The Taubman Approach to Technique & Musicality (ft. Edna Golandsky)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 พ.ค. 2024
- 0:00 Practicing hurts
1:22 A scientific approach
3:25 Physical shaping, musical phrasing
6:43 Allocating weight
10:39 Controlling key speed
14:27 Risks of finger isolation
17:32 Elements of expression
Edna Golandsky's Taubman Course: www.tonebase.co/piano-courses...
Robert Durso's Taubman Courses: app.tonebase.co/piano/library...
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The Taubman Approach saved my pianistic career. After 16 medical tests and treatments to no avail, I played for Mrs. Taubman and she said I could be fixed. Music to my ears! My 35 year association with the Taubman Approach has taught me to play with much greater ease, freedom and artistry. It has also transformed my teaching. I’m forever grateful for this work.
My study of taubman technique and musicality with Edna Golandsky for many years allowed me to enter the Lindemann program at the met a week before a major arm surgery from a non Union fracture in my upper arm. The use of the forearm with no effort of from the upper arm allowed me to play an incredibly difficult program musically and skillfully while the metal in my upper arm was falling apart (if anyone has any questions I am more than happy to answer). I have two huge scars on my left arm and I am at 100 percent with 0 limitations. It was a successful last ditch effort that good technique allowed me do in spite of a huge disadvantage. Edna has been my teacher for many years and I feel blessed to study with such a great pianist and musician.
Edna is a once in a generation pedagogue. She deserves a lot of recognition.
The Taubman approach is life changing. I have studied with Edna Golandsky for the past 3 years, through grad school and ongoing. It has opened the door to what is truly possible at the piano. Before coming to Edna, I was limited physically and simply could not play certain pieces. Now, I can play virtually whatever I want with more color and expression than I could ever dream.
If you’re interested to see the retraining process, I have a video on my channel of my own journey learning the technique.
This method saved my career. The only thing better than these videos is working with a certified Taubman teacher directly.
I would recommend working with Edna Golandsky to anyone. I studied with Edna for a number of years after I became so injured (focal dystonia, thoracic outlet syndrome, radiating pain) that I could not move 8 of 10 fingers. Working with her, I was able to regain mobility, and within a few months, I was able to play again. I now have a robust career as a pianist and organist, and I am able to play pieces that previously would have been unattainable. I have also gained a network of dear friends and colleagues through my study of the Taubman Approach. I am grateful for this community, and I continue to turn to them anytime a question comes up for me about a difficult passage. I cannot recommend the Taubman Approach enough - it saved my career, and Edna is a generous and brilliant teacher. I am truly grateful to have found her when I did.
HEllo MEGAN! can i connect with you in facebook? or instagram? i have focal distoniya((( my pinkie finger culrled when i playing piano. im accompanist...what do you think...if i wont use my 5th finger? will it help me a litlle bit?
Once in a blue moon you meet someone who changes your life. That’s what Edna did for me. Working with her has been a constant revelation, and I now play pieces that I never imagined I would be able to. The Taubman Approach is about learning skills that are natural to the body and allow one to play the piano with ease. It takes time to learn and understand, but once you have it, it’s yours for ever. It’s pretty magical.
Mrs. Golandsky has been the best teacher I've ever had... She changed my life forever:
I was 17 years old when I got my first injury (tendinitis), which I actually managed to solve just through self studying the Taubman DVD's.
However, the pain in my neck and shoulder never went away and kept getting worse when I started to study at the conservatory and had to go to many competitions.
It got so bad that I had to take muscle relaxants pretty much always just to go through the day, having to lay down as often as possible to get some relief... Doctors at the hospital thaught I had been in a car accident because of how bad the muscle contracture was.
I went to NY to study with Edna Golandsky and she saved me from a life of pain. I've never had any problems since.
The most amazing thing is that beyond playing without pain, I can now play with eveness, speed and ease... I would have laughed at anyone that told me that Rachmaninoff Op. 23 no. 2 and Chopin Etudes could feel effortless and quite easy, but with the right tools, they ceetainly do.
I'm forever grateful to Edna for this and for being such an amazing mentor that has also allowed me to help so many pianists with their own problems
I met Edna Golandsky first when she visited my home city of Izmir back in 2015. Approaching everything in a systematic and consistent way really fascinated me at the time. Later the same year I went to the summer camp back at Princeton University where I stayed for a week full of seminars, lessons, concerts.... It has all become a critical part of my piano playing and helped me diagnose my problems before they even became one. Forever thankful!
I never thought I would get objective answers to the technical and musical issues in piano playing. The typical teacher will send you back week after week with the conclusion to issues that you simply haven't "practiced" enough. It was a blessing to meet Edna Golandsky who took me beyond my injuries and limitations to playing with freedom and being able to provide real and effective help to my own students. There is always a solution to your problems at the piano and that solution is the Taubman Approach!
You know what is also awful? When you are studying with a teacher that claims to have a healing technique herself - a Taubman based approach that, for whatever reason, deviated by separating arm and finger movements, and maintained an old fashioned consistently arched wrist - and get responses like "sometimes you have to do things at the keyboard just because they feel right!!" when she's sick of the sincere questions your asking about her approach. I wish we had a Taubman teacher in Maine . . .
My 25-year association with the Taubman Approach and my study during much of that time with Edna Golandsky have been life-changing for me. Before that time I had always thought of a great piano technique as something that depended mainly on talent, and that my technical limitations at the piano were the result of my not being talented enough. Coming into contact with Taubman has transformed my playing, my thinking and my teaching. Not only has this work made a tremendous difference in my life, but it has also positively impacted my piano students at SUNY Fredonia School of Music, with whom I've been able to share the fruits of this knowledge. A whole arsenal of healthy solutions to technical and musical problems has been made available to me and to them. Like music itself, it provides a lifetime of ongoing learning and fascination -- one can always learn more and continue to grow, creatively applying this knowledge to the specific and unique challenges offered by every piece and style. My gratitude to Dorothy, Edna and to all my colleagues and friends at the Golandsky Institute is boundless!
So let's all see and hear a video of your piano playing.
@@OE1FEU th-cam.com/video/mz2vl28rNIQ/w-d-xo.html here you go
@OE1FEU Here are some of his recordings.
th-cam.com/video/mz2vl28rNIQ/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=MarkSellers
th-cam.com/video/mYiEEbg86dY/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=FredoniaSchoolofMusic
I came to this work because I was injured and needed help. However, It turned out that this transformative journey was more than I had expected. It not only led me to painless and virtuoso playing , but also to freedom of musical expression. Mrs Golandsky, thank you for your thorough insight into the Taubman approach and sharing them with us!
I have very small hands and it was a constant struggle during my college years. Then I met Edna when she came to give a master class to my school and I was blessed enough to have a master class with her. It completely opened up a whole new world to me. The Taubman technique was introduced. My professor invited her and Robert Durso more for occasional workshop. I learned so much and it changed my playing. A lot of wrong movements and forcing was done due to my lack of technique knowledge and small size of my hands in my playing. All the technical theories they teach was basically lifesavers to my study. It requires patient analysis of everything-your own performance habits, understanding of each Tabuman techniques, analysis of music and choreography of the right movements etc. All of these are worth strive for. So grateful that I was introduced to this. Kudos to my professor who introduced this to me and R.I.P.
I am forever grateful to have come across the Taubman Approach, which helped me overcome playing-related injuries of more than 9 years after being sent from a never-ending series of specialists who were unable to help me. I am playing repertoire I would never have dreamed of playing before, through training to Master level certification can now train other teachers, help pianists avoid and overcome injury in my home country, Australia, and all over the world via online lessons. This year is the 20 year anniversary since I first went to the US to take part in a Taubman symposium. It is an honour to continue learning and deepening my knowledge with Edna Golandsky and also John Bloomfield. This work has completely changed the direction of my life. Thank you for sharing this content, and making this information available for those who are interested and curious.
This is essentially the study of Biomechanics.
We took courses in it for our Kinesiology major. Even though we analyzed movements typically performed in sports, it's not limited to just those actions, and I can very much see how important it is to study these piano forms and techniques to prevent injury, imbalances, and play this instrument beautifully. I find this incredibly interesting.
Huge Taubman fan
My work with Edna was quite simply life-changing (and hand-saving). So glad tonebase dedicated their videos to the Taubman approach. Nothing replaces the subtlety of in-person lessons (like any piano lessons) with a certified Taubman instructor, but these videos are a fine way for more pianists to get a taste of the basic aspects of the approach. Lisa Yui
THANKS for posting this priceless video. Edna is a “magician” teacher. Her knowledge of music and of the appropriate approach to the keyboard is peerless. On top of that, she is a very generous, warm human being. My gratitude to you for posting this, and to Edna for sharing. Best wishes!!
I'm learning piano at home some easy pieces and chords, good to know theres a technic for long therm safe learning
Piano technique is physics, pure and simple. You MUST understand the scientific principles that are the building blocks of piano technique. Whether you understand the principles through intuitive playing, or through a thorough study of them, you must understand them, one way or another.
Indeed. It's called Biomechanics, which is related to biophysics.
No , it is psychophysics
Great teaching!! Thanks for sharing!!
ma gurl Edna is a BIG G
congrats on 100k!! really thankful for your channel :) especially for the taubman videos you have provided which have saved my technique!
Edna is a complete inspiration and a genius of a teacher
I am glad I came across your platform.. great video
It helped me a lot. I recognized mistakes I was not aware of. And it is fun if fully understood and incorporated.
Watched the Virtuosity in a Box so so many times already, all of Golandsky's videos on her TH-cam etc. Big fan and would love to be able to meet her some day, if possible for a lesson 🙂
That song at 4:00 is Chopin's Nocturne in E minor. Op 72 Posth.
Thank you thank you!!
Thank you, Dame Edna !😁
Ben. Your session with Robert Durso and the Op 27 #2 last movement sold me. I'm now with a Taubman-trained teacher, and it's really fabulous. Also systematic, and something quite different than most of the practicing strategies and techniques I've had before.
I've done the usual stuff with using a metronome click by click to get to a desired tempo and it's been boring, arduous and not necessarily productive of musicality. I summed up how Taubman has worked for me to my teacher. "Velocity is no long a goal or an effort, but a choice. When I do things right, it just happens."
The videos are great, but one on one with a teacher is really the only way forward.
You went from learning the last movement of moonlight to a trained teacher in 7 months? Lol
Kinda discredits this approach doesn’t it
@@eugenelevin9809 No. There's a vid of Ben working with Robert Durso on that movement. Ben is already pro-level, and yet there was room for him to improve the way he played it, repairing various difficulties. That video is on Tonebaser
I'm making good progress with my teacher, but I'm not playing that movement. LOL
@@brianbuch1 I think your initial comment read "Im now a taubman trained teacher" instead of "im now with" so I was extremely confused. Or maybe I just read it wrong.
On a side note, I watched the video when it came out. Didn't like it. Robert never played it, neither could I find any decent recordings of any pianist using the overshape described in the video. If Perahia and Lisitsa are doing it wrong, so will I, lol.
Brian, since you’re trained in the Taubman approach, I have a question for you. As I understand it, Taubman said we should never use 4 on a black key when playing octaves. How do you play the octave trills in the two Brahms Concerti without using 4? I have large hands and sometimes use 3 playing octaves. Brahms worked with Tausig, and I’m convinced that’s where he got the idea for octave trills. Tausig uses it a lot II his transcriptions and often wrote 3 to play an octave. I played for Taubman in a masterclass after getting my masters at Juilliard. I didn’t think she was right for me and I don’t have what I would call technical problems. Thanks for your reply.
Awesome Advice
The exercises that are really useful are similar to what flamenco dancers use, circles with wrist, forearm full arm and shoulders.
Naaa, im pre sio nan te! La profundidad de lo que está diciendo. Amé
Gracias!
Ok. wow. Another level.
Legendary
Finally a mobile app!
By the time all the advertising played I learned Stravinsky’s Agon!
The video is inspiring! May I know the title of the music Edna played at the beginning? Sounds very familiar but just cannot recall it. Thanks!
Chopin Nocturne Op 72 No 1
I have been trying to learn how to play piano for nearly 4 years now. I have been searching TH-cam for techniques and applying them wrong cause I don't know what I'm doing. I just started practicing the wrist drop and know I find out that's wrong... this video has made so much sense! I thought I was crazy that I couldn't find ANYTHING that felt relaxed. I've been flipping through your Taubman Approach courses on Tonebase Piano. Which would you recommend I start off with? I would think I'd be a beginner. I can't read music, I can't play relaxed or coordinated at all. But I can compose music. So I know the note names. I can play the first MVT of Moonlight sonata but as said before "Wrong" so which course would you recommend I start out with on the this approach? Thank you so much!
PS. When I first started trying to play I naturally wanted to play with my forearms. I thought that was all wrong but now I wish I would have went with that urge and found this earlier.
I'm late, but I would like to point out that the goal isn't to play relaxed. Relaxation is one of the things that can make playing feel bad. Don't play relaxed, play in such a way that you can be free and neutral.
This is the way. How do I find a Taubman trained teacher near me? I want my children to learn this method.
I'd love to take up individual piano training with one of these Taubman Approach experts. Anyone knows where I could find them in SA ? ( South Australia )
You can do lessons online from a taubman trained teacher.
Therese Milanovic. Also Brenda Hunting (Brisbane) and Anthony van den Broek (Sydney). Others with Taubman experience are Justin Jacobs and Sonya Lifschitz (Melbourne).
You can find all this knowledge in TH-cam for free. It's not a secret more that modern piano playing body , wrist , elbow , Rotation... include
yesyesyesysmoreofthismoremoremore
Which Nocturne is she playing at 18:00? I must know!
Chopin Nocturne op 55 no 1
I would love to hear her perform a few pieces demonstrating the theory.
There's one thing she says which can be a bit misunderstood, when she says that tone production is about speed and weight. The thing is, the weight of your arm is held back by muscle tension. Essentially, when you think about weight, the focus should be on muscle tension.
For example, if I want to play one note louder than another, with the same hand; simply pressing with more weight won't make the note louder. They key has to be pressed faster in order to sound louder. However, since keys have weight and thus provide resistance, the finger with less tension will move the key more slowly, creating a softer sound; the finger bends to the weight of the key, such that less weight is transferred from your arm. Basically, it's a play on different finger tensions, as well as moving one finger down before the other (in order to play both notes at the same, but with varying speeds and thus varying loudness).
The term weight can be confusing because people will apply more weight and unnecessary tension on the key, when in reality, they simply need to relax the finger that is meant to be played softly, together with a slight rotating motion in order to play both notes at the same time but with varying loudness.
If Dorothy Taubman and her students do have the knowledge of "how to play", why the heck are the most important recordings and stages are full of musicians like Horowitz, Rubinstein, Richter, Gilles, Ashkenazy, Pollini, Benedetti-Michelangeli?
After I received my solo-diploma from the music conservatory after a few years I decided to quit my music career . So I went to Medical School and today I'm a qualified general surgeon. I didn't play piano for more than 20 years and meanwhile I found my wife and since I am privileged to have a satisfied sexual life, I'm absolutely relaxed. Because of my profession, I don't have that much time to practice but meanwhile I can play Rachmaninov IIId piano-concerto, Goldberg variations, "Petrouchka" or Brahms Paganini-variations. I don't rehearse each day but if, never more than approx. one hour. And it works.
When I was a piano student at music conservatory , I practiced way too much and I had serious problems with my hands. And I observe that too many "pianists " are residing in our entire world but only a minority of musicians. My access to music was the knowledge and history of composers and their operas , a sufficient sexual life and no more pressure to earn my money with it. This may appear like a "strange" approach and I only can talk for myself. But it works!
peter feutchwanger said similar things
I don't know, I'm going to disagree about all ten fingers being equal strength. Physiologically I don't think that's possible. The fourth finger is not as strong as, say, the first. Or maybe I read too much Chopin. Maybe she means to counteract that with using different speed and weight with different fingers so they are all roughly the same?
Also she doesn't mention the movement of the torso. When she demonstrates the outer rotation on the wrist, notice that she also leans to the right with her body. Which, done far enough, results in what Benjamin Zander would call "one buttock playing". 😁 Or leaning forward to add to the weight.
What I found helpful is that I was taught there three elements to striking the key: Distance, Speed, and Weight. I also feel like speed and weight are inextricably linked. When she was demonstrating speed she was also changing the weight (I think). But I'm not questioning this extremely knowledgeable person, or the method itslef. I'm no expert, I'm just a random guy on the internet rambling....
I know a lot of pianists who have never had injuries and who don’t understand what the big deal is with this Taubman approach. A lot of her teachings that make sense are the same in all modern schools of piano playing.
I agree with you. Fingers 4 and 5 are the weakest fingers. Notice how you can flatten your hand on a surface, then curl the third finger inward. Try lifting the 4th finger, and it’s basically impossible! The real problem are fingers 1-3 since, when it comes to passage work, they do the crossing over and under and 4 and 5 go along for the ride. Chopin was a piano teacher, too. He definitely understood the hand very well.
The way she’s adding “physical shaping” to her playing is actually aligning for the length of each finger, but also using a black key. Black keys are on the “second floor.” The longer the finger, the higher the wrist. Also, understanding where the hands are on the keyboard is important: whether both are at the center, opposite ends, on the right or the left. We have to act like xylophone players and adjust to where we need to be. They simply walk over. We need to lean a certain way to avoid wrist cocking. I encourage looking up a charcoal drawing of Brahms with both hands at the center of the keyboard. He’s leaning back (and not just because of his beer belly!)
Finger muscle (curved fingers) is really important in piano playing, especially in works of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc. It actually enables faster (and softer) playing because you’re in closer contact with the keys, and it just makes things easier to play.
I don’t think it’s completely necessary to add wrist rotation to everything either. I’d probably use it sparingly like if I have tremolos or broken octaves. Basically notes with larger intervals that need the back and forth motion.
She’s right about a lot of things like arm weight, the speed of key descent, tone production. There’s some value to what she’s saying. You can fill a whole library solely on piano technique and is based on the needs of the individual and situation; hand size matters, playing the thumb curved and not like a club (unless it’s a black key octave), the role of the fingers, arms, and wrist, etc. I shall digress!
When she talks about 10 strong fingers, she’s referring to the fact that no fingers *feel* weak when they are supported by the forearm behind it - which allows you to produce the sound that you want with any finger.
What you said about the torso is a great observation, and something that is addressed in the Taubman approach. She talks about it in other lectures. I remember several instances during my lessons with Edna where choreographing the movement of the torso correctly was enough to solve a difficult passage.
Hope it clarifies. 🙂
@@ArthurSimoesMusic Ah yes, that does clarify, thank you. I guess I should have known this short video was not actually a full detailing of the method. 😆
Guys, if you think your 4th and 5th fingers are weak, then you don't know how to use them. That's what taubman fixes.
🎹
I have a question for anyone trained in the Taubman approach:
I know she said to never put the fourth finger on black keys when playing octaves (I do constantly and even sometimes use the 3rd finger). How do you play the octave trills in the two Brahms Concerti without using 4? It’s not possible. I believe Brahms got this idea from his work with Tausig, as it’s a device which shows up frequently in his transcriptions.
Can someone provide an answer for that? Thanks! I played the Chopin Sonata 2 for Taubman once in a masterclass. I realized it wasn’t really for me. I will say I’ve never encountered any major issues with my technic and critics have accused me of being “too technical.” Whatever that means.
I think if your hands are big enough it’s fine, if you align yourself as soon as you press the key I do kind of a movement to straighten myself out and I usually get no issues (unless I get carried away).
I think having flexibility in wrists makes 4-5 easy, watch Michal Hambourg play there is a video on YT of her playing and she has one of the most relaxed technique (and a beautiful tone) I see and uses 4-5 all the time.
I think the Chopin quote is what matters the most for technique “flexibility above all”, that is really all you need. And understand when you tense you need to have a releasing action right after, if you do these things consistently and never mistakenly tense without releasing I don’t think you will have problems.
I would also thoguh as well love to hear the reasoning of a Taubman player on why not to use 4/5, there is clearly places where it may not be optimal for certain hands. I think the Chopin octave etude, Schumann toccata (except maybe some parts where it’s on black keys), or even Hungarian 6 it may very well be optimal physiologically to do just 5, but I think 4/5 leads to more musical results if it’s mastered.
The problem with some people using the taubman approach is that they think you can't play the piano properly without it and their videos sometimes sound like that as well. It's a tool, a useful one, for people (most of us really) who lack the physical awereness that is necessary to naturally developp these technique. Most famous pianist actually instinctively do most of the things that Golensky explains without thinking about it. It can't be a dogma.
Chopin for exemple was a fabulous teacher and admitted himself, at the end of his life, that he neglected using is 4th fingers. Before him, we were not supposed to use the thumb on a black key etc.
@@pablobear4241 thanks for your intelligent response. I have colleagues who trained in Taubman and I should also ask them about the octave trills.
@@julienmangin3441 I agree about most major artists having natural technic. Some of my teachers couldn’t explain things well verbally and I would simply watch them play and figure out what they were doing. They all had different gifts so I learned from every one of them.
@@danielgloverpiano7693 It's obviously a good way to learn. The thing is though, forearm rotation (for exemple) isn't easy to see with skilled pianist because the movement is almost invisible. It's something you need to feel. And some manage to feel it, but others don't. And the Taubman method is a good way for them to integrate this principle.
Most pianist in the world never hear about this method so it's obviously not necessary to be a good pianist, but it can help especially those who get injured because of the way they play.
Also see Zhdanov tutorials. He has spectacular lessons for highly advanced pianists.
He does indeed. 👍👍
So how does the Taubman approach differ (if it differs at all) from eg. Abby Whiteside, Jozsef Gat, Seymour Bernstein (and surely many many others) who also advocate the "whole body approach", wrist/hand rotation and "hands into the keys/out from the keys" approach?
the more I read them, the more like they urge to achieve the same end, but they all express and approach it differently.
@@linkthai1995 Actually, technically speaking, part of that end they all want is a musical end that is accomplished by very different technical approaches. As a trained Taubman teacher, a faculty member of the Golandsky Institute since 2005, I can tell you that the physical end is quite different from what some teachers offer. The end result of a successful Taubman technique is easy, non-fatiguing, unlimited playing with total control of sound and timing. There are no end of "great players" who produce beautiful music at a terrible price. Injuries in the profession abound, and I haven't found any other approach that can regularly get people out of trouble and expand their capabilities.
Taubman is packaged as the final word which it is not.. Seymour does not play with a Taubman approach.--The method becomes a dogma that many of us (teachers) believe it to be.
I learned piano technique as a child playing Joseph Haydn sonatas.
3:27
Where is this funny moment from?) 0:12
It is psychophysics. And word scientific is vague nowadays
The only lesson from this is to learn from people that can actually play the piano.
Just want to mention that any skeptics can't even play a C major scale adequately.
C major scale, fast four octaves is actually one of the more difficult ones
@@lorrainelager852Really?
@@kkngd391 with the standard fingering yes
@@lorrainelager852 is there an easier fingering????
@@kkngd391 C Major is actually one of the most difficult scales to play. Fun fact: the first scales Chopin taught to his beginning students were B and F-Sharp Majors.
I wonder if this technique would work on organ? We have to, so to speak, use finger pedaling to hold down notes that you would otherwise not have to on the piano to keep notes connected, which can cause tension.
The organ does not have the same mechanism
@@MozartFong yeah, true. Do you think some aspects of this technique would be beneficial to organists/harpsichordists?
I began my piano studies as a child with a Taubman teacher, so my hand technique is entirely Taubman. I took up the organ after almost 10 years of piano lessons, and spent a lot of time applying the technical principles to the organ. It’s entirely possible to play the organ using the principles, although I’m not sure if the Taubman teachers would agree that all technical demands at the organ can be done (ex. finger substitutions, 52-41 in parallel sixths, thumb legato from one white key to another or from a white key to a black key, or unusual fingerings such as crossing 3 over 4). Despite any doubt a Taubman teacher might have, as a student with a technique entirely Taubman, I have found ways on my own to apply the technique to meet all demands I have encountered at the organ, without any compromises. As an organ performance major, I’m beginning to write a paper for my own reference that addresses this issue, since injurious playing and technical difficulty is not only present in piano playing, but is common for organists too.
@@josephobrienorganist thank you so much for responding. I’ve never had an injury from playing, but I feel that learning a technique like this is imperative. I will research more about it. 😁
Sorry, but the discussion about "tone production" and "weight" is mostly nonsense. The tone of each note is created by the piano, and there is nothing that the performer can do about the tone of any note beyond adjusting the volume. The volume is controlled by the speed at which the key is depressed at the moment the hammer is launched. If you change the speed, you change the volume. To change the volume you must change the speed. That's it. All the rest, including "weight" (a misleading subject in itself), can be relevant biomechanically (reducing tension, making easier to play evenly, etc.) but it does not affect "tone" in the slightest. Biomechanics is incredibly important, not just in permitting the performer to depress the keys with the desired speed and timing (the only two variables relevant to the production of sound), but in avoiding injury. However, it does not help performers to fill their heads with mumbo jumbo about how sounds are actually produced.
Not exactly. Accelleration is different than speed. And different types of accellerarion have proven to produce different timbrical results in the piano (there are some beautiful phisics papers written about this). If you accellerate the key too roughly the vibrations of the hammer interfere with the vibrations of the string. A good accelleation pattern (wich includes speed and mass, usage of your weight) permits the string not to be contamined by outside vibrations. It's easier to visualize it when you hit a bell or a pot with a spoon, different types of hits produces different timbres.
I agree focussing on timbre can be a bit "snob" when there are more biomechanical problems first to be solved, but the phisical reallity of tone production cannot be ignored.
@@PabloGambaccini 👏
Hi John. I think you are basically correct. At the moment the hammer is launched, the ONLY player controllable state it has is velocity. Its position at the point of launch is a property of the mechanism. The player does control the acceleration up to the point of launch, but not afterwards, and all the control they have is encapsulated in the launch velocity.
I looked into this in great detail back around 2008. It bugged me for about a year. My take of the situation was the same as yours, both in my understanding of what happens in the piano, and the fact that it's unhelpful for musicians to believe / teach things that are not true.
One thing I did was compare my playing as a (mostly) organist with two concert pianists. (The exact setup was more complex, but I'll leave it at that for the sake of keeping this short). On a Yamaha digital weighted key piano, what you describe was absolutely true; they could not affect the tone any better than me. In fact, they had LESS control of the tone because they were unable to access very low velocities. Their Steinway technique did not work on the Yamaha.
On Steinway pianos, and to a (much) lesser extent on Yamaha grand pianos, it seemed to me that there were things they could do that DID affect the tone, but not in the simple sense.
Firstly, tone. Musicians argue about the meaning of this word, but I'm talking about the frequency spectrum either at a given point in the note's life, or throughout the note's life (instantaneous tone vs time giving rise to an overall sense of tone. This is crucial with the violin IMO). I found that the tone did seem to depend on the hammer velocity at the point the hammer hit the strings. I wondered whether this was due to the hammer deforming differently with different velocities, and due to the hammer being in contact with the string for different times (longer for higher velocities).
Secondly, dynamic range. The concert pianists had a HUGE dynamic range on the Steinways; much greater than mine at the time. They could, for example, very lightly tap the key - maybe throwing the mass of a finger at it with no tendon tension at the point of finger to key contact, or they could hurl much of their body mass from their waist upwards at the keys, producing a volume that could rival a full orchestra. At the time I could not. My Yamaha digital experience gave me a much more limited range of volume.
Putting those two together, tone being dependent on volume (or hammer velocity at impact point), and concert pianists having a huge control over the volume, I wondered whether their tone control ability (if they actually have it) depends on them controlling tone by controlling volume, regardless of the literal ppp / mf etc markings in the score. In short: yes it does. The actual volume they play does not correspond directly with the markings in the score. Illusory devices such as articulation and emphasizing the various beats in the bar differently are used to make it seem like it does. The ear works over a gigantic range of volume, and doesn't much mind what part of the range you use. Put another way, they can't play ppp with an aggressive tone, and can't play fff with a gentle tone. (In practice, the listener does not expect or want this).
One thing I learned is that on certain pianos (with large heavy hammers) at least, use of forearm weight and mass was very important.
Forearm weight was important for "weight transfer" i.e. enabling the fingers to climb between keys carefully, including lowering the keys in a velocity controlled way. I did not have this ability initially, and I therefore did not have access to the full volume range of the piano. If I pressed the keys too slowly, they either didn't sound or I got gaps between notes (non-legato), affecting perception of tone (though not actual tone). Weight transfer playing enables very quiet legato playing, and great volume control in general. (Forearm weight is also vital for violin bowing).
Forearm mass is used to create high volume notes. The forearms are thrown at the keys, and the muscles relax en route having done their job.
This gets me to my main point on tone.
Prior to this experiment, I mostly mixed with organists. They don't care enough about muscle tension IMO. They often just accumulate it until they get ill. Concert pianists, in my experience, take great care to avoid muscle tension.
For one thing, this enables them to avoid injury, despite playing many more notes than organists and with greater energy.
And for another, it enables them, IMO, to create a wide range of tone on the piano. Not in terms of controlling the tone of each individual note (other by using the possible volume-tone link above), but by doing things like striking the first note in the bar very hard, giving a loud chime effect, and the remaining notes very softly, facilitated by the low muscle tension.
BTW, in support of this last point, both of the concert pianists noted that I was playing with tension, and that it was creating a ~ heavy sound.
Finally, precision use of the dampers, either per key or using the sustaining pedal seems to create a sense of tone change to listeners. Also, there's the left pedal and sostenuto pedals to consider. One of the concert pianists uses the left pedal (of Steinways) to a varying degree, even within a bar, claiming in affects tone. Stephen Hough uses the right pedal to varying degrees, presumably giving him control over the note decay time.
In summary, pianists do seem to have at least some control over the listener's perception of tone, though with the exceptions of volume influenced tone and left pedal influenced tone, it's not done by controlling the (near) instantaneous tone, but instead over longer time periods. Hence playing the piano is an art not a science, though I agree wholeheartedly with you that we should evict all incorrect ideas on what's possible with a piano.
I hope this is of interest to you. I wrote it quickly in a tiny window on a phone app, so there may be some mistakes. Feel free to ask for clarification.
All the above was done subjectively. I have access to two Steinway's, and good audio tools, so I could do a qualitative analysis some time if you are interested.
And then I'll submit all this for a PhD! 😄
John Bladen PhD 2008-2023.
Also:
• Steinway patented action.
• Is there any control of the hammer launch position?
• A good way to discover what a concert pianist actually does to control tone perception is to restrict what they can do until it stops happening.
99.99% of injuries come from trying to play pieces which are FAR too advanced for your technique. It also leads to physiological and confidence problems because you can't make music, enjoy music or bring your musical impulses to the keys. Shelve your unproductive pieces, focus on good sounding music at a level you can play. e.g. Bartok Mikrokosmos, Haydn partitas, simply Bach pieces, etc.
Like all tools, your body will withstand the wear and tear until it eventually fails. Sure, you can play in 1st gear all your life and suffer no aches and pains but in my view, one will never fully communicate the extremes of musical expression this way. Sorry to be so fatalistic!
Ideally you have maximum expression and no aches with an ergonomic technique.
Gyorgy Sandor claimed to be such an example, and perhaps a few more. Yet I don’t know if they were great pianists themselves
@@lorrainelager852 yeh I certainly get what they're saying but just don't think it holds true for the majority of cases. Of course some pianists are blessed and have better joints (for example). Gyorgy Sandor was a huge dude for memory and that would definitely help in ease of making a big sound.
No. It is possible to play in 5th gear and not get injured.
Scientific? How did they experiment to verify if there hypothesis is valid? That the technique is really better? They are so many variables between pianist…
your sound level of the video is too low; the other clips used a slightly louder, but still overall the sound level too low, very inconvenient. Find someone who can make your sound louder for mastering for YT standards
Does Edna ever play more than 3 notes together? What she plays sounds/looks rather stiff and unexpressive.
She has a master’s degree from Juilliard, you think she can’t play??? She’s devoted herself to teaching, helping pianists and students recover from injuries, and avoid them in the first place by not using motions that eventually cause injuries, like stretching the fingers into unnatural positions in an effort to connect the keys at all costs to achieve a legato effect, and twisting at the wrist. I’ve heard her play “more than 3 notes together”, and she plays beautifully. Of course, it’s a matter of individual taste. Not all pianists are to one’s liking. Some like Pollini, others Perahia, etc.
@@jowr2000 Where are the recordings? After 40+ years of selling this quackery there must be a Beethoven Sonata floating around somewhere to show the cult followers the final result!?
@@jowr2000 besides..you can easily fix all these technical problems by yourself by reading Leimer/Gieseking/Neuhaus and being patient while studying with an absolute focus on interpretation and how the music should SOUND.
@@jesseth9419 not having recordings certainly doesn't mean a person isn't a talented pianist. That's absurd.
@@jesseth9419 the cult followers are those whose injuries have been cured and whose ease at the keyboard has improved.
Pain may be a sign of poor technique, but I fear that this often leads to unnecessary shame in young pianists. It's important to remember that you can even experience pain even with excellent technique. There are a lot of things that can contribute to muscle/tendon pain. Some people are simply more prone to it than others.
As a surgeon and a pianist, continuing to play through pain is a sign something is wrong. Focal dystonia is devastating and playing through pain for long enough will get someone to that point. Same goes for operating. It should never hurt my hands.
Pain is more complex than faulty biomechanics. Psychological stress for example. Although many injured musicians experience both
I cannot say here what I think of this. It involves the words of a pasture animal, the male of the species, and the end result of unused part from digestive process.
Dude, I want to hear about the technique, not your opinion of the technique
Artistic approachto piano „technique“ is highly individual.Physical aspect of music is very very individual and each should find his own approach how to his own body supports the music. I do not tend to belive that there is a general pattern. As great pianist M.J.Pires once said:“if it is technique,then it is not the music“…
You nailed it. Frankly I, and other teachers don't buy into the so called Taubman technique.. esp re: its ultra negation of the role of the supple wrist, and the Taubman's absolutism. I find that Edna's playing or demonstrations are not free, relaxed and expressive.
We all have the same basic structure to our playing mechanisms (the fingers, hands, and forearms) so there should be many principles that are near-universal, which the Taubman Approach outlines. Taubman eliminates six motions (stretching, curling, twisting, collapsing, forcing, and isolating) that are unhealthy and can lead to pain, fatigue, and injury for any person with typically structured anatomy.
Technique is not the music, but it is what allows the music to happen - a great interpretation must be executed, and Taubman advocates would say it should be executed with no discomfort at all, which can only happen once the right motions are in place.
@@ShirleyKirsten Taubman thinking still allows the wrist to be supple. Pedagogically, alignment is stressed early on since students usually have collapsing or active motions in their wrists. However, you will see that when Golandsky, Durso, and others following the approach play, their wrists move passively up and down as a result of the hand opening and closing and other motions initiated in the forearm. I think you would change your mind if you heard Edna's playing on the DVD "The Forgotten Lines" (free on her website), where she demonstrates many passages from a musical perspective. Some of the playing is really gorgeous.
Sadly, when I watch her protege Edna Golandsky demonstrate, the playing is unmusical.. Others feel the same.. hardly any phrase shaping or nuance.Too mechanical. Choreography stems from the musical line.
@@InfluxDecline
it never helped me.. but vive la difference..each to his own..@@InfluxDecline
Just stay focused on rhythm and where you're playing on the piano, technique will come naturally. Mechanically trying to leanr it is so sterile, it takes away from the music/rhythms
Next tutorial: how to stop talking with that super annoying vocal fry!!!
He talks to much
So much nonsense at beginning
The key doesn't have different speeds. It's all done automatically by the internal mechanism
Wrong! The faster you strike a key, the stronger the impact, creating a louder sound. This is basic physics.
@@PassionPno are you a physicist? Of course if you strike harder (not faster) the sound gets louder. That's the whole purpose of piano forte. But the difference is relatively small compared to just playing more notes at the same time. However, every piano has limits on the response time that mean that a violinist can play faster, especially on repeated notes.
@@meyerbeer13 Are YOU a physicist? The relevant area of physics is that of conservation of energy and collisions. Your fingers collide with the keys when playing the piano. The energy that your finger has is equal to mass times velocity squared. (KE = mv^2). Then, a certain amount of that energy is transferred into the key-- in an elastic collision, all energy is transferred and in a inelastic collision some energy is lost. The degree of elasticity of a collision is determined by the coefficient of restitution which depends on the angle of collision and the materials involved. You can also "leak" energy by a break in the system. Like if you keep your wrist straight versus drop it when you finger hits the key. Got it?
Great. So you cannot change the mass of your arm/hand/finger. You may change speed and angle. You may also break the continuity of the finger/hand/arm (which is essentially just changing the mass that goes into the key by redirecting part of it) So when you say-- "play harder" -- its utterly unclear what you mean. You may either play with a different speed, a different angle or with energy leak. Most methods teach avoiding energy leaks which are inefficient. Also, when playing rapidly, its not possible to substantially change points of leakage. So you are left with angle into the key and speed. But then, your angle is limited-- can't come at the key sideways after all.... So finger velocity into the key is the PRIMARY, and damned near the only method of changing the Kinetic energy transferred from finger to the key. There is no "harder." Only slow and fast key speeds.
Now-- the key will move at a certain velocity-- which is 100% dependent on the energy transferred from the finger. The key velocity determines the hammer velocity uniformly. This is because the key, lever and hammer mechanism (i.e., the action) is unchanged with a fixed amount of energy loss. In summary-- finger velocity determines hammer velocity.
Stephanie was correct. It is indeed basic physics.
@@cbrock21 you know nothing about the piano mechanism which is actually more important than what your finger does. On a violin the bow transmits the subtleties of your arm and finger movements close to 100%. The piano is close to 25% if that. So many fancy movements you might see a pianist make are for show and don't affect the sound.
@@cbrock21
Why do these respectable folks never actually play anything? I want to see these principles in action.
Because they can't :).
@@jesseth9419act… Because you’d realize they don’t have any better of a tone than we do. It’s a hustle .
They are pedagogues, not performers on tour...
not like u can play anything either.
@@MozartFong W're not talking about performing, but about playing. The problem is that these people portray themselves as the truth for 40+ years, but never play more than 10 seconds. And what they demonstrate sounds harsh, stiff and unexpressive, so the opposite of what they're preaching.
I don't buy any of that. Great channel, though.
That's because u don't understand physiology or physics.
Smart man!
I'm lucky never to have a teacher talk about rotation. That's probably what hurts people.
@@nicolasgut6534 I'd rather watch Alfred Cortot or Rubinstein.
@@meyerbeer13 Any great pianist uses rotation, most of them just didn't need an in depth explanation to do so, it came naturally. The taubman approach is just a method that allows more average pianists without this instinct to understand where their limitations are. It's just impossible to be an accomplished pianist without using rotation.
@@julienmangin3441 actually the great pianists don't use rotation it's useful for debutants in a salon though
@@julienmangin3441 th-cam.com/video/qDBDBpQH5Hw/w-d-xo.html
@@meyerbeer13 Mark my words, ANY decent pianist since the the XIXth century has used rotation. If you don't know that, you still have a lot to learn about the piano. There's just not way around it, even if it's not explained like the Taubman approach. That's the only way to efficiently transfer the weight between your fingers.
This kind of micro analysis of our physical movement is exactly what's fundamentally wrong not just with the current popular understanding of how the grand piano works and our bodies are supposed to interact with it, but in general any physical activity in the modern world, especially when it comes to sports. And it's exactly what the one person on record that could actually play the piano (Dinu Lipatti) advised against very strongly.
By the way I wrote grand piano instead of just "piano" on purpose - to highlight the fact that only what we call "the grand piano" is actually a piano.
Unfortunately atm we use the word piano to describe all sorts of abominations that have nothing to do with being a piano. For avoidance of doubt: to qualify to be called a piano the instrument must include a full grand piano action. The upright "piano", for example, is not a piano at all. I've no idea wtf that thing is supposed to be, but it sure isn't a piano. In fact, all upright pianos (without exception) should be chopped up and used for firewood. Which makes it particularly hilarious when you consider that some piano manufacturers sell their uprights for $40K...I guess you pay extra for the privilege of using an unplayable device that will seriously hurt you and damage your physique in the long run!:D
Incidentally I don't think I've ever heard any of these so called "experts at the piano" mention this fundamental fact.
Which just goes to show that the proof is always in the pudding. I.e. how did a man 70 odd years ago play the piano so much better than all of them (a man who, incidentally, was seriously ill at the time of making most of his recordings)? It's because he knew what he was doing, whereas, frankly these people haven't an effin clue....And as mentioned previously, the proof is in the pudding.
If you're a young person or anyone learning the piano with aspirations of becoming a concert pianist or just playing the piano well for your own pleasure, do yourself a favour and ignore any and all of the type of nonsense described in this video.
Until someone can provide a convincing, verifiable explanation of how Dinu Lipatti played the piano, I'm sorry to break it to you, but you're mostly on your own.
However, a good starting point is to stay away from anything that's not a well regulated and well maintained grand piano accompanied by a preferably flat (no buttons) adjustable piano stool (which is what evidence suggest Lipatti used). Luckily nowadays both are abundant and as affordable as anything else you might consider. Beyond that, don't sit like a cowboy and don't sit high (because, once again, evidence suggests it's what Lipatti's interaction with the piano looked like) and you should be good to go.
What a huge pile of BS! Facepalm!
Dude, who hurt you?
@@Montagic Are you high? Or just pissed cos your bs paradigm is being demolished and you got nothing better than baseless ad hominem?
So just get a grand piano, and figure out the rest yourself? Try to emulate one of the greatest pianists?
I'm glad you aren't my piano teacher.
@@Fristytoes It's a far, far better option than taking advice from these people...and they are the vast majority. So yes, you're more likely to be successful if you stay away from them completely than if you don't....unless you want to learn how to play the piano badly...then of course be my guest.
Also, are you seriously suggesting we shouldn't attempt to understand how it's achieved and in turn emulate the competency of THE greatest recorded pianist? Cos if yes, well then I'm sure glad you were never my teacher...
By the way, not one of, but THE. On record he's entirely alone in what he was able to do at the piano and the fact that you haven't quite clocked that is telling to say the least.
Key speed = volume. period.
12:00
Does the piano care how you strike the keys? I have some issues believing in "tone". Sure, you can do everything you want to play relaxed with arm weight and eliminate useless and painful tension but I'm not sure that actually changes the tone. It changes the velocity with which you strike the key and the tone associated with that.
I don't think there's anything going on that can't be explained by physics, but of course this is just my humble opinion.
Of course removing tension from your playing will yield a noticeable change in sound. Playing is not how you play a single note, but how you go from note to note
When she says equally strong fingers, what does that mean? Fingers have no muscles, so how does one strengthen the fingers/make them equal?