I’ve been a barista for 17 years and although I’ve came a long way, the learning surely never stops. I always look to find the next thing I can do to yield that perfect extraction. Personally, even from my beginning days I’ve always favored Arabica Robusta blends of either 80/20 or 70/30. I also, wait 10 minutes or so after grinding my beans before throwing it in the portafilter and locking in for extraction. I used to grind much finer when I was younger which would take longer to yield results but as I’ve gotten older I grind a bit coarser, maybe increase the dosage a bit more, wait those 10 Mins or so, and if on the right grind, a mountain of crema is waiting for you at the end of this process, so thick the sugar takes time to go down. I aim for just more than .6 of an oz (1.77 cl) and no more than .75 of an oz (2.21 cl).
nice. I love the description - you know I think I can taste that espresso now :). I wish robusta didn't have such a bad name in UK, but people associate Arabica with quality, instead of 'quality' with quality. But maybe it's better this way, and the robusta fans will just enjoy our quality robusta blend espresso without caring what the marketing says.
@@bartalks1810 Arabica is good for taste but I feel on its own , it isn’t enough to get a traditional bodied Italian espresso. The market has totally changed with 3rd wave and single origin beans , and they are big on milk based drinks. I respect the concept although it doesn’t suit me because all I drink are single espresso’s normally without any sugar and being that these newer roasts aren’t composed of what a traditional Italian roaster would use, the final product in the cup just doesn’t taste the same. Most of the famous traditional Neapolitan roasters usually will incorporate a percentage of robusta in there blend. I wanted to ask you, is there a big emphasis on crema like there is in Italy, In the UK? If so, you should school them on why robusta would help achieve that in their cup and that arabica on its own may not be enough to yield the same results.
This whole specialty coffee thing has gone too far. All in service of brutal capitalism, more expensive coffee, machines, gear... and 5$+ shots. The whole point of espresso is lost. No wonder Italians want to protect it. Bashing the taste of traditional espresso is insanity.
I'm looking forward to the Robusta revival which is coming! I still love my specialty coffee (made at home) and small batch roasters are a lovely group of people, but yeah, those trendy shops selling overpriced espresso I don't miss.
Well said and analyzed. I would like to add that although the culture of drinking a café (espresso) is like you described and is true to Italians in general, the blends differ pretty much between the North, Middle and South of Italy, becoming darker when going South. The espresso in the South is often much thicker too. I recommend Specialty Coffee drinkers to try North Italian beans. They are great if you don't like dark roasts. Italians don't like their café to taste acidic. It often has a bit of fruitiness in the beginning in North and Mid Italy but not a dominant acidic taste. Btw, roasters sometimes use specialty rated beans in their blends, but they don't mention it. They just pick beans with a certain taste profile to match their blend with often 5, 8 or more different beans and roast them like nobody else can IMO to a wonderful blend. The Italian price for a café is 1€ but 1,20€ is coming and in the North you can pay 1,50€ nowadays.
It's true - I was at the italian Coffee event in Trieste last year, and tasting some really great traditional espresso I would say was made to be true italian espresso, but with a blend of specialty coffee in there - My friends at Bazzara made some great coffee with either specialty arabica or robusta beans - OK I"m biased, but it's still true. Thanks @prolNpro for a great market overview.
Great commentary and observations regarding how Italians treat and consume espresso. I would welcome having espresso being priced and consumed in a similar fashion here in the USA. Unfortunately, more often than not we're only offered $4 to $5 USD shot. Perhaps if we had an "Italian Espresso" option we would see more people being drawn into supporting independent coffee shops and or roasters? Bring on democratized espresso in the USA!
I agree with you. We see the occasional espresso bars here in the UK, but they're not like the one's in Italy. It's a totally different culture we both have, with a preference toward large milk based coffees.
Quite simply the beans in speciality coffee is more milk coffee and machine temps are a lot higher usually 93 or 94 degrees C and the dose rations are completely different. A traditional single shot is 7g of ground espresso for 28ml thats a 1:4 ratio. One fo the reasons why it tastes good is that if you grind finer you extract more and if you use a lever machine with differing pressure you need to grind finer again which is why the espresso taste better in the south where they use lever machines like the La San Marco. Moreover, the brew temperature is lower at 90 degree C max.
Both approaches have a right to exist of course, I personally oftentimes prefer the Italian espresso, partially because this is the flavor profile I grew up with. And we should not forget that in Italy, a decent to good espresso can be bought everywhere (Trains, train stations, motorway service areas etc.) for 1 to 1.5 euros, where in most other countries you would get a brown, watery and not particularly enjoyable beverage out of a paper cup and might pay more for it.
I can’t believe you are talking about Italian espresso w/o max. Italian espresso differs greatly from region to region. I believe the northern Italy uses very little robusta if any.
haha, Max will love you, and yes he's going to kill me - thanks for pointing that out. He's actually doing really well at work (who knew?) and now he has to do a lot more powerpoints, and will be joining in the show 1-2 times a month only.
Okay, let's summarize. Italians: drink straight dark roasted espresso, with a teaspoon of sugar. 14g:40g+-(without crema volume, just weight. about 1:3 ratio) and about 88+- celsius. it can be waterier than Modern&Specialty's, but it's depth suited for straight drink. Modern: 18g over:36g over(1:2) and about 90 over celsius, and dark/medium/light-various roasting style - somebody loves this 1:2 shot, who loves 'ristretto' acidity and hard taste - but it's depth too tough for most people to drink straight. this shot is suited for Americano and Caffe Latte, Flat White and etc coffee variations. I think each of them has a different purpose. It's hard to say what's superior but Italian's has a little bit of uneven.
I’ve found that most cafes in the US make espresso with lightly roasted beans that I can’t stand. It’s gotten to a point that when I read clean, bright, citrus or floral, I want to throw up. I prefer making mine at home with Arabica beans that are medium dark and that have chocolate and caramel under notes. I enjoy a full and creamy mouthfeel. So, I’m really not a fan of third wave coffee. I just don’t understand why they only serve one style of espresso.
It might not be the level of roast as much as the type of bean. Try a quality robusta... no wait, before you swear at me, the problem with robusta is not the bean, but that most people sell low quality robusta because it's cheap. Maybe try a blend of 70/30 robusta/arabica from a specialty roaster that does them. You might find it gives you the body you want, with great flavour.
Love Italian espresso. I like 70/30 blend medium roast. Single basket or double basket. Or Double espresso with single liquid- a sort of restretto. Or if if I am fee,ing greedy I do some hot water and then a single for an americano. I am not in to all this weighing and measuring. I enjoy good strong bold black coffee with a wonderful crème. Not too fussed about milk drinks. Sometimes I make a small cappuccino but that is mainly to change things up at breakfast. The main thing is to
70% arabica? I also do that a lot at home right now - manually add about 20-30% robusta beans into my arabica for a stronger coffee first thing. Love the thicker texture and stronger kick.
I almost always buy specialty coffee, often buying ‘Northern Italian’ style roasts here in the USA. I find them easier to extract into a thick, sweet syrupy espresso than the light ‘Nordic’ roasts. Look out UNESCO, the Nords may come knocking…
I live in the US and I drink espresso drinks from all the fancy, urban, hipstery coffee places. I recently went to Morocco, Spain and Portugal and just loved the coffee there. I THINK it's the same as the Italian coffee you're describing. I felt it was more chocolaty/bold and less acidic than most of the espressos I drink in the US and was just perplexed that it doesn't exist in the US. I'm trying to understand what the difference is and it's still not clear to me. Is it only that there's more Robusta in it? Is it also the darker roast?
sorry for the delay in replying Tamer - yes, there's usually a blend or 100% robusta for coffee in some of these regions. That's not necessarily a bad thing, there's great robusta beans out there, and they tend to be cheaper because robusta, part of the canephora family of plants are less susceptible to disease - so higher yield = cheaper to produce. It does exist in the US for sure, I know Vietnam is exports of robusta coffee is growing in the US. Beans from vietnam, Indonesia and India may well be robusta. The darker roast often has little to do with it - company's roast darker to mask bad coffee. Look for the term specialty, which means that it has to have met a certain quality standard. A specialty blend of Robusta and Arabica might be a nice place to start. It's a fun adventure to find a nice independent roaster who's coffee you love. I'm sure you'll discover some great coffees.
The price controlled democratised espresso in Italy apply only to the ones drank at the bar. If you sit at a table and have it served by staff, the establishment is free to charge what it wishes. You also didn’t mention the technical specifications of a “certified Italian espresso” per the IENI, which interestingly, has 7g of coffee extracted into 25ml. In snobbish 3rd wave coffee establishments in UK and USA, this would be regarded as too low a dose and too high a ratio; described more often as a “lungo”.
Did I not mention 7g / 14g standards? hmm, I should have. thanks for clarifying. Thats the dose that Costa Coffee uses here in the UK too. But, I think it's unfair to call all 3rd wave coffee establishments snobs - it's a different approach to coffee, with passionate supporters of each. There's a place for both, don't you think?
@@bartalks1810 There is indeed. However, I don’t get places where the barista looks at me in shock horror when I ask for a double espresso in 3:1, then proceeding to tell me airily, it’s best taken 2:1. I like my coffee in a range of brew ratios and different methods. I know what I’m ordering when I order it.
I roast my own specialty coffees, and while I don’t really like super-light roasts (which are the norm here is Australia) I think mine would be considered light by Italian standards. I also do single origins almost exclusively; available varieties switch constantly and trying to do blends just seems too complicated. So, robustas are kind of out because when I’ve tried them (rare) I find the burnt rubber flavor too much on its own. Overall, not very Italian, though I certainly think UNESCO recognition is warranted.
Thanks David, as a matter of interest, when you say single origin, do you go for single estate? Blending is an art, and blending Robusta is something I know some roasters are experimenting with to keep their costs down here in the UK as prices of their Brazilian supply doubled this year. I'm not sure how well it will work though, but it's going to be interesting.
Thoughts on which burr setts would most accurately replicate Italian coffee? Let’s say you were trying to do this with your Lagom or another single dose grinder.
Yikes, missed this comment. Well, no really. although yes. Remember the oldest Italian burr experts are Mazzer I believe. They make the burrsets for other manufacturers. They also make a lot of the grinders Italian Espresso shops use. Maybe start there.
Hi Guys, I’ve just discovered this pod and have been binge listening to it ever since. I’ve just been listening to your Rancilio Silvia Pro vs Sage Dual. It sounds like Rancilio have answered your prayers with the Pro X, would love to hear your thoughts. I’m in the market for a (first) machine at the moment…
Hey, Nicholas. Did you buy one already? The Rancilio Silvia Pro X still has the crappy PID that looks like a texas instruments calculator. But otherwise it's a solid choice. Make sure you budget for a good grinder - If budget is a big factor, I'd put more money into the grinder first tbh and then get a cheapo second hand Sage/Breville or Gaggia Classic Pro, until you can upgrade the machine.
@@bartalks1810 Thanks for this, I’ve not bought anything yet, I agree the PID looks rubbish but I was thinking it would be worth getting a solid machine in the first instance so I don’t have to upgrade in a few yrs. I also like the idea of preinfusion as we generally drink more medium roast beans. Re the grinder we were going to go for either one of the Eurika mignon grinders or the baratza sette 270. Max has swayed me towards a stepped grinder though like the sette. Open to suggestions though.
"Italian espresso" Cant be justified on thats the way they make it . Yes, the ritual is beautiful but why cant it be complete with a professional work done by a skilled barista? Dirty machines, dirty portafilters baristas with 0 knowledge about coffee, underpaid are very common in Italy. i dont think that represents the great italian gastronomy. It surprises me how they have a deep knowledge almost about every single thing they eat but know nothing about coffee. Its not about the roast level. Its about quality. You can have a great espresso even if dark roasted.
Wait wait, so Italy wants to protect its lower quality, poorly made espresso? Italian espresso is cheap because it's a lower quality drink - with cheaper Robusta beans extracted at a lower dosage. That's why it tastes a bit like tepid bathwater. In Australia, even McDonalds only serve 100% Arabica coffee!
I’ve been a barista for 17 years and although I’ve came a long way, the learning surely never stops. I always look to find the next thing I can do to yield that perfect extraction. Personally, even from my beginning days I’ve always favored Arabica Robusta blends of either 80/20 or 70/30. I also, wait 10 minutes or so after grinding my beans before throwing it in the portafilter and locking in for extraction. I used to grind much finer when I was younger which would take longer to yield results but as I’ve gotten older I grind a bit coarser, maybe increase the dosage a bit more, wait those 10
Mins or so, and if on the right grind, a mountain of crema is waiting for you at the end of this process, so thick the sugar takes time to go down. I aim for just more than .6 of an oz (1.77 cl) and no more than .75 of an oz (2.21 cl).
nice. I love the description - you know I think I can taste that espresso now :). I wish robusta didn't have such a bad name in UK, but people associate Arabica with quality, instead of 'quality' with quality. But maybe it's better this way, and the robusta fans will just enjoy our quality robusta blend espresso without caring what the marketing says.
@@bartalks1810 Arabica is good for taste but I feel on its own , it isn’t enough to get a traditional bodied Italian espresso. The market has totally changed with 3rd wave and single origin beans , and they are big on milk based drinks. I respect the concept although it doesn’t suit me because all I drink are single espresso’s normally without any sugar and being that these newer roasts aren’t composed of what a traditional Italian roaster would use, the final product in the cup just doesn’t taste the same. Most of the famous traditional Neapolitan roasters usually will incorporate a percentage of robusta in there blend. I wanted to ask you, is there a big emphasis on crema like there is in Italy, In the UK? If so, you should school them on why robusta would help achieve that in their cup and that arabica on its own may not be enough to yield the same results.
This whole specialty coffee thing has gone too far. All in service of brutal capitalism, more expensive coffee, machines, gear... and 5$+ shots. The whole point of espresso is lost. No wonder Italians want to protect it. Bashing the taste of traditional espresso is insanity.
I'm looking forward to the Robusta revival which is coming! I still love my specialty coffee (made at home) and small batch roasters are a lovely group of people, but yeah, those trendy shops selling overpriced espresso I don't miss.
Speciality is the way forward. The reason the price is higher is because the quality is higher and the farmers are being better paid
Well said and analyzed. I would like to add that although the culture of drinking a café (espresso) is like you described and is true to Italians in general, the blends differ pretty much between the North, Middle and South of Italy, becoming darker when going South. The espresso in the South is often much thicker too. I recommend Specialty Coffee drinkers to try North Italian beans. They are great if you don't like dark roasts.
Italians don't like their café to taste acidic. It often has a bit of fruitiness in the beginning in North and Mid Italy but not a dominant acidic taste.
Btw, roasters sometimes use specialty rated beans in their blends, but they don't mention it. They just pick beans with a certain taste profile to match their blend with often 5, 8 or more different beans and roast them like nobody else can IMO to a wonderful blend.
The Italian price for a café is 1€ but 1,20€ is coming and in the North you can pay 1,50€ nowadays.
It's true - I was at the italian Coffee event in Trieste last year, and tasting some really great traditional espresso I would say was made to be true italian espresso, but with a blend of specialty coffee in there - My friends at Bazzara made some great coffee with either specialty arabica or robusta beans - OK I"m biased, but it's still true. Thanks @prolNpro for a great market overview.
Great commentary and observations regarding how Italians treat and consume espresso. I would welcome having espresso being priced and consumed in a similar fashion here in the USA. Unfortunately, more often than not we're only offered $4 to $5 USD shot. Perhaps if we had an "Italian Espresso" option we would see more people being drawn into supporting independent coffee shops and or roasters? Bring on democratized espresso in the USA!
I agree with you. We see the occasional espresso bars here in the UK, but they're not like the one's in Italy. It's a totally different culture we both have, with a preference toward large milk based coffees.
Just got back from Italy, already missing the 1 euro espressos
Quite simply the beans in speciality coffee is more milk coffee and machine temps are a lot higher usually 93 or 94 degrees C and the dose rations are completely different. A traditional single shot is 7g of ground espresso for 28ml thats a 1:4 ratio. One fo the reasons why it tastes good is that if you grind finer you extract more and if you use a lever machine with differing pressure you need to grind finer again which is why the espresso taste better in the south where they use lever machines like the La San Marco. Moreover, the brew temperature is lower at 90 degree C max.
Both approaches have a right to exist of course, I personally oftentimes prefer the Italian espresso, partially because this is the flavor profile I grew up with. And we should not forget that in Italy, a decent to good espresso can be bought everywhere (Trains, train stations, motorway service areas etc.) for 1 to 1.5 euros, where in most other countries you would get a brown, watery and not particularly enjoyable beverage out of a paper cup and might pay more for it.
I can’t believe you are talking about Italian espresso w/o max. Italian espresso differs greatly from region to region. I believe the northern Italy uses very little robusta if any.
haha, Max will love you, and yes he's going to kill me - thanks for pointing that out. He's actually doing really well at work (who knew?) and now he has to do a lot more powerpoints, and will be joining in the show 1-2 times a month only.
Okay, let's summarize.
Italians: drink straight dark roasted espresso, with a teaspoon of sugar. 14g:40g+-(without crema volume, just weight. about 1:3 ratio) and about 88+- celsius. it can be waterier than Modern&Specialty's, but it's depth suited for straight drink.
Modern: 18g over:36g over(1:2) and about 90 over celsius, and dark/medium/light-various roasting style - somebody loves this 1:2 shot, who loves 'ristretto' acidity and hard taste - but it's depth too tough for most people to drink straight. this shot is suited for Americano and Caffe Latte, Flat White and etc coffee variations.
I think each of them has a different purpose. It's hard to say what's superior but Italian's has a little bit of uneven.
I’ve found that most cafes in the US make espresso with lightly roasted beans that I can’t stand. It’s gotten to a point that when I read clean, bright, citrus or floral, I want to throw up. I prefer making mine at home with Arabica beans that are medium dark and that have chocolate and caramel under notes. I enjoy a full and creamy mouthfeel. So, I’m really not a fan of third wave coffee. I just don’t understand why they only serve one style of espresso.
It might not be the level of roast as much as the type of bean. Try a quality robusta... no wait, before you swear at me, the problem with robusta is not the bean, but that most people sell low quality robusta because it's cheap. Maybe try a blend of 70/30 robusta/arabica from a specialty roaster that does them. You might find it gives you the body you want, with great flavour.
@@bartalks1810 That’s an idea. Although, Robusta beans are usually harsher and more bitter,
not the good stuff - trust me - a good canephora, not just robusta, can be sweet and nutty.
Love Italian espresso. I like 70/30 blend medium roast. Single basket or double basket. Or Double espresso with single liquid- a sort of restretto. Or if if I am fee,ing greedy I do some hot water and then a single for an americano. I am not in to all this weighing and measuring. I enjoy good strong bold black coffee with a wonderful crème. Not too fussed about milk drinks. Sometimes I make a small cappuccino but that is mainly to change things up at breakfast. The main thing is to
70% arabica? I also do that a lot at home right now - manually add about 20-30% robusta beans into my arabica for a stronger coffee first thing. Love the thicker texture and stronger kick.
I almost always buy specialty coffee, often buying ‘Northern Italian’ style roasts here in the USA. I find them easier to extract into a thick, sweet syrupy espresso than the light ‘Nordic’ roasts. Look out UNESCO, the Nords may come knocking…
Yes! that's my kind of first thing in the morning, espresso.
I live in the US and I drink espresso drinks from all the fancy, urban, hipstery coffee places. I recently went to Morocco, Spain and Portugal and just loved the coffee there. I THINK it's the same as the Italian coffee you're describing. I felt it was more chocolaty/bold and less acidic than most of the espressos I drink in the US and was just perplexed that it doesn't exist in the US. I'm trying to understand what the difference is and it's still not clear to me. Is it only that there's more Robusta in it? Is it also the darker roast?
sorry for the delay in replying Tamer - yes, there's usually a blend or 100% robusta for coffee in some of these regions. That's not necessarily a bad thing, there's great robusta beans out there, and they tend to be cheaper because robusta, part of the canephora family of plants are less susceptible to disease - so higher yield = cheaper to produce. It does exist in the US for sure, I know Vietnam is exports of robusta coffee is growing in the US. Beans from vietnam, Indonesia and India may well be robusta. The darker roast often has little to do with it - company's roast darker to mask bad coffee. Look for the term specialty, which means that it has to have met a certain quality standard. A specialty blend of Robusta and Arabica might be a nice place to start. It's a fun adventure to find a nice independent roaster who's coffee you love. I'm sure you'll discover some great coffees.
The price controlled democratised espresso in Italy apply only to the ones drank at the bar. If you sit at a table and have it served by staff, the establishment is free to charge what it wishes. You also didn’t mention the technical specifications of a “certified Italian espresso” per the IENI, which interestingly, has 7g of coffee extracted into 25ml. In snobbish 3rd wave coffee establishments in UK and USA, this would be regarded as too low a dose and too high a ratio; described more often as a “lungo”.
Did I not mention 7g / 14g standards? hmm, I should have. thanks for clarifying. Thats the dose that Costa Coffee uses here in the UK too.
But, I think it's unfair to call all 3rd wave coffee establishments snobs - it's a different approach to coffee, with passionate supporters of each. There's a place for both, don't you think?
@@bartalks1810 There is indeed. However, I don’t get places where the barista looks at me in shock horror when I ask for a double espresso in 3:1, then proceeding to tell me airily, it’s best taken 2:1. I like my coffee in a range of brew ratios and different methods. I know what I’m ordering when I order it.
@@jerome_morrow spot on
I roast my own specialty coffees, and while I don’t really like super-light roasts (which are the norm here is Australia) I think mine would be considered light by Italian standards. I also do single origins almost exclusively; available varieties switch constantly and trying to do blends just seems too complicated. So, robustas are kind of out because when I’ve tried them (rare) I find the burnt rubber flavor too much on its own. Overall, not very Italian, though I certainly think UNESCO recognition is warranted.
Thanks David, as a matter of interest, when you say single origin, do you go for single estate? Blending is an art, and blending Robusta is something I know some roasters are experimenting with to keep their costs down here in the UK as prices of their Brazilian supply doubled this year. I'm not sure how well it will work though, but it's going to be interesting.
Thoughts on which burr setts would most accurately replicate Italian coffee? Let’s say you were trying to do this with your Lagom or another single dose grinder.
Yikes, missed this comment. Well, no really. although yes. Remember the oldest Italian burr experts are Mazzer I believe. They make the burrsets for other manufacturers. They also make a lot of the grinders Italian Espresso shops use. Maybe start there.
Mazzer, Anfim, or Eureka
Hi Guys,
I’ve just discovered this pod and have been binge listening to it ever since. I’ve just been listening to your Rancilio Silvia Pro vs Sage Dual. It sounds like Rancilio have answered your prayers with the Pro X, would love to hear your thoughts. I’m in the market for a (first) machine at the moment…
Hey, Nicholas. Did you buy one already? The Rancilio Silvia Pro X still has the crappy PID that looks like a texas instruments calculator. But otherwise it's a solid choice. Make sure you budget for a good grinder - If budget is a big factor, I'd put more money into the grinder first tbh and then get a cheapo second hand Sage/Breville or Gaggia Classic Pro, until you can upgrade the machine.
@@bartalks1810 Thanks for this, I’ve not bought anything yet, I agree the PID looks rubbish but I was thinking it would be worth getting a solid machine in the first instance so I don’t have to upgrade in a few yrs. I also like the idea of preinfusion as we generally drink more medium roast beans. Re the grinder we were going to go for either one of the Eurika mignon grinders or the baratza sette 270. Max has swayed me towards a stepped grinder though like the sette. Open to suggestions though.
"Italian espresso" Cant be justified on thats the way they make it . Yes, the ritual is beautiful but why cant it be complete with a professional work done by a skilled barista? Dirty machines, dirty portafilters baristas with 0 knowledge about coffee, underpaid are very common in Italy. i dont think that represents the great italian gastronomy. It surprises me how they have a deep knowledge almost about every single thing they eat but know nothing about coffee. Its not about the roast level. Its about quality. You can have a great espresso even if dark roasted.
I thought you were talking about starbucks!
I surely got a kick out of watching the video. Not to mention the comments 🙏🏻👍
I love Italian caffee
nothing wrong with it. has a nice kick - no frills.
Why are you saying that you're losing people by talking about history? Is that based on youtube analytics? You're not losing me at least ;)
Hi gimig, no it was just a worry I was going to bore people. Glad you liked it though, you made my day :)
Very very interesting video
Thanks Richard!
Wait wait, so Italy wants to protect its lower quality, poorly made espresso?
Italian espresso is cheap because it's a lower quality drink - with cheaper Robusta beans extracted at a lower dosage. That's why it tastes a bit like tepid bathwater.
In Australia, even McDonalds only serve 100% Arabica coffee!
Have you been to Italy