Other For Science Videos: Air hose size vs power loss: th-cam.com/video/KBQpaUBMmGw/w-d-xo.html Extension length vs power loss: th-cam.com/video/XYavlJY_5Ks/w-d-xo.html Impact Universals vs power loss & Durability testing: th-cam.com/video/f0xhgQiTGUY/w-d-xo.html Smaller Battery Power loss: th-cam.com/video/WD2Pe4MIuSA/w-d-xo.html Email TorqueRank@gmail.com with any past of future purchase from our channel store and get a google doc of our ranks lists that we're adding to all of the time. See how we rank them by points, power, or with this data rank them how you see fit!
nice test, though the answer was obvious to me, by doing screenprinting by hand, I started to have that classic inflamation on my elbows, not like a lot, I realized early enough, so what I did was attaching two thick metal plates to the ratchet-..?..donnou in english... for adding weight, so I wouldn´t have to push so hard, what a difference, I always do it so now. The test is as I expected, if instead of a paralel movement, is a spinning powered movement...yyyyup´h, and yes I think the fact that weight is very stiff as much closed to the source of spin, much more effective, if one is to make a cheaper casting of the socket, that can be the "short" way, in the case of your grandpa´s. When it comes about this powered spinning machines, the fact of the alignment makes a huge difference, on this tests of internet with drillers and stuff, often they say tha the user does not realy matter...hmmhh, in real daily life work, I see terrible things done to machines screws fasteners and users themselves, just by not trying it as straight as possible, relying most of the work to the strength of the motor. It is essential concentrating all the strengh and different forces involved as much possible aligned. Well similar to martial arts, categories by weight... good to see this concept of motion improved in such a way interesting channel, youtube is infinte ;)
I always wonder how they actually work, though. Any good explanation (video) somewhere? Or maybe TTC can get into such details should they make a video about it?!
@@blockbertus i always assumed they flex (twist) within their elastic range which limits the power. Then they spring back between impacts. Thicker ones are stiffer and transmit more torque. they wont work with a ratchet or breaker bar because they never get a chance to spring back so they'll eventually exceed their torque spec and then get damaged. You also need to use a gun with a certain power range for them to be accurate. The ones i have seem to do a decent job but i still don't trust them for some reason. I use them for stuff that isn't too critical though.
@@dafirnz torque sticks are great to not severely overtorque fasteners. It's an easy way to get relatively close. I like to use one stick under spec and hand torque after. Don't have to think about how many ugga duggas go into fastening and it's 1/8 to 1/4 turn before my torque wrench clicks for most wheels.
I was a machinist at a refinery, I took apart my 1/2” pneumatic impact then precision ground, polished and balanced the weights to each other. I wish I had a test rig like yours to try it on. Maybe it was all in my head but that impact was the most powerful one around that place. It’s was an IR, not sure how old it was.
Removing as much internal friction as possible from the polishing probably did do a lot of good. I used to build race bikes with a co-worker of mine on the weekends and just by taking all the tranny gears and getting a really clean polished surface it would keep down gearbox temps and depending on what you were doing, get you some noticeable power / efficiency bumps.
I used to work at Discount Tire, and we had relatively underpowered impact wrenches, so whenever a f250 or a larger truck came in and the regular sockets weren't cutting it the power sockets were able to get the lug off 9/10 times, so they definitely make a huge difference. But for an average user I wouldn't say the $100 price point is worth it for one singular socket.
but if i spend an extra $100 on a bigger impact instead will i get the same increase on EVERY fastener size instead of a single fastener size, and not be limited to huge clearace?
I thought the same. But I think the power sockets are meant for gaining power in a specific job that comes up often (and didn't exist when the shop was setup). So these are sold as individual sockets and if a set of them is needed then its worth it to upgrade the wrench.
Yeahh true, BUT you can make that weighted power socket yourself out of normal socket and a little bit of metal for maybe $5. Then it is MORE THAN worth it. :) So based od the results DIY weighted power socked DOES make sense.
Ok I’m gonna comment before watching the whole video just to see if my real world experience is held out 1. There is something imho to the spring rate that ir refers to as anyone whose run an impact for a living (30+ years as a heavy duty mechanic) will tell you. If you wrap your hand around the socket on a stubborn fastener soaking up the vibration you will increase the breakaway torque and get carpal tunnel. Also I’ve used the 19mm ingersoll crank bolt socket on the famously stubborn Honda crank bolt and it does work.
Great summary at the end, the comparison between the cost of a weighted socket and a new tool really shows the value in the socket. Much more economical way to get more beans 👍
If you only need one or two sizes…. I can see it for a shop that has multiple mechanics, multiple impact wrenches, but keeps 1-4 common sizes of the power socket to be used by any tech as needed. Might be cheaper to pick up a few select power sockets vs buying one higher torque impact wrench or tryin. To replace multiple impact wrenches.
Loved the dive into the patent in this one. Watch these for entertainment as I'm in a different work field, but I love researching patents to backwards engineer things and understand them. Cool to see you guys put the work in.
Lisle doesn't make a weighted socket that would fit this rig (anymore). We need 15/16" or 24mm, if we made the drive size and therefore thread size any smaller we would be stretching threads with these impacts, which means data becomes useless. This is because we're tightening the bolt more and more with the test, not loosening something stuck like you likely are. If you have a 15/16" or 24mm weighted socket, or want to make one and send it to use let us know!
They needed a 1/2 drive socket to compare apples to apples. Welding a on a socket with an extensions would probably create to many variables to yield any concrete evidence.
@@dougehouser5672 I weld on stuff all the time. Put my I initials on my spud wrench and socket. I even have a spud with a 1-1/4" socket welded onto it so it doesnt fall. The point of welding is to add weight. Just run beads or torch out a circle in a piece of chinking We also cut the sockets we dont use in half and weld em together so its a 1/2" on both ends. We then impact out cat tails. Sssoooooo much better than the old way
Guys thank you for putting together some incredibly informative videos. The time and effort you put into it really shows and your fans are very grateful. I'll be sure to buy a shirt soon so I can support your efforts. Keep crushing guys!
I would imagine it does as the tool itself can move from the impacts instead of the impacts transferring its energy into the fastener. That's lost energy. Also, you can make some semi-auto handguns malfunction by limp wristing them. The entire gun moves backwards which robs the energy transfer needed to cycle the slide.
I would say it definitely affects torque. It's likely just like letting a wheel spin while torquing on lugnuts, just from the other side. That energy that goes into your wrist is not going into the fastener.
I learned a long time ago that if you hold the socket in the opposite direction that the impact is hammering, it really helps the way the gun hammers. Kinda like a weighted socket but much cheaper. Keep up the good work.
@@wingerrrrrrrrr It's just cuz shooting sideways make you look cool, so you do cool stuff easier... obviously... not because the weight of the tool is working in your favor... All Swag
*Makes me wonder. . . Could an "adapter" be made, that was just a large heavy disc shape. Save hundreds of dollars, and make any socket more useful when the need arises.
@@garyrobinson3735 Well depends if you weren’t established in the weight socket market then you can undercut the competition with a far better alternative and scoop up all the sales.
Interesting video, I definitely thought of the Power Socket last time I watched the socket video. Thanks for doing it. You should slap it on a small wrench and see if it can do a semi lug nut that was impossible without it ( ie compact impact + IR power socket vs 500 ft lb nut)
Thanks for providing the time stamps/chapters. It makes your videos look more professional. It also means that I’ll watch more of your video that I’m not really interested in because you save me time by giving me the time stamp/chapter outline of what you’re doing.
It's all about rebound harmonic looks like,different impact speeds can be heard during tests,like different hardness on material The "flywheel" socket mass and inertia is tuned for lower frequencies obtainable with air impact. It reduces rebound,and is less efficient higher in frequencies. The thin wall chromed deep socket is harder material and has more mass ,but very close to the axis of rotation,so a small inertia,wich reduces parasitic rebound. You should try to eliminate the play in the square with shims,you would reduce or eliminate rebound,and find out different results.
Spring losses makes sense, but I think the most important factor in minimizing spring losses would actually be the closeness of the fit between the drive and the socket and the torsional rigidity of the tooling. The tighter the fit, the less rebound between drive and driven - as a thought experiment, you could imagine the ideal would be welding the socket onto the drive, resulting in near zero rebound between the drive and the socket (given that the welds don’t fail). I’d be interested to see an analysis of how drive fitment effects torque efficiency. As an addendum, I was racking my brain to figure out why the IR tooling would have such exceptional results when your comment about the flywheel principal not being very applicable due to the fact that the constant is angular acceleration and not angular velocity is spot on imop, and I think it might be thanks to the added rigidity rather than the added mass. The spring in spring losses is the tooling itself, and the wasted energy is stored with the socket acting as a torsion spring. More (or harder) material on the diameter of the tooling would resist twisting much better compared to conventional sockets and lead to a reduction in torsion spring losses.
About 10 vids in, and I really like the graphs and spread sheets accommodating the tests. I think for me, that really separates this channel from other channels. And the in depth breakdowns, like taking apart universals. Also I'm digging the experimental stuff. Very cool. That m60cc was awesome. Tyvm for your content.
Before I bought a 3/4 air impact for $90 from HF, I used a 1/2F/3/4M adapter and a 19mm deep well s/o 3/4-dr impact socket. It always worked for Honda crank bolts when an ordinary 1/2dr 19mm s/o deep impact socket did not. Source: Honda dealer tech using a 1/2 earthquake and IR2135 back then. Nowadays I have the PT850 and IRC9000 and rarely need the 3/4 HF gun. Would love to see the adaptor/3/4 socket combo compared to the IR power socket
Everytime we had a lug nut not come off when I worked at Discount Tire, we threw one of these sockets on and sure enough almost every time it took it right off.
Yea weighted sockets are always used once on a flywheel bolt and then they are forever in the toolbox. Seen this playout so many times myself included.
@@TorqueTestChannel One thing that would be nice to have in that video would be to include whip hoses (e.g. the one Tekton makes). Whip hoses are what people are "supposed" to use instead of swivel fittings, and I'm curious if they are actually better than swivel fittings in real world testing
First off, love the channel and the work you guys are doing. Secondly, the term 'beans' should be standardized in the industry lol. Imma start using it in my garage. Last, yall show the masses of each socket but not the moment of inertia (MOI) which is what is really providing the extra torque. I know MOI is not a well understood topic, and that it is hard to calculate for every socket, but I just wanted to point that out. Two sockets can have the same mass and different MOIs, it all depends on how far away the mass is from the axis of rotation; like the IR socket having that mass ring located far away from the axis of rotation. I really like how you showed the IR patent. This shows you put a lot of work in to this video, like you do with all of them. Thanks and keep up the great work!
This channel is like Project Farm but more focused. Keep up the great work! You are helping every consumer of these products! The internet thanks you. 👍
I work at a tire shop, and I can vouch that those power sockets do work. I could have a stuck lug and sit there with the air impact for well over 15 seconds, and still get nothing. We used to only have one option in that case. Go grab a breaker bar, and potentially hurt yourself, which happened on occasion. But then we got a full set of those power sockets, which included 17mm, 19mm, 21mm, 7/8", and 15/16". They will break that stuck lug loose in under a second. The only downside to them which was briefly mentioned, is that you have to have the room to use them. For example, the 17mm rarely ever gets used, because most Mercedes/BMW wheels have the lug bolts recessed into the wheel, and the power socket is way too thick.
Thank you so much for this!!! i've been waiting for this kind of testing and i'm super happy you guys finally did it. Who in the world would dislike videos from TTC?????
Would love to see a BBBCS "Best Best Best Case Scenario" episode. Use a gun with the larger air inlet, raise the pressure above the BCS like in that IR episode, use the power socket.
I would never have guessed this outcome... I was thinking that the lighter sockets would fare better, because the gun has to accelerate the mass of the socket before it can transfer the energy into the fastener..... but now as I'm thinking about it, look at the "Newton's Cradle"... perhaps the weighted sockets prevent/absorb the rebound (reflected energy) so that the socket is more "in position" to transfer the next hammer blow... Thank you so much guys for this!!! Learn something new every day!!!!
The problem with these sizes when tightening like we can measure is the threads for that drive size (16mm on a Honda) would mangle and not give any useful data.
@@TorqueTestChannel I would like to see the 19mm comparison also. How about welding a 19mm nut on the end of the regular large screw? With the slight modification you could test 19mm sockets and not worry about threads distorting.
That seems like the solution to excessive power in the test rig. Limited power in, limited power out, and any differences could be validated. The only thing is that impact rate timing probably will be a variable that affects how well the power socket works, like the timing of pushing a kid on a swing as opposed to a burly man.
It’s almost like putting extra mass in your impact gun hammer mechanism. Interesting and intriguing. I’ll need a bigger rollaway if I’m going to buy any more sockets!!
I have first hand experience with the Lisle style sockets and can say they definitely work. I bought an old Civic with a broken timing belt, and used every tool that I had in my box or could borrow to try unsuccessfully to remove the 17mm crank pulley bolt. I even tried using a 3/4” air impact gun (unfortunately without having a 3/4” drive 17mm socket) and all it did was laugh at my reducer. I was highly dubious of these sockets, but bought a set as a final desperate attempt. The bolt came out within 5 seconds when using the super thicc walled socket. They definitely made me a believer. I’ve used the 17mm and 19mm now multiple times, as well as loaned them out a few times, and they always get the job done. I’ve even been able to use my weak Craftsman electric impact to remove the crank bolts when my IR air impact with a regular socket can’t.
My son the mechanic had much the same experience. Two men working for an hour with breaker bar on my 2003 crv. Years later when a Friends civic using a weighted socket and bolt zips right out.
Torque Test Channel isn’t the hero we ever asked for because we didn’t know how much we needed them. #TTCdoesitagain #imaheadout #bangdorangtorquetestchannel
Subbed. This is EXCELLENT content and video quality is great! Thank you for presenting this, makes me look differently at my setup, which has been trial and error. One thing I noticed after upgrading to a 3/4 IR impact, hoses and fittings matter! I it would be so interesting with your test rig to see how your supply affects torque performance. I had to re-plumb my supply from the tank, all 1/2 inch pipes, hoses, regulator, and fittings plus I put a higher pressure switch (155-175psi) and have the reg at 120. it hits so much harder now. Having a gauge right before the tool was the eye opener, the pressure drop in your plumbing needs to be talked about!
Unbelievable that the mass of a socket can have such a huge effect on torque delivered to the fastener. I am really surprised!!! As always excellent video!
I worked in a shop that serviced only Hondas and Acuras. We had a 3/4” impact and a 1/2” hose used exclusively for harmonic balancer bolt removal. Once the Lisle socket came out, everyone bought one, and that 3/4” gun was never touched again.
In a garage we tried everything on a crank bolt to change the water pump nothing would move, we got a heavy socket (like mentioned for Honda) even if nobody believed it would do anything we were out of options and within 2 seconds it was loose even if it didn’t move after atleast 10mins of impacting before. I haven’t heard anything about it since so im happy to see it here
Really fascinating result! In a linear system, the total kinetic energy increases linearly with mass if velocity is constant (KE=0.5mv²). Increasing velocity is more efficient however which is why we've seen a trend in reducing bullet weights in the military in favor of faster bullets. The equation does not exactly apply to your test since your test involves a rotating element but the principle is the same: with velocity constant, increasing mass should increase total kinetic energy (beans). Which it clearly did. But considering that the "super socket" costs $100, that implies a set of ten "super sockets" would cost... $1000!!! The cost for even ONE "super socket" makes you ask yourself: why not loosen all the lug nuts with a normal, $5 socket and a $25 cheater bar, then follow behind that with the normal socket on a normal impact gun to quickly remove all the lug nuts? I mean unless you're working in the pit stop of a Formula One race then the "super socket" seems like an overpriced luxury.
I have "weighted" sockets which I use for removing honda and toyota crankshaft bolts. Makes all the difference in the world. Regular impact sockets many times won't remove the crankshaft bolt, but the heavier sockets work (f=ma).
I think using 6 point vs 12 point makes a difference. Might skew some of these numbers a tad. Also might be another good video. Same socket brand, 6 vs 12 in standard and deep.
so how about i just take a cheep impact set from harbor freight and weld some weight on the back end of it? i bet i could wip out a full set in a few hours for the price of one ingersoll rand power socket.
Great test. Thanks for digging into the math as well - very informative. Nowadays, impact wrenches are so good, comparisons are almost moot. My Matco 2769 is such a beast it out muscles my older Snap-On 3/4" gun. Keep up the great videos!
if you ever worked at a shop you know what a difference the IR flywheel socket especially the 19 mm on Honda crank bolts.. Its a life saver, we swear by them
I'm not surprised the 1970's chrome craftsman didn't break. That was a different era for American made quality tools. My first 'set' of tools purchased in 1973 or 74. was a Craftsman tool box full of 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 inch chrome mostly 12 point sockets, deep and shallow. I still have most of them and put a lot of abuse to them with a 25+ year career in the automotive - truck filed (new car dealers). I only broke a couple.
BPM is a critical variable because each of these tools and drive systems have some kind of natural frequency. They will spring back in some amount of time. If you can apply another blow before the spring back has fully returned, then the energy will "pile up" in the driven object. These heavy sockets work by lowering that torsional frequency, making the spring back take significantly more time. Time enough that another blow can be applied before it is fully returned. This time dynamic is also why some impacts simply don't work with torque sticks. Torque sticks also lower the torsional frequency, but they do it not by being heavier, they do it just by reduced stiffness. So a higher BPM impact will apply a blow before the torque stick has unwound from its deflection, thus allowing torque to pile up and far exceed the rating of the torque stick. It would be really great if torque stick makers would put a max BPM rating on their products so that people would use them properly. Finally, this dynamic is why the long extensions lose so much power. The long extensions are less stiff torsionally, and they tend to act a bit like torque sticks. If you repeated the long extension testing with a very high BPM tool and a very low BPM tool, you'd find the higher BPM tool can run a longer extension before the torque level falls off a lot.
Interesting video but now I want to see you sleeve a normal socket with some pipe and see what kind of results you get, jbweld or a similar compound would probably be the best way to attach it without potentially impairing the strength of the socket like welding could
I'd like to see high speed photomicrography video of the IR socket in action, showing the outer ring moving like a torsion spring in relation to the central core. That's why the cutouts rather than filling it all in.
@@wingerrrrrrrrr No, the cutouts are there to provide the best distortion reduction to weight increase, ratio. Torsion spring action is exactly what you want to avoid because it reduces impact force in order to store energy and gradually dissipate, just as it does in any other application.
Great video I have always theorised this but it was great to see that weighted IR socket hit it out if the park. Great job guys. I don't know why I've watched so many of your ugga-dugga videos!
I think the key is to match the mass on both sides of the impact, so that all the momentum is transferred. It has nothing to do with spring rate, just the math of where the energy ends up in a collision. So you want the bolt, socket, anvil, and hammer to each have the same mass and moment of inertia.
I was really surprised by the stubby socket losing out. It makes sense with it being the lightest but I'll usually grab that if the longer socket is too wobbly like you showed, and the stubby would usually do the trick, interesting
A weighted adapter would seem to make more sense than weighting each individual socket. Would also give options depending on adapter length for keeping the extra diameter further back from the fastener, potentially allowing more room than the hoola-hoop socket.
I thought the power socket was a scam, good to know it actually does what it says. Do you think you could attach a dumbbell weight to a socket? Maybe machine the ID in a lathe for an interference fit with the socket, then press it on?
@@ShaunHensley A lot of weights are cast iron, cast iron is hard to weld and you need special materials. Even if the weights are not cast iron, you would still have an issue trying to weld dissimilar metals. Even if you did manage to weld them together, the socket would be weakened from the heat, making it a potential explosion hazard.
I’ve never seen welded sockets fail from welding modification unless someone burned through the sidewalk, or applied 5,000 gorillas of force (which would have still destroyed the unwelded socket). 1. Don’t weld on the fastener end face 2. Don’t over weld and turn the whole damn socket into a cherry 3. Preferably don’t weld on thin wall sockets. 4. Don’t quench the socket unless you are tracking temps. You could easily over-harden it turning it brittle. Just let it air cool. 5. Whether a socket is hardened or not doesn’t really matter if you follow the above.
I noticed alot of loss in the recoil or violent rattling while bolting up and impacting structural bolts (and disassembly) so to mitigate that i put my hand on the socket and turn it along as i impact. Effectively cutting out the space that the socket is used as an anvil to torque bolt. It seems to work wonders tightening and loostening for me in the feild and gives corded impacts that extra umph needed in a pinch and air the extra umph needed when you really need it 🤣 wouldnt recomend it all the time if you dont want arthritis when your old. But works for me. either way loved the video and just thought id share my experience as to why that flywheel socket thing makes sense as to why it would work in mt head
Spring rates can be changed in many ways such as socket wall thickness, socket length, and even local stiffnesses within the socket such as around the anvil, or around where it interfaces with the nut will affect the total spring rate of the socket.. I do believe mass can also play a role. I would say to truely segregate spring rate of the sockets from pure mass would be to test a socket and then attach a mass such as a collar to the socket and retest. Will have to be careful and attach it to an area that already has significant stiffness like around the anvil connection. Also want to limit stiffness increases to the socket to an attachment method like epoxy such as JB Weld might be more suitable instead of pressing on a collar or welding on a collar.
I'm a Honda tech and I do about 20-60 timing belts per year. My snap on dealer came in with a 19mm Lisle weighted socket and wagered a bet. He said I the socket could get a crank pulley bolt off that I had to buy it. Naturally I was skeptical since I usually have to heat the bolts. It pulled the bolt out like it was undoing a lug nut, it was almost magic. Needless to say that was one bet I was happy to lose.
I have no idea if you can measure it but I knew a tech who would rev the impact and socket to full rpm unloaded then stab the bolt for just a little bit extra break away.
Thick wall sockets are amazing, the Honda crank bolt I could not get loose even with a 3 foot breaker bat and the proper holding tool was spun off easy borrowing the thick socket. I bought my own after using it.
Awesome! Thanks for the science, I would not have anticipated that result. In your newer video about adding adapters, there were losses despite the gain in inertial mass, so it does look like there are a lot of interesting physics going on here. I should have been an ME, but I chose EE/CE, so all this stuff is foreign, but fascinating. Thanks again!!
You just get better and better. Love the channel. Keep up the good work Amigo. I've got a few random things I could send ya if you wanted to test em or compare. I'll pay for shipping
Wonder if you could make a generic weight to clamp on to regular sockets just so you didn't have to buy them all again. Maybe you could test a homemade one with varying weights to see if there is more power to be gained?
I have gotten extra torque out of my impact by turning the socket by hand while it's hammering. I assume it's because I'm effectively damping the springyness of the socket. Would be very interested to see you involve this in one of your tests as a cheap alternative to that power socket.
If you're going to take off a honda harmonic balancer/crank bolt with a 1/2 impact don't even bother trying without the lisle socket. Maybe it can be done with a standard 3/4" drive socket but I don't have one of those to verify. Good luck to trying hand tools as well; I broke 2 ratchets and a breaker bar before I got power tools and even then struggled until I found someone in the forums saying you need the lilse socket.
how would the results change using an extension or as someone mentioned what about a very heavy diy modified extension having an effect? great video btw and learned a lot!!
I have a set of those deep 6 point protective sockets and they work well for around $6 each. More than worth buying even if you have other sockets that fit, because they don't beat up the lug nuts or scratch the wheel. BUT! You have to be careful which brand you purchase. Some are cast knockoffs and will shatter according to some reviews.
I worked in a Costco tire center and we had those ir sockets for those lug nuts that really didn’t want to come off and I don’t think we ran into any lug nuts that they wouldn’t take off
@@svn5994 Right, they list the same torque on the box, but do they actually have the same torque? This video clearly shows that more mass makes more power on the same tool
I would love to see how well would an adapter which only consists of the flywheel do? I mean it would be great if you could buy only one and use your entire set with it even if it would do half the improvements of the one-piece setup...
That would be the worst thing possible to do because it's not rotational mass that helps (rather that alone hurts, if all else where equal), rather reducing deformation and by adding an adapter in series, you'd suffer the same types of losses already demonstrated with other adapters/extensions. You want the shortest distance from anvil to fastener but with enough metal to suffer least deformation, and enough that you can use a more brittle metal without it cracking. Heavier socket is just a means towards less deformation. Think of it like this: Suppose you use a hammer to drive a nail. Now put a rubber cap over the hammer head. Will it drive in the nail as well? Of course not, even though you have more mass and less deflection, because there is greater deformation and peak impact loss.
I could not take the crank pulley bolt on my Honda FOR THE LIFE OF ME and the big lisle boy he shows on Amazon is exactly what I bought, $30. Worked like a charm.
What about a test to see if there's any noticeable difference when using a deepwell socket alone vs grabbing the deepwell socket while it's impacting and twisting it in the same direction. I feel like there won't be that much of a difference in torque, but maybe in time taken to get to a certain torque level. Or maybe you just end up with a violent hand massage while you're working.
This is on the book. I remember years ago I was reading Lincoln tech textbook it stated deep impact socket produces more torque than shallow. I tested it out on a Honda crank bolt, it’s true.
I bought a 19 mm weighted socket designed to remove Honda crankshaft bolts. Anyone who has tried to remove them by hand even with special dedicated wrenches knows how hard it is to do. The socket removes the bolts with one pull of the trigger of my air gun. One of the best tool inventions ever. I use it for many applications where there is a stubborn 19 mm bolt.
How about clutch types and output vs torque sticks. I've heard they only work with single or twin hammer guns and do not work with pin clutch or electric impacts. I suspect they simply are designed for weaker guns than 800ftlbs monsters we have now a days, but it would be cool to see the torsion bar effect in action and how they do or do not diminish torque, how consistent they are, and if cheap vs expensive matters.
Do the impact driver specific drives like the Milwaukee "Shockwave" ones increase torque? Or do they break less? Break more? Or are they just going for style points?
Awesome Test! You guys should torque test torque limiting sticks for air and battery impacts; they seem wildly inaccurate particularly with the battery impacts I’ve used
I'm a bit fuzzy on the physics behind this. A flywheel works by resisting changes in rotational speed. It soaks up engine power as you're accelerating, and then releases it when you aren't. But that shifting of energy from one side of the equation to the other requires a fair amount of rpms to have any real effect. As you can see on the dyno the impact wrench doesn't really spin the socket much at all, so the flywheel effect would be basically nothing. And if you're working on a really stuck bolt it's not rotating at all. So the only other consideration is increased mass. If you think of an impact wrench like using a hammer on a standard wrench to bust loose a stubborn bolt, and when the normal hammer doesn't work you get your mini-sledge out and it does, then you can see the benefit of increased mass. But we're not increasing the mass of the "hammer" in this case, as that's all happening inside the impact wrench. We're effectively adding mass to the thing we're hitting with the hammer, which seems like it wouldn't do too much. IR's claim is that this is reducing a spring effect inherent to the impact wrench design. Going back to the hammer + wrench analogy if you pre-load the wrench by twisting it in the direction you want it to go before hitting it with the hammer you'll have better luck. And if you get a nice solid hit that doesn't bounce off that tends to work better too. So I *think* that's what's happening here. A heavier, stronger socket will tend to absorb the blows without chattering/bouncing as much, which results in more torque being actually delivered where you want it. Another example would be trying to hammer a nail into a piece of wood trim. If the wood is hanging off the edge of your table it's not going to happen, every time you hit the nail the wood flexes and the nail doesn't go through. But lay it on a solid base and the nail goes right in. This could also explain the difference in rated torque output of these tools and the actual measurements seen on this channel. The ratings are just mathematical projections based on the internal design of the tool, but do not take into account any losses from a less than perfect connection between the tool and the thing you're using it on. The less flex, or springiness, you get from the socket the closer to the theoretical max torque the tool can produce. Presumably then some ridiculously massive, 20 pound socket, would get reasonably close to the rated torque output.
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Air hose size vs power loss: th-cam.com/video/KBQpaUBMmGw/w-d-xo.html
Extension length vs power loss: th-cam.com/video/XYavlJY_5Ks/w-d-xo.html
Impact Universals vs power loss & Durability testing: th-cam.com/video/f0xhgQiTGUY/w-d-xo.html
Smaller Battery Power loss: th-cam.com/video/WD2Pe4MIuSA/w-d-xo.html
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Thank You !
THANK YOU
nice test, though the answer was obvious to me, by doing screenprinting by hand, I started to have that classic inflamation on my elbows, not like a lot, I realized early enough, so what I did was attaching two thick metal plates to the ratchet-..?..donnou in english... for adding weight, so I wouldn´t have to push so hard, what a difference, I always do it so now. The test is as I expected, if instead of a paralel movement, is a spinning powered movement...yyyyup´h, and yes I think the fact that weight is very stiff as much closed to the source of spin, much more effective, if one is to make a cheaper casting of the socket, that can be the "short" way, in the case of your grandpa´s. When it comes about this powered spinning machines, the fact of the alignment makes a huge difference, on this tests of internet with drillers and stuff, often they say tha the user does not realy matter...hmmhh, in real daily life work, I see terrible things done to machines screws fasteners and users themselves, just by not trying it as straight as possible, relying most of the work to the strength of the motor. It is essential concentrating all the strengh and different forces involved as much possible aligned. Well similar to martial arts, categories by weight...
good to see this concept of motion improved in such a way
interesting channel, youtube is infinte ;)
you guys should weld a big ol' homemade flywheel onto a socket and see what happens. Love this channel, thanks!
This and a "flywheel extension adapter widget".
I bet at a certain point is going to be diminishing returns
The 2" impact wrench to turn it would cost thousands...lol..and who's holding it?... yikes...😬
Impacts don't turn flywheels very well due to the hammering effect. Have tried with poor results in the past. Not enough rpms.
@@fredygump5578 iirc impact sockets aren't hardened to prevent shattering when you know beat on
I really want to see you test torque limiting sticks to see how close they get to their rating.
Yes on both cordless and air!
I always wonder how they actually work, though. Any good explanation (video) somewhere? Or maybe TTC can get into such details should they make a video about it?!
@@blockbertus i always assumed they flex (twist) within their elastic range which limits the power. Then they spring back between impacts. Thicker ones are stiffer and transmit more torque. they wont work with a ratchet or breaker bar because they never get a chance to spring back so they'll eventually exceed their torque spec and then get damaged. You also need to use a gun with a certain power range for them to be accurate. The ones i have seem to do a decent job but i still don't trust them for some reason. I use them for stuff that isn't too critical though.
@@blockbertus Think of them as a 'best guess'. To get them any kind of accurate you need to calibrate the stick to the gun, to the air system.
@@dafirnz torque sticks are great to not severely overtorque fasteners. It's an easy way to get relatively close. I like to use one stick under spec and hand torque after. Don't have to think about how many ugga duggas go into fastening and it's 1/8 to 1/4 turn before my torque wrench clicks for most wheels.
Change measurements from beans to
1 ugah dugahs= 1.635 ft-lbs and 2.331 NM tq simultaneously
That math checks out
I was a machinist at a refinery, I took apart my 1/2” pneumatic impact then precision ground, polished and balanced the weights to each other. I wish I had a test rig like yours to try it on. Maybe it was all in my head but that impact was the most powerful one around that place. It’s was an IR, not sure how old it was.
Removing as much internal friction as possible from the polishing probably did do a lot of good.
I used to build race bikes with a co-worker of mine on the weekends and just by taking all the tranny gears and getting a really clean polished surface it would keep down gearbox temps and depending on what you were doing, get you some noticeable power / efficiency bumps.
Awesome
@@ObservationofLimits good to know. I’ll keep that in mind for future projects.
I used to work at Discount Tire, and we had relatively underpowered impact wrenches, so whenever a f250 or a larger truck came in and the regular sockets weren't cutting it the power sockets were able to get the lug off 9/10 times, so they definitely make a huge difference. But for an average user I wouldn't say the $100 price point is worth it for one singular socket.
It's crazy how much difference a shorter and/or heavier socket can make
I worked at discount too!!! If we couldn’t get the normal sockets to work we’d use the larger power sockets!
For $100 couldn't you just buy a better impact? There are air impacts that can easily take those off at $150-$200
@@greod1006 if they have them bigger impacts we'd never get our wheels off we've again
@@andys31337 Yes you would. With an impact!
I totally dig the down to earth 'ness of this channel
a dude doing the opposite of busting nuts
@@dancearoundtheworld5360 I couldn’t agree enough
but if i spend an extra $100 on a bigger impact instead will i get the same increase on EVERY fastener size instead of a single fastener size, and not be limited to huge clearace?
I thought the same. But I think the power sockets are meant for gaining power in a specific job that comes up often (and didn't exist when the shop was setup). So these are sold as individual sockets and if a set of them is needed then its worth it to upgrade the wrench.
Yeahh true, BUT you can make that weighted power socket yourself out of normal socket and a little bit of metal for maybe $5. Then it is MORE THAN worth it. :) So based od the results DIY weighted power socked DOES make sense.
Considering Lbf stands for "Lima bean force" it makes sense to use beans as a measurement.
Ok I’m gonna comment before watching the whole video just to see if my real world experience is held out 1. There is something imho to the spring rate that ir refers to as anyone whose run an impact for a living (30+ years as a heavy duty mechanic) will tell you. If you wrap your hand around the socket on a stubborn fastener soaking up the vibration you will increase the breakaway torque and get carpal tunnel. Also I’ve used the 19mm ingersoll crank bolt socket on the famously stubborn Honda crank bolt and it does work.
100% works by preloading the socket in the direction you're going.
I was going to post the same thing, but checked first to see if it was already said. YES!
"are these the motherboards?"
"This is beans"
Love the vlog creations reference
is that the full pumps?
@@brandon2076 i fricken lost it when he started referencing the other bean videos in the car one😂😂
@@brandon2076 flooly pumps, dude it's food
@@Mcgweeezy “YOU HAVE FOOD IN YOUR GAS TANK”
..... flool plump?
9:22, thank you. Would not be able to sleep tonight without knowing if BEANS are SAE or Metric
Great summary at the end, the comparison between the cost of a weighted socket and a new tool really shows the value in the socket. Much more economical way to get more beans 👍
If you only need one or two sizes….
I can see it for a shop that has multiple mechanics, multiple impact wrenches, but keeps 1-4 common sizes of the power socket to be used by any tech as needed. Might be cheaper to pick up a few select power sockets vs buying one higher torque impact wrench or tryin. To replace multiple impact wrenches.
Loved the dive into the patent in this one. Watch these for entertainment as I'm in a different work field, but I love researching patents to backwards engineer things and understand them. Cool to see you guys put the work in.
Lisle doesn't make a weighted socket that would fit this rig (anymore). We need 15/16" or 24mm, if we made the drive size and therefore thread size any smaller we would be stretching threads with these impacts, which means data becomes useless. This is because we're tightening the bolt more and more with the test, not loosening something stuck like you likely are. If you have a 15/16" or 24mm weighted socket, or want to make one and send it to use let us know!
Here's a 3/4 drive 24mm crank socket.
baumtools.com/shop/land-rover/engine-tools-2/303-1438-24mm-crankshaft-bolt-socket-5-0l-v8/
Why not just weld onto a normal socket. Just put a sleeve or run bead after bead
Also, just asked a friend, he has a 24mm lisle crank socket he's willing to let you use.
They needed a 1/2 drive socket to compare apples to apples. Welding a on a socket with an extensions would probably create to many variables to yield any concrete evidence.
@@dougehouser5672 I weld on stuff all the time. Put my I initials on my spud wrench and socket. I even have a spud with a 1-1/4" socket welded onto it so it doesnt fall.
The point of welding is to add weight. Just run beads or torch out a circle in a piece of chinking
We also cut the sockets we dont use in half and weld em together so its a 1/2" on both ends. We then impact out cat tails. Sssoooooo much better than the old way
Guys thank you for putting together some incredibly informative videos. The time and effort you put into it really shows and your fans are very grateful. I'll be sure to buy a shirt soon so I can support your efforts. Keep crushing guys!
Ummmm, TH-cam can we get this channel in trending?! More people in the world should know about you guys. Great content!
You should test if “limp wristing” the impact gun makes a difference compared to if you hold it very tight.
Sometimes I find it does.
Good request.
Def makes a difference to the fastener lol
I would imagine it does as the tool itself can move from the impacts instead of the impacts transferring its energy into the fastener. That's lost energy.
Also, you can make some semi-auto handguns malfunction by limp wristing them. The entire gun moves backwards which robs the energy transfer needed to cycle the slide.
I would say it definitely affects torque. It's likely just like letting a wheel spin while torquing on lugnuts, just from the other side. That energy that goes into your wrist is not going into the fastener.
Been thinking this since I found the channel. Needs a holder for constant results
I learned a long time ago that if you hold the socket in the opposite direction that the impact is hammering, it really helps the way the gun hammers. Kinda like a weighted socket but much cheaper. Keep up the good work.
Is that to take advantage of the slop in the socket fitting so it can get little running starts to slam into the stationary nut?
@@wingerrrrrrrrr It's just cuz shooting sideways make you look cool, so you do cool stuff easier... obviously... not because the weight of the tool is working in your favor... All Swag
*Makes me wonder. . . Could an "adapter" be made, that was just a large heavy disc shape. Save hundreds of dollars, and make any socket more useful when the need arises.
swench makes/made weighted socket extensions. They are just big cylinders with a female and male square ends.
Seems like it would be a terrible idea for a company that wanted to maximize profit when you can just sell each size.
@@garyrobinson3735 Well depends if you weren’t established in the weight socket market then you can undercut the competition with a far better alternative and scoop up all the sales.
You… I know you…
What if you just stuck magnets on the side?
Interesting video, I definitely thought of the Power Socket last time I watched the socket video. Thanks for doing it. You should slap it on a small wrench and see if it can do a semi lug nut that was impossible without it ( ie compact impact + IR power socket vs 500 ft lb nut)
Thanks for providing the time stamps/chapters. It makes your videos look more professional. It also means that I’ll watch more of your video that I’m not really interested in because you save me time by giving me the time stamp/chapter outline of what you’re doing.
It's all about rebound harmonic looks like,different impact speeds can be heard during tests,like different hardness on material
The "flywheel" socket mass and inertia is tuned for lower frequencies obtainable with air impact.
It reduces rebound,and is less efficient higher in frequencies.
The thin wall chromed deep socket is harder material and has more mass ,but very close to the axis of rotation,so a small inertia,wich reduces parasitic rebound.
You should try to eliminate the play in the square with shims,you would reduce or eliminate rebound,and find out different results.
Spring losses makes sense, but I think the most important factor in minimizing spring losses would actually be the closeness of the fit between the drive and the socket and the torsional rigidity of the tooling. The tighter the fit, the less rebound between drive and driven - as a thought experiment, you could imagine the ideal would be welding the socket onto the drive, resulting in near zero rebound between the drive and the socket (given that the welds don’t fail). I’d be interested to see an analysis of how drive fitment effects torque efficiency.
As an addendum, I was racking my brain to figure out why the IR tooling would have such exceptional results when your comment about the flywheel principal not being very applicable due to the fact that the constant is angular acceleration and not angular velocity is spot on imop, and I think it might be thanks to the added rigidity rather than the added mass. The spring in spring losses is the tooling itself, and the wasted energy is stored with the socket acting as a torsion spring. More (or harder) material on the diameter of the tooling would resist twisting much better compared to conventional sockets and lead to a reduction in torsion spring losses.
About 10 vids in, and I really like the graphs and spread sheets accommodating the tests. I think for me, that really separates this channel from other channels. And the in depth breakdowns, like taking apart universals.
Also I'm digging the experimental stuff. Very cool. That m60cc was awesome. Tyvm for your content.
Before I bought a 3/4 air impact for $90 from HF, I used a 1/2F/3/4M adapter and a 19mm deep well s/o 3/4-dr impact socket. It always worked for Honda crank bolts when an ordinary 1/2dr 19mm s/o deep impact socket did not. Source: Honda dealer tech using a 1/2 earthquake and IR2135 back then. Nowadays I have the PT850 and IRC9000 and rarely need the 3/4 HF gun. Would love to see the adaptor/3/4 socket combo compared to the IR power socket
TTC: “IR Powersockets make mad torque”
Me: “Told ya!”
Everytime we had a lug nut not come off when I worked at Discount Tire, we threw one of these sockets on and sure enough almost every time it took it right off.
Yea weighted sockets are always used once on a flywheel bolt and then they are forever in the toolbox. Seen this playout so many times myself included.
You should try torque limiting extensions and sockets
We'll do that. We're buying our 3rd brand/set soon
Would love to see a video on the different air fittings. V type, m type, etc
We'll be working on it! Getting everything together, air swivels soon too!
@@TorqueTestChannel One thing that would be nice to have in that video would be to include whip hoses (e.g. the one Tekton makes). Whip hoses are what people are "supposed" to use instead of swivel fittings, and I'm curious if they are actually better than swivel fittings in real world testing
First off, love the channel and the work you guys are doing.
Secondly, the term 'beans' should be standardized in the industry lol. Imma start using it in my garage.
Last, yall show the masses of each socket but not the moment of inertia (MOI) which is what is really providing the extra torque. I know MOI is not a well understood topic, and that it is hard to calculate for every socket, but I just wanted to point that out. Two sockets can have the same mass and different MOIs, it all depends on how far away the mass is from the axis of rotation; like the IR socket having that mass ring located far away from the axis of rotation.
I really like how you showed the IR patent. This shows you put a lot of work in to this video, like you do with all of them.
Thanks and keep up the great work!
This channel is like Project Farm but more focused. Keep up the great work! You are helping every consumer of these products! The internet thanks you. 👍
This channel is painful torture for my gf. But I could watch it forever
Wife here...
I work at a tire shop, and I can vouch that those power sockets do work. I could have a stuck lug and sit there with the air impact for well over 15 seconds, and still get nothing. We used to only have one option in that case. Go grab a breaker bar, and potentially hurt yourself, which happened on occasion. But then we got a full set of those power sockets, which included 17mm, 19mm, 21mm, 7/8", and 15/16". They will break that stuck lug loose in under a second. The only downside to them which was briefly mentioned, is that you have to have the room to use them. For example, the 17mm rarely ever gets used, because most Mercedes/BMW wheels have the lug bolts recessed into the wheel, and the power socket is way too thick.
Thank you so much for this!!! i've been waiting for this kind of testing and i'm super happy you guys finally did it.
Who in the world would dislike videos from TTC?????
Would love to see a BBBCS "Best Best Best Case Scenario" episode. Use a gun with the larger air inlet, raise the pressure above the BCS like in that IR episode, use the power socket.
Told y'all on TikTok. 😎
I would never have guessed this outcome... I was thinking that the lighter sockets would fare better, because the gun has to accelerate the mass of the socket before it can transfer the energy into the fastener..... but now as I'm thinking about it, look at the "Newton's Cradle"... perhaps the weighted sockets prevent/absorb the rebound (reflected energy) so that the socket is more "in position" to transfer the next hammer blow...
Thank you so much guys for this!!! Learn something new every day!!!!
I would love to see a comparison of a 19mm IR power socket versus the 19mm Lisle
The problem with these sizes when tightening like we can measure is the threads for that drive size (16mm on a Honda) would mangle and not give any useful data.
@@TorqueTestChannel I would like to see the 19mm comparison also. How about welding a 19mm nut on the end of the regular large screw? With the slight modification you could test 19mm sockets and not worry about threads distorting.
@@TorqueTestChannel Maybe use the weakest 1/2 impact you can find and do a head to head on IR vs Lisle. I'll buy you a Lisle socket if you need one.
That seems like the solution to excessive power in the test rig. Limited power in, limited power out, and any differences could be validated. The only thing is that impact rate timing probably will be a variable that affects how well the power socket works, like the timing of pushing a kid on a swing as opposed to a burly man.
It’s almost like putting extra mass in your impact gun hammer mechanism. Interesting and intriguing. I’ll need a bigger rollaway if I’m going to buy any more sockets!!
I have first hand experience with the Lisle style sockets and can say they definitely work.
I bought an old Civic with a broken timing belt, and used every tool that I had in my box or could borrow to try unsuccessfully to remove the 17mm crank pulley bolt. I even tried using a 3/4” air impact gun (unfortunately without having a 3/4” drive 17mm socket) and all it did was laugh at my reducer. I was highly dubious of these sockets, but bought a set as a final desperate attempt. The bolt came out within 5 seconds when using the super thicc walled socket. They definitely made me a believer. I’ve used the 17mm and 19mm now multiple times, as well as loaned them out a few times, and they always get the job done. I’ve even been able to use my weak Craftsman electric impact to remove the crank bolts when my IR air impact with a regular socket can’t.
My son the mechanic had much the same experience.
Two men working for an hour with breaker bar on my 2003 crv.
Years later when a Friends civic using a weighted socket and bolt zips right out.
Torque Test Channel isn’t the hero we ever asked for because we didn’t know how much we needed them.
#TTCdoesitagain #imaheadout #bangdorangtorquetestchannel
The channel that nobody knew they wanted, but they need it.
Subbed. This is EXCELLENT content and video quality is great! Thank you for presenting this, makes me look differently at my setup, which has been trial and error. One thing I noticed after upgrading to a 3/4 IR impact, hoses and fittings matter! I it would be so interesting with your test rig to see how your supply affects torque performance. I had to re-plumb my supply from the tank, all 1/2 inch pipes, hoses, regulator, and fittings plus I put a higher pressure switch (155-175psi) and have the reg at 120. it hits so much harder now. Having a gauge right before the tool was the eye opener, the pressure drop in your plumbing needs to be talked about!
Absolutely. Spot on
Unbelievable that the mass of a socket can have such a huge effect on torque delivered to the fastener. I am really surprised!!! As always excellent video!
I worked in a shop that serviced only Hondas and Acuras. We had a 3/4” impact and a 1/2” hose used exclusively for harmonic balancer bolt removal. Once the Lisle socket came out, everyone bought one, and that 3/4” gun was never touched again.
In a garage we tried everything on a crank bolt to change the water pump nothing would move, we got a heavy socket (like mentioned for Honda) even if nobody believed it would do anything we were out of options and within 2 seconds it was loose even if it didn’t move after atleast 10mins of impacting before. I haven’t heard anything about it since so im happy to see it here
Really fascinating result! In a linear system, the total kinetic energy increases linearly with mass if velocity is constant (KE=0.5mv²). Increasing velocity is more efficient however which is why we've seen a trend in reducing bullet weights in the military in favor of faster bullets. The equation does not exactly apply to your test since your test involves a rotating element but the principle is the same: with velocity constant, increasing mass should increase total kinetic energy (beans). Which it clearly did.
But considering that the "super socket" costs $100, that implies a set of ten "super sockets" would cost... $1000!!! The cost for even ONE "super socket" makes you ask yourself: why not loosen all the lug nuts with a normal, $5 socket and a $25 cheater bar, then follow behind that with the normal socket on a normal impact gun to quickly remove all the lug nuts? I mean unless you're working in the pit stop of a Formula One race then the "super socket" seems like an overpriced luxury.
Guys I don’t know anything about what I just watched and yet I watched the whole video which says something about the channel 😂
Me: Former 1999 Honda owner.
Some rando on the internet: *Honda Crank bolt*
Me: Whimpers brokenly in the corner of the room.
Love my weighted balancer socket, works every time.
I have "weighted" sockets which I use for removing honda and toyota crankshaft bolts. Makes all the difference in the world. Regular impact sockets many times won't remove the crankshaft bolt, but the heavier sockets work (f=ma).
I think using 6 point vs 12 point makes a difference. Might skew some of these numbers a tad. Also might be another good video. Same socket brand, 6 vs 12 in standard and deep.
Not ruling it out, but at 9:29 didn't seem like a noteworth difference going from 6 to 12 point
so how about i just take a cheep impact set from harbor freight and weld some weight on the back end of it? i bet i could wip out a full set in a few hours for the price of one ingersoll rand power socket.
if you can make it balanced because of the rpm of an air impact, go for it lol
Incredible. Thanks for the interesting and helpful video. I did not think that the head with protection will show itself well
Great test. Thanks for digging into the math as well - very informative. Nowadays, impact wrenches are so good, comparisons are almost moot. My Matco 2769 is such a beast it out muscles my older Snap-On 3/4" gun. Keep up the great videos!
if you ever worked at a shop you know what a difference the IR flywheel socket especially the 19 mm on Honda crank bolts.. Its a life saver, we swear by them
The thin chrome are made with harder material. The black impact sockets are soft so they don't shatter. From what I've been told
Hence the reason to wear eye protection as he did. I saw one fly out when a rookie mechanic used it to take out lug nuts.
I'm not surprised the 1970's chrome craftsman didn't break. That was a different era for American made quality tools. My first 'set' of tools purchased in 1973 or 74. was a Craftsman tool box full of 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 inch chrome mostly 12 point sockets, deep and shallow. I still have most of them and put a lot of abuse to them with a 25+ year career in the automotive - truck filed (new car dealers). I only broke a couple.
BPM is a critical variable because each of these tools and drive systems have some kind of natural frequency. They will spring back in some amount of time. If you can apply another blow before the spring back has fully returned, then the energy will "pile up" in the driven object. These heavy sockets work by lowering that torsional frequency, making the spring back take significantly more time. Time enough that another blow can be applied before it is fully returned.
This time dynamic is also why some impacts simply don't work with torque sticks. Torque sticks also lower the torsional frequency, but they do it not by being heavier, they do it just by reduced stiffness. So a higher BPM impact will apply a blow before the torque stick has unwound from its deflection, thus allowing torque to pile up and far exceed the rating of the torque stick. It would be really great if torque stick makers would put a max BPM rating on their products so that people would use them properly.
Finally, this dynamic is why the long extensions lose so much power. The long extensions are less stiff torsionally, and they tend to act a bit like torque sticks. If you repeated the long extension testing with a very high BPM tool and a very low BPM tool, you'd find the higher BPM tool can run a longer extension before the torque level falls off a lot.
Interesting video but now I want to see you sleeve a normal socket with some pipe and see what kind of results you get, jbweld or a similar compound would probably be the best way to attach it without potentially impairing the strength of the socket like welding could
I'd like to see high speed photomicrography video of the IR socket in action, showing the outer ring moving like a torsion spring in relation to the central core. That's why the cutouts rather than filling it all in.
@@wingerrrrrrrrr No, the cutouts are there to provide the best distortion reduction to weight increase, ratio. Torsion spring action is exactly what you want to avoid because it reduces impact force in order to store energy and gradually dissipate, just as it does in any other application.
Great video I have always theorised this but it was great to see that weighted IR socket hit it out if the park. Great job guys. I don't know why I've watched so many of your ugga-dugga videos!
I think the key is to match the mass on both sides of the impact, so that all the momentum is transferred. It has nothing to do with spring rate, just the math of where the energy ends up in a collision. So you want the bolt, socket, anvil, and hammer to each have the same mass and moment of inertia.
I was really surprised by the stubby socket losing out. It makes sense with it being the lightest but I'll usually grab that if the longer socket is too wobbly like you showed, and the stubby would usually do the trick, interesting
A weighted adapter would seem to make more sense than weighting each individual socket. Would also give options depending on adapter length for keeping the extra diameter further back from the fastener, potentially allowing more room than the hoola-hoop socket.
I thought the power socket was a scam, good to know it actually does what it says.
Do you think you could attach a dumbbell weight to a socket? Maybe machine the ID in a lathe for an interference fit with the socket, then press it on?
Why not just weld a weight on it?
@@ShaunHensley A lot of weights are cast iron, cast iron is hard to weld and you need special materials. Even if the weights are not cast iron, you would still have an issue trying to weld dissimilar metals. Even if you did manage to weld them together, the socket would be weakened from the heat, making it a potential explosion hazard.
I’ve never seen welded sockets fail from welding modification unless someone burned through the sidewalk, or applied 5,000 gorillas of force (which would have still destroyed the unwelded socket).
1. Don’t weld on the fastener end face
2. Don’t over weld and turn the whole damn socket into a cherry
3. Preferably don’t weld on thin wall sockets.
4. Don’t quench the socket unless you are tracking temps. You could easily over-harden it turning it brittle. Just let it air cool.
5. Whether a socket is hardened or not doesn’t really matter if you follow the above.
This is the test I’ve been waiting for!
Great videos, my friend! Keep them coming! Super informative and straight to the biz. The toque ranking chart it badass too
Thank you fir another fantastic video! Got my Live Moving Graph fix for the day and learned a LOT from this video. 🙏
I noticed alot of loss in the recoil or violent rattling while bolting up and impacting structural bolts (and disassembly) so to mitigate that i put my hand on the socket and turn it along as i impact. Effectively cutting out the space that the socket is used as an anvil to torque bolt. It seems to work wonders tightening and loostening for me in the feild and gives corded impacts that extra umph needed in a pinch and air the extra umph needed when you really need it 🤣 wouldnt recomend it all the time if you dont want arthritis when your old. But works for me. either way loved the video and just thought id share my experience as to why that flywheel socket thing makes sense as to why it would work in mt head
Spring rates can be changed in many ways such as socket wall thickness, socket length, and even local stiffnesses within the socket such as around the anvil, or around where it interfaces with the nut will affect the total spring rate of the socket.. I do believe mass can also play a role. I would say to truely segregate spring rate of the sockets from pure mass would be to test a socket and then attach a mass such as a collar to the socket and retest. Will have to be careful and attach it to an area that already has significant stiffness like around the anvil connection. Also want to limit stiffness increases to the socket to an attachment method like epoxy such as JB Weld might be more suitable instead of pressing on a collar or welding on a collar.
I'm a Honda tech and I do about 20-60 timing belts per year. My snap on dealer came in with a 19mm Lisle weighted socket and wagered a bet. He said I the socket could get a crank pulley bolt off that I had to buy it. Naturally I was skeptical since I usually have to heat the bolts. It pulled the bolt out like it was undoing a lug nut, it was almost magic. Needless to say that was one bet I was happy to lose.
She’s big she’s round she walks she shakes the ground!
😂
Seems like a WWE introduction 🙃
I have no idea if you can measure it but I knew a tech who would rev the impact and socket to full rpm unloaded then stab the bolt for just a little bit extra break away.
😂 That’s amazing.
Thick wall sockets are amazing, the Honda crank bolt I could not get loose even with a 3 foot breaker bat and the proper holding tool was spun off easy borrowing the thick socket. I bought my own after using it.
Way better idea: A short weighted flywheel extension. You only need buy it once and keep using your existing sockets...
i can absolutely vouch for the IR 19mm socket (right in thumbnail). i use this regularly to remove honda/Acura crank bolts with ease
Awesome! Thanks for the science, I would not have anticipated that result. In your newer video about adding adapters, there were losses despite the gain in inertial mass, so it does look like there are a lot of interesting physics going on here. I should have been an ME, but I chose EE/CE, so all this stuff is foreign, but fascinating. Thanks again!!
You just get better and better. Love the channel. Keep up the good work Amigo. I've got a few random things I could send ya if you wanted to test em or compare. I'll pay for shipping
Wonder if you could make a generic weight to clamp on to regular sockets just so you didn't have to buy them all again. Maybe you could test a homemade one with varying weights to see if there is more power to be gained?
Something like a split pipe collar or a drill stop would probably work.
Big fan of weighted sockets for removing crank bolts! I have a 22m lisle and plan on picking up the 19mm too.
I have gotten extra torque out of my impact by turning the socket by hand while it's hammering. I assume it's because I'm effectively damping the springyness of the socket. Would be very interested to see you involve this in one of your tests as a cheap alternative to that power socket.
I used to do the same thing it seemed to make a difference.
If you're going to take off a honda harmonic balancer/crank bolt with a 1/2 impact don't even bother trying without the lisle socket. Maybe it can be done with a standard 3/4" drive socket but I don't have one of those to verify. Good luck to trying hand tools as well; I broke 2 ratchets and a breaker bar before I got power tools and even then struggled until I found someone in the forums saying you need the lilse socket.
I do have the IR 19 mm special socket and it does work. I broke loose probably at least 4 Honda crank bolt with it.
how would the results change using an extension or as someone mentioned what about a very heavy diy modified extension having an effect? great video btw and learned a lot!!
I have a set of those deep 6 point protective sockets and they work well for around $6 each. More than worth buying even if you have other sockets that fit, because they don't beat up the lug nuts or scratch the wheel. BUT! You have to be careful which brand you purchase. Some are cast knockoffs and will shatter according to some reviews.
I worked in a Costco tire center and we had those ir sockets for those lug nuts that really didn’t want to come off and I don’t think we ran into any lug nuts that they wouldn’t take off
So would a 1/2 inch impact have more power than the same impact with a 3/8 inch anvil?
It’s not the anvil size that makes the difference. Case in point is the Milwaulkee M13 stubby impacts. Exact same torque from a 3/8” and a 1/2”.
@@fomoco300k also the 3/8 and 1/2 M18 compact have the same torque.
@@svn5994 Right, they list the same torque on the box, but do they actually have the same torque? This video clearly shows that more mass makes more power on the same tool
Great to see the new table! It looks great!
You guys are very humble scientists!
I would love to see how well would an adapter which only consists of the flywheel do? I mean it would be great if you could buy only one and use your entire set with it even if it would do half the improvements of the one-piece setup...
That would be the worst thing possible to do because it's not rotational mass that helps (rather that alone hurts, if all else where equal), rather reducing deformation and by adding an adapter in series, you'd suffer the same types of losses already demonstrated with other adapters/extensions.
You want the shortest distance from anvil to fastener but with enough metal to suffer least deformation, and enough that you can use a more brittle metal without it cracking. Heavier socket is just a means towards less deformation.
Think of it like this: Suppose you use a hammer to drive a nail. Now put a rubber cap over the hammer head. Will it drive in the nail as well? Of course not, even though you have more mass and less deflection, because there is greater deformation and peak impact loss.
Love it! Also pleasantly surprised at the margin of improvement using the IR socket.
I could not take the crank pulley bolt on my Honda FOR THE LIFE OF ME and the big lisle boy he shows on Amazon is exactly what I bought, $30. Worked like a charm.
What about a test to see if there's any noticeable difference when using a deepwell socket alone vs grabbing the deepwell socket while it's impacting and twisting it in the same direction. I feel like there won't be that much of a difference in torque, but maybe in time taken to get to a certain torque level. Or maybe you just end up with a violent hand massage while you're working.
This is on the book. I remember years ago I was reading Lincoln tech textbook it stated deep impact socket produces more torque than shallow. I tested it out on a Honda crank bolt, it’s true.
I bought a 19 mm weighted socket designed to remove Honda crankshaft bolts. Anyone who has tried to remove them by hand even with special dedicated wrenches knows how hard it is to do. The socket removes the bolts with one pull of the trigger of my air gun. One of the best tool inventions ever. I use it for many applications where there is a stubborn 19 mm bolt.
This is superlatively useful info. Thanks!👍👍
Great info! Always get this question on how much it actually works. Thank you!
You bet! The answer is 20-34% across all tools we've tested (when you actually divide top power run vs bottom run to get increase).
How about clutch types and output vs torque sticks. I've heard they only work with single or twin hammer guns and do not work with pin clutch or electric impacts. I suspect they simply are designed for weaker guns than 800ftlbs monsters we have now a days, but it would be cool to see the torsion bar effect in action and how they do or do not diminish torque, how consistent they are, and if cheap vs expensive matters.
Do the impact driver specific drives like the Milwaukee "Shockwave" ones increase torque? Or do they break less? Break more? Or are they just going for style points?
Project farm did a video on this and they break more. If I remember right they didn't made more torque.
Awesome Test! You guys should torque test torque limiting sticks for air and battery impacts; they seem wildly inaccurate particularly with the battery impacts I’ve used
I'm a bit fuzzy on the physics behind this. A flywheel works by resisting changes in rotational speed. It soaks up engine power as you're accelerating, and then releases it when you aren't. But that shifting of energy from one side of the equation to the other requires a fair amount of rpms to have any real effect. As you can see on the dyno the impact wrench doesn't really spin the socket much at all, so the flywheel effect would be basically nothing. And if you're working on a really stuck bolt it's not rotating at all.
So the only other consideration is increased mass. If you think of an impact wrench like using a hammer on a standard wrench to bust loose a stubborn bolt, and when the normal hammer doesn't work you get your mini-sledge out and it does, then you can see the benefit of increased mass. But we're not increasing the mass of the "hammer" in this case, as that's all happening inside the impact wrench. We're effectively adding mass to the thing we're hitting with the hammer, which seems like it wouldn't do too much.
IR's claim is that this is reducing a spring effect inherent to the impact wrench design. Going back to the hammer + wrench analogy if you pre-load the wrench by twisting it in the direction you want it to go before hitting it with the hammer you'll have better luck. And if you get a nice solid hit that doesn't bounce off that tends to work better too. So I *think* that's what's happening here. A heavier, stronger socket will tend to absorb the blows without chattering/bouncing as much, which results in more torque being actually delivered where you want it. Another example would be trying to hammer a nail into a piece of wood trim. If the wood is hanging off the edge of your table it's not going to happen, every time you hit the nail the wood flexes and the nail doesn't go through. But lay it on a solid base and the nail goes right in.
This could also explain the difference in rated torque output of these tools and the actual measurements seen on this channel. The ratings are just mathematical projections based on the internal design of the tool, but do not take into account any losses from a less than perfect connection between the tool and the thing you're using it on. The less flex, or springiness, you get from the socket the closer to the theoretical max torque the tool can produce. Presumably then some ridiculously massive, 20 pound socket, would get reasonably close to the rated torque output.