Berger, Hovland and Dahmen discuss ruling at THE PLAYERS
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ต.ค. 2024
- In the final round of THE PLAYERS Championship 2022, Daniel Berger and playing partners Viktor Hovland and Joel Dahmen have a dispute about where Daniel Berger’s approach shot crossed into the water on the par-5 16th hole.
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The PGA TOUR heads to the iconic Stadium Course at TPC Sawgrass for the 2022 edition of THE PLAYERS Championship. The top 30 golfers in the FedExCup standings, including 2017 FedExCup winner and defending champion Justin Thomas, will tee it up this week. World No.1 Jon Rahm, Rory McIlroy, Viktor Hovland and Collin Morikawa are just some of the biggest names in golf battling it out for the $3.6 million winner’s share. Hovland remains one of the hottest players in the game, leading at the halfway point of the Arnold Palmer Invitational presented by Mastercard. Hideki Matsuyama is also in impressive form after winning the Sony Open this year. In 2020, Matsuyama tied the TPC Sawgrass scoring record (a 9-under 63) in the opening round and following the cancellation of that tournament, he'll be aiming to go all the way for the first time this year. The reigning FedExCup Champion, Patrick Cantlay, is looking to continue his excellent start to the season - he’s finished outside the top 10 in just one of his five starts so far.
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Huge respect for Joel Dahmen here. He read the situation perfectly and could see Berger was getting defensive and Viktor getting nervous about calling Berger out so he went ahead and straight up called Berger out. Sometimes the Big Dog needs to make himself heard and Big Joel did it perfectly. You have to protect the field. Feelings come second
That’s not what I got at all lol
Good call out by Joel
Well from the original tracer and the different visual angles, honestly everyone’s perspective lines up. Dahmen and Hovland probably didn’t perceive the ball cutting as much as it did from the left, but the tracer obviously showed it did. Looks like he ended up dropping in the most accurate spot as far as that first tracer shows, definitely past the grass bunker, but not all the way up to the red stake.
I see the same thing
I’ve seen that on occasion for sure, but you can actually see his initial ball flight off the club, and in this case, the tracer literally painted over the top of his ball. Overall the compromised drop spot looked about as accurate as the reality of the situation, so it isn’t a big deal, but the difference between where Berger wanted to drop and where the other two thought they saw it was certainly drastic enough of a difference for the debate to be reasonable enough. I think it turned out fair is all I’m saying.
I went back to the first vid and I thought the same exact thing, the compromise seemed be the perfect spot
@Jackie Jay I don’t think anyone really cares to be quite honest w you
Def think it's the right spot. You could see the divot he took and how it was going to be a cut the whole way
Pga tour has been killing it with the TH-cam videos this weekend ! Keep up the content this is dope
Algorithm finally found you?
@@cardiderek no you artard they haven’t been posting good content until now
They wont
Top tracer, replays, cameras everywhere, official says I dunno 🤷♂️
Exactly.
I mean he’s right tho they all 3 saw it with their own eyes they’re grown up enough to come to a reasonable drop area
@@travisebert7286 agree
Yeah that’s pretty pathetic. Letting who your playing against choose where they so called thought it went out
@@trevorenglish6594 thems the rules though
To me it looks like the midway drop could be the right drop in the end.
From the spectator view, it was good to hear this and understand what the touring pros go through.
This is similar to the Asch phenomenon. Convincing a person they saw something different based on social pressure. And Berger was having none of it. As one the crowd there for the shot, the majority agreed with Berger. I still love Hovland!! PGA rule is a good one. Decide on a Compromise location and move on. :)
As Hovland said…he and Dahlmen have to protect the field. It’s nothing personal.
I guess "the field" doesn't include Berger
@@wgsmit02 ..I’ve watched the shot a few times and think Berger was right. But it doesn’t change the fact Hovland and Dahlmen have to go with their view of the shot and protect the rest of the field. In fact, the compromise drop was a mistake by Berger. He was overruled by the other 2 guys and should’ve went to where they recommended.
@@HughJorgan1 he actually could have dropped where he wanted to. But at the risk of DQ. He also could have played 2 balls.
Probably was they were wrong so a little weird
That implies that other golfers need protected from Daniel.
to be fair, the place where the ball was dropped (between Berger, Hovland and Dahmens points of view) was pretty much where it crossed.
I agree, Hovland and dahmen were way off but so was berger. I think they chose correctly. On a seperate note, I’d honestly wanna throw hands with how one of them started saying water ball after it was hit.
With the rules how they are I think they all know that they have to over compensate their case so that the middle ground is closer to the actual result.
@@Thatguy-fg4fp Berger is the one who called his own ball the “water ball”
I’m not a fan if berger, i actually like hovland more but i have to agree with berger a bit. He has the best angle cause he hit the dang ball. Joel and victors perspective are skewed cause they are left and the ball is cutting. They’ll see a straighter ball flight. Berger’s ball definitely started left and then cut, not at the pin with a slight cut. Berger explained it exactly as the tracer showed. I don’t think it crossed at the red stake but it was certainly further up than that grass bunker. Like berger said he’s 100% sure it did not cross there. His ball didn’t miss the green by much, if his ball crossed where hovland said, with that much cut on the ball it would have hit the water much further right.
Anyone who’s played enough golf knows has experience situations like this where one player see it one way because of their perception. It’s no different from viewing a putt from one angle and thinking it’s right to left but it’s actually left to right when you view it from a different angle.
To be fair, if you compare Viktor's statement that the ball pretty much started at the pin with the footage you see why Berger was arguing.
:02 Ball definitely started to the left of the pin and had quite a bit of fade. I think I'm with Berger on this one.
Honestly all 3 of them handled it well in the heat of the moment. It's unfortunate that subjectivity and human error get in the way of it. If the tracer is correct than I think Berger's original drop would have been slightly too close but Berger and Hovland were definitely wrong in their judgment. I can see where based on the body language and also being in the left side of the fairway (not directly behind the ball) they could have plausibly believed the ball started farther right. Hope they don't have hard feelings about it as I think they were all being genuine and polite about the whole thing.
Well Dahmen said he was only a few paces away from Berger’s shot when he hit it, so I’d say he would have a pretty good idea.
Dahmens opinion to me matters most. And no doubt hard feelings forever!
I don't see how Vik could have seen how much cut his ball had from his view, he was on the other side of the fairway. I do think Daniel's original drop spot was too close though.
Totally disagree, Berger acted like a child and douch. Trying to talk all tough to a nice guy like Hovland, I would have scrapped that dude up if I was there just based on his feminine attitude
I would side w/ Berger. Just look at the pro tracer replay.
DB said it perfect. He said it started just left of the 16 and ended just right of the green. The original tracer shows that perfectly. The player knows his start line and end point usually unless they look away in disgust.
The problem was Berger was trying to drop way too close to the green and didn’t consult before choosing his spot . Looking at hole graphic and tracer, Hovland and Dahmen were clearly wrong in their assessment on both the start line and crossing point. That said the compromise drop spot was the best, most fair outcome. Kudos to rules official for mediating this tricky situation without unnecessary drama.
He should've asked. Absolutely. I always ask my playing partners where they think I should drop. I explain my line/thoughts, and they can agree/disagree.
Bobby Jones would have dropped where Hovland and Dahmen said.
Bobby Jones wasn’t playing for a piece of $20m either!
Yeah. But Jones is an icon and Berger lost most of his fans trying hus hard est to cheat while talking shyte.
Viktor Holland is such a good dude.. hope to see him get some more dubs in the future !
doesn't mean he wasn't wrong here though
@@CrazyAboutVinylRecords that's what I said
@@conbaz106 Berger is a cheater.
My guy Protect the field I love that. We need More people like victor hovland in golf peroid
I tend to lean with Joel and Hovland, 2:09 hes not even sure it's not up there but it def isn't all the way back there seems like a guy who isnt sure, I doubt 2 Pro players the quality of these guys would call him out if they werent sure, If your hitting the shot your not looking at were it crossed your looking at the flight and the ball in the air.
Need more of these interactions!!!
Looking at the shot, versus the 3D of the hole, he went in halfway between the grass bunker and the sand bunker. It was only 5-10ft into the water.
I would think the player hitting the shot would have the best vantage point. Even if you are 5-10 yards off to the side your perspective can be way off. Berger seems like an honest person that I would trust his judgement but whatever edge you can get, it's still a business for them.
Probably the two most care free guys on tour (Damen/Hovland) all of a sudden are rule sticklers, tells a lot about how Berger is perceived/liked.
That is a great point. Something about this shot required much deeper thought and analysis than you would ever see.
well, you can see the tracer, i'd have to say perspective is everything and Daniel was right, it did go out further toward the pin.
I agree - if you look at the shot tracer the ball started about 10 yds. left of flag and began to fade. However, if you put a ruler from the apex of the shot to the ground, it appear that the ball crossed just after the apex of the tracer. I think it was a good compromise, and the different angles of Dahmen and Hovland would have accounted for their viewpoints.
I think it definitely crossed further up from where he dropped, however not as far as he claimed. It appears it was atleast 40 yards out from the green
Patrick Reed said he saw it from five holes away and he would have dropped “a foot from the hole!”
It isnt the first time Berger is arguing with other players and caddies. He doesnt seem to be very likeable. Everyone knows what a fair and honest player/person Hovland is. Last year (dont remember the tournament) he even told the referees afterwards that he made a mistake with the marker after being aware of it (told by his mum) which made him get two penalty points, and thus he didnt make the cut. Who else would do that when no officials or players had noticed the mistake?
That ball went straight over the water and then cut into the lake later, he should of dropped way back there, they always said there are cheaters on tour.
@@matt7iron what are u watching. Watch from the beginning. The ball starts way left and cuts big time right. The tracer shows it
Not likeable I’ve always said it idek why lol
0:05 The shot tracer at it's apex shows where it crossed the hazard... and it shows a decent amount of fade so i think DB is correct here
100%, Ball practically crossed 10 yards into the hazard in front of the green
@Jackie Jay only entered few yards into the water next to the green. From the looks of where db started the ball it must’ve crossed much further down than hovland thought.
It looked like it ended up a few yards into the water to the right of the green. Given the curve on the ball as per the tracer, this means it must have crossed the water later in its flight and not earlier, otherwise it would've ended up further away in the water body. So the point of crossing was closer to green as Berger said.
That ball started at the left side of the green with a substantial fade, why did Dahmen say it started at the flag with not much fade.
How do you know it started at the left side of the green?
@@richlewis1879 because the tracer shows it did.
Agreed! Shot tracer clearly showed the flight of the ball.
@@PTdoubleOT I didn't see it. But we can't go 100 percent by the tracer imo. If we did, Cameron smiths ball on 17 should have been in the water
@@richlewis1879 tracer is a damn sight better than humans guessing where it crossed
Love the way these guy’s handled it. However, to me, it did look like the ball was cutting a fair bit. Idk if Viktor’s line was quite right. Great clip though.
Hovland and Dahmen were not standing behind Berger and their line of site would be different. Berger has the best vantage to know where the ball crossed. If I would have been Berger I would have dropped where I saw it cross. Dropping in a "compromised" location should be a penalty, because it was not the correct spot.
You’d think they have some cameras over looking hazards for this kinda thing 🤷
Yep…they have a big camera tower located behind and to the right of the 17th green but probably was not focused on this particular shot.
@@Tom-ok2rh sounds like they need maybe one more camera up there then
@@brandonreynolds6029 you know very well that #17 gets the lion’s share of coverage.. BTW that was an unbelievable putting performance by the winner.. can’t imagine making 10 birdies with Sunday pin placements.
@@Tom-ok2rh fairly so it’s a beautiful hole and yeah tbh I can’t imagine making 10 birdies period 🤣😂 but yes what a performance
Berger was right!! If you do screen shots with the ball tracer on the screen you see it starts well left of the flag. Really almost left side of green. It crossed no doubt 75-85 yards from the pin.
And he tried to drop it at 30 yds so.... I've played there several times. That grass peninsula is 100 out and the apex flight is on the line just past that. You are correct with 85 yds but thats not where the red stake he was trying to use is.
From my perspective, Hovland and Dahmen were protecting Berger too. They made sure he took an appropriate drop (in their opinion) and therefore stood no chance of being accused later of dropping incorrectly.
I think dahmen and Viktor are right. Berger’s ball was almost on the right side of the grass cut out. It was like 15 yards shot and right
The tracer proves this wrong; Hovland and Dahmen said they thought the ball started at the pin and couldn’t have cut 20 yards. It clearly started well left of the pin and did cut substantially, probably at least 15+ yards. Their angles were skewed and Berger was the only one who saw the flight most accurately, and the tracer backs that up.
@@joshuahanson8543 even with the cut it looked like it was over rough cut out to me. Any cut when you start at pin is going to be back there
@@joshuahanson8543 it’s tough man. It definitely starts toward the middle of the green but it quickly quickly goes right AND ends up 10-15 yards shot. I also think if both Dahman and Hovland saw the same thing then he should’ve taken their word. Idk Berger but it seemed a little strange, they’re not out to get him. It appears he was trying to drop up by the green
10-15 yards short **
Far too many players tend to think their ball went in at virtually 90 degrees (an exageration in this case, but im sure yall know what im hintimg at) when serious money or major consequence is on the line. Half are cheaters, and the other half i think their minds are legit fooling their eyes due to hope. Not calling berger an attempted cheat....but really curious how he backed down off what he said he KNEW to be fact awefully easily.
Why there is not rules official following every group? Its damn PGA TOUR. Other players shouldn't worry about this
A rules official does not really matter here. Determining and estimating where a ball enters a hazard is the role of the player and his playing partners, full stop. TV replays can be misleading because of the angle of cameras or the aerial shot (remember Tiger at the Players a few years ago?).
The problem with this is that everyone is right. They saw what they saw, but if Hovland and Dahmen were standing slightly to the left of where Berger was standing, it's going to give a different illusion. Dahmen got Hovland riled up. Dahmen did the same thing to Sung Kang that he did to Berger.
Well Dahmen said he was only a few paces away from Berger’s shot when he hit it, so I’d say he would have a pretty good idea.
@@Jmotwa87 Just like with Sung Kang? hahah Dahmen is known for doing this. He got Hovland riled up this time because he learned from the Sung Kang incident.
@@cardiderek ill never forget his "Kang cheated" tweet 💀💀
@@cardiderek "Dahmen is known for doing this". he did it ONCE. and 2 witness's backed Dahmen, one who worked for Shot-Link and was willing to go on the record, you have mentioned this incident a half dozen times in the comment section. could it be that you dislike Joel Dahmen? and Kang finished 3rd in that tournament, thats alotta $$$$$. also he was accused of cheating in 2 tournaments in Korea.
@@johnlozier3292 Twice now. Dahmen is very good at getting people to believe him. Again, Kang is going to have the best view. Easiest way to cheat is to accuse others of cheating. And what Dahmen did on twitter is defamation of character.
The ball flight should not be considered. It may be more simple to be a straight line from the Divot to ball splash . Certain situations may hurt this rule and certain may benefit but it removes the guessing. Discussing how much a ball 'curved' and at which point in the flight, perception can vary depending on where the viewer is in relation to the track of the ball. Players/tracer etc should not be put in a position to negotiate a crossing point. Divot to splash.
If you watch the shot tracer you'll see the ball starts off dead straight middle fairway and cuts around about 15m. I agree with Berger, that ball was dropped at the wrong position.
if you actually believe tracer is accurate all the time you’ll be disappointed. I’ll take the majority rather than one player thinking his one shot should go. Berger needs to learn how to handle conflict better
The live broadcast view from behind Berger is the bast available. It tends to support what Berger said. It also supports the drop location as further up than where Hovland and Dahmen thought.
I agree the live broadcast is the best view but came away thinking it supported right about where the drop took place. Apparently that was a compromised location and Berger called it wrong...also surprised the TV footage couldn't have helped them identify the best spot for the drop to avoid this issue altogether
Doesn't support what he was saying at all. It looks to be about where they compromised. He was way too far up and they were thinking way too far back.
@@PTdoubleOT Berger said his ball flight was to the left of the flag before slicing. The other two thought the ball was right and going right. Replay supports Berger. Not saying Berger is correct to want the drop 30 yards short of the green. But i think we are in agreement that Berger's ball crossed a lot further up than Hovland said.
@@encinobalboa yeah it started left but it was cutting the entire way. I don't really blame Hovland bc from his POV it probably did look like that. Berger on the other hand shouldn't have been trying to drop so far up
I just won my bet on Cam Smith the legend. Great performance. Nerve wracking end
@@jefftaylor8644 most definately
The apex of the shot is where it crossed. The apex is generally 3/4's of the total distance of the shot. I'd say the compromised spot was correct and none of the players had it right. It all worked out.
Maybe Berger thinks Hovland is trying to angle him being that they're both in contention, but Dahmen has no skin in the game at this point in the tournament on where Berger finishes.
On the PGA Tour with the money these guys are playing for, they all have skin. That's the whole point of "protecting the field".
Berger had 236 left. According to the tracer the ball went across the water line after the apex, so at least 80% of the shot, which was itself a little short of the flag, say 20 yards.
So, (236 - 20) x 80% = entering the water at 172.8 yards. This would leave him 63 yards out for his 4th. He played it from 97 yards.
Long story short, I think Berger may have been robbed of up to around 30 yards, making him closer to being 'right'. But given the circumstances I think the spot he took it from was a fair compromise, adding some buffer to ensure it's legit.
All's well that ends well!
How did you come to the conclusion the ball crossed the hazard line at the apex? Remember, the tracer line you're watching is in 3d space. It's too bad they don't continue the shadow line on the ground (you can see the start of it), as that's the real line you need to look at.
@@larrybud Good question. The apex is reached typically around 3/4 distance for a long iron, but with good height on this shot I used 80%. Can draw a vertical line down from the apex to see that it's very close to being directly above the water line. Also mapped it out on google to sense check and it looks like a reasonable assumption, with the cut. Hardly exact science, admittedly but best I can do!
@@kiwislop2077 bad math
Daniel set the tone when he said “call an official and the get the camera.” Didn’t really have to go down that way. In the end made no difference. Better than building sand castles or landscaping your lie in the rough!
also couldnt let it go and kept telling the other guys they were wrong. what did he expect, that they would suddenly go Sorry Daniel you were right and let it go? meh..
True. How can the tour accept video evidence from a so called fan at home (TW‘13 Masters) and give a 2 stroke penalty but can’t provide any video of their own? It seems the controversy is intentional.
@@francisbaconstrip7224 If you saw anything definitive from the two camera angles, then you are seeing things. Neither the tv angle from behind Berger and certainly not the tv shot of the ball going in the batter reveal where the ball crossed the margin of the hazard and assert such is simply rubbish. In thd case you cited and other cases involving a fan calling in, thd video evidence was 100% conclusive. Period.
Let's watch it again from the wrong angle. You know, where we don't see it cross the line. As opposed to the angle behind the player, where we do.
The tracer projects a shadow onto the ground and it looks like it goes through the grass bunker like Hov and Dahmen said
Where it last crossed being the key factor in this situation. Definitely wasn’t where hovland was saying it was
@@brantgomez4890 and it seems to slice through the grass bunker and be last point it crossed
@@opus_da_penguin get your eyes checked bud bud
@@brantgomez4890 oof you really got me on that one lol. All this proves is that it makes sense why they were disagreeing in the first place
The ball at it's apex is seemingly in line with the pin and by the looks of it still has not crossed the hazard. DB has the best angle and seems to me it was closer to where he thought it crossed and not the two competitors. DB has not gotten to where he is cheating and certainly was eyeballing the shot the entire way...
The stop action tracer shows the ball started at a point approx. 15 ft. right of the flagpole. That's 60 ft. left of the pin. How anyone can say that the ball started at the pin is a mystery. If I'm Berger, who had the best view, I'd drop where I say it crossed. Neither of the two playing partners had the same line that Berger did.
Exactly.
You are correct, but the rules say that the playing partners have to agree. And the shot tracer can’t really be trusted, because we don’t have a from the top view, plus those tracers can be way off at times…not saying it was here, just saying they can be.
I'd say I trust two professionals more than tracers, as quite often the tracer is way off. Right rough tracer sometimes is well in right side fairway. Plus you don't have the depth perspective where the tracer crosses the waterline.
I’ve watched the shot tracer a dozen times and I can say definitively that it crossed the hazard somewhere up there.
Definitely. Somewhere between them and the hole.
Who knows how accurate the follow flight was, but judging on that alone I have to side with Berger on this on. Big cut that started at the middle of the green
If you play the video at 0.25x speed you can see the ball for a few frames and the tracer is pretty spot on with the start trajectory to be fair.
00:07 the ball drops just lateral to the black sprinkler head cover by the pin ⛳️ and 01:57 same sprinkler head cover? If so the drop should be by the white golf bag 02:30 🕝 I think Berger may have been correct. 🤔
Here is the simple answer to solve all problems. If a ball goes into any hazard (lateral or water) in the air ball is to be dropped and played from the spot where hit unless specified drop zone. If ball lands and bounces or rolls into hazard then the ball is to be played where last entered. Would prevent the controversy of where the ball enters the hazard 100 ft in the air 150 yards away
If Hovland and Dahmen tell me it crossed there, I'm taking their word. Stand up dudes, with no history of foul play.
Even if they were both standing from an angle that gave them an optical illusion?
@@cardiderek hahahha optical illusion bro come on
No, Derek is right, when perceiving shots from just small angle differences, your eyes can definitely be tricked by the skew in perspective. Watching a cut from the left side of the shot can easily look like a straight shot because as it rises and curves at the same time, it can be perceived as just rising and not necessarily curving. The compromise drop literally looks like the most accurate drop, at least past the grass bunker that Dahmen and Hovland thought he should have been dropping at. They’re stand up dudes for sure, but their angle wasn’t as accurate as Berger’s to make the most accurate call on that. Shot tracer even disproved them saying the ball started at the pin; it started well left.
@@joshuahanson8543 Thanks for backing me up Josh. Dahmen did this same thing to Sung Kang. @Edvin Silfvernagel it's pretty obvious if you watch the camera angle at the beginning. Berger was right.
@@joshuahanson8543 and yes, it started way left
So this is about "angles" and perceptions. Other two players/caddies standing only 20 yards or so LEFT of them. But, that completely changes your view, your perception of the shot. Cool video
Why is his caddy not saying anything if he saw it the way Berger did?
Because the caddy's job is to show up, keep up, and shut up.
@@joellahrman4557 have you seen Jon Rahm's caddy?
@@method341 Yes. Every caddie has his own rapport with his player, and they do speak up when they need to. But as far as a player's caddie getting involved in a discussion with another player, that is generally a no-no.
Looks to me he dropped more or less in the right spot definitely wasnt back where they thought but it wasnt up by the green either
It looks like the compromise ended up being the right spot....which Berger said was "0% chance of being right spot" soooo
Can’t disagree when 2 other guys saw the same line. Nothing personal, just have to protect the field and cause another Patrick Reed 😁
Top stuff guys! However we need it all in 4k
looking at the tracer and taking a screen grab at the last frame of the tracer (sad I know)…. A drop halfway between the grass bunker / tongue and the green is about right.
Looks like the ball crossed slightly after hitting the apex - which is about 75% of the carry distance. Taking 25% off a ~220 yard carry with 236 to pin leaves 70 yards to the pin. So yeah, with Berger getting 97 yards to the pin after the drop I think he got a pretty bad deal - even with the 'compromise'.
People obviously cheer for Hovland but he's clearly in the wrong here. Placing it over the grass bunker is miles off and Berger would've lost like 80 yards on the drop.
Unless another player was standing right behind the player hitting the shot, the only player who really has the right perspective is the one who hit the shot and there is a certain amount of player integrity required in the game of golf. From the TV view of the tracker line, it looks like he should probably take the drop up where one begins to see the bulkhead again just past that rough area. That's just me, but the tracker shows quite a bit of left to right on the ball, so it crossed up there probably halfway to the green.
I like how they handled it professionally, really surprised they don’t have a rules official posted up to watch for these on the water holes in strategic locations, similar to why we put umpires on the field where we do and each have specific roles/responsibilities regarding what they look for. Time for golf to do the same
That course has water in play on 17 holes. It would be hard to have officials covering every shot that could potentially end in the water. If anything, they just need to lean on tech more and call into a "replay official" to track the shot tracer and figure out the best spot. Obviously, doesn't need to be perfect, just have a general idea when there's disputes
i always thought these big tournaments should have a referee with every group to watch and give their rulings
@@caseydant6536 considering how many staff and how much money is on the line, you can have a spotter on water duty at every hole, to simply watch for this exact thing. I don’t think the shot tracer is accurate enough and the accuracy drops with rain, moisture, wind etc
@@Natedoc808 I agree that they should should have people watching, and yes, in an ideal world that would be trained officials at all times. But they do have volunteers/ushers on each hole that should be watching each shot down the fairway. I just don't think that it's worth it to spend the money to train enough rules officials to cover each hole/group at every course or pay for that many to travel to every tournament. And again, the amount of times that rules officials are called in doesn't seem to justify the cost. Obviously, its not a perfect comparison, but when you think of the bird's eye view technology that tennis uses to review in/out rulings, you would think that golf could use more technology in these rulings and have one small team controlling that.
@@caseydant6536 it’s much easier to implement the motion capture tech on a small square, stationary controlled surface such as a tennis court. If people are willing to volunteer to usher, they would just as easily volunteer to be a designated spotter along water borders. It’s not that big of an ask. Either way these guys are pros and they have had this come up in many a private round and a large majority are honest golfers and play by the rules.
At the end, the drop looked fair. 2 vs 1 vote, Berger should take his pill and move on. But PGA should man a marshal in the areas like this where it can make calls in the future.
There are water hazards on practically every hole of this course. To put a marshal everywhere they would need to be to have a good angle to see any ball crossing a hazard line would be a fool's errand. The players can figure it out for themselves like they do in tournaments at every other level.
I'm revisiting this instance, but I'm wondering, is it a caddie etiquette to not get involved in these matters? Because I would think that Berger's caddie would confirm what he saw. Obviously a caddie is going to have a bias in favor of their player, but the manner and conviction in which the caddie backs it up would still tell a lot in my opinion and if their isn't an etiquette, then it says a lot that the caddie didn't back up Berger with a passionate confirmation.
I would say that Hovelands interview reveals a bit, because he claims Bergers shot was hit straight at the pin, which factually isn't true... if you imagine a shot tracker next to the tracker provided going straight at the pin with a slice, the shot tracker would look completely different (and I'm not blindly trusting the shot tracker, I/we can see the ball travel for the most important duration before the tracker takes over). Hoveland wasn't lying... I theorize Hoveland and Joels angle was just far enough ahead and to the left to where it hid the appearance of a fade shot from them... beginning left and going right, which at it's furthest point was 1/4 to 1/2 foot to the left of it's fairway placement with the hole being approx 15-20 feet to Bergers right as well. Joel/Hoveland just saw the ball going straight at the hole with a slice, which isn't true. Their angle hid the left to right break from them.
The artificial arial graphic at 7:10 is a bit deceptive. From that artificial perspective the hole appears to only be ever so slightly to Bergers right. If that arial view was accurate than our video coverage angle would be an illusion.
questions need to be asked on if hovland should be able to dictate the location of the drop when him & Berger are so closely in contention - surely this rule opens up situations for cheating
I still haven’t figured out what the rule is and how they determine
Shame there wasn't a camera angle. I don't believe players should be responsible for watching the opponents shots when they should be worried about calculating their next shot.
They already showed the shot tracer map on this. Dahmen and Hovland were basically spot on and Berger was being a whining baby and way off with his estimation.
If this was Tiger there’s no chance that Hovland and Daeman say anything.
No way man tiger flushes his 2nd shot 2 feet from the cup and the crowd erupts 10 times outta 10
Looking at the camera angle, the ball started just inside the lamppost, which was in line with the left 3rd of the 16th green. It was a fade/cut... I had it entering the hazard further forward than that grass mound/grass bunker, which Hovland said. I wouldn't have been happy either that someone on completely the wrong angle dragging me back 100yds to drop. 🤷♂️
Victor hovland is a class act he went by the rules and never blamed daniel it is what it is the rules are rules the integrity of the game is at stake. Just move on. It just happens.
With both parties in complete disagreement and the official on the scene unable to make a decision, why not have a rules official on stand - by to review video. In this case, instant replay for golf. In cases like this, if possible, put the responsibility of the decision on a rules official reviewing the video.
with modern Shot Tracer technology (there are a few of them) it should not be difficult to program the app to allow any shot to be viewed from any angle (even directly overhead and 100 yards forward). however the Shot Tracer software apps are simply not mature enough yet.
You claimed a fade, the replays clearly show a straight into a slice.
Hovland is wrong. Berger did not say "Water ball" immediately after he struck the ball. The ball was in the air for a while and clearly going hard right when Berger said it was going into the water. Also, if the shot tracer is reasonably accurate then Berger did start the ball well to the left of the flag. And that statement about protecting the field rings hollow. How about protecting fairness and accuracy? The person who had the best view of what the ball was actually doing was the person who hit the shot. And two other players who did not have an ideal view were allowed to force compromise over the player that did. If video can be used to determine that a player committed a rules infraction it certainly could have been used to prevent this travesty that has tarnished this year's Player's Championship. The rules official gets a big fail.
Hovland also said that it was a straight shot that cut at the end ... he was wrong about this, as well ... the tracer shows that it started at the left edge of the (huge) green and was cutting the whole time ... that's why he didn't say "water ball" until late in the shot ... it was actually over the fairway for a long time, and didn't cross anywhere near where Hovland was saying it did ...
assuming spin makes the ball travel in a circle (its pretty close afaia; the perceived straightness at the start is perspective error), and the ball started at the left edge of the fairway at the green + landed 3y into the water, it crossed just after the grass bunker. I checked it with google maps and MS paint.
The tangent at the point it crosses is nearly parallel to the shoreline so yeah, people were being forced to provide opinions on matters they couldn't possibly have enough information to comment on...hence the confusion.
I think the compromise was fair at the end of the day.
If u look at 4 seconds, which is prob where the ball crossed out. And look at 7.08 seconds. DBs ball was prob a little further ahead when it drifted out.
why can't they just have replay?
I have never watched an argument over a ball crossing the water hazard before, it’s very strange. The player who hit the shot needs to place the ball where they believe the ball went into the water. If they get penalized or disqualified, that’s on them not anyone in their group. It’s great to help but don’t forget about pace of play for each shot and the hole. Players are timed when playing golf in tournaments and they need to play faster, not slower.
I believe Camera angle will need be accounted on ruling. If other professional leagues is already doing it why not PGA.
First sure. Yet they will use the camera to punish players hours later for other things.
So based on video of shot I couldn't tell where it crossed .thought they had Marshall's in position to watch where it crosses ..I didn't realize without video evidence it's up to players to hash it out..
Looks to me like where he ended up dropping was actually pretty close.
Thats the best camera angle on that hole?
If you’re blaming your entire argument off of shot tracer, you’re wrong. The ball starts more middle of the green and cuts. I think both of them were slightly wrong, should’ve been moved up 10ish more yards IMO.
It's a real shame that the PGA has not found a way to address this problem yet. Obviously, the other 2 guys in the group benefit if they say his shot went out as far back as possible, so it is in their best interest to stick to their story. And it is obviously better for Berger to say his shot went out as close to the green as possible. For the rules official to come in and say "yall figure it out" is BS. 20 Million dollar purse and the rules official says "you do you boo." SMH
154 mph ball speed is 225.867 feet per second ball flight. The ball looked to cross into hazard precisely as the apex graphic was displayed 2.5 seconds later. 2.5 seconds of ball flight at 225.867 ft. per second is 451 ft. from where he teed off.
Now we need someone to verify with Google Earth or maps. Is that is where he dropped?
FYI , Parody
where is the shot from behing berger? they have the shot, why arent they showing it (and it shows Berger was correct)
stand corrected.. first second of the video
All good guys! Berger was right shoulda dropped around 60 yds across from tree. Ball started way left Victor had no idea bad angle. Can see big fade at end. Somewhere between 50 -75 yds. Berger right on. Ball started way left.
I feel like the rule should change to stop this. If you don’t hit land before it goes in the water. You play from the same spot you hit the ball from.
Amazing shot tracker technology exists and they don’t use it for this type of scenario.. looked like a slight fade to me and that it crossed further back
Watch the tracer I’m more on Berger’s side
Berger is definitely more right than Hovland and Dahmen. When you play 0.25 slow motion you can see the ball instead of just the tracer. The ball definitely started from left of the green. No way that ball was starting towards to the pin. It had a huge fade.
do you understand how the rule works? The ball gets placed where it crossed the hazard, which is not 30 yards short of the green, it was back farther than where they agreed to drop.
If they don't know, why doesn't he have to go back to the spot of his previous shot?
Tough call. Hopefully he's satisfied with the outcome
With the amount of people, inside the ropes and around these groups, you would think that an opinion outside of the players in the group would have been beneficial.
If they’re watching the ball from left side of shot don’t see how they can claim anything more definitive than Berger
It’s funny to see people taking shot tracers line as gospel, we see on a very regular basis that the shot tracers are misleading a lot of the time. Two pga pros that were both standing beside the person taking the shot and both had the same conclusion without discussing it. Berger tried to get away with one here and he got called out on it! He is starting to accumulate a reputation for it now imo.
they just dont like berger, obv it crossed where berger dropped it, hes a stickler for the rules