This is the first time I’ve herd someone talk about this masculine and feminine distinction in Christian thought. God started showing me this concept but in a slightly different way. Just as the heart pumps blood into it and then out towards the body our metaphysical heart/soul was made with both masculine and feminine capabilities. We are to take the feminine role towards Christ ie the bride of Christ and take a masculine role towards the world which is why we are all called the sons of God.
Jordan Peterson ALSO helped me reconcile my own faith (cradle Catholic) with my own life experience (thus also consequences) which was a catalyst of returning to actual worship of my faith within mass and congregation and the Eucharist and confession etc.... since my personal learning style and hunger never changes, and TH-cam’s algorithms ( since they spy on my web history) make sure I always am I found YOU, JONATHAN, and your style of information as well as presentation has truly truly caused my faith to be able to delve so deeply into my own soul and relate my inner to my outer world in a way NOBODY has before. My art has evolved, my spirit has evolved, my brain has evolved in a theological manner that is almost unbelievable to myself however we both know it’s only unbelievable because it’s in fact, already believed (and seen)! I have so much gratitude towards your spirit for this and thank you. Also, thank you for introducing me to this man who (like me) grew up one way and had to pull myself out of the draw to liberalism. Thank you thank you thank you! God bless you both!
In Judaism, right before the groom unveils the face of his bride, he literally says "You are, thus, made sacred to/for me". The unveiling happens after, and is predicated on, the declaration of sacredness. I had never thought of it quite in that light before. Fascinating discussion, as always.
0:00 Jacob Russel 0:45 Intro • Tried Progresivism • Progresives Started being very strict on belief • Jordan Peterson helped him reconcile religion • Dived into Orthodoxy • He started a discord group and a Facebook group to continue the conversation on symbols and religion 11:00 Trying to make the abstract -> concrete 12:50 Fairytales with a pattern _“The Hero always Prevails”_
Jacob, I hear you man. The journey does make you feel crazy sometimes. I got lucky and found a young woman who has a passion for mythological narratives. She's an anthropologist, so she gets to explore that world in academic ways I don't, but we meet in the middle. I'm a lucky man. But aside from her, I typically get "the look" when I bring up these things. :) Also, Mr. Pageau, you are a light in an increasingly dark world, a world hostile to the traditional Christian spirit. The upside down world. Thank you so much. Whether you know it or not, you shine with the archetypal light of a warrior. You're fighting the good fight. Thank you good sir, from the bottom of my heart.
This concept of the veil is so interesting. I had an odd dream once where I was searching for "the answer" and it was as if God responded and told me, "you know, I'm actually doing you a favor by not revealing the whole mystery at once, you couldn't handle it." How could it be integrated into daily existence if your mind is just blown into bits and pieces?
The “feminine... masculine... masculine...” idea of the temple reminds me of the Jonah narrative where the great fish changes gender depending on it’s context in relationship to Jonah (pregnant fish with swallowed Jonah is female, resurrecting/sending/throwing up fish is male) if you dig into the original language used.
40:00 ish-45:00 ish I think you're missing the fact that marriage/love is reciprocal. It isn't that the man adores and protects his wife because she is his "holy place". Rather, both partners join together to create that holy place for one another, they both regard the other as sacred.
About the veils - before I was a catachumen, I was attending an Antiochian church that wasn't really pushing the head covering. I didn't think of it as something I should do. However, I was almost physically overborn with the heaviness of the holiness present there, and it was a great effort to make it to vespers. Always wonderful once I was there, but so heavy! One day it was the beginning of winter and the snow was falling (there's some symbolism there too), so for the first time I went with a hat on. Well, it made such a difference! I wasn't exactly comfortable but I wasn't cowering like a rabbit anymore either. I've headcovered ever since. Nobody ever made me feel like I had to - if anyone brought it up, it was other women and never a man, certainly never a priest - but boy did I want to! It's like having polarized glasses for driving. You can still see everything, but the glare is gone. While you are technically more covered, you can participate in your surroundings more.
Meanwhile my poor husband has to "stand in the Flame" every Sunday as an acolyte, and from the expression on his face appears to be in a state of slow shock throughout the whole service. The rassan helped some. But he always wonders, when the subject comes up, why on *earth* women would want access to the Holy Place. So they could come feel out of place with the guys? However, it does suddenly make a lot of sense to me that, as we have lost a cultural understanding of the woman as the sacred seat of Life (together with the Protestant rejection of the veneration of Mary or any female saints - ya ever notice how they have no trouble remembering the big-job male theologians?)...as we have lost that sense of the sacred feminine, more women have felt the need to go petition to be in the holy place. It's like we only want what we think we don't have. But we do have it already!
Never thought of it this way. But then I'm always covered and feel it's wired not to be in a church. Other Orthodox, like the Serbs or more liberal parishioners in my OCA church, can always tell a Russian one because we traditionally wear head scarfs or veils.
Just curious, but is there something wrong with a man bringing it up? I have a daughter, and she veils, and we attend an Eastern Orthodox Church, but the wife of the priest does not veil, and only a small number of other women veil, so knowing that children are affected by images I started respectfully asking the women why they veil and why they don't veil. The ones that veiled understood what Jonathan is saying, but to a lesser extent. The ones that didn't veil had some distorted teaching as to why it's okay not to veil. Since no woman in my parish would teach a class on it, I asked my priest to let me do it, and he gave me the blessing, but I have yet to complete it.
@@latinboyyy305 I don't know that there's any theological problem with a man bringing it up or teaching about it. I've certainly learned a lot from Mr Pageau about it. But because the accusation that the world levels at conservative Christian groups is that the men are all domineering over the women and tell them what to wear to and such nonsense, it's been helpful in my experience that no man actually told *me*, as a convert, what I should be wearing. But telling your own daughters or anyone interested in a class about it seems reasonable. You're hardly policing the narthex, which is what some folks seem to think happens in traditional parishes!
@@latinboyyy305 I don't know that there would be anything wrong with it. Especially as your priest blessed you to do it! As a convert in a world full of people who claim that conservative Christians are always trying to tell women what to wear, it was meaningful to me that nobody actually told me to headcover. Because it was the opposite of the cultural narrative.
This channel and even this video have been life affirming for me. I love how you Express not being able to talk to anyone, and the frustration with that has been something that has plagued me for many years. I feel the same way about the setup of the church. If it is set up like a concert, then that is probably what it is.
Its so good to see such intelligent and grounded people living out their Christian faith.. i wish i could overcome the "difficult people" issue and go back to church - i know im one of them too. Its just stressful for introverts
We need more conversations like this one! Unapologetically deep in symbolism. So mind-boggling and awesome. Also it's nice to get to know Jacob a bit more after seeing his name so often in the group. Great vid Jonathan
The command is love your neighbor AS YOURSELF so the "fruit" is the ability to show love to yourself by following Christ and loving your neighbor with the same heart of compassion, mercy, justice, freedom. Alignment, yes!!!
21:55 "It's the desiring capacity, the in-between capacity, that is focused in the wrong direction. Instead of looking up, which would order the body, it looks down. It idolizes the body, or fears for the bodily functions". This is a brilliant description of disalignment in life. If anyone knows where I can read more about precisely this, "falling into the body", please let me know!
I’m sympathetic to Christians and part of me even desires to be Christian but some bad childhood experiences leaves me with a strong resistance to committing. Discussions like these are probably going to be my path to taking the leap.
@Camaeh Gill Jesus and Christianity are two separate things. I mean that anyone can name themselves a Christian, but no one can take the name and works of Jesus. A direct relationship with Jesus and the Father, the intersessions are done...no more telephone game. Information doesn't come from one source, but many and the spirit guides you through it and the hills and valleys in the Bible. Especially as a woman Jesus breaks down all the structures and hierarchies of this world, creating a safer space for women to come out of hiding. He is the armor of God that protects and surrounds you, when a woman shifts her focus to God from man, you see the world differently. You approach the world differently, and continue to look up. You body and spirit become almost separate psychologically, meaning things don't penetrate your spirit as easily as before, you've built up resilience and renewed determination to overcome and continue. Forgiveness (for others wrongs is necessary, forgiveness for yourself as well) opens pathways for the spirit to enter in. Strengthens you. The embodiment of Jesus (salvation) renews hope that men can transform and accept the word of God, and women will be co-heirs in the new earth or New Jerusalem (come into oneness with each other) instead of under the curse and trodden down by men (as a social structure and corporal body), the serpent in the tree...when we are a children we see things as a child, when we are no longer children we see them as they are. Yet through Jesus, we forgive. Jesus as second Adam paid a debt that can't be grasped easily and when someone continues forward despite knowing the world's response to being challenged that is God's hand. All paths lead to Jesus, but Jesus is the door into the kingdom. A sacrifice of life for a promise in the future, how can you not be changed and hold onto that same hope. Everyone is given their own bonds to break, and no one can be held to account if Jesus is the one who forgives and gave freely on the cross, so that anyone who saw and grasped the totality of what was done in that moment salvation (the fallen state and barbaric nature of mankind, our frailty and weakness to take the easy path and follow the crowd so as not to stand out, the corruption of the human condition the more we play God, etc) God, through the son offering a light to follow (spiritually) and giving the promise of resurrection. Light is perceived before the mind can register it... Unjustified and innocent bloodshed, homelessness, poverty, violence, and the general state of this world reminds me of the cross and how many people don't truly believe in God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit. We are all in progress, but I fear the devistation people will bring on themselves and others.😕💔
Symbolism is so powerful and mysterious. This video did a great job at hashing at it. The discussion about veils and the feminine seems to make us dudes a bit uncomfortable, especially in this politically correct age. I think we are way too much "Western" about symbolism in general and the feminine in particular. I like Jonathan's statement that each level of the hierarchy has both masculine and feminine aspects .. it depends on context and what direction you're looking. I believe Jung would approve of this conversation. Jacob asked the same questions I've had ...
I love to veil at mass. At one point in time I was head covering all the time. I also prefer to wear skirts and I I think of that as a way of veiling as well.
When you mentioned fractals I shouted YES, I found the Mandelbrot Set years ago and had a moment of understanding and everyone but a few thought I was nuts. My kids still tease me about it
It's OK not know everything and not to have an answer to everything. It's OK to just say I don't know, it hasn't been revealed to me. Let's not over analyse and complicate the simple truth in the Word of God, but live by faith, have patience and be humble. Topics on the femine are a slippery slope, as it just leads to gnostisim, but we are indeed saved by the blood of Jesus. And at the end of the day that's all we need to know. God bless.
Maximus' Mystagogy is wonderful. I think what confounds people regarding soul and body therein is we forget that the work as a whole is centered on the Divine Liturgy which re-orients each to the other, grounding our whole being in Christ.
Hey, I am totally broke at the moment, but once I catch up on your subscriber only content I need to chat with you. I am the vice president of Arizona for an organization called National Alliance on Mental Illness as well as part of homeless outreach, drug related programs, and youth. I have over 95 churches in my town of around 20,000 people. This was so nice to hear the sincerity of this conversation, especially about the long live the king part.
Abstractions become understandable only when put in their proper frame. You have to understand what layer of abstraction you're at to understand what things mean. When you act something out you're either glorifying or corrupting the physical manifestation of your soul. I don't think you can get around the feedback loop there, which is why the power of compounding (incremental improvements/failures snowballing into great success/catastrophic failure) is so important. Either be lined up, or be a hypocrite and eventually fail. Very important to know, so you realize the consequences of your actions.
Hi fellas, I am glad to have stumbled across this channel. Kindred spirits are out there, I don't feel so alone now. When I found Jordan Peterson I realised I am not abnormal except to the word system.
Wow Jonathan! You just blew my mind! From the time i was a little girl I always wondered at the very interesting interplay of Hitler with the people and how they energy seemed in his speeches and why his speeches where able to hold so much sway over them. THIS insight is amazing and I will be paying attention to this dynamic. Thank you!
Whatever is above is traditionally portrayed as masculine. The soul is feminine in relation to the Spirit, but can be portrayed as masculine in relation to what is beneath, the body and the senses and the world as such.
God opens and closes the veil before Job in the whirlwind: “who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy looks like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.” Puts a buffer between the realities as you mentioned
Gen 49:27 describes Benjamin as a wolf, Romans 11:1 has Paul from the tribe of Benjamin, what with depictions of dog headed men... clearly Paul was a werewolf. I was describing the absurdity of such a literal interpretation to an orthodox friend and didn't realize how funny he would find it.
Hey Jonathan, are there any more basic spacial/geometric patterns than the center v the pariphery. The aformentioned pattern has really helped me a lot. Are there any more such patterns?
Piaget's Cognitive Development theory, stage 4 is Formal Operational thinking, 11 years old and up. When we begin to understand and apply abstract thinking. It's coming, Jacob!
@4.36 'didnt know what this dude was talking about'! Haha I felt the same earlier but was fascinated. Glad I ploughed on with JP's content. This too was enlightening 💜.
The process of recursion is very powerful and important to understand. How one thing can be part of itself. The simplest way to explain it might be the fibonacci sequence. The nth fibonacci number is the sum of the n-1st and n-2nd fibonacci number. So to compute the 3rd fibonacci number, you need to compute the second and the first. Now this has a base case at 1 and 2 (the first 2 fibonacci numbers are 1 and 1, so the sequence goes 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13...), whereas the base case of symbols can either be infinite (in theoretical ones), or that which manifests. But even in manifestation they can have a fractal nature. What's interesting is you don't talk about diversity and how Western nations are being forced to accept all "refugees" into their "house", and how that's leading to the utter destruction of society. Sad that's not mentioned.
The more I look at the Bible as literal truth the more I see it as symbolically true, but the more I learn about its symbolic meaning the more I see it as probably literally also true.
I’m hoping Jonathan can address this: he mentioned sin doesn’t come from the body but from the mind. As we all know teens with raging hormones have issues with self control bc the hormones do exert influence on neurotransmitters which regulate and influence brain function. So then, physical processes and fluids can influence behavior and possibly the potential for sinning - such as having sex without love or marriage. I’d love to hear some discourse on this 😊
If our minds are directed towards higher, wholesome things, the physical impulses are calmer and hold less sway over us, even when we're young. But if we're untaught (like most of us), we give too much attention to these impulses and often even feed them with inappropriate material, so they become tyrannical.
The idea remains the same. Sin originates from the soul. Temptation originates from outside the soul pointing towards the soul to corrupt it. Temptation comes from the body or the material world. Hormones playing up can be regarded as temptation. The mind could choose not to have sex before marriage, but the sweet temptation of doing it is what we usually buy into. Once we've done that, we've sinned. Sin is the soul falling pray to temptations. So it is not the body or the material world that makes one sin. The body and the matter can tempt, and the temptation can be very strong, but not as strong to overwhelm the soul. The soul is and has always been the conqueror, the one that has the last decisive word on wheter to buy into a temptation or not. But the soul prefers sweetness as opposed to virtue. This makes the soul corrupt. A corrupt soul still is sovereign and could not sin, but it just doesn't want not to sin. But it is always the soul's choice whether to follow a temptation or not. The body and the matter, or temptation, has never rulled over the soul because it can't. It is the other way round. The soul is made to rule over the body, but it just refuses to do so, and therein lies the tragedy of the human condition. So it is not a matter of not being able to not sim, but one of not wanting to stop sinning and giving into the sweet temptetion consoling oneself thsy is not such a big deal. Who really wants not to sin they are able to by keeping a sober mind so as to detect when temptation comes and deal with it appropriately, not give into it. So, never blame anything for your falling into sin except your own self. Thay is what Adam and Eve should have done, but they blamed the snake instead. So don't blame the hormones or puberty for making you sin. Nobody makes you sin, you do it yourself.
Hebrews 4:16 New King James Version (NKJV) 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Be blessed.
What JP is talking about around 24:00 really reminds me of Arthur Koestlers notion of a holarchy, as laid out in The Ghost in the Machine. Normally when we think of a hierarchy we only pay attention to one direction. Koestler points out that everything in the hierarchy is simultaneously uniting lower units in the hierachy and is contained within higher units of the hierarchy. So there is always this Janus aspect, a facing in two directions, within the hierachy. In a way obvious, but easy to forget.
Biblically speaking the soul is the combination of body and spirit. Gen. 2: 7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
This very scripture means man himself is the soul. If not, the scripture would have read, “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and put a soul inside the man.”
only just 'happened' (or perhaps not), on this channel, but interesting so far. my thoughts about spirituality, christian spirituality, are much like some of what you speak... I describe my own experience(s), like an 'Implosion' , in other words, one has to enter in to the calmer deeper internalisation of thought & reflection - Recede actually into that place of sanctuary where the Holy Spirit sits, and once you have been sucked or drawn in, within, then at some point BOOM you will experience the Implosion which blasts out or pours forth, and OPENS up the endlessness of ETERNITY and clarity... GOD's Eternity that is. ... the Mystical Understanding and Body of CHRIST, what the monastics might have experienced in disciplined Contemplative Prayer... I will turn in. thank you.
@@watermelonlalala im interested to know why those are starting to be popular topics and how the whole new age movements kinda is a big mesh of Buddhism and gnostism and other esoteric things like it I dont know if im using the word right but do you see it similarly
@@ferpineda5022 Starting to be? The boomers were raised on Madame Blavatsky and Aleister Crowley and the Golden Dawn and that stuff was old then. The new age movement was almost all Jews and elite Harvard types peddling snake oil to Christian kids, nothing more. Richard Smoley - has a some Theosophical lectures here on youtube. He isn't that great a speaker, unfortunately. But he is a big kahuna in that kind of stuff.
Yes, there is a difference. It helps to know that soul is flesh and spirit is not. Spirit is connected to the Source. The soul is connected to the body as a vessel. What u do with soul impacts the body. Sin affects it all. Mind, will, and emotions are soul. The Spirit breathed spirit (breath) into man. We are spirit beings having a human body experience .
Nous, soul, body, as well as the moral nature of the interrelationship you describe, is identical to Robert Pirsig's Metaphysics of Quality as outlined in his novel 'Lila'. He calls these three distinct 'patterns of value', intellectual, social, biological, with the addition of inorganic, again, a further layer that acts as a 'vessel' for the 'liberated' biological level. He would also agree that each type of value has two aspects, 'dynamic' and 'static'.
I'll have to read it soon.. I've only listened to Robert Breedlove's series on the book "Lila." What is a resource you would reccomend to understand what a Nous is? I believe this interview is the first I'm hearing of it.
@@drewsimon9652 Nous is intellectual patterns of value, and their less distinct mysterious source. It lives (all austere and silent) just above words and symbols and so forth. Where it comes from and how it relates to the world is where all the contention is. Personally, I find most Christian/Platonic metaphysics confusing compared to Pirsig.
How does the necessity of the veil (which you discuss at around the 40:00 mark) and mystery sit with the idea of us seeing with unveiled faces that we read about in 2 Corinthians 3:18?
Jonathan Pageau Indeed, 2 Cor 3 does seem clear. I think that was the commenter's point. A useful analogy may be a cliff whose top is shrouded by cloud a thousand feet up. What's at the top? We can't see it for the cloud. But when the cloud is blown away, the top comes into view Right? No more mystery? With the cloud gone, an elemental mystery has turned into a divine one: we now see... we see the cliff is infinite in height. Who needs a cloud for mystery? ("a childish toy") Analogy courtesy of Protestant Jonathan Edwards. I find myself defending Protestants when I hear over-simplified descriptions of them such as those in this and other of your videos. Certain of Christianity's great works on fractal symbology have come from Protestants: they're not all into worship bands and flippant discourse - not even mainly. How about a video like, 'things we can learn from the Protestant tradition(s)' ? I bet that'd be refreshing for you and challenging to your subscribers. btw, yes, all analogies (an inherent limitation of the finite) break down at some point. That's actually the real point of that analogy - only, where it breaks down is not marked by the cloud, but where our finite eyesight becomes cloudy. The analogy's breakdown, therefore unfolds it into another useful and more direct one; one which experientially informs the mind that the cliff is infinite. Fractals. Oz does, but an infinite Wizard needs no curtains. (note that word 'needs' well)
The veil ripping gave us access to the throne of God, yet we see through a glass darkly. Protection from angels for women is hard to accept in as much that there are few men, husbands etc who are spiritually minded to cover.
Just adding some cultural context to the point about women and veils and also why Paul says "because of the angels" :1corith 11:10. ancient Greco-Roman medical texts speak about the hair of men and women as being integral to conception. If a women had long healthy hair, it was believed she would be fertile. It was believed the sperm of the man was absorbed and aided by the woman's long hair. But for men, the length of ones hair made you either potent if you had short hair or less potent if you had long hair. The reference to "because of the Angels" links up with Genesis 6:1-4. Paul understood what happened in Gen 6:-14, as did the Greeks with Zeus and the Titans, and the Babylonian Apkallu. All ancient near eastern cultures and by extension the Greco-Roman world as well as the Israelites had the stories of divine beings/Angels talking human women and producing offspring. 2nd temple Jewish writings, the writings that Jesus, the disciples and Paul would have read and known, as well as the early church fathers until Augustine(who really rewrote the narrative) speak in detail to this as polemic against Israel's pagan neighbor's. Paul's point was to warn women to remain modest so as not to see another incursion from the Watchers.
Your reading may have some truth to it, especially as many learned men through the ages have taken your view, so it is clearly not without merit. But it seems to me Paul's argument is more about orderliness, hierarchy, and glory rather than modesty. Verse 10 is weird because the conclusion sort of has two arguments pointing to it, the first being from verse 9 (creation order/design) and the second "because of the angels": 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have authority on her head, because of the angels. It would be normal to take the reference to angels as fitting in with the general theme of the passage. You could argue that not tempting the angels to sin would be in keeping with proper order, but that would be to apply a modesty motif which is only present as a corollary, and there is clearly nothing in the passage itself that would necessitate that view. I think it is safer to take the reference to angels as not offending them in their attendance at divine worship by ladies' throwing off their veils and trespassing God's design in creation, revealing man's glory when only God's glory should be seen.
Pondering your view again, if you say that unveiled women at worship may tempt angels to lust, oughtn't it be a matter of considerable importance that veiling be strictly mandated?
It is two years later but for the one who will see this, there is no mystery to be hidden or veiled after Christ(Rev 3:8). In fact I see the veiled opened according to necessity but it is never fully closed.”behold I have opened a door before you that no man can shut…because you have a little strength and have kept my name”. The only way the veil is closed is by not keeping his name. Secondly, Paul says the woman should cover her head because her hair is her glory. Therefore the covering after our betrothal to Christ cannot be similar to the old covenant where it faced a danger of profanity. The holy one became profane that we may be made holy. Therefore the betrothed of Christ is veiled as a mark of her groom’s authority over her.
Why isn’t there much discussion about the SPIRIT of humanity because this is the one who will live eternity with or separated from God. I want to learn how my spirit can better control my soul so that I can live for Christ, as in taking every thought captive SO THAT I can choose to live my utmost for His glory
First off before I asked my question I feel it's important to explain that I am in no way an academic LOL that would be my wife! LOL anyhow to make a very long story short I've been doing a lot of searching and researching and looking into things because I too have had a major paradigm shift in the last couple months with regard to my faith. My wife decided to get involved in our local Orthodox Christian Church and I went to a couple services with her and obviously it was completely different than anything I've ever been used to but I definitely know that there's something there that is for me and so slowly I'm trying to learn what it's all about. I say all of that to ask question about this site please.. somebody explain to me in a very simple way what this whole idea of symbolism really encompasses please? I've watched a couple different podcasts from this channel and I really enjoy the content but I kind of hear crickets in the background when we start talking about the idea of symbolism. :-)
Great video! When you talked about skipping levels and you get a monster at 45:40 . That blew my mind. I cant Express how awesome it is you said that in a way I understood.
I found this interesting as they poked at Protestants who avoid symbolism and embrace literalism. I believe God’s word is both symbolic and literal. And this video is a perfect example of brokenness. The Protestant relies solely on literal interpretation and falls short. These guys rely heavily on symbolism and fall short. They are both accurate and mankind falls short in their understanding of God because they view the other as blasphemous
I'm being I'm being torn apart like a sheep for slaughter pray for me that I come to true faith everything they're saying my so longs of my soul is so disordered and needs truth anybody reading this prayer I find a healthy church and healthy fellowship and Divine healing
Yes, I'd like that, too. Protestants have been screwing everything up for 500 years, and this is coming from someone with a United Methodist background.
@@OrthoReadings True that, I am not into the Roman church, nor the Antiochian church or the Russian church or any other denomination, I am talking about the Traditional Catholic Church, the one that Jesus founded.
Irod Jetson There are no denominations in the Church that Christ founded, the antiochian and Russian orthodox churches are not denominations, just jurisdictions with their respective patriarchs, just like in the times of the Bible. St. James for Jerusalem, St. Peter for Antioch, St. Mark for Alexandria, etc. The beautiful thing about The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is that it had maintained its theological doctrines for 2,000 years, regardless of what language a jurisdiction speaks. St. Paul wrote epistles to different churches, which were all under the authority of their respective bishops. Isn’t it amazing that St. Peter founded the Church of Antioch, which is where Christians were first called Christians (Acts 11:26), and 2,000 years later we still have an antiochian orthodox bishop? There were jurisdictions in the Bible (epistles), calling them denominations would be a silly Protestant thing to say, considering they all had the same doctrine.
@@OrthoReadings Sounds very good, but not true at all, to say that it has kept 2000 years of doctrines is very silly and false, keeping the creed is one thing, but to say that it has remain the same from the beginning it's clearly a lie: the notion that the Divine Liturgy has been in place since the days of the apostles is misleading and grossly oversimplified. In fact, the oldest surviving liturgy in use by orthodoxy today is the “Liturgy of St. James,” which dates no earlier than the 4th century. Back in the early church even the use of images in churches were condemned you can read in the 394 letter from Saint Epiphanius to the bishop of Jerusalem, this concept even present in the the 36th Canon of the Synod of Elvira (c.305-306). I could go on with many changes that orthodoxy had in the past, and how the different "jurisdictions" of orthodox churches have differ over time... The keys to the kingdom were given by Jesus Christ himself to St. Peter, and even church fathers St. Irenaeus, St. Cyprian, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Dionysius of Corinth and many others recognized the hierarchy level of the church "at Rome", and recognized that St. Peter suffered martyrdom in Rome; he did go to Antioch but declared there the first bishop Evadius, and in Rome after him Saint Linus... If you get away from the Keys of heaven given by Christ, you are not following the "Traditional Catholic Church", and I don't call it "Roman" because the catholic church is not of human or earthly jurisdiction. and well. anyways my question was to Jonathan.
Irod Jetson How silly of you to cite Epiphanius’s opposition to images when the same argument would be applied to the church in Rome, even more so with its use of statues. That is a goofy Protestant attempt to refute the use of images, especially because the church does not decide it’s doctrine with the opinion of one man. Moreover, church fathers/saints are not infallible and err. The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, dogmatized the use of Holy icons in the 7th ecumenical council. The Saints always acknowledged that Rome was doubly Apostolic and the first among equals but you are confusing that primacy with supremacy. The Pope was never an infallible bishop with universal jurisdiction over the entire church as you have been misled to believe. We know this from canon 6 of the 1st ecumenical council, which grants the same privileges to other jurisdictions. There is no magical charism of St. Peter. That is a Vatican I innovation. So now it becomes clear that you are projecting your insecurities of your false church on the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The Roman Church is the innovator (I.e. celibate priests, filioque, Vatican 2 nonsense, liturgical abuse), so remove the log from your own eye. The Orthodox Church rejects the notion that theological doctrine evolves. Rather, we assert that doctrine is expounded on via revelation. The Roman Church no longer has the keys. It is no longer the first among equals, it has lost its title due to apostasy, and if the pagan syncretism happening at the Amazon synod doesn’t prove that to you, then you are lying to yourself, and you will be held more accountable for denying the truth.
The alignment is to be connected with the Source. If you have a relationship with the Holy Spirit and your worship is in order and your heart is cleansed, u can be the chosen vessel to be used to produce the fruits of the Spirit. We don't do anything, it's the Holy Spirit working thru us to accomplish and establish what is to glorify God not us.
anyone have suggestions for videos to watch to understand the "basics"? most of this video was gibberish to me lol still enjoyed it quite a bit though! thank you!
thanks for talking about this in long-form conversation. it seems modern culture is intent on removing symbolism entirely from the collective consciousness and it's really dismantling what we used to hold sacred and what has been holding our society together for so long. When you were talking about how women need to be veiled/remain mysterious/protected from us/is the holy place for man, this just resonated with me on a primal level. Often we (men) fall in love with the idea of a woman, which includes that feminine mystery, and so that feeling goes away when you see her more and more for what she really is - a human - and not just the purely positive symbolic representation of the feminine. I wonder if this is why we're so drawn to novelty, or at the very least, the idea of renewal, not in the sense of rebirth, but to make something unknown and mysterious again (perhaps this is just the other side of the same coin?)
Jonathan seems to imply the king directly speaking to the populace is not necessary sometimes. Sometimes the tree/heirarchy/levels of quality are not there to hold up the world, but instead to provide a social rejuvenation. In those moments a 'ground-level' king among men style revolution is a great opportunity to bring new first principles to bear. The hitler story is a corruption of this cycle, usually when insufficiently valuable *new* first principles exist to commit to a revolution.
One last thought…I’m wondering if the “temple” that scripture warns is where the antichrist will “sit” and claims the be god…is actually the human body (through taking the mark) and is the newest effort of fallen angels hijacking humans. Scriptures also say in Daniel 2:43 “their seed will attempt to mix with human seeds but will not mix” just as iron and clay cannot mix/stick together. I think many are missing this. I see it when I read end of days scriptures
My personal point of view is that there is spirit and there is body. Perhaps soul comprises the two as being the whole person. Spirit and body were originally supposed to compliment each other, but with original sin, they are now in a conflict that the Church refers to as concupiscence. Both Jews and Muslims have a term to express this 'fallen state.' May God bless and guide your studies gentlemen. 😇
This is the first time I’ve herd someone talk about this masculine and feminine distinction in Christian thought. God started showing me this concept but in a slightly different way. Just as the heart pumps blood into it and then out towards the body our metaphysical heart/soul was made with both masculine and feminine capabilities. We are to take the feminine role towards Christ ie the bride of Christ and take a masculine role towards the world which is why we are all called the sons of God.
Let the men, women, and children of the Earth come forth to gather and behold the power of Atom!
“Jordan Peterson helped me reconcile the value of religion in my life” Perfect way to articulate this. Thank you.
Jordan Peterson ALSO helped me reconcile my own faith (cradle Catholic) with my own life experience (thus also consequences) which was a catalyst of returning to actual worship of my faith within mass and congregation and the Eucharist and confession etc.... since my personal learning style and hunger never changes, and TH-cam’s algorithms ( since they spy on my web history) make sure I always am I found YOU, JONATHAN, and your style of information as well as presentation has truly truly caused my faith to be able to delve so deeply into my own soul and relate my inner to my outer world in a way NOBODY has before. My art has evolved, my spirit has evolved, my brain has evolved in a theological manner that is almost unbelievable to myself however we both know it’s only unbelievable because it’s in fact, already believed (and seen)!
I have so much gratitude towards your spirit for this and thank you. Also, thank you for introducing me to this man who (like me) grew up one way and had to pull myself out of the draw to liberalism. Thank you thank you thank you!
God bless you both!
Jacob “my beard overfloweth” Russell
Michael Parsons underrated
In Judaism, right before the groom unveils the face of his bride, he literally says "You are, thus, made sacred to/for me".
The unveiling happens after, and is predicated on, the declaration of sacredness.
I had never thought of it quite in that light before.
Fascinating discussion, as always.
0:00 Jacob Russel
0:45 Intro
• Tried Progresivism
• Progresives Started being very strict on belief
• Jordan Peterson helped him reconcile religion
• Dived into Orthodoxy
• He started a discord group and a Facebook group to continue the conversation on symbols and religion
11:00 Trying to make the abstract -> concrete
12:50 Fairytales with a pattern
_“The Hero always Prevails”_
You forgot Jacobs epic laugh at 40:46
Jacob, I hear you man. The journey does make you feel crazy sometimes. I got lucky and found a young woman who has a passion for mythological narratives. She's an anthropologist, so she gets to explore that world in academic ways I don't, but we meet in the middle. I'm a lucky man. But aside from her, I typically get "the look" when I bring up these things. :)
Also, Mr. Pageau, you are a light in an increasingly dark world, a world hostile to the traditional Christian spirit. The upside down world.
Thank you so much. Whether you know it or not, you shine with the archetypal light of a warrior. You're fighting the good fight. Thank you good sir, from the bottom of my heart.
This concept of the veil is so interesting. I had an odd dream once where I was searching for "the answer" and it was as if God responded and told me, "you know, I'm actually doing you a favor by not revealing the whole mystery at once, you couldn't handle it." How could it be integrated into daily existence if your mind is just blown into bits and pieces?
The “feminine... masculine... masculine...” idea of the temple reminds me of the Jonah narrative where the great fish changes gender depending on it’s context in relationship to Jonah (pregnant fish with swallowed Jonah is female, resurrecting/sending/throwing up fish is male) if you dig into the original language used.
And lo! a pillar of fire descended from the chin of Jacob, and it was speechless.
40:00 ish-45:00 ish
I think you're missing the fact that marriage/love is reciprocal. It isn't that the man adores and protects his wife because she is his "holy place". Rather, both partners join together to create that holy place for one another, they both regard the other as sacred.
About the veils - before I was a catachumen, I was attending an Antiochian church that wasn't really pushing the head covering. I didn't think of it as something I should do. However, I was almost physically overborn with the heaviness of the holiness present there, and it was a great effort to make it to vespers. Always wonderful once I was there, but so heavy! One day it was the beginning of winter and the snow was falling (there's some symbolism there too), so for the first time I went with a hat on. Well, it made such a difference! I wasn't exactly comfortable but I wasn't cowering like a rabbit anymore either. I've headcovered ever since. Nobody ever made me feel like I had to - if anyone brought it up, it was other women and never a man, certainly never a priest - but boy did I want to! It's like having polarized glasses for driving. You can still see everything, but the glare is gone. While you are technically more covered, you can participate in your surroundings more.
Meanwhile my poor husband has to "stand in the Flame" every Sunday as an acolyte, and from the expression on his face appears to be in a state of slow shock throughout the whole service. The rassan helped some. But he always wonders, when the subject comes up, why on *earth* women would want access to the Holy Place. So they could come feel out of place with the guys? However, it does suddenly make a lot of sense to me that, as we have lost a cultural understanding of the woman as the sacred seat of Life (together with the Protestant rejection of the veneration of Mary or any female saints - ya ever notice how they have no trouble remembering the big-job male theologians?)...as we have lost that sense of the sacred feminine, more women have felt the need to go petition to be in the holy place. It's like we only want what we think we don't have. But we do have it already!
Never thought of it this way. But then I'm always covered and feel it's wired not to be in a church. Other Orthodox, like the Serbs or more liberal parishioners in my OCA church, can always tell a Russian one because we traditionally wear head scarfs or veils.
Just curious, but is there something wrong with a man bringing it up? I have a daughter, and she veils, and we attend an Eastern Orthodox Church, but the wife of the priest does not veil, and only a small number of other women veil, so knowing that children are affected by images I started respectfully asking the women why they veil and why they don't veil. The ones that veiled understood what Jonathan is saying, but to a lesser extent. The ones that didn't veil had some distorted teaching as to why it's okay not to veil. Since no woman in my parish would teach a class on it, I asked my priest to let me do it, and he gave me the blessing, but I have yet to complete it.
@@latinboyyy305 I don't know that there's any theological problem with a man bringing it up or teaching about it. I've certainly learned a lot from Mr Pageau about it. But because the accusation that the world levels at conservative Christian groups is that the men are all domineering over the women and tell them what to wear to and such nonsense, it's been helpful in my experience that no man actually told *me*, as a convert, what I should be wearing. But telling your own daughters or anyone interested in a class about it seems reasonable. You're hardly policing the narthex, which is what some folks seem to think happens in traditional parishes!
@@latinboyyy305 I don't know that there would be anything wrong with it. Especially as your priest blessed you to do it! As a convert in a world full of people who claim that conservative Christians are always trying to tell women what to wear, it was meaningful to me that nobody actually told me to headcover. Because it was the opposite of the cultural narrative.
This channel and even this video have been life affirming for me. I love how you Express not being able to talk to anyone, and the frustration with that has been something that has plagued me for many years. I feel the same way about the setup of the church. If it is set up like a concert, then that is probably what it is.
26:58 "between the lover and the...love-ee"...I think the word you were looking for was "beloved"
Its so good to see such intelligent and grounded people living out their Christian faith.. i wish i could overcome the "difficult people" issue and go back to church - i know im one of them too. Its just stressful for introverts
Jacob, your humbleness is refreshing. Thank you for allowing us to go on this thought journey with you.
We need more conversations like this one! Unapologetically deep in symbolism. So mind-boggling and awesome. Also it's nice to get to know Jacob a bit more after seeing his name so often in the group. Great vid Jonathan
The command is love your neighbor AS YOURSELF so the "fruit" is the ability to show love to yourself by following Christ and loving your neighbor with the same heart of compassion, mercy, justice, freedom. Alignment, yes!!!
As an Orthodox, I have to say the intro song gets me so pumped every time. Makes me look forward to Pascha.
21:55 "It's the desiring capacity, the in-between capacity, that is focused in the wrong direction. Instead of looking up, which would order the body, it looks down. It idolizes the body, or fears for the bodily functions". This is a brilliant description of disalignment in life. If anyone knows where I can read more about precisely this, "falling into the body", please let me know!
I’m sympathetic to Christians and part of me even desires to be Christian but some bad childhood experiences leaves me with a strong resistance to committing. Discussions like these are probably going to be my path to taking the leap.
@Camaeh Gill
Jesus and Christianity are two separate things. I mean that anyone can name themselves a Christian, but no one can take the name and works of Jesus. A direct relationship with Jesus and the Father, the intersessions are done...no more telephone game. Information doesn't come from one source, but many and the spirit guides you through it and the hills and valleys in the Bible. Especially as a woman Jesus breaks down all the structures and hierarchies of this world, creating a safer space for women to come out of hiding. He is the armor of God that protects and surrounds you, when a woman shifts her focus to God from man, you see the world differently. You approach the world differently, and continue to look up. You body and spirit become almost separate psychologically, meaning things don't penetrate your spirit as easily as before, you've built up resilience and renewed determination to overcome and continue. Forgiveness (for others wrongs is necessary, forgiveness for yourself as well) opens pathways for the spirit to enter in. Strengthens you. The embodiment of Jesus (salvation) renews hope that men can transform and accept the word of God, and women will be co-heirs in the new earth or New Jerusalem (come into oneness with each other) instead of under the curse and trodden down by men (as a social structure and corporal body), the serpent in the tree...when we are a children we see things as a child, when we are no longer children we see them as they are. Yet through Jesus, we forgive. Jesus as second Adam paid a debt that can't be grasped easily and when someone continues forward despite knowing the world's response to being challenged that is God's hand. All paths lead to Jesus, but Jesus is the door into the kingdom. A sacrifice of life for a promise in the future, how can you not be changed and hold onto that same hope. Everyone is given their own bonds to break, and no one can be held to account if Jesus is the one who forgives and gave freely on the cross, so that anyone who saw and grasped the totality of what was done in that moment salvation (the fallen state and barbaric nature of mankind, our frailty and weakness to take the easy path and follow the crowd so as not to stand out, the corruption of the human condition the more we play God, etc) God, through the son offering a light to follow (spiritually) and giving the promise of resurrection. Light is perceived before the mind can register it... Unjustified and innocent bloodshed, homelessness, poverty, violence, and the general state of this world reminds me of the cross and how many people don't truly believe in God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit. We are all in progress, but I fear the devistation people will bring on themselves and others.😕💔
Symbolism is so powerful and mysterious. This video did a great job at hashing at it. The discussion about veils and the feminine seems to make us dudes a bit uncomfortable, especially in this politically correct age. I think we are way too much "Western" about symbolism in general and the feminine in particular. I like Jonathan's statement that each level of the hierarchy has both masculine and feminine aspects .. it depends on context and what direction you're looking. I believe Jung would approve of this conversation. Jacob asked the same questions I've had ...
Yes, a veil is indicative of a spirit of piety. Absolutely fascination discussion. 🤗😇🙏
The Soul is the living thing within us. The Soul is a part, particle of God.....
I love to veil at mass. At one point in time I was head covering all the time. I also prefer to wear skirts and I I think of that as a way of veiling as well.
When you mentioned fractals I shouted YES, I found the Mandelbrot Set years ago and had a moment of understanding and everyone but a few thought I was nuts. My kids still tease me about it
It's OK not know everything and not to have an answer to everything. It's OK to just say I don't know, it hasn't been revealed to me. Let's not over analyse and complicate the simple truth in the Word of God, but live by faith, have patience and be humble. Topics on the femine are a slippery slope, as it just leads to gnostisim, but we are indeed saved by the blood of Jesus. And at the end of the day that's all we need to know. God bless.
What is the Symbolism of myrrh streaming icons, such as the Iveron icon of Montreal?
Great stuff Jonathan, keep it coming.
Maximus' Mystagogy is wonderful. I think what confounds people regarding soul and body therein is we forget that the work as a whole is centered on the Divine Liturgy which re-orients each to the other, grounding our whole being in Christ.
Hey, I am totally broke at the moment, but once I catch up on your subscriber only content I need to chat with you. I am the vice president of Arizona for an organization called National Alliance on Mental Illness as well as part of homeless outreach, drug related programs, and youth. I have over 95 churches in my town of around 20,000 people. This was so nice to hear the sincerity of this conversation, especially about the long live the king part.
We don't even have a veil in the form of a pay wall for pornography sites any more.
Satan is non discriminatory
This was very helpful. More talks about hierarchy and knights please.
39:40 Is there a video where Jonathan elaborates on how he means this "saved by Jesus doesn't mean anything" rant?
Abstractions become understandable only when put in their proper frame. You have to understand what layer of abstraction you're at to understand what things mean.
When you act something out you're either glorifying or corrupting the physical manifestation of your soul. I don't think you can get around the feedback loop there, which is why the power of compounding (incremental improvements/failures snowballing into great success/catastrophic failure) is so important.
Either be lined up, or be a hypocrite and eventually fail. Very important to know, so you realize the consequences of your actions.
You do always have access to it when u are connected to the Source . It's about relationship
Hi fellas, I am glad to have stumbled across this channel. Kindred spirits are out there, I don't feel so alone now. When I found Jordan Peterson I realised I am not abnormal except to the word system.
What's the name of the discord group? Is it private? Thanks for the video guys.
Where can one find this discord server?
discord.gg/YX4D9yJ
Join the Facebook group first. Its the most active
Damn, seems to have expired
Wow Jonathan! You just blew my mind! From the time i was a little girl I always wondered at the very interesting interplay of Hitler with the people and how they energy seemed in his speeches and why his speeches where able to hold so much sway over them. THIS insight is amazing and I will be paying attention to this dynamic. Thank you!
Whatever is above is traditionally portrayed as masculine. The soul is feminine in relation to the Spirit, but can be portrayed as masculine in relation to what is beneath, the body and the senses and the world as such.
Many so called Christian men don't understand the sanctity of marriage and holy union, it is refreshing to see men who get it.
God opens and closes the veil before Job in the whirlwind: “who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy looks like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.” Puts a buffer between the realities as you mentioned
Spirit is the feminine after thought and it carries out the souls desire like the spirit animates the will of the soul.
Gen 49:27 describes Benjamin as a wolf, Romans 11:1 has Paul from the tribe of Benjamin, what with depictions of dog headed men... clearly Paul was a werewolf. I was describing the absurdity of such a literal interpretation to an orthodox friend and didn't realize how funny he would find it.
Hey Jonathan, are there any more basic spacial/geometric patterns than the center v the pariphery. The aformentioned pattern has really helped me a lot. Are there any more such patterns?
Piaget's Cognitive Development theory, stage 4 is Formal Operational thinking, 11 years old and up. When we begin to understand and apply abstract thinking. It's coming, Jacob!
What an amazing and much needed talk!
Thank you! Especially the part about the veil! 🔥
Is this one of the best TH-cam videos yet to be made? I'm amazed and entranced
@4.36 'didnt know what this dude was talking about'! Haha I felt the same earlier but was fascinated. Glad I ploughed on with JP's content. This too was enlightening 💜.
The process of recursion is very powerful and important to understand. How one thing can be part of itself.
The simplest way to explain it might be the fibonacci sequence.
The nth fibonacci number is the sum of the n-1st and n-2nd fibonacci number. So to compute the 3rd fibonacci number, you need to compute the second and the first.
Now this has a base case at 1 and 2 (the first 2 fibonacci numbers are 1 and 1, so the sequence goes 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13...), whereas the base case of symbols can either be infinite (in theoretical ones), or that which manifests. But even in manifestation they can have a fractal nature.
What's interesting is you don't talk about diversity and how Western nations are being forced to accept all "refugees" into their "house", and how that's leading to the utter destruction of society. Sad that's not mentioned.
The more I look at the Bible as literal truth the more I see it as symbolically true, but the more I learn about its symbolic meaning the more I see it as probably literally also true.
I’m hoping Jonathan can address this: he mentioned sin doesn’t come from the body but from the mind. As we all know teens with raging hormones have issues with self control bc the hormones do exert influence on neurotransmitters which regulate and influence brain function. So then, physical processes and fluids can influence behavior and possibly the potential for sinning - such as having sex without love or marriage. I’d love to hear some discourse on this 😊
If our minds are directed towards higher, wholesome things, the physical impulses are calmer and hold less sway over us, even when we're young. But if we're untaught (like most of us), we give too much attention to these impulses and often even feed them with inappropriate material, so they become tyrannical.
The idea remains the same. Sin originates from the soul. Temptation originates from outside the soul pointing towards the soul to corrupt it. Temptation comes from the body or the material world. Hormones playing up can be regarded as temptation. The mind could choose not to have sex before marriage, but the sweet temptation of doing it is what we usually buy into. Once we've done that, we've sinned. Sin is the soul falling pray to temptations. So it is not the body or the material world that makes one sin. The body and the matter can tempt, and the temptation can be very strong, but not as strong to overwhelm the soul. The soul is and has always been the conqueror, the one that has the last decisive word on wheter to buy into a temptation
or not. But the soul prefers sweetness as opposed to virtue. This makes the soul corrupt. A corrupt soul still is sovereign and could not sin, but it just doesn't want not to sin. But it is always the soul's choice whether to follow a temptation or not. The body and the matter, or temptation, has never rulled over the soul because it can't. It is the other way round. The soul is made to rule over the body, but it just refuses to do so, and therein lies the tragedy of the human condition. So it is not a matter of not being able to not sim, but one of not wanting to stop sinning and giving into the sweet temptetion consoling oneself thsy is not such a big deal. Who really wants not to sin they are able to by keeping a sober mind so as to detect when temptation comes and deal with it appropriately, not give into it. So, never blame anything for your falling into sin except your own self. Thay is what Adam and Eve should have done, but they blamed the snake instead. So don't blame the hormones or puberty for making you sin. Nobody makes you sin, you do it yourself.
Hebrews 4:16 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Be blessed.
What JP is talking about around 24:00 really reminds me of Arthur Koestlers notion of a holarchy, as laid out in The Ghost in the Machine. Normally when we think of a hierarchy we only pay attention to one direction. Koestler points out that everything in the hierarchy is simultaneously uniting lower units in the hierachy and is contained within higher units of the hierarchy. So there is always this Janus aspect, a facing in two directions, within the hierachy. In a way obvious, but easy to forget.
44:35
Maybe that would make me sound silly and weeb but, did just Jonathan explained the existence of waifu culture?
yeah, he did
It's more akin to the pagan, Greco-Roman veneration of Aphrodite/Venus. Aphrodite Pandemos rather than Aphrodite Urania.
Biblically speaking the soul is the combination of body and spirit. Gen. 2: 7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
This very scripture means man himself is the soul. If not, the scripture would have read, “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and put a soul inside the man.”
only just 'happened' (or perhaps not), on this channel, but interesting so far. my thoughts about spirituality, christian spirituality, are much like some of what you speak... I describe my own experience(s), like an 'Implosion' , in other words, one has to enter in to the calmer deeper internalisation of thought & reflection - Recede actually into that place of sanctuary where the Holy Spirit sits, and once you have been sucked or drawn in, within, then at some point BOOM you will experience the Implosion which blasts out or pours forth, and OPENS up the endlessness of ETERNITY and clarity... GOD's Eternity that is. ... the Mystical Understanding and Body of CHRIST, what the monastics might have experienced in disciplined Contemplative Prayer... I will turn in. thank you.
2nd time I've heard Jordan Peterson. Very interesting. I'll have to take a listen. Thanks for sharing your testimony
Amazing, the guy went through exactly what I was going through haha.
About 24:00 discussing how the portrayal of the soul as Feminine is contextual, I believe what is being described is a form of fractal.
Have you done a discussion on gnostism yet if you have; have you talked about kaballah in detail and the symbolism in that
Negative theology > gnosticism
@@jeupater1429 That statement is opaque.
Kaballah, total waste of time. Gnosticism, mostly a waste of time.
@@watermelonlalala im interested to know why those are starting to be popular topics and how the whole new age movements kinda is a big mesh of Buddhism and gnostism and other esoteric things like it I dont know if im using the word right but do you see it similarly
@@ferpineda5022 Starting to be? The boomers were raised on Madame Blavatsky and Aleister Crowley and the Golden Dawn and that stuff was old then. The new age movement was almost all Jews and elite Harvard types peddling snake oil to Christian kids, nothing more. Richard Smoley - has a some Theosophical lectures here on youtube. He isn't that great a speaker, unfortunately. But he is a big kahuna in that kind of stuff.
Yes, there is a difference. It helps to know that soul is flesh and spirit is not. Spirit is connected to the Source. The soul is connected to the body as a vessel. What u do with soul impacts the body. Sin affects it all. Mind, will, and emotions are soul. The Spirit breathed spirit (breath) into man. We are spirit beings having a human body experience .
Maybe you could unpack the symbolism behind this: "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...?"
PhDs
Scholastics and academics
Some of the dumbest dullest people on the face of this earth
@Johnathan, have you discerned the symbolism & dance of Cern?
Nous, soul, body, as well as the moral nature of the interrelationship you describe, is identical to Robert Pirsig's Metaphysics of Quality as outlined in his novel 'Lila'. He calls these three distinct 'patterns of value', intellectual, social, biological, with the addition of inorganic, again, a further layer that acts as a 'vessel' for the 'liberated' biological level. He would also agree that each type of value has two aspects, 'dynamic' and 'static'.
@David Chorak Although, in an interview, he denied knowing this when naming the character/book, I agree with you, It fits too well.
I'll have to read it soon.. I've only listened to Robert Breedlove's series on the book "Lila."
What is a resource you would reccomend to understand what a Nous is? I believe this interview is the first I'm hearing of it.
@@drewsimon9652 Nous is intellectual patterns of value, and their less distinct mysterious source. It lives (all austere and silent) just above words and symbols and so forth. Where it comes from and how it relates to the world is where all the contention is. Personally, I find most Christian/Platonic metaphysics confusing compared to Pirsig.
How does the necessity of the veil (which you discuss at around the 40:00 mark) and mystery sit with the idea of us seeing with unveiled faces that we read about in 2 Corinthians 3:18?
When one's heart is turned to the Lord, the veil is removed. Seems pretty clear.
Jonathan Pageau Indeed, 2 Cor 3 does seem clear. I think that was the commenter's point. A useful analogy may be a cliff whose top is shrouded by cloud a thousand feet up. What's at the top? We can't see it for the cloud. But when the cloud is blown away, the top comes into view Right? No more mystery?
With the cloud gone, an elemental mystery has turned into a divine one: we now see... we see the cliff is infinite in height.
Who needs a cloud for mystery? ("a childish toy")
Analogy courtesy of Protestant Jonathan Edwards. I find myself defending Protestants when I hear over-simplified descriptions of them such as those in this and other of your videos. Certain of Christianity's great works on fractal symbology have come from Protestants: they're not all into worship bands and flippant discourse - not even mainly.
How about a video like, 'things we can learn from the Protestant tradition(s)' ? I bet that'd be refreshing for you and challenging to your subscribers.
btw, yes, all analogies (an inherent limitation of the finite) break down at some point. That's actually the real point of that analogy - only, where it breaks down is not marked by the cloud, but where our finite eyesight becomes cloudy. The analogy's breakdown, therefore unfolds it into another useful and more direct one; one which experientially informs the mind that the cliff is infinite. Fractals.
Oz does, but an infinite Wizard needs no curtains.
(note that word 'needs' well)
Great discussion. Thanks Jonathan
The veil ripping gave us access to the throne of God, yet we see through a glass darkly. Protection from angels for women is hard to accept in as much that there are few men, husbands etc who are spiritually minded to cover.
Jillian Webb-Sear "...through a glass darkly." That's some fine Lancelot Andrewes there. =] what translation do you read?
@@AnHebrewChild king James
Just adding some cultural context to the point about women and veils and also why Paul says "because of the angels" :1corith 11:10. ancient Greco-Roman medical texts speak about the hair of men and women as being integral to conception. If a women had long healthy hair, it was believed she would be fertile. It was believed the sperm of the man was absorbed and aided by the woman's long hair. But for men, the length of ones hair made you either potent if you had short hair or less potent if you had long hair. The reference to "because of the Angels" links up with Genesis 6:1-4. Paul understood what happened in Gen 6:-14, as did the Greeks with Zeus and the Titans, and the Babylonian Apkallu. All ancient near eastern cultures and by extension the Greco-Roman world as well as the Israelites had the stories of divine beings/Angels talking human women and producing offspring. 2nd temple Jewish writings, the writings that Jesus, the disciples and Paul would have read and known, as well as the early church fathers until Augustine(who really rewrote the narrative) speak in detail to this as polemic against Israel's pagan neighbor's. Paul's point was to warn women to remain modest so as not to see another incursion from the Watchers.
Your reading may have some truth to it, especially as many learned men through the ages have taken your view, so it is clearly not without merit. But it seems to me Paul's argument is more about orderliness, hierarchy, and glory rather than modesty. Verse 10 is weird because the conclusion sort of has two arguments pointing to it, the first being from verse 9 (creation order/design) and the second "because of the angels":
9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have authority on her head, because of the angels.
It would be normal to take the reference to angels as fitting in with the general theme of the passage. You could argue that not tempting the angels to sin would be in keeping with proper order, but that would be to apply a modesty motif which is only present as a corollary, and there is clearly nothing in the passage itself that would necessitate that view.
I think it is safer to take the reference to angels as not offending them in their attendance at divine worship by ladies' throwing off their veils and trespassing God's design in creation, revealing man's glory when only God's glory should be seen.
Pondering your view again, if you say that unveiled women at worship may tempt angels to lust, oughtn't it be a matter of considerable importance that veiling be strictly mandated?
It is two years later but for the one who will see this, there is no mystery to be hidden or veiled after Christ(Rev 3:8). In fact I see the veiled opened according to necessity but it is never fully closed.”behold I have opened a door before you that no man can shut…because you have a little strength and have kept my name”. The only way the veil is closed is by not keeping his name.
Secondly, Paul says the woman should cover her head because her hair is her glory. Therefore the covering after our betrothal to Christ cannot be similar to the old covenant where it faced a danger of profanity. The holy one became profane that we may be made holy. Therefore the betrothed of Christ is veiled as a mark of her groom’s authority over her.
Why isn’t there much discussion about the SPIRIT of humanity because this is the one who will live eternity with or separated from God. I want to learn how my spirit can better control my soul so that I can live for Christ, as in taking every thought captive SO THAT I can choose to live my utmost for His glory
Great discussion!
A shield covers one's weaknesses (protects sacred) and allows one to thrust their sword (express sacred)
First off before I asked my question I feel it's important to explain that I am in no way an academic LOL that would be my wife! LOL anyhow to make a very long story short I've been doing a lot of searching and researching and looking into things because I too have had a major paradigm shift in the last couple months with regard to my faith. My wife decided to get involved in our local Orthodox Christian Church and I went to a couple services with her and obviously it was completely different than anything I've ever been used to but I definitely know that there's something there that is for me and so slowly I'm trying to learn what it's all about. I say all of that to ask question about this site please.. somebody explain to me in a very simple way what this whole idea of symbolism really encompasses please? I've watched a couple different podcasts from this channel and I really enjoy the content but I kind of hear crickets in the background when we start talking about the idea of symbolism. :-)
Is it possible to link it here? Dogheaded men essay... Thank you
Great video! When you talked about skipping levels and you get a monster at 45:40 . That blew my mind. I cant Express how awesome it is you said that in a way I understood.
Brilliant interview and super insightful! Thank you!!! 🔥
I found this interesting as they poked at Protestants who avoid symbolism and embrace literalism. I believe God’s word is both symbolic and literal. And this video is a perfect example of brokenness. The Protestant relies solely on literal interpretation and falls short. These guys rely heavily on symbolism and fall short. They are both accurate and mankind falls short in their understanding of God because they view the other as blasphemous
Basically sums up my own sentiments.
Yes. I had the same thoughts as I listened.
I'm being I'm being torn apart like a sheep for slaughter pray for me that I come to true faith everything they're saying my so longs of my soul is so disordered and needs truth anybody reading this prayer I find a healthy church and healthy fellowship and Divine healing
Body's fire, soul is earth, minds water
Jonathan can you make a video about Protestants you seem to have more to say about them.
Yes, I'd like that, too. Protestants have been screwing everything up for 500 years, and this is coming from someone with a United Methodist background.
9:00 i am one of those people who could use a basic grounding in symbolism.
Hey! why aren't you a traditional catholic instead of orthodox? just curious.
Because the Roman Church is not the true Church
@@OrthoReadings True that, I am not into the Roman church, nor the Antiochian church or the Russian church or any other denomination, I am talking about the Traditional Catholic Church, the one that Jesus founded.
Irod Jetson There are no denominations in the Church that Christ founded, the antiochian and Russian orthodox churches are not denominations, just jurisdictions with their respective patriarchs, just like in the times of the Bible. St. James for Jerusalem, St. Peter for Antioch, St. Mark for Alexandria, etc. The beautiful thing about The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is that it had maintained its theological doctrines for 2,000 years, regardless of what language a jurisdiction speaks. St. Paul wrote epistles to different churches, which were all under the authority of their respective bishops. Isn’t it amazing that St. Peter founded the Church of Antioch, which is where Christians were first called Christians (Acts 11:26), and 2,000 years later we still have an antiochian orthodox bishop? There were jurisdictions in the Bible (epistles), calling them denominations would be a silly Protestant thing to say, considering they all had the same doctrine.
@@OrthoReadings Sounds very good, but not true at all, to say that it has kept 2000 years of doctrines is very silly and false, keeping the creed is one thing, but to say that it has remain the same from the beginning it's clearly a lie: the notion that the Divine Liturgy has been in place since the days of the apostles is misleading and grossly oversimplified. In fact, the oldest surviving liturgy in use by orthodoxy today is the “Liturgy of St. James,” which dates no earlier than the 4th century. Back in the early church even the use of images in churches were condemned you can read in the 394 letter from Saint Epiphanius to the bishop of Jerusalem, this concept even present in the the 36th Canon of the Synod of Elvira (c.305-306).
I could go on with many changes that orthodoxy had in the past, and how the different "jurisdictions" of orthodox churches have differ over time...
The keys to the kingdom were given by Jesus Christ himself to St. Peter, and even church fathers St. Irenaeus, St. Cyprian, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Dionysius of Corinth and many others recognized the hierarchy level of the church "at Rome", and recognized that St. Peter suffered martyrdom in Rome; he did go to Antioch but declared there the first bishop Evadius, and in Rome after him Saint Linus... If you get away from the Keys of heaven given by Christ, you are not following the "Traditional Catholic Church", and I don't call it "Roman" because the catholic church is not of human or earthly jurisdiction. and well. anyways my question was to Jonathan.
Irod Jetson How silly of you to cite Epiphanius’s opposition to images when the same argument would be applied to the church in Rome, even more so with its use of statues. That is a goofy Protestant attempt to refute the use of images, especially because the church does not decide it’s doctrine with the opinion of one man. Moreover, church fathers/saints are not infallible and err. The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, dogmatized the use of Holy icons in the 7th ecumenical council.
The Saints always acknowledged that Rome was doubly Apostolic and the first among equals but you are confusing that primacy with supremacy. The Pope was never an infallible bishop with universal jurisdiction over the entire church as you have been misled to believe. We know this from canon 6 of the 1st ecumenical council, which grants the same privileges to other jurisdictions. There is no magical charism of St. Peter. That is a Vatican I innovation. So now it becomes clear that you are projecting your insecurities of your false church on the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
The Roman Church is the innovator (I.e. celibate priests, filioque, Vatican 2 nonsense, liturgical abuse), so remove the log from your own eye. The Orthodox Church rejects the notion that theological doctrine evolves. Rather, we assert that doctrine is expounded on via revelation.
The Roman Church no longer has the keys. It is no longer the first among equals, it has lost its title due to apostasy, and if the pagan syncretism happening at the Amazon synod doesn’t prove that to you, then you are lying to yourself, and you will be held more accountable for denying the truth.
What’s his discord server
Isn’t up or down a dualistic type of thought? is there hierarchy with matters of the heart?
I am curious if you guys are familiar with Margaret Barker's research?
Its fruits of the Spirit, which manifest thru the spirit mind which is fed by the Word and is glorified by the soul.
wow guys! thanks for this discussion.
The second choice with the picture of his face in the lower right corner is the one to select.
This man the new PBS
The alignment is to be connected with the Source. If you have a relationship with the Holy Spirit and your worship is in order and your heart is cleansed, u can be the chosen vessel to be used to produce the fruits of the Spirit. We don't do anything, it's the Holy Spirit working thru us to accomplish and establish what is to glorify God not us.
anyone have suggestions for videos to watch to understand the "basics"? most of this video was gibberish to me lol still enjoyed it quite a bit though! thank you!
How does one access the discord?
thanks for talking about this in long-form conversation. it seems modern culture is intent on removing symbolism entirely from the collective consciousness and it's really dismantling what we used to hold sacred and what has been holding our society together for so long. When you were talking about how women need to be veiled/remain mysterious/protected from us/is the holy place for man, this just resonated with me on a primal level. Often we (men) fall in love with the idea of a woman, which includes that feminine mystery, and so that feeling goes away when you see her more and more for what she really is - a human - and not just the purely positive symbolic representation of the feminine. I wonder if this is why we're so drawn to novelty, or at the very least, the idea of renewal, not in the sense of rebirth, but to make something unknown and mysterious again (perhaps this is just the other side of the same coin?)
Jonathan seems to imply the king directly speaking to the populace is not necessary sometimes. Sometimes the tree/heirarchy/levels of quality are not there to hold up the world, but instead to provide a social rejuvenation. In those moments a 'ground-level' king among men style revolution is a great opportunity to bring new first principles to bear. The hitler story is a corruption of this cycle, usually when insufficiently valuable *new* first principles exist to commit to a revolution.
One last thought…I’m wondering if the “temple” that scripture warns is where the antichrist will “sit” and claims the be god…is actually the human body (through taking the mark) and is the newest effort of fallen angels hijacking humans. Scriptures also say in Daniel 2:43 “their seed will attempt to mix with human seeds but will not mix” just as iron and clay cannot mix/stick together.
I think many are missing this. I see it when I read end of days scriptures
Hey guys! This is good. Actually I am a Hungarian Orthodox
I would like to join the Discord server if it is available (because I also don't like Facebook). Does someone has the invitation link?
discord.gg/YX4D9yJ
@@looqo7632 sorry, can u send it again? I haven't recivied any notification
Thank you. I do not understand this completely but most I think?
My personal point of view is that there is spirit and there is body. Perhaps soul comprises the two as being the whole person. Spirit and body were originally supposed to compliment each other, but with original sin, they are now in a conflict that the Church refers to as concupiscence. Both Jews and Muslims have a term to express this 'fallen state.' May God bless and guide your studies gentlemen. 😇
They can't be separate things. It's your own mind that separates yourself