What Is The Best TT Bar Angle For Cycling? | Aerodynamic Position Wind Tunnel Testing
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- We’re looking at different time trial riding positions for triathlon and cycling. Watch the professionals and even they are divided, so how do you work out what is the best position for you? We’ve been in the wind tunnel.
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Hands up or hands down? We’re talking about the different time trial riding positions. There are pros and cons for both, watch the professionals and even they are divided, so how do you work out what is the best position for you?
We visited the Silverstone Sports Engineering Hub to try and find the answer, using the wind tunnel to measure the difference in the aerodynamics between each position.
It isn’t that black and white though, so we’ve also be got the help of an expert to interpret these results and make them relevant to even the average age group triathlete!
If you enjoyed this video, make sure to give it a thumbs up and share it with your friends. 👍
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The best position is the one you can keep for a couple of hours!
Great video, but I think looking up, as you'd do in a race would probably make the results more accurate
Absolutely! What's the point in testing a position you would never hold on the road?
I was just talking about this with a buddy who's a pro triathlete. Seems like more and more people are trying different aerobar angles. Thanks so much for making this video.
I find it best to set the bar angle to an angle where it allows me to totally relax my hands. Too flat or too steep and you have to grip with your hands to avoid sliding back or forwards. That will cost you energy/power that isn't going to the pedals, plus fatigue your arms and reduce your control.
I’ve been to a tunnel, I tested faster with low hands vs high hands. In real world, I’ve done more reps than I’ll admit over a 5 mile stretch of road with my hands in varying positions, and keeping my wattage at 320w, my times were within seconds of each other, most likely just margin of error with my power meter, possible wind changes, possibly me moving something else slightly (head), etc. I think a takeaway from my visit to the tunnel was that you can make anything matter in a lab setting. Eyelids closed? Half a watt. Left eye open right eye closed? 2 watts. Truth is, your bike in a tunnel is clamped straight up and down, when you’re on the road, you’re rocking, not in a straight line, cars, wind swirling, etc. Some of this is voodoo.
I'd agree entirely. You've hit the nail on the head. A wind tunnel is an inert environment and those pedalling it's merits and claiming massive wattage savings don't give the full picture.
But is there a position more comfortable than the other?
But, that's why you evaluate the data in Aerolab. So as to calculate CdA. It doesn't have to be a gut check.
@@Hambini of course, and that counts for cars etc. too.
But that is not what wind tunnel testing is all about, or any other simulation is all about...
I like to adjust the TT bars so that I can comfortably shrug my shoulders and dig into the bars. If the bars force me to the edge of my comfort zone, I'll know that my position on the bike will deteriorate during the ride. Whereas when I feel like I can go a little lower I will really shrug my shoulders and drop my head.
I think that’s what Taylor Phinney says he does as well.
In a velodrome, I think either position is fast. Mantis is probably faster for most people. On the open road, the ultimate speed is realised by hands in a low position (flat). This is generally because the airflow is much more erratic out in the real world.
I have found from testing that lots of riders are guided to a hands up position and believe this to be faster but they've measured this in a wind tunnel with perfectly straight flow. If you repeat the test in a tunnel with transient flow it favours the low arms EVERY time - "spike aero"
Hambini
Interesting perspective Hambini, is it similar to wheel aero development, where once we thought something was great in straight line but then it kinda proved to cause a lot of drag when wind turned...
HELLO HAMBINI FANS
Bruh what have tested, all we have are your claims you work in aerospace and that you wear a boiler suit to sell the idea 🤡
no Hambini. it's highly individual. For me there is no difference between 15, 20 and 25 degree.
@@JohnDoe-xx4igin this video they literally tested lower hands being faster than higher hands
I always have to laugh when newbies ask such questions. I understand the desire to do it right. But if we're talking amateurs, you should invest the money in yourself. Optimizations like this can shave minutes off and can make the difference between first place and second place or qualifying to Kona or not. Improving yourself can shave off hours and make the difference between finishing and not finishing, having a shot at Kona and not having a shot.
If you're just starting out, I wouldn't even bother with a triathlon bike. Work on your fitness and make sure you include flexibility and strength training. Because that's what will allow you to get into and hold a good position. And it takes time. At this stage, any bike will do. Anything you can clamp on a trainer so you can suffer. Anything you can take out for a recovery ride. And if you go to a race, it will be more about the atmosphere, meeting people and gaining experience. The bike doesn't really matter as long as it's comfortable enough to do the distance. It's hard to say when is the right time to buy a triathlon bike. It depends. Do you already own a road bike? Do you want a road bike? I would want to wait at least a year (again, spend money on yourself first) and you definitely want to be strong and flexible before you do. Also, forget about getting a superbike (unless you just fancy blowing money). You're fighting a law of diminishing returns and these days, even entry-lever gear is very good. Well, I don't think truly entry-level triathlon bikes exist anymore. People weren't buying them. Nowadays, entry-level is more like 4k. One thing you might want to invest in is a cockpit with a wide range of adjustability. Not only will it allow you to get into the position you want, it will allow the bike to grow with you. Front-end adjustability is an often overlooked aspect. It doesn't matter that you don't know at this point which position is optimal. Or which gear combination is optimal. You can't go wrong with working on your flexibility. And gradually getting lower is a pretty safe bet. Flexibility gives you options. Then, once you are up there in your age group and you want to take a crack at those small improvements, you're in a good position to optimize. Because you have options.
I like and ride with the high up (in your face). More comfortable and i can put my 2 lights on. I do night time riding because less people on the road and my work and family schedule. Lower i position i can't hang my lights and feel like less control going down hill. Love your videos.
I've been really curious about this as well. Thanks for the video.
Aero bars behaviour and setup characteristics are the same as the handlebar stem characteristics. A longer & straighter more horizontal forward bike stem forces the rider to maintain the handle bar in a straight position or creates a more stable steering during cross winds. The stem and the aerobar both act as a lever wich amplifies your force necessary to maintain the handlebar stable and straight. Especially with high rim aero wheels and sidewinds stability is a factor to take into consideration for being able to maintain an aerobar position during strong crosswinds.
Just like pulling a stem upwards in a more upward vertical than preferred forward horizontal position and by shortening the length so is pulling up & shortening the aero bar --> decreasing (side wind) steering stability ! Arm rests can change little about that. So not only because the test also showed low & straight stem + aerobars is more aero, I also prefer straight because it is easier to setup and for sure more stable on my tt bike.
Second when you want to ride aero on your road bike without aerobars research has shown that horizontal straight forward forearms leaning both on the hoodies & on the top of the handlebars is more aero than vertical forarms in the handlebar drops.
Hambini's comment is directly on point. Wind tunnel tests using laminar flow are mostly useless except for indoor velodrome riders. I challenge you all to do a real world test on a loop at different power levels in hands up versus hands flat position. Analyze your speed vs power data and see which position is faster. I used a road bike with clip-on bars in order to compare apples to apples as close as reasonably possible and rode a loop that is mostly flat and about a mile in length. Your position of course should be as close as possible to to your aero bike position. Do at least 3 reps for each position and power level. Flat arms and hands is clearly faster for me. Several minutes over IM distance. And more comfortable for me. And yes, I do have a doctorate in engineering.
Terribly flawed hypothesis.
Yes, it is clear you are a narrow-minded engineer, not a knowledgeable cyclist or logical thinker.
CdA is not a drag coefficient. Cd is a drag coefficient. It tells you how aerodynamic a shape is. Shape, regardless of size. Size is represented by A, the frontal area. That's why CdA is measured in square meters (coefficient is dimensionless).
There is one thing worth keeping in mind if you're going to play with tilt and that's front hydration. If you're using a front hydration system and it's clamped to your extensions, then tilting extensions up tilts your bottle/ tank up as well, exposing its belly. It might not matter that much if it's just a bottle, but if you've got one of those aero tanks sitting bellow your extensions (like Profile Design FC), it's going to do it no favours. Something that mounts to a stem or base bar would be better (like Profile Design Aeria).
Yes, the general wisdom is that it's better to have a suboptimal position that you can maintain than an optimal position that you can't. As the penalty for breaking a position (especially going to base bar) can easily be higher than the benefit of optimal position. Essentially, you're interested in optimizing your average position across a race, not just the "peak" position. Also, a bigger factor should be how low your back is than how high your hands are (and that's where the trade-off between drag and power should lie). Actually, I imagine even better should be forearms folded on your chest, hands below your chin. And it should be pretty comfortable. But that would probably take a custom bike. And it would probably lead into a trade-off with a wheel choice (you wouldn't have much leverage to deal with crosswinds).
one word ...
Superman
YES! and not obrees or boardmans version. even the tunnel tests show that obrees version wasnt that great...BUT! Bellutti from italy at the 96 olympics by far the best version ever ...so flat long and stream lined they, it was after the olympics that is was banned for giving such HUGE advantage (if done RIGHT). I had a alloy superman rig built end of 96 based on Bellutis set up and bolted it on an oversized tt frame... so wish I kept it. no issue in cross winds and all my bike splits were quicker than my previous low hands position that i had set up with australian institute of sport riders and input from a former olympian Mark Kingsland who raced boardman in 92 at barcelona. but instantly the superman position was waaay quicker, even my first nervous test on straight road . I even rode the superman in traffic to build confidence lol. but yes...the big S.
Cool video. Love for all the minimal geeks out there. Just curious if you guys can do a show on the Omius headband. Its incredibly expensive but I follow this Canadian tri Podcast that had the CEO on. Just want to know how good the head band is for cooling and what real world gains come from it. They mentioned some pros are wearing it including the likes of Anne Haug. For all those interested the podcast is Endurance Innovation. I have no affiliation with this podcast but love the guys and support anything I can for endurance sport.
amazing video I loved it
Need to keep your head up
3:45 the app that measures the angle....what is it called?
IMRyan on the iPhone it’s called measure and it’s already installed. On Android it’s bubble level and it may already be installed otherwise many free ones.
@@bighammer3464 same on my xiaomi
I think they should be angled upwards. Look at all the older Ironman races from the early days they almost all had them upwards. Also look at Greg Lemond 1989 Tour DeFrance his set up was really upward. But I think really is what best suits the rider and the bike they have.There can be no expert answer here. What works for me may not work for you.
Grip angle I sometimes wonder about. Some are a simple angle up, others have two curves and the end is almost parallel to the forearm causing you to twist forward your wrist. I have wondered if this extra strain and rotation while possibly more aero is worth it and after the video I should think not. Yet all the modern options follow the design so at times you make due with current trends?
I was also wondering about the parallel to the ground grip. Did you try it or get to find out anything about it? I was looking at the AeroCoachs, but this exact thought has bee running across my mind......thanks....
Isn’t it a bit unrealistic when the head is down and looking down?
Many Pro Time Trial Riders constantly drop their head, then peak, then drop it again. Remco Evenepoel is one of many top riders that do this .
@@douglasmcclellan1692 fair enough.
Great video! insightful! and what is the name of the opening tune in the video? very cool!
I love hand up a bit..more smooth more power..
10:10 you have to get your head down but still look forwards.
10:24 you must be looking down the road and not the floor.
10:34 F... it I am just going to look down, not forward !!!!!!!!!!!!!
😂😂😂😂😂😂
UCI restrictions for pro cyclists are very tight on length. Tilting the bars to the maximum allows you to gain a bit of extra length to the elbow position while keeping the extentions within the limits.
high hands much faster for me, about 20 watts faster. same for all my teammates except 2 dudes
Hambini, needs to critique this!
Stinker Seb! Of all the things the video may need, Hambini commentary isn’t one of them.
Scott H why not?
Hello hambini fans 😂 hambini is the aero god 👍
I put my bottle and bento box between my arms and I believe that when I angle my arms up it’s more aero, but I’ve never tested it.
Hi, my pool is closed because of the coronavirus. Do you have any advice on how to stay fit outside the pool for when i can swim again? Thank you.
Hi Mirth, I am a P1/2 Crit Racer, so I race at a high level of cycling. Do you do cycling or only swimming? If you do cycling, going for bike ride away from large crowds of people, or hitting the turbo trainer is a great way to keep up fitness. If you don't do cycling and mostly swimming, running is a great way to exercise. It may suck at first, but running everyday will jurastically improve your health mentally and physically. For me, yoga is also great to open up any muscles tendens and become more flexible. Or maybe fasting, fasting is scientifically proven to be very good for people's health. All in all, I would say to run, yoga, fasting, and doing core exercises and workouts at home is all very good. Staying away from the gym is a good idea. And this is if you don't cycle, if you do, Zwift races are the key to staying fit at home
@@chickenleg123 Thank you, i live in canada so there snow everywhere but i will keep running and doing zwift. :)
@@007juuu 100% ! There will be tons of Zwift Races available over the time of the spread of coronavirus
I don't understand how how you have a chart with two values for watts saved when you only did two tests...
Actually, six tests. Two different hand positions , each done at three different speeds, as they say in the video
No water bottles or bike computer??????
First and most aero 😤
I find myself holding my hands...
Also, did Heather, an Olympic athlete, call herself an average age group athlete? Lol
Her sport didn't involve bicycling though.
@ Global Triathlon Network - @5:08 I'm confused - at 40 km/hr, the flat bars required 55 Watts of work - to maintain 40 km/hr with angled bars, it was 49 W power. So LESS wattage with angled bars to maintain same speed - yes? So angled bars more efficient? Or am I missing something here? Thanks!
I was thinking the same thing🤷🏻♂️
The table shows "Watts Saved"(in bold red letters next to the table), not watts used to maintain the speed, so higher number = more efficient. It usually takes around 220-280 watts to maintain 40km/hr (varies based on rider size, positions, etc.). If one can go 40km/hr with only 50 watts of power then everyone will be cycling at 70km/hr and we don't need cars!
@@mintheman7 Aha! Got it. Watts SAVED! Makes total sense now, thanks!
I'm curious why Heather chose to do the test with an unrealistic face pointed down at the ground position. You wouldn't ride outside like that.
Chris froome does
Pulkit Sharma there is no traffic in his way
@@paulwright2302 Aren't roads closed for triathlons?
@@9034833838 I prefer to ride in such position as well. Ofc, I need to look foward time to time, but It depends on my confidence in a road ahead.
@@fedoresko same. If I have scouted a road before and know its pothole free, I just put my hands on my road bars and put my head down
I hope wind tunnel testing will one day be able to use a setup that will allow for the natural body and bike sway that occurs as we bike.
outdoor a to b to a testing with a timer or gps will offer more usable data, also the more cycles of this you do the more or less supported the data you begin to compile for change to your setup.
They could just set the bike up on some rollers that are shielded from the wind. Far more realistic.
This video was very informative and very helpful. Thank you!
Such great content! Good information for all levels of triathletes. Keep up the great work.
Much appreciated!
Hands down in the race, hands up after the race.
Would the high position suggestion apply to a road bike with aero bars added on?
What are the Ergon foam grips on your TT bars?
Playing with the helmet..... Lol
I was wondering about how to get the elbows (armrests) closer together, that is, closer to the stem. Apparently, there's only the option of moving normal to that angle. Has it only occurred to me that people have different riding positions?
Very interesting.
The problem is that you cannot see forward. When you look up you are pinching your neck which is okay for ten miles but not for 100 plus miles.
La position n'est pas du tout réaliste puisque elle ne regarde pas la route. C'est donc un faux test.
Why do the French always feel the need to comment in French on English videos ....
Where can a person find the Ergon bar grips in the video? Checked the Ergon site and only saw MTB and hybrid grips. Thanks!
My 2cents.....the position that you will stay in the longest is the best. It makes no sense being in a position that saves 20 watts, but can only ride it for 20% of the event.
Hands up directs more air above you than hands down
You directed a higher volume of air to that helmet
Hands down routed more air under your body
Ideally you would route more air to an aero helmet
Wondering if you considered the impact of the bottle cage inbetween the aerobars.
Thank you for the awesome info!! Will def try it out
I got the greatest comfort when I turned my poles slightly inward (so not parallel anymore) so I didn't need to supinate my arms anymore. That relaxed my shoulders and made I could keep my position effortlessly (well apart from the initial neck pain from looking up all the time but that got better with training). TBH I race no one but myself.
I started off with twisting the bars a little inward same as the roadbike, just seems more comfortable. I have J-bends on 15 degree angles. Thinking of getting Aerocoaches, maybe high 25 degree+ 15 angles will give me 40high below the chin if I want it. What did you end up with?
My bars are probably 5-7 degree angle. I’m curious though, about elbow pad height. How much of a difference that makes?
I think none as if your stem sits lower it canceled out any position change a rise in pads might have over bars. Saddle to pad height should be fit to you so if the pads are high, that only drops the stem to compensate so would think the aero is the same.
You can hold it just fine if you adapt and practice. 30 years ago it was hard to hold the high seat, low bars position that is the norm today.
Why was it harder?
@@Alex-kr7zr 30 years ago have poorer road condition. You don't have much good road to rides on it. If you go rides that low high seat like TT bike do these day, you simple can't hold on it. And 30 years ago racing bike have older geometry akin to similar today touring bike. Very large tires, very incline angle.
You folks have the units wrong... It is not KPH, but km/h. Learn the SI units. and Feather Hell, please name one person who is riding 50 km/h.
A S lLionel and Starky rode 50 at Challenge Daytona.
@@jmw2224 Average or some short peak?
A S Average, look it up. They had peaks higher even.
@@jmw2224 Something is wrong with your calculation, puppy! Cameron Wurf rode in Kona the fastest bike split at 42,76 km/h speed and Eddy Merckx with his hour world record was under 50 km/h. Checking Lionel's splits, he was riding around 31mph, what is cca 45 km/h...
A S what part of 31mph = 50km/h are you having trouble with? That’s what he rode. This has nothing to do with Wurf in Kona, try to stick to with the right race fella.
First and most aero 😤
One important question: THE POOLS IN MY CITY ARE SHUT DOWN. HOW DO I MAINTAIN MY FITNESS? I am running and riding but I’m worried about the swim leg.
welcome to almost everyone's world! Dryland fitness, core, strength inc therabands/swim cords and remember its a small inconvenience, your swim leg should be the least of your worries :)
And this from SwimSmooth th-cam.com/video/uzLeNojV_kw/w-d-xo.html&mc_cid=168247557a&mc_eid=737e4d058b
I wonder what the pros must be doing.....
Swim outside?