A Rant: Espresso Ratios & Recipes
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- A short rant on how we might be relying on ratios too much when communicating espresso, and some of the problems when talking about specific recipes.
Barista Hustle's Espresso Compass: baristahustle....
Barista Hustle's Coffee Compass: baristahustle....
Music: King Seven - "Slippers"
Links:
Patreon: / jameshoffmann
My Book: geni.us/atlasof...
Limited Edition Merch: www.tenshundre...
Instagram: / jimseven
Twitter: / jimseven
My coffee kit (studio): kit.co/jimseve...
My video kit: kit.co/jimseve...
This is the calmest rant I've ever heard.
He must be British 🤓
😂😂😂😂
I would love to see your process on dialing in. What you taste for, or how your method may vary depending on the brewing apparatus.
This is such a good idea! It would be great to see James in a situation with multiple unknowns (new beans, new machine, new grinder) and just get an idea of how to make those small adjustments in the process.
I’m in this dil-emma as well. Would love to see your process James. I’ve looked at Barista-Hustle on the recipe upside down pyramid for Dose, yield and time and sticking to a strict code of conduct when dialing in. Waiting with anticipation.
also i really wonder hows the different gonna be between spouted pf and naked pf on dialing in process.
@@gembrak2864 There isn't a difference. Portafilter styles are really a choice in aesthetics and different functionalities depending on what the cafe needs (ie head room, preventing channeled espresso from going everywhere, etc.) Dialing in using both, I have experienced no difference in flavor
PLEASE make a vid about this
Thank you for your always educational information. I run a small coffee shop in Michigan and am constantly talking about you and your videos. We all appreciate the fine work you do here.
I actually enjoy being a "mad scientist" and exploring where the coffee takes me. If I fail.... So be it, but when there is success the enjoyment brought forth in that cup takes away all the pain and misery
Completely agree. There's so much fulfillment and satisfaction from taking the time to dial in the best settings for your equipment.
If one does not fail, one can not improve…… he says after dialling in a nice Sipi Falls… for the 2nd time.. ☕️
I came here for the sarcastic product reviews. I left knowing much more about espresso :-)
There was really something wonderfully philosophical about this rant! As someone just getting into coffee making, it made me feel a lot more comfortable about being willing to experiment..
Hey James, From the perspective of an Australian barista.
this was back in 2009-2011 era of making coffee. back then, and prior, within the specialty movement, Australian cafes were almost universally pulling double ristretto shots for everything. this was great for roasteries, since cafes would be using more coffee. a 6oz cup would get a double ristretto, a 12oz cup would get two double ristretto. this was terrible for cafes, as the CoGs for a cup of coffee was much higher in those days. Its hard to argue whether this system was better or worse for milk coffee drinkers, but it was terrible for espresso drinkers, since almost everything you were ever served was under extracted.
with the advent of the espresso recipe/ratio, we also saw specialty espresso bars start actually brewing espresso again, so i absolutely agree that it moved us forward as an industry from where we were. from a user end point, i find there's two types of baristas, those that desperately want a recipe because they need guidance to find a good end point, and those who do not because they are smart enough to figure it out themselves (regardless of whether this is true or not). for the first audience, i find a large part of the problem is language. when you ask them what describes a good espresso, they'll make reference to tactile qualities, or use emotionally driven language, and the concept of sour, sweet, bitter/under, ideal, over extracted are foreign to them. for these people, a ratio doesn't help them at all, since they can brew at the ratio indicated, but wont necessarily be able to dial in properly from that point. a recipe would probably be better?
In recent years, I've seen the conversation regarding ratios in the barista sphere start to change. baristas and roasteries in Australia are moving away from a 1:2 ratio in flavour of larger, more dilute ratios. many roasteries are advocating for ratios between 1:2.5 and 1:3. not a huge change, but enough to significantly alter the drinking experience of an espresso. there are positive and negatives to this. on one hand, more dilute ratios tend to be easier to extract well. on the other hand, they have less body. in my experience, many lay consumers of straight espresso enjoy it for not just its flavour balance, but also for its tactile qualities. if you were to dial in a coffee to be extracted to the same degree at a 1:2 ratio and a 1:3 ratio (forgive the use of ratio instead of recipe, ill get to my reason for this in just a moment) you'll probably find that your non coffee industry working espresso drinking customers will prefer the stronger beverage simply by the ethos of stronger=better.
final thought: I find it so interesting hearing about other countries and the recipes they use. doses of 16-19g are completely unheard of in Australia, and id realistically only expect to ever see a dose that small on a home machine. almost without exception, a cafe would be dosing 21 or 22g and then producing espressos of between 40 and 55g in yield depending on the ratio they're trying to achieve. when i think of using an 18 dose in my setup, the two things i immediately ask are, how do you milky coffees taste (keep in mind that 95% of an Australian cafes coffee orders will be milk based drinks) and secondly, how do you use an EK with such a tiny dose? are the EKs being calibrated differently? im often uncomfortably close to my grinders finer settings when brewing with a 21g dose on an EK. how do markets that use doses that are potentially only 75% of this weight making it work?
Heya, I am a barista from Canada who was trained hard core pacific northwest 3rd wave and my experience in NSW (11 1/2 month in 2018) of coffee was not as good as I was led to believe... By the dilution you are talking abput it sounds like people are wanting to introduce brewed coffee... Which would make sense, just because you have a proliferation of espresso machines does not mean you have quality coming out of 95% of places.
It was very hard to find decent african coffees and milk that was not burned.
I was told victoria had better coffee but i am not inclined to believe it... Sorry if i rambled.... But australia would do good to introduce brew. The curtis machines are highly programmable and make decent pots... Especially for the masses of ludites who want dark roast espresso and burnt milk/milk alternatives
@@MatchBookNotes You heard correctly, Victorian coffee (particularly specialty Melbourne coffee shops) is much better than Sydney coffee. When people say that Australia has good coffee they are referring to Melbourne
My experience in Toronto is that most places updose to 20+ grams for EK shots. There are also some places that are pulling longer, 1:3 range extractions as their standard espresso. Your point about non-industry-working people missing the tactile mouthfeel of a shorter shot and therefore assuming "weak" espresso = bad espresso... well that's definitely true. I absolutely love the delicate complexities of a longer shot but often am not satisfied by the mouthfeel and weight - and I'm a barista who's been working in coffee for 15+ years. Obviously some coffees express themselves better stretched out like that, but it's a deal breaker for me personally when it comes to espresso. If I can't ever get a God Shot at 1:3, then I don't want to bother... I'll happily fail every now and then pulling 20g:32g shots just so I can catch one that's perfect.
It was great reading your long reply. Thanks for taking the time to post it.
Cr0key it really depends on the cafe, moreso than the city. There are nice looking cafes, with sincere baristas in both cities with mediocre coffee.
Keep in mind that in Italy we dont go for a lot of milky drinks, a cappuccino or a macchiato (just a bit of milk foam on top of an espresso...) at the most. The espresso is often drank straight, maybe a bit of sugar for some, and its drank several times a day. The espresso I grew up with is small. When I first moved to Canada and ordered an espresso (in a famous chain that back then I didnt know at all) the amount of espresso in the cup was a lot. When i ordered a macchiato they served me an almost cappuccino and a cappuccino was basically the caffelatte kids drink in the morning....
"get me to good quickly" is a great way of putting it. In most things in life there are no shortcuts, it takes time and effort to get to good.
I've learned that coffee is an incredibly personal experience , using the areopress has changed my coffee experience for the better , and made the experience a curious one , I've tried many more types and processes than I have in the past
James, I have to say that your commentary is some of the first on TH-cam that I can relate to and respect. I started in the coffee business in 1993 by opening a small coffee bar in Poland. There was no espresso culture in the West outside of Italy to speak of and what did exist was generally related to the Italian tradition. I had to learn with a store grinder, a semiautomatic machine, the portafilter cups that came with my machine (an Astoria single group), a general idea of what the goal was, and very limited access to good coffee or knowledge.
What that did was force me to learn to make espresso and espresso drinks by trial and error and tons of repetition. It seems that nowadays people want to bypass the entire learning curve and dive right into making the best cup of whatever using numbers and formulae - a daunting task for any human being. I think you are advocating for real world trial and error as well and a move away from the numbers and formulae as the best method, which I wholeheartedly support.
The espresso scene here in the US is very developed but I admit, I can't stomach most of the coffees they brew here. They're either too strong (20-30 grams of ground coffee for a single espresso), or single origin (overwhelming flavor notes), or some other combination of flavor issues that make the espresso unpalatable in my mouth. It's as though the baristas here never tasted what a real espresso is and are shooting for some mathematical ideal instead.
Keep shooting that down, please!
So true..
I followed your advice at 6:09 and added a pinch of salt to my ratio. Wow, it had such an impact on the flavor profile. You're a true innovator!
hahah... what a nice laugh I had now...
Well.. I mean, besides the joke, putting a tiny pinch of salt into your espresso actually is quite known "beginner's emergency" when you coffee is too acidic. It kills too much taste though, I tried it.
Best two pieces of advice: 5:05-5:15, and 6:30-6:46 in the video. "Set yourself up for success starting with a lower dose", and high-grown coffee needs a bit of a lower dose compared with a lower-grown (such as a good Brazil estate). Thank you James!
In a nutshell it all depends on your kit/equipment. Every time you change beans you need to adjust your grind to suit the beans!!
Yepp, that's one of my biggest issues. When I change espresso beans, I have to go through 300-500g of coffee until everything is correct and consistent. If you share your thougths, James, maybe I can get the amount of "wasted" (not as delicious as it could be) down!
An SCA trainer once remarked, "Good milk steaming takes a weekend to master. Espresso takes a lifetime."
Why then my steamed milk isn't getting any better 😢
How very very endearingly british, this rant. All that‘s missing are long winded apologies at the start and at the end. And in the middle 🥰
Call that a rant! You should see me if a break the yolk when frying an egg.
Farm fresh are typically less fragile and more flavorful
Austin Z. Jones 😒
Bravo. Good presentation. As a newcomer to espresso I was almost put off it altogether by the entitled views and comments from coffee forums such as "what are you are doing is not making coffee" because the ratios I enjoyed or the beans I used didn't tally with their rigid views. What really annoyed some was that my grinder "wasnt capable" of making "proper" espresso. I use a sage grinder pro because unlike them I cannot afford a Niche or a Eureka. It works...it grinds fine enough as long as stale or very dark roasts are avoided and is easily consistent enough so what's the real issue there? That there's better? It's like saying you drive a mini when everyone scoffs down from their range rovers at you.
There's way too much entitlement and categorising by intolerant people in coffee circles who instead of working with you to help you maximise your success and consistency instead start with the standpoint that if you cannot afford 3 or 4 figure grinders and coffee macines you should get another hobby...it's a disease on many forums. I prefer your balanced and sensible views and advice.
For me and I suspect for many...dialling for personal preference on flavour profile is where it's at for specific beans....not what someone tells you it should be...or what strength it must be. Like Americano? Great....crack on and ignore the swoons if those who regard it as sacreligious!
My kit is a Handpresso and a 1Zpresso Pro grinder. I went from canned espresso coffee to grinding my own. Until I got a grinder I could dial in I was at the mercy of the coffee company or my cheap $25 ceramic/plastic grinder and the fixed clicks.
It is in no way prosumer level but like my Aeropress it makes coffee I like.
Would love to see you calibrating espresso
Absolutely, can't wait until James makes that video.
When I studied in Italy, I was taught to aim for 15g with a wet weight of around 28-32g. I found that for me that this made for a DELICIOUS espresso.
Spot on. Its the ratio I use by choice.
I like a 1:2, but I like slightly bigger so I do 18:34-38 . Mmmm. Aim for 36 but you can’t always be perfect.
Jamez of Desert District that is 1:2
@@chefbigdog4132 by "bigger", I think the meaning is that the preference is for more liquid in the cup at the 1:2 ratio. 36g rather than 30g.
@@Trixtah ah yeah that makes sense haha
I’m so grateful that James Hoffmann exists. This is what I need to know
I’m not sure why there’s any dislikes on this vid, and it’s far from a rant just a bit of common sense in my opinion and very well said. The problem with all of these ‘rules’ that people have come up with is that there’s exceptions for every single one of them. I’m not sure why people insist on being so narrow minded.
I know I am very late to this video, but I have felt that way about the shop I work at here in America. I feel like most places I have worked just say, "18g, 25s" and that isn't helpful. Especially when you taste it and know that you have done something wrong, but have no idea how to fix it. You have inspired me to bring this up to my boss so our customers can get the best possible espresso.
Convenience and consistency are the key advantages of ratios. We have 3 shops , and we use 18g into 40g in 27-34s. I sleep well at night knowing that extractions falling within thos parameters will give our customers fault free coffee. Not sour, not bitter, and worth coming to us for. We take the roasters advice on this and our taste buds agree with them.
Good to have all this information in one video. Thanks James! I've been experimenting for quite a long time with super low dose ( less coffee , less fines, finer grind, thinner coffee bed with more even saturation) and had great results. Would love to see someone talking more about flow restrictions, pressure profiling set up with particular grind distribution.
Would love to hear from your experimentation and what is giving the best results with lower dosage.
I needed that rant. I have been focusing too much on ratio. James and TH-cam are psychics!!
Over the last couple months I’ve been using a Flair with the 2 in 1 bottomless basket, which is approximately 40mm. Due to the small diameter and thus a much thicker puck, I’ve found the best results come from keeping my dose slightly lower, grinding finer, and extracting a bit longer. This ends up in my “double shot” being more like 16g:36g, or a 1:2.25 ratio. I say this to agree with the premise that the ratios we throw around and so often rely on in specialty coffee are a great starting point, but they are just that… a rough starting point from which to fine tune your input and output to achieve the best result from your setup and coffee
I work in pastries, and one of the reasons I got into espresso was all the similarities between the two. It takes a number of elements to bake bread properly, just like getting an espresso shot right. And whenever I try a new recipe at work, I always take notes. Things like mixing time, bake time and temp, fermentation time, etc. I do the same things when i get new coffee beans. For me, it's fun. It's a challenge, but in a good way. I recommend every one to take notes, mentally or on paper. This will help get the consistency down.
Just found you and your videos and have been binging. Love the coffee science! Thanks for the great videos for all the other coffee nerds out there!
As somebody who knows absolutely nothing about this and was able to dial in my espresso on my Breville machine yesterday (thank you for your videos!), it totally makes sense that 18:36 and 22:44 would not taste the same. The basket is only so large - so more coffee in means less space for the puck. The smaller basket of the Breville actually made things a bit difficult for me - getting 18g of grounds in the basket meant it was overflowing. Ended up settling on 15g in, 42g out (1:2.8) in 27s made for a really sweet shot using Lavazza Super Crema that was about 3 months old (stored in an airtight container).
What do you think about classic Italian espresso with 7g coffee to 30ml for single shot espresso and 14g coffee to 60ml for double shot espresso?
But, I like the 1:2 ratio, simple and delicious! 👍
7gr:30ml doesn't even called espresso. Maybe even more than lungo. Classic italian would be 20gr:30ml if we talk the same "classic italian"
And man.. that's a very low dose.. you using hand espresso(-like) maker?
@@edwickson check out "Instituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano" (Italian Espresso National Institute), it's specifically stated 7g +- 0.5g ground coffee extracted for 25seconds +- 5seconds, yield for 25ml +- 2.5ml single shot espresso.
@@leovoi I just read that 2007 reference and talked to my friend in Naples. He said people would be horrified to be served with that portion and temp. because nowadays every cafe there mostly equipped with modern lamarzocco with standard commercial portafilter which they put 20gr ground coffee to 30-40gr liquid. But you can brew anything you like. that's not my business
@@edwickson thank you for the information and reference from your friend in Naples, this is really helpful 🙏
Enjoyed this entertaining video, thanks James.
About the origin of espresso ratios....
People nowadays have no idea how little espresso knowledge was publicly available back in 2007. There was almost NO guidance available about how to pull good shots: no extraction yield theory, no commentary on the effect of changing dose or beverage yield, no decent quality filter baskets, no bottomless portafilters, etc. One had to figure it out by trial and error alone.
Some cafes dosed 7 grams, some 14-15 grams, some 25 grams. Ristrettos were all the rage. Some cafes boasted that they served only double ristrettos, while others outbragged them by claiming, "We only serve TRIPLE ristrettos." Problem was that everybody defined a single, a double, a triple, an espresso, or a ristretto differently. It was truly a communication disaster. And the Italians were absolutely no help as they stuck stubbornly to their obsolete "ml" specification for beverage output.
The brewing ratio concept started out by trying to make sense of the mess by objectively defining what lungo, normal and ristretto meant. As you point out, brewing ratios weren't able to prescribe how to pull a good shot, they were just a very useful signpost along the way.
Gradually, things improved. Jim Schulman was the first that I saw to publish rules for dialing in shots. Bottomless portafilters allowed us to improve our distribution techniques. Vince developed the refractometer and the VST precision filter baskets. Temperature control improved. Roast profiles improved.
We are living in the Golden Age of Espresso. :-)
Well said. So many levers to pull in coffee to get the desired end result. A good understanding of what they are and how they impact coffee is necessary for success.
I like using ratios for communication purposes. Obvisously I add some comment about the time as a 1:2 ratio running in 25 seconds is definitely not going to have the same strength as one running in 35 seconds. But if ratios are a good starting point to communicate preferences and teach about coffee, they definitely show their limits when people get stuck in them. Here in Paris Baristas refuse to go over a ratio of 1:2,5. I don't know what they are afraid of but it seems they are convinced that going above 2,5 is utterly wrong! I guess we need to remember that without context (or taste), numbers are meaningless.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this James!
Learn to love the process and embrace your inner scientist.
The rewards of hard-work and dedication is a great cup of coffee.
Interesting as always food for thought. Getting all the various aspects of espresso to play well together on different setups is challenging and often requires lateral thinking to find the best combination of basket type / size, dose, optimum grind size / roast which pairs well with a given espresso machines pressure and flow.
James on a serious note, please see the Rant Ratio guide... The correct rant video maintains a healthy 3:1 shouting to speaking mixture.
Thanks for the great content!
You know I have found my self only enjoying your videos on this whole site. I am not sure what your doing though i could compare the feeling I get while watching and listening to your videos to therapy! Thanks for making all this content.
This has given me a starting point and a reference so thank you.
The more I learn about coffee the more I realise there is so much more to learn. I don’t want all the knowledge just why the drink I make is good and how to go about the process of replicating it. 👍🏽
James! Thank you! You have explained the ambiguity and complexity of how we talk about espressos ratio/recipe very eloquently. This is why I'm so fascinated and excited about espresso, why I feel I'll never stop learning and experimenting to challenge the way we think and talk about it. I am looking forward to your follow up video!
Right now I'm working my recipe for French press coffee. I've worked out a perfect cup (to me) using 16oz of water. But when I try to double the water to create a larger pot for more people the ratios don't increase evenly, and I'm having difficulty identifying the problem. Needless to say I really look forward to this video where you work out your thought process. Keep up the great content!
I love this conversation.
Very very very very excited to see you dial in.
This was really a great video! I thought you would have wanted to add in how to adjust a standard 1:2 brew ratio when the shot is either too bitter or too acidic; when to raise or lower the ratio. I also noticed in your other 3 videos that sometimes you wanted to add/reduce the bean volume... can you give a generalisation when that would be more helpful than adjusting the brew ratio? You also adjusted temperature at times, although my machine can't do that, when is that method useful? Barista Hustle had a different approach of what to change to dial in a shot, first the brew ratio, then grind, then tamping, and how that affects the shot. It was very investing seeing how you dialled in the shots, but I couldn't figure out how to apply that myself. Could you make another video explaining in more detail? Thanks for all the hard work and research! Best coffee videos I've seen so far.
A fascinating (and gentle) rant. Thank you. Please, please do the video about dialling in and creating a recipe.
I can imagine James repeating “serenity now, serenity now” after this rant.
@4:35 "You've said the same thing, and you've said...seemingly lots but also nothing at all-nothing really, super useful."
This perfectly describes much of the SCAA, a good portion of the entire Specialty Coffee industry, and the majority of magazines that cover the topic. Glad to see your helping to clear the fog.
I a m finding that in a 51 mm basket home machine that 15g at a 36g yield is a nice ratio. I also roast my beans almost thru first crack and I guess you would call it city roast. Thank you for your videos!
A refreshing rant.
Thank you James. Your videos encourage me to experiment and step outside my comfort zone. Trying new things is what makes coffee, and anything culinary for that matter, enjoyable and satisfying. My coffee may take a few set backs but the result is a better understanding and maybe something tastier down the road. Thanks again.
I am a coffee consultant and I completely agree James. Not an easy answer at all and I find that’s often quite difficult to convey to the customer. “Well, where do I start?”
James, appreciate your work. Could you make a video about why you choose to time espresso from pump-on, rather than first drip? Would love to hear your thoughts in this.
Being someone who just makes coffee at home for myself, I have found out that I adjust the brewing time until I get the right balance between bitterness and acidity. This may be something between 20 and 30 s, depending on the beans. I may also adjust the temperature, higher for lighter roasts. Then, by setting the grinder and the amount of coffee, this decides the volume of the drink. Sometimes I get a larger, and sometimes I get a smaller. But by keeping the optimal brewing time, it will taste good. This is OK for me. I don't bother about recepies, or using a scale.
I agree with this a lot, maybe we need a standardized way of sharing espresso recipes visually when we communicate with one another.
1. (Dose) Basket Ratio --> coffee grounds (g): basket size (g)
2. Dose : Yield
3. Time
These 3 will help you find the grind your size along with consistent tamping pressure. Barista Hustle did a great job of explaining this.
Curious what this could look like visually for people.
Many kilos of coffee beans were sacrificed in my pursuit of fantasy numbers (like ratio and shot times) which produced poor tasting shots. I learned a lot from those adventures but i wish i heard a "rant" like this earlier.
Real life insight.
Good stuff James
I would love to see a video about dialing in! I also think it would be cool if you did like a tiered setup (budget, intermediate, high end) and went through how you would go about setting up and dialing in these new devices.
I have to say - as someone just starting to explore espressos and better pour-over shots, the amount of information available is overwhelming. Folks are eager to extol the Rao method, to worry endlessly about grind size, the number of fines and the ideal burrs. It's like there's a magic formula where the more you try to do to learn how to get started, the less certain you are that you *can*.
Frankly I'm leaning towards getting the new ROK GC combo and just being happy with what I can pull from that regardless of other opinions. Really looking forward to your dial in process - your approach has a certain humility and even-handedness that feels more honest than most.
Wow.. I never thought I would enjoy a rant this much 😄 well, you are absolutely right. My favorite roasters sell me coffee been that I am supposed to brew at a 1:2 ratio but I often myself pushing the yield a little higher (say 1:2.15) to a fully extracted shot .. I think this is definitely due to the characteristics of my home set up and quality of water ... Also, I often find it helpful to brew at a ration that's lower than the conventional 1:2 when I am going for a single origin .. unlike blends, I am able to better taste the notes associated with a certain origin when the shot is shorter than the "recommended" ratio.. ( I usually aim for a 42-44 gm of yield using 20 gm of a blend and 36-38 gm when brewing 20 gm of a single origin) ..this is what I think works for me 🙂
I'm very excited for that dialing in video! I definitely stand by your comments on the ratio debate, there are no simple universal answers if you want a great cup. Thank you for your videos, I appreciate the work you do. If you have any reading suggestions, I'd love to know!
That's a lot to think about before I've had my first cup of coffee Haha. Good video. Many people don't understand just how many variables making coffee or espresso has to it. It isn't simple like you said. Then we have stuff like Ground size is almost impossible to tell someone else how fine to ground their coffee.
Thank you for making things clearer one at a time. :)
That was the most sophisticated non-rant rant ever.
Looking forward the video where you show your dialing process. 🤘
Same thing with me... new machine ... new eureka grinder... good espresso beans... but shots don't quite taste as good as they should. Keeping it about 1:2 ... will try some other ratios today ... thanks for giving me those advises 🤙 looking forward to the video you're talking about
I use 1:5.5 for a long black, 1:3.5 for a latte, 1:2.8 for espresso, 1:2 for ristretto. 1:16.4 for pourover, 1:11 for cafe misto.
This all changes slightly if I switch from Mandheling to Kenya Masai to Laos.
The best thing is just to spend a few pounds dialing in the coffee beans you use with the equipment you have and the tastes you prefer.
Even in the service world, there is no "wrong" in coffee (beyond the extremes). It's presenting your story consumer. Your story is formed over the days and weeks you spend testing, tasting, and tossing until you discover what you feel is that perfect moment. You'll know it when it hits you.
There's much to be learned from others, but nothing can replace the process of developing a profile based on your own environment.
Great video. I was affraid you were going to say we were doing it wrong. Whew. I use the La Marzocco Strada and Line with the Auto Brew Ratio function so it is all about ratios.
I'm so glad you brought this up , and that lower dose baskets make better espresso. I often tell people the quickest way to better espresso are 15g vst baskets
What are your thoughts on this 3 years later?
@@simonmonty7171 I still think they're good for making straight espresso . For espresso going in milk , I use a slightly larger 17/18g dose
@@Acontinouslean think I'll try a 15g as well then thank you!
At 7:25- We can't wait for this video. Nice work, James!
Thank you, coffee scientist! 🤓
I think the La Marzocco subscription does a pretty good job on this front. They do provide a ratio, but also a suggested dose, liquid weight, preinfusion time (but not pressure), and a brew time to aim for. Of course it's never going to be perfect, everyone's equipment, water, and many other things are different, but I appreciate the recipe cards they provide - at least as a good starting point.
Great video James. I hope you keep up these insight videos. I know many of us out there find them extremely useful!
This is a bomb video! Please moar of this informative video! Thank you :)
Cannot wait for the video you mention.
For the people out there giving recipes for a particular coffee for a specific taste profil to customers : unless they have the exact same water chemistry (and even the same equipement you have), it is nearly impossible. Even with matched TDS and extraction. Can be close, but can't be matched. And to those customers, find yourselves a starting dose that match your basket size (equal, -1g, -2g...) and experiment! Explore, find what works the best for the drinks you wanna make, for the taste profil you enjoy!
That being said, longtime fan, so I wanted to say hi James! Hope to meet you one day!
I like to write out an actual recipe, as ratio is so simple to work out. So 18g / 36g @ 30sec. I assumed most shops and/or roasters used something similar.
I agree, I've seen a lot of people preferring to say actual amounts. Often times because this makes it easier than saying 1:2.2 if that's how the ratio works out. But, people will say 1:2 as a universal starting point and I think part of what James has uncovered here is that "it really depends".
My shop starts by knowing what the shot is supposed to be used for and the goal for what it should taste like, then use a "normal" dose/volume/time and measure the ext/TDS and taste the espresso. Then adjust parameters till the ext % and taste lines up with the purpose of the espresso. So we currently are using 22g to 50g in 28 seconds.
Interesting talk. At the end of the day, if the industry's know-it-alls intent is to try and make great espresso more accessible in the home, to regular folk, then reducing the complexities inherent in crop-to-cup is certainly key. But I agree brew ratios aren't an easy answer to a good cup of espresso.
This was a super nice video, thank you. Your videos have really increased in quality, since I started watching you (not saying the old vids are bad, but these are amazing).
And looking forward to the "practical" version of this video!
Very much looking forward to the forthcoming video that you mention you'll be making demonstrating dialling in a coffee bean and experimenting with different recipes etc
There’s often a lot of trust put into roasters and suppliers; but often a misconception when it comes to owners and how training should involve interest and a hell of a lot of variation in practice. Your comments about machines are spot on also. Roasters will often recommend recipes in an ideal world - where as unfortunately many cafes cant justify dropping money on top equipment. A simple comparison - la spaziale machines with their 53mm baskets personally I find taste better with a 17g dose in than a 58mm basket on most other standards seeing 18g +. VST baskets require finer grinds which enable better particle size. Blah blah blah. At the end of the days it’s what tastes good. In a general cafe setting 1:2 is always a great starting point for all staff with a suggestion of time change depending on under or over extracted - even getting people to understand that can be difficult; but as long as the roast and coffee is solid that should be all that you need. Having to delve much deeper is a personal journey or coffee only shop - not for a generic cafe.
Appreciate this in sight!
So interesting! If you can add a third in the series about how roast level affects recipe that would be super. Looking forward to see the next one :)
I would think it is common sense that when you ask roaster for recipe, you actually want a starting point. And I haven't met a single person who wouldn't dial their espresso primarily to taste. Looking forward to that dialling in video!
The problem with that approach is it depends how comfortable/familiar the person is why the process and I've seen lots of newer users then have to go onto online forums and ask "I got this recipe, why isn't it working" and having to be further troubleshooted & educated on the process. But someone really familiar with making espresso will take it "as just a starting point".
Oh ! I couldn’t agree more. How I wish there was an easy answer. I bought my very first espresso machine not to long ago which is a breville dual boiler and been struggling Sooooo much due to not knowing what exactly I’m tasting and how to adjust for it. I bought some great coffee I love and tried a straight shot of it at the coffee house I buy my coffee at and loved the very nutty flavor, but not able to duplicate that at home. So yes it’s very hard to dial in a coffee you love and a coffee you know of the potential it has but not able to reach that point at home is extremely frustrating
Great topic for great day! Thanks!
Well done, sir, well done!
Despite the frustration of realizing the variables in this process are many, I still feel as if I'm making some headway. Just knowing that you don't know is knowing nonetheless, if that makes any sense.
Clearly, there is science in this endeavor to make the quintessential cup of coffee, but it is, and always will be, more of an art form. Too bad more folks don't spend this much time on their diet, we'd all be a lot healthier for it.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.
What about Moka ratio & recipes? How do these differ from espresso recipes?
I use a Bialetti Brikka two cup moka and usually just fill the hopper to the edge, which amounts to appr. 16 gramms of coffee grind.
Moka coffee is not espresso It is its own method. The brewing pressure is dynamic and less than espresso. the grind is also slightly coarser than espresso but finer than drip coffee. For Moka a good starting point is 1.5 g coffee to 60 ml of water. the baskets for Moka are designed to be filled to the rim with the correct grind, and never tamped. Heat the water slowly with the lid open, when the liquid reaches the bottom of the pour spout remove it from the heat. ( contrary to popular belief, it should never hiss and spit. if it spits and hisses the coffee is over-extracting and burning. There should be a small amount of water remaining in the boiler.
Great video! This episode reminds me of HBsJim’s video “who should buy a Strega” where he talks about a panama esmarelda geisha, and points out some similar points
I think the easy answer is to just do what tastes right. If you make a shot and it seems a little light then add more next time, or vice versa, people should be able to figure out how to make what they like with a little trial and error, but giving them a general understanding of the variable s might help. I like good coffee, but I’ll also drink Nescafé when offered. If you like it then it’s good.
I want to see you go tactical in here. Bring your stuff, few sample bean from different parts of the world, bring your grinder on camera and get to it... dose it for all of us enjoyment. Show what those ratios on the outside coffee packages print really mean to you. Cheers
amazing video, ty
This was really useful - thanks James. I would also be very interested to see your process for dialling in a new coffee. I’m looking forward to the video!
Very helpful!
So true, so true, good that I found your channel! 🙌
James, you have to be able to answer that "not so easy question" that being, I have invested in new kit, now get me to a great espresso quickly! you won't like that but honestly,, too much faffing - get that elixir to us NOW
Thanks James for that tid bit of info, I'm looking forward to your other videos.
I agree that there doesn't seem to be a short-and-sweet answer between simply providing a ratio and providing a load of very prescriptive information. What I will say as an employee of Clive Coffee (where teaching people to pull espresso at home is essentially the name of the game) is that a ratio is a very good starting point. With the ratio, and maybe a few other bits of information, you can get someone in the ballpark. But knowing that the ratio is important further implies the importance of a slew of other variables. In my opinion it is the fact that brew ratios are unexpected, semi-intuitive, and incomplete that makes them an excellent starting point.
From there, it's up to the individual. You can try to push the ins and outs of brewing coffee in someones face all you want, but that doesn't mean they'll listen. We provide a "standard" recipe as well (time, dose, and yield) which works well for most coffees and it's simple enough to convey quickly as a further starting point. If you accept that some portion of people are curious and will inevitably explore if you set out a path in front of them and that some portion aren't and won't, you may come to realize that packing all that information down isn't *entirely* necessary.
Teach people to make decent coffee fast so that the curious retain the curiosity without getting frustrated and so that the people who just want a damn coffee get their damn coffee (within a reasonable margin of error in perpetuity).
That's not to say, of course, that the people who don't chase down curiosity should be left in the dust. They simply tend to have a different set of expectations and priorities, and that's just fine by me.
Oops, I wrote quite a bit. I think about this sort of thing a lot as my job requires it, and I'm rarely *asked* to comment on it, haha.
After doing expresso for many years, after roasting coffee at home for many years, what I learned was that the data on home barista was indeed useful at putting a person "in the ballpark" of what to shoot for in dose, grind, and what's in the cup. But what I eventually realized is that brewing espresso is like playing a musical instrument. The better you know your gear, the better you can make it work. Learn how to make the shots on your rig sing on lighter roasts, on darker roasts, natural process, washed, whatever, and what changes you have to make to make each of them work. It will build knowledge, skill, confidence, and may save you money knowing you can pull amazing shots on not terribly expensive gear (relatively speaking).
Very interesting.
I was always very curious to why our roaster suggested the typical 2:1 ratio when it was clearly not ideal for something like a flat while in our shops.
Thanks a lot for the video, I normally brew filter coffee and over time I also noticed that not all equal ratios have been created equal.
I would love to see how you dial in the dose for a V60 of a particular coffee and a particular ratio (e.g. 100g water to 6g of coffee). Espresso baskets are somewhat more constrained than the filter equipment and it would be interesting to learn more on what is the thinking process of coffee experts like you. :)
Really looking forward to that video, of you going through your process of coming up with a recipe
Very thought provoking video - thank you!