Talking Mormonism and Christianity
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
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Please remember to keep all comments respectful (if you are a Christian, you represent Christ at all times) and on topic. Please, no foul language. Comments which do not follow these rules will be deleted. Critiques are fine, but they have to pertain specifically to the question discussed in the video- those who simply use comments as a platform will be blocked. Such is not a statement that you are a bad or dumb person, but that I don't think your participation will facilitate substantive discussion. I know some will take my enforcement to be too strict, uneven, or unfair- but ultimately it is what it is.
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Ex-mormon here now Orthodox. Excited to watch all of this.
Hey. I’m a ex Mormon(for 18 years) ex Atheist and ex Protestant going into Orthodoxy💯☦️❤️
Admirable
Man you just taught me more about my religion than any church leader ever did 😂. Gotta say I am considering converting to orthodoxy or Catholicism. Also have been looking into messianic Judaism a bit. Has anyone else looked into this? They claim to be practicing the religion as Christ intended without disregarding mosaic law.
Only the Orthodox Church can do that and is doing that. And “That” is teaching reality as Christ taught it. This isn’t a religion it’s just how the universe is made. Everyone else is a heretic. This isn’t try a Jesus.
Hi Adam, I'm an Ex-mormon who became Orthodox. I'm biased but I would recommend taking a look into Orthodoxy!
Ex Mormon here, entering Orthodox catechism soon. I thought this was a great video and it’s cool to see your perspective on Mormonism.
I’m not sure it’s accurate to assert that the Gods are ordered in a hierarchy. I’m not aware of any doctrine specifying the relationship that Earth’s God (Elohim) has to his previous God. To me it makes more sense that Gods would be equals after exaltation. Elohim is considered to be both omnipotent and omniscient by Mormons. I don’t see how an omnipotent being can be subordinate in any sense to another omnipotent being. As far as we know, Elohim’s state of being is the final state in exaltation, and Gods don’t take on additional qualities or honors by virtue of raising other humans to Godhood. I haven’t read all of Smith’s writings so if there’s something concerning this I would be interested.
I’m also not sure if your characterization of the relationship between Gods and Existence/Reality is the only option for a Mormon. Perhaps a Mormon could locate the principles that govern reality within an eternal self-propagating “Godly Nature”, and treat that Godly Nature as the “locus of reality”. Perhaps the uncreatedness of Intelligences would be difficult to work into this kind of framework. However I think it’s important to emphasize the perfection that Mormons take their God to have, and if a “God” is able to perfectly manipulate existence then who’s to say if the principles governing that manipulation are to be “located” in the God or in the manipulated universe? Note that Mormons agree with the statement that “God cannot Lie”, which seems to suggest that the Good is an inherent attribute of God (The Godly Nature?) rather than describing God as choosing to align himself with external universal principles.
Also disagree with the “dangerous cult” characterization in the comments here. The way Mormons interact within themselves and comport themselves to the world is very similar to seriously observed catholicism or seriously observed orthodoxy. They might seem “dangerous” if you’re a politically histrionic secular lib but imo they are generally docile conservative leaning people.
Also if you’re interested in mormon cosmology you’ve gotta check out the Mormon hymn “if you could hie to Kolob” :)
Several cults that ended in their charismatic leader raping and sadistically murdering his followers were outgrowths of the Mormon tradition. So yes, in most cases Mormons are going to be innocuous but such preposterous and bizarre apostasies do occasionally give rise to dangerous men and sanguinary cults. See Ervin Labron, Ronald Lafferty, Warren Jeffs, Chad Daybell and numerous others.
I second that. Not a crazy cult. Not a stupid religion. A serious religion with good-hearted kind people. Doesn't mean it's correct, but we non-LDS Christians should stop gossiping about it. It just makes people more interested in it when they realise it is nothing like it is drummed up to be
@@quidestveritas I second your second. LOL. Well-said. And what Blue Heron said -- "generally docile conservative leaning people" -- is SO true. They are not a cult. I'm also an ex-Mormon and plan to hopefully become a catechumen in the ROCOR.
@@quidestveritas I'm not sure about the serious religion part. It's an incoherent polytheist religion with people who act friendly to your face but when you don't express interest in their religion, they turn on you and could care less about you. It's not gossiping to warn others about it.
I too am an ex Mormon hoping to become a catechumen in due time. I found the vast portion of Mormons to be conscientious and kind people. The one thing I love about Orthodoxy that is very similar to the Mormons is the reverant tone about the church.
Hey Seraphim! Long time listener who loves your stuff, but I think you’re off on your evaluation of the 19th dynasty for the Exodus. I think a strong case be made for the validity of the Exodus without resorting to diminishing its impact and scale. I’d be interested in hearing your objections to a 19th dynasty date. I happen to be somewhat qualified to speak on this topic as well if you are interested in discussion (MA in Ancient Near Eastern Archaeology and a current PhD candidate in Ancient Near Eastern Archaeology).
That is the most generous and insightful summary of "Orthodox" LDS theology I've ever heard from a ""non-member"". I'm not LDS btw, but I looked into it seriously for a few years after my brother converted. You clearly know your stuff. You accurately went over the whole LDS metaphysic.
Your discussion after that about Smith and the historicity of The Book of Mormon was very interesting. You are the clearest and, again, the most generous voice I have heard on this subject. These are serious issues and in our times people are longing for true answers, and because of the emphasis of the LDS church on conversion and achieving a "testimony", and thanks to its wonderful narrative and the elements of LDS theology which harmonise so well with the modern philosophies (technology, progress, empericism etc) of Smith's day and of our own, the LDS church is compelling. I myself have found far deeper spirituality in the monastic tradition of Orthodoxy, but many people are not called to look so deeply into things. So, like you say, we have to be careful when we make arguments for or against Orthodoxy or LDS etc that we aren't making the same bad arguments as the other side.
I think there is something profound about this particular Orthdoox-LDS dichotomy which can shine light on what is going on in these last days. There is deep, deep conflict between the two views on a spiritual level - I do not think the Holy Fathers would be particularly endeared by Smith's habit of treasure digging and hat-gazing. Yet, on a moral level, both are bastions of Christian values of love, chastity, family, etc. The Orthodox Church which is the "first church" and claims to be the preserver of all things. And the church of "Latter-Day Saints" which purports to be the "last church" and the restorer of all things.
I think it takes a lot of courage to be LDS, and I have met truly graceful members. But now having entered into the tradition of the Holy Fathers, I do sense that the LDS, like the rest of the world, are longing for the true, humble, mystical spirituality of the Fathers and the original understanding of the mysteries of Christianity, as preserved in Orthodoxy, rather than a well-meaning 19th century Gnostic/Masonic Christian synthesis.
But I'm still figuring it out and trying to go on God's path, so I certainly don't judge them and I should probably keep my mouth shut for the time being!
Through the prayers of our Holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy upon us and save us. Amen.
It's interesting that I've been studying the doctrines of Christ my whole life and only recently have gone down the rabbit hole of Joseph of Egypts divining cup, the Old testament accounts of seer.stones (urim and Jewish thummim) Jewish historical accounts that Abraham had a divining stone and that there were special stones that emitted light...which Noah was given to light the ark. Smith translated stories about similar stones in the BOM guiding Israelites to the New world.
There are also apocryphal accounts of things like:
The secret gospel of Mark
The armenian book of Adam and Eve
Book of the Giants
Which were all discovered in the modern era (some after Smiths death) that contain LDS doctrines and details that Smith simply could not have known.
To say nothing of the coincidences between Abrahams endowment of power in the Pearl of Great price and what's written on the walls of 4000 year old Egyptian Temples.
The status signaling & superficial crucifying of Mormon doctrine in our culture is annoying( IMO) when you start to consider that much of what has been accepted as Christian dogma is likely to be, at best incomplete, and at worst incorrect.
I admire your measured approach but I completely disagree that Mormons, I'll speak for myself, am longing for spiritual mysticism. I think we see the same trend today that we saw in the NT which is that few believers will search for truth outside of the guardrails of their tribe and traditions. I don't think ts a concidence that there is more overlap between Orthodoxy and LDS than other newer denominations.
Haven't watched the video yet but it's off to a good start.
There seems to be a dichotomy of sorts between Mormonism and orthodox Christianity. They both incorporate ancient teachings and ordinances. In Mormonism the source of these ordinances and doctrines seem to come from the ancient polytheistic traditions (Egyptian, Native American ceremonies, ma sonic, etc). I think a lot of people miss the commonalities between a Navajo sweat lodge ceremony and a LDS temple endowment and ma sonic ritual. These ordinances and doctrines are more downplayed in the average sunday service and the church is packaged and branded as a typical Christian denomination. Almost deceptively. Orthodox Christianity looks more like it came directly from Judaism to me. Where you have a sacrifice (the communion) given to be cleansed of sin similar to what was done anciently by the Jews in the temple of Jerusalem. You also have a very clear De emphasis of the individual in orthodoxy. The person subjects and submits themself to God . There is a much greater emphasis on the individual in Mormonism. I say that as someone who grew up Mormon what I’ve noticed.
LDS sometimes point to Theosis to justify their believe historically but is totally different.
@@ConfessingExalterthe first part is doctrine, the 2nd part is not doctrine any more than Christ literally becomes the Father...which he doesn't.
Would you be willing to do a "cheat sheet" on important apologetic points to convert your mormon family members to Orthodoxy?
the structure of mormonism seems like a counterfeit in certain ways, like their emphasis on a form of Theosis, and having a sacramental structure.
It wouldn't be a Kabane video without the dog snoring!
Is the metaphysical materialism of Mormonism an assimilation of the post Enlightenment deism transitioning in it's logical conclusion to materialism and the pagan view of eternal Universe (like a coping mechanism to the intellectual debates of the that time)?
Awesome discussion! please make a follow-up video to this. I haven't heard any kind of challenges to the book of Mormon from this perspective. thank you
One of the most fascinating critiques of LDS Mormonism is from the faithists who follow the oahspe. Faithists are probably the strangest, and least well known, of the pseudo Christians . The last attempt at a mystical idea of Christianity totally separate from "tradition". The oahspe claims the gods of every major religion, including Mormonism, are really territorial demons. Which is not a foreign idea to Christians .
However, how the faithists dissect Mormonism is somewhat compelling. Imagine, a God that was once a man from a far away planet . Isn't it weird how his revelations, BOM , says their are other gods but he doesn't tell you their names or how to contact them? Isn't it weird the cosmic silence ? How these other gods aren't sending emissaries ? Or isn't it weird how our God doesn't tell us the name of his god? I mean, if he was a proper evangelist he would tell us about his beloved , heavenly father.
The Mormons leave this all up to mystery. It's all like this because God has yet to bring us into the fullness. The faithists explain this god is a demon that only divulges so much information so as to not directly lie but give just enough to be seen as good and wise.
Do you think there would be a spiritual problem for an orthodox christian family to use a homeschooling curriculum which was developed by a Mormon in collaboration with secular educators? If so, are there any homeschooling curriculums specifically developed by orthodox christians?
I'm specifically thalking about "the good and the beautiful" homeschooling curriculum.
Ex-mormon here. For 34 years. Just this statement about this pseudo-christian sect: DANGEROUS CULT.
That had to be a heck of a journey
Why so long to come to that realization? Genuinely interested.
@@MaximusWolfelots of shame and thought-stopping brainwashing id presume
hey, would you do something on JWs? I'd appreciate listening to your arguments against it. there are some JWs who have an academic approach to their claims, like Greg Stafford and Rolf Furuli. (there may be some more.) I haven't found much beside some evangelicals talking about them.
Hello Seraphim
In Orthodoxy or Old Testament, do any of the sacred garments come in direct contact with genitals or potentially human waste?
I appreciate your tone. By the way, you might already know about the channel “Mormonism With The Murph,” but an interesting interview with my friend Blake Ostler just premiered there yesterday. I’d be interested in hearing your general thoughts on his approach, if you have time to bookmark it and watch it at some point.
I hope to get back into apologetics myself, soon. I’m about to watch the rest of your video, and in coming days I might add a few thoughts here in the comments!
One time charged with violating a NY ordinance against Hat Gazing? (putting crystals etc in your hat and gazing down upon them to divine the future or whatever)
My point being that Smith had a record / reputation as a con man, didn't he, like Hubbard.
That's purportedly how he translated the plates. Don't know if it's related to any claims of him being a conman. I'm not LDS btw
Would it be correct to say that arguments like the argument from contingency or the 5 ways of Thomas Aquinas would refute mormonism just as much as atheism, given that mormonism believes that reality at it's most fundamental is a set of impersonal 'laws' that persons (like gods) that exist in the world and are subject to these laws are just really good at using for their own benefit?
Hey @seraphim Hamilton, I think my superchat wasn't read :( I was the one who asked whether you would do a debate with Matt Dillahunty on Modern Day Debates
Sorry! That's a pretty good idea. What topic would you like to see?
@@Seraphim-Hamilton A rematch after like 13 years? Lol. That would be epic. 15 year old Serro dunking on Dillahunty was extremely kek.
I'm sure this is a stupid question, but why 6,000 year earth vs the 7500 that the old bysantine calendar follows?
You get a very interesting symbolic significance to the gaps between certain key biblical events with the 6000 year reading, when I've asked Serro about it. It also gels better with his historical perspectives/chronology over all. For the prior see stuff from Peter Leithart and James Jordan.
The trinity is three gods.
No lmao
My goal isn't to insult you but even atheists grasp what the Trinity is. If you don't then the problem is with you either not being able to understand or you're doing it on purpose because it's easier for you
Mormonism has Islamic tier arguments.
Stop trying to be profoundly contrarian. It’s boring.
No as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of one Essence which can only be one God.
The Mormon Godhead is three gods, tri-theism as each have a different essence.