much about mechanics I don't like in dice games, but X-Wing was guilty of a lot of re-rolls and focus tokens to try and guarantee results. It made it so some lists could forego luck entirely, and those were the ones that win. Whereas in cards, because it's resource management, making guaranteed results baseline means you can focus on mechanics that actually deny that. I think its definitely in the minutia--for example, re-rolling a charge roll, and you got the same result again. Vs in a deck of cards, it was impossible for you to get the same result on a re-roll. It feels less bad. It's gaming, so ultimately it does come down to the experience you enjoy. And what is Corner Case but a collection of this minutia :D
This is what brought me into Malifaux. Sadly no players in my area.
Freebooters Fate could be a game for you. It uses also cards and no dice. And is now out in english.
Thanks RD! I’ll check it out! Sorry about Malifaux in your area! There are far fewer around me than before but I still love collecting and painting, and the online community is awesome
Coming from the ttrpg world, dice and card distributions are a huge part in determining the 'feel' of a game. Sometimes the ability to get a success a theoretical infinite number of times is what's needed, and sometimes the curved distribution of 2d6 is needed to avoid the 'swingy' distribution of a single die.
What interests me about using cards is the ability to count cards. You know what's in your hand, and what's been played, with the odds of guessing what your opponent has with increasing accuracy. Though with those systems I think it's important to have an interesting and tactical way to use undesirable cards - either to gain an advantage other than numerical, or to intentionally sabotage other people's hands.
Miniature wargames that use the interpretive nature of tarot decks when? :v
Weird, I thought I replied to this. The Tarot Deck thing sounds really fun. I think a system based on that interpretive experience can be a really great collaboration game.
This is EXACTLY what keeps driving me away from Bloodbowl even though I love it conceptually.
SSSSSss- Am I doing this right?
You are correct. I never mentioned my bias that I actually really dislike the sound of dice on hard surfaces. The sssssssssssssssss of shuffled cards is very much preferred.
Only downside with cards is the ease of cheating compared to dice.
True! I hadn’t considered that! Luckily no one is betting their Millenium Falcon on a game of Malifaux 😏