I was LDS for years. Became LDS after college, married a beautiful cradle LDS lady I met in a singles ward, served in the Bishopric, on the Stake High Council, and then started reading LDS history. Big mistake for my LDS faith! It was a long journey, fraught with challenges to our married life, but God got hold of my life and my wife's heart . . . we entered Christianity in a Baptist Church, researched Church history and became Orthodox and are now "back home" practicing Catholics. Praise God!
My wife is ex Mormon, coming from a Mormon family. Her family always treated me so kindly, way better than my own southern baptist family. Even after I converted to catholicism they still treat me well, and were more supportive of my conversion than my evangelical parents.
Dennis Prager once said at a forum that the true test of any religion is how its people behave. I like Rory Sutherland's take "It aint crazy if it works"
@@stevenlester985 _"...that’s a weird way of describing what Christ commands us to do."_ Are you denying that the literal worship of ritual human sacrifice is the core tent of Christianity? You know, that cross thing and John 3:16... Paul created Christianity in 48 AD and this is how he put it: Romans 8:32 "He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all." 1 Corinthians 5:7 "Christ our passover is sacrificed for us." Romans 3:25 "God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement." Romans 5:8 "God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us." Hebrews 10:10 "We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ."
@@stevenlester985 _"...that’s a weird way of describing what Christ commands us to do."_ Should we expect God to know what the Ten Commandments are? Which was Jesus's sixth commandment? (Notice that Jesus lists only the secular commandments that make no mention of God): 1. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. (Matthew 19:17-19) 2. Honor thy father and mother: Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honor thy father and mother. (Mark 10:19) 3. There was no sixth. Jesus listed only five commandments: Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor thy father and thy mother. (Luke 18:20)
Belief in the Catholic faith is not based on a single piece of evidence, such as the sincerity of the apostles, but on the totality of all the evidence. And it's overwhelming.
It all is j st one thing though. The resurrection. Issue is even if I grant you that Judaism is truth because we have equaled that miracle even today. It doesnt equal Sinai so you cant alter the covenant. That and Jesus is in hell
I too was a devout mormon. (6 generations). Found out that Joseph Smith wasn’t true. Left at 33 yrs old. Joined a baptist church and nondenominational for 20 plus yrs. Found the church fathers thru a Catholic who just invited me to look them up! I’ve studied for 6 yrs. Now just trying to get in the Catholic Church! 😀 not an easy task.😜🙏🏻 but trusting God through it. Please pray for me.🙏🏻❤️
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is God's and Jesus Christ one and only true church here on earth. We know and teach the Bible and gospel better than any other denomination. To put it bluntly, the gospel every other Christian denomination (including the Catholic Church) teaches is a watered down version of what God's and Jesus Christ true gospel really is. The Catholics corrupted the gospel. Rejoin God and Jesus Christ in their Kingdom and rejoin their true church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and learn all that they have to offer. Learn of their glory and mercy, learn of the plan they have of you
@@MeanBeanComedy _"We know all about your different worlds of heaven."_ LOL You say you know the "deets" of my religion but get them wrong. They aren't worlds but degrees in the same place. The Early Church Fathers even mentions them and gives details, would you like those quotes?
@dylanwilliams2202 You are being smug in your refutation over a technicality. The person you are responding to is correct in the ways that matter, and you aren't even correct. The celestial kingdom has degrees within it, but the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms are both described as completely different realms/places. At best, the issue of whether or not they are on different worlds would be unsettled and the idea that they are would be perfectly compatible with LDS theology. I'll bite. What quotes are you referencing?
@@bearistotle2820 The very early Church Father, Papias understood that the Saviour's three degrees of 'fruitfulness' (Matthew 13:8, Matthew 13:23) corresponded to the Pauline three 'heavens' or 'glories' (1 Corinthians 15:41). According to him (as recorded in the first century account of Polycarp), the 'Elders' agreed that “Those who are deemed worthy of an abode in Heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendor of the City. For everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see him. But that there is this *distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixtyfold, and that of those who produce thirtyfold; for the first will be taken up into Heaven; the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the City; and that on this account the Lord said, “In my house are many mansions”' for all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling place, even as his word says, that a share is given to all by the Father, according as each is or shall be worthy.”* That was also quoted by Irenaeus in his book. Origen, in the early third century, revealed that the early Church interpreted this passage in essentially the same way “Our understanding of the passage indeed is, that the Apostle, *wishing to describe the great difference among those who rise again in glory,* i.e., of the saints, borrowed a comparison from the heavenly bodies, saying, "One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, another the glory of the stars” (Origen, De Principiis 2, Chapter 10 paragraph 2) Clement of Alexandria also expressed belief in the three degrees, and echoed the Lord's revelation to Joseph Smith that those in the highest degree "are gods, even the sons of God." From Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6 chapter 14 titled “degrees of heaven”, “Conformably, therefore, there are various abodes, according to the worth of those who have believed . . . . *These chosen abodes, which are three, are indicated by the numbers in the Gospel--the thirty, the sixty, the hundred.* And the perfect inheritance belongs to those who attain to "a perfect man," according to the image of the Lord . . . . To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord Himself taught.” Clement also preached that the three gradations of glory are procured by virtue of three types of actions: [Clement of Alexandria] reckons three kinds of actions, the first of which is . . . right or perfect action, which is characteristic of the perfect man and Gnostic alone, and raises him to the height of glory. The second is the class of . . . medium, or intermediate actions, which are done by less perfect believers, and procure a lower grade of glory. In the third place he reckons sinful actions, which are done by those who fall away from salvation. Just like the Early Church Fathers In the vision of the kingdoms of glory to Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon (Doctrine and Covenants section 76), the Lord revealed that 1 Corinthians 15:40-41 is not just a comparison of earthly bodies with heavenly, but also a reference to the fact that there are three different major levels of glory to which a body can be resurrected: “And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one. And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one. And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differeth from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world.” (D&C 76:96-98)
Another former Mormon that became Catholic. Although Orthodox rather than Roman. I enjoy most of your stuff. Funny the way time changes things for us. If you were to say 10 years ago I’d be offering up prayers to Mary and the Saints I’d say you were crazy. My soul is finally at peace now. Love my Roman brothers!
What do you mean ? Either you are part of the holy, saint, unique and universal Catholic church in one of its 24 rites (Roman(or Latin), and the 23 eastern rites (Maronite, Gueze, Greek-Catholique, Melkite, Syro-Malabar, ....) which indeed have an Orthodox faith. Or you are part of the shismatic church that call itself orthodox and you are thus not part of the Catholic Church.
Well the official name of the church is “The Orthodox Catholic Church” and we say the Creed every week expressing the belief in one Catholic Church and talk to every Orthodox priest and they will say we are Catholic but what do I know?
@@maten146 neither are universal in any real sense. Exclusion of communities who believe the exact same thing in regards to the gospel of Jesus Christ can not, by definition, be part of a "universal" church. Simply calling yourself that or calling yourself orthodox doesn't do the trick, or would you believe that the mormons are the "saints of the latter days"?
@@bearistotle2820you're still alive! Nice to see you again my friend haha I meant to ask you years ago if your name had anything to do with a certain tall man who now lives in Idaho.
Love the line from the s t.the voyage home. Spock is mind melting with Gracie the blue whale is her name in the tank. Kirk to the whale specialist: " He did too much L.D.S in the sixtys. ". Thats what Roseanne Barr says too
What's interesting about the LDS Church is that they claim they're the "restored" Church of the Apostolic Age. Yet, when you read the Apostolic Fathers (Ignatius mainly) and the Didache, we can see that the Church of the Apostolic Age has really no theological similarities. I recommend to every Mormon to read the Didache.
Same, what I was taught about Catholicism and the early years of Christianity during my Mormon childhood is completely unrelated to reality. When I started studying actual history my Mormon “testimony” got knee-capped.
What about the "12" apostles (?) If Christ church continued (after the death of the apostles) why weren't the apostles replaced? (I think the councils of nicea and others) sort of made the catholic church more of a "state" religion (with pieces of truth, but also to keep it under control, shroud it in mysticism and nebualties) also taking away "core" doctrines (which was proven) like the concept of our "Pre-mortal" lives (meaning we lived with God and Jesus) before our births and we just weren't "snapped into existence". As per the "12" have you ever seen the Chosen series? (really good, I highly recommend it).
Thanks for the video. I was born and raised LDS. I also served a mission and taught about the Book of Mormon for two years. I'm 35 now and, for a variety of reasons that would be too long to list here, recently came to the conclusion that the book isn't what I thought it was/what it claims to be. That conclusion has left me reeling because of it's implications, so I've been engaged in listening to a lot of apologetics recently while I try and piece my faith back together. Your channel has been refreshing and I appreciate you taking time to touch on this. Consider this a request for you to do more videos on the subject.
Biggens - As an active LDS member, I tell people that if their church had a better value proposition I would leave tomorrow. it's essentially a trade. I am promised exaltation, eternal marriage, temple worship, covenant blessings, spiritual inspiration, and physical protection...which I believe I have received in spades. What do I get if I trade that in to become Catholic, or join an online church like Apologia - or become agnostic/atheist? Where is the best long-term ROI for myself and the kids...do you have kids? Were you able to trade up for something better? I'd be interested in a similar trade.
@MBiggens, I was a devout Latter-Day Saint my entire life. And when I say devout, I mean I was all in. Then I learned about Sacred Tradition and the Church fathers. I eventually came to the conclusion that either Christ's church was lost and had to be restored, or it had always been on earth just as he promised (Ephesians 5:29-30; Matthew 16:18; John 14:16, 18). It was at this point that I realized I had to address my concerns regarding the JST. In short, I found the Bible to be the most/only reliable book of scripture. Eventually after much studying and prayer, I was baptized into the Catholic church 2 months ago, at age 36. I wish you the best in your journey and I hope you will soon join us!
@@rhamsesmartinez5007 Thanks for sharing! I've actually been attending mass for the past couple of months and plan to start RCIA in around September. My wife went through a similar process and has recently been baptized at a non-denominational evangelical church. It puts us in a strange situation, but I trust that God will do His own work in us and guide us to where we're supposed to be as long as we seek sincerely. Best wishes to you moving forward as well!
Man, I'm so stoked for this video. I used to be mormon and I'm reading about Catholicism. I've been waiting for Trent to do a video about this. I'm going to save it for tomorrow after work as a reward for making it through another shift. Lol. Love your videos.
If you'd like a place to ask questions about Catholicism, I highly recommend checking out crossthetiber.org There's a lot of good folks there that are happy to answer questions and point you to great resources. -Kyle
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is God's and Jesus Christ one and only true church here on earth. We know and teach the Bible and gospel better than any other denomination. To put it bluntly, the gospel every other Christian denomination (including the Catholic Church) teaches is a watered down version of what God's and Jesus Christ true gospel really is. The Catholics corrupted the gospel. Rejoin God and Jesus Christ in their Kingdom and rejoin their true church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and learn all that they have to offer. Learn of their glory and mercy, learn of the plan they have of you
@@dylanwilliams2202your “prophet”literally pulled “revelations” out of his ass left right and center for his own convenience lol. Why would I follow such a phony religion?
The Egyptologist info on the above video needs to be updated. As Paul Gregersen demonstrates that Joseph Smith was right, the Egyptologists were wrong.
Knew some lovely Mormon folks in college. Friendly, well dressed, and pretty fun to hang out with. Eventually I did find the Catholic center so slowly stopped seeing them, but they weren’t too disappointed about it. Even went with them to their temple down in Houston, which was…. Different for me. One of the guys told me he actually “stood in” for his deceased relatives there, something like 10 times he was ‘baptized’ in their place. Still don’t really understand how that became a practice with Mormons, but I feel that way about a lot of non-Catholic practices. At the end of the day though, I do feel a bit sad for Mormons/LDS folks. Yes they seem happy and all that, but I just can’t understand how they can reconcile such strange ideas when compared to basic history. Catholics get the same accusation of course, but most of those accusations can be refuted with solid evidence if the accuser is willing to argue in good faith. Mormonism though, I just don’t see the same level 🤷♀️
It's a great question. Paul instructed disciples re:this practice in Corinthians chapter 15. Reconciliation comes with study and understanding. it actually makes sense if you try and figure out how someone could be condemned to hell for not having an opportunity to be baptized...which incidentally is how the practice of infant baptism began. Why would God condemn innocent babies to hell, limbo, etc while a sinful baptized person is saved? Isn't this far harder to reconcile than the belief that everyone will have an opportunity to accept or reject the gospel of Jesus Christ and have a baptism performed on their behalf?
@@HaleStorm49Paul mentioning something is FAR from him supporting something. Baptism does not make sense after death. If they are dead, they either get saved or not. If not, no prayer or ritual from third persons will help them.
@@HaleStorm49 Have you read the chapter? You cited the whole chapter so I guessed you did. He was not in the whole section teaching practices. It was debunking! Baptism was already discussed in other letters and it was clear the why and how. Read it well: In that section he is first criticizing a specific heresy that believed that the unbaptized are annihilated at death - their soul just vanishes, nothing after. Jehovah's Witnesses is a modern heresy that advocates this, I believe. Right after he says basically if there's no soul, what are you baptizing anyway? The whole argument is about resurrection after death being FUNDAMENTAL to Christianity. "If Jesus was not resurrected, YOUR FAITH IS FUTILE" So brother, much what we know of baptism is all over the Bible, it's just not in that part. The whole Bible makes it extremely clear: Salvation is YOUR responsibility. You cannot save others by proxy! Why can't I then take a roster of the world's dead from the last 100 years and baptize them? Damn, let me baptize Hitler real quick, he'd go straight to heaven with no effort of his own!
As a Latter-day Saint/ long time fan of yours, I must applaud you for the high quality video. Though I obviously have my disagreements with what you've presented, overall it's a very well researched/ considered critique of our faith that deserves serious attention. Quite often people who criticize Mormonism do so from a blatantly misinformed perspective. It's refreshing to see somebody take our faith seriously enough to actually do their homework. Well done!
@@Jay_in_Japan Yeah. Back in like 2015 (kinda old news). Please tell me you don't think the CES letter is the pinnacle of critiques with regards to Mormonism? Dan Vogel for example (an actual scholar unlike Jeremy) is a much better source
Thanks Ethan. You saved me from writing out a comment. Although Trent is incorrect in quite a number of points I do appreciate him taking more time than most to research.
As an ex-Mormon and now (Evangelical Protestant) Christian, I would love to see further dialogue or debate between you and LDS apologists. I always really appreciate your reasoned approach even when I disagree with you.
Hey! Mormon here. You've made a lot of great content here and I've loosely followed you for a while now. Almost every single time I see a headline about Mormonism, it's almost a guarantee it's full of nonsense and misinformation. So honestly it was a relief to see that you actually attempted to depict our faith as accurately as possible. It's not hard to tell when someone has actually taken the time, and when they haven't. We tend to be an easy target or punching bag for larger Christendom so many tend to try to get away with half-baked research. I can tell you're acting in good faith though and I appreciate that. There are a few mistakes/ambiguities I'd like to correct if I may: - You said he had many spiritual wives, some of which were 14. For one, only a single one of these "wives" was 14, which was not considered wrong or especially unusual in his day. But further on that, she was only sealed to him for "eternity only". It may be helpful to understand how sealings worked at that time to understand why many of his "wives" were not wives in the way we picture them as sexual partners. - You said after Martin Harris lost the 116 pages Smith translated from other plates. That's not really true as there was only one set of plates. Instead he was told to simply continue translating from the same set rather than going back. Perhaps that's how you meant it, but I think at the very least that can be confusing for some. - On plurality of gods: We believe in a plurality of gods, sure...but only officially as a lowercase "g" god (which is how all publications spell it). Some Mormons speculate on "infinite regression" (God having his own Father and so on) but the Church itself does not embrace or teach that doctrine. It does embrace a version of theosis, however. But there is no official doctrine at all about multiple capital "G" Gods. Many LDS (including myself) do not agree with this speculative idea of infinite regress or multiple "Gods". Many of my arguments (though not all) are the same as the ones you gave. In fact the way you describe the Jewish concept of Yahweh is spot on my conception and the way I understand LDS doctrine. - On the King Follett Discourse, a few things of note which are somewhat compounding: 1) It is not as a whole considered doctrine. Prophets are human and sometimes speak for God and sometimes speak for themselves...fallibly. This was a funeral discourse, not an official prophecy. That doesn't mean we can reject it outright, but rather it is not necessarily a reliable source of doctrine. 2) There was never an official transcript but many and there appear to be some disagreements on some of these especially controversial points of God once supposedly being mortal. 3) Many interpret the discourse to suggest God himself was exalted from his own mortality. That doctrine is not taught nor embraced by the Church, but is simply the result of speculation of rank-and-file members without authority to declare so. - This one is nitpicky but...Lamanites is LAY-man-ahyts, and idk how you pronounced Zarahemla but it's just as it's spelled lol. That's more just a personal peeve haha. Those are mostly doctrinal points I think need clarification. There are lots of things I could push back on regarding geography or God just being some superpowered alien, etc. but that's a whole discussion of its own. I hope these points can be helpful. Again I can at least appreciate you critiquing and addressing this in good-faith and even-handedly. I'd be happy to discuss these topics with you, although I'd highly recommend you reach out to the channel "Thoughtful Faith" who is actually far more familiar with Catholicism and philosophy/theology more broadly as well as doing video discussions and debates. He's done thorough discussions on Trinitarianism and Creatio Ex Nihilo which you brought up before as well. Since you've given some critique of Mormonism, I hope you're willing to engage with some good-faith responses. Despite some disagreements, I respect what you do 🙏🏻
@@glennyskitchen9491 Understandable but again a few points on that: 1) Such young marriages were not uncommon for the early 19th century. 2) Her "marriage" to Joseph Smith was a sealing for "eternity only". Meaning there was little to no chance they actually had sexual relations. 3) Her parents were the ones that initiated and approved the whole thing with her approval as well. Consent all the way around. 4) Helen Mar Kimball was her name. She actually went on to very much defend her marriage and the institution of polygamy later in life. She was one of the strongest defenders of it. All of which seems to me rebuts the "creepiness" of it.
Please pray for my godmother, for whom I'm named. She married a Mormon when i was a child and she left the Church. A couple years ago she revealed to me that the Catholic Church had hurt her "very badly." I didn't get a chance to ask her what happened, but around the same time i learned that young girls in her age bracket, who were all from families of little means, had been abused by the parish priest. This was before Vatican II, for what it's worth. Many of the girls were being raised by their dads after their mothers died, or their mothers were very ill and hospitalized for some length of time. Being a farming community, the mothers didn't work outside the home, but contributed majorly to the family's income because everybody in the family worked on the farm. My godmother was such a girl. She had been sent to live at the rectory for a time, according to some (as noted, I didn't have a chance to ask her). There was a convent on the other side of the church from the rectory, so I don't know why the girls wouldn't have been sent there instead of to the priest's residence, and nobody can explain why, they just insist that's what the arrangement was. Whether my godmother was a victim of abuse or not, something happened that hurt her emotionally very badly, to where she left the Church. My parents asked her to be my godmother because she was pious, devout, and faithful, and they wanted that for me. Please pray for her to heal and return to Holy Mother Church, and also please pray for the victims of that priest and for all victims of clergy abuse.
That must have been traumatic she needs proper counseling.. and I see now why she saw Catholic that way. But a single priest must not damage the whole church.. even where I came from I know priest who was held accountable and in jail.. in summary judge d person not d whole church because everyone is a sinner regardless of religion
It is interesting to note that the 19th century had many groups that tried to get back to what they thought was the “original NT church,” and rejected all other existing denominations. The Reconstructionists were one such Christian group.
Thanks for this Trent. Had some Mormons come over and they wanted to come back tomorrow to explain their case more. Watching this and reading other material so I can be the best Catholic witness possible, and help kindly point them in the right direction and defend the True Faith.
I too became Catholic because the God of the Bible is clearly not the one Joseph Smith lays out. “Hear, O’Israel, the lord your God is lord ALONE.” That being said, they way Mormons behave is often more Christian than most Christians. Good people even though the beliefs are deeply flawed.
Former member but it was the same plates just 116 pages were not translated. The plates were actually Brass. The reason I became Catholic is the fact the Book of Mormon teaches of Mary's sinless nature and in Transubstantiation, then in Doctrine and Covenants 20 Joseph Smith rejects Transubstantiation. My question then is if Mormonism is true, then why the conflict of scriptural teachings? Catholicism never conflicts with the teachings of the Apostles and Prophets. I then studied the keys of the kingdom, each key pointed me to the Catholic Church.
Here is a "very interesting" statement (from a "high up" Catholic leader) that you might find interesting. This is what he said when he came to Utah (and visited with the lds church members) : “Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well-acquainted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at his tongue’s end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me: ‘You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don’t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that’s all there is to it. The Protestants haven’t a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism’s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days.’” (LeGrand Richards, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder [Deseret Book Co., 1950], pp. 3-4.)
Oof, Kwaku M. El is so freaking abrasive that he makes James White look downright cordial by comparison. Coming from an LDS family, I know the vast majority of LDS people are wonderful, but man, I cannot stand listening to Kwaku.
I grew up in a Mormon family. All my childhood I was told how Joseph Smith was a prophet that restored the true Church. Then as an adult I really started studying things like Doctrine & Covenants, and started feeling doubts. One day I watched a PBS documentary where I learned for the first time that blacks had been barred from the priesthood and the LDS prophet at the time, Gordon Hinckley, described the meeting where they made the decision. It caused a crisis of faith because the priesthood is a huge part of Mormonism. Wouldn't God have made such a big detail right from the beginning of a "restoration" of the Church? Then if you start digging into who Joseph Smith was you could really start to see the manipulation he exerted on people. Mormons are generally good people but they have been misled.
Kudos to you for reading all these Mormon books. I can’t have this stuff living in my head. The Mormon faith is so confusing with no logical path. Thank you for trying to make sense of all of this for us.
Former Mormon Missionary here who is currently in the RCIA. You did an excellent job with this video. I had a very harsh exit out of the Mormon church, a lot of familial and social backlash even to this day. All ex-mo's have different stories and experiences coming out of it. But we are all united in being so grateful that we left. Glory to God!
Nothing screams "I have no sound and valid argument" like repeating the same word or phrase over and over with a smug smile on your face. You could tell the Mormon individual on the podcast was full of it. Thanks for calling out all this stuff!
My grandpa was a cradle Catholic and quite the character. When he was getting on in years he used to answer Mormons by saying, "Oh you're here to talk to me about the Angel Moron!" Playing it off as senility.
About the necessity of monotheism, let me tell you one thing I found out. If you want to make a Hindu really angry, call him/her a polytheist. They will tell you that all the gods and goddesses to whom they pay honour are just aspects of the one and only God. There cannot be more than one, because the Lord, Ishwara, Bhagavan, is the Self of the universe. Polytheism always tends to this direction - you can find the same tendency in Greek philosophy.
InspiringPhilosophy's "The Case for Ancient Monotheism Documentary" video also sheds light on evidence for monotheism amongst aborigenal tribes from Australia.
I’m a former atheist who is converting to Catholicism currently. I really like how you described God around the 11 minute mark. When I was an atheist, I ignorantly believed all Christian’s views god as a “genii in the sky” as you put it. Your description of God in this video makes so much more sense in my brain.
Read the book, Russia and Universal Church. Vladimir was a russian orthodox who converted to Catholicism, he was one of the brightest minds of the east.
Practicing latter-day-saint here. All fair critiques. These are things I struggle with almost every day. I appreciate your gentleness and tone of compassion. We need more of this.
As an Orthodox Christian, I enjoy your work. Brothers and sisters, let's pray for reconciliation and reunion. Dark days are coming for Christians and Christ's Body, East and West, need to be united.
@HaleStorm49 You are correct that as false, demon inspired religions go Islam is way more successful - a billion adherents vs 16 million. But it's early days for Mormonism. Maybe in 1500 years we'll be talking about the Mormonite Empire of the 2200s.
The Mormon Great Apostasy is even worse than stated here. In Mormon Theology, the Church must people in the Office of Apostle, who have what they call the "Melchizedek priesthood." This is distinct from the "Aaronic priesthood" which they believe their bishops, elders, etc hold. The Melchizedek priesthood is necessary for ordaining new people; Aaronic priests cannot ordain. So the loss of the Apostles means the loss of the Melchizedek preisthood. What this means for the Mormon Great Apostasy is that as soon as the last apostle dies without anyone in that office, you cannot ordain anyone else, meaning the church dies in one generation. You may note that none of the early church writings mention any sort of distress about the lack of an apostle office leading to the loss of valid ordination. This leads to one of three potential conclusions. Either 1) the sin/heresy of the Church was absolutely irrelevant to the Great Apostasy, because even if they had not sinned the Church would have still lost priesthood authority from the death of the apostles; 2) the Church had gone almost entirely apostate while the Apostles were still alive such that they decided not to ordain any new Apostles (this would seem to contradict the existence of Titus, 1 and 2 Timothy, and the Philadelphian Church in Revelation 3:7-12); or 3) the Apostles were completely unaware that an office of Apostle was necessary to continue the priesthood. To this last point, some Mormon apologists explain the loss of Apostles by saying they were unable to appoint successors due to getting martyred. Setting aside that Mormons believe John the Apostle is still alive so he should be able to ordain, the actions of the Apostles are much more consonant with a vision of spreading throughout the world ordaining bishops to continue succession, than needing to keep Apostle Office alive and sending out missionaries whose death would not cause the death of the entire Church.
Option 3. They were aware because they were Apostles and Christ taught them what was to occur. There are several verses in the NT that reference both the apostasy and the restoration of "all things" which includes things that have never been taught before in the last dispensation before Christ returns.
@@RichardHolmes-ll8ii Paul has no formal teaching in history let alone hieroglyphics or Egyptology so I think I will trust the actual educated people over someone who has made LSD induced videos on TH-cam
@@davidlarssen15HAHAHA, priceless. Paul doesn't need to be an Egyptologist. As Joseph Smith, by revelation, translated the counterfeit (facsimiles) back to the true meaning.
@@RichardHolmes-ll8ii So he needs to have no formal education in a subject to refute those who do this is why Mormonism is false they put aside all logic and irrefutable facts and just have faith because your heart says its true. JEREMIAH 17:9 - The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; Who can understand it?
If you do debate a Mormon please do not debate Kwaku El. (the Mormon from the clip you showed debating the protestants) He is a random party planner who only gets invited to do debates because he has a social media presence and is willing. I would recommend Robert S. Boylan who is a graduate of the Pontifical University of Ireland, and has published a few books on LDS thought. Behold the Mother of My Lord: Towards a Mormon Mariology was probably my favorite. He also used to be Roman Catholic, so he would be equipped to talk about differences in theology with out confusing common terms and words used between the two churches to say different things.
Just this morning was telling my husband about Medjugorje, the Marian apparition...he wanted to know to whom, to Joseph Smith??? No, Hunny. The Virgin Mary did not appear to Joseph Smith.
Time-stamp 0:18, 0:55 - Is Mormon persecution comparable to the persecution of the disciples? 14:35 - Isaiah 43:10, Trent Horn argues that false gods and idols cannot be in view here because many are still being formed to this day. 19:00, 21:00 - Book of Abraham
I was raised Mormon and must admit I'm no longer one but I do believe that the insistence that Mormons aren't Christian is hurting all Christians, we can learn alot from each other
Man, I used to be Mormon and the teach jeans that I learned were very, very corrupted not only that they taught that we could become gods one day, but the thing was I didn’t feel the spirit of God so I love the church and then I found myself into protestant where they talk about faith alone yeah I felt God in that, but it wasn’t the full truth, but the spirit of truth or Holy Spirit Brought me back home to the Catholic Church
My inlaws are Mormon and I've always said that people join the church for the social structure, not the doctrines. The social structure is amazing. Truly nice people with lots of activities going on, and excellent support of families. But the doctrines........ 😬
@@scroogemcduckismyspiritanimalyou can't have one without the other...as most other churches have demonstrated while turning their nose at LDS theology.
@@HaleStorm49 no, there are very very many nice Protestant and Catholic churches too. With lots of families building community, good structure, members helping each other grow in virtue. So you can have the social structure without Mormon doctrine. My point was that Mormons have definitely got that going for them....and that's what's attracting people cause the doctrine is illogical.
@@scroogemcduckismyspiritanimal thinking illogically is like bullying. You can see it everywhere except in the mirror. Jesus taught us that it's not the seed it's the soil.
I’m LDS and I love Trent’s content. He’s become one of my favorite apologists. That said, I have to correct one point. To say that Joseph Smith “died in a gunfight,” is like saying that the Central Park Jogger (a victim of gang rape) was injured in a Central Park sex party. He was being held in tiny frontier jail with his brother and two other associates awaiting trial. They were told by the single jailer that a mob of men were planning to kill them. A friend of Smith managed to smuggle a pistol into the prisoners. A mob of 150-200 armed men, their faces painted black, stormed the jail and attacked. The 4 prisoners tried to fight back with the smuggled pistol and a single walking stick. Ultimately Smith and his brother were killed and the two others shot. Calling that event a “gunfight” deliberately misleads. Im sure that Trent has been informed by unfriendly LDS critics and hasn’t really fact checked. I wouldn’t expect him to. So I offer this information as a friendly correction to good faith critics.
That doesn't matter. We know he fought plenty in Missouri and only got into that situation by wrecking the newspaper that spoke against him and declaring marshall law. In the nicest terms the guy was a complete rogue
If you're going to start addressing Mormon truth claims then you need to be willing to have discussions/ debates with the best scholars we have to offer. I'd suggest inviting Robert Boylan or Blake Ostler on your show.
Thanks! I've read Boylan's blog and he has praised my work on pro-life and baptism. I'm open to maybe debating him in Utah if we can get scheduling figured out.
@@TheCounselofTrent Jacob Hansen also will do debates, he has debated the Trinity and source of authority before. His TH-cam channel is called Thoughtful Faith
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Jesus Christ (or a Mormon) and love this channel and am grateful for the respect you show despite our obvious disagreements. The only thing I would mention is that the King Follet sermon is not considered canon or scripture and that there is some disagreement on wheather or not God was once a man within the members of the church. I, for one, am in the camp that he has always been God like you do. Once again, love your channel and will continue to watch!
I don't think Trent understands enough about LDS theology to do a good enough job of deconstructing their beliefs. Watching someone obliterate a strawman is pretty unimpressive. Also, anybody got a map of the Garden of Eden? No? Why is that ok again? The Book of Abraham isn't the keystone of lds faith but I understand wanting to use it to discredit Joseph smith as a prophet. However, I think it's a fairly weak argument due to many factors regarding original documents, aprocryphal validations, and ancient literary tropes. It's just not the gotcha people make it out to be.
One of the odd things about Mormonism is that the Book of Mormon has some verses with trinitarian/monotheistic language. 2 Nephi 31:21 - "...And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen." Mormon 7:7 - "...unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end." Alma 11:26-29 - "And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No."
I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We have scholars that give great answers to all these issues which Trent raises. I appreciate his honesty and sincerity. I once left my faith once after learning about these issues. My favorite scripture though is proverbs 3:5 which says to trust in the Lord with all thine art and lean not on thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him and he shall direct thy paths.” I’ve done that and I’ve overcome the craftiness of men and answered all my questions and issues. Nevertheless I get why people can’t get over these issues and I still love y’all. I enjoy the channel and find all these discussions interesting.
“Great answers”? Hmmm, I’m gonna disagree with you there, as an ex-Mormon who went through the process of hoping lds apologists could provide answers. Their answers are laughable. Sorry, they are shooting blanks, friend.
Mormon here, and I think this is the most thorough and well-intentioned explanation of my faith (and of the critics to it) I have seen from someone of a different faith. There were a few points that made me wonder how serious you were about your critique (like Joseph Smith being all in on it for the women and power, and what seemed like a skepticism that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is indeed a "Church"). But overall, you let the facts stand for themselves rather than ascribing a malicious motive to my church like many others do. In addition, I've watched many different Mormon apologists over the past 3 years and the one you featured in the James White debate is the one with whom I've had the most disagreements. He traps himself into defending some viewpoints that I would say are not consistent with Mormon doctrine, and I feel like he comes at a theological debate like a politician rather than a philosopher. He's fun to listen to at times and well-intentioned, but I don't think he's a good one to put as a standard of Mormon thought.
Being a member of the Church myself, there were several inaccuracies in this video that will give viewers, particularly non-members, false notions and ideas of what we actually believe. And much of what he shared and disagreed with he did so in ignorance. Whether he omitted and lied intentionally or not, I'm not sure, but it doesn't matter. The fact remains, viewers will get false ideas of the Church. For me, I never listen to apologetics. The whole point of them is to prove your point right and the other wrong. I have seen them before and that's why I don't listen or watch them. The Spirit has never been there for me.
@@TheForgottenMan270 I recently rewatched this video and I did pick up on a few other things that I didn't pay attention to before. There's no doubt that people will get false ideas of what we actually believe from this video, but I still say Trent is the least malicious and most well-intentioned apologist out there. From his tone and content, I am confident it comes from ignorance and not malice. To be honest, I don't listen to apologists to feel the spirit (for that I'd much rather listen to the Prophet and the Apostles). I do it to get a sense of why other people believe a certain doctrine, policy, or historical matter is the way it is so I can better adapt my own responses to concerns that people may have about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I've received my own answers on why things are the way the are (though I continue to seek revelation in case there is something more I'm missing), but my answers aren't exigent to everyone, especially if they aren't looking or for them.
I would really enjoy it if you would do some more shows on this topic. I have studied Mormonism quite a bit, but I have great difficulty in showing the errors.
At 6:26, I would totally dispute that Lehi's family crossed the Atlantic Ocean. His family fist went down to Arabia and crossed it, built a ship, and came over, and according to the Book of Mormon, landed on the seashore that bordered the West Sea. At 8:31 Trent makes mention that the Book of Abraham mentions "the gods" created the world as opposed to "God created the world" just for clarification the word "God" in Genesis chapter 1 is elohim, when you have the name "el" you have the singular masculine "God" when you have "eloh" you have the singular feminine word for god or goddess, elohim is the plural form of both of these words. Most scholars agree the Old Testament was written in three or four phases, the Elohist, those who worshipped the true Elohim as opposed to false pantheon such as Zeus and the Olympian gods, the priestly phase basically centered worship around the Tabernacle, the yahist who went a step further and centralized worship around one key God and Deuteronomist who centered yahwaist worship exclusively in Jerusalem To make it clear, Abraham was a elohist, that's why he paid tithes to Melchizedek priest of the mist high God (most high meaning others existed under the most high) Elijah was a Yawist literally having "Jehovah is God" in his name, but he built and performed burnt offerings outside of Jerusalem Josiah was a Deuternomist meaning he forced the worship of Jehovah into one location Jerusalem. Jesus honored the traditions of all four of those but also was critical of some aspects of each. In demonstrating his own Divinity he mostly appealed to elohist doctine
Tell me, without any doctrine from the LDS church, how does God save those that never heard about the gospel but are still under His spoken law that no one will enter the kingdom of God without baptism?
@@spideyN8R Wrong. They do not believe Jesus was God in the flesh but was a preexisting spirit child of God the Father and Heavenly Mother. In fact, they believe that Jesus and Satan are both spirit children of God and are brothers. These beliefs are not consistent with believing that Christ is God. Mormonism simply isn't Christianity. It's something else.
A Protestant once said his biggest reason for not being a Mormon is that "Mormon" is not in the bible..to which he was told neither is Protestant..to which he said "but not everything has to be in the bible"😒
11:30 Wait, God doesn’t think!? Huh? You just blew my mind. If God doesn’t think or react, then God would have no agency; if there is no agency, there is no good or evil. So is God outside of good and evil? Is He amoral? Then why is mankind subject to good and evil and given agency? Why would that matter to Him? And why do we refer to an act of being as a gender? How does an act of being, that has no passions, love? And if God is just a Mystery and so far beyond our comprehension why would God command us to be like Him? How can you begin to be like something you cannot comprehend? All my questions here are very sincere. I have been trying to understand the concept of the trinity for over forty years but have never found an explanation that makes sense to me, and I truly do want to understand it, so if anyone thinks they can enlighten me on the trinity or any of the above questions, please please share it with me.
40 years of deception can't be explained away to one with an obviously closed mind : being clueless about the Trinity for 40 years but saying they tried to understand it???? you would just waste everyone's time to try and clarify it to you!
So the fact that you can “become like god” didn’t raise a hug red flag? Considering that was the first lie told to humans by none other than the adversary?
"I say, the Word of God became a man, so that you might learn from a man how to become a god." - Clement of Alexandria "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Psalms...also Jesus.
What the devil said was that Eve would be "like God," not that she would be a god. What he meant was that she, who until then in her innocence knew only good, would now know both good and evil the way God does. (Even though evil is a privation and can't properly be said to be known, nevertheless God knows it as a privation just as we do. The difference is that God knew it from all eternity, whereas we had to learn it through sinning.) And that is exactly what happened. The devil did not lie. What he lied about was that she would not die, and it was her belief of that lie and concomitant unbelief in God's promise that she would die that brought about her and Adam's downfall.
@@jackdaw6359 And how do you think Mormons mean it? I'm LDS...I've seen other LDS make weird claims about becoming capital "G" Gods and running a bunch of planets and whatnot...but that's certainly not what any official doctrine or scripture states at all. I promise you that THAT specific conception of theosis is nothing but pure, unauthoritative speculation.
I’m studying Catholicism, Mormonism and Hinduism bc those are the religions of my family. It does seem Catholicism is the best mainstream Christian religion to me.
I am active in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I love the Lord and I fight for the rights of people to “worship how, where, and what they may”. This is core to our beliefs. The LDS church is one of the strongest and most outspoken fighters for religious liberty. Although we may have disagreements with other faiths, we will fight alongside you for your freedoms. We believe that the Constitution was divinely inspired. Freedom is crucial for God’s plan. I served my mission in Argentina and I was blessed to meet many wonderful Catholics. Such beautiful people! My heart was swoll with joy when I heard that Shia Lebouf had joined the Catholic faith. I am also a huge supporter of James Caviezel. My favorite movie is The Count if Monte Cristo and I recently watched Sound of Freedom. I am encouraging everyone I know to watch it.
Wow i didnt know the post-gold plates stuff. I thought they were Christians plus gold plates story. The "God was one of us" bit turns them into something else entirely. No unmoved mover.
🗺️ A Geography Absent •None of the geographic settings uniquely mentioned in Joseph Smith’s epic work have not been identified, located, nor corroborated. 🤷♀️ •Examples given: Valley of Alma (Mosiah 24:20, Land of Helam (Mosiah 23:3), Ciy of Amnonihah (Almah 8:6), Village of Ani-Anti (Alma 21:11), Land of Amulon (Moshiah 23:31), Mount Anipas (Alma 47:7) , Land of Antum (Mormon 1:3), City of Boaz (Moron 4:20), Hill of Comnor (Ether 14:28), Valley of Corihor (Ether 14:27), City of Cumeni (Alma 56:13), Land of Cumorah (Mormon 6:2), Hill of Ephraim (Ether 7:9), City of Gadiani (3 Nephi 9:8) , City of Gadiomnah (3 Nephi 9:8) , City of Gid (Alma 51:26) , City of Gideon (Alma 6:7) , City of Gilgal (Nephi 9:6) , City of Gimgimno (3 Nephi 9:6) , City of Helam (Mosiah 23:20) , Wilderness of Hermounts (Alma 2:37) , Plains of Heshlon (Ether 13:28) , Sea of Irreantum (1 Nephi 17:5) *, City of Jashon (Mormon 2:16) , Land of Jershon (Alma 27:22) , City of Jordan (Mormon 5:3) , City of Josh (3 Nephi 9:10) , Land of Joshua (Mormon 2:6) , City of Laman (3 Nephi 9:10) , River Laman ((1Nephi 2:6) *, City of Manti (Alma 56:13) , Land of Middoni (Alma 20:2) , Land of Midian (Alma 14:5) , Land of Minon (Alma 2:24) , Land of Moriancumer (Ether 2:13) , City of Morianton (Alma 5:25) , Area of Moriantum (Moroni 9:9) , Land of Moron (Ether 7:5) , City of Moroni (Alma 50:13) , City of Moroni (3 Nephi 8:10) , City of Mulek (Alma 51:25) , Nahom (1 Nephi 16:34) *, City of Nehor (Ether 7:9) , City of Nephihah (Alma 50:14) , Plains of Nephiha (Alma 62:18) , Valley of Nimrod (Ether2:1) , City of Noah (Alma 49:12) , Place of Ogath (Ether 15:19) , City of Omner (Alma 51:26) , Place of Onihah (3 Nephi 9:7) , City of Onihah (3 Nephi 9:7) , Hill Ramah (Ether 15:11) , Hill Riplah (Alma 43:31) , Water of Ripliancum (Ether 15:8) , Waters of Sebus (Alma 17:26) , City of Shem (Mormon 2:20) , City of Silom (Mossiah 7:7) , Hill Shim (Mormon 1:3) , City of Shimnilom (Alma 23:8) , Valley of Shurr (Ether 14:8), Land of Sidom (Alma 15:1), River Sidon (Alma 2:15), Land of Sinim (1 Nephi 2:12; 14:28) *, Land of Siron (Alma 39:3) , City of Teancum (Mormon 4:3) , City of Zarahemla (Alma 2:26); City Zeezrom (Alma56:13) , and Mount Zerin (Alma 54:23). 🤷♂️ 🗺️ ⛰️ 🏜️ ⛏️ ⁉️
Trent, can you please debate (or do a response video to) the TH-camr / Streamer “Destiny” about abortion? His main argument is that only consciousness should be protected, but I’ve not seen any competent pro lifers debate him
Lila rose is competent, so is Kristen. I haven't watched it, but I've heard they just had one. Y'all act like the question is difficult. Anyone can take care of it easily. If consciousness is all that matters, in other words being aware of your surroundings/who you are, then we better start killing those who sleep, those in a coma, those unconscious, those under anesthesia should be fair game etc. That's why the line can't be drawn there. Obviously, the issue here isn't whether someone is conscience or not. The issue is that it's murder (the unjust killing of a human being)
@@angelalemos9811 Watch the debate. It does not make Lila or Kristen look competent. Lila Rose in particular kept speaking over Destiny and Kristen and refused to answer questions put to her. Destiny tied them both up with nots. I agree with you about consciousness, but I can see Destiny arguing that the difference between people in the situations you mentioned is that they are all humans with fully-formed brains who are unconscious, whereas an embryonic unborn child does not have a brain capable of consciousness. Your "the issue isn't whether someone is conscious or not" wouldn't defeat his argument because according to him, an embryo is not a 'someone' yet.
Yeah, it has always been clear to me that Mormons believe that God is just some guy who got magic powers, and we ourselves can someday become our own god of our own planet somewhere, and "real God" is just the god of Earth. As much as I love Brandon Sanderson, this drives me nuts while reading his books. He constantly has "gods" that are basically just people. It constantly forces me into mental gymnastics to try to make it make sense. I usually fall back on assuming that "actual God" is just never mentioned, and he's the one who created all the shards, etc.
Trent, also the fact that Book of Mormon clams to have been written down on Golden Plates. And in the Book of Mormon, people were writing on them, like the Brass Plates Even if I was very charitable and said it was “Golden Colored Metal Sheets”. There is no evidence that Ancient Americans wrote on metal plates like books. That’s very damming to the Book of Mormon and the LDS religion, because the book and Joseph Smith is the core of it. It’d be like if us Christians said that the Bible, instead of being originally written on papyri, it was originally written on glass.
_"There is no evidence that Ancient Americans wrote on metal plates like books."_ Because American Archeology isn't fair along and only 1% of 1% has been excavated. More and more has been coming out that has supported everything in the Book of Mormon so it is only a matter of time before evidence comes out.
@@dylanwilliams2202 like what? Give me something from a non biased source. Lol You don’t have evidence of your own writing system lol. That’s extremely problematic And 1%? Could I get see something to substantiate that? Or did u make that up? If we have ancient Aztec, Mayan, Inca history(not perfect). They didn’t write on metal sheets as books. Even the Olemecs, which we don’t have anything on, didn’t do The Book of Mormon has made up cities and what’s even worse Joseph Smith took these ideas from other people. There’s nothing divine about any of this😭 No archeologists wether Christian, Jewish or Atheist, take the LDS church seriously. Even Mormon Archeologists.
Mormonism has the exact same fault line that Islam has at it’s core…. the prophet and his “revelation” when exposed to the sources and dialogue of the faiths that came before show it to be incorrect.
I wouldn't go as far as considering them as even Protestants but as a separate creature altogether, mimicking hints of Christian beliefs like a camouflage but ultimately different.
Mormons arent even protestants. Mormons deny the Trinity - the most important and pivotal belief of the Christian faith as it centers around who God is in essence. Since they deny the Blessed Trinity, a belief found in ancient Christianity amidst some heresies brewing, they can never have valid baptisms. Mormons are Christian and I do not say this gleefully. It's a tragedy.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 01:25 🕊️ Joseph Smith's risks and rewards: Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, took risks and gained rewards, including multiple spiritual wives and leadership power. This distinguishes his motivations from the apostles' sincerity in early Christianity. 08:48 💡 Mormon henotheism and divine progression: Mormonism's belief in multiple gods and the potential for humans to become gods contrasts with traditional monotheism. Mormons believe in a progression from human to exalted godhood, unlike classical theism. 16:46 🗺️ Lack of historical evidence in Book of Mormon: Unlike the Bible, the Book of Mormon lacks geographical and archaeological evidence. The varying interpretations of where events took place challenge its historical authenticity. 19:10 📜 Book of Abraham controversy: The Book of Abraham's translation by Joseph Smith has been debunked by Egyptologists. The papyrus he translated doesn't align with his claims, weakening the credibility of the Book of Mormon. 22:18 🕊️ Apostasy and church continuity: Mormons believe in a great apostasy that necessitated a 19th-century restoration, while Catholics contend that Christ's Church endured through history without a complete apostasy. This distinction influences their teachings.
I grew up in northwest Wyoming. Lots of mormons. I live in northeast Nebraska now. When mormonism gets brought up, I tell them to watch the South Park episode that covers mormon. It is easier to say that than go down the rabbit hole of answering questions that inevitably arise.
If Christ allowed his Church to teach error for 1700 years, what does that say about his faithfulness and reliability? How could we possibly trust “new” revelation that contradicts previous revelation? Without a divinely-appointed and protected guardian of the deposit of faith from the very moment of the founding of his Church, anything goes…as we see in the chaos of Sola Scriptura.
@ericwolford5685I would disagree as Joseph Smith was a founder of something new or theoretically the restorer of something 1700 years old that was lost although we have zero evidence of it being lost. So if his character screams con man: It would undermine his mission. Same with St Peter and St Paul etc. It was pertinent that the foundation of Christianity be holy and far from being seen as a con. But if you can believe God abandoned humanity to a folly of only false doctrines and yet produce our saints, you can believe anything. My response to Mormonism is this: God gave me a burning in the bosom, telling me the mass is true and the Catholic church is true. This means nothing in debates. History is why I chose to be Catholic. The eternal God of Israel was true and always had people and communicated clearly with them. When Our Lord fulfilled all the prophecies there was nothing else to be waiting for. No prophecy would confirm Joseph Smith or Mohammed or anyone else. With zero prophecies to confirm them and with no problems one sending Smith, but an apparent angel of heaven. All Christians rightfully rejected it as something new. And not a restoration because a brief inquiry in history doesn't show LDS beliefs anywhere.
@ericwolford5685 Yeah, the very Israel that worshipped the uncreated God who was eternal. Who had no beginning. Who they never ever claimed to have been a man. To you guys really still believe God was a man or are you free to reject such nonsense? Because we worship The Great I AM. The God who is to be worshipped by every other creature in the universe.
The Great Apostasy is more nuanced and kinder to Catholics than what you described. Latter-Day Saints do not believe there has ever been an absolute loss of people who strived to do everything in their power to maintain Christ’s power. Clearly there has been extreme devotion to Christianity throughout history ever since Jesus came to Earth. The only parts of the Great Apostasy that Latter Day Saints believe were absolute were the break in apostolic succession due to lack of transference of Priesthood keys by laying on of hands and a lack of continuing revelation. Latter-Day Saints believe priesthood authority must be transferred by laying on of hands as a saving ordinance similar to baptism, endowment, and temple sealing. Although there may be historical evidence of apostles attempting to delegate responsibilities in a church hierarchy, there is not evidence that priesthood keys received from Christ by imposition of hands, or laying on of hands, were transferred by laying on of hands to successors before the original apostles were killed. Ultimately the validity of this belief stems back to whether or not Joseph Smith was telling the truth. The best way to determine that is to read the Book of Mormon. Most naysayers don’t put in the time. Just like there is no “proof” of God’s existence, there is no “proof” that the Book of Mormon is true. If you understood the Book of Mormon, you would admit that it is not logically disprovable. Academically, there is plenty of literary evidence that the Book of Mormon is true. There is very little archaeological evidence, but that is the inherent lacking nature of American archaeology. If one wants to have good evidence, what better evidence than from God? Discerning answers from the Holy Ghost is by definition subjective, but all human knowledge is by definition subjective. All that said, having profound spiritual experiences is possible. My knowledge is by definition imperfect, but I know the Book of Mormon is true.
Similar to all critics of our church, Trent begins with a fundamental false premises or a lies. For example "Mormons reject the existence of God." Trent starts his argument with a significant falsehood, expecting us to accept his flawed logic built on this untruth. He then attempts to compare his understanding of God as the model (classical theism), suggesting that because our Church doesn't align with it, our understanding is deemed false. He also gets lost in his own logic and I also need an asprin . It's accurate that our Church does not adhere to the teachings that emerged from the many Nicene meetings held 300 years after the death of the Apostles, particularly concerning the identity of God. Our belief in the Godhead is rooted in scriptures such as "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…" I can provide numerous other scriptures supporting our doctrine. Trinitarianism, however, distances us from our identity and purpose with the Father and His son Jesus Christ, hindering our understanding of how our Father in Heaven communicates with us through the Holy Ghost, which we refer to as personal revelations. His criticism of The Book Of Mormon should be embarrassing given the flawed nature of his reasoning. Requesting a map is comparable to weak reasoning, resembling an atheist demanding to see God before believing in God. Trent appears to lack an understanding of the concept of "faith": "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen... (Hebrews)” Also do we have a map of Adam and Eve to the Flood of Noah. I guess he does not believe in these parts of the Old Testament? We need a map to believe? It's true that within the Church, opinions about the actual location of the Book of Mormon in the Americas may vary. However, the Church has never officially claimed a specific location in the Americas. BUT, all we ask is for you to read The Book of Mormon on your own and ask God to know if it's truthful. You don't need a map; you can know for yourself, by yourself. The Book of Mormon doesn't diminish the Bible; it enhances it! ENJOY BTW, less than 1% of the ancient ruins in the Americas have been unearthed.
Hey Trent. How would counter a point saying, “well we may know where Jerusalem is, but no one agrees as to where the garden of Eden was either.”? Also, I would like to hear you debate a Mormon or continue these in depth explanations. I have a few Mormon friends, some who want to engage with me in discussion and others who don’t. Either way, I’ve found it very hard to understand the religion, and this video helped a lot. I feel like more of this would be very helpful
@@twoody9760 because the argument would be that, and I can’t specifically remember, but a lot of the places spoken about in the stories of the Book of Mormon would have also not had maps at the time, idk though, that’s why I’m asking. Like if you think about historically the native Americans weren’t literate and did not use physical maps like we do, so that would be their argument as well
The Garden of Eden was a garden at the beginning of time occupied by two people. The Nephites and Lamanites were supposedly continent spanning civilizations that existed for 1000 years until around 400AD. Not really the same thing. The absence of any archeological evidence for the Nephite cities is, shall we say, highly conspicuous.
_"It’s sad to be born into a cult..."_ Wait. You literally worship ritual human sacrifice. And you also believe, without any evidence, that God walked around town for thirty years and then died and became a zombie and then the graves opened and the corpses and skeletons rose out and "appeared to many" and all of that happened without any of the locals noticing.
Sadly true. When I was a Mormon, everything I knew about Catholicism came from very poorly catechized ex- Catholics. I didn't realize that at the time of course, but looking back...
Well, when Catholics have been poorly catechism since the 70s and we outnumber Mormons by 10 to 1, the odds are in their favor. Excellent apologetics like this will change that though :)
@@EvilXtianity Cult members rarely realize they're in a cult. For Mormons, perhaps they realize it when they finally start doing Temple ceremonies, and it turns out it's all just copy pasted from Freemasonry. (No coincidence that Joseph Smith joined the Freemasons, though he stoked the ire of fellow Freemasons).
Read Acts 3:19-21 where Peter prophesied that the heavens would receive Christ until the "times of the restitution of ALL things!!!" Read Psalms 82:6 "Ye are gods and ALL of you are the CHILDREN of the Most High."!!! Continued...
I was LDS for years. Became LDS after college, married a beautiful cradle LDS lady I met in a singles ward, served in the Bishopric, on the Stake High Council, and then started reading LDS history. Big mistake for my LDS faith!
It was a long journey, fraught with challenges to our married life, but God got hold of my life and my wife's heart . . . we entered Christianity in a Baptist Church, researched Church history and became Orthodox and are now "back home" practicing Catholics. Praise God!
Glory to God❤️☦️ I’m Orthodox and may God bless u
Wow. That’s a journey.
What a journey. Glad you’re here!!
Incredible journey and testimony.
Wow! God is so good.
My wife is ex Mormon, coming from a Mormon family. Her family always treated me so kindly, way better than my own southern baptist family. Even after I converted to catholicism they still treat me well, and were more supportive of my conversion than my evangelical parents.
My experience lines up with that as well. The LDS family that I have are still incredibly friendly to me even after my conversion. -Kyle
So sorry for that. I have no idea why Protestants are such arrogant and unloving people. And I'm Protestant.
My LDS grandparents came to my Catholic baptism, first communion, & confirmation. The LDS side of my family has shown me incredible love & kindness.
Mormons tend to be very good people or very bad people with few in between.
Dennis Prager once said at a forum that the true test of any religion is how its people behave. I like Rory Sutherland's take "It aint crazy if it works"
As a former Mormon who read/ found his way home to the Catholic Church, I say very well done.
So you decided worshiping ritual human sacrifice was the way to go.
LOL
@@EvilXtianityyawn ad infinitum.
@@EvilXtianitythat’s a weird way of describing what Christ commands us to do.
@@stevenlester985
_"...that’s a weird way of describing what Christ commands us to do."_
Are you denying that the literal worship of ritual human sacrifice is the core tent of Christianity? You know, that cross thing and John 3:16...
Paul created Christianity in 48 AD and this is how he put it:
Romans 8:32
"He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all."
1 Corinthians 5:7
"Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."
Romans 3:25
"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement."
Romans 5:8
"God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us."
Hebrews 10:10
"We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ."
@@stevenlester985
_"...that’s a weird way of describing what Christ commands us to do."_
Should we expect God to know what the Ten Commandments are?
Which was Jesus's sixth commandment?
(Notice that Jesus lists only the secular commandments that make no mention of God):
1. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself:
If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. (Matthew 19:17-19)
2. Honor thy father and mother:
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honor thy father and mother. (Mark 10:19)
3. There was no sixth. Jesus listed only five commandments:
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor thy father and thy mother. (Luke 18:20)
Belief in the Catholic faith is not based on a single piece of evidence, such as the sincerity of the apostles, but on the totality of all the evidence. And it's overwhelming.
It all is j st one thing though.
The resurrection.
Issue is even if I grant you that Judaism is truth because we have equaled that miracle even today. It doesnt equal Sinai so you cant alter the covenant.
That and Jesus is in hell
@@walleras You have equaled that miracle? Please elaborate on what you mean by that.
I totally agree...................with the first part of your sentence.
The plural of anecdote is not fact. Many pieces of lousy evidence don’t add up to a convincing argument.
@@KestyJoe Do some research and then come back. Until then, I can't waste my time on you.
I too was a devout mormon. (6 generations). Found out that Joseph Smith wasn’t true. Left at 33 yrs old. Joined a baptist church and nondenominational for 20 plus yrs. Found the church fathers thru a Catholic who just invited me to look them up! I’ve studied for 6 yrs. Now just trying to get in the Catholic Church! 😀 not an easy task.😜🙏🏻 but trusting God through it. Please pray for me.🙏🏻❤️
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is God's and Jesus Christ one and only true church here on earth. We know and teach the Bible and gospel better than any other denomination. To put it bluntly, the gospel every other Christian denomination (including the Catholic Church) teaches is a watered down version of what God's and Jesus Christ true gospel really is. The Catholics corrupted the gospel. Rejoin God and Jesus Christ in their Kingdom and rejoin their true church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and learn all that they have to offer. Learn of their glory and mercy, learn of the plan they have of you
@@dylanwilliams2202We know all about your different worlds of heaven. Everyone's already learned the deets on your religion.
@@MeanBeanComedy _"We know all about your different worlds of heaven."_ LOL You say you know the "deets" of my religion but get them wrong. They aren't worlds but degrees in the same place. The Early Church Fathers even mentions them and gives details, would you like those quotes?
@dylanwilliams2202
You are being smug in your refutation over a technicality. The person you are responding to is correct in the ways that matter, and you aren't even correct. The celestial kingdom has degrees within it, but the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms are both described as completely different realms/places. At best, the issue of whether or not they are on different worlds would be unsettled and the idea that they are would be perfectly compatible with LDS theology.
I'll bite. What quotes are you referencing?
@@bearistotle2820 The very early Church Father, Papias understood that the Saviour's three degrees of 'fruitfulness' (Matthew 13:8, Matthew 13:23) corresponded to the Pauline three 'heavens' or 'glories' (1 Corinthians 15:41). According to him (as recorded in the first century account of Polycarp), the 'Elders' agreed that “Those who are deemed worthy of an abode in Heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendor of the City. For everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see him. But that there is this *distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixtyfold, and that of those who produce thirtyfold; for the first will be taken up into Heaven; the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the City; and that on this account the Lord said, “In my house are many mansions”' for all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling place, even as his word says, that a share is given to all by the Father, according as each is or shall be worthy.”* That was also quoted by Irenaeus in his book.
Origen, in the early third century, revealed that the early Church interpreted this passage in essentially the same way “Our understanding of the passage indeed is, that the Apostle, *wishing to describe the great difference among those who rise again in glory,* i.e., of the saints, borrowed a comparison from the heavenly bodies, saying, "One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, another the glory of the stars” (Origen, De Principiis 2, Chapter 10 paragraph 2)
Clement of Alexandria also expressed belief in the three degrees, and echoed the Lord's revelation to Joseph Smith that those in the highest degree "are gods, even the sons of God." From Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6 chapter 14 titled “degrees of heaven”, “Conformably, therefore, there are various abodes, according to the worth of those who have believed . . . . *These chosen abodes, which are three, are indicated by the numbers in the Gospel--the thirty, the sixty, the hundred.* And the perfect inheritance belongs to those who attain to "a perfect man," according to the image of the Lord . . . . To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord Himself taught.”
Clement also preached that the three gradations of glory are procured by virtue of three types of actions: [Clement of Alexandria] reckons three kinds of actions, the first of which is . . . right or perfect action, which is characteristic of the perfect man and Gnostic alone, and raises him to the height of glory. The second is the class of . . . medium, or intermediate actions, which are done by less perfect believers, and procure a lower grade of glory. In the third place he reckons sinful actions, which are done by those who fall away from salvation.
Just like the Early Church Fathers In the vision of the kingdoms of glory to Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon (Doctrine and Covenants section 76), the Lord revealed that 1 Corinthians 15:40-41 is not just a comparison of earthly bodies with heavenly, but also a reference to the fact that there are three different major levels of glory to which a body can be resurrected:
“And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one. And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one. And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differeth from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world.” (D&C 76:96-98)
I was a Mormon for 18 years now I’m a Orthodox Christian. I respect my Catholic brothers and sisters
Thank you, brother and may God bless you.
@@bman5257 ❤️
Id say I feel closer to Catholicism or orthodoxy than any other form of Christianity
@@jhoughjr1 yes. I use to be a Protestant too. The reformation opened up to door these restorationist groups like the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses
Love to all our Orthodox brothers and sisters ❤
God bless 🙏🏼
Another former Mormon that became Catholic. Although Orthodox rather than Roman. I enjoy most of your stuff. Funny the way time changes things for us. If you were to say 10 years ago I’d be offering up prayers to Mary and the Saints I’d say you were crazy. My soul is finally at peace now. Love my Roman brothers!
What do you mean ?
Either you are part of the holy, saint, unique and universal Catholic church in one of its 24 rites (Roman(or Latin), and the 23 eastern rites (Maronite, Gueze, Greek-Catholique, Melkite, Syro-Malabar, ....) which indeed have an Orthodox faith.
Or you are part of the shismatic church that call itself orthodox and you are thus not part of the Catholic Church.
Well the official name of the church is “The Orthodox Catholic Church” and we say the Creed every week expressing the belief in one Catholic Church and talk to every Orthodox priest and they will say we are Catholic but what do I know?
@@Circle_Breaker73 Are you on communion with Rome ?
@@maten146 neither are universal in any real sense.
Exclusion of communities who believe the exact same thing in regards to the gospel of Jesus Christ can not, by definition, be part of a "universal" church.
Simply calling yourself that or calling yourself orthodox doesn't do the trick, or would you believe that the mormons are the "saints of the latter days"?
Please keep these episodes coming! For some reason finding a lot more Mormons than I realized in my life
I was a Latter-day Saint for 3 years, now I make videos exploring the Catholic faith - This is great!!
YOOOO!
I was LDS as well, went on a mission and everything, and am now Catholic.
@@bearistotle2820 No way!? Where did you serve?
@@bearistotle2820you're still alive!
Nice to see you again my friend haha
I meant to ask you years ago if your name had anything to do with a certain tall man who now lives in Idaho.
@@pentesaint Knoxville, TN!
@RL-te6cy Oh yeah, hi! Unfortunately I know nothing of tall men in Idaho lol
I'm LDS but I found this video very interesting and informative. You earned a sub.
Thanks for hearing him out. Even if you disagree, I think it is always important to hear out objections. God bless.
Love the line from the s t.the voyage home. Spock is mind melting with Gracie the blue whale is her name in the tank. Kirk to the whale specialist: " He did too much L.D.S in the sixtys. ". Thats what Roseanne Barr says too
@@ClobinWilliams So true. God bless you too.
You may want to find a church with the bible on the pulpit and the true biblical God.
What's interesting about the LDS Church is that they claim they're the "restored" Church of the Apostolic Age. Yet, when you read the Apostolic Fathers (Ignatius mainly) and the Didache, we can see that the Church of the Apostolic Age has really no theological similarities. I recommend to every Mormon to read the Didache.
I'm just really curious how they explain their denial of pentecost
Same, what I was taught about Catholicism and the early years of Christianity during my Mormon childhood is completely unrelated to reality. When I started studying actual history my Mormon “testimony” got knee-capped.
What about the "12" apostles (?) If Christ church continued (after the death of the apostles) why weren't the apostles replaced? (I think the councils of nicea and others) sort of made the catholic church more of a "state" religion (with pieces of truth, but also to keep it under control, shroud it in mysticism and nebualties) also taking away "core" doctrines (which was proven) like the concept of our "Pre-mortal" lives (meaning we lived with God and Jesus) before our births and we just weren't "snapped into existence". As per the "12" have you ever seen the Chosen series? (really good, I highly recommend it).
Thanks for the video. I was born and raised LDS. I also served a mission and taught about the Book of Mormon for two years. I'm 35 now and, for a variety of reasons that would be too long to list here, recently came to the conclusion that the book isn't what I thought it was/what it claims to be.
That conclusion has left me reeling because of it's implications, so I've been engaged in listening to a lot of apologetics recently while I try and piece my faith back together. Your channel has been refreshing and I appreciate you taking time to touch on this. Consider this a request for you to do more videos on the subject.
thanks for your testimony!
Biggens - As an active LDS member, I tell people that if their church had a better value proposition I would leave tomorrow. it's essentially a trade. I am promised exaltation, eternal marriage, temple worship, covenant blessings, spiritual inspiration, and physical protection...which I believe I have received in spades. What do I get if I trade that in to become Catholic, or join an online church like Apologia - or become agnostic/atheist? Where is the best long-term ROI for myself and the kids...do you have kids?
Were you able to trade up for something better? I'd be interested in a similar trade.
@MBiggens, I was a devout Latter-Day Saint my entire life. And when I say devout, I mean I was all in. Then I learned about Sacred Tradition and the Church fathers. I eventually came to the conclusion that either Christ's church was lost and had to be restored, or it had always been on earth just as he promised (Ephesians 5:29-30; Matthew 16:18; John 14:16, 18). It was at this point that I realized I had to address my concerns regarding the JST. In short, I found the Bible to be the most/only reliable book of scripture. Eventually after much studying and prayer, I was baptized into the Catholic church 2 months ago, at age 36. I wish you the best in your journey and I hope you will soon join us!
@@HaleStorm49 Shouldn't you believe true things rather than comfortable things?
@@rhamsesmartinez5007 Thanks for sharing! I've actually been attending mass for the past couple of months and plan to start RCIA in around September. My wife went through a similar process and has recently been baptized at a non-denominational evangelical church. It puts us in a strange situation, but I trust that God will do His own work in us and guide us to where we're supposed to be as long as we seek sincerely. Best wishes to you moving forward as well!
Man, I'm so stoked for this video. I used to be mormon and I'm reading about Catholicism. I've been waiting for Trent to do a video about this. I'm going to save it for tomorrow after work as a reward for making it through another shift. Lol. Love your videos.
If you'd like a place to ask questions about Catholicism, I highly recommend checking out crossthetiber.org
There's a lot of good folks there that are happy to answer questions and point you to great resources. -Kyle
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is God's and Jesus Christ one and only true church here on earth. We know and teach the Bible and gospel better than any other denomination. To put it bluntly, the gospel every other Christian denomination (including the Catholic Church) teaches is a watered down version of what God's and Jesus Christ true gospel really is. The Catholics corrupted the gospel. Rejoin God and Jesus Christ in their Kingdom and rejoin their true church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and learn all that they have to offer. Learn of their glory and mercy, learn of the plan they have of you
@@dylanwilliams2202you're not a good listener
@@waseemhermiz7565 Oh no I am, I just don't care about garbage takes that can easily be refuted.
@@dylanwilliams2202your “prophet”literally pulled “revelations” out of his ass left right and center for his own convenience lol. Why would I follow such a phony religion?
EXCELLENT explanation Trent. Thank you for this fantastic material to educate all - not only Catholics.
Mitt Romney just disinvited Trent from his next BLM fundraiser.
Great video! I also suggest you to do more on Seventh-day adventism, it would be great!
I’ll pass that suggestion along! -Kyle
Look up jimmy akin , he did mormonism , seventh day adventists etc etc
@@TheCounselofTrent Cool
@@noircc He did Ellen White, not SDA
The Egyptologist info on the above video needs to be updated. As Paul Gregersen demonstrates that Joseph Smith was right, the Egyptologists were wrong.
Knew some lovely Mormon folks in college. Friendly, well dressed, and pretty fun to hang out with. Eventually I did find the Catholic center so slowly stopped seeing them, but they weren’t too disappointed about it.
Even went with them to their temple down in Houston, which was…. Different for me. One of the guys told me he actually “stood in” for his deceased relatives there, something like 10 times he was ‘baptized’ in their place. Still don’t really understand how that became a practice with Mormons, but I feel that way about a lot of non-Catholic practices.
At the end of the day though, I do feel a bit sad for Mormons/LDS folks. Yes they seem happy and all that, but I just can’t understand how they can reconcile such strange ideas when compared to basic history. Catholics get the same accusation of course, but most of those accusations can be refuted with solid evidence if the accuser is willing to argue in good faith. Mormonism though, I just don’t see the same level 🤷♀️
It's a great question. Paul instructed disciples re:this practice in Corinthians chapter 15. Reconciliation comes with study and understanding. it actually makes sense if you try and figure out how someone could be condemned to hell for not having an opportunity to be baptized...which incidentally is how the practice of infant baptism began.
Why would God condemn innocent babies to hell, limbo, etc while a sinful baptized person is saved? Isn't this far harder to reconcile than the belief that everyone will have an opportunity to accept or reject the gospel of Jesus Christ and have a baptism performed on their behalf?
Human beings are loveable... I would never wish hell on anyone. Jesus saw each human being be a born innocent baby, they just grew up corrupted.
@@HaleStorm49Paul mentioning something is FAR from him supporting something.
Baptism does not make sense after death. If they are dead, they either get saved or not. If not, no prayer or ritual from third persons will help them.
@@crusaderACR Alonso he is not _mentioning_ it, he's instruction them in correct doctrine. If you reject it that's your choice.
@@HaleStorm49 Have you read the chapter? You cited the whole chapter so I guessed you did. He was not in the whole section teaching practices. It was debunking! Baptism was already discussed in other letters and it was clear the why and how.
Read it well: In that section he is first criticizing a specific heresy that believed that the unbaptized are annihilated at death - their soul just vanishes, nothing after. Jehovah's Witnesses is a modern heresy that advocates this, I believe.
Right after he says basically if there's no soul, what are you baptizing anyway?
The whole argument is about resurrection after death being FUNDAMENTAL to Christianity. "If Jesus was not resurrected, YOUR FAITH IS FUTILE"
So brother, much what we know of baptism is all over the Bible, it's just not in that part. The whole Bible makes it extremely clear: Salvation is YOUR responsibility. You cannot save others by proxy!
Why can't I then take a roster of the world's dead from the last 100 years and baptize them? Damn, let me baptize Hitler real quick, he'd go straight to heaven with no effort of his own!
As a Latter-day Saint/ long time fan of yours, I must applaud you for the high quality video. Though I obviously have my disagreements with what you've presented, overall it's a very well researched/ considered critique of our faith that deserves serious attention. Quite often people who criticize Mormonism do so from a blatantly misinformed perspective. It's refreshing to see somebody take our faith seriously enough to actually do their homework. Well done!
Have you read the CES Letter yet?
@@Jay_in_Japan Yeah. Back in like 2015 (kinda old news). Please tell me you don't think the CES letter is the pinnacle of critiques with regards to Mormonism? Dan Vogel for example (an actual scholar unlike Jeremy) is a much better source
@@Jay_in_Japan And have you read the CES letter response by Jim Bennett?
@@lukehanson_ First I've heard of it, I'll check it out. Thanks
Thanks Ethan. You saved me from writing out a comment. Although Trent is incorrect in quite a number of points I do appreciate him taking more time than most to research.
I am a former mormon, I am now an Orthodox Christian.
THANKS TRENT! We had a Mormon Nanny, who made many of these points. This was extremely helpful.
As an ex-Mormon and now (Evangelical Protestant) Christian, I would love to see further dialogue or debate between you and LDS apologists. I always really appreciate your reasoned approach even when I disagree with you.
Hey! Mormon here. You've made a lot of great content here and I've loosely followed you for a while now. Almost every single time I see a headline about Mormonism, it's almost a guarantee it's full of nonsense and misinformation. So honestly it was a relief to see that you actually attempted to depict our faith as accurately as possible. It's not hard to tell when someone has actually taken the time, and when they haven't. We tend to be an easy target or punching bag for larger Christendom so many tend to try to get away with half-baked research. I can tell you're acting in good faith though and I appreciate that.
There are a few mistakes/ambiguities I'd like to correct if I may:
- You said he had many spiritual wives, some of which were 14. For one, only a single one of these "wives" was 14, which was not considered wrong or especially unusual in his day. But further on that, she was only sealed to him for "eternity only". It may be helpful to understand how sealings worked at that time to understand why many of his "wives" were not wives in the way we picture them as sexual partners.
- You said after Martin Harris lost the 116 pages Smith translated from other plates. That's not really true as there was only one set of plates. Instead he was told to simply continue translating from the same set rather than going back. Perhaps that's how you meant it, but I think at the very least that can be confusing for some.
- On plurality of gods: We believe in a plurality of gods, sure...but only officially as a lowercase "g" god (which is how all publications spell it). Some Mormons speculate on "infinite regression" (God having his own Father and so on) but the Church itself does not embrace or teach that doctrine. It does embrace a version of theosis, however. But there is no official doctrine at all about multiple capital "G" Gods. Many LDS (including myself) do not agree with this speculative idea of infinite regress or multiple "Gods". Many of my arguments (though not all) are the same as the ones you gave. In fact the way you describe the Jewish concept of Yahweh is spot on my conception and the way I understand LDS doctrine.
- On the King Follett Discourse, a few things of note which are somewhat compounding: 1) It is not as a whole considered doctrine. Prophets are human and sometimes speak for God and sometimes speak for themselves...fallibly. This was a funeral discourse, not an official prophecy. That doesn't mean we can reject it outright, but rather it is not necessarily a reliable source of doctrine. 2) There was never an official transcript but many and there appear to be some disagreements on some of these especially controversial points of God once supposedly being mortal. 3) Many interpret the discourse to suggest God himself was exalted from his own mortality. That doctrine is not taught nor embraced by the Church, but is simply the result of speculation of rank-and-file members without authority to declare so.
- This one is nitpicky but...Lamanites is LAY-man-ahyts, and idk how you pronounced Zarahemla but it's just as it's spelled lol. That's more just a personal peeve haha.
Those are mostly doctrinal points I think need clarification. There are lots of things I could push back on regarding geography or God just being some superpowered alien, etc. but that's a whole discussion of its own. I hope these points can be helpful.
Again I can at least appreciate you critiquing and addressing this in good-faith and even-handedly. I'd be happy to discuss these topics with you, although I'd highly recommend you reach out to the channel "Thoughtful Faith" who is actually far more familiar with Catholicism and philosophy/theology more broadly as well as doing video discussions and debates. He's done thorough discussions on Trinitarianism and Creatio Ex Nihilo which you brought up before as well. Since you've given some critique of Mormonism, I hope you're willing to engage with some good-faith responses.
Despite some disagreements, I respect what you do 🙏🏻
Thanks for taking the time to write this! Good-faith criticism is always welcome here. I'll bring this one to Trent's attention. -Kyle
Still creepy, even if it is only one woman age 14!
@@TheCounselofTrent Much appreciated!
@@glennyskitchen9491 Understandable but again a few points on that:
1) Such young marriages were not uncommon for the early 19th century.
2) Her "marriage" to Joseph Smith was a sealing for "eternity only". Meaning there was little to no chance they actually had sexual relations.
3) Her parents were the ones that initiated and approved the whole thing with her approval as well. Consent all the way around.
4) Helen Mar Kimball was her name. She actually went on to very much defend her marriage and the institution of polygamy later in life. She was one of the strongest defenders of it.
All of which seems to me rebuts the "creepiness" of it.
G'day Brother Aelios, have you read the CES Letter yet?
Please pray for my godmother, for whom I'm named. She married a Mormon when i was a child and she left the Church. A couple years ago she revealed to me that the Catholic Church had hurt her "very badly." I didn't get a chance to ask her what happened, but around the same time i learned that young girls in her age bracket, who were all from families of little means, had been abused by the parish priest. This was before Vatican II, for what it's worth. Many of the girls were being raised by their dads after their mothers died, or their mothers were very ill and hospitalized for some length of time. Being a farming community, the mothers didn't work outside the home, but contributed majorly to the family's income because everybody in the family worked on the farm. My godmother was such a girl. She had been sent to live at the rectory for a time, according to some (as noted, I didn't have a chance to ask her). There was a convent on the other side of the church from the rectory, so I don't know why the girls wouldn't have been sent there instead of to the priest's residence, and nobody can explain why, they just insist that's what the arrangement was. Whether my godmother was a victim of abuse or not, something happened that hurt her emotionally very badly, to where she left the Church. My parents asked her to be my godmother because she was pious, devout, and faithful, and they wanted that for me. Please pray for her to heal and return to Holy Mother Church, and also please pray for the victims of that priest and for all victims of clergy abuse.
That must have been traumatic she needs proper counseling.. and I see now why she saw Catholic that way. But a single priest must not damage the whole church.. even where I came from I know priest who was held accountable and in jail.. in summary judge d person not d whole church because everyone is a sinner regardless of religion
It is interesting to note that the 19th century had many groups that tried to get back to what they thought was the “original NT church,” and rejected all other existing denominations. The Reconstructionists were one such Christian group.
"We're the original"
>Gives zero evidence as to how they have the essence of Christianity
Hey, Trent! Really love your channel! Always in for a treat when I watch your videos!
13:12 yes unfortunately they try to hijack the term “Theosis”. Without the proper understanding of what the Church Fathers meant
Thanks for this Trent. Had some Mormons come over and they wanted to come back tomorrow to explain their case more. Watching this and reading other material so I can be the best Catholic witness possible, and help kindly point them in the right direction and defend the True Faith.
I too became Catholic because the God of the Bible is clearly not the one Joseph Smith lays out. “Hear, O’Israel, the lord your God is lord ALONE.” That being said, they way Mormons behave is often more Christian than most Christians. Good people even though the beliefs are deeply flawed.
Well said, LDS are probably the most Christ-like people I've met.
Very nice people, very interesting beliefs🤔
Former member but it was the same plates just 116 pages were not translated. The plates were actually Brass. The reason I became Catholic is the fact the Book of Mormon teaches of Mary's sinless nature and in Transubstantiation, then in Doctrine and Covenants 20 Joseph Smith rejects Transubstantiation. My question then is if Mormonism is true, then why the conflict of scriptural teachings? Catholicism never conflicts with the teachings of the Apostles and Prophets. I then studied the keys of the kingdom, each key pointed me to the Catholic Church.
Catholicism is the one true religion and church.
Acts 5:38-39!
Here is a "very interesting" statement (from a "high up" Catholic leader) that you might find interesting. This is what he said when he came to Utah (and visited with the lds church members) :
“Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well-acquainted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at his tongue’s end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me: ‘You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don’t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that’s all there is to it. The Protestants haven’t a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism’s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days.’” (LeGrand Richards, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder [Deseret Book Co., 1950], pp. 3-4.)
Oof, Kwaku M. El is so freaking abrasive that he makes James White look downright cordial by comparison. Coming from an LDS family, I know the vast majority of LDS people are wonderful, but man, I cannot stand listening to Kwaku.
Your ministry is sincere and educational. God bless always.
I grew up in a Mormon family. All my childhood I was told how Joseph Smith was a prophet that restored the true Church. Then as an adult I really started studying things like Doctrine & Covenants, and started feeling doubts. One day I watched a PBS documentary where I learned for the first time that blacks had been barred from the priesthood and the LDS prophet at the time, Gordon Hinckley, described the meeting where they made the decision. It caused a crisis of faith because the priesthood is a huge part of Mormonism. Wouldn't God have made such a big detail right from the beginning of a "restoration" of the Church? Then if you start digging into who Joseph Smith was you could really start to see the manipulation he exerted on people. Mormons are generally good people but they have been misled.
A major flaw of Mormonism is how they try to hide their history such as the Black issue.
Kudos to you for reading all these Mormon books. I can’t have this stuff living in my head. The Mormon faith is so confusing with no logical path. Thank you for trying to make sense of all of this for us.
Who created satan then?
It's confusing because you are getting it from people who are confused. Not the best method for truth seeking
CatholicChickAZ, everything new can be confusing. If you keep learning the truth it will be less confusing, until it is not confusing at all.
Latter-day Saint here: Thanks for being respectful.
Thanks for watching
Former Mormon Missionary here who is currently in the RCIA. You did an excellent job with this video. I had a very harsh exit out of the Mormon church, a lot of familial and social backlash even to this day. All ex-mo's have different stories and experiences coming out of it. But we are all united in being so grateful that we left. Glory to God!
Nothing screams "I have no sound and valid argument" like repeating the same word or phrase over and over with a smug smile on your face. You could tell the Mormon individual on the podcast was full of it. Thanks for calling out all this stuff!
They are programmed and don't use reason to argue. It is obvious when you try to speak to the Mormons that come to your door.
It is a fact that the non Lds wouldn't answer his question, talked over him, that was not a discussion it was a one sided lecture, and I am Catholic.
@@1Andelina1 His question was irrelevent to the point (as Trent discussed) and he was merely trying to overpower the other person.
My grandpa was a cradle Catholic and quite the character. When he was getting on in years he used to answer Mormons by saying, "Oh you're here to talk to me about the Angel Moron!" Playing it off as senility.
Imagine being there when he meets Moroni in the next life. Wonder how he'll play it off.
@@HaleStorm49it’s impossible to meet a being who does not exist.
About the necessity of monotheism, let me tell you one thing I found out. If you want to make a Hindu really angry, call him/her a polytheist. They will tell you that all the gods and goddesses to whom they pay honour are just aspects of the one and only God. There cannot be more than one, because the Lord, Ishwara, Bhagavan, is the Self of the universe. Polytheism always tends to this direction - you can find the same tendency in Greek philosophy.
InspiringPhilosophy's "The Case for Ancient Monotheism Documentary" video also sheds light on evidence for monotheism amongst aborigenal tribes from Australia.
I’m a former atheist who is converting to Catholicism currently. I really like how you described God around the 11 minute mark. When I was an atheist, I ignorantly believed all Christian’s views god as a “genii in the sky” as you put it. Your description of God in this video makes so much more sense in my brain.
Great video format, as a Catholic I would love to see a "3 reasons I'm not Eastern Orthodox" video next.
Read the book, Russia and Universal Church. Vladimir was a russian orthodox who converted to Catholicism, he was one of the brightest minds of the east.
Practicing latter-day-saint here. All fair critiques. These are things I struggle with almost every day. I appreciate your gentleness and tone of compassion. We need more of this.
As an Orthodox Christian, I enjoy your work. Brothers and sisters, let's pray for reconciliation and reunion. Dark days are coming for Christians and Christ's Body, East and West, need to be united.
The Joseph Smith and Mohammed stories are so eerily similar.
I’m glad someone else noticed this
Lutheran Satire made a video about it a while ago, it's called "a latter day re-gift" from about 11 years ago, they did a great job on it.
Especially that part where the first converts roamed and pillaged the continent trying to take over the world. So eerie.
@HaleStorm49 You are correct that as false, demon inspired religions go Islam is way more successful - a billion adherents vs 16 million. But it's early days for Mormonism. Maybe in 1500 years we'll be talking about the Mormonite Empire of the 2200s.
@@HaleStorm49Shhh... religion of peace...
Trent and Laura uploading on the same day? Yes, please! 😂
Very refreshing to hear good faith disagreements. Usually people will just smear and attack strawman arguments.
Ah yes, Mormonism. It’s the Bible paid DLC Expansion pass, don’t you know?
Yeah, I'm getting tired of the microtransactions...;)
The Mormon Great Apostasy is even worse than stated here. In Mormon Theology, the Church must people in the Office of Apostle, who have what they call the "Melchizedek priesthood." This is distinct from the "Aaronic priesthood" which they believe their bishops, elders, etc hold. The Melchizedek priesthood is necessary for ordaining new people; Aaronic priests cannot ordain. So the loss of the Apostles means the loss of the Melchizedek preisthood.
What this means for the Mormon Great Apostasy is that as soon as the last apostle dies without anyone in that office, you cannot ordain anyone else, meaning the church dies in one generation. You may note that none of the early church writings mention any sort of distress about the lack of an apostle office leading to the loss of valid ordination.
This leads to one of three potential conclusions. Either 1) the sin/heresy of the Church was absolutely irrelevant to the Great Apostasy, because even if they had not sinned the Church would have still lost priesthood authority from the death of the apostles; 2) the Church had gone almost entirely apostate while the Apostles were still alive such that they decided not to ordain any new Apostles (this would seem to contradict the existence of Titus, 1 and 2 Timothy, and the Philadelphian Church in Revelation 3:7-12); or 3) the Apostles were completely unaware that an office of Apostle was necessary to continue the priesthood.
To this last point, some Mormon apologists explain the loss of Apostles by saying they were unable to appoint successors due to getting martyred. Setting aside that Mormons believe John the Apostle is still alive so he should be able to ordain, the actions of the Apostles are much more consonant with a vision of spreading throughout the world ordaining bishops to continue succession, than needing to keep Apostle Office alive and sending out missionaries whose death would not cause the death of the entire Church.
You need to read Hugh Nibley, who wrote about this 70 years ago. Apostles and Bishops in Early Christianity.
Option 3. They were aware because they were Apostles and Christ taught them what was to occur. There are several verses in the NT that reference both the apostasy and the restoration of "all things" which includes things that have never been taught before in the last dispensation before Christ returns.
Joseph Smith: this payrus was written by Abraham and it talks about Genesis.
The Papyrus: mummification for dummies
Paul Gregersen debunked the arrogant Egyptologist opinions against Joseph Smith.
@@RichardHolmes-ll8ii it represents Abraham
@@RichardHolmes-ll8ii Paul has no formal teaching in history let alone hieroglyphics or Egyptology so I think I will trust the actual educated people over someone who has made LSD induced videos on TH-cam
@@davidlarssen15HAHAHA, priceless. Paul doesn't need to be an Egyptologist. As Joseph Smith, by revelation, translated the counterfeit (facsimiles) back to the true meaning.
@@RichardHolmes-ll8ii So he needs to have no formal education in a subject to refute those who do this is why Mormonism is false they put aside all logic and irrefutable facts and just have faith because your heart says its true. JEREMIAH 17:9 - The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; Who can understand it?
Jimmy Akin's episode of Joseph Smith is also very good.
If you do debate a Mormon please do not debate Kwaku El. (the Mormon from the clip you showed debating the protestants) He is a random party planner who only gets invited to do debates because he has a social media presence and is willing.
I would recommend Robert S. Boylan who is a graduate of the Pontifical University of Ireland, and has published a few books on LDS thought. Behold the Mother of My Lord: Towards a Mormon Mariology was probably my favorite. He also used to be Roman Catholic, so he would be equipped to talk about differences in theology with out confusing common terms and words used between the two churches to say different things.
Just this morning was telling my husband about Medjugorje, the Marian apparition...he wanted to know to whom, to Joseph Smith??? No, Hunny. The Virgin Mary did not appear to Joseph Smith.
🫢
Time-stamp
0:18, 0:55 - Is Mormon persecution comparable to the persecution of the disciples?
14:35 - Isaiah 43:10, Trent Horn argues that false gods and idols cannot be in view here because many are still being formed to this day.
19:00, 21:00 - Book of Abraham
I was raised Mormon and must admit I'm no longer one but I do believe that the insistence that Mormons aren't Christian is hurting all Christians, we can learn alot from each other
Well said.
Ex Mormon here. No, they are not Christians.
They objectively are not Christians. This is not up for debate.
It doesn't hurt us at all. It is a helpful distinction. The theological gap between the two is too great to not warrant a distinction.
@@jeffs4483 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the *Most* Christian. I know I would be lying if I tried to admit otherwise.
Man, I used to be Mormon and the teach jeans that I learned were very, very corrupted not only that they taught that we could become gods one day, but the thing was I didn’t feel the spirit of God so I love the church and then I found myself into protestant where they talk about faith alone yeah I felt God in that, but it wasn’t the full truth, but the spirit of truth or Holy Spirit Brought me back home to the Catholic Church
Thank you Trent. Very informative. God bless🙏
This is very convenient, I just was talking to my SIL who has starting going to a mormon church because the missionaries are nice
Hey Adam, this nice serpent showed me some great fruit…
My inlaws are Mormon and I've always said that people join the church for the social structure, not the doctrines.
The social structure is amazing. Truly nice people with lots of activities going on, and excellent support of families.
But the doctrines........ 😬
@@scroogemcduckismyspiritanimalyou can't have one without the other...as most other churches have demonstrated while turning their nose at LDS theology.
@@HaleStorm49 no, there are very very many nice Protestant and Catholic churches too.
With lots of families building community, good structure, members helping each other grow in virtue.
So you can have the social structure without Mormon doctrine.
My point was that Mormons have definitely got that going for them....and that's what's attracting people cause the doctrine is illogical.
@@scroogemcduckismyspiritanimal thinking illogically is like bullying. You can see it everywhere except in the mirror. Jesus taught us that it's not the seed it's the soil.
I’m LDS and I love Trent’s content. He’s become one of my favorite apologists. That said, I have to correct one point. To say that Joseph Smith “died in a gunfight,” is like saying that the Central Park Jogger (a victim of gang rape) was injured in a Central Park sex party.
He was being held in tiny frontier jail with his brother and two other associates awaiting trial. They were told by the single jailer that a mob of men were planning to kill them. A friend of Smith managed to smuggle a pistol into the prisoners. A mob of 150-200 armed men, their faces painted black, stormed the jail and attacked. The 4 prisoners tried to fight back with the smuggled pistol and a single walking stick. Ultimately Smith and his brother were killed and the two others shot.
Calling that event a “gunfight” deliberately misleads.
Im sure that Trent has been informed by unfriendly LDS critics and hasn’t really fact checked. I wouldn’t expect him to.
So I offer this information as a friendly correction to good faith critics.
That doesn't matter. We know he fought plenty in Missouri and only got into that situation by wrecking the newspaper that spoke against him and declaring marshall law. In the nicest terms the guy was a complete rogue
@@president234
have you bothered to see why he ordered the destruction of that newspaper?
@@michaelangeloevans2722 I did. So what's your point?
@@president234
the reasons for calling for its destruction were legitimate
If you're going to start addressing Mormon truth claims then you need to be willing to have discussions/ debates with the best scholars we have to offer. I'd suggest inviting Robert Boylan or Blake Ostler on your show.
I'll pass that suggestion along to Trent! Thanks! -Kyle
Thanks! I've read Boylan's blog and he has praised my work on pro-life and baptism. I'm open to maybe debating him in Utah if we can get scheduling figured out.
@@TheCounselofTrent Thanks. Engaging with you would be refreshing since we're so used to engaging with counter-cult ministries like Apologia.
@@TheCounselofTrent awesome! I'm LDS, but I think you're the most balanced fair apologist and I think it would be a great discussion.
@@TheCounselofTrent Jacob Hansen also will do debates, he has debated the Trinity and source of authority before. His TH-cam channel is called Thoughtful Faith
“The Apostasy That Wasn’t” was an excellent book by Rod Bennett.
Yes!🙏🏻😀
I remember watching that debate between Dr. White and Kwaku. The “do you believe God can do miracles” argument is so disingenuous.
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Jesus Christ (or a Mormon) and love this channel and am grateful for the respect you show despite our obvious disagreements. The only thing I would mention is that the King Follet sermon is not considered canon or scripture and that there is some disagreement on wheather or not God was once a man within the members of the church. I, for one, am in the camp that he has always been God like you do.
Once again, love your channel and will continue to watch!
We must continue to grow in faith throughout our lifetimes. God Bless You.
I don't think Trent understands enough about LDS theology to do a good enough job of deconstructing their beliefs. Watching someone obliterate a strawman is pretty unimpressive.
Also, anybody got a map of the Garden of Eden? No? Why is that ok again?
The Book of Abraham isn't the keystone of lds faith but I understand wanting to use it to discredit Joseph smith as a prophet. However, I think it's a fairly weak argument due to many factors regarding original documents, aprocryphal validations, and ancient literary tropes. It's just not the gotcha people make it out to be.
One of the odd things about Mormonism is that the Book of Mormon has some verses with trinitarian/monotheistic language.
2 Nephi 31:21 - "...And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen."
Mormon 7:7 - "...unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end."
Alma 11:26-29 - "And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?
And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
And he answered, No."
“Zeezrom” lol. I couldn’t come up with a funnier made up name.
@@kidus_1010 True lol
@@kidus_1010 Joseph Smith _made up_ more names in 3 months than Shakespeare did in his entire life. Could you do that?
@@HaleStorm49yes, I could.
1:45 "Shoot out" implies mutual combat. Joseph Smith was being martyred for being a true prophet. It was not mutual combat.
I love videos about the LDS church. Such an interesting religion
Trent talking Thomism always makes my day.
I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We have scholars that give great answers to all these issues which Trent raises. I appreciate his honesty and sincerity. I once left my faith once after learning about these issues. My favorite scripture though is proverbs 3:5 which says to trust in the Lord with all thine art and lean not on thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him and he shall direct thy paths.” I’ve done that and I’ve overcome the craftiness of men and answered all my questions and issues. Nevertheless I get why people can’t get over these issues and I still love y’all. I enjoy the channel and find all these discussions interesting.
“Great answers”? Hmmm, I’m gonna disagree with you there, as an ex-Mormon who went through the process of hoping lds apologists could provide answers. Their answers are laughable. Sorry, they are shooting blanks, friend.
@@ChaChaDancin Have you inquired of the Lord?
Scholar erudition and rethoric have nothing to do with the truth!!!
@@ChaChaDancin I can answer them! (or at least try) No apologetics needed. (thanks and let me know)
Mormon here, and I think this is the most thorough and well-intentioned explanation of my faith (and of the critics to it) I have seen from someone of a different faith. There were a few points that made me wonder how serious you were about your critique (like Joseph Smith being all in on it for the women and power, and what seemed like a skepticism that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is indeed a "Church"). But overall, you let the facts stand for themselves rather than ascribing a malicious motive to my church like many others do.
In addition, I've watched many different Mormon apologists over the past 3 years and the one you featured in the James White debate is the one with whom I've had the most disagreements. He traps himself into defending some viewpoints that I would say are not consistent with Mormon doctrine, and I feel like he comes at a theological debate like a politician rather than a philosopher. He's fun to listen to at times and well-intentioned, but I don't think he's a good one to put as a standard of Mormon thought.
Being a member of the Church myself, there were several inaccuracies in this video that will give viewers, particularly non-members, false notions and ideas of what we actually believe. And much of what he shared and disagreed with he did so in ignorance. Whether he omitted and lied intentionally or not, I'm not sure, but it doesn't matter. The fact remains, viewers will get false ideas of the Church.
For me, I never listen to apologetics. The whole point of them is to prove your point right and the other wrong. I have seen them before and that's why I don't listen or watch them. The Spirit has never been there for me.
@@TheForgottenMan270 I recently rewatched this video and I did pick up on a few other things that I didn't pay attention to before. There's no doubt that people will get false ideas of what we actually believe from this video, but I still say Trent is the least malicious and most well-intentioned apologist out there. From his tone and content, I am confident it comes from ignorance and not malice.
To be honest, I don't listen to apologists to feel the spirit (for that I'd much rather listen to the Prophet and the Apostles). I do it to get a sense of why other people believe a certain doctrine, policy, or historical matter is the way it is so I can better adapt my own responses to concerns that people may have about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I've received my own answers on why things are the way the are (though I continue to seek revelation in case there is something more I'm missing), but my answers aren't exigent to everyone, especially if they aren't looking or for them.
I would really enjoy it if you would do some more shows on this topic. I have studied Mormonism quite a bit, but I have great difficulty in showing the errors.
Your stuff is always helpful. Thanks
At 6:26, I would totally dispute that Lehi's family crossed the Atlantic Ocean. His family fist went down to Arabia and crossed it, built a ship, and came over, and according to the Book of Mormon, landed on the seashore that bordered the West Sea.
At 8:31 Trent makes mention that the Book of Abraham mentions "the gods" created the world as opposed to "God created the world" just for clarification the word "God" in Genesis chapter 1 is elohim, when you have the name "el" you have the singular masculine "God" when you have "eloh" you have the singular feminine word for god or goddess, elohim is the plural form of both of these words.
Most scholars agree the Old Testament was written in three or four phases, the Elohist, those who worshipped the true Elohim as opposed to false pantheon such as Zeus and the Olympian gods, the priestly phase basically centered worship around the Tabernacle, the yahist who went a step further and centralized worship around one key God and Deuteronomist who centered yahwaist worship exclusively in Jerusalem
To make it clear, Abraham was a elohist, that's why he paid tithes to Melchizedek priest of the mist high God (most high meaning others existed under the most high)
Elijah was a Yawist literally having "Jehovah is God" in his name, but he built and performed burnt offerings outside of Jerusalem
Josiah was a Deuternomist meaning he forced the worship of Jehovah into one location Jerusalem.
Jesus honored the traditions of all four of those but also was critical of some aspects of each. In demonstrating his own Divinity he mostly appealed to elohist doctine
Tell me, without any doctrine from the LDS church, how does God save those that never heard about the gospel but are still under His spoken law that no one will enter the kingdom of God without baptism?
Great video Trent
@dboan; so you're ok with Catholic Church history?
And Trent i would love to have an inter-faith discussion about our faiths.
Biggest reason for me is that Mormons don't believe Christ is God. They believe he is a being created by God. John 1:1 tells us that isn't true.
We believe Christ is God
@@spideyN8R Wrong. They do not believe Jesus was God in the flesh but was a preexisting spirit child of God the Father and Heavenly Mother. In fact, they believe that Jesus and Satan are both spirit children of God and are brothers. These beliefs are not consistent with believing that Christ is God. Mormonism simply isn't Christianity. It's something else.
It's crazy how one minute a Mormon will say I am Christian but also believe in levels of heaven with no hell or become god of your own planet.
Not totally accurate
A Protestant once said his biggest reason for not being a Mormon is that "Mormon" is not in the bible..to which he was told neither is Protestant..to which he said "but not everything has to be in the bible"😒
Interesting little straw man. Not unlike a story an atheist might tell about a theist.
@@EmberBright2077 or a Protester about a Catholic...it was a joke tho
@@J-PLeigh8409 your bad joke is hilarious! LOL 😆
11:30 Wait, God doesn’t think!? Huh? You just blew my mind. If God doesn’t think or react, then God would have no agency; if there is no agency, there is no good or evil. So is God outside of good and evil? Is He amoral? Then why is mankind subject to good and evil and given agency? Why would that matter to Him? And why do we refer to an act of being as a gender? How does an act of being, that has no passions, love? And if God is just a Mystery and so far beyond our comprehension why would God command us to be like Him? How can you begin to be like something you cannot comprehend? All my questions here are very sincere. I have been trying to understand the concept of the trinity for over forty years but have never found an explanation that makes sense to me, and I truly do want to understand it, so if anyone thinks they can enlighten me on the trinity or any of the above questions, please please share it with me.
40 years of deception can't be explained away to one with an obviously closed mind : being clueless about the Trinity for 40 years but saying they tried to understand it???? you would just waste everyone's time to try and clarify it to you!
So the fact that you can “become like god” didn’t raise a hug red flag? Considering that was the first lie told to humans by none other than the adversary?
"I say, the Word of God became a man, so that you might learn from a man how to become a god." - Clement of Alexandria
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Psalms...also Jesus.
What the devil said was that Eve would be "like God," not that she would be a god. What he meant was that she, who until then in her innocence knew only good, would now know both good and evil the way God does. (Even though evil is a privation and can't properly be said to be known, nevertheless God knows it as a privation just as we do. The difference is that God knew it from all eternity, whereas we had to learn it through sinning.)
And that is exactly what happened. The devil did not lie. What he lied about was that she would not die, and it was her belief of that lie and concomitant unbelief in God's promise that she would die that brought about her and Adam's downfall.
@@AeliosArt but this doesn't mean what Mormons claim it means. It didn't to the church fathers.
@@jackdaw6359 And how do you think Mormons mean it? I'm LDS...I've seen other LDS make weird claims about becoming capital "G" Gods and running a bunch of planets and whatnot...but that's certainly not what any official doctrine or scripture states at all. I promise you that THAT specific conception of theosis is nothing but pure, unauthoritative speculation.
@@AeliosArt but its not just speculation. That is what early Christians and Jews would rightfully call blasphemy
I’m studying Catholicism, Mormonism and Hinduism bc those are the religions of my family. It does seem Catholicism is the best mainstream Christian religion to me.
I am active in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I love the Lord and I fight for the rights of people to “worship how, where, and what they may”. This is core to our beliefs. The LDS church is one of the strongest and most outspoken fighters for religious liberty.
Although we may have disagreements with other faiths, we will fight alongside you for your freedoms. We believe that the Constitution was divinely inspired. Freedom is crucial for God’s plan. I served my mission in Argentina and I was blessed to meet many wonderful Catholics. Such beautiful people!
My heart was swoll with joy when I heard that Shia Lebouf had joined the Catholic faith. I am also a huge supporter of James Caviezel. My favorite movie is The Count if Monte Cristo and I recently watched Sound of Freedom. I am encouraging everyone I know to watch it.
Trent have you ever watched any of Robert Boylan’s videos? Hes is widely considered the best LDS apologist and is a convert from catholicism.
Wow i didnt know the post-gold plates stuff. I thought they were Christians plus gold plates story. The "God was one of us" bit turns them into something else entirely.
No unmoved mover.
You should probably get some clarification from an actual member.
@@clearstonewindows
Ex member here. LDS are not Christians.
@@jeffs4483 We all know your Ex. Every post you make says "I have an axe to gride" You don't need to say it.
🗺️ A Geography Absent
•None of the geographic settings uniquely mentioned in Joseph Smith’s epic work have not been identified, located, nor corroborated. 🤷♀️
•Examples given:
Valley of Alma (Mosiah 24:20, Land of Helam (Mosiah 23:3), Ciy of Amnonihah (Almah 8:6), Village of Ani-Anti (Alma 21:11), Land of Amulon (Moshiah 23:31), Mount Anipas (Alma 47:7) , Land of Antum (Mormon 1:3), City of Boaz (Moron 4:20), Hill of Comnor (Ether 14:28), Valley of Corihor (Ether 14:27), City of Cumeni (Alma 56:13), Land of Cumorah (Mormon 6:2), Hill of Ephraim (Ether 7:9), City of Gadiani (3 Nephi 9:8) , City of Gadiomnah (3 Nephi 9:8) , City of Gid (Alma 51:26) , City of Gideon (Alma 6:7) , City of Gilgal (Nephi 9:6) , City of Gimgimno (3 Nephi 9:6) , City of Helam (Mosiah 23:20) , Wilderness of Hermounts (Alma 2:37) , Plains of Heshlon (Ether 13:28) , Sea of Irreantum (1 Nephi 17:5) *, City of Jashon (Mormon 2:16) , Land of Jershon (Alma 27:22) , City of Jordan (Mormon 5:3) , City of Josh (3 Nephi 9:10) , Land of Joshua (Mormon 2:6) , City of Laman (3 Nephi 9:10) , River Laman ((1Nephi 2:6) *, City of Manti (Alma 56:13) , Land of Middoni (Alma 20:2) , Land of Midian (Alma 14:5) , Land of Minon (Alma 2:24) , Land of Moriancumer (Ether 2:13) , City of Morianton (Alma 5:25) , Area of Moriantum (Moroni 9:9) , Land of Moron (Ether 7:5) , City of Moroni (Alma 50:13) , City of Moroni (3 Nephi 8:10) , City of Mulek (Alma 51:25) , Nahom (1 Nephi 16:34) *, City of Nehor (Ether 7:9) , City of Nephihah (Alma 50:14) , Plains of Nephiha (Alma 62:18) , Valley of Nimrod (Ether2:1) , City of Noah (Alma 49:12) , Place of Ogath (Ether 15:19) , City of Omner (Alma 51:26) , Place of Onihah (3 Nephi 9:7) , City of Onihah (3 Nephi 9:7) , Hill Ramah (Ether 15:11) , Hill Riplah (Alma 43:31) , Water of Ripliancum (Ether 15:8) , Waters of Sebus (Alma 17:26) , City of Shem (Mormon 2:20) , City of Silom (Mossiah 7:7) , Hill Shim (Mormon 1:3) , City of Shimnilom (Alma 23:8) , Valley of Shurr (Ether 14:8), Land of Sidom (Alma 15:1), River Sidon (Alma 2:15), Land of Sinim (1 Nephi 2:12; 14:28) *, Land of Siron (Alma 39:3) , City of Teancum (Mormon 4:3) , City of Zarahemla (Alma 2:26); City Zeezrom (Alma56:13) , and Mount Zerin (Alma 54:23).
🤷♂️ 🗺️ ⛰️ 🏜️ ⛏️ ⁉️
Trent, can you please debate (or do a response video to) the TH-camr / Streamer “Destiny” about abortion? His main argument is that only consciousness should be protected, but I’ve not seen any competent pro lifers debate him
So what about someone in a coma? Can they be killed under that view?
Lila rose is competent, so is Kristen. I haven't watched it, but I've heard they just had one. Y'all act like the question is difficult. Anyone can take care of it easily. If consciousness is all that matters, in other words being aware of your surroundings/who you are, then we better start killing those who sleep, those in a coma, those unconscious, those under anesthesia should be fair game etc. That's why the line can't be drawn there. Obviously, the issue here isn't whether someone is conscience or not. The issue is that it's murder (the unjust killing of a human being)
@@angelalemos9811 Watch the debate. It does not make Lila or Kristen look competent. Lila Rose in particular kept speaking over Destiny and Kristen and refused to answer questions put to her. Destiny tied them both up with nots.
I agree with you about consciousness, but I can see Destiny arguing that the difference between people in the situations you mentioned is that they are all humans with fully-formed brains who are unconscious, whereas an embryonic unborn child does not have a brain capable of consciousness. Your "the issue isn't whether someone is conscious or not" wouldn't defeat his argument because according to him, an embryo is not a 'someone' yet.
Yeah, it has always been clear to me that Mormons believe that God is just some guy who got magic powers, and we ourselves can someday become our own god of our own planet somewhere, and "real God" is just the god of Earth.
As much as I love Brandon Sanderson, this drives me nuts while reading his books. He constantly has "gods" that are basically just people. It constantly forces me into mental gymnastics to try to make it make sense. I usually fall back on assuming that "actual God" is just never mentioned, and he's the one who created all the shards, etc.
Trent, also the fact that Book of Mormon clams to have been written down on Golden Plates. And in the Book of Mormon, people were writing on them, like the Brass Plates
Even if I was very charitable and said it was “Golden Colored Metal Sheets”. There is no evidence that Ancient Americans wrote on metal plates like books.
That’s very damming to the Book of Mormon and the LDS religion, because the book and Joseph Smith is the core of it.
It’d be like if us Christians said that the Bible, instead of being originally written on papyri, it was originally written on glass.
_"There is no evidence that Ancient Americans wrote on metal plates like books."_ Because American Archeology isn't fair along and only 1% of 1% has been excavated. More and more has been coming out that has supported everything in the Book of Mormon so it is only a matter of time before evidence comes out.
@@dylanwilliams2202 like what? Give me something from a non biased source. Lol
You don’t have evidence of your own writing system lol. That’s extremely problematic
And 1%? Could I get see something to substantiate that? Or did u make that up? If we have ancient Aztec, Mayan, Inca history(not perfect). They didn’t write on metal sheets as books. Even the Olemecs, which we don’t have anything on, didn’t do
The Book of Mormon has made up cities and what’s even worse Joseph Smith took these ideas from other people. There’s nothing divine about any of this😭
No archeologists wether Christian, Jewish or Atheist, take the LDS church seriously. Even Mormon Archeologists.
Mormonism has the exact same fault line that Islam has at it’s core…. the prophet and his “revelation” when exposed to the sources and dialogue of the faiths that came before show it to be incorrect.
TIL the ultimate apologetic strategy: just repeat "can God work miracles?" over and over.
wonder why did not we empoyed this argument before…
“The mormons believed they’ve restored to doctrines of the early church”
Ahh yes, the fruits of the Protestant heresy alive and well
I wouldn't go as far as considering them as even Protestants but as a separate creature altogether, mimicking hints of Christian beliefs like a camouflage but ultimately different.
Mormons arent even protestants. Mormons deny the Trinity - the most important and pivotal belief of the Christian faith as it centers around who God is in essence. Since they deny the Blessed Trinity, a belief found in ancient Christianity amidst some heresies brewing, they can never have valid baptisms. Mormons are Christian and I do not say this gleefully. It's a tragedy.
Lol👍☺️
Hey protestants are Christians , got to give them that but Mormons... 😅
Protestants would say Catholicism is more similar to Mormonism in how both add things to the Gospel.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
01:25 🕊️ Joseph Smith's risks and rewards: Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, took risks and gained rewards, including multiple spiritual wives and leadership power. This distinguishes his motivations from the apostles' sincerity in early Christianity.
08:48 💡 Mormon henotheism and divine progression: Mormonism's belief in multiple gods and the potential for humans to become gods contrasts with traditional monotheism. Mormons believe in a progression from human to exalted godhood, unlike classical theism.
16:46 🗺️ Lack of historical evidence in Book of Mormon: Unlike the Bible, the Book of Mormon lacks geographical and archaeological evidence. The varying interpretations of where events took place challenge its historical authenticity.
19:10 📜 Book of Abraham controversy: The Book of Abraham's translation by Joseph Smith has been debunked by Egyptologists. The papyrus he translated doesn't align with his claims, weakening the credibility of the Book of Mormon.
22:18 🕊️ Apostasy and church continuity: Mormons believe in a great apostasy that necessitated a 19th-century restoration, while Catholics contend that Christ's Church endured through history without a complete apostasy. This distinction influences their teachings.
Please make more videos about Mormonism!
I grew up in northwest Wyoming. Lots of mormons. I live in northeast Nebraska now. When mormonism gets brought up, I tell them to watch the South Park episode that covers mormon. It is easier to say that than go down the rabbit hole of answering questions that inevitably arise.
If Christ allowed his Church to teach error for 1700 years, what does that say about his faithfulness and reliability? How could we possibly trust “new” revelation that contradicts previous revelation? Without a divinely-appointed and protected guardian of the deposit of faith from the very moment of the founding of his Church, anything goes…as we see in the chaos of Sola Scriptura.
Well said! -Kyle
@ericwolford5685In Catholicism, the Holy Father is only infallible when he speaks ex-cathedra. That doesn't happen very often.
@ericwolford5685I would disagree as Joseph Smith was a founder of something new or theoretically the restorer of something 1700 years old that was lost although we have zero evidence of it being lost. So if his character screams con man: It would undermine his mission. Same with St Peter and St Paul etc. It was pertinent that the foundation of Christianity be holy and far from being seen as a con. But if you can believe God abandoned humanity to a folly of only false doctrines and yet produce our saints, you can believe anything. My response to Mormonism is this: God gave me a burning in the bosom, telling me the mass is true and the Catholic church is true. This means nothing in debates. History is why I chose to be Catholic. The eternal God of Israel was true and always had people and communicated clearly with them. When Our Lord fulfilled all the prophecies there was nothing else to be waiting for. No prophecy would confirm Joseph Smith or Mohammed or anyone else. With zero prophecies to confirm them and with no problems one sending Smith, but an apparent angel of heaven. All Christians rightfully rejected it as something new. And not a restoration because a brief inquiry in history doesn't show LDS beliefs anywhere.
@ericwolford5685 Guess we found an Israelite who would have easily abandoned Israel. 😂
@ericwolford5685 Yeah, the very Israel that worshipped the uncreated God who was eternal. Who had no beginning. Who they never ever claimed to have been a man. To you guys really still believe God was a man or are you free to reject such nonsense?
Because we worship The Great I AM. The God who is to be worshipped by every other creature in the universe.
The Great Apostasy is more nuanced and kinder to Catholics than what you described. Latter-Day Saints do not believe there has ever been an absolute loss of people who strived to do everything in their power to maintain Christ’s power. Clearly there has been extreme devotion to Christianity throughout history ever since Jesus came to Earth. The only parts of the Great Apostasy that Latter Day Saints believe were absolute were the break in apostolic succession due to lack of transference of Priesthood keys by laying on of hands and a lack of continuing revelation.
Latter-Day Saints believe priesthood authority must be transferred by laying on of hands as a saving ordinance similar to baptism, endowment, and temple sealing. Although there may be historical evidence of apostles attempting to delegate responsibilities in a church hierarchy, there is not evidence that priesthood keys received from Christ by imposition of hands, or laying on of hands, were transferred by laying on of hands to successors before the original apostles were killed.
Ultimately the validity of this belief stems back to whether or not Joseph Smith was telling the truth. The best way to determine that is to read the Book of Mormon. Most naysayers don’t put in the time. Just like there is no “proof” of God’s existence, there is no “proof” that the Book of Mormon is true. If you understood the Book of Mormon, you would admit that it is not logically disprovable. Academically, there is plenty of literary evidence that the Book of Mormon is true. There is very little archaeological evidence, but that is the inherent lacking nature of American archaeology. If one wants to have good evidence, what better evidence than from God? Discerning answers from the Holy Ghost is by definition subjective, but all human knowledge is by definition subjective. All that said, having profound spiritual experiences is possible. My knowledge is by definition imperfect, but I know the Book of Mormon is true.
Similar to all critics of our church, Trent begins with a fundamental false premises or a lies. For example "Mormons reject the existence of God." Trent starts his argument with a significant falsehood, expecting us to accept his flawed logic built on this untruth.
He then attempts to compare his understanding of God as the model (classical theism), suggesting that because our Church doesn't align with it, our understanding is deemed false. He also gets lost in his own logic and I also need an asprin .
It's accurate that our Church does not adhere to the teachings that emerged from the many Nicene meetings held 300 years after the death of the Apostles, particularly concerning the identity of God.
Our belief in the Godhead is rooted in scriptures such as "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…" I can provide numerous other scriptures supporting our doctrine. Trinitarianism, however, distances us from our identity and purpose with the Father and His son Jesus Christ, hindering our understanding of how our Father in Heaven communicates with us through the Holy Ghost, which we refer to as personal revelations.
His criticism of The Book Of Mormon should be embarrassing given the flawed nature of his reasoning. Requesting a map is comparable to weak reasoning, resembling an atheist demanding to see God before believing in God. Trent appears to lack an understanding of the concept of "faith": "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen... (Hebrews)” Also do we have a map of Adam and Eve to the Flood of Noah. I guess he does not believe in these parts of the Old Testament? We need a map to believe?
It's true that within the Church, opinions about the actual location of the Book of Mormon in the Americas may vary. However, the Church has never officially claimed a specific location in the Americas.
BUT, all we ask is for you to read The Book of Mormon on your own and ask God to know if it's truthful. You don't need a map; you can know for yourself, by yourself. The Book of Mormon doesn't diminish the Bible; it enhances it! ENJOY
BTW, less than 1% of the ancient ruins in the Americas have been unearthed.
Hey Trent. How would counter a point saying, “well we may know where Jerusalem is, but no one agrees as to where the garden of Eden was either.”? Also, I would like to hear you debate a Mormon or continue these in depth explanations. I have a few Mormon friends, some who want to engage with me in discussion and others who don’t. Either way, I’ve found it very hard to understand the religion, and this video helped a lot. I feel like more of this would be very helpful
There were no maps when Adam and Eve existed so how would we have have a map of the Garden of Eden?
@@twoody9760 because the argument would be that, and I can’t specifically remember, but a lot of the places spoken about in the stories of the Book of Mormon would have also not had maps at the time, idk though, that’s why I’m asking. Like if you think about historically the native Americans weren’t literate and did not use physical maps like we do, so that would be their argument as well
The Garden of Eden was a garden at the beginning of time occupied by two people. The Nephites and Lamanites were supposedly continent spanning civilizations that existed for 1000 years until around 400AD. Not really the same thing. The absence of any archeological evidence for the Nephite cities is, shall we say, highly conspicuous.
@@BaremetalBaron great point! Thank you!
Yes. The LDS Church believes that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One Eternal God.
It’s sad to be born into a cult, and have no clue, but what’s most insane, is that not a few Catholics have been converted to mormonism. 😳
_"It’s sad to be born into a cult..."_
Wait. You literally worship ritual human sacrifice.
And you also believe, without any evidence, that God walked around town for thirty years and then died and became a zombie and then the graves opened and the corpses and skeletons rose out and "appeared to many" and all of that happened without any of the locals noticing.
Sadly true. When I was a Mormon, everything I knew about Catholicism came from very poorly catechized ex- Catholics. I didn't realize that at the time of course, but looking back...
@@TheRichmondRoadie
I was an anti Catholic too as a Mormon lol
Well, when Catholics have been poorly catechism since the 70s and we outnumber Mormons by 10 to 1, the odds are in their favor.
Excellent apologetics like this will change that though :)
@@EvilXtianity Cult members rarely realize they're in a cult. For Mormons, perhaps they realize it when they finally start doing Temple ceremonies, and it turns out it's all just copy pasted from Freemasonry. (No coincidence that Joseph Smith joined the Freemasons, though he stoked the ire of fellow Freemasons).
Read Acts 3:19-21 where Peter prophesied that the heavens would receive Christ until the "times of the restitution of ALL things!!!" Read Psalms 82:6 "Ye are gods and ALL of you are the CHILDREN of the Most High."!!! Continued...