This is wonderful content! Thanks Francine and welcome back! I have missed the podcast for the past week! A few problems with plugging in and charging: 1. If someone is borrowing your car, you will have to pay for all the charging or give them access to your account to put their credit card info in to have them pay. 2. When renting a car, there is no way to know how expensive it is to charge because the person renting the car doesn't have access to the account. 3. If you sell your car, then you have to update several apps to say that you no longer own that car and you are not going to pay for charging. This is why I never set it up on EvGo.
I rent out several vehicles to friends and people in the area so this is always on my mind. Also when we get to all electric vehicles which I am already partway there, but not renting electric ones yet this is going to have to be dealt with somehow.
I imagine the easiest way to answer 1 and 2 would be user profiles, like we currently have with cars with multiple key fobs (or phones in the case of Tesla, not super familiar with other brands Phone key setups). If I loan my car to someone, I should be able to hand them a Guest key and they can set it up when they get in the car, have that for the duration of their rental, and then just have a button to delete guest account data when you're done with your rental. Or do it via the phone app for the vehicle (a la Tesla). The multiple app thing is a problem right now and I hope the industry gets it figured out. Ideally I'd just want the user data to be on the vehicle, then have the charger communicate to the vehicle to authorize payment and charging. And/or We get something like Ionity in Europe and you can have multiple charger operators operating on the same backend verification/payment system. I don't want to download 12 apps on my phone and set them all up and give them all my payment info in order to charge... If we can get Plug&Charge standardized on all vehicles, set up the car once when you get it, and let the car handle payment and verification on the backend... That would be the most seamless IMHO
Another great guest! New levels of “Nerding-out with Francie.” 👉Very few interviewers could have asked the right questions of a Big Brain like Glen. Well done, You. 👏👍
Why are the credit card readers on dc fast chargers just the least reliable readers on the market?? The credit card terminals on gas pumps have never failed even once in human history, yet I rarely find an EV charger whose credit card terminal works
Just guessing, they are probably as reliable as gas station readers, its just that when gas station readers have issues, some one is fixing it asap, while these unattended parking lot chargers can go months without a qualified human coming buy to check up on them.
@@ultrastoat3298The gas pumps at gas stations are not owned and operated by the gas station (very few do). It is another company that is in charge of repairing and certifying the pump. When a pump goes down the third party has to pay the station owner until the pump is functional again. This has created an environment that incentivizes functioning equipment. There is actually better equipment on a gas pump than on a charging unit.
@@nicholaskolnik6458 hard to imagine that the PoS equipment isn’t coming from the same 2 or 3 manufacturers. The real difference maker is having someone come and fix it when there are issues. Also, some of the issues aren’t hardware related, but rather software related on the backends.
Strange. I've met many gas pump cc readers that don't work. Some that won't read at all. Some equipped with skimmers, to steal credit card info. And quite a few where the "insert card this way" was totally wrong. Talk about obsolete technology!
@@ultrastoat3298 no I'm talking about stations where the reader worked once and then stopped working for months or years, while the same unit 10 feet away still does work
I don't take many road trips requiring public charging, but when I do, I prefer EVGo for this reason; however, "immediately charge" is a stretch. I plug in and wait a minute or two for the charger to connect to my Bolt. Don't know why it takes so long, but it does. I could plug in and walk away, and occasionally I do, but I usually wait for the connection process to complete. I don't want to return from a lunch break only to discover that charging never started. It's still easier than fooling with an app or a credit card, which doesn't avoid the long connection process, but charging is far from immediate. If I find no EVGo when I need to charge, I'll use a ChargePoint RFID card. A quick swipe suffices to start the connection process, and the connection process takes so long that the additional few seconds to swipe is negligible. The RFID card is next to the keyfob that starts my card, so it's always with me, usually on a lanyard around my neck.
I have Plug and Charge with my Lightning, but I don't use it because it can't support the EA and Tesla membership / Subscription discounts. I'm curious if that is an inherent limitation or something that can be resolved down the road?
To me its always been strange that the standard expects manufacturers to become payment processors. I would much rather have chargepoint or evgo handle billing than ford.
Hey Francie - Brian Hall at Fort Collins Kia just emailed me Friday (8/23/24) that they no longer arrange and pay for delivery. I was negotiating for an EV9 and I live in New York. I told him that your podcast still declares free delivery anywhere in the continental US. He said he would contact Kyle and let him know that they don't honor that any more. From his email: "We do not arrange shipping or pay delivery costs at this time. We were running a promotion a number of months ago where we were able to sell EV9's for MSRP and cover shipping costs. Since we are HEAVILY discounting the vehicle we are not able to cover shipping."
48:00 Re: Charging Costs. So glad I have NACS. Not sure how Tesla SC prices compare, but at least they’re 99.9% reliable vs NONE of the CCS ones I’ve ever tried have worked. I guess I don’t feel as cheated from buying the adapter as the majority of non-Tesla owners owners do for their whole cars, as soon as they learn what “charging done right” is like. Whew!
Do subscription programs work with plug and charge? I know that EA has subscriptions that allow you to buy down the rate. Does that only work with the app or a credit card or will it work with plug and charge? I'm a Teala owner so I'm unfamiliar with the world of non Tesla charging.
Have you considered presenting (or do you know of someone who already has presented) a short history of ICE vehicle adoption during the first half of the 1900's? Folks who complain about lack of EV charging infrastructure or the elevated price of EV's v. ICE vehicles might be interested to know that initial adoption of ICE back in the day was similarly impeded by infrastructure issues and the high cost of dependable vehicles. Cries of "get a horse!" are a meme for the early 1900's - as early-adopters struggled with their often unreliable ICE vehicles. Also, the transition from horse-drawn to ICE vehicles had similar implications for putting people out of business when, e.g. stables & other horse-related infrastructure were no longer needed & went out of business. (Thus requiring re-training for new jobs.) Your discussion on this podcast frequently demonstrates impatience with development & roll-out of charging infrastructure and industry standardization. (...and of course we're ALL frustrated with the slow pace of battery development...just sayin'). So that's my idea for a podcast that could put the EV-ecosystem roll out into perspective. Thanks for your videos!
My understanding is that, back around 1900, gasoline was originally used as a cleaning solvent, and sold in drug stores, which meant that, even without formal gas stations, you could buy cans of the stuff, carry it out to the car using your own muscle power, and dump it in the tank using gravity. And, if you needed to drive further than the car could go on one tank of gas, you could carry additional fuel containers in the trunk, and transfer the fuel from the portable containers into the main fuel tank on the side of the road, as needed. While these kludges were not nearly as convenient as a modern gas station, they did work well enough to get enough early adopters of gasoline-powered cars that fueling services started developing as a business. At first, it was a matter of store employees carrying the fuel out from the store and pouring into the tank for you, eventually modern gas pumps took over. But, the point is, it was the initial ability to walk into a retail store, buy a substance that was already on sale because it was used for other things, and pour it into your car yourself, that was sufficient to get enough people using the technology to motivate the business investment to get it from niche to mainstream. Of course, the buy-the-fuel-and-pour-it-in-yourself model does not work for EVs, as it has extremely high requirements on both energy density and energy transfer times in order to be viable. Instead, EVs took advantage of a completely different early adopter story, taking advantage of the fact that most cars sit all night parked at their owner's home, and that every home already has electricity delivered into it, so it was just a matter of plugging the car into an outlet at home and being done with it. While, of course, this model does not work for all people or all trips, it did work for enough people and enough trips to spark hopefully enough investment into proper public charging infrastructure, given enough time, to make the remaining use cases viable. Just like, in the early gasoline days, not everybody had the physical strength to carry fuel containers from the store out to their car, not everybody has a house with an outlet that an EV can plug into. But, again, a technology's early adoption story doesn't need to work for everyone; it just needs to work for enough people to spark investments into the technology until businesses spring up to make it work for the rest. This, in a nutshell, is a big reason why I have always been so skeptical of hydrogen as a transportation fuel. Gasoline had its early adopter story. Electricity had its. Hydrogen, on the other hand, has essentially none; you can't buy hydrogen at the store and pour it in your car yourself. Nor can you fuel a hydrogen vehicle by plugging into a wall socket. Nor is it economically viable for a vehicle owner to buy equipment to make their car's hydrogen at home using water and electricity. That leaves only one option left, which is for government to fund hydrogen fueling stations with no cars to use them, but even that doesn't work, as a fueling station has to be in a convenient location or its useless, and it would be cost-prohibitive to the taxpayer to fund anywhere near as many hydrogen fueling locations as there are gas stations. This being, in addition to the cost of hydrogen, itself. One big reason why home outlets was sufficient to get electric cars through the early adopter era is that home electricity is much cheaper than buying gasoline, so a person with both an EV and an ICE vehicle saves money by driving the EV as much as possible, and the ICE vehicle as little as possible. Compare to a hydrogen vehicle where, this time, the economics favor driving the ICE vehicle as much as possible, and the hydrogen vehicle, as little as possible - even if one is lucky enough to have a nearby hydrogen station that exists. Early adopter stories are so important, and is something that Toyota and all the other pushers of hydrogen as a transportation fuel seem to have completely forgotten about.
Ouch. It would be an almost trivial hack to place a "skimmer" in my EV, that would intercept and spoof someone else's MAC address. Even worse, to try using random MAC addresses from the pool assigned to each manufacturer.
Not worth your time for what little you would need. Unless you plan to be constantly driving long distance all the time as a traveling electricity thief you will never make back your investment in the thievery implements.
I would prefer not to have to manage an account for every charging provider. I see PKI as the only way forward or some kind of Apple Pay or Google Pay token. I certainly did not have a gas app for every gas station I used in the past!
In a world where public private key infrastructure has existed for 40 years, there no excuse to have something as flimsy as a MAC address serve as authentication that ultimately results in money being taken from my bank account or credit card. Absolutely not. This guy Glen even acknowledges this gaping hole, but its a complete non starter.
Glen is one of the most knowledgeable on these topics that I've met - great guest to cover these.
Agreed! Thanks for the link, Branden. Glen has a wealth of knowledge.
This is wonderful content! Thanks Francine and welcome back! I have missed the podcast for the past week!
A few problems with plugging in and charging:
1. If someone is borrowing your car, you will have to pay for all the charging or give them access to your account to put their credit card info in to have them pay.
2. When renting a car, there is no way to know how expensive it is to charge because the person renting the car doesn't have access to the account.
3. If you sell your car, then you have to update several apps to say that you no longer own that car and you are not going to pay for charging. This is why I never set it up on EvGo.
I rent out several vehicles to friends and people in the area so this is always on my mind. Also when we get to all electric vehicles which I am already partway there, but not renting electric ones yet this is going to have to be dealt with somehow.
I imagine the easiest way to answer 1 and 2 would be user profiles, like we currently have with cars with multiple key fobs (or phones in the case of Tesla, not super familiar with other brands Phone key setups). If I loan my car to someone, I should be able to hand them a Guest key and they can set it up when they get in the car, have that for the duration of their rental, and then just have a button to delete guest account data when you're done with your rental. Or do it via the phone app for the vehicle (a la Tesla).
The multiple app thing is a problem right now and I hope the industry gets it figured out. Ideally I'd just want the user data to be on the vehicle, then have the charger communicate to the vehicle to authorize payment and charging. And/or We get something like Ionity in Europe and you can have multiple charger operators operating on the same backend verification/payment system. I don't want to download 12 apps on my phone and set them all up and give them all my payment info in order to charge... If we can get Plug&Charge standardized on all vehicles, set up the car once when you get it, and let the car handle payment and verification on the backend... That would be the most seamless IMHO
Glen is a great guest to revisit regularly as the arrow of time moves forward to see how Autocharge, Plug&Charge and Fleets progress.
Wow, Glen is very knowledgeable about charging. Thank you, Francie.
Another great guest! New levels of “Nerding-out with Francie.” 👉Very few interviewers could have asked the right questions of a Big Brain like Glen. Well done, You. 👏👍
1:24 You are right.... eyes are rolling right this moment 😁
Excellent show. Learned a lot, even if, as a Tesla driver, I have no idea if I will ever need the info!
Great subject to talk about! Lets keep the momentum going!
Why are the credit card readers on dc fast chargers just the least reliable readers on the market?? The credit card terminals on gas pumps have never failed even once in human history, yet I rarely find an EV charger whose credit card terminal works
Just guessing, they are probably as reliable as gas station readers, its just that when gas station readers have issues, some one is fixing it asap, while these unattended parking lot chargers can go months without a qualified human coming buy to check up on them.
@@ultrastoat3298The gas pumps at gas stations are not owned and operated by the gas station (very few do). It is another company that is in charge of repairing and certifying the pump. When a pump goes down the third party has to pay the station owner until the pump is functional again. This has created an environment that incentivizes functioning equipment. There is actually better equipment on a gas pump than on a charging unit.
@@nicholaskolnik6458 hard to imagine that the PoS equipment isn’t coming from the same 2 or 3 manufacturers. The real difference maker is having someone come and fix it when there are issues. Also, some of the issues aren’t hardware related, but rather software related on the backends.
Strange. I've met many gas pump cc readers that don't work. Some that won't read at all. Some equipped with skimmers, to steal credit card info. And quite a few where the "insert card this way" was totally wrong.
Talk about obsolete technology!
@@ultrastoat3298 no I'm talking about stations where the reader worked once and then stopped working for months or years, while the same unit 10 feet away still does work
I don't take many road trips requiring public charging, but when I do, I prefer EVGo for this reason; however, "immediately charge" is a stretch. I plug in and wait a minute or two for the charger to connect to my Bolt. Don't know why it takes so long, but it does. I could plug in and walk away, and occasionally I do, but I usually wait for the connection process to complete. I don't want to return from a lunch break only to discover that charging never started. It's still easier than fooling with an app or a credit card, which doesn't avoid the long connection process, but charging is far from immediate.
If I find no EVGo when I need to charge, I'll use a ChargePoint RFID card. A quick swipe suffices to start the connection process, and the connection process takes so long that the additional few seconds to swipe is negligible. The RFID card is next to the keyfob that starts my card, so it's always with me, usually on a lanyard around my neck.
very interesting 👍👍👍
Here in Europe is still a lot of problems with plug and charge system, lots of chargers won't work.
Francie great episode
I’ve had great experiences with EV-Go Autocharge+ on my Tesla
One of the best yet. Where can we track which CPOs accept Autocharge or your car's certificates?
A future show on wireless charging (magnetic resonance) for EVs would be very interesting!
I have Plug and Charge with my Lightning, but I don't use it because it can't support the EA and Tesla membership / Subscription discounts. I'm curious if that is an inherent limitation or something that can be resolved down the road?
Interesting options to come.
No screen, no app? Wow! This adapter for my Mach-e is great.
When are you going to dedicate a cast to GM & Flying J network, Francie? Thanks.
Thank You Everybody for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth....
Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste
🙏🏻 😊 ✌ ☮ ❤ 🕊
To me its always been strange that the standard expects manufacturers to become payment processors. I would much rather have chargepoint or evgo handle billing than ford.
That’s some super quality work right there U DESERVE A RAISE !!! Hey Kyle hit her a lick…. Payroll is deductible as a cost of running a business
Hey Francie - Brian Hall at Fort Collins Kia just emailed me Friday (8/23/24) that they no longer arrange and pay for delivery. I was negotiating for an EV9 and I live in New York. I told him that your podcast still declares free delivery anywhere in the continental US. He said he would contact Kyle and let him know that they don't honor that any more. From his email: "We do not arrange shipping or pay delivery costs at this time. We were running a promotion a number of months ago where we were able to sell EV9's for MSRP and cover shipping costs. Since we are HEAVILY discounting the vehicle we are not able to cover shipping."
Heavily discounting the EV9? Does that mean they are not selling as well as they used to?
Seems like Out of Spec isn’t paying attention to its own business. That will frustrate their own viewers. 😂
@@FordEnthusiast413or a new model year is starting. Or nothing at all, manufacturing is a very dynamic business.
When an EA stall is working, it’s Plug & Charge works pretty good on my EQS. But, it is not as fast as Tesla Superchargers.
Neither of these work with AC charging. I have to use the RFID card. I would have to get that CHADMO to CCS adapter to get these features.
48:00 Re: Charging Costs. So glad I have NACS. Not sure how Tesla SC prices compare, but at least they’re 99.9% reliable vs NONE of the CCS ones I’ve ever tried have worked. I guess I don’t feel as cheated from buying the adapter as the majority of non-Tesla owners owners do for their whole cars, as soon as they learn what “charging done right” is like. Whew!
Do subscription programs work with plug and charge? I know that EA has subscriptions that allow you to buy down the rate. Does that only work with the app or a credit card or will it work with plug and charge?
I'm a Teala owner so I'm unfamiliar with the world of non Tesla charging.
Have you considered presenting (or do you know of someone who already has presented) a short history of ICE vehicle adoption during the first half of the 1900's? Folks who complain about lack of EV charging infrastructure or the elevated price of EV's v. ICE vehicles might be interested to know that initial adoption of ICE back in the day was similarly impeded by infrastructure issues and the high cost of dependable vehicles.
Cries of "get a horse!" are a meme for the early 1900's - as early-adopters struggled with their often unreliable ICE vehicles. Also, the transition from horse-drawn to ICE vehicles had similar implications for putting people out of business when, e.g. stables & other horse-related infrastructure were no longer needed & went out of business. (Thus requiring re-training for new jobs.) Your discussion on this podcast frequently demonstrates impatience with development & roll-out of charging infrastructure and industry standardization. (...and of course we're ALL frustrated with the slow pace of battery development...just sayin').
So that's my idea for a podcast that could put the EV-ecosystem roll out into perspective.
Thanks for your videos!
My understanding is that, back around 1900, gasoline was originally used as a cleaning solvent, and sold in drug stores, which meant that, even without formal gas stations, you could buy cans of the stuff, carry it out to the car using your own muscle power, and dump it in the tank using gravity. And, if you needed to drive further than the car could go on one tank of gas, you could carry additional fuel containers in the trunk, and transfer the fuel from the portable containers into the main fuel tank on the side of the road, as needed. While these kludges were not nearly as convenient as a modern gas station, they did work well enough to get enough early adopters of gasoline-powered cars that fueling services started developing as a business. At first, it was a matter of store employees carrying the fuel out from the store and pouring into the tank for you, eventually modern gas pumps took over. But, the point is, it was the initial ability to walk into a retail store, buy a substance that was already on sale because it was used for other things, and pour it into your car yourself, that was sufficient to get enough people using the technology to motivate the business investment to get it from niche to mainstream.
Of course, the buy-the-fuel-and-pour-it-in-yourself model does not work for EVs, as it has extremely high requirements on both energy density and energy transfer times in order to be viable. Instead, EVs took advantage of a completely different early adopter story, taking advantage of the fact that most cars sit all night parked at their owner's home, and that every home already has electricity delivered into it, so it was just a matter of plugging the car into an outlet at home and being done with it. While, of course, this model does not work for all people or all trips, it did work for enough people and enough trips to spark hopefully enough investment into proper public charging infrastructure, given enough time, to make the remaining use cases viable.
Just like, in the early gasoline days, not everybody had the physical strength to carry fuel containers from the store out to their car, not everybody has a house with an outlet that an EV can plug into. But, again, a technology's early adoption story doesn't need to work for everyone; it just needs to work for enough people to spark investments into the technology until businesses spring up to make it work for the rest.
This, in a nutshell, is a big reason why I have always been so skeptical of hydrogen as a transportation fuel. Gasoline had its early adopter story. Electricity had its. Hydrogen, on the other hand, has essentially none; you can't buy hydrogen at the store and pour it in your car yourself. Nor can you fuel a hydrogen vehicle by plugging into a wall socket. Nor is it economically viable for a vehicle owner to buy equipment to make their car's hydrogen at home using water and electricity. That leaves only one option left, which is for government to fund hydrogen fueling stations with no cars to use them, but even that doesn't work, as a fueling station has to be in a convenient location or its useless, and it would be cost-prohibitive to the taxpayer to fund anywhere near as many hydrogen fueling locations as there are gas stations. This being, in addition to the cost of hydrogen, itself. One big reason why home outlets was sufficient to get electric cars through the early adopter era is that home electricity is much cheaper than buying gasoline, so a person with both an EV and an ICE vehicle saves money by driving the EV as much as possible, and the ICE vehicle as little as possible. Compare to a hydrogen vehicle where, this time, the economics favor driving the ICE vehicle as much as possible, and the hydrogen vehicle, as little as possible - even if one is lucky enough to have a nearby hydrogen station that exists. Early adopter stories are so important, and is something that Toyota and all the other pushers of hydrogen as a transportation fuel seem to have completely forgotten about.
Ouch. It would be an almost trivial hack to place a "skimmer" in my EV, that would intercept and spoof someone else's MAC address. Even worse, to try using random MAC addresses from the pool assigned to each manufacturer.
Much easier said than done
Not worth your time for what little you would need. Unless you plan to be constantly driving long distance all the time as a traveling electricity thief you will never make back your investment in the thievery implements.
@@Lynyrd_Evnyrd Exactly - the only thing you would steal is being able to charge.
I would prefer not to have to manage an account for every charging provider. I see PKI as the only way forward or some kind of Apple Pay or Google Pay token. I certainly did not have a gas app for every gas station I used in the past!
Hey hey hey beautiful as always FRANCIE 👍
In a world where public private key infrastructure has existed for 40 years, there no excuse to have something as flimsy as a MAC address serve as authentication that ultimately results in money being taken from my bank account or credit card. Absolutely not. This guy Glen even acknowledges this gaping hole, but its a complete non starter.
Francie, I think this “alphabet soup”is too technical for half of your audience.