Ran into a few builds running Eldritch evolution with Geological Appraiser. It makes the combo much faster, because it guarantees a Geological Appraiser hits Eldritch Evolution to go into the six mana Discover 5 dinosaur. It goes off turn 3 pretty easily.
@@Помста To be honest I didn't even look at Seth's decklist. I've seen a bunch of variants on the deck and just assumed it was more or less on the same mission.
@@aritargownikpioneer subreddit was saying that it’s actually better to be using quint instead because of how the counterplay works for each, but they’re still really similar. Quint version is way better against something like rakdos midrange than appraiser is
This seems like it was made when the combo was being talked about as a janky thing(like in your short about it) instead of being the more solved Discover combo. Still, kinda funny to see it as an Against The Odds
The idea that a 1 card 5-mana instant win combo with a 1 card 6-mana instant win combo backup plan (albeit with deckbuilding restrictions) could be perceived as janky is funny to me.
@@Zerothas People just weren't sure how to build it, at the time of the short the backup plan wasnt even a thing and the idea that you can't play anything below 5MV and 8~12 cards in your deck do literally nothing is a janky concept. As it got a backup plan, ramp, and decent interaction it became pretty much Splinter Twin lol
@@DeepCDiva It's a one card four mana splinter twin. Geological Appraiser hits Discover 3 for Eldritch Evolution which gets the six mana Discover 5 dino which either gets a clone, Quintorius, or Eldritch Evo.
@@Помста how does it work exactly? I can see that you can keep going if you hit the Eldritch Evolution from the Discoveries of either Geological Appraiser or Trumpeting Carnosaur. But if you hit Eldritch Evolution with the discovery of Quintorius Kand, you don't have a creature to sac. Doesn't that fizzle the combo? If I understand correctly, there is also a risk that you run out of Eldritch Evolutions before you run out of Geological Appraisers during the combo, if you hit them in the wrong order. Then the Combo would fizzle on the Geological Appraiser that has no Discovery targets. Am I messing this up?
Yeah, that one does work with the mana value restriction, although needing eight mana to combo off is rough. Still might be worth some sideboard slots though.
31:22 I think it was actually a mega brain move to let you get the first copy off. You rolled into a clever impersonator so if they killed Quintorious you could just copy Nissa or ren, by waiting for a spark double they are able to fizzle all value all at once
The thing is, you don't even need to exactly counter it to disrupt the combo. Any removal spell will just fizzle the clone spell, and control just got a very good new one in get lost in addition to the previous ones they alrdy have. The winning list is playing 4 thought distortions in the sideboard and I think that really speaks to how bad the control matchup is lol.
Yeah, although the awkward part is they can just counter what we discover into, so if they have a counter it can probably still fizzle the combo (although at least we'd have a big DIno to beat down with).
This deck is so sweet, thanks for making the video. I've been playing a similar deck in Standard since LCI release and dominating my local standard events, bringing back cascade was SUCH a mistake.
the black virtue is pretty good in the deck, since it not only is early game removal, but also can allow us to reanimate the carnasaurus to start the combo late game, and the crab from kamigawa (IDR the name) is also pretty good, channeling it for a mana leak
@@Pyrotro Discover 4 would miss the Virtue entirely, as it only checks the mana value of the base card while exiling. It just can't cast the adventure if the adventure is too large (for example, Bramble Familiar). Virtue of Persistence would be a decent option for the deck.
I ran into this deck on ladder! I was on mono-white soldiers and managed to stop the combo before it went completely off the rails thanks to Thalia’s taxing effect, ironic considering the Thalia-Quntorious meme going around lol. Opponent discovered into Mythos, but Thalia’s tax still has to be paid on Discovered spells, so it had to go to hand, giving enough time to finish them off.
I definitely love playing this deck over the one with the appraiser. The Appraiser version is just too consistent. This one is fun and more fair/interact able with more countermagic that hits Quintorius. Really have had a lot of fun with it.
From a design standpoint, I genuinely wonder what the motivation was to bring cascade back. Making every match play out the same has repeatedly been stated as being the single biggest sin a mechanic can commit, and that's all that cascade does, again and again and again. Was it hubris? Did they think they could somehow make it work this time? Not that I think this deck is broken or anything, but it would be pretty interesting to see what goes on in those design meetings.
If Discover meant you had to hit a spell EXACTLY the cmc of the discover number, it would be a lot more balanced... But guess WotC just forgot how good cascade is. Happens to the best of us
This is exactly the kind of deck I love. I had most of the cards already, so easy build. I love that while the mechanic is the same for Carnosaur or Kand, the deck has more than one way to victory.
You mentioned the deck having issues with counterspells, and it feels like Chimil is a great fit since it also Discovers every end step. Could leave an elephant sitting in the open to be sniped, but it feels worth a try.
40:00 Just Consign the Leyline and ult a Quint, right? Am I missing something? I mean, doesn't really matter with all those tokens and planeswalkers - it was basically garbage time at that point - but still, seems like a pretty straightforward victory
Very surprised we didnt see Horned Loch-Whake as one of the removal spells. It's a direct upgrade over Warrant//Warden and is significantly better than many of the other spells chosen. Anyway, great video!
I agree, this is a legit deck. It feels like a meta choice type of deck. That one super annoying deck that is 65/35 if you're prepared for it and 20/80 if you're not. Keruga is free in this deck right? You are taking off turn four pretty frequently so you'll get it to your hand many games. It's nearly always a vanilla 5/4 in the deck, but every once in a while you'll buy yourself a turn. Thought Distortion might be better than Chandra against control (4BB, sorcery can't be countered, target opponent discards all noncreature, nonland cards). Don't forget that you can clone your opponent's stuff with two of your spells. I'd love to see you stream this again in the coming months with some tuning!
i think „discovery//dispersal“ would give this deck a solid cantrip that works with discover to improve consistency. being also a lategame interactive spell is just a bonus at this point
For counters, I think Thryx, the Sudden Storm would be great sideboard tech for this deck. It's legal in historic, it costs 5, it has flash so it can get around a counterspell against control, and it makes both Quintorius and Carnosaur uncounterable.
Very funny combo but I feel like this is the kind of MTGGoldfish video where for my own sanity, I should probably avoid the explorer queue for the next few days…
I dont know if you read these, but you were asking about a way to get around counterspells and a cavern of souls naming dinosaur could make your carnosaur uncounterable. Hope this helps
Aren't there a bunch of split cards that let you fight countermagic? Commit//Memory, Expansion//Explosion, Failure//Comply, Reduce//Rubble, Mirrorshell Crab? I don't know how good any of those would play, but I do know Warrant//Warden is not very good. Great stuff as always.
Is it worth it to play Expansion//Explosion? It has a CMC of 6 but the copy site could be played for 2 to copy the opponents counterspells, essentially allowing you to play a counter?
Rewatching this video 3 months later. A good new addition to the clone army showed up. Surgical Metamorph. Its an alchemy card but its a 4 mana clone card that has the alchemy effect "this spell costs 1 less if you werent the starting player" its clone effect is straight better than Clever impersonator in that it can become lands as well. Which is an incredibly useful line of text. In match 3 of your games you made the mention of "if this was mythos...it would be fine because we could copy a land" The surgical metamorph allowing you to play it as a land would of saved your game. it having the alchemy ability that reduces its cost based on you not being the starting player is also really useful. its not uncommon for decks to want to spend 3 mana on a ramp spell that gives them a single tapped land. In this case its even better than that as if you're on the draw you have a 3 mana ramp spell that gives you an untapped land. Which is extremely useful in and game that Goes into top deck mode. Imagine you're playing a U/G deck and your deck got shut down to the point that you need to hit an answer or a blocker on your next draw to keep from dying next turn. then your heart of the cards draw. is a cultivate. Welp thats it you concede. now same scenario same deck, but this time you top deck Surgical Metamorph. And you're able to instead of getting a land you Copy their Biggest unit buying you a turn with a single blocker. Or even copy their Lilliana Planeswalker and force them to sacrifice their two creatures, or copy their Teferi and bounce their biggest creature. its not a PERFECT solution but it can be all three: a 3 or 4cmc: 1-land ramp spell, Combo piece, or a Tempo swinging Copy spell. Recently i started using it in my timeless Agent of treachery deck to teach arena zoomers why Agent was banned. the Incredible tempo swings i get from playing an agent onto the battlefield while my opponent has 1 untapped land and i have 9 mana total (lands+mana rocks) and i steal the untapped land, then copy the agent with Surgical Metamorph to steal another threat. Forcing my opponent to have the answer to my agents or risk me comboing off with more shapeshifters. In addition my deck runs Reflections of littjara naming "Shapeshifter" along side the alchemy card "snowborn simulacra" Being able to play turn 3 Powerstone shard > t4: Metamorph (copying the shard)> t5 Agent > t6 Reflection + Shapeshiters. > Snowborn Simulacra targeting the powerstones + all Surgical metamorphs on the field. Every surgical i play after Reflection hits copies 1 reflection and 1 agent then the following one will copy 1 reflection + 2 other targets....etc etc...
Seth you could run the version of discovery that uses the 4 drop discover 3 and eldritch evolution and Glasspool Mimic to discover into Carnisaur and then finish with the last Eldritch Evo to get a Doomskar Titan for +1/+0 and haste
chimil might be a good way to fight through counters. It is 6 mana, but like you said in the very long matchup that is control, you should have time to try to slam one or at least force your opponent to counter/tap-out
I think match 4 shows that Seth tunneled so hard on the combo kill that he forgot how combat worked. He had lethal the turn he was dithering how he had no way to cast a spell from exile and found a way to lose that lethal XD
Feel like the deck should play the black virtue to have some removal/lifegain early as well as additional win con with the enchantment side reanimating big dinos. Alsk maybe just more adventures in general to have additional quintorius triggers in case they stop the discover somehow.
@@Pyrotro discover only cares if about mana value so you can’t cast the adventure side of virtue of persistence, since the non-adventure side is more if anything it would just go in the hand instead of casting it
@@otakuamerican5190 Discover 4 would miss the Virtue entirely, as it only checks the mana value of the base card while exiling. It just can't cast the adventure if the adventure is too large (for example, Bramble Familiar). Virtue of Persistence would be a decent option for the deck.
For six mana you can cast Thought Distortion to clear the way for next turn. But, opponent could top deck a counter. So give that whatever odds you think appropriate. For a seven mana you can improve your odds by having Emergence Zone out so you can cast Thought Distortion at the end of opponent’s turn. They could have something like Mirrorshell that Thought Distortion wouldn’t touch so still not a sure thing.
I have also fought against a version that runs the 4 drop red creature that disovers 3 with eldritch evolutions for carnosaur and a haste enabler, running 8 3 drop copy effects.
Kinda messes up the combo but Scytheclaw Raptor deals 4 if the opponent casts a spell on your turn. Yes, it punishes you but, you can use binding and removal on your turn. I know it messes up the discover combo but it’s just a thought
Someone played their version of this against me on arena explorer. They brought in thought distortion to wreck my handful counters plan. Next time I’ll bring in leyline of sanctity against this deck game two.
Against the Sultai control deck, you could have won immediately by bouncing the manland after declaring attackers with your vigilance land instead of during your main phase. 😁
Could maybe run Chimil The Inner Sun? It's over your Discover limit and it makes spells uncounterable and could have you discover into Quintorious at random on your end step.
This might be my favorite deck in recent years. I loved Quintorius, Field Historian in Strixhaven and had a pretty aggressive Lorehold deck at the time. So happy he became a recurred character in the story and is popping back up on this pw card in Lost Caverns.
Funny to think about how the Mono White Deck didn't see any of the combo and was probably super confused about what Seth was doing. Really fun looking deck though
Horned Loch Whale seems like a good fit here? It doesn't break the combo, and gives a better solution to aggro since they have to re-draw whatever you bounce, instead of them just recasting?
I think it's a punt not having Keruga as the companion here. It's a free extra card that acts as a blocker/alt win con/ removal fodder that draws you cards on EBT.
Since color isn't a real issue In this deck (because of the triomes and the treasures) isn't the 6 mana mass duress from hand and grave an auto include in this against control? (Forgot the card's name though 😅)
Couldn't you have just won at 39:00 when you drew the consign? You bounce the leyline back to hand, which would result in the consign going to the graveyard. You could then ultimate the Spark Double Quintorius to cast it again targeting the Nissa and getting 4 Quintorius static ability triggers.
Like this way more than the 4 mana discover deck cuz that's so one dimensional. this isnt muuuch better in that department but it definitely feels like there's way more room to play around interaction and go at it from different angles than just relying on resolving one 4 drop or bust.
30:00 Reason they didn't do it last time was because it was a clever impersonator which allowed you to copy their stuff. Also would the crab that cycles be able to be played in this deck?
I think the real question is if there is a way to fight counterspells with this deck building restrictions. Becuase the combo IS strong, but it just hard looses to an opponent holding counters, or a way to go more into amidrange value plan. That sultai game made me think that maybe you do sometimes play this as a midrange? like playing dinos and copying leyline bindings and creating elephant tokens might there against an opponent that wont let you combo
A one-card combo is pretty strong; the deckbuilding restriction is very real, though, and I'm guessing you have basically NO game against control. It could be that just "survive to turn 5 and play an elephant or dinosaur" is a reasonable gameplan in Pioneer/Explorer.
Didn't watch the entire video given that I've already played a tonne of basically the same deck, but two things: 1) Yes, the deck is good. Like many all-in decks it does have some weakness to sideboarding (as opposed to a deck like Izzet Wizards that's not going to lose to something like Stone Brain), but it can be built to have good control elements and single card OTKs are pretty great game enders. 2) I don't know if it came up in the video but it's not enough to simply resolve Quint. If your opponent can remove it before the Clone effect resolves, it stops the combo. It's important to know the instant speed interaction your opponent might be playing (ie. Get Lost in white, Sheoldred's Edict in black). 3) If you're playing against Quint combo it's important to keep mana open, even as a bluff. Tapping out on a turn they could go off is giving them the green light; I've won plenty of games against opponents that seemed like they must have disruption, simply due to them tapping out on a potential combo turn. Also be aware of when the Quint player is probably baiting you. I play Keruga as a companion and I've seen people waste important removal/counterspells on it, when for the most part they could save it for Carno/Quint and win an easy game.
I wonder if maybe this deck preys on the 4 cmc version of the deck by playing interaction on 3 and/or 4, then goong off on 4 or 5. Might be too hard to find good interaction that doesnt mess with the combo...but maybe not?🤔
It's always fun to catch an opponent into unexpected combo. It's almost like they don't notice the elephant in the room.
i love you thank you
have a like you absolute legend
I hate you, thank you
*ba dum tss*
Pure angry upvote
Against the odds or completely with the odds?
Ran into a few builds running Eldritch evolution with Geological Appraiser. It makes the combo much faster, because it guarantees a Geological Appraiser hits Eldritch Evolution to go into the six mana Discover 5 dinosaur. It goes off turn 3 pretty easily.
@@Помста To be honest I didn't even look at Seth's decklist. I've seen a bunch of variants on the deck and just assumed it was more or less on the same mission.
@@Помста Ohh thats actuaally pretty smart. But running eldritch evo doesnt ruins your latter cascades?
Depends entirely on how the meta shifts. HOWEVER it can be suuuper unfair in best of 1
@@aritargownikpioneer subreddit was saying that it’s actually better to be using quint instead because of how the counterplay works for each, but they’re still really similar. Quint version is way better against something like rakdos midrange than appraiser is
40:05 you missed lethal, the nissa lands have vigilance so you could have attacked then before blocks tapped the land to bounce the cottage
Ohh, you are right. Oops!
This seems like it was made when the combo was being talked about as a janky thing(like in your short about it) instead of being the more solved Discover combo.
Still, kinda funny to see it as an Against The Odds
The idea that a 1 card 5-mana instant win combo with a 1 card 6-mana instant win combo backup plan (albeit with deckbuilding restrictions) could be perceived as janky is funny to me.
@@Zerothas People just weren't sure how to build it, at the time of the short the backup plan wasnt even a thing and the idea that you can't play anything below 5MV and 8~12 cards in your deck do literally nothing is a janky concept.
As it got a backup plan, ramp, and decent interaction it became pretty much Splinter Twin lol
Yeah if these matches were filmed within the last week it would be matches against the 4 mana instant win deck over and over again LOL
@@DeepCDiva
It's a one card four mana splinter twin. Geological Appraiser hits Discover 3 for Eldritch Evolution which gets the six mana Discover 5 dino which either gets a clone, Quintorius, or Eldritch Evo.
@@Помста how does it work exactly? I can see that you can keep going if you hit the Eldritch Evolution from the Discoveries of either Geological Appraiser or Trumpeting Carnosaur. But if you hit Eldritch Evolution with the discovery of Quintorius Kand, you don't have a creature to sac. Doesn't that fizzle the combo? If I understand correctly, there is also a risk that you run out of Eldritch Evolutions before you run out of Geological Appraisers during the combo, if you hit them in the wrong order. Then the Combo would fizzle on the Geological Appraiser that has no Discovery targets. Am I messing this up?
For counters, Mirrorshell Crab seems like the obvious counterspell to run.
Yeah, that one does work with the mana value restriction, although needing eight mana to combo off is rough. Still might be worth some sideboard slots though.
Thryx the Sudden Storm would help with quintorius, but not for the subsequent clones.
That win against mono green lmao…not quiet a super skill intensive victory but so satisfying 😂
It always feels good to beat that deck, even if it did require getting super lucky :)
The skill of drawing the exact card that you needed.
Seth is Yugi of magic
Seth in every against the odds video ever since I started watching in 2015:
"Is this deck actually good?"
:'D
Keep the Pioneer/Explorer content coming.
Maybe a creature land or two would help with the control match up as you at least have *something* to put some pressure on?
Agreed, especially since so many lands enter tapped already
You can also run keruga literally for free
@@demiurge2501 would you be able to even with the split cards?
@@ther3aper561 split cards count as the combined cost of both sides for mana value so they should be fine with Keruga
@@1997Awesomedude That's what I was wondering, thank you!
Quintorius Kand is my favorite new historic brawl deck, mostly built around his static ability.
31:22 I think it was actually a mega brain move to let you get the first copy off. You rolled into a clever impersonator so if they killed Quintorious you could just copy Nissa or ren, by waiting for a spark double they are able to fizzle all value all at once
Shoutout to Seth predicting that Quintorius was gas in the podcast. Tbh I thought he was trippin, glad I was wrong
he is the voice of reason in a world with Crims and Richards.
Seth's misreads are always crazy, but someone explain to me how he gets "Carnosaur" to be "Ceredon".
Yeah he keeps calling it Ceredon. I am like why Seth. It is a Carnosaur.
Gield of Guin
It made my brain turn to pudding
He’s the product of the American public school system
Hearing ceradon instead of carnasaur every time was rough. Really cool deck though! And that top deck- wow.
It’s such a bizarre pronunciation I’m wondering if it’s on purpose to further engagement and comments on the video.
@@rootfish2671 In that case, it worked! Congrats Seth!
I think 2 Cavern of Souls for the Dino might be the trick to beating control. Maybe not beating but might help.
Hmmmmm maybe, they can always counter the discover trigger, but maybe they side out removal
@@dougisacat Yea, they likely counter whatever you discover, but at least there's a dino lol
The thing is, you don't even need to exactly counter it to disrupt the combo. Any removal spell will just fizzle the clone spell, and control just got a very good new one in get lost in addition to the previous ones they alrdy have. The winning list is playing 4 thought distortions in the sideboard and I think that really speaks to how bad the control matchup is lol.
Yeah, although the awkward part is they can just counter what we discover into, so if they have a counter it can probably still fizzle the combo (although at least we'd have a big DIno to beat down with).
@@MTGGoldfish Yea that was my thought. Probably doesn't increase the odds by much
That top deck at 10:45 was insane
Better lucky than good ;)
This deck is so sweet, thanks for making the video. I've been playing a similar deck in Standard since LCI release and dominating my local standard events, bringing back cascade was SUCH a mistake.
Would be awesome to know your list if you find time!
It's hard to believe they didn't see this coming. So, toxic for profit?
the black virtue is pretty good in the deck, since it not only is early game removal, but also can allow us to reanimate the carnasaurus to start the combo late game, and the crab from kamigawa (IDR the name) is also pretty good, channeling it for a mana leak
Channel works fine, but sadly Adventures count towards Discover. It will unfortunately break the combo if he was to run them.
@@Pyrotro Discover 4 would miss the Virtue entirely, as it only checks the mana value of the base card while exiling. It just can't cast the adventure if the adventure is too large (for example, Bramble Familiar).
Virtue of Persistence would be a decent option for the deck.
@@Scherezad_ Really, cause I've had discover 3s hit grabby giant cause of its adventure I feel like
It's a good thing that you didn't forget to add the real Quintoriuses this time 😅
I ran into this deck on ladder! I was on mono-white soldiers and managed to stop the combo before it went completely off the rails thanks to Thalia’s taxing effect, ironic considering the Thalia-Quntorious meme going around lol. Opponent discovered into Mythos, but Thalia’s tax still has to be paid on Discovered spells, so it had to go to hand, giving enough time to finish them off.
Shefet Monitor would be cool in this deck. It rampant growths when you cycle and dodges discover 4.
You can't give a Planeswalker trample!
Saffron: "Hold my Beer."
Spot on.😂
I definitely love playing this deck over the one with the appraiser. The Appraiser version is just too consistent. This one is fun and more fair/interact able with more countermagic that hits Quintorius. Really have had a lot of fun with it.
I shook with excitement with the lucky draw at the end of match 1.
From a design standpoint, I genuinely wonder what the motivation was to bring cascade back.
Making every match play out the same has repeatedly been stated as being the single biggest sin a mechanic can commit, and that's all that cascade does, again and again and again.
Was it hubris? Did they think they could somehow make it work this time? Not that I think this deck is broken or anything, but it would be pretty interesting to see what goes on in those design meetings.
Yeah. Watching this I'm just continually going "why did they think this was a good idea"
If Discover meant you had to hit a spell EXACTLY the cmc of the discover number, it would be a lot more balanced... But guess WotC just forgot how good cascade is.
Happens to the best of us
@@lelandgill3631No lol. It would be much better because you could play cheap interaction and still get your combo
To increase demand of the new cards and to make money.
This is exactly the kind of deck I love. I had most of the cards already, so easy build. I love that while the mechanic is the same for Carnosaur or Kand, the deck has more than one way to victory.
@39:48 you had the win because the lands have vigilance! if you declare attacks, hold priority and bounce the creature land with skyturtle, you win!
29:25 should have consigned the nissa here I think, if they tap in response you can just combo off in main phase 2
14:30 you are supposed to target a Trumpeting Carnosaur with Mythos of Illuna. That way you have more clones to hit and you still get your drain in.
The fact that you top decked that quint was totally against the odds. Couldn't ask for a more fitting end.
You mentioned the deck having issues with counterspells, and it feels like Chimil is a great fit since it also Discovers every end step. Could leave an elephant sitting in the open to be sniped, but it feels worth a try.
Discover lets you choose to put the thing in your hand instead of casting it.
@@Jesin00 Of course! I forgot that because Seth's sitting over the options, so I didn't see him choosing here :D
40:00
Just Consign the Leyline and ult a Quint, right? Am I missing something?
I mean, doesn't really matter with all those tokens and planeswalkers - it was basically garbage time at that point - but still, seems like a pretty straightforward victory
Very surprised we didnt see Horned Loch-Whake as one of the removal spells. It's a direct upgrade over Warrant//Warden and is significantly better than many of the other spells chosen. Anyway, great video!
I agree, this is a legit deck. It feels like a meta choice type of deck. That one super annoying deck that is 65/35 if you're prepared for it and 20/80 if you're not.
Keruga is free in this deck right? You are taking off turn four pretty frequently so you'll get it to your hand many games. It's nearly always a vanilla 5/4 in the deck, but every once in a while you'll buy yourself a turn.
Thought Distortion might be better than Chandra against control (4BB, sorcery can't be countered, target opponent discards all noncreature, nonland cards).
Don't forget that you can clone your opponent's stuff with two of your spells.
I'd love to see you stream this again in the coming months with some tuning!
i think „discovery//dispersal“ would give this deck a solid cantrip that works with discover to improve consistency. being also a lategame interactive spell is just a bonus at this point
@5:50 i just said, out loud, to an empty room: "that's the stupidest thing i've ever seen" all while laughing like a maniac. what an epic jank brew
For counters, I think Thryx, the Sudden Storm would be great sideboard tech for this deck. It's legal in historic, it costs 5, it has flash so it can get around a counterspell against control, and it makes both Quintorius and Carnosaur uncounterable.
Very funny combo but I feel like this is the kind of MTGGoldfish video where for my own sanity, I should probably avoid the explorer queue for the next few days…
I dont know if you read these, but you were asking about a way to get around counterspells and a cavern of souls naming dinosaur could make your carnosaur uncounterable. Hope this helps
Thought Distortion? Yeah, I too thought this should be a good option.
Aren't there a bunch of split cards that let you fight countermagic? Commit//Memory, Expansion//Explosion, Failure//Comply, Reduce//Rubble, Mirrorshell Crab? I don't know how good any of those would play, but I do know Warrant//Warden is not very good.
Great stuff as always.
Is it worth it to play Expansion//Explosion? It has a CMC of 6 but the copy site could be played for 2 to copy the opponents counterspells, essentially allowing you to play a counter?
29:30 I think you could have just Consigned the Nissa so they didn't have 2 mana?
That was my thought. Consign nissa, move to main phase 2
Win
Rewatching this video 3 months later. A good new addition to the clone army showed up. Surgical Metamorph. Its an alchemy card but its a 4 mana clone card that has the alchemy effect "this spell costs 1 less if you werent the starting player" its clone effect is straight better than Clever impersonator in that it can become lands as well. Which is an incredibly useful line of text. In match 3 of your games you made the mention of "if this was mythos...it would be fine because we could copy a land" The surgical metamorph allowing you to play it as a land would of saved your game. it having the alchemy ability that reduces its cost based on you not being the starting player is also really useful. its not uncommon for decks to want to spend 3 mana on a ramp spell that gives them a single tapped land. In this case its even better than that as if you're on the draw you have a 3 mana ramp spell that gives you an untapped land. Which is extremely useful in and game that Goes into top deck mode. Imagine you're playing a U/G deck and your deck got shut down to the point that you need to hit an answer or a blocker on your next draw to keep from dying next turn. then your heart of the cards draw. is a cultivate. Welp thats it you concede. now same scenario same deck, but this time you top deck Surgical Metamorph. And you're able to instead of getting a land you Copy their Biggest unit buying you a turn with a single blocker. Or even copy their Lilliana Planeswalker and force them to sacrifice their two creatures, or copy their Teferi and bounce their biggest creature. its not a PERFECT solution but it can be all three: a 3 or 4cmc: 1-land ramp spell, Combo piece, or a Tempo swinging Copy spell.
Recently i started using it in my timeless Agent of treachery deck to teach arena zoomers why Agent was banned. the Incredible tempo swings i get from playing an agent onto the battlefield while my opponent has 1 untapped land and i have 9 mana total (lands+mana rocks) and i steal the untapped land, then copy the agent with Surgical Metamorph to steal another threat. Forcing my opponent to have the answer to my agents or risk me comboing off with more shapeshifters. In addition my deck runs Reflections of littjara naming "Shapeshifter" along side the alchemy card "snowborn simulacra" Being able to play turn 3 Powerstone shard > t4: Metamorph (copying the shard)> t5 Agent > t6 Reflection + Shapeshiters. > Snowborn Simulacra targeting the powerstones + all Surgical metamorphs on the field. Every surgical i play after Reflection hits copies 1 reflection and 1 agent then the following one will copy 1 reflection + 2 other targets....etc etc...
Seth you could run the version of discovery that uses the 4 drop discover 3 and eldritch evolution and Glasspool Mimic to discover into Carnisaur and then finish with the last Eldritch Evo to get a Doomskar Titan for +1/+0 and haste
Just want to say first opponent's name was Licid. The best creature type
This deck is literally Missisippi River deck, but for Pioneer. In legacy you may put Force of Will and lands that grant us two mana for sacrifice
I've had to preboard my control deck because I've been playing against this or the geologist version for 60% of my games lol
chimil might be a good way to fight through counters. It is 6 mana, but like you said in the very long matchup that is control, you should have time to try to slam one or at least force your opponent to counter/tap-out
Thought Distortion against control. At least that's my thought. That takes care of people holding counters as well as those holding removal.
For anti-countermagic, running Mirrorshell Crab could do some work. Not unconditional, but is versatile.
I think match 4 shows that Seth tunneled so hard on the combo kill that he forgot how combat worked. He had lethal the turn he was dithering how he had no way to cast a spell from exile and found a way to lose that lethal XD
There was a food token and a blocker. I think he had to use his creature land to remove the blocker. Where's the win? Am I missing it?
This commenter tunneled so hard on backseating Seth that they forgot how food worked XD
Food is a thing mate
@@ekiM2K both lands were vigilant because of nissa. Attack with both then bounce the blocker.
He can attack and then bounce before blocks.
10:45 Seth, better known as SaffronPharaoh... Straight up heart of the cards draw.
Which deck wins? One elephant, or one-hundred rhinos?
always love the called shots - 11:00
it’s probably better to play a few less clones to slightly up the interaction package.
These titles, STRAIGHT TO THE POINT = ---> •
Sickest match one in a while... what heartbreak.
Feel like the deck should play the black virtue to have some removal/lifegain early as well as additional win con with the enchantment side reanimating big dinos. Alsk maybe just more adventures in general to have additional quintorius triggers in case they stop the discover somehow.
Sadly, Adventures count towards Discover. Meaning it can break the search of he runs that.
@@Pyrotro discover only cares if about mana value so you can’t cast the adventure side of virtue of persistence, since the non-adventure side is more if anything it would just go in the hand instead of casting it
@@otakuamerican5190 Discover 4 would miss the Virtue entirely, as it only checks the mana value of the base card while exiling. It just can't cast the adventure if the adventure is too large (for example, Bramble Familiar).
Virtue of Persistence would be a decent option for the deck.
@@Scherezad_ you right my b
Honestly been brewing with quinterious, sheoldred apocalypse and beseech the mirror. I call it pain 2 gain 2
For six mana you can cast Thought Distortion to clear the way for next turn. But, opponent could top deck a counter. So give that whatever odds you think appropriate. For a seven mana you can improve your odds by having Emergence Zone out so you can cast Thought Distortion at the end of opponent’s turn. They could have something like Mirrorshell that Thought Distortion wouldn’t touch so still not a sure thing.
I have also fought against a version that runs the 4 drop red creature that disovers 3 with eldritch evolutions for carnosaur and a haste enabler, running 8 3 drop copy effects.
These combo decks are everywhere now.
Around minute 30:00 couldn't you bounce nissa at the end of opponent's turn to deny them the extra mana during your turn and win?
no they'd still have 4 mana for the counter spell unless they had been baited into countering the bounce spell
At 29:54 you stated "Quopy Quintorius" and I petition this hereby be the name of this deck.
Kinda messes up the combo but Scytheclaw Raptor deals 4 if the opponent casts a spell on your turn. Yes, it punishes you but, you can use binding and removal on your turn. I know it messes up the discover combo but it’s just a thought
Glad we could show mono green devotion who the real elephant in the room is
Someone played their version of this against me on arena explorer. They brought in thought distortion to wreck my handful counters plan. Next time I’ll bring in leyline of sanctity against this deck game two.
Against the Sultai control deck, you could have won immediately by bouncing the manland after declaring attackers with your vigilance land instead of during your main phase. 😁
Could maybe run Chimil The Inner Sun? It's over your Discover limit and it makes spells uncounterable and could have you discover into Quintorious at random on your end step.
That was sweet as usual Seth. Have a Happy Thanksgiving!
Happy Thanksgiving!
This might be my favorite deck in recent years. I loved Quintorius, Field Historian in Strixhaven and had a pretty aggressive Lorehold deck at the time. So happy he became a recurred character in the story and is popping back up on this pw card in Lost Caverns.
I bet Geo Appraiser and Trumpeting Carnosaur and maybe Quintorius are gonna get banned from explorer
0% chance
Funny to think about how the Mono White Deck didn't see any of the combo and was probably super confused about what Seth was doing.
Really fun looking deck though
Did you get a new camera? Or new lighting? Looks great! Also great deck lol
Horned Loch Whale seems like a good fit here? It doesn't break the combo, and gives a better solution to aggro since they have to re-draw whatever you bounce, instead of them just recasting?
29:54 "Quopy Quintoroius" Best Freudian slip ever.
I think it's a punt not having Keruga as the companion here. It's a free extra card that acts as a blocker/alt win con/ removal fodder that draws you cards on EBT.
Since color isn't a real issue In this deck (because of the triomes and the treasures) isn't the 6 mana mass duress from hand and grave an auto include in this against control? (Forgot the card's name though 😅)
Couldn't you have just won at 39:00 when you drew the consign? You bounce the leyline back to hand, which would result in the consign going to the graveyard. You could then ultimate the Spark Double Quintorius to cast it again targeting the Nissa and getting 4 Quintorius static ability triggers.
Like this way more than the 4 mana discover deck cuz that's so one dimensional. this isnt muuuch better in that department but it definitely feels like there's way more room to play around interaction and go at it from different angles than just relying on resolving one 4 drop or bust.
30:00 Reason they didn't do it last time was because it was a clever impersonator which allowed you to copy their stuff.
Also would the crab that cycles be able to be played in this deck?
Could you not run the Macrosage for your companion? You already meet the requirement.
Seth: That leyline is next level.
Also Seth: forgets his 20 bounce 20 binding cards can hit leyline.
0:29:29 Wouldn't it have been a good idea to consign the Nissa to keep the opponent on 1 mana before going for the elephant boy?
The other discover combo is Turn 3... same thing but with Dinos
Ngl, I got absolutely stomped into the dirt by this earlier today.
Mirror-Shell Crab, Chandra and Chimil are the only things I can think of vs counterspells, maybe Bound//Determined in modern
Expansion explosion also works
@@Jacob-yq5hy that's awesome, the fork anti-counterspell tech
I think the real question is if there is a way to fight counterspells with this deck building restrictions. Becuase the combo IS strong, but it just hard looses to an opponent holding counters, or a way to go more into amidrange value plan. That sultai game made me think that maybe you do sometimes play this as a midrange? like playing dinos and copying leyline bindings and creating elephant tokens might there against an opponent that wont let you combo
A one-card combo is pretty strong; the deckbuilding restriction is very real, though, and I'm guessing you have basically NO game against control. It could be that just "survive to turn 5 and play an elephant or dinosaur" is a reasonable gameplan in Pioneer/Explorer.
I think vanquish the horde is needed for the mono-white match up
Didn't watch the entire video given that I've already played a tonne of basically the same deck, but two things:
1) Yes, the deck is good. Like many all-in decks it does have some weakness to sideboarding (as opposed to a deck like Izzet Wizards that's not going to lose to something like Stone Brain), but it can be built to have good control elements and single card OTKs are pretty great game enders.
2) I don't know if it came up in the video but it's not enough to simply resolve Quint. If your opponent can remove it before the Clone effect resolves, it stops the combo. It's important to know the instant speed interaction your opponent might be playing (ie. Get Lost in white, Sheoldred's Edict in black).
3) If you're playing against Quint combo it's important to keep mana open, even as a bluff. Tapping out on a turn they could go off is giving them the green light; I've won plenty of games against opponents that seemed like they must have disruption, simply due to them tapping out on a potential combo turn. Also be aware of when the Quint player is probably baiting you. I play Keruga as a companion and I've seen people waste important removal/counterspells on it, when for the most part they could save it for Carno/Quint and win an easy game.
Seeing how much this deck struggles against literally any blue deck makes you realize they really should print Silence into historic
35:32 great moment in a great game
Elephant: terrorizing pioneer format.
Seth: Against the Odds.
Discover is a problem. I have run into this elephant, and there is one with red dinosaurs too.
Could you call this deck Quintorius Kand-bo?
I wonder if maybe this deck preys on the 4 cmc version of the deck by playing interaction on 3 and/or 4, then goong off on 4 or 5. Might be too hard to find good interaction that doesnt mess with the combo...but maybe not?🤔
I have a feeling this is the next Hammer Time of Against the Odds; a seemingly jank deck that turns out to be genuinely competitively viable
I learned the "as this enters the battlefield" effect still works against M.O.M 😅
The Heart of the Cards plays favorites XD
Any reason you're not playing Keruga as your companion, apart from not giving the plan away too early?
This is horrible fun and I love it.