Making Big Bolts - Threading 3" Bars for Rock Crusher Bolts - Manual Machine Shop
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.พ. 2023
- Big jobs are what I like doing best. The bigger the part, the more I enjoy it. So, this job was something I really wanted to take on. This is from a new customer, and a while back I did some long threading of 2" bar stock for them as the test. Now, the big job of 3" bar stock came in for threading.
The first part was started by another shop and they couldn't quite do the job. Since they had started the thread, I had to locate and start cutting where they left off. This is something I have done for many years with great success. I hope you can learn from this process, I know it is difficult to see. That is the sucky part of doing these videos by myself, I can never get the camera where I want it.
The other end went well, and gave me a reference point to thread to. After that, the rest of them went quite well. Big threading takes a lot of horsepower, skill, and patience. I make it look easy, but it really isn't as easy as you may think. Years of experience and the proper equipment definitely help.
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A machine shop channel doing actual machining instead of shilling for 40 minutes. What a novelty!
So many variables in screw cutting threads, digging deep into the nomenclature for fits, and guages is mind boggling.
Many years ago, I came to screw a female rod end on a large hydraulic cylinder, circa 75mm, it was a very loose fit, totally unacceptable, the rod end was made in house, it had passed inspection, but the issue was the machine shop had made the male thread gauge, had it measured over wires etc, all okay, but they had missed that the point of the threading tool had broken off, so the root was way oversize, and consequently, all machined internal threads using this gauge were scrap. I think there were several rod ends made using this so called guage!, all built and shipped, expensive rectification, required send guys and new parts in Europe from the UK.
Proper sized threads Josh, warming the shop up a little.
Thanks for sharing.
Regards John
It's amazing the variables in threads and it gets worse when they come from China.
@@TopperMachineLLC. I always remember the Groucho Marx quote, "Those are my principles, if you don't like them...Well, I have others", works better changing to standards. Brilliant quotations yhim.
i remember when you had like 1000 subs, now you have enough to fill a football stadium, thanks for the content and keep up the great work and videos
Surprisingly it wasn't that long ago. Thanks for sticking with me.
I like big bolts, and I cannot lie!
Nice to see a guy take up where other's left off !
These repetitive jobs will make any person go nuts.
Yes they do, but they also pay good.
Pun intended
I saw what you did there. 👍🏼
But they only gave me one nut. I prefer having 2. Lol
No guarantee that the nuts they have are of the same fit grade if they are getting cheap mass cast. There still is potential that they might need the nuts touched up to fit the bolts. I’m glad at the end you were a bit worried about the depth of that thread, at the college I always grit my teeth when some of the depths start gripping a bit too much. Always makes me want to change the lead to 59 or even 58. My teeth gritted hard when I heard the bar and bit groan on that last thread. Are you using carbide or ground HSS or Cobalt? I’ve found on the manuals a jig grind on cobalt lasts longer and doesn’t break as bad, but I really like carbide two sided multi thread single point for semi-CNC work with a tool room lathe. I always end up going about .005” undersize for Max Major before cut, seems to reduce issues in bigger threads, but you might get some one barking about tolerance and fit grade >.>
Missed opportunity for a Big Johnson race team tshirt in the back of this shot, lol!
I remember making one of those just like that . Another day another dollar.
As a gravel train driver in Michigan, i can say rock crushers take a beating ❤😊
On a large thread turn the O.D. down about .010 and then thread makes fitting easier.
wonderful video Josh,,,,,,,your friend in Central Florida, Paul
I like to use a cutting oil on my threads, I find it makes a better finish and better tool life.
Remember my employer ordering over cut nuts to fit over size threads on large threaded rods, already installed.
A machinist on another forum that does work on big boat parts said that they make those large nuts because the quality is so bad. I think he said 2" and larger.
Probably have to justify the costs for the customer to eliminate any rework of out of tolerance parts.
Keep the "real" machining videos coming Josh.
Joe
We actually have big taps on hand to run through nuts just to make sure
Josh, as a constructive suggestion, slip the nut over the head of the live center. Saves time and moving the tailstock each time. I've done it many times
I would have if it fit.
Enjoyed the video. Keep on keeping on.
You have sir a very nice shop. Not only that you are quite adept. Hood on yuh!👊
Pretty cool seeing those big threads cut. I always record my measurements after getting a successful thread so its much faster the next time. After you made the first thread work so nicely you should just note the measurements on your digital and compound. Also that looks like a really nice lathe...so smooth.
lovely video, cheers from down in Florida, Paul
maybe the cure for the nuts id have machine shops like your to produce them
Cost. That is the only reason they buy Chinese junk.
Hi Josh, first of all I complement you on the cleanliness of this part of your shop, well done.
This job is as impressive as can be, the heavy turning, the effort and the amount of pieces
makes some serious machining. well done sir!
Nice camera placings good lighting and sound, and excellent editing.
Chris.👍
The entire shop has been going through a thorough cleaning and organizing the last few months. Many upgrades coming as well.
My personal experience on big threads is that if you start with the OD being the max thread diameter then turn till you first get a sharp top then knock the top off with a file or a light turn pass I usually get a good fit. It seems most materials usually wind up turning up or reforming a bit of a top burr when threading so knocking that off is a lot of times necessary to get a good fit as it isn't the side to side where it is tight its on top/in the root. Most threads are cut 80% or less anyway so the top normally is supposed to come off some. Just a quick way to get real close by eye that works for me. Looks like you got them fitting good!
That's what I've seen too on some of these large ones.
@@TopperMachineLLC Store the nut on the tailstock quill as you are checking fitment. You don't have to keep backing off the tailstock every time you want to check it.
p.s. Excellent work, great videography and nice clean shop!
I was kinda thinking the same thing in the beginning. Making sure you start with the correct O.D. on the shaft before you start threading. I'm sure it would be difficult to determine that from the nut somehow. Either way it worked out here and good job. Like both your guys videos learn a lot thanks!
@@Watchyn_Yarwood 16:56 it’d get in the way of the cross slide.
Great stuff! Keep it up!
I no longer use the compound for single point threading, just the cross slide. In using the compound you end up with a ragged right hand side of the thread (as viewed in an optical comparator) and use the cross slide to clean that up in the spring pass(es) anyway.
The threads come out gage perfect as well as fitting the matching female thread. I still take a file to the crest of the threads to remove any raised burr.
I use a combination of the two on these big threads. It gives me a better finish and longer tool life.
I find that on big threads like a "4" there is so much tool pressure using the cross feed only that the tool breaks more often.
That's ok as long as your machine has the horsepower to cut the thread on both sides of the tool. In large threads that equates to an enormous amount of material being removed at each pass, and as you get deeper the more material you take out as the vee gets wider. I bet if it was calculated a compound only cut will use4 0-50% less horsepower needed to cut the thread. Ok for industry, but these days there are not so many old machines capable of producing big threads out there. I bet that was the problem with the previous shop that tried to cut the original thread, and they ran out of horsepower to finish the job. If they couldn't do one end, then they had no chance of doing the rest.
Gotta love big threads, the last time I did on that big was a drain plug for a 50's Jaguar petrol tank. Made it to spec and guess what, I had to "refine" it to make it fit but no tank to test it to. The phase " hit and hope " comes to mind.
Don't use the compound slide anymore either. NOW.....If you turn your tool bit over, run the spindle in reverse, You can start near the headstock and feed left to the tailstock. simple old toolroom trick. cleaner looking job. try it, you'll like it!
Great shtuff.....Please don't change a thing in the way you make these vids. Soo many times we see the person get a big head and steer the attention to be all about them & NOT the content. Then others who think all the fancy camera shtuff is better.
In one sense you are lucky that you have some klutzy machine shops in your area that in essence "refer" customers to you. I'd imagine as a machinist you could go through a lot of years without threading any 4" bolts and thus would not have that wisdom coming from experience that bolts and nuts of that size are not always dead-on to spec from the book. Nice video, Josh!
We just did a job with 1 3/4" studs and nuts. Had to run a tap down every nut to get them to work
Glad to hear how common it is. Not happy that it is a problem.
There's just something so satisfying about seeing a machine tool whittling away. I always enjoyed working manually operated tools rather than CNC. Not unlike the difference in the Full Self Driving farce vs driving oneself. I much prefer operating my own machinery and getting the enjoyment therefrom.
back in the late 70'sI was working for a guy in a 2 mn shop as a Tool and Die Maker. had to Drill a number of 1&3/8" Flat bottom Spring pockets. We did not have a Drill and my boss sent me next door to borrow one from these guys running a 2 man Turning operation. Well I walk up behind the one guy to ask about the drill. As I approached him I started to ash then see he's Threading a Lrge NU like You had there. I backed off. He looked at me over his Right Shoulder and asked You here for that 1&3/8 Drill. I just backed up and apologized for the interruption. While Cutting the Tread (With out missing a CUT he reached down grabbed the Drill handed it to me and Kept rights on cutting the Thread Just admired his skill.
A 3" bar needs to machined to size, before, a thread can be single point cut with the inserts that you are using, applies to any thread. Try full full form inserts.
I am not a machinist. I think it is so cool that you were able to fix a mistake made by someone else. I am sure that you saved the customer a lot of money because they did not have to buy another piece of steel. I thought that threads were a one pass deal. I did not know that they could be done in multiple passes. You did a great job on the video and solving a big problem for your customer. I think it is incredible that you took on the job because you knew that large nut thread could be problematic. God sure has gifted you with a lot skill.
Smaller threads are often cut in one pass with special die heads and plenty of lubricant. Threads this size, unless in very high production, are usually machined in multiple passes and fitted to matching nuts.
If there is such inconsistency in those large nuts, how do you know the "test" nut is representative of the whole lot? All my threading is on a much smaller scale and I've just never thought about that kind of variability.
The customer understands the risk and said they would pay for any recuts.
I thought for sure the story was going to end with the nut being an M75-6 or something like that but you got it fitting so nice there was just no question.
Thanks for all the great content, It's a pleasure to watch and listen to.
LoL the machining side of my shop is still pretty new, I'd settle for getting it done any which way 😁
Great to see what you are up to this week. Those are sure big nuts, I don't remember tightening anything that large very often !
I recommend stepping up to at least a 3/8" drive set....😄
Surely you were dialed in on the first , why not thread to that spec ?
I take it those bolts were not for a wristwatch, lol. Great video Josh, keep'um coming..
Or, the giants of old are back!
Great work! Your videos are getting better every time I watch them.
Josh,
That job would have been a PIA without that LION lathe....was hearing the whoomp whoomp bogging also.......excellent job matching what cobbed up thread job they 1st put on that shaft, sorta looked like they might have even tried to cut with an ACME cutter not the 60 standard.....at least the shaft wasnt some hard alloy and complicate the job...seemed like 1018. to me.....as always you did a great job not only w the machining but the presention/teaching and the production of the vid......keep up the good work !!!!!!!! Crazy crazy winter for sure......lol
Don
Thank you for all of the education. Hope to be as good as you one day
Nice work.
Looks like you got those whipped and the Lion can eat. Be glad they were RH threads on both ends. Is that Lion lathe a gap bed?
I don't do a ton of left hand threads, but they really are no problem. Actually kind of fun. It is a gap bed.
Was the nut too small to fit over the live center so you didn't have to move the tail stock every time?
In this case, yes. It wouldn't fit over my live center.
NICELY DONE
I meant, good on yuh!
Great video as always Josh, thank you for uploading! 👍👍
Nice.
Those big threads and nut are cool. I don't think we even have a tool that would fit that nut
It makes a guy wonder if the customer gets another/new batch of nuts, will they fit the same on the shafts you threaded? Or will each new parts batch of nut need custom threaded shafts. Or is it as bad as every nut need to be custom fit?
The consistency of nuts over 1-1/2" has been terrible. The customer supplied the test nut and they were all checked to that nut. They already suggested paying for any rework due to nut inconsistency. I always bring these issues up when doing bigger stuff.
@@TopperMachineLLCsounds like they might have to buy a big tap to chase their nuts into consistency?
@@d6joe was suggested.
Thanks Josh, another great video of quality craftsmanship! Keep them coming,
Hey Josh,
The video and audio quality has increased 100% lately. Great! Love your videos, even tho I'm not a machinist, I learn a lot watching these vids.
Cheers.
It has been quite a major problem figuring out the audio stuff. Basically I can't have the software updates for the GoPro. Someday I'll get better quality cameras, as these GoPro's are cheap junk.
@@TopperMachineLLC Remember that the higher the quality of the video, the larger the file and the longer it takes to upload. The existing quality is acceptable and in any case, I am restricted to 720P with our slow internet!
Very good job and thanks for sharing.
Shop is looking great JT. Why would anyone in your area try to get something machined correctly anywhere but Topper Machine. Shame on them. Just bring the job to you in the first place and know it's going to be done right. Good work Josh. Thanks for the video.
Thanks. We spent a lot of time cleaning and organizing. More to do, but it feels good.
Great content and production quality. Shop is looking tight 👍🏻
Josh I just had a epiphany. Never thought of the origin of "chasing a thread". I just used a tap, die or thread file as needed. But I see that is what you do on a lathe to "catch the original thread".
just yesterday I had to repair a hydraulic cylinder rod. the threads galled when I removed the nut so I cut down 1 3/4" to 1 1/2-12. the new nut would barely start so I kept making passes and when I got even deeper than I thought I should be I went and got a different nut and it spun right on. A little more loose fit than I would like but at least I didn't ruin the shaft. I checked the other nut that was in the same package same thing, wouldn't fit. I don't know why but we are going to give them back to the supplier and let them find out why they don't fit.
Wow that was a bit of 'massive' Are You sure about the internal threaded nut? Like these videos ;-))
Anything over 1-1/2" has been a crap shoot the last several years.
Nice work you are good at what you do 👍
Great video! I love single point threading.. it's very satisfying...
I had no idea you were a watch maker as well.
some great machining there and particularly liked the explanations.
New Sub!
G’day Josh. Good work on those big threads mate. You must be loving that new lathe of yours. Cheers 🍻 Aaron
Nice lathe! I'd like to have one. Because I get bit from time to time, I'd be screwing that nut all the way on and off each thread just because.
The 4 inch rods used to hold the wear liners in the Texas Shredder were 4 inch with a 4 TPI thread. They tended to break in the thread. When they broke, the liner they went through would have to be replaced because they would be bent enough so the rod couldn't be replaced without replacing the liner. It was also difficult to get the 4 TPI nuts tight, even using a hydraulic wrench. The 4 TPI threads reduce the minor diameter 3/4 of an inch. We started having our own rods built with Standard 8 -UN TPI. They didn't break and were much easier to get tightened. They are also much easier for a machine shop to thread and the liners could be used for a much longer time.
I would offer that your experience mentioned relates directly to a finer thread having more holding power.👍
As a conventional machinist, i really enjoy your video's and even learning something watching them.
Keep it up!
Wow, 14 of them. That is a lot of work. I used to build turnkey rock crushing plants many years ago. Heavy stuff. Good job!
If the nut is not correct, why not increase the nuts threads to fit a properly machined shaft ? That will make stronger parts.
Nice work, in the toolroom and different workshops over the years we never used the compound.
only had it at an angle for clearance reasons some times. We did work for Marconi avionics EEV
Lucas CAV fuel injection in the UK.
It is not done on internal threading with the compound half way just the cross slide as you will end up in a right mess.
Did you measure it to see how undersized it may be? There is no gage better than the nut going on it. I spent 30 years as a machinist. 20 of if programing large cnc lathes.
You commented on the quality of the nuts relative to their source. I wonder how consistent the threads are from nut to nut. Will they all fit the threads you are cutting? That is something the customer will find out. Interesting video. I have about 2 weeks of machine shop experience from a class 50+ years ago. It is still fun to watch. Thanks for a good video.
Just wondering if the material diameter is consistent enough to just cut the same depth on each one?
Nice job. I wonder if you have the clearance on the tailstock center,to allow you to put the nut on the tailstock or center so,you don’t have to move the tailstock back each time,to check the fit.
I don't. My center is too big.
Another silly comment,
Enlarge your shop sticker on the safety shield and move it close to the edge to get it completely into the video
Is your live center binding some, or just not tight into the part? It looked like it was slipping on the second end.
Joe pie raised a great point ……… why does everyone thread towards the headstock?? Couldn’t you flip that tool upside down and cut even this big thread in reverse?? What was that for BTW? Great job! ✌️💖&💡
I had to think about this for a while but I think I figured it out. Depending on the ways of the lathe, you can't pull up on the tool post, only push down!
Someone let me know if I'm wrong tho!
@@GordonTurnerr You can thread away from tailstock using left-hand toolholders on the back of the work, with reversed spindle rotation. This pushes down on the carriage like with right hand-turning.
@@RichardKinch makes sense!
Great video as always
Just curious, the magnetic light seems to have a very yellow hue, maybe swap out for more of a bright white light to improve video quality?
Thanks for posting these videos
I've been meaning to finding a different bulb for it because it is quite overpowering. Someday, when there is some free time.
If the nuts are not all cut to size by the book, don't you have to match each nut to it's rod?
Pretty much. There is some risk in the way we did it, but that was the costumers request.
I find the process of cutting threads on a lathe to be fascinating. I am guessing the machine's computer knows how to match rotational speed to the feed rate of the tool. What really stumps me is how it knows exactly where to begin cutting on each subsequent pass. If the cutter isn't lined up with the thread starting point, it's going to tear up the previous cuts. So how does it know? And how did you do it prior to digital measurement?
Nothing digital about it Back when or now. The driving lead screw has a worm gear running on it with a pointer showing its relative position. Look up thread chasing dial for more info on how it works.
How are you hitting the tread exit in exactly the same spot every time? No thread relief? Love your videos!
Years of practice. The part would be weakened with a thread relief.
Is it considered a cut or a scrape? Ty
Josh, I have seen you do a number of videos on cutting threads on a lathe. This was probably the best. I have always wondered how you get the cut to start at the same angle on the piece as it is rotating around? The tool obviously has to end up following the thread you cut before.
One of my earlier videos show how I engage the feed nut to get the same starting point.
@@TopperMachineLLC I have it now. The thread dial runs off the lead screw so if you engage on the same number every time it puts the tip of the cutter in the bottom of the vee of the thread. Does the Lion lathe engage the cutter automatically or is it still manual?
@@RCRadioShow Still all manual. I hate automatic anything. Can't trust them.
@@TopperMachineLLC All our cars have a manual transmission!
@@TopperMachineLLC I suppose it depends on the spindle speed and the pitch of the thread. I can see where you would prefer manual control over engaging the cutting tool.
You could have used wires after the first couple to get a base dimension.
Once I got the first one done, I had my base line and just went to that each time. Then fine tune to finish.
Excellent job, Josh. 16 of those studs is a lot of work. How long did it take?
2 days, but not full days. There are always other things to sneak into the day.
@@TopperMachineLLC That also breaks up the monotony of the same thing time and time again.
Another video where I realise "I need a bigger lathe"...:)
I have seen you use your 3 jaw a couple times now and I wonder how you maintain your concentricity? is your 3 jaw just a very good quality? does perfect concentricity not matter so much for these applications? I'm relatively new to machining and just a curious, cheers
I don't buy cheap chucks. 3 jaw chucks have a life span before they need to be replaced. A cheap one will go maybe a year, a good one can be 5-10 years. You get what you pay for.
Nice job sir ! I do the same thing with big threading jobs like this, i rough them out with a 30 degree turning tool, CNMT i believe the insert is. It takes a lot more abuse then my threading tool. Quick question, how has that lathe been for you ? It looks like a nice smooth, solid machine.
That is a great suggestion. I actually considered it. The Lion has been one of my best business decisions. Definitely a great machine.
We use Dnmg inserts
Great suggestion X2 goes to show a old dog can always learn a new trick
Was told as an a apprentice the day you think you know everything is the day you should quit being a Machinist because you're ego has surpassed your skill or Brain or something along that line. I wish I could remember all of the old one liners i was told. But that was 30 years ago
@@basbh1782 ego has ruined many great people and almost all of the younger generations. I'll be the first to admit I don't know anything, and am always trying to learn more.
So I am wondering about thread and material strength here. I am going to make a few assumptions here, as a starting point. Those being That this is likely for a train or some other big heavy, and old piece of industrial equipment. So the questions is this, Do you think the material quality these days is better than say 60 years ago? (admittedly this could be a tough one, as we built some amazingly high quality metals for ww2 battle ships and the space programs) With the quality of the material possibly being better, does that make up for this being a cut thread vs a rolled thread? With both of those being considered. Does the newly manufactured fastener end up strong, weaker or equivalent to the original? What are peoples thoughts on this?
In the last 60 years there has been no significant change to mild steel. This one here is thought to be 1018 or 1045= Low to mid carbon steel. It's the same stuff as 60-70 years ago. Yes there are other alloys available but this is not one of them. Generally if you increase the tensile strength of the material, the fastener strength increases about the same percentage. Rolled threads do increase the tensile strength of screws but the main benefit is the increase in fatigue strength/life. Fatigue is the #1 enemy and it attacks at the surface of the root. That is why UNJ threads are used in critical applications.
@@billshiff2060 thanks for the info, i appreciate it
Which steel was it? I'd have to assume some kind of abrasion resistant stuff.
Nice threads. I usually overshoot it.
Mystery metal. They couldn't even tell me the grade. I'm guessing either 1018 or 1045. But I could be wrong.
It sounds a bit like 1055,studs this size are either 4140 or 1055 in general industry
@@Realtime1501 I even asked for a spec, but they didn't have anything. I could probably save them time and money by ordering the material for them next time.
Very nice work, having the tools is one thing, knowing how to use them correctly is what separates the pros from the wannabees. Thanks for the great video.
If you move your compound in .005" then you're also moving -X- too, so wouldn't you loose your chase?
Yes, confuses me too. But I'm no machinist.... Aside from being TH-cam certificated ☺
Maybe a dumb ? But do u have to support the work piece that sticks out of the backside other lathe .. like I saw u pull the thread piece threw the back hole and turn it around I didn't notice anything...
Depends on how much I stick out. Sometimes yes, and I have bushings for the spindle hole for support. Generally if it is inside the spindle tube I don't support it. If it's a few inches out the back then I do.
hey Josh, any idea on what alloy the bar stock is...thanks, Paul
Not a clue. I asked the customer and they had no idea. Guessing probably 1018 or 1045. But leaning more towards 1018.
does the nut fit over your live center? if so you can leave it over the center whilst thread cutting so you dont have to pull the tail stock everytime you check the threads
No, It does not.
@@TopperMachineLLC looked close, hard to tell on the youtubes! saw Cutting egde engineering do it with gland nuts for hydraulic shafts, it was one of those "oh duh" moments
@@DontCallMeGarage It was close, probably 0.010" I have done it a million times with other jobs that do fit.
signed in just to sub your channel keep the videos coming!!!!
Thank you.
That must have been tricky, chasing that existing thread to cut it correctly without destroying it.
Not at all. I do this kind of stuff all the time.
Right on.
What size is the threading insert for those large threads?
I use the top notch inserts from toolflo. They come from KBC Tools. They are the No. 4. I think FL4 from KBC. But I could be wrong. I have a spreadsheet with the info so I don't have to remember it.
I see you didn't cut a relief for the thread so you were pulling the tool out before hitting the end of the thread. How did you avoid breaking the carbide single point doing this? I mean you'd have to pull it out at the perfect place every time right? I'm just getting back into hobby machining after 40 years and learning about this new fangled carbide tooling.
Good quality tooling and a lot of years of practice.
I was wondering the exact same thing. You could see him watching the DRO in the one camera angle. But it wouldn't take much to have an oopsie. Especially towards the end when that insert is 1/4" deep 😂
Always nice to watch a true master at their craft!
Doesn't your DRO tell you how deep to cut - when you might close?
Yes it does, once you have a reference point. Since these were the first ones of unknown quality, I had to find that depth.