To this date, still one of the best GCN videos ever made. No intentional product endorsements, no biased opinions, just data with solid methodology. Not to mention, Ollie is my favorite presenter since Matt. Then again, my favorite Top Gear presenter was James May ("Captain Slow"), if that says anything about my preferences.
Agree. Very good. I was looking for something that compared a full on TT vs an optimized aeroroad bike with clip on position and this was perfect. It makes me not want to spend the cash on a new TT bike.
I save about 50 watts by only riding with a tailwind. When I have a headwind, I simply turn around and pedal backwards, meaning that the wind is always behind me.
But mostly we need to get back to the point of starting where we park our car or for example to came back to home.. so I mean that at the first the wind will be in my back but later on I have to face it when u r already exhausted
only if you're a carist, a cyclist can ride tailwinds and use trains headwinds. 1904 TDF athletes did use trains to get there faster, some used cars,it was considered cheating. but no need: start your next tour with Tailwind and go on with tailwind, just go anywhere the wind blows, sleep where you stop and no need for any coming back. to get home just wait until the wind turns and pause in between, in the end you'l be gone far and home again without motor aids and only tailwind
You've got to be careful though - don't try to do this with one of those Chinese knock-off tailwinds. Make sure your tailwind is from a reputable manufacturer that sponsors a TdF team (or charges $400 for a gear shifter). Personally, I find headwinds much better; there's far less cooling with a tailwind. Cynics say that's because I ride on a Wahoo KickR.
The cheapest upgrade I could do would be to stop eating so much freakin food, and stop drinking so much beer. Instant weight savings, more aero. No TT helmet is going to overcome the fact that I have the same body aero profile as a cement lorry.
'If you saw someone wearing a tt helmet on a road bike...' '...you'd be in richmond park' that is the most relatable thing I've ever heard. Well said Rob.
As a triathlete this is one of my favorite GCN videos. I always thought my next upgrade would be a tribke, but now I'm considering other, cheaper options.
One day I forced myself to ride in the aero hoods position & it cut time from my normal training ride. It was very hard to stay down for the whole ride, but very worth it, it feels faster & the Strava results spoke for themselves.
It might have been because you were putting more effort into ride since you already had a specific outcome in mind. What was your speed and power output on that ride? Were you going faster with less power?
100% correct. I was thinking of putting money into an aero bike, then watched this video. Got a set of clip on aero bars instead for 59.- and easily boosted my speed at FTHR by 4km/h
After watching this video, got myself some tribars (good carbon tribars for only USD 40). They are sooo good. Tackling headwind is just so much easier. Yes they took about 2-3 weeks go get used to the intense aero position. Another big advantage is that even on long endurance rides, you can rest your elbows on the bars to help with the fatigue
I used to work in Aerodynamics, and finally a video that sets the record straight! So many people just jump at the chance to buy an 'Aero' bike but expensive bike doesn't always mean big gains. We used to test cycling helmets and shoes, there were some other projects and my biggest surprise was the gains made with different skin suit fabric types. Buy a comfortable bike and get the cheap gains first!
A 20 pound gravel bike with 40c tires is about as roadie as I get, but this types video was pretty amazing... I would have guessed aero bike, aero kit, perfect race position would be the difference between a win and a very close second place... had no idea the power savings would be so huge, really helped me follow using lower speeds.
looks like the only thing they didn't do was go high hands w/ the full aero set up. They showed earlier that the 'mantis' position could be faster. Wish they'd done that on the TT bike also.
I would really like to see a kit comparison. * Full TT, helmet an skin suit * Normal roadie with lycra and somewhat aero helmet * "MTB-kitted". Looser fitting but cycling specific clotes, MTB-helmet * "Casual". Regular shorts, maybe a flannel shirt, or loose fitting wind jacket and so on :) I wanna know if it's worth going lycra for the gravel/bikepacking rides. :)
Great testing! I wish some other combinations were made: Tri bar vertical + TT helmet Tri bar vertical + TT helmet + Skinsuit These testings would give a more real comparison of the TT bike.
Deep section wheels help when you're heading into the wind but the problem is they act like sails with cross winds so if you're riding in an area that tends to be gusty they may end up being more trouble than they are worth. Kudos on unbiased review and above all recommending that the best things in life are FREE.
Absolutely 👍 brilliant ❣️. I love how comprehensive your testing was. Been working on my TT position and aerodynamics, but can't afford the deep section wheels. But, by closing in the vents on my Bolle One helmet, I essentially increased my average speed from 20.2 to 21.3mph (32.5kmph to 34.3kmph) for 20 miles (32km)!!
Great video! It would be nice to see something like this with more entry-level equipment, where the base-level doesn't cost more than the sum of everything that i own :)
Pick up some used aero bars man, people give them away for next to nothing half of the time and they're insanely fun/fast for how much they cost. Apart from tires/tubes, they're absolutely my favorite upgrade.
I have a lemond washoe steel frame and a carbon DeBernardi Modena. When I put the 58mm deep wheels on the dB, it doesn't seem to have the same straight line benefit that I get from putting those wheels on the steel frame. And it weighs a ton when I do it, no less. Going to have to dedicate some time to tracking my speed and time over the same course using both, and also with my tub wheels, which make the carbon frame ride like a dream.
I would like to see a comparison in watt savings over different body types, from ultra skinny, average, muscular all the way to chubby, using the same bike and setup. Because all the wind tunnel tests one can find online represent only a small minority of the people watching, I'm safe to say. Keep up the good work!
well you can expect that the skinny ones will be the most aero with the smallest frontal area and the chubby ones to be the slowest with the largest frontal area. When you talk about tall, short, skinny, muscular, the problem is that the different body types will produce different wattage so it wouldn't make much difference. The taller people will have more drag but they will produce more watts. The smaller people will have less drag but less watts, so they equate to about the same speed. One thing that you can tell is that people with narrow shoulders will be faster, since it won't make any difference for wattage and will definitely make them more aero.
@@albr4 Your theory is a good one, but a lot of things can be counterintuitive. Remember the video Ollie did with a fake paunch? It resulted in less drag than just the skinny him
Great video guys and great to see the comparisons! We often hear claims about aero gains this and that, but it is good to realize your position on the bike and some inexpensive aero bars can get you most of the way there!
Why, none of these tests can be reproduced in “real world” conditions and this level of testing provides, at best, useful data to convince cyclists to spend money on things they don’t need
Dover Ben I think one of the main conclusions is that the two things most people spend lots of money on (aero frames and deep section wheels) are much more expensive per W saved then helmets and clothing.
@@freewheels7544 Mr. Ollie is trying to beat the Merckx's hour record (which is about 49km/h). I think the data collected (at least) at 50km/h would have been even more valuable for him - and more illustrative for us as well.
@@phoenixrerising that's right. And I think this would be the most critical answer, once there's a lot of people adopting the praying mantis position on their triathlon bikes.
that's right. And I think this would be the most critical answer, once there's a lot of people adopting the praying mantis position on their triathlon bikes.
one of Graeme Obree's early tricks was to turn normal drop bars upside down , fit bmx brake leavers and get into a ski tuck position. The same position he used to break the hour record.
Legend of a man. UCI arbitrarily banned the position, and (possibly at the same time?) Introduced the linear dimensional control to set the horizontal position of the saddle when an angular specification would be less inappropriate. They just wanted him to look like everyone else on his bike. I think they requested "daylight between hands and shoulders", he came back pretty well immediately with the superman position. What a man!
It's not about individual pieces. Each aero change will have an effect on other aero pieces. Aero-wheels will change how air moves over the crankset and drivechain. Tribars will change your position and therefore change how your helmet affects drag. Aerodynamics are incredibly intricate and changing one aspect will effect others.
@@vadlme It's in the realm of 10-15 watts at low yaw at 45kmh(read: without sailing effect). Less than a lot of other things, but still significant gains.
@@samuelmundula2216 yeah he has the defnitive aero wheel comparison chart, its shame GCN didn't have any proper 60-80mm deep section wheels to compare, you don't get much benefit from 50mm wheels or whatever they used to 25-30mm ones they tested.
@@samuelmundula2216 Yep. I reguarly check Hambini's charts. Just a shame he doesn't have more wheels available for testing. I've got a splendid offer for the new Cadex wheels for what is equivalent to 2000USD, but honestly they're only 26mm outer width with 22.5 inner width for a 65deep and a super slim 23 outer with 19.4inner for a 42 mid depth. Hunt just released their 35 outers optimised for 28s. Would have 23s on the Cadex wheels which would balloon to be very close to the outer width. Cadex wheels obviously lighter and probably more responsive, so yeah… question of how good that rim/tyre interface will be. PS: hold out on buying Cadex Wheels. The RRP is going down down down for 2020.
Just about invested in expensive wheels and tubeless tires….looks like I need to work on my position first! Got the helmet already will look for the TT bars for the flats here in Texas…!
Interesting stuff guys. Enjoying this hour record series. Rob is awesome. Can we see more of his expertise on the show and maybe more of his stories too? A wealth of info. Cheers.
This test is very very useful for average rider. Seen a lot of tests like that but this is one of the best I've seen. Great job guys. More of things like that. 😉 👍 Saluti Salvatore 🤓
@SEAL CYCLE That seems like it could be the case, but considering dimples on some surfaces improve aerodynamics I'd still like to confirm what we both suspect. It would also be interesting to know by how much.
One of the best ways to reduce rolling resistance for free is to ride on the white strips marking the edge of the road. Be safe of the cateyes but that white line is polished smooth and super fast. Exercise caution. Might be illegal or unsafe so I hold no responsibility but its just that extra edge you might need.
Same reason I try to ride the wheel tracks, especially on chip seal and rough pavement. Vehicles smooth down the wheel tracks, saves us a little energy or gets a little more speed for the same energy.
Great informative video. I would particularly like to see some tests on the yaw angles of different section rims (from box to disc wheels) and their watt savings.
That makes sense why my results in road races haven't changed after buying deep section carbon wheels compared with my old alloy box section rims. I do know that I really need to work on my flexibility and position though, as I ride way too upright.
I would love to see Ollie testing FLAT ARMS vs PRAYING MANTIS, with: the TT bike, aero lid and skin suit. I am sure he himself is interested in the difference since his extensions are currently flat....as are mine.
It was finally a scientific video of yours and I really enjoyed it, though I'm into XC. I think I noticed that in the final setup the tirbars were not in that praying mantis position and it could be interesting to see the difference. I wish you could next time compare it with the full setup, like TT wheels, shoe covers, just everything that can make you more aero etc.. Good job on this one!
Great video! The deep section rim test is unhelpful not only for the reasons given in the video, the most significant improvement is provided by the shorter spoke length whisking the air when riding. I'm pretty sure Rob used to be just a couple of years younger than me in our old Palmer Park days, but I'm clearly a good 15 years older now.... let's have a video devoted to whatever portrait he keeps in his loft?
Waiting to see the comparison of older triathlon bikes such as cannondale slice or cervelo p3 from 2010 era and new super bikes in the wind tunnel and real world fine trial test to see if nee bikes are actually faster and by how much.
Aero shoecovers were said to give the most bang for your bucks in the past. And what about the difference between shoes with velcrostraps vs Boa-dials?
Bike radar did this The video says 6-8 watts savings with aero handlebars at 45km/hr. No bar tape = 1.7 watts savings. th-cam.com/video/s9QA1rRXzV0/w-d-xo.html
Good video, but you have done this before, can we take it a stage further, maybe look at if you can get a road bike as fast as a standard TT bike, i.e. rear disc wheel cover, aero bottles in the V, Tri bars etc. This would be useful as not having to buy an expensive tt bike would be great?
What I found most interesting about this is that certain upgrades negated the benefits of other things. TT Helmet in Hoods at 45 = 116w Skin Suit at 45 = 50w TT Bike at 45 = 130w Full Set up TT Helmet + Skin Suit + TT Bike in theory should have saved 296w but it only saved 167w which means there is 129 missing watts. Would have been interesting to see what caused this drastic loss. TT Fit maybe making the TT Helmet less effective?
I would like to see the difference between 40 cm wide bars and 38cm bars in both the base position and bent arms. The other thing that I find odd is that nobody has thought of filling the space behind the helmet. i.e. a small discrete hump sown in to the jersey. I suspect it needn't be huge. And I think for a laugh, we could try sowing in some padding into the socks to get an aero shape. I think I need a GCN skin suit, they look rather nice.
The big problem with aero bars is one must adapt to them. I've had balance problems in my old age, and I can't use aero bars. However, I can strap on an aero helmet, a skinsuit, and aero wheels and ride without any changes or adaptation needed.
what are the effect of the rider rpm on the overall aero? e.g. 80/90/100/110 rpm. This is something you did not mentioned as boundary conditions for the video too.
Good video, well done Mate. I was going to buy a triathlon bike but now I think I will stick with my road TCR advanced with aero bars and carbon wheels I already have those but will add the aero helmet and stay low more often when riding and racing. Does riding with no shirt on create more drag or less?
The thing about wheels is you get the savings no matter what position you ride in. Its a constant saving unlike the ones that rely on boby shape, position etc. One thing with the mantis position being the most aero why didn't you finish with all the other gains in that position?
What about just the simple comparison of a traditional, non-aero bike (say, 10yrs old) vs a newer, aero road bike? Lots of people are considering what to buy when they purchase a new bike, and this decision of going aero frameset or not is a difficult one.
My hybrid bike tyres had tiny rubber sticks about 5 to 7 mm in length sticking out the side all over the sides of both tyres. With a little box cutter I pulled on the rubber sticks and cut them off. Must have bern 30 to 40 on each tyre. The bike appeared to be easier to ride after cutting them off.
I've calculated riding in a vortex induced vacuum reduces drag by 443 Watts. If this is coupled with high intensity differential pressure reduction across the vortex, I gain up to 783W power. So if I only cycle on the edge of the eye of a hurricane, I can go MUCH faster. So fast, in fact, that I might start flying. I want to see that tested in a wind tunnel.
Would love to see a video about the aerodynamics of having empty water bottle cages vs keeping water bottles in them, even when empty, for aero gains. Should we keep all 3 bottle cages on all the time, or only put the 3rd one (closest to the front wheel, under the frame) on for long rides? bike with no cages, bike with 2 or 3 cages empty vs full. :)
Informative video but there was room for so much more... I would be really interested in a sequel... see other comments for plenty of examples of other tests that should have been included in this video.
Another excellent video! One thing I'd say about wheels, other than yaw testing, is the gains are literally bolt on. Like the helmet its spend and go for gains. Position is irrelevant to those gains so they feel good. Position is hard to notice as you are putting out the same effort with more distress so it feels like your trying harder. My 2 cents. (or 2 p?)
When Sydney Cam designs the Spitfire ... it is legend that he always said , it looks good or not. he was obsessed in a fast looking airplane. Same is here.
Can you look at riding the drops on the bars since they talked about closing the shoulders I wonder how that would effect as it lowers body but opens it back up
Deeper aero wheels show gains at higher yaw which is much more common in real riding. Straight on isn't a fair measurement. They make a difference but aren't cheap. Since they can be switched from bike to bike and combined with disc brakes so they don't wear out, they are a decent investment.
Praying mantis aero bar position is NOT UCI permitted. Top of the grips (including shifters) can be no more than 10cm above the center of the arm pads, and the arm pads can be inclined no more than 15 degrees (setup in the video looks more ~20cm and ~30 degrees. I'd like to know if there's any benefit to inclining the bars to the UCI limit, rather than forearm level position. Not being allowed to get your hands in front of your face might negate any aero advantage of the angle, and could possibly make it worse... if that's correct, it would be best to setup for the most comfortable position within rule limits.
Just a thought… but Ollie might be faster(not necessarily drag-wise) if he got a bit up to help with those drifting knees at the top of the stroke(external hip rotation is a common symptom of inadequate hip flexor RoM relative to trunk position) to eke out a few watts of pedaling efficiency and then(maybe) also some watts in being able to tuck his head better and keep the tail of his helmet closer to the back and shoulders.
riding in the drops you have your arms straight providing more area for catching the wind. you come further down so it's faster than upright on the hoods but arms bent is fastest on the road bike without tri bars. you still need the drops for sprinting though
Please test and discuss the most aero way to carry ones laptop on a bike. :-) (It is something we tend to need to bring but is hard to transport in an aero way.)
Fantastic video! I've been trying so hard to work on my position. Been cycling a few months and am very jealous of all the fancy bikes I see that people have. Glad to see that working on aero positioning can have such a dramatic difference, even on a currently slim budget! Thanks chaps
To this date, still one of the best GCN videos ever made. No intentional product endorsements, no biased opinions, just data with solid methodology. Not to mention, Ollie is my favorite presenter since Matt. Then again, my favorite Top Gear presenter was James May ("Captain Slow"), if that says anything about my preferences.
Agree. Very good. I was looking for something that compared a full on TT vs an optimized aeroroad bike with clip on position and this was perfect. It makes me not want to spend the cash on a new TT bike.
I save about 50 watts by only riding with a tailwind. When I have a headwind, I simply turn around and pedal backwards, meaning that the wind is always behind me.
But mostly we need to get back to the point of starting where we park our car or for example to came back to home.. so I mean that at the first the wind will be in my back but later on I have to face it when u r already exhausted
what a power move. I'mma try this next time I'm out.
only if you're a carist, a cyclist can ride tailwinds and use trains headwinds.
1904 TDF athletes did use trains to get there faster, some used cars,it was considered cheating.
but no need: start your next tour with Tailwind and go on with tailwind, just go anywhere the wind blows, sleep where you stop and no need for any coming back. to get home just wait until the wind turns and pause in between, in the end you'l be gone far and home again without motor aids and only tailwind
I'm weak so any headwind slows me down 10kph
You've got to be careful though - don't try to do this with one of those Chinese knock-off tailwinds. Make sure your tailwind is from a reputable manufacturer that sponsors a TdF team (or charges $400 for a gear shifter).
Personally, I find headwinds much better; there's far less cooling with a tailwind.
Cynics say that's because I ride on a Wahoo KickR.
The cheapest upgrade I could do would be to stop eating so much freakin food, and stop drinking so much beer. Instant weight savings, more aero. No TT helmet is going to overcome the fact that I have the same body aero profile as a cement lorry.
I like to complain about the cost of latex tubes and aero clothing while I waste about $150/week on booze and terrible junk food.
There's always room for beer. That's the best reason to ride. A 1000 calorie ride is good for over 6 beers. Cheers
1 lb off your bike is more beneficial than 1 lb off your body.
I just plan my route and make it so that the wind is always behind me 😂
Certainly seems like a high cost upgrade!
'If you saw someone wearing a tt helmet on a road bike...'
'...you'd be in richmond park' that is the most relatable thing I've ever heard. Well said Rob.
Resident. Can confirm.
Edward Coupe 👌
4 years of near daily riding around Richmond park, never saw that.......
@@fastasasloth maybe your TT helmet was obscuring your vision?😂😂😂
Neil Partridge 😅
As a triathlete this is one of my favorite GCN videos. I always thought my next upgrade would be a tribke, but now I'm considering other, cheaper options.
One day I forced myself to ride in the aero hoods position & it cut time from my normal training ride. It was very hard to stay down for the whole ride, but very worth it, it feels faster & the Strava results spoke for themselves.
It might have been because you were putting more effort into ride since you already had a specific outcome in mind. What was your speed and power output on that ride? Were you going faster with less power?
maybe this video is the one with highest value about aero on internet! Thank you! Good Luck!
Thanks for watching!
i'll watch that vid every time i think i need a new bike.
Yep--it's a fantastic reality check.
@@climberevan 7
@@climberevan 6
Boooooo
100% correct. I was thinking of putting money into an aero bike, then watched this video. Got a set of clip on aero bars instead for 59.- and easily boosted my speed at FTHR by 4km/h
After watching this video, got myself some tribars (good carbon tribars for only USD 40). They are sooo good. Tackling headwind is just so much easier. Yes they took about 2-3 weeks go get used to the intense aero position. Another big advantage is that even on long endurance rides, you can rest your elbows on the bars to help with the fatigue
I used to work in Aerodynamics, and finally a video that sets the record straight! So many people just jump at the chance to buy an 'Aero' bike but expensive bike doesn't always mean big gains.
We used to test cycling helmets and shoes, there were some other projects and my biggest surprise was the gains made with different skin suit fabric types. Buy a comfortable bike and get the cheap gains first!
Now if only we could buy one of those gcn skinsuits!
@@dsdf_fdp1858 thanks, didn't know that.
It is great to see GCN applying Fournel's theorem: To look good is to already go fast.
A 20 pound gravel bike with 40c tires is about as roadie as I get, but this types video was pretty amazing... I would have guessed aero bike, aero kit, perfect race position would be the difference between a win and a very close second place... had no idea the power savings would be so huge, really helped me follow using lower speeds.
looks like the only thing they didn't do was go high hands w/ the full aero set up. They showed earlier that the 'mantis' position could be faster. Wish they'd done that on the TT bike also.
I would really like to see a kit comparison.
* Full TT, helmet an skin suit
* Normal roadie with lycra and somewhat aero helmet
* "MTB-kitted". Looser fitting but cycling specific clotes, MTB-helmet
* "Casual". Regular shorts, maybe a flannel shirt, or loose fitting wind jacket and so on :)
I wanna know if it's worth going lycra for the gravel/bikepacking rides. :)
Ollie's TT position is a thing of beauty
Is it? I thought it looked super stretched out (arm angle is super wide) but I am just starting to get into TTs soooo
@@MTMKillah borrowed the tt bike. from mark threlfall!
saddle too high, seesaw pelvis
Great testing! I wish some other combinations were made:
Tri bar vertical + TT helmet
Tri bar vertical + TT helmet + Skinsuit
These testings would give a more real comparison of the TT bike.
Deep section wheels help when you're heading into the wind but the problem is they act like sails with cross winds so if you're riding in an area that tends to be gusty they may end up being more trouble than they are worth. Kudos on unbiased review and above all recommending that the best things in life are FREE.
Absolutely 👍 brilliant ❣️. I love how comprehensive your testing was. Been working on my TT position and aerodynamics, but can't afford the deep section wheels. But, by closing in the vents on my Bolle One helmet, I essentially increased my average speed from 20.2 to 21.3mph (32.5kmph to 34.3kmph) for 20 miles (32km)!!
It’s good to see an optimized clip on position is not much slower than a full on a TT bike.
Great video! It would be nice to see something like this with more entry-level equipment, where the base-level doesn't cost more than the sum of everything that i own :)
Good suggestion, whenever we're allowed back out to visit wind tunnels this is definitely something we'd like to test!
Pick up some used aero bars man, people give them away for next to nothing half of the time and they're insanely fun/fast for how much they cost. Apart from tires/tubes, they're absolutely my favorite upgrade.
I wish you’d test wheels relative to stock wheels vs high quality. The difference is massive
Rob for GCN Tech President
I have a lemond washoe steel frame and a carbon DeBernardi Modena. When I put the 58mm deep wheels on the dB, it doesn't seem to have the same straight line benefit that I get from putting those wheels on the steel frame. And it weighs a ton when I do it, no less. Going to have to dedicate some time to tracking my speed and time over the same course using both, and also with my tub wheels, which make the carbon frame ride like a dream.
I would like to see a comparison in watt savings over different body types, from ultra skinny, average, muscular all the way to chubby, using the same bike and setup. Because all the wind tunnel tests one can find online represent only a small minority of the people watching, I'm safe to say. Keep up the good work!
I volunteer to be the chubby one.
well you can expect that the skinny ones will be the most aero with the smallest frontal area and the chubby ones to be the slowest with the largest frontal area. When you talk about tall, short, skinny, muscular, the problem is that the different body types will produce different wattage so it wouldn't make much difference.
The taller people will have more drag but they will produce more watts. The smaller people will have less drag but less watts, so they equate to about the same speed. One thing that you can tell is that people with narrow shoulders will be faster, since it won't make any difference for wattage and will definitely make them more aero.
@@albr4 Your theory is a good one, but a lot of things can be counterintuitive. Remember the video Ollie did with a fake paunch? It resulted in less drag than just the skinny him
@@dryphos but how much does the fake paunch weigh? and people don't usually have skinny body and then big belly like that.
@@albr4 more of a reason to test it on real people of different body types
Great video guys and great to see the comparisons! We often hear claims about aero gains this and that, but it is good to realize your position on the bike and some inexpensive aero bars can get you most of the way there!
Please, can you publish a table with all your findings, maybe ordered in watts saved?
Have just been calculating the Wattage for 16, 19, 21, and these numbers compare favorably with a Power-Meter Bike.
Why, none of these tests can be reproduced in “real world” conditions and this level of testing provides, at best, useful data to convince cyclists to spend money on things they don’t need
Dover Ben I think one of the main conclusions is that the two things most people spend lots of money on (aero frames and deep section wheels) are much more expensive per W saved then helmets and clothing.
Ollie tryng to beat the hour record is my favorite show by now on.
That's why expected he would test the stuff at 50km/h.
@@PrzemyslawSliwinski i'm not sure i understood what you said
@@freewheels7544 Mr. Ollie is trying to beat the Merckx's hour record (which is about 49km/h). I think the data collected (at least) at 50km/h would have been even more valuable for him - and more illustrative for us as well.
@@PrzemyslawSliwinski good point
@@PrzemyslawSliwinski But kudos to them for doing the tests that are most relevant to us, the general public!
wish they tested the pramantis posistion on the TT bike
FYI: it's called "praying mantis" cause of the way this insect looks.
@@phoenixrerising that's right. And I think this would be the most critical answer, once there's a lot of people adopting the praying mantis position on their triathlon bikes.
that's right. And I think this would be the most critical answer, once there's a lot of people adopting the praying mantis position on their triathlon bikes.
Praying mantis with trispoke front, disk rear, aero socks / shoe covers
12:25 'You are the biggest obstacle'. I've been told that all my life. :)
one of Graeme Obree's early tricks was to turn normal drop bars upside down , fit bmx brake leavers and get into a ski tuck position. The same position he used to break the hour record.
Legend of a man. UCI arbitrarily banned the position, and (possibly at the same time?) Introduced the linear dimensional control to set the horizontal position of the saddle when an angular specification would be less inappropriate. They just wanted him to look like everyone else on his bike. I think they requested "daylight between hands and shoulders", he came back pretty well immediately with the superman position. What a man!
It's not about individual pieces. Each aero change will have an effect on other aero pieces. Aero-wheels will change how air moves over the crankset and drivechain. Tribars will change your position and therefore change how your helmet affects drag.
Aerodynamics are incredibly intricate and changing one aspect will effect others.
O yes, please test deep section wheels versus standard rims at different yaw angles.
they won’t do it because deep section wheels will stop selling 😆
@@vadlme It's in the realm of 10-15 watts at low yaw at 45kmh(read: without sailing effect). Less than a lot of other things, but still significant gains.
Hambini has extensive testing on this - might be worth checking out.
@@samuelmundula2216 yeah he has the defnitive aero wheel comparison chart, its shame GCN didn't have any proper 60-80mm deep section wheels to compare, you don't get much benefit from 50mm wheels or whatever they used to 25-30mm ones they tested.
@@samuelmundula2216 Yep. I reguarly check Hambini's charts. Just a shame he doesn't have more wheels available for testing. I've got a splendid offer for the new Cadex wheels for what is equivalent to 2000USD, but honestly they're only 26mm outer width with 22.5 inner width for a 65deep and a super slim 23 outer with 19.4inner for a 42 mid depth. Hunt just released their 35 outers optimised for 28s. Would have 23s on the Cadex wheels which would balloon to be very close to the outer width. Cadex wheels obviously lighter and probably more responsive, so yeah… question of how good that rim/tyre interface will be. PS: hold out on buying Cadex Wheels. The RRP is going down down down for 2020.
Just about invested in expensive wheels and tubeless tires….looks like I need to work on my position first! Got the helmet already will look for the TT bars for the flats here in Texas…!
Interesting stuff guys. Enjoying this hour record series. Rob is awesome. Can we see more of his expertise on the show and maybe more of his stories too? A wealth of info. Cheers.
This test is very very useful for average rider.
Seen a lot of tests like that but this is one of the best I've seen.
Great job guys.
More of things like that. 😉 👍
Saluti Salvatore 🤓
Great video, thank you so much for it. Please consider also to test bottle type and position next time.
Great video, but What about over socks or shoe covers, and riding on the hoods versus riding on the drops?
Also, DeFeet aero socks and Bont Zero + shoes.
Also, is 80rpm on 100rpm more aero? and by how much?
@SEAL CYCLE That seems like it could be the case, but considering dimples on some surfaces improve aerodynamics I'd still like to confirm what we both suspect. It would also be interesting to know by how much.
One of the best ways to reduce rolling resistance for free is to ride on the white strips marking the edge of the road. Be safe of the cateyes but that white line is polished smooth and super fast. Exercise caution. Might be illegal or unsafe so I hold no responsibility but its just that extra edge you might need.
Same reason I try to ride the wheel tracks, especially on chip seal and rough pavement. Vehicles smooth down the wheel tracks, saves us a little energy or gets a little more speed for the same energy.
You utter flog. Yep, keep doing this, especially during winter.
Please don’t breed
@@chinboy66 My frenulum has been pressured so much, I think all my swimmers in there are dead.
Great informative video. I would particularly like to see some tests on the yaw angles of different section rims (from box to disc wheels) and their watt savings.
That makes sense why my results in road races haven't changed after buying deep section carbon wheels compared with my old alloy box section rims. I do know that I really need to work on my flexibility and position though, as I ride way too upright.
Some data from the drops would be nice.
Not as efficient as on the hoods with bend elbows.
th-cam.com/video/u3-55E8zOBs/w-d-xo.html
@@MrAndrewjdavis or long af stem and toptube with a tilted saddle and the drops
I would love to see Ollie testing FLAT ARMS vs PRAYING MANTIS, with: the TT bike, aero lid and skin suit. I am sure he himself is interested in the difference since his extensions are currently flat....as are mine.
A disadvantage of deeper wheels during covid is obtaining long enough stem lengths consistently and will cost more based on demand.
Loved the Crystal Maze reference
Absolutely the most valuable info I’ve ever seen on GCN! Thank you.
Judy Carlsen give zero useful real world data.....
Did u guys test angled up aero bars on the TT frame ??
yes would be interesting
or! add tri bars on top of the aero bars.... double bubble. maybe also wear 2 skinsuits at onces for even more difference.
@@mralistair737 How about strapping a set of deep section wheels to your back to save even more?
It was finally a scientific video of yours and I really enjoyed it, though I'm into XC. I think I noticed that in the final setup the tirbars were not in that praying mantis position and it could be interesting to see the difference. I wish you could next time compare it with the full setup, like TT wheels, shoe covers, just everything that can make you more aero etc.. Good job on this one!
Great video! The deep section rim test is unhelpful not only for the reasons given in the video, the most significant improvement is provided by the shorter spoke length whisking the air when riding. I'm pretty sure Rob used to be just a couple of years younger than me in our old Palmer Park days, but I'm clearly a good 15 years older now.... let's have a video devoted to whatever portrait he keeps in his loft?
On my recumbent I'm basically in a permanent TT position - very low frontal area. Good bang for the buck indeed!
LOL at the ‘money saved per watt’ thing.
while ridding a $10k bike in the video :)
Yes, but I don't think this was aimed at people riding 10k bikes! This video was perfect.
Great test, guys! Great work Ollie, no complaints from you (at least on camera) for all that work! Lots of great take aways!
The best tips so far I watched from GCN, and this one rey works! Thanks!
Waiting to see the comparison of older triathlon bikes such as cannondale slice or cervelo p3 from 2010 era and new super bikes in the wind tunnel and real world fine trial test to see if nee bikes are actually faster and by how much.
Aero shoecovers were said to give the most bang for your bucks in the past. And what about the difference between shoes with velcrostraps vs Boa-dials?
Guido Spanoghe or my old school perfed leather lace ups
I think this might be the best bike upgrade video I ever saw
Although I don't /won't use the max aero eqmnt the saving of power from using them is surprisingly impressive.
It could be nice to see the difference between classic round bars and more aero handlebars as they are a relatively big part of your frontal area.
Bike radar did this The video says 6-8 watts savings with aero handlebars at 45km/hr. No bar tape = 1.7 watts savings. th-cam.com/video/s9QA1rRXzV0/w-d-xo.html
@@pedalpowercycling I will save the no-bar-tape for the electric bike of the future. Gotta take care of numero uno 1st!
Good video, but you have done this before, can we take it a stage further, maybe look at if you can get a road bike as fast as a standard TT bike, i.e. rear disc wheel cover, aero bottles in the V, Tri bars etc. This would be useful as not having to buy an expensive tt bike would be great?
What I found most interesting about this is that certain upgrades negated the benefits of other things.
TT Helmet in Hoods at 45 = 116w
Skin Suit at 45 = 50w
TT Bike at 45 = 130w
Full Set up TT Helmet + Skin Suit + TT Bike in theory should have saved 296w but it only saved 167w which means there is 129 missing watts. Would have been interesting to see what caused this drastic loss. TT Fit maybe making the TT Helmet less effective?
I would like to see the difference between 40 cm wide bars and 38cm bars in both the base position and bent arms. The other thing that I find odd is that nobody has thought of filling the space behind the helmet. i.e. a small discrete hump sown in to the jersey. I suspect it needn't be huge. And I think for a laugh, we could try sowing in some padding into the socks to get an aero shape. I think I need a GCN skin suit, they look rather nice.
The big problem with aero bars is one must adapt to them. I've had balance problems in my old age, and I can't use aero bars. However, I can strap on an aero helmet, a skinsuit, and aero wheels and ride without any changes or adaptation needed.
great video, I got to this intuitively through years of riding (as far as position) and now I see my riding form verified.
what are the effect of the rider rpm on the overall aero? e.g. 80/90/100/110 rpm. This is something you did not mentioned as boundary conditions for the video too.
Good video, well done Mate. I was going to buy a triathlon bike but now I think I will stick with my road TCR advanced with aero bars and carbon wheels I already have those but will add the aero helmet and stay low more often when riding and racing. Does riding with no shirt on create more drag or less?
The thing about wheels is you get the savings no matter what position you ride in. Its a constant saving unlike the ones that rely on boby shape, position etc. One thing with the mantis position being the most aero why didn't you finish with all the other gains in that position?
Yup, and your wallet is soooooo much lighter toooo.... Wonder how many watts u save there?🤣
I’ve adapted my riding to the aero hoods position and my speeds reflect the change. I can hold the position indefinitely now.
How long did it take?
@@jackwright3098 me personally about a week of daily riding and reminding myself not to sit straight. The watts saved is noticeable.
These two have such beautiful chemistry, and physics. 😁
best aero measurement video ive seen. thanks.
What about just the simple comparison of a traditional, non-aero bike (say, 10yrs old) vs a newer, aero road bike? Lots of people are considering what to buy when they purchase a new bike, and this decision of going aero frameset or not is a difficult one.
My hybrid bike tyres had tiny rubber sticks about 5 to 7 mm in length sticking out the side all over the sides of both tyres. With a little box cutter I pulled on the rubber sticks and cut them off. Must have bern 30 to 40 on each tyre. The bike appeared to be easier to ride after cutting them off.
Great video!!!
What about aero bike with vertical aero bars?
platinum paint , and left handed bent wheels for fast cornering on the velodrome track, just like short track speed skating blades
I've calculated riding in a vortex induced vacuum reduces drag by 443 Watts. If this is coupled with high intensity differential pressure reduction across the vortex, I gain up to 783W power. So if I only cycle on the edge of the eye of a hurricane, I can go MUCH faster. So fast, in fact, that I might start flying. I want to see that tested in a wind tunnel.
Would love to see a video about the aerodynamics of having empty water bottle cages vs keeping water bottles in them, even when empty, for aero gains. Should we keep all 3 bottle cages on all the time, or only put the 3rd one (closest to the front wheel, under the frame) on for long rides? bike with no cages, bike with 2 or 3 cages empty vs full. :)
Informative video but there was room for so much more... I would be really interested in a sequel... see other comments for plenty of examples of other tests that should have been included in this video.
Another excellent video! One thing I'd say about wheels, other than yaw testing, is the gains are literally bolt on. Like the helmet its spend and go for gains. Position is irrelevant to those gains so they feel good. Position is hard to notice as you are putting out the same effort with more distress so it feels like your trying harder. My 2 cents. (or 2 p?)
Loving the tech talk and how you explain things. Fantastic stuff. I'm a cyclist and | live in the Pennines.
Brilliant stuff guys, loved it.
I love it. If you look good in the shop window... proper advice 😀
Sunglasses in the wind tunnel...do they save some watts, or is the 'campenaert' style quicker?
Wo Strick well I think your eyes will become really teary because of the wind. It would look like he is crying otherwise
This really is a fine and educational episode ,easily one of the best for directing your aero gain purchases in the right direction.
When Sydney Cam designs the Spitfire ... it is legend that he always said , it looks good or not. he was obsessed in a fast looking airplane. Same is here.
I need you guus testing a recumbent bike in the windtunnel
What about overshoes?
Can you look at riding the drops on the bars since they talked about closing the shoulders I wonder how that would effect as it lowers body but opens it back up
Which aero road helmet was he using? Seems to be saving more watts than set of aero wheels or aero bike frames for that matter.
Yes same. Would like to know this. Tempted to go to town with the duck tape on mine
Deeper aero wheels show gains at higher yaw which is much more common in real riding. Straight on isn't a fair measurement. They make a difference but aren't cheap. Since they can be switched from bike to bike and combined with disc brakes so they don't wear out, they are a decent investment.
To thumbs-up mate. the most informational show ever.
Praying mantis aero bar position is NOT UCI permitted. Top of the grips (including shifters) can be no more than 10cm above the center of the arm pads, and the arm pads can be inclined no more than 15 degrees (setup in the video looks more ~20cm and ~30 degrees. I'd like to know if there's any benefit to inclining the bars to the UCI limit, rather than forearm level position. Not being allowed to get your hands in front of your face might negate any aero advantage of the angle, and could possibly make it worse... if that's correct, it would be best to setup for the most comfortable position within rule limits.
Just a thought… but Ollie might be faster(not necessarily drag-wise) if he got a bit up to help with those drifting knees at the top of the stroke(external hip rotation is a common symptom of inadequate hip flexor RoM relative to trunk position) to eke out a few watts of pedaling efficiency and then(maybe) also some watts in being able to tuck his head better and keep the tail of his helmet closer to the back and shoulders.
lol
"_We_ are doing all of these experiments..."
- Lets Ollie do all of the riding
"Ollie is absolutely nackered!" "But, lets keep talking longer while he peddles away and wishing we'd shut up so we can get this over with."
these are the type of lame jokes I wish they would stop making...
Great video! What about using the drops? (As opposed to holding the hoods with your little fingers) Seems like nobody rides in the drops anymore...
I also want to know this, we've all got dropped bars, how much difference do they make?
riding in the drops you have your arms straight providing more area for catching the wind. you come further down so it's faster than upright on the hoods but arms bent is fastest on the road bike without tri bars. you still need the drops for sprinting though
I always go to the drops on a twisty decent, I feel I have better control and can get whether grip of the brake levers.
That is "better grip" btw
I wish you'd have measured riding in the drops vs hoods
th-cam.com/video/u3-55E8zOBs/w-d-xo.html
Please test and discuss the most aero way to carry ones laptop on a bike. :-) (It is something we tend to need to bring but is hard to transport in an aero way.)
One of your best videos IMO
More wind tunnel content please!!
Tried telling some club mates about level forearms etc but they didn't care to change, despite spending loads on aero wheels.
Great guys, thanks for taking the subject on another level 👍
Fantastic video! I've been trying so hard to work on my position. Been cycling a few months and am very jealous of all the fancy bikes I see that people have. Glad to see that working on aero positioning can have such a dramatic difference, even on a currently slim budget! Thanks chaps