Mark-NY | Evidence Says It's More Probable God Exists | The Atheist Experience 26.49
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ธ.ค. 2022
- The Atheist Experience 26.49 for December 4, 2022 with Forrest Valkai and Jmike
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In countries where you have free heathcare, child care, free college, good social safety nets, and retirement taken care of, you see religion on the decline.
Like here 🇬🇧 specifically 🏴?
We 🏴 don't even pay prescription charges at the pharmacy.
Just see all the scandinavian countries. They are the best in the world.
Unfortunately, such countries can find their social safety net under considerable strain with an influx of refuges from politically unstable or war torn countries. In such cases religion can increase, though that's largely as a result of importing from outside.
@@duncanbryson1167 Not only can you go to the hospital without worrying about the cost, but you have an adequate amount of sick days at work to actually do it! As a resident of the US, it just seems alien and blissful.
@@lukewojtanowicz1991 that's just government propaganda. They want you blame foreigners for their failings. It doesn't put the country under stress, but benifits the country economically in the long run. That's not an opinoin, its maths. Welcome refugees and you'll see benifits.
When someone says "I'm a skeptic" but then also "I start with the assumption that god exists" I can immediately dismiss them as an idiot and a charlatan.
Very clearly mark is not skeptical
Yes, that's what bothered me about this caller, his fake skepticism.
well yeah agree
You actually cannot express disbelief in God (at least, not the God of the Catholic church). The Catholic tradition holds that God is self-referential, meaning he is himself and he is like himself. When you try to express disbelief, you have an idea of some kind in your mind. This idea is like something, therefore it is not God you express disbelief in, it is whatever the being in your idea is.
This is also why most theists worship an idol. Because they worship some idea they have in their minds rather than viewing God as the top of an ever ascending ladder.
@@allisthemoist2244 this is asinine, it is maybe one of the most stupid things I have ever read
"I'm a skeptical person, so I start by assuming that this god exists..."
Yeah, the thing that drove me nuts throughout this call, him repeating that he is skeptical, dude, you clearly are not skeptical, stop saying that
@@ARoll925 So many people lack self awareness, it's the same thing with so many claiming they're critical thinkers while going on to use no critical thought. It takes no effort or even thought to self label.
Similar to the I used to be an atheist & equally irritating.
@@snooganslestat2030 Well he used both. And his obvious inability to think skeptically about this question he portrayed as important to himself puts now doubt on the truth of his non belief too.
I was asked by a theist the other day if i have any evidence for my atheistic beliefs.😆
If I want to prove if someone loves me the first step would be to show that the other person actually exists.
Or maybe start with an agreement of what is meant by love since that's what's being tested. I can prove my wife exists but I'm not sure I could prove she loves me. By the definition of most societies, I have strong reasons to believe it.
No, it's just that you haven't yet met my totally real "savior from Canada"! She loves me completely, and it's a shame she isn't here right now for you to see it, but you should totally take my word that I have a savior from Canada and she just loves me to death!
Also, good proof that someone loves me is not telling me love me back or I'm going to HAVE to send you to hell
@@richelleeasley6492 think of a married couple where one spouse tells the other that if you ever try to leave me then I will lock you in the basement and torture you for the rest of your life. But I really love you! There is no such thing as love at the point of a gun. Nobody, IMHO, can really love the Christian god.
This was always the biggest problem with my girlfriend who goes to another school, who I PROMISE is real
Mark: "Touche, fellow scholar! It appears that there are good arguments on both sides!"
Jmike: "No."
When he finally gets around to “evidence”, he throws out a claim without any evidence. Theism in a nutshell.
Here's a question for you. Does justice exist? If so, where is it and can I see it?
@@allisthemoist2244no. Justice is an arbitrary conclusion based on subjective morality and ethics. It only “exists” if you believe it does.
@@kennybachman35 bingo. This is why the Catholic Church holds that rituals like confession and prayer work when you have belief, and that God only acts through you when you believe in him and let him.
@@allisthemoist2244 my opinion would be that justice is conceptual, it exists in our minds, primarily at the emotional level; like fairness.
@@allisthemoist2244 Your reply to Kenny re: catholic doctrine seems to support my position, God only exists as a manifestation in the mind of the believer.
When someone has to repeat over and over "I am a skeptical person" you can fairly assume that this is just a lie they are telling themselves.
@@kentonbaird1723 maybe when he was 4
@Kenton Baird As far as, everyone is born an atheist.
I would ask them to prove it.
I really don't think most religions would have become so accepted if it didn't include a afterlife. Best con job ever invented by man.
my heretical belief is that Nirvana in Buddhism is a trick to get humans to accept that there isn't an afterlife by framing freedom from rebirth as the ultimate goal.
ALL religions are fear based, in that they prey on people's fear of death so the "after life" is the main selling point of any religion
@@nondescriptcat5620
Well apparently it only worked on the very few humans who are Buddhists.
Afterlife and nirvana are essentially the same nontestable realms.
Nirvana is the ultimate happiness (multiple religions not just Buddhism) the release from suffering and the complete rejection of all materialism. There is no body but your consciousness that has merged with god (sikhism). You get to enjoy Nirvana. In Buddhism, what you also avoid, when reaching Nirvana, is Buddhist hell something that is worse than any depiction of christian hell.
There are more than 500 million Buddhists in the world. That’s 1.5 times the population of the U.S. I wouldn’t say that represents “very few humans.” I’m not saying Buddhism is right. I’m saying it’s relatively popular in certain parts of the world
My favorite pet peeve is when the theist throws out a claims, gets debunked, says he understands and agrees, then moves the goal posts or comes up with a different claim.
When will they realize they can't just throw shit on a wall and see what sticks?
it worked for them, it's the same technique mediums use, they keep making claims until they get something right and people are like "omg how could they possibly know that ? it must be true they speak to the dead !"
It's literally all they've got. If they didn't do it, they probably wouldn't be believers.
He literally said he starts with the position that god is real and works from there, that's literally the definition of confirmation bias. Then he says " I think atheists have this misunderstanding that the theist is putting the cart before the horse". No not a misunderstanding, you literally said it lmao the amount of mental gymnastics someone has to do to think like this is astonishing.
Also claims to be a skeptic several times too.
He also said that he came to his faith after examining the evidence. In that case, it is not faith! But I suppose it still is faith because he lied and didn't have any evidence.
Mark, "skepticism" does NOT mean disbelieving all arguments that dispute your presuppositions. 😮💨😮💨😮💨
A lot of people seem to think that's exactly what skepticism is!
@@amtlpaul I don't believe you.
Basically, “I’m a skeptic, and I’m starting with the assumption that God is real, so why do the atheists push back against that evidence?”
…I honestly don’t understand why these callers can’t hear themselves. 🤷🏼♂️
"I use Science, Philosophy, Metaphysics"... what everybody says that is interested in the truth of a question... it's like saying "i consider the natural, supernatural and purely hypothetical until i find my answer".
What got me was "I’m starting with the assumption that God is real" followed later by "I think atheists put the cart before the horse and start with an assumption that god doesn't exist".
It's perfect "rules for thee but not for me"
Because the only voice they hear is that of their Invisible Friend...
Sad but True.
The older I get the more disappointed I get with humans. They're generally thick and can't string a basic thought together.
Very depressing.
😂 “Actually, I went about it in reverse”…well of COURSE you did! 😆
Mark may one day realize how dishonest it is to say “my proof is your lack of proof” and try to make that a proof positive claim. 🤦♂️
If your argument is predicated on the other person not being able to provide evidence for their argument, does that mean your argument will become invalid when the other person dies?
@@derkylos Or moreover, if a person doesn’t believe anything because they don’t KNOW anything…wouldn’t that be also a negation of a belief system WITHOUT proving it false?
The whole thing turns in to some kind of muddying water exercise. Dishonest in its entirety.
I maintain a radical skepticism in which I always say that I don't "believe" in anything. I think some things are PROBABLY true, depending on the weight of available evidence. But "believe" in stuff-- never.
A fairly common religious argument I've heard is "Non believers have to show why Jesus' tomb was empty".
Wrong, believers have to first prove that there actually was a tomb, Jesus was real and that Jesus was in it before that's an even remotely viable challenge.
That has been my point. I left a comment once re that being one of Garry Habermass's "arguments" and someone said GM didn't consider that sound any more either.
It's empty because thats what the authors wrote.
Nothing more.
which is also very unlikely as crucified criminals were thrown in mass graves.
My general response when I get asked about the empty tomb is to ask how they ruled our the possibility that the ‘whitenesses’ arrive before the body was placed in the tomb or if they arrived days/weeks/ months after someone else had gone into the tomb and for whatever reason moved the body?? Or how they ruled out the possibility of Jesus being in some sort of coma for a few days?? Or even worse just faking being dead??
There’s so so many other possibility then what’s written in the bible
So an empty tomb means resurrection? So in the Egyptian pyramids that are missing mummified bodies (which was the case for a LOT of them), it's evidence that the mummies came to life and walked out of the pyramids?
I see...🙄
It never fails to make me facepalm when these callers are presented with extremely simple questions that underline their entire philosophies and all they can reply with is "Yeah, but Jebus though...".
Jebus is Jerusalem before the genocide.
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature Seek help.
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature The delusion is strong... Yet is nothing more or less than that, a fucking DELUSION.
What's inside someone's heart? Blood.
Its not mine but its real :D
If someone was to accept Jesus into their heart, specifically in which ventricle should they accommodate him?
@@duncanbryson1167 Everyone knows there is a special jesus shaped compartment in your heart. The thing is, its 1/100 scale, so he cant fit very well.
Air on bad occasions
Don't forget plaque.
Faith that my wife loves isn’t faith. It’s confidence & trust based on her words and actions - it also helps that she’s real, not just to me, but everyone else.
You are correct. Belief that wife loves you is not faith, it's an estimation, based on observence of the wife and also observence of the society. If we lived in society where 90% of wives cheat, there would be no faith in wives. So it's not a faith, it's empirical estimation.
You can also come to an agreement ahead of time with someone over what is meant by 'love'.
AND you could be wrong.
@@random_cookies No one said you couldn’t…either way, the evidence that your partner loves you or not is better than for any fking god existing lol
100% :)
The combined levels of education and eloquence of Jmike and Forrest is unmatched.
JMike is a boss, and Forrest is an especially challenging miniboss.
Wow… Listening to a “skeptic” who has searched for “objective truth” and has based his “faith” in Christianity because of the “evidence” in the Bible… The level of respect and scope of thoughtful discussion you guys have with callers just absolutely blows my mind. I aspire to that level of intelligent, informed engagement. And patience.
His argument were dogshit but his conduct was at least acceptable.
@@heinshaaine8153 a charlatan scamming you with a smile is still a scammer
@@Columbiastargazerbut he isnt scamming anyone.. he is the victim of a scammer
@@heinshaaine8153 if you protect the scammer that is scamming you, you enable the scammer to scam others and become a scammer as well
@@Columbiastargazer no. The everyone is a perpetrator mentality just leads to a null sum game were everyone persecuted...
Imagine using the same mentality to political parties
The day they realize it’s just a “personal faith” will be the day they also realize it’s not a reality
Like "transgenderism"? Zero reality with that mental delusion!
If you think the Bog Bang, Darwinian Evolution & Abiogenesis is not based on faith..I have some bad news for you.😊
@@paulk9188 You are joking right...Right?
@@user-wo7ql7or3g oh..you think any of the fore mentioned are true? I guess that doesn’t surprise me. Atheists also now believe there are more than 2 genders, that despite the definition of the word, life “doesn’t REALLY begin at conception”, a mask stops viral transmission,& the jabs is effective. Atheists are the personification of Stockholm syndrome.😊
@@paulk9188 bro, you sure are ignorant. Atheists don't "believe in two genders". And honestly, you just pull shit out of your ass in order to convince yourself that the other side is bad. But then again you believe in magic and stuff.
Lol he needs evidence for each individual claim for the Indian miracle worker but not for Jesus....mmmmkay..
Right.
Mark: “When you’re asking the question whether somebody loves you, how do you answer that question?”
When somebody tries to change the subject, that answers the question of whether they have any evidence for any god.🤡
29:20 "If you look at everything through the lens of the idea that a god must exist, you'll see things as evidence that a god exists." This guy is a waste of time.
With no disrespect to the other hosts of the show, but JMike and Forrest should be forever the main hosts. These two men are amazing. I love u guys :’)
Agree that they are amazing! But I still want some of the other hosts too 😊
I'd be down for the Forrest and JMike show.
"Faith does not require evidence" is the only sentence that can properly include the words "faith" and "evidence".
"Faith does not include or even allow for evidence."
That's two.
Dude could not even respond to the Indian miracle worker that millions of people say that they saw. He just keeps talking about a Jewish zombie that had never met any single writer. Hilarious
That's his cognitive dissonance kicking in, what a shame for an "skeptical" person to be this closed-minded.
Which miracle? Ash appearing in his hands? Regurgitating golden eggs? Or any one of his many tricks that a good illusionist can do? If you’re not right up in front of him, you didn’t see anything, you’ve only convinced yourself you saw something. And again, illusionists do these types of tricks for a living.
@@jpbaley2016 the same miracle stuff people claimed Jesus did is the point. Millions of people alive today say they saw it happen just like a few people claimed about Jesus in the bible. Surely millions of people are more credible than a few apostles and some writers who never met Jesus right?
@@Erik-hi Buh, buh, buh, buh, ... he was a fake, jesus was real.
@@inyobill how do you know?
Saying "I'm a skeptical person" multiple times, in a short period, guarantees it is untrue. Its extra awesome when the stuttering and stammering begins... 🤣
It like Im not racist but...
@@stevenswitzer5154 Heh. 😄
I could say the following right now - “I am a skeptical person. I am a skeptical person. I am a skeptical person. I am a skeptical person. I am a skeptical person. I am a skeptical person” - and as long as I don’t immediately undo it by saying I believe some bullshit based on nothing, I’m not lying. I AM a skeptical person, just repeating that I am doesn’t undo that. And “I’m not a racist but…” is only analogous to “I’m a skeptical person but I believe that Noah lived to 900,” or some similar nonsense. It’s the but that makes the difference, as our saviour Sir Mixalot teaches us.
@@GregorBarclay I disagree. Telling people something about yourself over and over is VERY good evidence that it isn't true. A skeptical person does not need to constantly tell people that they are. Others say "honestly" often enough for others to question their honesty. And there are many other variations on this theme. Either they repeat it intentionally because they THINK it somehow improves peoples' opinions about them (rare) or it is a subconscious tic they aren't even aware of (common). In either case it undermines their credibility and informs others of their failure to actually be skeptical.
Even when I was a young kid, under age 15, I didn't understand what the Bible meant when it said, “Jesus speaks with authority.” I still don’t understand it, 55 years later.
He's saying he's the boss
I'm at 8 minutes and they have now asked him to present his evidence three times and he has failed to do so all three times.
You can check out Mark (He/Him) from NY on the Line too, 'Aron Ra vs ANYBODY! | SkepTalk 12.05.22'. He failed miserably on that show too and was called out as a time waster (you can here him laugh when he was found out for his trolling) and they moved on to someone else.
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature
You are proof there is no God, numpty.
I like these kinds of conversations. No aggression, just passionately discussing the subject.
True but come on.. we all like some heat an fire from time to time.. love when Matt brings the fire.. or aaron ra.. or professor Dave lol
@@InanisNihil I don't miss Matt one bit.
You knew he was going to be rude, interupt and being it back to slavery.
It was like watching a super super smart 5 year old use sound logic to embarass fools, not my cup of tea.
@@cjp1599 lol now need to ignore where Forrest was rude and mock'd people.. and in a silly way...😂its called cherry picking kid...
also Matts been at this for what 20years+..?
its like Professor Dave Explains.. he's been at it so for a long time too and now days has no more patience for flat earthers and creationists and often out right just mocks t them and humilates them with sound logic ..
again aaron ra.. we all know him .. hes not a stranger to it either..
====
ironic part of all this.. Neil Tyson no longer does any of that stuff.. simply a science conveyer YET tons of people hate or dislike him.. calling him "rude" and he hasnt at all been anything like that since long ago when he still bothered to debate religious people..
fyi: funny how u call people rude and lowkey ded ass insult them YET have the nerve to say ur not into that..?! u literally just did it here.. u wont watch it yet u'll engage in it urself..? if anything ur just trash talking "behind peoples back" and not to their face..
most humans.. that includes u.. sometime u get in to heated arguments some times there tame.. as far as im concerned ur just a hypocrite to me.. im a wrong?
address all these points FRIGHT AWAY AT THE START OF UR POST OR I WILL NOT BOTHER READING
im making an assertion of you.. so i think u should defend urself...
personally my mood various and who i watch depends on my mood.. and my mood sometimes really enjoyed when forrest was MOCKING PEOPLE 😂
also another bold claim im making.. MOST OF USE HERE probably ded ass enjoyed and watch that shit.. some stopped but they arent being hypocrites acting like their better then that now.. 😂
if u had just said "not my cup of tea" it be fine what u said above that is u literally throwing shade.. sounds like that highhorse vibe to me..
These conversations frustrate me because the caller is obviously an idiot ("I'm a skeptical person but I start with a belief in god"; come on what a stupid thing to say) yet he's being treated as a serious person.
@@lawrencefleischer1414 i agree.. im all for people just not playing that game to hold up "appearance" of being "respectful"
butt again im also ok with people being respectful.. its like some people act like the former is somehow inherently bad cause ur putting up with an tolarenting nonsense..
like we all can be and are assholes about things then sometimes we're not 😂 im almost certain we can all agree on that...
i understand this as just a part of human interactions IT HAPPENS.. YOLO not the end of the world.. so it doesnt bother me when it happens just as often as it bothers me when they dont and the caller gets away with nonsense.. when people DONT push back and really press it.. cause theywant to "appear" a certain way..
ive been too passive.. to aggressive.. in the middle and everywhere inbetween.. wishing i was more stern or less stern.. 😂
i think the ultimate destinanation is tbh Neil Tyson... man doesnt even really engage in debate or arguments anymore.. he simply relays or teaches the science and either u take it or leave it.. 😂butt i aint at that level yet.. 😂
Faith was invented to fool the massed
Belief ≠ acceptance
Faith ≠ trust.
Hearing this guy stumble over his words after he gets asked something he can’t answer is priceless
What you taking bout?
All that special pleading and then he says, ' I believe from intuition that God exists'. Wow. WHAT A WASTE OF TIME
"humans are more than animals" is purely egotistical.
They are also mammals, primates, hominids and eukaryotes.
Humans ARE more than animals. Specifically, they're the kind of animal I'm part of.
depends on the category you apply... biologically no, we are "just" animals. Like almost every crawling thing around us that we are interested in. Philosophically, there can be arguments if we're "more" due to the additional level of language, the highly developed social system etc.
But usually it is said in affront due to a religious position of "animal bad, human superior" and that is nonsense.
Man, the Neurotic Ape.
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature So you claim Skunks are just as stupid as humans to make up literary bad persons to tyranize the children's at night? I don't think so, only the hairless ape would burden itself with such paranoid delusions.
28:11 "When it comes to my personal faith, I look to science, philosophy, and metaphysics. That's where I start from..."
10 minutes earlier...
17:56 "I START from this idea that there is a god, and then I kind of work from there"
This guy really needs to figure out which of these two contradictory places is the correct way to start, and which of them he's actually starting at. It's clear that starting from the idea that there is a god is fallacious, and that this is where he's really starting. But if you start by presuming your conclusion, you're necessarily leading yourself to your conclusion by leading the evidence where you want it to go.
JMike rules, Mark drools. It's just special pleading and question begging.
I really like that Jmike is able to break down the historical facts surrounding Jesus of the Bible. I appreciate that he is very educated on that topic as many Atheists do not have that kind of depth in their knowledge. It can help show the Christian caller that there is more they need to learn and will hopefully help them keep an open mind towards the truth of the matter. I always enjoy seeing someone who specializes in a particular topic. It's very helpful when educating a caller.
It's true that many atheists don't have that kind of in-depth knowledge of the bible and I think JMike is a very impressive and intelligent man however many atheists are atheist because they have studied and read the Bible and it doesn't make sense to them and or they find the Christian God so evil and repugnant it turns them completely away from any kind of faith.
Credit to the caller, this guy wasn't unbearable, he was quite a polite theist
Yeah, to a point, but insufferable with it.
still didn't answer any question..
Politely dodging every challenge issued.
Love JMike's damning bible and historical knowledge. Two very smart dudes right there.
But he took those verses out of context! Not fair! Out of context!
Or he put the verses into context
How is it a misconception that a theist is putting the cart before the horse when, minutes before taking issue with that claim, they literally SAY "I start with this idea that there is a God and I work from there."
WHAT IS A GOD?!?! How does the math work out to find probability of something no one can demonstrate is even possible?
It’s not objective if you start off thinking “there has to be a god.”
I got my "definitive answer" to the question of my wife loving me... when she left. That was a pretty definitive "no".
Other than that, the answer is totally dependent upon the people involved. If the statistics tell us anything, it is that there is nothing at all about a religion-based marriage that is inherently better than a couple purely staying together because they want to be together - without even any form of ceremony.
idk if ur struggling with that or not, and its not my place to know, but regardless i hope youre doing well cuz
So you commit fornication?
@@timsmith530 a) How did you go from "my wife left me" to "I have sex with other people (which I'm not married to)" and
b) I'm assuming you think fornication to be a bad thing. Please explain why.
This is demonstratably false. Does signing your name to a contract make it legally binding? The answer is yes, it does because we respect the ritual of signing a name.
This is how marriage works and how things like confession works. The ritual causes people to act in a certain way just like signing your name on a contract causes you to act a certain way
@cy-one fornication is bad for the same reason it's wrong to punch someone during most sports events. There is a certain structure and set of values that we build societies with and that our rituals match. For example, some of our values are that our names hold us in some way which is reflected in the fact that we sign our names to bind ourselves to something.
Sex is a symbolic microcosm of the relationship between Christ and earth. As such, misalignment of it leads to a degradation of the values that humans intrinsically respect.
If you go from being an atheist to some sort of theist, then over time you have lowered your standards as to what constitutes evidence for the existence of a god.
“I’m a sceptic” and also “I start with god”
"I'm skeptical."
Twenty minutes later.
"I think there are things you just have to accept, based on your experience of god."
Gimme a break. You're not skeptical.
Theists never seem to understand that words often have multiple meanings and often shades of meaning on context. The religious use of 'faith' is entirely different from the way it might be used colloquially.
As is the word 'proof'. Apparently.
& Skeptical & evidence...the list goes on.
Not forgetting the creationists' "It's only a THEORY".
Everyone's got a plan until they call The Atheist Experience.
😂😂😂
Evidently, this guy was never an atheist.
Mark: I like my shiny bobble and reject all other shiny bobbles presented. Me: Skeptic my ass.
Caller admitted to working backwards from his conclusion...
There's no evidence for love.
"Sure there is. Love without evidence is...stalking." - Tim Minchin
I've often wondered if religious people feel like they're under surveillance. Thinking I'm being watched even in the shower or during sex. Sounds super creepy
@@undrwatropium3724 Maybe they're super into voyeurism.
I thought it was called puppy love.
I'm waiting for Tim's new movie.
"... came back from the dead..."
No. Dead is dead. There's no coming back. Death is an irreversible condition. Recovering from 'near death' is another matter entirely. Being near death means you are still alive. Any questions?
Theists love talking about people coming back from death, they didn’t die! They lived, critical thinking no where to be seen.
Mark, like all other theists, don't want to have to provide evidence for a God. So he wants to misrepresent what atheism is.
Of course & then get offended when people dont take them seriously. 🙄
Caller: “I’m a skeptical person.”
Literally 10 seconds later “I start with the assumption god exists.”
THATS NOT SKEPTICISM!!!!!!
The fact that people are gullible is the most simple explanation of how we are as social interacting beings resulting in the paramount failure we find ourselves..
Theists love talking about probability with apparently no idea what it actually means. Probability is literally a mathematical calculation, yet they never present any actual calculation. To say that it is more probable that our universe was created by a god than not is literally to say that, if there were 100 universes like ours, at least 51 of those universes would have been created by a god but some would not. They are literally saying that our universe could exist without a god.
They seem to think they can accurately determine probability... with a set of 1.
Which is impossible.
The theist version of probability theory goes something like "I can't believe that's possible or that it happened like they say it did, so the probability of it happening must be zero..."
when you learn probability you can then see its very easy to create incredible thing happening and look "impossible".
Just take a random number from 1 to googleplex, what is the probability of that number to happend? OH its so impossible that must be God saying that number!
Now put that in perspective to ANYTHING happening in life, incredible thing happens ALL THE TIME so saying its "improbable" make no sense
It's truly amazing to me how someone can be cornered into having to so obviously wrestle with their own cognitive inconsistencies without clocking on to it...
I have been there myself.. and EVERY TIME it shut me down... because when faced with my own inconsistencies I am compelled to sort them out.
This call blows my mind.
Especially the part where he is like:
"Well, I believe god is real and kinda work from there" followed by him talking about how he is a sceptic and wants to know the truth etc etc
I was never religious. Only went to church as a kid but even I had to deconstruct to a point because it's ingrained into our society. Especially here in the south. So I can't imagine what it's like to have all this be such a big part of your life. I did kick heroin after 30 years. I imagine it feels like that. Stay strong ❤️
Funny thing, One of the things I was taught during my first steps on the Christian path was to make my words and actions as consistent as possible, from a mentor who practiced what he preached to the point where he accepted criticism and corrected course when I pointed out that he was being inconsistent in something he did.
The mental gymnastics this dude's performing is exhausting.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I’m a skeptical person when it comes to other claims that I haven’t been indoctrinated into.
Just discovered your channel today after you popped up on my homepage. Subscribed midway through the second video!. Great work boys, keep it up.💪I wish I could be as calm as you two dealing with some of these people😄
Can't believe I listened to that whole thing and completely forgot we were waiting for evidence.
💀
Their evidence somehow never can be put into words that make sense
I really like the civility to the discussion that Forrest and JMike bring.
So impressed with the forensic detail brought to the table by JMike and Forrest. I think they are two of the very best youtubers on these types of discussions.
Forrest needs to upgrade his internet
I always appreciate hearing Forrest talk, and I enjoyed JMike here too. Great approach to conversation, I will look for more JMike in the future.
He literally did say he "puts the cart before the horse" though. He had one part even JMike caught, when he said he starts with believing in god.
Mark, really? You eat up the jebus story according to the available evidences? Really? You don't care what is true. Period.
You can't even get to "God is more probable" when you can't even show that a deity existing is _possible_ in the first place.
Oh what a wonderful argument... So after saying that how many bastards did you convince or you are just reciting in your echo chamber for the choir?
Come on say it: "Leave me alone! Teacher, teacher this boy is saying nasty things to me. Meow, meow, meow..."
@@Angelum_Band
It is sad just how badly you want my attention.
@@Diviance No, you are missing the point. I am a troll remember? What does an Atheist troll do for fun? But, if it does offend you that much I'll leave you alone. As I said I am a troll not a torturer.
@@Angelum_Band are you ok?
This was an honest and good caller. Brilliant both Jmike and Forrest!
You guys do good work. Thank you.
I heard a great thought on street epistemology. If you were being guided through a forest and you came upon an old bridge. If the the guide said "I have faith this bridge is good" vs "I trust this bridge is good" which one would you be more confident in?
Like the bridge, both are pretty shaky. The trust can't be a colloquial type trust though, which is on a par with faith essentially, it has to be based upon something tangible confirming structural integrity.
Okay, but why should anyone care, or waste time on rituals for said God?
Love these guys and their explanations
I think this is a very good discussion. It’s respectful and intellectually interesting. Refreshing.
it's so annoying they keep asking questions and he wont answer any of them..
Yet another adherent of the God delusion claiming he used to be agnostic/atheist.
Are these people trying to convince the hosts or themselves???
I'm amazed that he claims to be a skeptical person, you are clearly not skeptical mark
I find claims like that to be mostly disingenuous, they just think it lends to their credibility and makes them appear less biased for some reason.
@@xtinkerbellax3 Exactly this.
What I can never understand is when a caller obviously has been watching this and other atheist shows, sometimes for years, and yet still makes the same mistakes, and still believes in their god, which should not be the case in the light of the nonsense and ridiculousness his or her beliefs are exposed to be. It’s befuddling.
Cognitive dissonance is powerful. "I start with science and evidence but also when someone presents reason and logic I just play pretend like I've earned my beliefs through practicing skepticism that I can't actually demonstrate."
Lol, Forest Loves JMike.
Forest Loves JMike.
Good show guys. Thanks.
Jmike, you are an awesome speaker!
If the biblical jesus existed he'd be in history books. That he only appears in the same book as talking snakes and donkeys, poisoned apple trees and a man living in a big fish is significant.
Biblical Jesus, the cult leader IS in history books.
“When it comes to my personal faith, I look to science.”
Sure you do.🤤
“I think there’s good arguments for both sides.”
Then why can’t you show any good arguments for your side?🤡
The idea of Jesus being an apocalypticist resonates with me a lot. If he convinced the disciples that he was the Jewish messiah, and they expected him to bring the kingdom soon. They left everything for him and then boom, he got crucified, and it is all gone. Their worldview is shattered in a manner we could hardly understand - everything they stood for - is gone. To maintain some amount of sanity I can easily see that their minds went overdrive to explain what happened. Also, it seems that Jesus used quite an ambiguous style of speaking - he never really said that he is god and/or messiah - he left them to think so - so that left disciples open doors to interpret his teachings and the entire situation in a new way - to reconcile what Jesus was teaching and what happened, And it only takes one to come up with the explanation for the rest to jump aboard.
Or they just needed a martyr
The irony of him saying “I’m a skeptical person” and writhing the same speaking time says “I start with the idea that there is a god.”
I abandoned my evangelical Christian faith years ago ….I still argue with myself on the matter. It still bugs me.
I get it. You were once in a fixed cognitive state, and that fixed stability can serve as a source of comfort.
But at the same time, it's static. It's dead to new information, unresponsive to reality. Now you're in a cognitive state that's dynamic, subject to revision, not given to you by an authority but created by your own investigation.
This is what it means to give up the last vestiges of infancy and become a fully responsible adult. It kind of hurts, to exercise those new muscles. And it can be kind of lonely, to carry all that responsibility. But it is as free as it gets. You are bound only by the facts of reality. You can make anything of that you want.
I can't speak for you on this, but when I argue with myself, it's practicing those muscles, asking myself: how do I know this? That, I hope, becomes a lifelong practice. It's so deeply rewarding to hold truth with an open hand.
@@starfishsystems thank you my friend. That helps. I’ve read it three times….and I’ll keep meditating on it✌👍
@@ookeekthelibrarian thanks man. Your photo is the antithesis of your care and concerning nature. 😂All the best to you
The Jesus story is an old one and the story of Horus (thousands of years earlier) is almost identical, same birthday, born of virgin, 3 wise men led by a star, taught in temple as child, this guy even had the same disciples, he was the lamb of god, the light, the way, the truth bla bla bla.......if this happened in modern times the publishers of the bible would be in court charged with plagiarism.
Also, an Ankh symbol is almost a match for the idea of Christ on the cross with a halo around his head....
@@t800fantasm2 hi, yes I have found other Christ like people that were around before Jesus. I wanted to read more on Ankh and found an interesting article by Reno Omokri, he has been travelling around the Middle East searching for the origin of religions. I did not previously know that the cross was not part of the early church for the first 300 years, the cross is not in the scriptures which the bible is translated from.
Anytime someone goes the "well you don't have an answer so mine must be correct!" path is when I tune out anything they have to say.
Every time he calls himself a skeptic I almost piss myself
He's skeptical & needs evidence for Sai Baaba.
But for Jesus, it's personal experience leading to evidence.
Sure buddy.
You can touch, see, speak with and listen to the person you believe loves you. It not comparable to a thing that is couched in suspect history.
"I'm a skeptical person."
Next sentence:
"I start with the assumption that god is real..."
I detect an incongruity.
Wow Jmike and Forrest are two of the smartest and articulate people out there.
He's just like every other guy that says "I was an atheist" ...but now without any reliable evidence or reason, I'm a theist, expecially a christian...
A human being is more than an animal!
Specifically, they are vegetable + mineral. You know, venereal.
"Too big for a bacterium, too fidgety for a plant. Yup, I'm an animal." Forrest Valkai.
@@donaldnumbskull9745 "Humanity is a sexually transmitted disease," someone on Reddit, probably.
@@lnsflare1 This entire conversation is invenereal to me.
@@donaldnumbskull9745 I've actually used that line at work on a flat earther who also happened to be a creationist ( a.k.a. a complete idiot )
I once lost my sunglasses at a cliff lookout. When they fell off, they went up,not anti-gravity just wind
I've seen Jesus Live in concert a handful of times back in the day, and I will concur, he's a great speaker.
An opinion isn't really "evidence" for the existence of a god.
I'm looking for valid and verifiable evidence to support the existence of a god.
So far, nobody has provided me any valid and verifiable evidence to support the existence of a god.
@Williamtarry define evidence please.
@@darinb.3273 Google it.
@@darinb.3273 known facts from which one can reasonably infer that something is the case
@@darinb.3273
If you are asking someone to define evidence, you are clearly looking for loopholes to trick them.
@@ookeekthelibrarian I don't have a version, Moses asked God that question and He answered Moses in Exodus 3;14.
Cross references
Exodus 6:3, John 8:24, John 8:28, John 8:58, Hebrews 13:8, Revelation 1:8, Revelation 4:8.
I don't mean to sound like Jordan "it depends on what you mean by" Peterson, but define evidence.
He talks like that exactly. He questiones even his own existence.
As a serious answer to what may well have been a playful question, evidence can be defined as "information concerning some given proposition which can be verified, by inspection, as correct."
This isn't exactly the common definition, but for the kinds of discussion we tend to have here, I think it gets to the point more effectively. When we talk about information, we can reference the formalisms of Information Theory. Likewise, propositions have a specific meaning in formal logic. Verification and inspection provide the necessary bridge between formal and empirical epistemologies, and correctness takes us to mathematical logic.
Mark: I want to test my theories, but I'll continue to believe in my god no matter what.