I started doing this for the first time about 5 years ago. Needless to say, it changed my life, literally!. I had always found my previous guitar recordings to lack that feel of space.
Very nice explanation of M/S. For those who use Logic, you can record the Mid mic to the left side of a stereo linked track, and the Side mic to the right side, and then use the Direction Mixer plug-in to decode the M/S signal. That way you don’t need to duplicate the Side track and phase flip one copy, and you don’t need to create a Summing Stack. You can control the Side level with the Width control in the plug-in.
This is a brilliant way to track acoustics. It really captures the fullness of the tone and allows you to direct it at the sweet spot of the acoustic. This is great man!
I know this video is a couple years old, but thought I'd mention... Imo, the issue with this method is that if you mono sum the audio, the "side" tracks disappear again, like it was before you panned them. I think it's important to build a stereo image that does not disappear when listening in mono. It may be a better option, rather than inverting the phase of the duplicate track, pan them left and right as you did, but bump the duplicate track back 10ms or so, making sure they're in phase, but the time delay gives the stereo image instead.
kind of a Haas effect, thats what i do, except i do unique left and right takes, playing them as much close to each other. Not sure, if thats a good technique..
What you're describing is not mid side at all though - it's cool to do, it's just not MS and you're not getting the 'direction' of the side mic and it's a different sound. I guess you have to consider how important the mono sum mix actually IS. IN any case, MS gives you a solid centre that doesn't disappear in mono at all - you just lose the width. En hindi language not sure what happens with your technique when listening in mono.
After watching this, how could I not subscribe?! Your vids are so effortlessly watchable......perfect blend of charisma, knowledge and talent. Glad to have found you.....thanks old bean!
Mid-side is great, but I think it's often very easy and tempting to make it way too wide in the mix. I'd say a good starting point would be to imagine the size of the sound source, keeping in mind the distance it was recorded from / where you wanna put it in the soundstage, and trying to get the mid-side balance to match that.
I think it depends on the music. If it's a folk record and you want everything to sound fairly natural, sure. But for a dramatic rock record, or pop, wide and weird can work.
'First Take Jon' I have never heard that before, it made me laugh and rewind the video to hear it again. Delightful! Thank you for the explanation of mid side recording and the humour.
Excellent. Thanks very much for this tip. Tried it with 2 AKG414’s and got a stunning result with an otherwise ordinary sounding old Yamaha acoustic. 😎👍
Wow, in ten minutes concise & completely clear for as good as newbie, thx! I wonder if one can pull this off with a directional mike and an omni instead of an 8 pattern (a very round eight as it were ;). I guess it might work since the duplicate / polarity makes it stereo, but maybe the bigger overlap with the cardioid... But I might be completely mistaken since I have the recording knowledge and ezperience of a maggot. What do you think? PS I got Line Audio CM4 (cardioid) and Line Audio OM1 (omni), btw insanely great mikes for acoustic at 10-15%% of the price of a Schoeps, made by a Swedish one man company, recommended by an friend (pro audio engineer), you might be interested. (I also do have a Behringer B-1 that can do 8 but lend it to someone).
Tip: If your mid/side recordings turn out lopsided (like in this video; more volume on the left channel) you can cheat a little bit and use the S1 Imager from Waves to balance the left and right channels.
You might get a similar effect... but it's not mid-side. The fig-8 mic is not in mono though, it's picking up from both side of the ribbon. The processing just allows you to separate the signals.
Maybe I'm missing something.. When you flipped the phase, the sounds canceled each other out. When you pan them left and right, you're hearing them independently, so they come back. But won't those sounds cancel each other out again if played on a mono system like a phone or a club setting?
That’s the thing! This technique is quite preferable because you can have a nice stereo image when played in stereo, but you also maintain all the information and the punchy sound when you listen through a single speaker, cause you ve got two different sources covering each case, but also working very well together in the same time!
Yea really good question. The mid mic remains mono so is unaffected on a mono system. The sides will indeed cancel each other out so you lose the sides. As SixString says the beauty of this is that you have that ideal mono recording which still balances correctly with the rest of the mix, and while you lose the sides, they were really only give width - which you lose in mono anyway. For me it's a preferable outcome to summing an XY pair to mono.
All stereo signals work the same way. Mid/Side is present in any stereo sound. If you take any stereo track (like a complete song), and use a plugin that allows you to mute the center only and leave the side signal sounding (e.g. Izotope Ozone EQ in mid/side mode), then you'll have an identical signal in the sides that seem to sound in stereo, but they will cancel each other if you invert the phase of one of them and send both to the center or to the same side. The magic happens when you have both the center and the mid signals sounding at the same time, because the center actually cancels out many things in the side signal, but different for each side as they have inverted phases. Now, what makes this technique great is not the fact that it is mid/side, bacause you can process mid/side on any stereo recording. What makes it great is that you are using a single microphone for the center signal, and you can adjust that single microphone in a perfect position and sound of an instrument, and then just add the side signal to have the stereo image - but you keep a perfect sound in mono, which doesn't quite happen with regular stereo recording techniques.
Well explained and nice demonstration! I know this wasn't covered but a lot has to be said for the sound of that guitar and the light touch you use when strumming. It contributes enormously to that really sweet, wispy tone you're getting. BTW - The U195 was one of the best acoustic guitar mics I ever owned. I miss it!!
I do this regularly on acoustic guitar. I’ve also been doing this on electric guitars. Two different ways. One way is just like acoustic version but in front of the amp. The other is splitting the guitar and sending it to two amps with a cardioid mic on one amp and a ribbon or figure 8 mic on the other. Makes for a big sound.
Trying to get my head about the electric/dual amp miking. Do you do the whole MS thing with the two recordings? I'm wondering about phase etc if the mics are not in the same place.
NIce...a really lovely sound...but I hear the guitar being slightly off center...maybe working with the level of the sides to move the image back to the center.
Spent ages learning this via S. O. S. articles and forums. Great to see a tutorial. It’ll help me fast track through it again. “Old Martin!” ...subbed.
@@JonWrightMusicTV Dude - your channel is fab. Really succinct and to the point. Up there with Kush’s. Keep sharing your wisdom and knowledge!!! It’s truly appreciated and received with open arms.
Great sound! I've used a MKH 418-S to mic choral field recordings for a documentary, not the quietest mic, but I felt it would give some latitude in post mix.
I discovered recently that you can save yourself a bunch of hassle editing multiple-track comps in Logic by adding all the tracks to a VCA group while editing. You then go into the Group Settings panel and tick "editing", any changes between comps will then be made across all tracks in the VCA group (though it breaks if the number of takes in each folder are different)
Great video, already used this technique many times but stayed the 10 mins just because I enjoyed the way you explained it. And that bock mic sounds just fantastic!
Finally! Someone who gets it! Bravo! This should be ear opening and eye-opening, for others. Thank you! LMAO Yes I have enjoyed using the MS microphone technique for almost 40 years now. One of the great things about it. Is being able to adjust the stereo width. From ultra wide to, ultra narrow. Or mono as we call it. Middle as it is. Monophonic stereo. Of a single sound source coming out of both speakers, equally. Mono as in middle as in Monaural. And of course the beauty of this technique. You are pointing the microphone. That is the primary pickup microphone. Directly at the sound source. Precisely where you want it. Then the side microphone. It has such an incredible mid null point. That it's only picking up the acoustic ambience to the left and to the right. But combining both that left and right. Into a single channel. Called the, Difference Channel. And that is actually the way in which, FM broadcasting. Was made compatible. On both stereo and mono, receivers. FM is not broadcast as left and right channels. It's broadcast as, Middle and Side or Mono and Difference. So it really does not require 3 channels at all. It only requires the original 2. But from that. You actually derive, three separate channels. Left-Center-Right. And the left channel and right channel information is decoded through, multiplexing. In other words it's something of a carrier wave. That has 2 channels embedded, within it. That requires the Middle Mono, channel. To extract. Those other 2 separate channels left and right. It was also a technique used when recording to some, NAB, tape cartridges. Back in the good old days before digital. With the stereo was suffering greatly from head, azimuth, misalignment. And that would sound terrible in mono. Creating a muddy sound. But if you encoded your tape, for stereo. In that MS manner. Regardless of head azimuth error. That would simply make the stereo imaging going wider and narrower. And was popular to use in that manner, also. I use it for all sorts of stereo effects. Now to do this truly the correct way. You're supposed to have essentially, matching cardioid and bidirectional, microphones. With matching capsules. Essentially. So as to be, true to form. But really any cardioid and bidirectional microphone can be used together. And get this great ethereal sounding 3 channels of stereo. With 100% mono compatibility! Recordable on only 2 channels. Ain't that somethin'? What will they think of next? So great to see and hear somebody finally using this fabulous technique of stereo MICing. Recording jazz drums with an MS overtop. And a bass drum microphone. It is absolutely, elegant sounding. Rudy Van Gelder would be proud. But yes sir re-Bob. Using that center mono capacitor a.k.a. condenser microphone. Coupled with a Symmetrical, bidirectional ribbon. And I stress, Symmetrical. Because! There are a number of, modern day, asymmetrical, figure of 8, ribbon microphones. They do not have the same response on the front side as the backside. They are both different. And while you could do MS with one of those also. I wouldn't know which side to advise you on. To have which polar tailored response on which side? And how would one determine that? With an, Asymmetrical, bidirectional, ribbon microphone? So it all comes down on what kind of bidirectional ribbon or condenser microphone you got. Though, I must admit. I love using a pair of Beyer M-160 coupled with the M-130, short geometry, dual ribbon, microphones. As they each have 2 parallel to one another. And they sound really sweet as an MS stereo pair. And a great way to capture a Symphony Orchestra. It's a lovely technique also for recording vocals. And then you can play some cool stereo tricks. Like adding a little limiting or compression to your Side a.k.a. Difference channel. And then amazing at the enhanced stereo imaging you get. It's wild! Because you are merely enhancing the stereo information. Not the mono information. Of a single sound source. And that's hard for someone to wrap their head around. But that's the way to get a real stereo vocal. Where the singer is singing squarely into the Middle Mono, cardioid, capsule. And not pointing off to the left or to the right. But straight on. So I thank you, sir. For getting this all, absolutely right. As I am part of the MS enforcement police. Making sure no one is Amiss with their MS. In fact I am so much into MS. The doctors told me I took it too far. As I loved it so much. I came down with it. But that's a different kind of MS. That kills you. It's going to kill me. Not the microphone technique. No. The real thing. The real MS. The Multiple Sclerosis, of MS. The kind you don't want. Yeah, so it's not really requiring 3 channels. But it does on your audio console/mixer and/or in software. It requires 3. To pull this off. Otherwise it can actually be done. With a pair of matrix wired audio transformers. Which is the way it was first accomplished. It was a little box you would patch in your M channel and your S channel. And out came stereo. Isn't that amazing! Keeping it restricted to the original 2 channels only. I think you could've explained this a little bit better. But that's just me. You explained enough. You got it. Now you can run with it. Good job old boy RemyRAD
Wow. What a gold mine of info that comment is! I feel quite a sense of relief that you've seen this and signed off on it. Sorry to hear of the MS, I hope it's manageable. I learned from another commenter that Logic has a way of processing a mono file to extract the stereo, as your matrix wired transformers would (so, 2 tracks only). Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and taking the time to feed back on the video.
Nice video Mr One Take. I do similar things, more often taking one side of a stereo recording and collapsing it to mono. Mono is very appealing, with music coming down the middle and the effects going into stereo. I have not however used the phase reverse technique from a mono source. You can do a lot with audio if you had a stereo source, creating a similar result by converting 1/2 to mono and doubling the second side for stereo, processing it separately. I’ve often heard mid/side referred to as mono/stereo, and what this has helped me understand is the 5.1 surround sound. Your mono source is up front and your stereo comes into the rear speakers. Thanks for the pro tips, much appreciated. -Jim
i wish you would've shown a head on perspective of the mic placement for seeing where the mono mic was pointing exactly at on the guitar. really nice sound though
Bok is nicely centred, but when blending the mid sides the left channel has more body (Probably the side facing the sound hole I guess) which gives more prominence to that side.
@@JonWrightMusicTV It definitely was. My videos are less tech focused than yours, I think, but your presentation is so on point, every beginner should be able to follow on this. Great job, man!
Mid/side recording......interesting, I'll try that next time I'm recording acoustic, without reverb that's a personal choice I don't like reverb on acoustic guitar, that Martin acoustic you have is absolutely gorgeous, sounds great, keep on groovin' duder peace and love to you Brother Man ✌️😎
amazing work.. the comp part is such an imp point. Learnt a lot, i think M/S is imp tool to have in studio. Just deciding on a great bamboo flute microphone these days, will checkout other videos on your channel..
@@JonWrightMusicTV I finally settled on Austrian Audio OC818 pair. These are 2 microphones in 1, so 4 total, and can do mid side, blumlein etc. Great Value.
Liked and subscribed because this is the best guitar recording example I've seen and heard on TH-cam. Great explanation and more importantly the finished product sounds amazing
I've been looking for a good answer re: how to mix mid'side into a bigger mix, or if it's even worth recording mid/side for an acoustic in a big mix, and you answered this question beautifully. Thank you!
Thanks Ed. Go for it - you will be the second or third person to try it (that I know of) within hours of the video going up so you’re in good company! Look forward to hearing how it works out 💪
That's brilliant! My next acoustic rec will def be this way. Just recently got a ldc with switchable patterns, so that will probably be it's maiden rec, together with I guess the Sennheiser 421 for warmth. Or my sdc for clarity. Or nicer still perhaps put the Sennheiser on my own gave sweet spot (slightly pointed up from just under the bridge to the right of my strum hand, pointing at the soundboard right of the bridge in direction of the hole and then the sdc at your sweet spot (wich is new to me) to make it a stereo pair in addition to the 8.
Thanks! It’s probably a bit wide for some. I was trying to make the stereo effect obvious for the purposes of demonstration. Hope it works out on sax, should be interesting?
Love M+S sound capture. In this instance it sounds kinda out of phase. It is uncomfortable with a headset. I wonder why you did not show that you can change the balance between M and S to control the width of the stereo image. Cheers!
The technique is correct - perhaps it sounds out of phase when flipping between mono? I did show that you can change the blend to control the width - maybe you missed that bit.
Awesome!!! Thanks for this … I’ve heard of this but never understood how to do it. Still not quite sure I get why it works, but I kinda like the thought of some magic in the process! 😁
Oh, interesting! I can't imagine you'll get much in the way of a stereo image since the source is mono (I am assuming)... but if the room is big or interesting and you're far away enough you might get something. For big trio sounds bi-amping might be a nice way to go...
Awesome video Jon, just found your channel. You may not remember me as I do a bunch of different stuff but I run a Country music event in Essex called Nashville Calling, you and Liv played one of our Epping shows in 2019 (I did/do sound that night too). I converted one of my outbuildings into a little home studio 18 months ago and and learning some stuff. I'll give this technique a go as results look very interesting. Good luck with your channel, you got a great way of presenting too. So keep it going
Great video, but the problem with recording guitar mid/side so close to the guitar is that one side (the body side) will always be louder, as is in your video too.
You sure do get that phenomenon but I think whether it's a problem is one of those subjective things. It's a rather interesting sound. You can always rotate the mid mic a touch or fiddle with the panning if it's truly bothersome. Thanks for your comment!
Thank you for a great how-to with beautiful reflective guitar piece. Do you think it would fit a folkish guitar and singer with voice in the middle wrapped by guitar?
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it. Yes, I think it would be ideal for that purpose and the benefit of MS is that you have as much, or as little of the stereo with as you like while capturing the ideal guitar tone with the mid mic. Good luck!
Great video Jon. I've a question: The only 2 mics I have are an SM57 and a Rode NT2-A. Would this method work ok with these? The Rode can be set to the fgure of 8, but of course the SM57 is a dynamic mic. I'll be recording pretty lively rhythm just to support vocals. It doesn't need to sound amazing because, let's face it, I'll probably be asking you to do the guitars in the end anyway as I play guitar like a pianist.
This is a great question. Obviously the answer is partly to just try it out and see if you like it, but really it depends on how you like the blend of the 57 and NT2-A and whether you can find the sweet spot. With that combination of mics, as you bring up the Sides (NT2-A) to make it wider you'll be affecting the tone of the SM57 quite a bit. Will the SM57 deliver the Mid tone you like, and better than just the NT2-A on its own? Hard to say. Though obviously I should say that in all circumstances you should without hire a specialist, specifically ME, to record all your guitars regardless. 😃😇 Give it a try!
Hi Jon, Quick question, is there a reason you are using your ribbon mic instead of an omni-directional pattern on a condenser mic? Thank you so much for answering!
The ‘side’ mic needs to have a figure of 8 pattern, and is rotated 90 degrees to provide the side information. An omni wouldn’t work. You could use a condenser with a figure of 8 pattern, but I didn’t have one on hand so used a ribbon (which are always fig-8). That's it!
Super helpful video! One question: I noticed when you had the original (non-phase inverted) "side" panned left, the stereo out was left-heavy, and when you flipped the panning, it became right-heavy (sounds great...by "heavy" I just mean either the left or right was reaching a higher level). I have noticed the same when I record using this technique. Do you know why this happens? It's driving me crazy trying to figure it out!
I get the same thing. I might be wrong but I think it's just the different levels of the signals - the body 'side' being louder than the headstock side. I've experimented with rotating the mic a bit, or just evening it up a bit with the pan controls. Glad it was helpful though!
Did you process the audio in any way, EQ, noise canceling, limiting etc? There is almost no string noise and the sound seems very polished and good. Any info there? Thanks.
It was a while ago but if there was any EQ it would have a small reduction in low end, and again probably pretty light compression. The lack of string noise is a combination of the guitar (it's warm) strings (Elixir) and left hand technique (unconscious!)
What about the figure 8 pattern makes this special? Could I approximate the same result with a condenser mic with different tonal qualities than my main mic, and doubling/phase inverting/hard panning?
Hey Brian. No, that won't do it - it needs to be a figure of 8. You can think of a fig 8 mic as pointing in two directions at the same time - you just have to do the inverting/panning to separate them and get that stereo goodness.
Is it normal when you duplicate the side mic track and phase invert it, and add in the MID, for the stereo image is lopsided. With just the 2 SIDES (1 phased) it is equal stereo Image. The phase invert seems to cancel out something when I add in the mid. So with all 3 it is off. Or is this just how it is? Thanks.
It's common. I think it's rooted in the body of the guitar being louder than the neck end. Choices are to live with it, rotate the side mic a bit to balance it, or simply control it with the faders. The last one I suspect may not be technically correct but if it sounds alright (and doesn't do anything weird when summed to mono), why not?
Brilliant explanation. If you happened to have 2 ribbon's each with a figure of eight could one still be used for mid ? - The room is untreated and boxy so was wondering about (bad) reflections it might pick up on the back side (the polar pattern cannot be switched). On that note is it practical to somehow cover the back side to get a more directional/true mid without (or with minimal reflection). Thanks in advance...
Ooh, good question. I don't know for sure. I mean the ribbon-as-mid mic will still be mono, so ought to provide what you need. As for the back side pickup, you could pop an acoustic panel/duvet/wardrobe on that side to minimise. Remember, although you might expect a fig 8 pickup to give you lots of room, it does cancel out the sides (ie most of the room) so it might not be bad at all in a poor room!
@@JonWrightMusicTV Good point on the side cancelation if used as a mid.. will hang the duvet over the angled clothes airer on the back side of the mid mic. I imagine you might want to be fairly central in a room for the side mic so equi-distant reflections if not treating.. Thanks.
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The production quality of this channel is stupidly good. Wtf. Killer killer stuff here! I can’t wait to try this out in a session tomorrow
Thanks man
I started doing this for the first time about 5 years ago. Needless to say, it changed my life, literally!. I had always found my previous guitar recordings to lack that feel of space.
Amazing! It's quite something when you get it right
Very nice explanation of M/S. For those who use Logic, you can record the Mid mic to the left side of a stereo linked track, and the Side mic to the right side, and then use the Direction Mixer plug-in to decode the M/S signal. That way you don’t need to duplicate the Side track and phase flip one copy, and you don’t need to create a Summing Stack. You can control the Side level with the Width control in the plug-in.
Top tip! Thanks!
This is news to me but makes sense. Thank you for sharing that with us!
This is a brilliant way to track acoustics. It really captures the fullness of the tone and allows you to direct it at the sweet spot of the acoustic. This is great man!
Cheers Tico! Agreed in full!
I know this video is a couple years old, but thought I'd mention... Imo, the issue with this method is that if you mono sum the audio, the "side" tracks disappear again, like it was before you panned them. I think it's important to build a stereo image that does not disappear when listening in mono. It may be a better option, rather than inverting the phase of the duplicate track, pan them left and right as you did, but bump the duplicate track back 10ms or so, making sure they're in phase, but the time delay gives the stereo image instead.
kind of a Haas effect, thats what i do, except i do unique left and right takes, playing them as much close to each other. Not sure, if thats a good technique..
What you're describing is not mid side at all though - it's cool to do, it's just not MS and you're not getting the 'direction' of the side mic and it's a different sound.
I guess you have to consider how important the mono sum mix actually IS. IN any case, MS gives you a solid centre that doesn't disappear in mono at all - you just lose the width. En hindi language not sure what happens with your technique when listening in mono.
After watching this, how could I not subscribe?! Your vids are so effortlessly watchable......perfect blend of charisma, knowledge and talent. Glad to have found you.....thanks old bean!
I feel so seen! Thanks old bean
Never seen this mic arrangement before. I'm learning so much from you 🎉👏. And the playing is so soothing
Awesome! Thank you!
This guy is so humble and smart. Good teacher as well.
Thanks very much. I mean, I am SUPER humble - it’s one of my many great qualities 😉
This is the best explanation and demonstration of M/S technique I've seen. Slick production, too. Thank you!
Cheers Chris!
3 years later, I’m just now seeing this video. Great stuff. I have guitar parts that could benefit from this technique. Thank you for sharing!
My pleasure! Only 5 months later I saw your comment!
Mid-side is great, but I think it's often very easy and tempting to make it way too wide in the mix. I'd say a good starting point would be to imagine the size of the sound source, keeping in mind the distance it was recorded from / where you wanna put it in the soundstage, and trying to get the mid-side balance to match that.
I think it depends on the music. If it's a folk record and you want everything to sound fairly natural, sure. But for a dramatic rock record, or pop, wide and weird can work.
Damn first real trick I have seen in a minute
Nice
Audio is on point, subject is relevant, the dude even has a random colored light in the background... yet somehow
THANKYOU!!! No one ever talks about the coloured light 😄
But maybe he is on the rise?? He just showed up on my recommendations for the first time!!
Well, he's got 631 at the time of this comment.
713 now
1,02 k
So great to hear something I built with my hands used so effectively. Cheers from Seattle
Ulrigg! What a thrill - how nice to meet you. Thanks for making such nice gear!
'First Take Jon' I have never heard that before, it made me laugh and rewind the video to hear it again. Delightful! Thank you for the explanation of mid side recording and the humour.
My pleasure! Thanks for saying hi 👍
Lots of great tips here. Thanks 🙏🏼
Thank you!
Excellent. Thanks very much for this tip. Tried it with 2 AKG414’s and got a stunning result with an otherwise ordinary sounding old Yamaha acoustic. 😎👍
Amazing, that exactly what I’m talking about! Love the 414.
That's almost exactly what I'm doing today! Warm Audio WA-14 for side then Neumann TLM 103 for mid.
Best mid side explanation video I’ve seen -Thank You!
Thanks very much! Glad it was clear 😊
Very pro video and audio quality.
Glad you think so!
Other then the technique.. i liked the guitar part you played..
Thank you!
Lovely sounding recording, I've never liked stereo pairs on an acoustic.
Same here!
This was really interesting..enjoyed this mate. Will give it a go x
Nice.
Sounds brilliant.
How does this (pardon the pun) pan out in mono? Is there some, or all, cancellation of the 2 side panned tracks?
Sweet demo. Concise and clear and stereo
Thanks man
Wow, in ten minutes concise & completely clear for as good as newbie, thx! I wonder if one can pull this off with a directional mike and an omni instead of an 8 pattern (a very round eight as it were ;). I guess it might work since the duplicate / polarity makes it stereo, but maybe the bigger overlap with the cardioid... But I might be completely mistaken since I have the recording knowledge and ezperience of a maggot. What do you think?
PS I got Line Audio CM4 (cardioid) and Line Audio OM1 (omni), btw insanely great mikes for acoustic at 10-15%% of the price of a Schoeps, made by a Swedish one man company, recommended by an friend (pro audio engineer), you might be interested. (I also do have a Behringer B-1 that can do 8 but lend it to someone).
Great channel with knowledgeable presenter! Very handful tip, definitely gonna try it. Subscribed immediately!
Thanks very much 👍
Tip: If your mid/side recordings turn out lopsided (like in this video; more volume on the left channel) you can cheat a little bit and use the S1 Imager from Waves to balance the left and right channels.
This is so cool!!! I'm definitely going to be using this in most if not all recordings I do. Thank you
You might get a similar effect... but it's not mid-side. The fig-8 mic is not in mono though, it's picking up from both side of the ribbon. The processing just allows you to separate the signals.
Maybe I'm missing something.. When you flipped the phase, the sounds canceled each other out. When you pan them left and right, you're hearing them independently, so they come back. But won't those sounds cancel each other out again if played on a mono system like a phone or a club setting?
This was my question too! I hope he answers, I can't wait to try this technique.
That’s the thing! This technique is quite preferable because you can have a nice stereo image when played in stereo, but you also maintain all the information and the punchy sound when you listen through a single speaker, cause you ve got two different sources covering each case, but also working very well together in the same time!
Yea really good question. The mid mic remains mono so is unaffected on a mono system. The sides will indeed cancel each other out so you lose the sides. As SixString says the beauty of this is that you have that ideal mono recording which still balances correctly with the rest of the mix, and while you lose the sides, they were really only give width - which you lose in mono anyway. For me it's a preferable outcome to summing an XY pair to mono.
@@JonWrightMusicTV Totally makes sense, thank you!
All stereo signals work the same way. Mid/Side is present in any stereo sound. If you take any stereo track (like a complete song), and use a plugin that allows you to mute the center only and leave the side signal sounding (e.g. Izotope Ozone EQ in mid/side mode), then you'll have an identical signal in the sides that seem to sound in stereo, but they will cancel each other if you invert the phase of one of them and send both to the center or to the same side. The magic happens when you have both the center and the mid signals sounding at the same time, because the center actually cancels out many things in the side signal, but different for each side as they have inverted phases. Now, what makes this technique great is not the fact that it is mid/side, bacause you can process mid/side on any stereo recording. What makes it great is that you are using a single microphone for the center signal, and you can adjust that single microphone in a perfect position and sound of an instrument, and then just add the side signal to have the stereo image - but you keep a perfect sound in mono, which doesn't quite happen with regular stereo recording techniques.
Thank you for the clear explanation of this recording technique!
My pleasure my treasure
Well explained and nice demonstration! I know this wasn't covered but a lot has to be said for the sound of that guitar and the light touch you use when strumming. It contributes enormously to that really sweet, wispy tone you're getting. BTW - The U195 was one of the best acoustic guitar mics I ever owned. I miss it!!
That's very kind. Yes, it's a good guitar! U195 FTW - underrated...
I do this regularly on acoustic guitar. I’ve also been doing this on electric guitars. Two different ways. One way is just like acoustic version but in front of the amp. The other is splitting the guitar and sending it to two amps with a cardioid mic on one amp and a ribbon or figure 8 mic on the other. Makes for a big sound.
Trying to get my head about the electric/dual amp miking. Do you do the whole MS thing with the two recordings? I'm wondering about phase etc if the mics are not in the same place.
Is that a J-40? Maybe the most under-appreciated acoustic out there. That and the similar m36.
What a great clear explanation of mid/side, Jon. Thanks for that
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for this video. It was very helpful.
I'm so glad!
great sound wide and clear
Thanks for listening
NIce...a really lovely sound...but I hear the guitar being slightly off center...maybe working with the level of the sides to move the image back to the center.
Spent ages learning this via S. O. S. articles and forums. Great to see a tutorial. It’ll help me fast track through it again.
“Old Martin!” ...subbed.
Thanks for being here and glad the channel is provide useful to you. Cheers!
@@JonWrightMusicTV Dude - your channel is fab. Really succinct and to the point. Up there with Kush’s. Keep sharing your wisdom and knowledge!!! It’s truly appreciated and received with open arms.
@@thefeelcompany Wow. That's extremely kind - I love Gregory!
Thank you! Best way to conclude this year. Beautiful playing and teaching!
You're very welcome, and I appreciate the kind words. A belated HNY to you!
Great tutorial never saw this technique before!
Glad it was helpful!
Cool. Old prof of mine showed a similar trick in the past.
Probably the same trick!
Great sound!
I've used a MKH 418-S to mic choral field recordings for a documentary, not the quietest mic, but I felt it would give some latitude in post mix.
Oooh, interesting! Did it work as you hoped?
Great video, Jon! That technique is really useful and it sounds lovely.
Ah, thank you. It's a good old guitar
dude thank you. I have the DAV BG1 and also a Art Pro MPA 2 which has a Mid/Side Matrix feature.
Love the BG-1!
Very nice breakdown of the technique.
Glad you enjoyed it!
This is pure gold information ! Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
I discovered recently that you can save yourself a bunch of hassle editing multiple-track comps in Logic by adding all the tracks to a VCA group while editing. You then go into the Group Settings panel and tick "editing", any changes between comps will then be made across all tracks in the VCA group (though it breaks if the number of takes in each folder are different)
Absolutely - thanks for sharing that tip
Great video, already used this technique many times but stayed the 10 mins just because I enjoyed the way you explained it. And that bock mic sounds just fantastic!
This made my day. Glad it’s bearable for some without the need for the info!
Finally! Someone who gets it! Bravo! This should be ear opening and eye-opening, for others. Thank you! LMAO
Yes I have enjoyed using the MS microphone technique for almost 40 years now. One of the great things about it. Is being able to adjust the stereo width. From ultra wide to, ultra narrow. Or mono as we call it. Middle as it is. Monophonic stereo. Of a single sound source coming out of both speakers, equally. Mono as in middle as in Monaural.
And of course the beauty of this technique. You are pointing the microphone. That is the primary pickup microphone. Directly at the sound source. Precisely where you want it.
Then the side microphone. It has such an incredible mid null point. That it's only picking up the acoustic ambience to the left and to the right. But combining both that left and right. Into a single channel. Called the, Difference Channel. And that is actually the way in which, FM broadcasting. Was made compatible. On both stereo and mono, receivers. FM is not broadcast as left and right channels. It's broadcast as, Middle and Side or Mono and Difference.
So it really does not require 3 channels at all. It only requires the original 2. But from that. You actually derive, three separate channels. Left-Center-Right. And the left channel and right channel information is decoded through, multiplexing. In other words it's something of a carrier wave. That has 2 channels embedded, within it. That requires the Middle Mono, channel. To extract. Those other 2 separate channels left and right.
It was also a technique used when recording to some, NAB, tape cartridges. Back in the good old days before digital. With the stereo was suffering greatly from head, azimuth, misalignment. And that would sound terrible in mono. Creating a muddy sound. But if you encoded your tape, for stereo. In that MS manner. Regardless of head azimuth error. That would simply make the stereo imaging going wider and narrower. And was popular to use in that manner, also. I use it for all sorts of stereo effects.
Now to do this truly the correct way. You're supposed to have essentially, matching cardioid and bidirectional, microphones. With matching capsules. Essentially. So as to be, true to form. But really any cardioid and bidirectional microphone can be used together. And get this great ethereal sounding 3 channels of stereo. With 100% mono compatibility! Recordable on only 2 channels. Ain't that somethin'? What will they think of next?
So great to see and hear somebody finally using this fabulous technique of stereo MICing. Recording jazz drums with an MS overtop. And a bass drum microphone. It is absolutely, elegant sounding. Rudy Van Gelder would be proud.
But yes sir re-Bob. Using that center mono capacitor a.k.a. condenser microphone. Coupled with a Symmetrical, bidirectional ribbon. And I stress, Symmetrical. Because! There are a number of, modern day, asymmetrical, figure of 8, ribbon microphones. They do not have the same response on the front side as the backside. They are both different. And while you could do MS with one of those also. I wouldn't know which side to advise you on. To have which polar tailored response on which side? And how would one determine that? With an, Asymmetrical, bidirectional, ribbon microphone?
So it all comes down on what kind of bidirectional ribbon or condenser microphone you got. Though, I must admit. I love using a pair of Beyer M-160 coupled with the M-130, short geometry, dual ribbon, microphones. As they each have 2 parallel to one another. And they sound really sweet as an MS stereo pair. And a great way to capture a Symphony Orchestra.
It's a lovely technique also for recording vocals. And then you can play some cool stereo tricks. Like adding a little limiting or compression to your Side a.k.a. Difference channel. And then amazing at the enhanced stereo imaging you get. It's wild! Because you are merely enhancing the stereo information. Not the mono information. Of a single sound source. And that's hard for someone to wrap their head around. But that's the way to get a real stereo vocal. Where the singer is singing squarely into the Middle Mono, cardioid, capsule. And not pointing off to the left or to the right. But straight on.
So I thank you, sir. For getting this all, absolutely right. As I am part of the MS enforcement police. Making sure no one is Amiss with their MS.
In fact I am so much into MS. The doctors told me I took it too far. As I loved it so much. I came down with it. But that's a different kind of MS. That kills you. It's going to kill me. Not the microphone technique. No. The real thing. The real MS. The Multiple Sclerosis, of MS. The kind you don't want.
Yeah, so it's not really requiring 3 channels. But it does on your audio console/mixer and/or in software. It requires 3. To pull this off. Otherwise it can actually be done. With a pair of matrix wired audio transformers. Which is the way it was first accomplished. It was a little box you would patch in your M channel and your S channel. And out came stereo. Isn't that amazing! Keeping it restricted to the original 2 channels only.
I think you could've explained this a little bit better. But that's just me. You explained enough. You got it. Now you can run with it.
Good job old boy
RemyRAD
Wow. What a gold mine of info that comment is! I feel quite a sense of relief that you've seen this and signed off on it. Sorry to hear of the MS, I hope it's manageable. I learned from another commenter that Logic has a way of processing a mono file to extract the stereo, as your matrix wired transformers would (so, 2 tracks only). Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and taking the time to feed back on the video.
Nice video Mr One Take. I do similar things, more often taking one side of a stereo recording and collapsing it to mono. Mono is very appealing, with music coming down the middle and the effects going into stereo. I have not however used the phase reverse technique from a mono source. You can do a lot with audio if you had a stereo source, creating a similar result by converting 1/2 to mono and doubling the second side for stereo, processing it separately. I’ve often heard mid/side referred to as mono/stereo, and what this has helped me understand is the 5.1 surround sound. Your mono source is up front and your stereo comes into the rear speakers. Thanks for the pro tips, much appreciated. -Jim
My pleasure, and thank you for the feedback. That mono compatibility is so useful.
i wish you would've shown a head on perspective of the mic placement for seeing where the mono mic was pointing exactly at on the guitar. really nice sound though
I think the moving camera gives the best perspective - I find the head on perspective is actually quite misleading to be honest
Bok is nicely centred, but when blending the mid sides the left channel has more body (Probably the side facing the sound hole I guess) which gives more prominence to that side.
Exactly correct
The quality here is damn!!!! I hope you takeoff soon!
Thanks man 👍
Wonderfully done and great explanations. I have only used mid side stuff for my drum rooms so far, might give it a try on my acoustic next time.
Thank you - glad it was useful!
@@JonWrightMusicTV It definitely was. My videos are less tech focused than yours, I think, but your presentation is so on point, every beginner should be able to follow on this. Great job, man!
Mid/side recording......interesting, I'll try that next time I'm recording acoustic, without reverb that's a personal choice I don't like reverb on acoustic guitar, that Martin acoustic you have is absolutely gorgeous, sounds great, keep on groovin' duder peace and love to you Brother Man ✌️😎
Thank you sir!
amazing work.. the comp part is such an imp point. Learnt a lot, i think M/S is imp tool to have in studio. Just deciding on a great bamboo flute microphone these days, will checkout other videos on your channel..
Thank for watching. I think my channel needs more bamboo flute tech videos.
@@JonWrightMusicTV I finally settled on Austrian Audio OC818 pair. These are 2 microphones in 1, so 4 total, and can do mid side, blumlein etc. Great Value.
Damn sounds amazing. Lovely playing
Thanks matey
Liked and subscribed because this is the best guitar recording example I've seen and heard on TH-cam. Great explanation and more importantly the finished product sounds amazing
This warms my heart - thank you
Beautiful. Thank you Jon ☺️
My pleasure!
I've been looking for a good answer re: how to mix mid'side into a bigger mix, or if it's even worth recording mid/side for an acoustic in a big mix, and you answered this question beautifully. Thank you!
It’s a good question! Thanks for your feedback, so good to know it helped someone!
This is a great video, you’re smashing it mate. And this is a tip I am literally going to try now 😀👌
Thanks Ed. Go for it - you will be the second or third person to try it (that I know of) within hours of the video going up so you’re in good company! Look forward to hearing how it works out 💪
J40 - such a dream. Will try a MID Recording with mine (from 1994) today.
My brother! About the same year!
That's brilliant! My next acoustic rec will def be this way. Just recently got a ldc with switchable patterns, so that will probably be it's maiden rec, together with I guess the Sennheiser 421 for warmth. Or my sdc for clarity. Or nicer still perhaps put the Sennheiser on my own gave sweet spot (slightly pointed up from just under the bridge to the right of my strum hand, pointing at the soundboard right of the bridge in direction of the hole and then the sdc at your sweet spot (wich is new to me) to make it a stereo pair in addition to the 8.
Lovely options - I hope you enjoy experimenting and get some exciting sounds.
very nice sound!!
Thank you 😋
Amazing tutorial ! Thanks !! I'll try this asap
My pleasure!
Truly out of the box❤️💯 please avoid those critics, what sounds good is good❤️💯
Thank you, much appreciated!
Brilliant
Cheers!
Excellent video ! The guitar tends to sound too wide for my taste, but when I lay my hands on a figure 8 mic, I'll try this on a saxophone.
Thanks! It’s probably a bit wide for some. I was trying to make the stereo effect obvious for the purposes of demonstration. Hope it works out on sax, should be interesting?
As mentioned in the video, the level of the side signal allows you to control the width of the sound, from a lot (and more) to none at all.
Great acoustic recording tip. Thanks.
Glad you liked it!
Love M+S sound capture. In this instance it sounds kinda out of phase. It is uncomfortable with a headset. I wonder why you did not show that you can change the balance between M and S to control the width of the stereo image. Cheers!
The technique is correct - perhaps it sounds out of phase when flipping between mono? I did show that you can change the blend to control the width - maybe you missed that bit.
Very nice sound. I like this M/S stuff.
Thanks. Agreed!
Awesome!!! Thanks for this … I’ve heard of this but never understood how to do it. Still not quite sure I get why it works, but I kinda like the thought of some magic in the process! 😁
Oh it's 100% magic. I wouldn't even try to understand to be honest - let the dark arts remain a mystery
I just learned what a Track Stack is... :p
also nice playing!
Now you know!
thanks, I'm trying it on a guitar cabinet, you need all the sound you can get as the only guitar in a trio!
Oh, interesting! I can't imagine you'll get much in the way of a stereo image since the source is mono (I am assuming)... but if the room is big or interesting and you're far away enough you might get something. For big trio sounds bi-amping might be a nice way to go...
Thanks for the tips man !!
Really helps to just have a starting point :)
My pleasure my treasure
Really good vid. Thanks
You’re welcome sir
Awesome video Jon, just found your channel. You may not remember me as I do a bunch of different stuff but I run a Country music event in Essex called Nashville Calling, you and Liv played one of our Epping shows in 2019 (I did/do sound that night too). I converted one of my outbuildings into a little home studio 18 months ago and and learning some stuff. I'll give this technique a go as results look very interesting. Good luck with your channel, you got a great way of presenting too. So keep it going
Yes I remember! Of course - that was a fun night. Thanks for comments and good luck with the studio and recording!
Great video, but the problem with recording guitar mid/side so close to the guitar is that one side (the body side) will always be louder, as is in your video too.
You sure do get that phenomenon but I think whether it's a problem is one of those subjective things. It's a rather interesting sound. You can always rotate the mid mic a touch or fiddle with the panning if it's truly bothersome. Thanks for your comment!
Thank you for a great how-to with beautiful reflective guitar piece. Do you think it would fit a folkish guitar and singer with voice in the middle wrapped by guitar?
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it. Yes, I think it would be ideal for that purpose and the benefit of MS is that you have as much, or as little of the stereo with as you like while capturing the ideal guitar tone with the mid mic. Good luck!
Great stuff. I love Mid/side!
Thanks Eric! Me too 👍
Great job man! Perfect content. Light, sound, voice!
Thank you sir
Great video Jon. I've a question: The only 2 mics I have are an SM57 and a Rode NT2-A. Would this method work ok with these? The Rode can be set to the fgure of 8, but of course the SM57 is a dynamic mic. I'll be recording pretty lively rhythm just to support vocals. It doesn't need to sound amazing because, let's face it, I'll probably be asking you to do the guitars in the end anyway as I play guitar like a pianist.
This is a great question. Obviously the answer is partly to just try it out and see if you like it, but really it depends on how you like the blend of the 57 and NT2-A and whether you can find the sweet spot. With that combination of mics, as you bring up the Sides (NT2-A) to make it wider you'll be affecting the tone of the SM57 quite a bit. Will the SM57 deliver the Mid tone you like, and better than just the NT2-A on its own? Hard to say. Though obviously I should say that in all circumstances you should without hire a specialist, specifically ME, to record all your guitars regardless. 😃😇 Give it a try!
REALLY NICE
Cheers!
This sounds amazing! I am definitely going to give this a go.
Thanks - glad it was helpful!
0:28, Could you please tell me what those chords are? They're beautiful 🥺❤️
It’s just triads in G with an open G string drone throughout x
Really interesting to hear about! Keep it up ☺️🎸
Glad you enjoyed!
Very nice. Cheers!
Thank you! Cheers!
Hi Jon,
Quick question, is there a reason you are using your ribbon mic instead of an omni-directional pattern on a condenser mic?
Thank you so much for answering!
The ‘side’ mic needs to have a figure of 8 pattern, and is rotated 90 degrees to provide the side information. An omni wouldn’t work.
You could use a condenser with a figure of 8 pattern, but I didn’t have one on hand so used a ribbon (which are always fig-8). That's it!
Super helpful video! One question: I noticed when you had the original (non-phase inverted) "side" panned left, the stereo out was left-heavy, and when you flipped the panning, it became right-heavy (sounds great...by "heavy" I just mean either the left or right was reaching a higher level). I have noticed the same when I record using this technique. Do you know why this happens? It's driving me crazy trying to figure it out!
I get the same thing. I might be wrong but I think it's just the different levels of the signals - the body 'side' being louder than the headstock side. I've experimented with rotating the mic a bit, or just evening it up a bit with the pan controls. Glad it was helpful though!
so great
great explanation thank you sir
You are so welcome!
Did you process the audio in any way, EQ, noise canceling, limiting etc? There is almost no string noise and the sound seems very polished and good. Any info there? Thanks.
It was a while ago but if there was any EQ it would have a small reduction in low end, and again probably pretty light compression. The lack of string noise is a combination of the guitar (it's warm) strings (Elixir) and left hand technique (unconscious!)
What about the figure 8 pattern makes this special? Could I approximate the same result with a condenser mic with different tonal qualities than my main mic, and doubling/phase inverting/hard panning?
Hey Brian. No, that won't do it - it needs to be a figure of 8. You can think of a fig 8 mic as pointing in two directions at the same time - you just have to do the inverting/panning to separate them and get that stereo goodness.
Is it normal when you duplicate the side mic track and phase invert it, and add in the MID, for the stereo image is lopsided. With just the 2 SIDES (1 phased) it is equal stereo Image. The phase invert seems to cancel out something when I add in the mid. So with all 3 it is off. Or is this just how it is? Thanks.
It's common. I think it's rooted in the body of the guitar being louder than the neck end. Choices are to live with it, rotate the side mic a bit to balance it, or simply control it with the faders. The last one I suspect may not be technically correct but if it sounds alright (and doesn't do anything weird when summed to mono), why not?
Brilliant explanation. If you happened to have 2 ribbon's each with a figure of eight could one still be used for mid ? - The room is untreated and boxy so was wondering about (bad) reflections it might pick up on the back side (the polar pattern cannot be switched). On that note is it practical to somehow cover the back side to get a more directional/true mid without (or with minimal reflection). Thanks in advance...
Ooh, good question. I don't know for sure. I mean the ribbon-as-mid mic will still be mono, so ought to provide what you need. As for the back side pickup, you could pop an acoustic panel/duvet/wardrobe on that side to minimise. Remember, although you might expect a fig 8 pickup to give you lots of room, it does cancel out the sides (ie most of the room) so it might not be bad at all in a poor room!
@@JonWrightMusicTV Good point on the side cancelation if used as a mid.. will hang the duvet over the angled clothes airer on the back side of the mid mic. I imagine you might want to be fairly central in a room for the side mic so equi-distant reflections if not treating.. Thanks.
Thanks, gonna try this.
Enjoy - hope it's useful to you!
100% doing. Thank you!!
Pleasure
So happy algorithm brought me here
That algo... I’m happy too!
Tried this today, sounded amazing!
So glad to hear that - happy it's working for you Jacob!
Great video
Thanks Carl