Modifying the Output Shaft on a Crankshaft - Turning A Taper & Cutting a Woodruff Key
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ส.ค. 2023
- I do not do engine work, but this guy was desperate. What can I say, I felt bad for him and did it anyway.
This was a crankshaft out of a V4 Wisconsin engine in an old skid steer loader. His replacement was out of another motor he had, and didn't realize the output shafts were different. After he had been to several other shops around the region, he found me.
The old Monarch lathe has the best taper attachment I have ever used, and I am very familiar with its setup and operation. Watch as I modify this crankshaft to fit his application.
As a public service, I feel it is my duty to let you all know that skid steers are really a completely useless and underpowered machine. For far less money, you can have a wheel loader. They have a much higher lifting capacity, are easier to drive, and generally have heated cabs. I personally will never own a skid steer. Take it from a very experienced equipment operator, don't waste your money on skid steers.
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This crankshaft came out of a 610 Melroe Bobcat. There is no center main on the crank so it’s understandable how it’s slightly bent without being noticed. Agreed they should have still noticed it tho.
We greatly appreciate your work as the taper and the keyway weren’t something my husband could do (he is an ASE Certified Engine Machinist).
BTW- your Customer (76 years old) was very happy you were able to do this for him 💕 He has had that skid loader for about 35 years with the same motor. Now he can run it again.
Glad I could help. I really felt bad for him. Hard spot to be in.
There's no way the shop that did the grinding didn't notice the shaft was bent, they probably just didn't say anything so they could get paid, no scruples.
Great video like always Josh, thank you for uploading. 👍👍
I'm surprised that crankshaft machined as easy as it did. I was expecting something much harder. This was one job that I was nervous for you from start to finish. Great job with it Josh
There was considerable pucker factor on this one.
The crankshaft was probably nodular iron which provides very good bearing surfaces and is relatively easy to machine.
For as much as you complained about the issues, you aced it! Beautifully done.
Nice job Josh.
I do agree that the Crankshaft grinder should have caught the bent shaft.
But you did a good repair.
Thanks for sharing.
Have a great day. 👍
The engine shop either missed it or didn't care, likely the latter.
To be honest, you got bit by yourself by not checking the piece beforehand.
You got it figured out, and it turned out excellent! I'm glad you are passing your knowledge on to the next generation.
Who would have thought it would have been bent. I never even considered it. I don't do enough engine work to know these things.
@@TopperMachineLLC You do now! I have learned in my 59 years, to assume nothing. especially with things that someone else worked on or is used. From the sad but true department comes this... Even new stuff can be messed up from factory or shipping goons. Gotta check things...everytime.
I can't argue that at all! It's probably an error that I and many others would make also.
@@TopperMachineLLC
You are a undisputed machine shop hero today. Thanks for the video keep on keeping on.
Great job on the crank. I love your videos because I ran a lot of the machinery doing the same type of repairs that you do. During my apprenticeship our shop tech instructor was a tool and die maker and always said “ Nothing is chiseled in stone. “ So ignore the negative comments. Everyone will have different methods, the end result is important. Good stuff.
Not a machinist, but I find your content inherently interesting. Keep up the great work bro!
Glad you enjoy it!
I feel the same way!!!!
You have a good heart Josh. Nice job as always. I am learning great info and appreciate it very much. Thank you.
Great content. Thank you for helping to save another old Melroe 600 or 610.
For me it's not about utility it's about proving to myself that I can take a really old piece of equipment and make it usable again.
This was actually an old Gehl.
I recognize that pulley any day. It's out of a Bobcat loader. I grew up working on them and operating them as a kid in my father's shop and on the farm.
It's out of an old Gehl machine.
Crankshafts are either forged and basically made from rock, so they will break all of your bits. Or they are cast but hardened and basically made from glass filled with peanut butter, and will break all of your bits.
Lol, it wasn't that bad. I've turned way harder stuff.
Did one about 20 years ago, I was 38 years old, just use your skills! I do have an old skid steer. It has the kohler engine in it.
another great video, kept me glued to screen from start to finnish. Thanks for taking the time.
This job really did not bit you in the butt, but it gave you an opportunity to straighten out a bent shaft - I'd say that was a win-win in my book! Thanks for sharing!
Always enjoy watching your methods. Thank You
A lot of good instructional tips. Thanks for making these videos.
Great work - appreciate you sharing it. I picked up some great set up ideas and techniques from this video. Cheers. 👍👍
Thanks for showing us how to produce A class work every time.
Makes you wonder if the journals are right. It turned soft so i could under stand why it was bent.ANOTHER GREAT JOB.
Excellent job, Josh.
Josh, yes I did enjoy your crank shaft. And you did well!! Especially putting a taper on the crank. Excellent....
Thanks 👍
Pretty cool sir, when I seen the old school Wisconsin crank shaft it took me back about 40 years when I was a young man on the farm. We had several of those old air cooled engines . Great job too!
A most impressive repair and taper. Really interesting.
Great work Josh!
Working on stuff other shops have worked on is always a gamble, you threw aces! You have great content that is so relateable. Great video and we are always learning new way of skinning a cat!
I just bought a lathe wanting to be like you. It's sorta fun hunting all the parts needed to get it going...almost there. In the mean time, I have a good time disassembling & cleaning all the parts that actually lets me learn everything about it.
Great Work You Do Thanks For Helping That Guy Out
Glad to help
This is the exact job they got me into machining. Had an old bobcat 610 that needed an engine. A local guy attempted the exact modification as you did, but ended up with about .100” runout on the taper. Picked up an old atlas lathe and redid it myself. As the crank was forged, it was possible to build up with weld And remachine. Both machines are long gone and upgraded along the way, but that’s where it started! Thanks for sharing
always great content Josh, cheers from Florida, Paul
Really nice work a pleasure to watch video Thanks.
Well done Josh, you did exactly what I would have done. Cheers Ian - New Zealand
Great job I remember years ago parts were difficult to find for Wisconsin engines so I take it that is why he didn’t try finding the proper crank thanks for sharing
The proper one to use is extremely hard to find considering they were only used in Bobcat and likely were used and abused and fell the same fate. Improvising was a better option considering he had an old Owatonna Swather on the farm
Good job indeed. Thanks for uploading this video.
This was a very interesting project and it was great that it turned out well
Great job. As aggravating as this piece was..... based on other videos, it does seem like you enjoy challenging work!
I am the only shop in the area left that does real work, so I see a ton of odd and complex work. This was actually a fairly easy one.
I bet you will get a lot of Wisconsin Engine people sending you their stuff ;)
Very cool technique with the steady rest.
Thanks 👍
Excellent job Josh, I don't like working on engine parts either but sometimes it pays, lol, great video, keep'um coming..
It's leaving a lot better than it came in Josh, guessing after this video, you'll be getting more requests for automotive work 😮😊.
Great job, and video.
Thanks for sharing
I sure hope not. Lol
An excellent job due to good thinking, expertise and past experience.
Thank you very much!
Josh,
Ya did it again, great job !!!! That start on the interupted cut on that hardened shaft had my pucker factor on HI.....Your taper attachment saved the day, that and your attention to the fine details. Raining here again/still.....things aren't rusting, they are friggin molding....LOL....12 cord of firewood and can't even get em dry enuf to stack to dry !!!!
Don
The tail shaft wasn't that hard. I'm guessing just the journals were hard. But it came out good.
We've been getting some rain, but nowhere near enough. Hopefully we don't get dumped on this winter again. Don't think I can take that again.
"LIKE" button has been torqued to the manufacturer's recommended specification. "CLICK".
God forbid you should be running around with a loose "LIKE" button !
Thanks for sharing. Engines are fickle.
GREAT JOB! Machinists and machines helped build this country and will sustain it. Video is proof of that
Crank alterations are difficult. You can make the whole assembly much more solid by installing a bolt and nut as a jacking screw opposite the big end journal's. That way when you put pressure on from the tailstock it doesn't deflect it. You can also use four jaw chuck and throw chuck end off and just get final journal and portion next to live centre running true. You have done an amazing job.
Nice save!👍👍
Josh them same customers that acted like they did come pay your bill time are the very reason why machine shops pass on jobs. Good luck in the future.
Well done sir....well done.
Nicely done josh Your right always more work than you think and usually high risk just to get the original work done 👍👍👍
Not only that, but it always brings in the cheapest people. I now just tell people I'm not an automotive machine shop and therefore don't have the tooling and equipment. Then they like to argue that it's only a 10 minute job. But it's the 2-3 hours of setup they don't want to pay for. Not worth my time. But this was kind of an exception. No automotive machine shop would be able to handle this.
Great work and the price was decent (although the 76 year old customer doesn’t realize inflation has happened lol)
Very interesting Josh ! I was right there with you-- watching from BERMUDA lol
Taper attachment runs nice and smooth
I completely rebuilt it several years back. I got in a quote for a big taper job and decided I'd better go through it. I got the job, and got very good at using the taper attachment.
You did very good. Super💯
Nice work
Beautiful repair!
i have had guys with this exact job come to me, they want it done perfectly for pennies!
That is exactly the problem with engine work. I almost always refuse and refer them to the closest automotive machine shop.
Really good content thanks for sharing! But I know how aggravating it is I had one that I did awhile back.experience is the best teacher!
Take on jobs we KNOW we shouldn't take on. And then take them again the next time they come around... Small business life.
You have great editing on your videos. Keep up the good work.
Nice save
In this kind of work I find it rare that things go like they should. There always seems to be something that comes up
Good job on crank modification, I bet that crank is out of a vf4d Wisconsin engine in a 610 Bobcat skid loader. Worked on them when dinosaurs roamed the earth. What you did is the only thing that can be done because Wisconsin has been out of business for awhile.
It was a Gehl skid steer. The best option was to buy a wheel loader and fork the skid steer into the scrap dumpster.
@@TopperMachineLLC Sometimes the correct fix isn't the repair.
nice work...and I suspect it was not too easy to find out where the part was bent...glad it was only on the end you could cut off though, that doesn't happen too often.
Thanks for sharing
I got lucky on this one. So did the owner for that matter.
@@TopperMachineLLC absolutely that could have been a really expensive problem ..
You make it look easy ! 😁.
I would have started the tap in the end of the shaft while the steady rest was in place using a spring-loaded center in the tailstock to guide the tap. Other than that, I was impressed with your approach and the results you got. I always enjoyed using the taper attachment on the Cincinnati tray top I worked with years ago.
I felt far safer just hand taping. Last thing you want is a broken tap at this point of the job.
Good job on solving a problem. Screw the clever keyboard ninjas.
Those who hate are jealous they could never do this work.
Hello Josh, Enjoy your down home approach to machining, Adam from Abom79 has been using Anchor Lube for a few years now with great success, Bob A.
Thanks. I just discovered it and am extremely impressed.
Old mechanical skid steers are starting to be worth money in some places.
That is because the new ones are serious money. I don't like them, but I guess it's better than a shovel and wheelbarrow.
Well done on the edge of my seat all the way
I'd like to see that back in the crank grinder. Its probably close enough for low rpm this thing runs but it has to be off.
Nice job.
Thanks!
It is a bugger when you get caught up in something, not even in a nightmare could you envisage. I find that playing at home that happens rather frequently, I am always looking for the circling Blue Bird of Happiness. Rather good save... Goodonya
Wondering if part of your walk is from the balance. Had a similar problem a few years ago, indicated in fine but after cutting it was out about 9 tenths. Ended uo putting bob weights on the journals and it cut fine. Love your stuff, especially the giant sawr blade!
It was definitely bent. He has it back together and it runs like a champ.
Place a shim between the live center and the shaft center. A triangle shim cut to 30 degs works good.
You can get the tir to .001 or less.
GREAT JOB SIR HAPPINESS
ASK WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO MAKE ANOTHER TRAINS VIDEO
Due to the threads received from the Federal Railroad Administration, it will not be likely.
There always has to be Mr. Negativity posting snarky comments. Please ignore and keep posting GREAT videos.
Thank you. I just need to remember that the negative comments are from people who are jealous.
Josh you are good at what you do I love machine work between you and CEE and Keith rutger I love these videos abom 79 went Hollywood what ever happened to Keith fenner from cape cod
Keith Fenner is still active. Just more so on another platform.
Комментарий в поддержку канала и ролика, а также труда мастера....
hello josh it's is randy and i like yours video is cool thanks josh friends randy
Thanks
I know that crankshaft, mine is out of a 610 Bobcat, the engine was locked up all 4 cyls and broke every stud that held the heads down. I made a drill bushing for the studs and got all of them out, was able to knock out all 4 pistons and reuse them knurling the skirts, I aggressively honed the cylinders to .010 oversize and file fit a new set of rings to the cylinders. This was done over about a month. Got it back together and have been using it since 2012. Does not use any oil and runs perfectly. The only way this was possible was that I have a machine shop in my basement. These are things you do for yourself, this machine was junk before it got to me.
I have been a home shop machinist for many years. I have made antique car parts, repaired them, designed and built cyclecars. And I have turned tapers on crankshafts. I don't have any problems with customers who want auto parts machined! Learn by your mistakes and don't blame them on others and you will do a better job and become a more accomplished machinist. I still like your videos, keep it up.
The problem isn't the work. It's the fact that the customer thinks I can do it cheaper than an automotive machine shop with their specialized equipment. Engine machining is totally different in tools and equipment. Something I have none of, nor do I want it. I am a professional shop doing industrial work, far from a hobbyist. When you're doing this for a living, a 20 minute job at the engine machine shop can be a 3 hour job at a regular machine shop. The customer doesn't want to pay that difference, and I don't want to waste my time on a underpaying job.
I have no problem doing engine work on steam engines or prairie tractors pre 1930, but again that's a whole different thing.
It may have bit you, but you bit right back! You’re a skilled dude. Don’t sell yourself short. You did a good job, buddy.
I appreciate that!
Second time you've mentioned Anchorlube...been using Tap Magic for stuff like this and it does smoke! Guess I need to try some green goop instead!
Good stuff
Very nice job. That old Monarch with taper attachment is a wonderful machine.
Do they run that VH4D (or whatever) on propane? I love my old Wisconsin AGNDs and others, but an Isuzu diesel would be a better choice.
Just gas. Hardly anyone uses propane unless inside a industrial plant.
@@TopperMachineLLC Right. Makes sense, thanks.
Dear Mr.Topper, it seems at some point in time, you got spooked with auto parts machining. Machining a part is machining a part, auto or not. Hang in there. New viewer, like your videos.
The problem is never the work. It is the customer of engine work. That is why I almost always refer them on to automotive machine shops.
That certainly was a tricky job, but you nailed it. I'm really wondering what was wrong with the old crankshaft that it needed to be replaced.
He spun a bearing, and just decided to have this one ready to go before tearing it down. Once he tore it down, he found the shafts were different.
The keyway for the flywheel on the Bobcat crank worked loose and got all tore up. 35 years of just him running it wasn’t bad to just finally let go right!?
@cylheadman was it a spun bearing on the swather engine then? It has been a while and I know i have details messed up. I could have sworn he said it was a Gehl skid steer also. I need to start writing these details down.
@@TopperMachineLLC it was a spun bearing on the bobcat. The Swather was fine and a decent donor.
He probably rattled so many names and points in time. He never had a Gehl but they took Wisconsin engines so maybe he was rattling a list. He’s not the easiest 76 year old to follow 😂
@11:56 ... I've been called out before, but not by name! 🤣
Did the interrupted cut along the shaft cause the warp? The constant percussion along that particular line, perhaps. I hate interrupted cuts like that. I once put a very small sloped shoulder on the leading edge which seemed to help, and didn't seem to affect the holding power of the keyway later.
No, it was bent before I started cutting
Good job! Just wondering though... Did you also measure the center main bearing to see where the bend was? I don't remember seeing that part. Also wondered if maybe they just left the end of the crank rough machined to the largest size so the customer could custom match it to whatever clapped out drive mechanism they had?
Wisconsin v4 engines have no center main. This was a used, but reground crank out of something else. End of the shaft was definitely bent.
Hello Josh , nice job on the shaft . I was interested in how you set up to cut the taper . I've got 1943 Monarch CY16 with the same taper attachment but I've never used it , maybe some time in the future you could go into more detail on how to set it up .I was also wondering what model is your machine ?
If you have never used it, you probably should tear it down and rebuild it. There are several small bearings in it that will need to be replaced. They are super handy once you figure it out. Mine is an 18CU, I also have a 12CK
I got the machine about a year and a half ago , it had a few issues that I fixed , I did replace all the bearings in the taper attachment . I took the oil lines off in the head stock to make sure they were clear , replaced one metering valve that gos to the sight glass . Now I have an issue with no oil dripping out . I hope to do some work with this machine some day . Thanks for the videos@@TopperMachineLLC
VH4D Wisconsin motors were used for many many years in manufacturing of tobacco harvesters down here in the south which looks like what you had ?!
Did you see how much the shaft dipped when you put your tail stock in the new center hole? The shaft end in your chuck is not concentric. I hope this crank shaft isn't a waste of time since it isn't all that straight. How did that work out? It has been 9 months now...surely it got installed and used by now. Seals and bearings would suffer if that bend is a problem.
I did not see it from my angle that day, but it is still running strong. Machine will outlast the owner. He was absolutely thrilled I could do that.
For someone is scared of automotive jobs. I would bring my parts to you. I make automotive parts. The key is patience.
Was there a big chunk missing from the rim of the hub? Doesnt that cause problems when its running? (I know its not strictly part of the crankshaft you were working on).
Yes there was, and considering parts are not available, he has to use it.
How was the shop able to grind the crank accurately if it was bent?
Good question
Josh, Is there a reason you did not tap the hole with the job in the lathe after you finished the taper?
Control. Last thing I want is to break the Tap in the crank shaft. At least by hand, I can feel when I am in trouble.
@@TopperMachineLLCGood answer
Hell you got it Josh, no prob Bob!
I have no idea what you are complaining about. Other stuff does not bite you in the ass from time to time? I wager it does. Automotive work is no different than anything else. From what I see of you here, problem solving is not an issue with you at all, the hallmark of a good machinist and repairman. If automotive past experiences get you down....Just pretend it is a crankshaft from kind of water pump with a slight problem to solve. See?...No problem 😁🤣
I do love the shape of a Monarch steady. They are so nicely designed
Keep the wife from complaining? Nah...she simply will not complain about the smoke, it'll be the mess on your t-shirt from the anchor lube slinging off all over your clothes! But that is a small price to pay. Anchor lube is outstanding especially on Stainless steel and using with annular cutters in the mag drill. Still I tend to use standard cutting oil. Most people slather too much on. you only need a small bit. Whether it be oil or Anchor lube.
I should have elaborated on the problem with engine work. The customer is always the cheapest person on earth and will complain about price. This job wasn't bad, and he knew I was the only one who could solve it. I was very reasonable with price, to help him out. But in general, engine work is a pain because I don't have engine machines and tooling. Therefore, setup is time consuming. I've seen what these engine shops charge, and I wonder how they stay in business. It's mostly the equipment and dedicated setups. They can just slap it in, quick indicate and tweek and away they go. Whereas a shop like mine has to make fixtures, or figure out setups. Then there is time in setting it up and indicating. Yes the job itself is easy, and that's the only part they want to pay for. Something that takes 15 minutes at the engine shop could take a regular machine shop a couple hours.
This is the real problem.
@@TopperMachineLLC True that is. I worked in a automotive shop once and there is a huge difference for example between cutting a deck a Storm Vulcan block mill and fly cutting on a milling machine for example. However most automotive shops could not or would not do what you did to that crank. In this instance they brought it to the right guy!
@@warrenjones744 thank you! I honestly wondered if an automotive machine shop could do this. You're the 3rd to confirm they couldn't/wouldn't!
Did it work in the engine ?
We run these old machines because they are cheap. Lol. I have a 40 year old john deere 24a and I have $5k in it including the backhoe attachment and mods that I have done. It's a simple machine and the huge costs of newer models just isn't worth it for what I do with it. I use it around my place for moving parts and general clean up. My brother uses it at his mobile home park for maintenance and upgrades. Good job.
I understand the cost aspect but get a wheel loader and you would be amazed at what you have been missing out on. They don't tear up the ground as bad when turning, lifting and carrying capacity is amazing, and they sell for less than any skid steer used.
@TopperMachineLLC Yeah, I need the compactness of a skidsteer as well as attachments that I run. I can still haul my machine on my 20' car trailer behind my half ton. I haven't had to use my dually in a long time. Lol
Starting from a bent shaft to make something straight. That's a challenge.
"This job is terrible, and totally bit me." Still made it look easy and got it done properly. 👍