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In the case of the P90's top mounted mags, they completely voided the aiming issue by overengineering how the mags work. The mag is parallel to the length of the gun. The reciever rotates the cartriges as they enter the reciever. Watch videos on how the P90 works. It's total genius!
I got the chance to handle one at a gun range in Las Vegas. A real treat to shoot. Personally had some issues getting a sight picture. But that was partly because I’m right handed and left eye dominant. Another advantage for the system is that the casings eject down. So less of a chance of those things hitting the guy next to you. I think there has been a hybrid between a P90 and AR-15 built. So that could also be another modern top fed machine gun.
The biggest problem with a P90 (in my eyes) is the (currently) lack of being able to use a more powerful round suck as a 7.62x51. But I also understand that it’s also a bullpup design and that there’s no need (typically) for such a cartridge, which is also commonly a much longer range cartridge than what is currently common in today’s conflicts. A 5.56 (.223) is much closer to fitting in with the design necessities of how a P90 operates than a 7.62 does. I still wonder just how well a P90 would operate with a 5.56 cartridge because it does have a slight taper to the body, more than the 5.7x28 does. 🧐
@@ToddAdams1234 the P90 is an smg, 5.56 or 7.62 are usually used for rifles. SMG's are meant for close range so its not uncommon for them to use pistol caliber rounds, take the MP5 for example, its chambered in 9x19.
@@ToddAdams1234 The P90 was designed to be an SMG capable of piercing soft body armour. It was meant to replace the mp5 which struggled against modern body armour.🤓👍
The thing that kept the Australian Owen gun in service through the Vietnam War was it never jammed due to dirt blockages. The top-loading design meant any debris would fall out, something that was vitally important in the muddy conditions of the Vietnamese jungles.
The only magazine that does its job best is the P90. Not only its centered ontop but its fairly transparent, so you can see the ammo count in your 50-round magazines.
It's so good it hasn't been used on any other model... The P90 magazine is reliable, but otherwise, there are issues. It's expensive, bulky, requires a unique scope mount, and is much clumsier to reload than video games would make you think. Also, the ability to see your ammo is partially obscured by the scope mount and is very common in other magazine designs nowadays.
You forgot something really important with top-fed magazines. The Bren gun had two men assigned to it: the number 1 who shot it, and the number 2 who reloaded it, as well as carried spare barrels and tools to fix it. Top-fed magazines are much easier for the assistant gunner to change out since it’s not obstructed by the gunners arms. This is true for both stationary and mobile shooting positions, which is what the design heavily lends itself to. In a pinch it is also possible to reload without an assistant on the move with one hand with the proper use of a sling. Any perceived disadvantage can be overcome with the right military doctrine.
@Simplehistory I would also look at some of heroic feats carried by British and commonwealth troops single Handley running down enemy positions with Bren guns its crazy.
And, though this isn't well known, the Bren accepted pan mags as well to give it an effective and reliable (for the time at least) 100+ round capacity. Intended for useage on aircraft, it did occasionally find utility in AA roles and even at infantry level though this is rare as the sight issue worsens by the magazine blocking them entirely. Regardless, it did still happen and photographs can be found of troops with it. As you've already pointed out though, it's always worth considering the obvious and not so obvious issues in design but the rarely asked question is what did troops actually do about these issues? Too many interesting and often cool (to us history nerds) things to list.
As a shooter I'm fairly partial to side and top mounted mags, makes prone shooting easier (in my opinion). The biggest problem with a decent amount of top mounted mags is the side mounted sights, but that's not really a super big deal t.b.h.
You forgot to mention the most important reason why so many light machine guns were fed from top mounted magazines: So the gunner can keep his aim while an assistant gunner reloads the gun for him. Lewis, DP-27/DPM, Type 96/Type 99 and Bren gun being prime examples. But there were even variants of belt fed machine guns getting top feed drums (MG-15 and MG-34 double drum for Aircraft and Anti Aircraft mounts for example) for faster reloading when every second counts. Edit: Just added a few more examples to diversify.
@@rottingravensblood9106standard MGs that were heavy and required crews of multiple men to man, not something that weighed 30 pounds or lighter could be carried by one man
@@rottingravensblood9106 that was the heavy machine gun. LMGs were still a concept, started with the Chauchat by the French, then Lewis Guns, though they were still using the stationary doctrine. Then the Germans tried to portable the MG08 to be the 08/15 then later the 08/18 and MG14/17 from their aircraft. LMGs are still heavy though to this day.
00:00 Best magazine locations of World War II 01:37 underside magazine placement 04:54 top mounted magazine placement 06:26 side mounted magazine placement 08:27 Conclusion on magazine placement in World War II
The G11 not only had caseless ammunition and some crazy mechanics to delay recoil (along with other stuff), it mounted three magazines on the front of the barrel, and the central one was in use.
they didnt use it beause it was expensive and very complex, if they used Dual Cycle Rifle in G11 type rifle they could made it cheaper and simpler (DCR had 4,900 rpm burst and G11 2100 rpm burst, DCR used 556 NATO, G11 used its own caseless round)
Some SMGs were designed to be gripped by the mage, the MP-40 actually was supposed to be used by gripping the mag. Also some mags needed the user to hold the mag in the firearm especially after being worn out.
@@lewismacleod543 Actually, yes and no. The MP40 does have a handguard where you are supposed to hold it, it's right where the stock is folded against in the above image. Holding this weapon by the magazine housing can be done, and soldiers issued an MP40 were trained in how to do it properly. Under no circumstances is the magazine itself to be used as a handhold. Unlike other magazine designs which have a double-column staggered-feed, the MP40 has a double-column single-feed magazine. What this means is that hand pressure on the magazine body can cause the feed lips to move out of position, instigating a weapon malfunction.
fun fact about the MP18, teh reason it has a weird drum mag or snail mag is the request of field storm troopers who asked for the SMG to use the snail mags which were used with modified lugars, the mag was more than plentiful at the time. Though as for why there is quite a bit of side mag fire arms a little before WW2 is simply put the idea was that WW2 was gonna be another trench warfare or soldiers in constant prone positions.
I was an M-60 gunner. It’s the only machine gun I’ve fired. Having your ammunition hanging from the side on a belt presents some difficulties, but the nearly unlimited firepower gave me confidence.
@@princessmarlena1359 like, on a mount or just firing from the hip, Fallout-style? Would love to shoot one mounted to a tripod or pintle mount myself, but firing one from the hip unaided would be very difficult and possibly even harmful for a human. The recoil from even a relatively light round like the 5.56 × 45mm NATO standard light assault rifle caliber would be very difficult to control at best, and tear your arm from its socket at worst, at the typical rate of fire of such weapons. You might be able to pull it off with one chambered in .22 lr though, or use a mechanical limiter of some kind to cut the rate of fire down significantly. Also, carrying enough ammo to make such a fast-firing weapon viable in a prolonged firefight would be pretty difficult as well.
@@longiusaescius2537 No but they are a similar style. Record player shape and all but very complex and hard to load. The Soviets updated the DP after the war for this reason to accept belt feed.
as a royal canadian navy sailor who's trained on the C7A2, the bottom-fed magazine is sometimes used to rest the rifle on the ground when firing from prone. Takes strain off of your arms, but more importantly adds another point of contact to stabilize the gun and improve firing accuracy
The would-be victim of the Bren gun at 5:47 went from “Oh no! Don’t shoot me!” to “Uh, you need a hand there, bud?” when the user smacked his gun in frustration, lol!
Id imagine the worst placement would be in front of the barrel. "Every bullet you shoot, causes more bullets to fly at the enemy. Thats more bullet per bullet!"
The top mounted magazine on the Bren gun, I dont think I have ever read that the gun had "problems aiming", in fact pretty much everything I have read suggested the gun was extremely accurate, even with a side mounted sighting system to the point that it continued service as the L4 into the 90s in some units in the British Army. Heck I am sure I have seen some sources claiming it as too accurate even. edit: Also for side, the Sterling SMG was in use, again, into the 90s by several countries as a side mounted magainze machinegun.
The Owen gun was also used into the Vietnam War and was even replaced by another top fed gun, the F1 which was only retired when the Austeyr replaced it in the 90's. I'm pretty sure the main reason top fed weapons went out of fashion was convention and compliance with standard rails and sights.
@@EmperorSigismund That and people started to accept that southpaws existed. the issue with top-fed weapons is you need offset the sights to one side unless you over-engineer the thing like FN or Calico and that means it doesn't work well if the sights are offset to the left for southpaws. The Austeyr for example was issued with two bolts one for right-handed shooters, and a spare if the shooter was left-handed and the benefits of top feeding are nominal at best. The Bren is accurate sure until you put a lefty behind one and they have to aim the thing.
One advantage of top mounted magazines is the decreased likelihood of dirt and debris getting into the action and magazine. When the mag is facing down, dirt is not nearly as likely to work its way inside.
4:01 hard fuddlore. You were intended on numerous submachine guns to grip the magazine, most times, this was the only way you could hold it. You can go ahead and look at war photos for yourself.
The Sten was made at a time Britain was arming for "ambush" warfare, either defending an invasion or supplying French Resistance, for those it was great. The switch to the offensive highlighted its shortcomings
This video is full of inaccuracies and generalizations. For example, the main decision leading to the BAR having 20-rounds was realiability: making springs sturdy enough to reliably feed 30 rounds of 30-06 from the bottom was pretty much impossible in 1918, and still very challenging/expensive in the '40s.
And from what I read, the BAR was intended as a sort of assault rifle in WWI, more than a LMG, the US army employed it as a stop gap, and having a lot of semi automatic rifles they could lay more suppressive fire also if it was less than Ideal.
It was meant for trench raiding by a line of BAR gunners who would march or "walk fire" to supress enemy positions but i think the americans enter the europe war too late to test that capacity. But i've seen that maneuver in movies
Best way is p90 way as magazine is literally perfectly in line with gun. Only issue is that its complicated & limits caliber. if you look at p90 it have all mentioned good parts of any other system, so if it would not cost so much, and had a little more oomph, we would see full military adoption of that puny thing.
The best is one you didn't consider- the magazine running along the length of the gun, like the aforementioned Belgian FN P90 (and derivatives such as the AR-57), the Russian PP-19 Bizon, and the North Korean Type 88- the Belgian FN P90 being the posterchild of this specific design. All of the advantages of the side-mounted magazines and the bottom-mounted magazines with none of the downsides.
What was overlooked in this video was the primary reason for the development of the Owen gun - reliability. Especially in jungle warfare which taxes the reliability of machine guns, so the top mounted magazine was developed. It is not all just about the quality of the manufacturing, it is also about the abuse in the field, dirt, mud, rain, that the gun has to endure.
Also because it's a submachine gun fighting in an environment where distances are extremely short, accuracy is less important than volume of fire. So the Owen has to use an offset sight because of the top mounted magazine, it's good enough for short distance aiming but in return they get a larger magazine capacity and a much more reliable weapon. You know a gun is good when the army has to prise it out of the hands of their soldiers when it came time for a replacement.
@@edvoon Also it is not just about the conditions.... it is the nature of your enemy. In that regard, the Owen gun would be less desirable against German forces who are known to prefer a bit of range in their combat and do not use F-ing stupid suicide charges.
Many anti tank rifles use Top loaded mags. Diagonal mags would have been an interesting concept as well, since you could use your sights and balancing by adding counterweight would be a non issue. Yeah the weight is a downer, but usually the most tiring thing isnt the weight, but the position you hold a weapon and it's center of gravity.
You guys have really upped your animation since the last time I checked in. As a gun enthusiast, I appreciated all the detailed representations of WW2 guns :)
Fun fact: One of the reason most primary infantry weapons featured internal magazines rather than detachable ones is the fear that infantrymen would lose or damage too many of the detachable ones. And they were correct. About 2/3 of the detachable magazines issues to troops were never returned to the armorer, or were returned in unusable condition. By the 1950s, however, detachable magazines were so cheap to manufacture that the cost of losing them was easily offset by their various merits.
@@rommelthebreton funny thing is didn't even graduate that long ago 2014 and it was Ashwaubenon Elementary School in Green Bay they do Civil War reenactment every year or at least they used to not sure anymore
The top mounted magazine of the Bren Gun was perfect. It held 30 rounds. was easy for the assistant gunner to change and despite the offset sights the Bren is extremely accurate. The Bren went into service well before WWII and after being converted from .303 to 7.62 NATO stayed in service until the very early 2000s I trained on it and have used them and will take one into a fight any day. Give me a half an hour to train my Number 2 and we are good to go. The side magazine on the Sten and others has one advantage, when you are firing over the top of something it allows you a very low profile. On all of the SMGs DO NOT hold the magazine. You hold the magazine housing. The magazine housing on the MP40 is shaped so it is a hand grip. Holding the magazine is a feed failure that has found a place to happen. Many problems are caused by untrained or poorly trained troops
Top loaded magazines also assist wrapon reliability, any debries that get into the magazine could be tipped out as the mag is moved into position, plus, any dirt that still remianed could fall straight through and out of the ejection port.
Btw German soldiers did not hold thier mp40s by the magazines like on the animations, as it would mess with the feed of the weapon. They would hold the base of the magazine
The top mag was especially good for a light machine gun where you might have an assistant loader it's easier for someone besides the shooter to load a top mag, but that would only apply for a lmg and isn't relevant on smg or mag fed assault rifle
top fed (ZB26, Bren, type99) and side fed (MG42, M1919, sten, type100) are both utilized for MGs. MG shooters usually fire proned and mounted therefore these locations don't make collisions against the ground. For a stand firing weapon the usual (bottom) fed is the best choice. Also holding the magazine while firing is not a disadvantage but an advantage especially to short barreled weapons such as Tec9 or MP40. Their position determined that they can work as a good front grip for SMGs.
Ok hear me out A side mounted magazine that curves back into the gun at a similar angle to the chauchat. The low profile of the magazine means it is far less likely to get caught on doorways and such, and also won't be too much of an imbalance. And even if it is you can just add a small counterweight to the opposite side. All the upsides but almost none of the downsides
What about behind the trigger tho? They have some good advantages like allowing the gun to be more compact, and with a longer barrel. Not only that, but it allows for better aiming while shooting since that the action is all happening in the rear, instead of the front.
Bullpups just aren't as ergonomic as forward-mag rifles and the idea of having the working parts behind the trigger means they (generally) can't be fired left-handed - unless you enjoy hot brass in the face? Might not seem like much but it's a serious tactical failing - instead of "leaning" around a (right-hand) corner you have to expose your whole body in the open. Good luck with that....
Each has pros and cons. Top feeding weapons are assisted by gravity, dirt, water, and sand will also fall out of the action. Side feeding guns are great for shooting prone, and under feeders are best for mobility and ergonomics.
The elefant in the room is feeding type. Belt works best from side while drum magazin is almost unusable anywhere but from bottom - although there are exceptions like Lewis gun, but she has drum magazin lying flat on top and thus not obscuring aim. PS: and then there are older styles of magazins like nondetachable clip-fed magazin (located under gun but fed from up) or tube magazines (either under barrel or in stock).
2:49 oh wow i didn’t picture you behind the voice I legit thought it was an old old man talking LOL 😂 I’m not putting you down by any means I in fact love your voice!!!
that animation was hilarious imagine months of training you land in normandy you enter the building and hit the door frame with magazine of your sten gun making it fall out germans lose their collective crap while laughing at you as someone shots you 4 times in the chest
The side line sights on the bren doesn't hinder aiming and when in position you can turn the weapon on it's side while still on bi-pod in order to get lower, you're forgetting a verticale feed means the mechanism lifts the weapon instead of pushing it diagonally,
Top mounted magazine are easier to load while standing up and firing from the waist Along with kneeling. Because you don't need to reach under the gun to load and the side sights aren't less accurate but they would be a little awkward for someone who hasn't used them before.
I can't seem to find anything on this. What I can find is that it was designed to be a quick and cheap submachine gun. If you have a source, could you please provide so i may take a look.
@@StrakanDocrusReakal The original sten was manufactured with that in mind, but later war variants were changed slightly to better serve the use of British Commandos and other country Resistance forces, the main change made was to allow feeding from captured MP40 magazines.
During WW2, grabbing sub machine guns by the magazine wasn’t causing the jams, it was a way soldiers combated the feed issues of magazines at the time.
Worth noting as for drum mags, bottom fed is the only way they'll work. Getting drums to work from the side or top is basically impossible due the weight, bulk, and complexity of said drums. Hence another reason why drum magazines are not practical.
What about the saddle magazine of the German Mg15. I know it's limited use in infantry, but I'm wondering if there were any advantages to that design, or if a regular belt feed was better. I know the saddle drum was designed for aircraft, so it made less mess inside the aircraft gunner position, but would a quick change saddle, be better without an assistant gunner?
It was basically another top-feeder magazine and it didn't have any real advantages outside of aircraft. It had a high capacity, but it was also heavy, complex, a pain to load and unreliable. There is a reason they abandoned those magazines for the dedicated MGs like the MG 34 and MG 42. Those were just belt-fed weapons with the magazine being a hollow chunk of metal to hold the belt in place.
Fun fact: the MP40 was designed to he held by the magazine well and is considered to hang one of the best magwell grip setups. As for reloading a Bren while standing, it was intended to be fired from the hip while standing, not tje shoulder. This was due to the pre-war doctrine of "walking fire," and a major reason for the ZB-26 and later Bren to use this configuration. An assistant gunner would accompany the gunner, keeping the gun loaded, which is easier to do with a top-mounted magazine.
An more important disadvantage with side mounted magazines. the inertie caused by de mass and feed off cartridges will give an POI shift to the right you have to compensate.easier
There is another noticeable top feed modern production gun : CS/LS6 with a helical magazine, also some other experimental type with helical magazines as well
Speaking of firearms, can you please do an article about SIG Sauer’s new assault weapon for the US Army, The XM7 (Previously known as MCX Spear, and XM5)?
Not just the BAR, the M16 originally had a 20 round magazine so it wouldn't get in the way when shooting from the prone position. 30 round mags are way more common today but during the Vietnam war 20 round mags were standard.
Another detriment of side mounted magazines I read about is that there is no comfortable way to carry them in a sling. You will have either the magazine, the pistol grip, the charging handle or the sights digging into your back no matter what way you carry it.
In terms of practicality, the top-loading method is definitely underrated. Increased reliability, gravity-assisted feeding, and a lower profile when prone. Reloading inefficiencies are honestly negligible when paired with the right doctrine.
If your gun has a pistol grip(or even foregrip), unless your mag is much longer than the grip, you don't actually have to prone higher (say, a Scar-H or HK417，even an AR mag is just slightly longer than your pistol grip when loaded) For top loaded guns, your minimum height is still the pistol grip height.
Not really because what do you do about aiming? Do you put it on the centerline and ruin the day of either right-handed or left-handed shooters by offsetting the sights? Or do you develop a horribly complex magazine for it that.
God smiles on me, i was looking this up yesterday. Ty simple history Could you do a video on allied vs central power trenches in ww1 Been asking for a bit, hope one day you see it
Great to see the Owen SMG included. The Australian Owen SMG had a top feed magazine; US Marines did their best to lay their hands on one; MacArthur was keen to have them issued to US forces. However, the Australian Lithgow firearms arsenal did not have the capacity to produce more than enough for Australian forces. This is the weapon that Aussie troops (mostly inexperienced undertrained territorials) used on the torrential mountainous jungle Kokoda trail which threw back the Japanese 🇯🇵 Imperial Army and marine to the northern coast of New Guinea; the beginning of the end for Japan’s previous mere months unexpectedly speedy invasion through South East Asia, the Dutch East Indies and Melanesia in the South West Pacific theatre .
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The WORST gun Magazine Position in WW2
@@LavaCreeperPeoplelol?
Please stop the live action adds. It is so awfull
@@BLC888nah
In the case of the P90's top mounted mags, they completely voided the aiming issue by overengineering how the mags work.
The mag is parallel to the length of the gun.
The reciever rotates the cartriges as they enter the reciever.
Watch videos on how the P90 works. It's total genius!
I got the chance to handle one at a gun range in Las Vegas. A real treat to shoot. Personally had some issues getting a sight picture. But that was partly because I’m right handed and left eye dominant.
Another advantage for the system is that the casings eject down. So less of a chance of those things hitting the guy next to you.
I think there has been a hybrid between a P90 and AR-15 built. So that could also be another modern top fed machine gun.
The biggest problem with a P90 (in my eyes) is the (currently) lack of being able to use a more powerful round suck as a 7.62x51. But I also understand that it’s also a bullpup design and that there’s no need (typically) for such a cartridge, which is also commonly a much longer range cartridge than what is currently common in today’s conflicts. A 5.56 (.223) is much closer to fitting in with the design necessities of how a P90 operates than a 7.62 does. I still wonder just how well a P90 would operate with a 5.56 cartridge because it does have a slight taper to the body, more than the 5.7x28 does. 🧐
@@ToddAdams1234 the P90 is an smg, 5.56 or 7.62 are usually used for rifles. SMG's are meant for close range so its not uncommon for them to use pistol caliber rounds, take the MP5 for example, its chambered in 9x19.
@@ToddAdams1234 The P90 was designed to be an SMG capable of piercing soft body armour. It was meant to replace the mp5 which struggled against modern body armour.🤓👍
@@MandalorV7The hybrid is called ar-57 but i dont think its used by any military.
The thing that kept the Australian Owen gun in service through the Vietnam War was it never jammed due to dirt blockages. The top-loading design meant any debris would fall out, something that was vitally important in the muddy conditions of the Vietnamese jungles.
it was also rather cheap to make compared the the L1A1 SLRs at the time
@@doomsdaytaco3819True
It's unfortunate that the designer of that gun, an Aussie dude named Owen, didn't have much luck further in life and ended pretty poorly.
The only magazine that does its job best is the P90. Not only its centered ontop but its fairly transparent, so you can see the ammo count in your 50-round magazines.
Love the p90
Hello over engineered magazine feed!!!
It's so good it hasn't been used on any other model...
The P90 magazine is reliable, but otherwise, there are issues. It's expensive, bulky, requires a unique scope mount, and is much clumsier to reload than video games would make you think. Also, the ability to see your ammo is partially obscured by the scope mount and is very common in other magazine designs nowadays.
The modern SMG era
Ah yes, destroying WWII Germans with a P90
You forgot something really important with top-fed magazines. The Bren gun had two men assigned to it: the number 1 who shot it, and the number 2 who reloaded it, as well as carried spare barrels and tools to fix it. Top-fed magazines are much easier for the assistant gunner to change out since it’s not obstructed by the gunners arms. This is true for both stationary and mobile shooting positions, which is what the design heavily lends itself to. In a pinch it is also possible to reload without an assistant on the move with one hand with the proper use of a sling. Any perceived disadvantage can be overcome with the right military doctrine.
very good point👍
@Simplehistory I would also look at some of heroic feats carried by British and commonwealth troops single Handley running down enemy positions with Bren guns its crazy.
And, though this isn't well known, the Bren accepted pan mags as well to give it an effective and reliable (for the time at least) 100+ round capacity. Intended for useage on aircraft, it did occasionally find utility in AA roles and even at infantry level though this is rare as the sight issue worsens by the magazine blocking them entirely. Regardless, it did still happen and photographs can be found of troops with it.
As you've already pointed out though, it's always worth considering the obvious and not so obvious issues in design but the rarely asked question is what did troops actually do about these issues? Too many interesting and often cool (to us history nerds) things to list.
As a shooter I'm fairly partial to side and top mounted mags, makes prone shooting easier (in my opinion). The biggest problem with a decent amount of top mounted mags is the side mounted sights, but that's not really a super big deal t.b.h.
I found it perplexing that the loader was mentioned, but for side instead of top mount.
“I was saving the planet from an Axis of Darkness, while you were back home opening National Parks! Yes!” Winston Churchill
"Bully! A challenge! I love competition, now where would i mount the stuffed head of a Winston (ah!)"
-Theodore Roosevelt, 1944
EPIC RAP BATTLES OF HISTORYYYY!!!
Epic ..... Epic Rap Battle of History! Winston Churchill... V.S .... Theodore Roosevelt... BEGIN!
Winston Churchill also made mass genocide in Sub-India continent over 50 million deaths and said they are sub-humans.
@@Aiden_Muslim you must be fun at parties
You forgot to mention the most important reason why so many light machine guns were fed from top mounted magazines: So the gunner can keep his aim while an assistant gunner reloads the gun for him. Lewis, DP-27/DPM, Type 96/Type 99 and Bren gun being prime examples. But there were even variants of belt fed machine guns getting top feed drums (MG-15 and MG-34 double drum for Aircraft and Anti Aircraft mounts for example) for faster reloading when every second counts.
Edit: Just added a few more examples to diversify.
7:31
“Remember, switching to your pistol is always faster than reloading” - Gaz
they ain’t have those bruh
@@lacclessSecondary sidearms existed ever since man got the rifle
@@extantfellow46 how u gon switch to a sidearm when u don’t have one
@@extantfellow46 i know, but i’m not talking about that.
@@extantfellow46 u can’t switch to a sidearm if you don’t have one
It's not just the P90 that's top-feeding, there's also the calico series of smgs, FN p50 & the AR conversions
Shame it's in a pointless , over rated caliber.
@@F4Insight-uq6ntbasically just expensive 9mm
@@shinyy8918 That can actually defeat soft armour.
@@CoralCopperHeadand has improved ballistics over average pistol cartridges
Yeah
7:14 I love how the one guy that ran into the MG line of fire didn't die
Oh I see bruh why didn't he die 😂
He’s the main character
@@bobthebuilder1360he's the call of duty side character
Keep in mind, submachine guns and Light Machine Guns were relatively NEW weapons back then.
@@rottingravensblood9106standard MGs that were heavy and required crews of multiple men to man, not something that weighed 30 pounds or lighter could be carried by one man
@@rottingravensblood9106 that was the heavy machine gun.
LMGs were still a concept, started with the Chauchat by the French, then Lewis Guns, though they were still using the stationary doctrine. Then the Germans tried to portable the MG08 to be the 08/15 then later the 08/18 and MG14/17 from their aircraft.
LMGs are still heavy though to this day.
@@Wolf-wc1jsFrench army already use lmg in ww1
@@rosaria8384 the madsen gun was the first lmg that existed as far back as 1902
00:00 Best magazine locations of World War II
01:37 underside magazine placement
04:54 top mounted magazine placement
06:26 side mounted magazine placement
08:27 Conclusion on magazine placement in World War II
From what I'm understanding, this user is a bot, it legit just gives you free chapters for videos.. (is what is says in there bio)
Not a bot, tool uses AI, and it's freemium
The G11 not only had caseless ammunition and some crazy mechanics to delay recoil (along with other stuff), it mounted three magazines on the front of the barrel, and the central one was in use.
they didnt use it beause it was expensive and very complex, if they used Dual Cycle Rifle in G11 type rifle they could made it cheaper and simpler (DCR had 4,900 rpm burst and G11 2100 rpm burst, DCR used 556 NATO, G11 used its own caseless round)
Some SMGs were designed to be gripped by the mage, the MP-40 actually was supposed to be used by gripping the mag. Also some mags needed the user to hold the mag in the firearm especially after being worn out.
Almost correct you're supposed hold it by the magazine well with your thumb and top fingers on the well and bottom fingers resting on the magazine.
@@lewismacleod543 Actually, yes and no. The MP40 does have a handguard where you are supposed to hold it, it's right where the stock is folded against in the above image. Holding this weapon by the magazine housing can be done, and soldiers issued an MP40 were trained in how to do it properly. Under no circumstances is the magazine itself to be used as a handhold. Unlike other magazine designs which have a double-column staggered-feed, the MP40 has a double-column single-feed magazine. What this means is that hand pressure on the magazine body can cause the feed lips to move out of position, instigating a weapon malfunction.
fun fact about the MP18, teh reason it has a weird drum mag or snail mag is the request of field storm troopers who asked for the SMG to use the snail mags which were used with modified lugars, the mag was more than plentiful at the time.
Though as for why there is quite a bit of side mag fire arms a little before WW2 is simply put the idea was that WW2 was gonna be another trench warfare or soldiers in constant prone positions.
I was an M-60 gunner.
It’s the only machine gun I’ve fired. Having your ammunition hanging from the side on a belt presents some difficulties, but the nearly unlimited firepower gave me confidence.
Was your m60 reliable?
I’ve always wanted to use an electric mechanism driven Gatling Gun.
and you can always easily check how much you have left.
also, you can drape yourself with it, and that will never get uncool
Stallone Yelling Increases
@@princessmarlena1359 like, on a mount or just firing from the hip, Fallout-style? Would love to shoot one mounted to a tripod or pintle mount myself, but firing one from the hip unaided would be very difficult and possibly even harmful for a human. The recoil from even a relatively light round like the 5.56 × 45mm NATO standard light assault rifle caliber would be very difficult to control at best, and tear your arm from its socket at worst, at the typical rate of fire of such weapons. You might be able to pull it off with one chambered in .22 lr though, or use a mechanical limiter of some kind to cut the rate of fire down significantly. Also, carrying enough ammo to make such a fast-firing weapon viable in a prolonged firefight would be pretty difficult as well.
@4:10 bro got that stormtrooper sighting for his MP-40... 😂
Just a small miss speak at 6:44, "1914" was said but it's "1941" for those just listening to the video.
6:44 1914 🤔
@Coronet_shop yeah he says 1914
@@Spinny300 yeah meant to type that on the main section #killerheat
@@Coronet_shop oh fair enough, my mistake!
The dp28 is an interesting machine gun, it has a top mounted magazine, but it doesn't ubstruck your vision, surprised it wasn't mentioned
It's a lewis gun mag right?
@@longiusaescius2537 No but they are a similar style. Record player shape and all but very complex and hard to load. The Soviets updated the DP after the war for this reason to accept belt feed.
as a royal canadian navy sailor who's trained on the C7A2, the bottom-fed magazine is sometimes used to rest the rifle on the ground when firing from prone. Takes strain off of your arms, but more importantly adds another point of contact to stabilize the gun and improve firing accuracy
Instead of slanting the rifle or putting canted sights manufacturers decided every position possible for a magazine.
The would-be victim of the Bren gun at 5:47 went from “Oh no! Don’t shoot me!” to “Uh, you need a hand there, bud?” when the user smacked his gun in frustration, lol!
7:34
mans really emoted before ending the fight
The heil of shame before being sent back to lobby
Id imagine the worst placement would be in front of the barrel. "Every bullet you shoot, causes more bullets to fly at the enemy. Thats more bullet per bullet!"
That's roughly 65% more bullet per bullet
They fire the whole bullet for more bullet
Metalstorm lol 😅
that sounds like bethesda gun design...
Isn’t that just rifle grenades?
The top mounted magazine on the Bren gun, I dont think I have ever read that the gun had "problems aiming", in fact pretty much everything I have read suggested the gun was extremely accurate, even with a side mounted sighting system to the point that it continued service as the L4 into the 90s in some units in the British Army. Heck I am sure I have seen some sources claiming it as too accurate even.
edit: Also for side, the Sterling SMG was in use, again, into the 90s by several countries as a side mounted magainze machinegun.
The Owen gun was also used into the Vietnam War and was even replaced by another top fed gun, the F1 which was only retired when the Austeyr replaced it in the 90's. I'm pretty sure the main reason top fed weapons went out of fashion was convention and compliance with standard rails and sights.
@@EmperorSigismund That and people started to accept that southpaws existed. the issue with top-fed weapons is you need offset the sights to one side unless you over-engineer the thing like FN or Calico and that means it doesn't work well if the sights are offset to the left for southpaws. The Austeyr for example was issued with two bolts one for right-handed shooters, and a spare if the shooter was left-handed and the benefits of top feeding are nominal at best. The Bren is accurate sure until you put a lefty behind one and they have to aim the thing.
5:56 I like how he just sat there looking at him like "are you gonna shoot me or not".
BAR had 20 rounds for a reason.
A .30 06 is not a light round and the box mag wasn't exactly streamlined.
Anything bigger the magazine will be taller then the bipod
Larger mags were developed for vehicle mounts
1:59 bruh what is bro shooting at 😂
One advantage of top mounted magazines is the decreased likelihood of dirt and debris getting into the action and magazine. When the mag is facing down, dirt is not nearly as likely to work its way inside.
The Type 11 says hello.
“Oh s*** World War too soon? Well Teddy’s dropping bombs so you best go hide in your tube!” Theodore Roosevelt
No.
4:01 hard fuddlore. You were intended on numerous submachine guns to grip the magazine, most times, this was the only way you could hold it. You can go ahead and look at war photos for yourself.
The Sten was made at a time Britain was arming for "ambush" warfare, either defending an invasion or supplying French Resistance, for those it was great. The switch to the offensive highlighted its shortcomings
0:41 YOU ADDED THE PING YESS
This video is full of inaccuracies and generalizations. For example, the main decision leading to the BAR having 20-rounds was realiability: making springs sturdy enough to reliably feed 30 rounds of 30-06 from the bottom was pretty much impossible in 1918, and still very challenging/expensive in the '40s.
Pretty much why the 30 round Bren gun is top mounted. Gravity will assist the loading.
And from what I read, the BAR was intended as a sort of assault rifle in WWI, more than a LMG, the US army employed it as a stop gap, and having a lot of semi automatic rifles they could lay more suppressive fire also if it was less than Ideal.
It was meant for trench raiding by a line of BAR gunners who would march or "walk fire" to supress enemy positions but i think the americans enter the europe war too late to test that capacity.
But i've seen that maneuver in movies
Best way is p90 way as magazine is literally perfectly in line with gun. Only issue is that its complicated & limits caliber.
if you look at p90 it have all mentioned good parts of any other system, so if it would not cost so much, and had a little more oomph, we would see full military adoption of that puny thing.
The best is one you didn't consider- the magazine running along the length of the gun, like the aforementioned Belgian FN P90 (and derivatives such as the AR-57), the Russian PP-19 Bizon, and the North Korean Type 88- the Belgian FN P90 being the posterchild of this specific design. All of the advantages of the side-mounted magazines and the bottom-mounted magazines with none of the downsides.
What was overlooked in this video was the primary reason for the development of the Owen gun - reliability. Especially in jungle warfare which taxes the reliability of machine guns, so the top mounted magazine was developed.
It is not all just about the quality of the manufacturing, it is also about the abuse in the field, dirt, mud, rain, that the gun has to endure.
Also because it's a submachine gun fighting in an environment where distances are extremely short, accuracy is less important than volume of fire. So the Owen has to use an offset sight because of the top mounted magazine, it's good enough for short distance aiming but in return they get a larger magazine capacity and a much more reliable weapon.
You know a gun is good when the army has to prise it out of the hands of their soldiers when it came time for a replacement.
@@edvoon Also it is not just about the conditions.... it is the nature of your enemy. In that regard, the Owen gun would be less desirable against German forces who are known to prefer a bit of range in their combat and do not use F-ing stupid suicide charges.
Storm trooper:*laughs with unlimited ammo but have to wait to not over heat*
I think they used power cells that need replaced. Of course we never see that, but I think I read it somewhere
They last a long time though
Many anti tank rifles use Top loaded mags. Diagonal mags would have been an interesting concept as well, since you could use your sights and balancing by adding counterweight would be a non issue. Yeah the weight is a downer, but usually the most tiring thing isnt the weight, but the position you hold a weapon and it's center of gravity.
1:34 it's not P-P-S-H. it's P-P-Sh. As in, one letter. Pe-pe-sha in slavspeak. The Ш letter.
7:29 Cold... LMAOOOOOO
The best position of magazines:
In your gun.
The worst position of magazines:
Empty and at home.
7:05 bro didn't even try aiming at them 💀💀
Mostly they have their sights dead on the target both front and rear sights and still miss
You guys have really upped your animation since the last time I checked in. As a gun enthusiast, I appreciated all the detailed representations of WW2 guns :)
Pre body armour getting flat on the ground was vital, hence side or top magazines, or top loading stripper clips.
Fun fact:
One of the reason most primary infantry weapons featured internal magazines rather than detachable ones is the fear that infantrymen would lose or damage too many of the detachable ones. And they were correct. About 2/3 of the detachable magazines issues to troops were never returned to the armorer, or were returned in unusable condition. By the 1950s, however, detachable magazines were so cheap to manufacture that the cost of losing them was easily offset by their various merits.
If only history was taught like this in school. Who wouldn't love it😢
Kudos to you for taking the effort for such a video ❤
If only useful things were taught in school
I was taught how to load a musket in school the only thing they didn't teach was the measurements of black powder
@@darthmetallord Where was your school when I was still a kid, dammit
@@rommelthebreton funny thing is didn't even graduate that long ago 2014 and it was Ashwaubenon Elementary School in Green Bay they do Civil War reenactment every year or at least they used to not sure anymore
@@rommelthebreton I was in 5th grade they brought a real Cannon and everything one of the coolest moments of my life I was on the Confederate side
The big change for underside mounted mags came with the invention of double stack magazines
The top mounted magazine of the Bren Gun was perfect. It held 30 rounds. was easy for the assistant gunner to change and despite the offset sights the Bren is extremely accurate. The Bren went into service well before WWII and after being converted from .303 to 7.62 NATO stayed in service until the very early 2000s I trained on it and have used them and will take one into a fight any day. Give me a half an hour to train my Number 2 and we are good to go. The side magazine on the Sten and others has one advantage, when you are firing over the top of something it allows you a very low profile. On all of the SMGs DO NOT hold the magazine. You hold the magazine housing. The magazine housing on the MP40 is shaped so it is a hand grip. Holding the magazine is a feed failure that has found a place to happen. Many problems are caused by untrained or poorly trained troops
So which direction are you fed in?
The Pederson Device: yes
My grandfather always had a Thompson machine gun and samurai sword standing in the corner of the room I slept in as a kid. It always fascinated me.
2:28 my first time seeing the face behind simple history
#Metoo
Top loaded magazines also assist wrapon reliability, any debries that get into the magazine could be tipped out as the mag is moved into position, plus, any dirt that still remianed could fall straight through and out of the ejection port.
Btw German soldiers did not hold thier mp40s by the magazines like on the animations, as it would mess with the feed of the weapon. They would hold the base of the magazine
The top mag was especially good for a light machine gun where you might have an assistant loader it's easier for someone besides the shooter to load a top mag, but that would only apply for a lmg and isn't relevant on smg or mag fed assault rifle
top fed (ZB26, Bren, type99) and side fed (MG42, M1919, sten, type100) are both utilized for MGs. MG shooters usually fire proned and mounted therefore these locations don't make collisions against the ground.
For a stand firing weapon the usual (bottom) fed is the best choice. Also holding the magazine while firing is not a disadvantage but an advantage especially to short barreled weapons such as Tec9 or MP40. Their position determined that they can work as a good front grip for SMGs.
Ok hear me out
A side mounted magazine that curves back into the gun at a similar angle to the chauchat. The low profile of the magazine means it is far less likely to get caught on doorways and such, and also won't be too much of an imbalance. And even if it is you can just add a small counterweight to the opposite side. All the upsides but almost none of the downsides
What about behind the trigger tho? They have some good advantages like allowing the gun to be more compact, and with a longer barrel. Not only that, but it allows for better aiming while shooting since that the action is all happening in the rear, instead of the front.
You can also call it bullpup if you want
Bullpups just aren't as ergonomic as forward-mag rifles and the idea of having the working parts behind the trigger means they (generally) can't be fired left-handed - unless you enjoy hot brass in the face? Might not seem like much but it's a serious tactical failing - instead of "leaning" around a (right-hand) corner you have to expose your whole body in the open. Good luck with that....
Each has pros and cons. Top feeding weapons are assisted by gravity, dirt, water, and sand will also fall out of the action. Side feeding guns are great for shooting prone, and under feeders are best for mobility and ergonomics.
The elefant in the room is feeding type. Belt works best from side while drum magazin is almost unusable anywhere but from bottom - although there are exceptions like Lewis gun, but she has drum magazin lying flat on top and thus not obscuring aim.
PS: and then there are older styles of magazins like nondetachable clip-fed magazin (located under gun but fed from up) or tube magazines (either under barrel or in stock).
2:49 oh wow i didn’t picture you behind the voice I legit thought it was an old old man talking LOL 😂 I’m not putting you down by any means I in fact love your voice!!!
The owens gun was the best
Gravity fed assisted ammo
You can hug the ground better
A whole host of things you wouldnt know until you needed it
that animation was hilarious
imagine months of training
you land in normandy
you enter the building and hit the door frame with magazine of your sten gun making it fall out
germans lose their collective crap while laughing at you as someone shots you 4 times in the chest
The side line sights on the bren doesn't hinder aiming and when in position you can turn the weapon on it's side while still on bi-pod in order to get lower, you're forgetting a verticale feed means the mechanism lifts the weapon instead of pushing it diagonally,
Top mounted magazine are easier to load while standing up and firing from the waist Along with kneeling. Because you don't need to reach under the gun to load and the side sights aren't less accurate but they would be a little awkward for someone who hasn't used them before.
To be fair the stem gun was entirely designed for ambushes and use by commando and resistance units
God save the king intensities
I can't seem to find anything on this. What I can find is that it was designed to be a quick and cheap submachine gun. If you have a source, could you please provide so i may take a look.
All you need to clear a trench is to throw the sten gun into it! The impact will fire the gun for you
@@StrakanDocrusReakal The original sten was manufactured with that in mind, but later war variants were changed slightly to better serve the use of British Commandos and other country Resistance forces, the main change made was to allow feeding from captured MP40 magazines.
@Darthoblivion24 Yes, but by that logic, it wasn't entirely designed for ambushes and use by commandos and resistance units like the OC says.
The StG44 had a magazine so long that it all but prevented prone fire unless you dug an 18” hole in the ground first.
My favorite mag position is the one on the G11 rifle.
There is minor mistake, BREN is SMG created by Czechoslovakia, not by British. British just bought license to be able to produce it.
LMG not SMG and there are some differences, it's based off the czech design but its not just a carbon copy
@@crumpetcommandos779it should had been both mention. And should had been Czechoslovak flag with UK one.
During WW2, grabbing sub machine guns by the magazine wasn’t causing the jams, it was a way soldiers combated the feed issues of magazines at the time.
And also solution for side mounted magazines getting stuck on doors, hold the weapon sideways so the mag is facing downwards or upwards
Worth noting as for drum mags, bottom fed is the only way they'll work. Getting drums to work from the side or top is basically impossible due the weight, bulk, and complexity of said drums. Hence another reason why drum magazines are not practical.
Russia's DP28 says hi
Tho to be fair, those use "disk mags" that happen to be shaped like a drum and they work completely different.
@@TheHammerGuy94 Looks more like a pancake to me. XD
This is a classic youtube title example. Videos titled "worst" get more views, while actual video opens as best positions
What about the saddle magazine of the German Mg15. I know it's limited use in infantry, but I'm wondering if there were any advantages to that design, or if a regular belt feed was better. I know the saddle drum was designed for aircraft, so it made less mess inside the aircraft gunner position, but would a quick change saddle, be better without an assistant gunner?
It was basically another top-feeder magazine and it didn't have any real advantages outside of aircraft. It had a high capacity, but it was also heavy, complex, a pain to load and unreliable. There is a reason they abandoned those magazines for the dedicated MGs like the MG 34 and MG 42. Those were just belt-fed weapons with the magazine being a hollow chunk of metal to hold the belt in place.
Credits to the guy for the thumbs up at 5:23
Call of Duty players adding a drum mag to the M1 Garand: Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is?
the best magazine location that you can have is a full one just ready to go. FIGHT ME!
Come get some!!! Lol
* *Points to the Cheuchat* *
"And then there's THIS piece of Cheushit..."
While prone with a under-mounted magazine you can tilt the gun to the side tho.
Dirt and sighting were still a concern back then from the lessons learned during the first world war
Fun fact: the MP40 was designed to he held by the magazine well and is considered to hang one of the best magwell grip setups.
As for reloading a Bren while standing, it was intended to be fired from the hip while standing, not tje shoulder. This was due to the pre-war doctrine of "walking fire," and a major reason for the ZB-26 and later Bren to use this configuration. An assistant gunner would accompany the gunner, keeping the gun loaded, which is easier to do with a top-mounted magazine.
An more important disadvantage with side mounted magazines. the inertie caused by de mass and feed off cartridges will give an POI shift to the right you have to compensate.easier
There is another noticeable top feed modern production gun : CS/LS6 with a helical magazine, also some other experimental type with helical magazines as well
The top mounted magazine is easier is for another person to reload, which is kinda important in crew-served weapons.
Don't forget the AN-94 I think that has a canted mag insert that never took off
I love American, Japanese and German WWII firearms 🇺🇲🇯🇵🇩🇪❤
@rottingravensblood9106 yeah especially the Arisaka rifle and the Type 99 LMG
@@redrocket604Japanese submachine gun are rare
@jamesedwardladislazerrudo1378 Yeah, they are, so they mostly use bolt action rifles, light and heavy machine guns
@@redrocket604 Submachine gun are responsible for failed Banzai charge due to spray and pray
Ok, but what about diagonal magazines? They weren't mentioned anywhere in the video.
Speaking of firearms, can you please do an article about SIG Sauer’s new assault weapon for the US Army, The XM7 (Previously known as MCX Spear, and XM5)?
I wish there were more side loaders and tube guns like the STEN still being made.
be the change you wish to see in the world
@@chucksneed1264
easier said than done
I’ve literally been using that exact sound byte of the M1 ping as my text tone for months 😂
Not just the BAR, the M16 originally had a 20 round magazine so it wouldn't get in the way when shooting from the prone position. 30 round mags are way more common today but during the Vietnam war 20 round mags were standard.
He forgot DP-28 and Lewis Gun!
8:17 there is actually a South African anti materiel rifle called the ntw-20 that uses a side facing magazine
Another detriment of side mounted magazines I read about is that there is no comfortable way to carry them in a sling. You will have either the magazine, the pistol grip, the charging handle or the sights digging into your back no matter what way you carry it.
7:25. I'm dying 🤣 I've been watching your videos for years and I love when you throw little gags into your videos.
In terms of practicality, the top-loading method is definitely underrated. Increased reliability, gravity-assisted feeding, and a lower profile when prone. Reloading inefficiencies are honestly negligible when paired with the right doctrine.
If your gun has a pistol grip(or even foregrip), unless your mag is much longer than the grip, you don't actually have to prone higher (say, a Scar-H or HK417，even an AR mag is just slightly longer than your pistol grip when loaded)
For top loaded guns, your minimum height is still the pistol grip height.
@e0001030 huh
Not really because what do you do about aiming? Do you put it on the centerline and ruin the day of either right-handed or left-handed shooters by offsetting the sights? Or do you develop a horribly complex magazine for it that.
@@emberfist8347 Offset the sights to the right. It allows better ambidextrous aiming, and doesn't snag your webbing.
@@somerandofilipino6957 It isn’t better for ambidextrous shooting as now the right handed people suffer.
They need to add this mechanic in video games
Remember COD: world at war?
Battlefield 1 has examples of all 3 mounting positions I'm pretty sure
God smiles on me, i was looking this up yesterday.
Ty simple history
Could you do a video on allied vs central power trenches in ww1
Been asking for a bit, hope one day you see it
a big issue that's brushed off with side magazines is how the center of gravity changes as you empty it.
that thumbnail could be any weapon from COD Vanguard💀
Great to see the Owen SMG included. The Australian Owen SMG had a top feed magazine; US Marines did their best to lay their hands on one; MacArthur was keen to have them issued to US forces. However, the Australian Lithgow firearms arsenal did not have the capacity to produce more than enough for Australian forces. This is the weapon that Aussie troops (mostly inexperienced undertrained territorials) used on the torrential mountainous jungle Kokoda trail which threw back the Japanese 🇯🇵 Imperial Army and marine to the northern coast of New Guinea; the beginning of the end for Japan’s previous mere months unexpectedly speedy invasion through South East Asia, the Dutch East Indies and Melanesia in the South West Pacific theatre .