Solder Vs Crimping | Why is Soldering So HATED In Motorsport Wiring?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 พ.ค. 2024
- When wiring we have the chance to improve upon our OEM loom, but why are soldered connections considered a downgrade, and if you must solder, how do you do it with the smallest amount of risk for failure?
In this [TECH TALK] filmed while preparing the SR86 harness (the SR20VET swapped Toyota 86) Andre runs us through the implications of using soldered connections in a motorsport environment and as a result why crimping is preferred. We're talking joining wires together here, not working on a PCB.
But don't worry, even if you find yourself in a situation where you must solder or despite the risk it is something you wish to do anyway, Andre outlines of the things you can do to help mitigate that risk of failure by running through a few common places in a motorsports loom where it is your only option. Solder sleeves (not the horrible knock off ones!) and potting are discussed in relation to this along with an extra consideration potting requires in relation to spares.
Hopefully, with this knowledge, you can make your own decision on what technique you use while understanding of the risks and issues you are trying to avoid.
0:00 - Intro
0:59 - Crimping Correctly
2:00 - Soldering Correctly
2:20 - The Weakness of Solder
2:36 - Mitigating Risk
3:02 - Exceptions To The Rule
3:39 - Potting
4:00 - How To Make It Safer
5:19 - The Downside of Potting
5:28 - Soldered Connectors
6:04 - The Golden Rule
6:11 - Terminating Shielded Cable
7:18 - Solder Sleeve
8:13 - The Advantage Of Solder Sleeves
8:56 - Crimp Where You Can
9:18 - Outro
Connector part numbers:
MS3470 32P
MS3476 32S
MS3470 21P
MS3476 21S
Want to learn more about motorsport wiring? Come along to the next FREE live lesson: www.bit.ly/WireLive
Website: www.hpacademy.com
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#highperformanceacademy #techtalk #learntotune #enginebuilding101 #dontletthesmokeout #wiring101 #crimpinainteasy #soldervscrimp #crimping #soldering - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
!["This Could Have Been Prevented" | 650HP SR20VE Swap | SR86 EP 7 [#BUILD]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/OLgQ31RMiT4/mqdefault.jpg)
!["This Could Have Been Prevented" | 650HP SR20VE Swap | SR86 EP 7 [#BUILD]](/img/tr.png)
One argument against crimping that pops up often is the cost of entry, which these days is surprisingly affordable when comparing to the cost of a quality soldering iron and materials. Learn more here: www.hpacademy.com/technical-articles/crimping-on-a-budget-tools-and-materials/ - Taz.
guys, please stabilize the images of Andre talking , my soldered connections broke due to the vibration while watching.
Fair call. I believe we had an issue with the stabilisation not enabled on this video. I apologise to your failed solder joints - Would never have happened if you'd crimped though 😉- Andre
@@hpa101 crimping during an earthquake would be no small task.
Definitely! The camera was so shaky I half-expected a money shot 💰🍆💦
I only use solder for mid wire repairs. However I always use a marine grade heat shrink over the joint which is lined with adhesive and fully seals the connection
Non insulated butt connectors and solid crimps work even better with proper heat shrink. Open barrel crimps also work great. Also faster and easier to get into tight quarters for repairs.
I love marine grade heat shrink.
My wiring mainly consists of tailights on container chassis.
So nothing fancy. I just drop a piece of HS twist the wires together.
Then slide the HS back over the joint. Its a quick fix at 2 am.
Those $3 blowtorch lighters work great for heat shrink.
It took me a while to accept this, but you guys are spot on with crimps that use the correct tools vs. soldering. Emphasis on quality crimp tools, not the $10.99 pair at the neighborhood parts house. Great points all around!
A terminal salesman wants told me that if I used his terminals and cramping holes the wire would break before it pulled out of the crimp. I took him up on it, he was right the wire broke every time. It never pulled out of the crimp.
I only household grade wire nuts with about half a pound of electrical tape.
Try using bubblegum to seal the wire nut. Not only does it seal out water but it helps hold it better
I'm a certified air frame and powerplant mechanic currently working for a company that does aircraft electrical work and I regularly use all of the techniques shown in this video. Both solder and crimp joints work under the caveat that they are done correctly. Both will fail if their respective weaknesses aren't accounted for. I've encountered both poorly made unsupported solder joints that crumbled at the slightest disturbance, and over crimped or under crimped pins that snapped off or slipped out respectively.
I read quite a few comments for one or the other and against one or the other. This is proper of any type of automotive work. One thing I can say is that no matter where you stand on any something vs something, when you argue your point the weakest offence is say the other one sucks with nothing back how your stand is better.
i use both crimp and solder (for different circumstances) ... that said, a lot of people simply just suck at soldering
I was thinking about this too. Fighter jets have much more vibration and thousands of solder joints. Besides, crimping also creates a failure point where the wire enters the connector.
MANY thanks for the vdeo, it feels so good to see someone explaing topic sooo nicely and neatly!
When I was in electronics training at Redstone Arsenal they stressed using anti-wicking tools when soldering and proper support of wiring harnesses. As you said about crimping, it's all about proper tools and technique. If soldering is good enough for missiles then it should last in a car.
We don't wire single use missiles, but maybe if those guys were working on race cars that will drive for 40 hours or so non-stop (pre testing for 24 hour endurance racing for example) they might do things differently too.
Impossible to say though since we're just outlining what is done in motorsports and why without trying to tell anyone in any other application what that should and shouldn't be doing.
You are correct about using the right technique. You can go horribly wrong with crimping too if it's not done right.
Hope you enjoy your projects whichever way you personally decide to do things 🤘 - Taz.
@@hpa101 although the single use missiles are mission critical and cost quite a bit more than most race cars. Opinions like this become frustrating for engineers when a customer questions use of solder of crimp and thinks we are wrong. They have watched a 10min video and think they know everything on the subject - forget the 20 years of real world experience successfully using soldered joints in harsh environments/mission critical applications. Better perhaps to say that its easier to do a good crimp with the right tools than a solder joint.
@@hpa101 -- Well, what did they use for the Voyager spacecraft? It's been going since 1977, so whatever they used, it must work...
It's been quite a few decades, but I can't remember a single piece of electronic equipment that I worked on in the Navy using crimped connectors. In fact, I don't even remember there being a crimping tool in our tool locker... I can most definitely remember doing a lot of soldering though... Of course, it's entirely possible that there were crimped ring terminals on some of the equipment, but it would have been covered by heat shrink, so whether it was soldered or crimped would not be readily apparent...
Maybe someone who worked on the aviation side (i.e. an AE) who reads this could relay on how things were on the naval aircraft...
@@hpa101 -- You might find the standards for NASA soldering interesting... nepp.nasa.gov/docuploads/06AA01BA-FC7E-4094-AE829CE371A7B05D/NASA-STD-8739.3.pdf
I don't know about naval aircraft, but airliners use lots of solder sleeves. A typical example would be a differential pair being fed into an instrument or interface unit - the signal wires are normally crimped, but the shield is connected with a solder sleeve with a flying lead and that's then put into a crimped pin to put into the connector. This needs a connector with a long backshell or support frame because you want to ensure the point the cable is clamped is behind the point the solder sleeve is attached. @@CurmudgeonExtraordinaire
I just recently tried those solder sleeve unions and they're fantastic. I can't argue with your points, solder does have its limitations but it does allow you to maintain nearly the same wire thickness, if that matters for the application. The crimping and wiring in general you guys do looks to be top notch so I would stick with those methods.
Great video guys. I love wiring and happen to work in aviation so this was very informative ✌🏻
Great topic and reinforces my own observation over the years.
I love that trick for soldering the wires to the terminals of that sensor. I'd never considered that before, but now I know how I can fix my grandpa's alternator charging issue.
Glad it helped Freedo! Hope you get him back up and running :) - Taz.
Yeah, I can dismount the alternator, solder the wires in place, set some epoxy, crimp on some Deutsch terminals, slap on the connectors, put everything back together, and call it a day.
@@hpa101 have potted for high end race applications (trophy trucks). Haven't used the bent wire technique though.
In my experience. The part is put in a mill, the connector is milled so you have access to the pins from the side. The terminals are used without the connector (crimping terminals onto the wires without the male connector). Slid on one by one, soldered through access window. Heat shrink over each individually. Then your DR-25. Then strain relieve it internally by putting the harness/wires into the connector slightly where it stays in place, wire kinda U'd. Tape up the access you cut with the mill. Used RT125. Set it topside of connector up, only pot about 1/3 at a time without letting harden, use a heat gun. Each time it settles and removes any air. On last pass do a nice cap/finish with heat gun and let it cure. Then finish the other side and bench test it. Zip tie tab may be jb welded into place for an external strain relief.
Little more specifics to it but you get the idea. Survives in some of the harshest conditions you'll see.
I used to work in Telecoms, and we had systems that worked for 40+ years. All long life systems were solder joint. "Army" 1 + 4 systems were "portable" systems working in the World War 2. These were transported by military (primitive) transport and carried on working without issue. These were sold off after the war ...and at least 1 system I know about was still in use in 1980....all soldered. And guess what, equipment running 24 x 7 x 365 is permanently vibrating (60 or 50 HZ and harmonics). More modern equipment moved to wire wrap, similar "cold" weld as crimp joints...but much better quality. That is until you hit a expensive tool that does not torque properly....then you end up with a rack of dry joints, with the only fix is to solder all. Most auto crimp connectors do not have enough mechanical strength to actually "cold" weld. Pull a few apart and see, just loose wires. Crimp connectors can also be oxidized before use...causing long term problems. Crimps are used in manufacture by OEM's as faster and cheaper than solder. Low volume crimps (the ones you buy) are also typically different to OEM high volume. Good solder requires temperature controlled soldering iron, good solder with good flux. None of which is generally used by people working on cars. There are actually mil. standards for soldering. My 1995 Yamaha has factory solder joints that are still perfect.
That sounds like a lot of sense to me. Also with my experience as a machinist, I would imagine that it would be impossible to eliminate stress raisers entirely at the crush interface.
You can't compare telecom equipment vibrations to a 500 HP engine vibrating or racing through Baja. Look up what the budget for an F1 team, they aren't buying their tools from O'Reillys. Backyard mechanics use junk tools to solder and crimp but he's talking about professionals who have tens of thousands of dollars in personal tools because they buy the best available.
@@deckmonkey1459 Looks like 145 million budget for F1 team, US military 738 Billion. I would say if they thought it was the right choice they would spend the money on the right tools, they have a MIL spec for soldering for a reason.
BTW what is the service life on a F1 car vs a Tank or airplane ? which would see more use/abuse over life as well see ALL weather conditions ? Just thought i would mention it.
@@lastcreations8845 that budget comparison means nothing. They are not racing, and they are certainly not spending all that money on one project. You will find plenty of examples in history of military spending involving shortcuts to fit within their budget too, whereas you won't find an F1 team trying to save a few bucks on wiring given poor performance means loss of income from sponsors etc... In contrast, a military that performs poorly would probably get a bigger budget 😂
At the end of the day though, it's still a pointless and flawed comparison - Taz.
@@lastcreations8845 i agree. Although racing sounds like it stresses components its not nearly as stressful as aircraft are on certain parts. Race cars will never see the longevity of aircraft. Lets drop the car from 10 feet upteen times a day and see how well it works. There is a use for both crimps and solder but frankly solder just does a better job in some spots. However crimps work better in others. Its really application.
No matter how good your crimp if dampness get in you will eventually get corrosion and high resistance. A proper solder joint inside a heatshrink has never failled me. I had to replace many factory crimps with solder joints in 4x4 vehicles over the last 15 years
You would have issues with your soldered connection if you left it flapping in the wind and didn't seal it either, that is not an equal comparison.
Note we're also doing things better than OEM here, they have different considerations when building a car for the road as we do when building a car for the track/competition.
You might be keen to hear a bit of what Cody Phillips has to say if you're into 4x4ing. This guy is wiring competition Ultra4 and side-by-side vehicles as well as drag cars etc: th-cam.com/video/L05Ud8NztZY/w-d-xo.html
At the end of the day you can do whatever you like with your own wiring for sure, we're just telling you what is used in motorsport applications and why - Taz.
@@hpa101 but you guys are doing the same when comparing your connector to soldered joints constantly referring to the need for mechanical strain relief because soldering bad but every crimped on pin in those connectors has a built in strain relief hence why each needs to be crimped twice once for the electrical connection on the bare conductors then again on the insulation for mechanical strain relief don't do that second crimp and you end up with the same problem the soldered joint has
100% agree with you.
@@shaynegadsden not quite, all things equal (including strain relief) solder has a different issue. I think it has been explained enough in the video already and you can reference it elsewhere if you're not a fan of what we're stating, this isn't something we have discovered or decided alone for shits and giggles - Taz.
@@hpa101 - Being in the electronics/vehicle electrical business for more than 30 years myself, you are both right... But to be fair, any hand made solder connection does not have the strain relief that the double crimp connector has.
I always used solder connections for precise sealing and anti-corrosion purposes. Where salt and other terrible things are concerned, any tinned item is WAY MORE likely not to corrode when tinned with good old lead PB based solder. I still use the lead stuff and not the crap ROHS solder provided today.
There is also one thing I would point out, I have some older anti-corrosion stuff in cans I bought that was military that works really well. (I have a lot of it) Another commercially available product is LPS-3 Rust Inhibitor. It forms a yellow brown waxy film on things when sprayed on or applied by brush or dipping. I have used this especially in RF connectors where the surfaces are silver plated with much success even a decade after being applied. Then heat shrink over it. It never goes hard and is the best to scare away the rusty or corroded monsters in any electrical environment... Especially the dreaded trailer connector and the bottoms of OEM fuse boxes.
Loved what you had to say... Try using a good solder gun. So much safer, quick and solid connections. Its a different kind of quick reliable connection and you rarely get burned :) The old Wellers are my favorite. I have more than 10 of them in various sizes.
very good explanation, soldering makes a great electrical connection, but movement and vibration at the edge of a soldered joint is mechanically weak. Hence the potting to move the mechanical stress point away from the electrical joint.
The best Wiring Harness on Race Cars I've ever had the pleasure to work with were from J.A.S. And although 99.9% of the time we don't solder in racing. My boss did it one time. Had a crank sensor wire get pinched after a driver hit a tire barrier at the previous race. Couldn't get a replacement in time for the next race as the sensor was still good and the boss wanted to keep our spares for the track. The way the harness ran it made crimping the wire a no go. I mentioned, "why don't we solder it?" I got the great big lecture about "Never Solder Anything in Racing..etc..etc." It was Friday and we were loading out that Sat. He told me to go home and that he'll take care of it. Came into work on Sat to load out and seen the wire was repaired. I was curious and asked him. "How did you repair it?" He kinda off hand said. "I soldered it." I laughed and said. "But we don't solder in Professional Racing!" He laughed and said "We do what we gotta do, Send it!" Later on he told me since it only had to make it through that next race weekend before we got a replacement harness he wasn't worried but as a rule of thumb I should never solder any wiring. Which is a shame because I love how clean a perfect solder looks when repaired.
EDIT: As a side note, when crimping the right tool plays a major part as with anything automotive. First time I ever used a pair of good crimpers and seen how almost perfect every crimp was I threw away my cheap ones and spent good money on a set. And after my experience with
Deutsch Connectors in racing I picked up a good kit and tool. And when I rebuilt the Engine Harness for my 97 Comp T/A I upgraded as many of them as I could to that style. Unfortunately some of the GM sensors still require the old Weather Pack Style and they just don't seem to hold up to heat cycles as well. Im replacing them at least every 3 years because they get brittle and break. "Turbo LT1 and I'm still fighting Under hood Temp issues to this day. But my IAT's are good so its not my 1st concern"
Nice video. Same is true with Marine wiring. The ABYC standards do not allow solder connections except in one general case -the use of solder plugs for connecting large gauge wire to terminals such as battery wire to ring terminals. The solder plugs come sized to the wire and include flux. Another problem with solder connections were the results of poor soldering, i.e. cold solder joints. This problem is similar to those using cheap squish crispers. That is user error.
Thank you for the video. What is your opinion on the NASA cable splicing technique using twisting and solder?
Invaluable information! Thank you for sharing!
Glad you enjoyed it Michael, cheers for the comment - Taz.
This is very interesting. I’ve soldered religiously for years due to recurrent corrosion issues I suffered with crimps; however, I’m admittedly a damn terrible crimper. I haven’t suffered any failures thus far; however, I certainly see your point. If a crimp joint is completely water tight, It’ll likely last indefinitely. I do always use adhesive lined shrink tubing on every connection I can get it onto. I’ll have to check on some better tools as crimped connections would save my a lot of time
5:36 That was awesome! Thanks! Thanks for the video!!!
When I was being taught, military spec electrical joints were only mechanical, and never soldered. When it came to solder, we always used one with the highest silver content we could get, for better conductivity. Cardas solder is the best by far IMO.
OEM's use crimps where possible because it provides an acceptable, serviceable, easy to replicate and cheap connection. soldering has the capability to provide a higher surface contact area and is mechanically superior to crimps for strength. however, it doesn't do well in vibration prone environments where the end of the solder joint is prone to being a point of movement. ironically, crimps have an even worse contact point for stress risers. the booted connections provide sufficient strain relief which can 100% mitigate this, while soldered connections require skill to mitigate stress.
in all actuality, do what you want. crimps require a higher entry cost for price, and aren't as cheap to make as solder joints, but their serviceability is a strong point. bad crimps and bad solder will both fail. OEM's also design harnesses with more testing than any motorsport team will ever put a car through. heat and stress mitigation rules still apply to all electrical, regardless of race or a car with a 20 year service life.
as for potting connections, I've seen some people use a crimped pin pushed over the contact, then filled with epoxy. if you're pedantically opposed to soldering, this is a possible solution.
fine, so long as you take the resistance AND FRAGILITY OF SOLDER INTO ACCOUNT
Youcould also ask.y.s. why they only crimp in avionics
Thats it bro.. you are totally correct
Seems like "potting" would cause a concerning amount of heat to any given sensor via pins into said sensor internals.. having to get the pin hot enough to take solder properly...
@@pseudosmith9945 most electronics will tolerate soldering heat. If you're an idiot and don't know how to solder and cook things, that'll cause damage. But just soldering bare wire to a pin won't put enough heat in to hurt anything.
@@davelittle8852 avionics uses it because much of the legislation and regulations were created around being sued. The technology in the 50s was also junk for material sciences compared to what we have now.
Great video. Helpful information with rational reasoning. It all makes sense. Please get a tripod though. The shaky cam thing is distracting.
Great very detailed video
I would argue one point however, you are correct about solder wicking but that's part of the soldering process. I was trained to solder to military specs and part of the examination is to make sure the solder has not wicked into the jacket. If you do it properly it won't happen. Easy on the heat and only apply as much solder as necessary.
I swear by soldering but there are two situations where I would use crimps - high heat environments and on large wires. But in high vibration I would solder every time with marine grade heatshrink with glue in it, crimp connections are without a doubt worse in high vibration environments. Also crimps are also prone to corrosion whereas solder won't corrode. I work in marine and all the time I see corroded wires where water has wicked all the way through the wire but the solder joint is still intact.
So many (too many) people do not utilize proper soldering techniques [not being snarky, or judgemental... simply a fact] In a very broad sense, I do agree that solder connections can be an unacceptable due to great variability in the connection. I value the gas tight weld of a crimped, especially with certain metals, gauge wires, multi conductor and less heat resistant (non Teflon) dialectics. I will do multiple things when and where I can I crimp, solder and heat shrink, especially on ring terminal connectors.
I really like the quality of you work, as shown, the connector that was soldered, epoxy filled and heatshrinked (very beautiful finish product) Those are some wiring harnesses to be proud of... KUDOS
When was a Mil Spec soldering/electronic assembly instructor in the 60's , we had reps from crimped connector companies demonstrating their wares. The key to reliable crimped connectors is to constantly check and recalibrate crimping tools to be sure that crimps are accomplished exactly as required so that the connection was electrically and physically reliable and not subject to deterioration from environmental conditions. It is debatable whether a crimped connection is, in reality , more reliable than a properly soldered connection without " wicking" problems.
That was a brilliant video, I need to upgrade my tools as my crimps suck!
This might be a helpful place to start if you need any ideas - www.hpacademy.com/technical-articles/crimping-on-a-budget-tools-and-materials/ - Taz
Application is such an overlooked yet important thing.
Hm interesting, I repair ATVs, and I usually see crimps, I do sometimes solder, on some applications, I have done some testing a few years ago, I put the connectors in salt water, and the trick is to use a bit of silicon and double heat shrink, 2 cm on each side of the plastic insolation, and have never seen it corroded if done that way.
Great video
I nearly exclusively use heat shrink solder sleeves/connectors covered with a thick wall glue coated heat shrink. I have yet to find a single connection properly made using reputable connectors fail. When done properly you cannot find a better attachment method for stranded connectors 18g-10g. 8g and below use hydraulic crimping or exothermic welding period.
Interesting. I strictly use crimping except for the very particular case where I was unable to get a pig tail to wire into the harness for a repair. So I soldered the wire back into the connector where it broke off the pin
All DB connectors are available in mil spec with crimp pins. Re the solder sleave, in my high reliability instrumentation wiring I strip the cable back further and unbraid the screen then use heat shrink to make it a very flexible drain wire, easy, and there is zero discontinuity in the screen conductor.
I think it comes down to using proper techniques, equipment and most importantly strain relief/immobilization on the wires and connectors. Crimping can produce consistent results every time as long as you follow the directions on the box. Soldering requires a bit of skill and can lead to different results even when done by the same person.
Great tech content, good work.
1980-1982 many of my soldered connections were destined for space flight. Skill development and certification was a key factor and part of that was limiting the wicking of solder beyond the area it was needed so it couldn’t wick up up the wire under the insulation. Many pin and socket connectors were solder cup type. Of the crimped connections a very expensive calibrated crimper was required. Many of these connections were then potted also.
I’m old now but if it is meant to be permanent and especially if it will be exposed to heat and humidity, it gets soldered, cleaned, and covered. Usually heat shrink.
Soldered connections are not immune to heat and humidity. Just like a crimped connection, they should be sealed - Taz.
I haven't looked in a while, but crimp db9 should be easy to find, and Neutrik used the have crimp XLR connectors up to either 6 pins or maybe 8 pins. The crimpers needed for the db series are normally several hundred dollars each, which is why most of these get soldered. Strain relief on the shell should prevent most issues with the solder joint at the pins.
Around here I've been trying to convince some old-schoolers for several years now of the superiority of crimping. I believe that most of the bad rep of crimping is due to inferior or clearly incorrect tools. Lineman's pliers seem to have been commonly used to crimp pretty much everything and I've come across a lot of connections that have been crimped with side cutters even.
You mention that wire strands can fracture over time in a soldered joint, at the end of the solder 'wicking'. It seems like that is due to a stiffness difference where vibration could eventually cause the strands to fatigue and crack. However, a connector also produces a stiffness difference, which could also cause strand fatigue/cracking over time. Is that not the case? In either case, wouldn't you mitigate the risk of fatigue failure with heat shrink tubing that extends beyond the ends of the solder 'wicking' (or of course beyond the ends of the connector); the heat shrink tubing would give you a more gradual transition in the wire strands between the stiffness of the solder or connector and the stiffness of the more flexible wire strands.. Or am I offbase?
Excellent video, thanks!
I'm looking to get a nice set of crimping tools, ratcheting and non-ratcheting and accessories, could you link the tools that you showed in the video, or a recommendation?
Thanks again.
Edit: I just saw the link.
No worries Steve, I'll leave the article here too just for others that might read your comment: www.hpacademy.com/technical-articles/crimping-on-a-budget-tools-and-materials/
For the live lesson the link is here: www.hpacademy.com/introduction-to-wiring/ - Taz.
Now I have ratcheting crimpers, I also use a specific technique I started 30+ yrs ago of crimp, solder and shrink tube and with new glue/sealer shrink tube I'm having awesome results.
Now my plans on race cars is no shrink tube so driver/crew cab see any broken wires if needed and a small tool box with crimpers and terminals stay in the car properly secured. I've had to repair specific wires at line several times with great success. E en loaned tools out before.
Wires shouldn't be breaking often enough to warrant not sealing them, I think this is something you might be able to avoid.
Double check your strain relief techniques and if you're not already try something like Raychem DR25 for shrink tube along with moulded boots for your connectors and breakouts. Ensuring your routing is on point might help too if the issues are caused by the location of the wiring and there are alternatives that might take a bit more time but save you this headache.
Things sometimes do you wrong, but as the saying goes if you're planning for something to fail, you're failing to plan.
Tools in the car are great though. For some racing disciplines a basic tool kit is required as if the driver can't get the car back to the pits himself for the pit crew to work on it then it's a DNF, so that is great - Taz.
Great explanation good tempo Was very thorough opens my eyes to wiring possibilities on my project
Soldering repairs can be done in such a way that when the solders does eventually break, because it will, the conductors will stay in contact with each other. It involves stripping one end further than the other and only soldering the first 1/4" to 3/8" together and folding it back over to the tip of the soldered joint is a the insulation of the wire that was stripped longer and the bare copper wire should be touching for most the length. Then using a good quality heat shrink that contains glue to both hold the wire in place and weather proof it. This is a technique I was taught by a automotive manufacturer and I have used for over 10 year in both heavy equipment and automotive wiring repairs.
When I build harnesses or replace harness ends I do use crimp connectors and the proper tools for those connectors, either DT connectors and the many variations that use the same pin and sockets or GM weather pack connectors. If anyone has a link the get a kit for Denso type connector repair kits I would be very grateful.
Well, my 3D printer used to fail and halt for no reason at times after being used for a while. I found out it was because of soldered end of wires and soldered cable extensions. Crimped everything, not one failure afterwards. Although solder looks connected and whole piece, there can be microscopic cracks introducing resistance.
I use to hate crimping, until I found a good crimping tool. Proper tooling matters a lot for crimping!
it's also important to match the crimping tool to the connectors being crimped.
I agree with your all of your statements and I would like to contribute to your efforts of motorsport wiring with a few comments that I believe are valuable to the subject. Mainly, solder prevents corrosion in the joint. No matter how well you isolate it, heat shrink it or else, a joint is going to present interruption of conductor material and therefore present a potential corrosion failure point. Also, the heat shrink insulation is not as strong as the cable insulation, especially when subjected to oils and other chemicals and fluids. Eventually heat shrink fails and corrosion occurs inside the joins. Corrosion can also creep up inside the wire. I agree that you can crimp with enough force to produce an initial connection that is stronger that the parent conductor, however these are still two chemically different separate materials and corrosion WILL slip in between them eventually. This is not to say crimping is bad, in my opinion the best way for pins for example is solder and crimping. I first crimp the naked wire to the pin, then I solder the wire tip towards the front of the pin with a solder only wide enough to seal the front of the cable completely and bond it to the pin material, and then lastly I crimp the wire insulation on to the pin. I do insulation crimp last, in order to avoid melting it and solder only the wire tip to prevent solder from wicking up the wire. Cheers.
There are pros and cons for everything but realistically in a motorsport application vibration is a much, much bigger and more immediate threat than corrosion no matter how good or bad of a job you do with your insulation.
There are many types of heat shrink these days with the type used in a professional harness being resistant to fuel, oils and even brake fluid you're in safe hands when it is correctly applied in this respect.
You are free to do things differently and cheers for sharing your thoughts, this is what the motorsports industry does and why is all - Taz.
Thanks for replying :) Depending on the motorsport application, threats might vary. For example off roaders and cross motorbikes might have bigger corrosion concerns. Fact of the matter is that no matter what you choose, it needs to be correctly applied in order for it to work. Another benefit of crimping is that it is much faster and cheaper for the automotive manufacturers and therefore you will see soldered wiring harnesses from the factory only on some exotics.
Do you have any examples of corrosion issues with motorsport looms that were crimped? I'm not talking about an OEM loom in something that is now used as a competition vehicle, but an actual professionally constructed harness.
Renvale who build the majority of F1 harnesses have unlimited time and budget and they crimp. They do it because it gives the most reliable results, not because it's faster or cheaper to be fair.
It's an interesting topic for sure for what seems like such a small decision on the surface eh! - Taz.
Super interesting and useful. I used to create custom harnesses for home brew R&D PC-based PFI systems for dyno use in a university setting. Soldering was our gold standard, but I appreciate your point of view that soldering could wick up the wire and lead to a stress concentration. The crappy $10 auto store crimpers and terminals frequently pulled out. We just never knew where to buy good crimpers or terminals. This is good stuff. Currently I'm restoring a '70 Chevy C10 pickup truck and I'm considering how to maintain an original style harness. Not race-spec, but stock-looking and reliable. Any recommendations for terminals and tools?
Use Nitto Denko non adhesive black plastic harness loom tape for a stock factory look
I solder all my connections, even previously crimped OEM connections.
But careful attention must be paid to mechanical support of the connection as stated in the video.
I achieve this using heat shrink tube applied twice on each connection. A small size first and a larger size over that for 3/4 inch down the wires or as required and covering any part of the connector that will be exposed when in place to also provide electrical insulation.
I've had connections done in this fashion last 35 years plus and maintain good electrical conductivity and be free from breakages.
OEM crimps often don't break but resistance at the point of crimping increases over time.
This probably doesn't matter in a race car, you'll be building a new one before resistance problems arise.
Both have their place though I agree crimping is usually better. Repairing mid-wire insulation rub through I prefer crimps. Though to connect a battery cable to the battery terminal clamp I like to solder it for more contact area with the clamp. I've had battery cables pull out of the clamp and soldering has always held it securely enough in addition to the clamp for multiple years.
I solder everything on my car, truck and boat. Solder and adhesive heat shrink tube. No issues. Ever. But I do see your point. That jumbo jet that stays in the air has most of its wiring crimped. They only use solder splices in certain connections.
That's why there is a NASA guideline on how to SOLDER splices, he talks BS.
I wish I asked this earlier, is crimping still preferable for splicing aftermarket fuel pump wires into factory connections? I got ratcheting crimpers w/ the correct jaws for nylon heat shrink connectors. Seems good, right?
Hahaha using the correct crimp, correct tooling and the best of the best... Soldering with the cheapest iron that shenzhen could deliver
2nd cheapest. You always go one up from the bottom to be safe ya know - Taz.
@@hpa101 Tools don't make the mechanic.. I have a few of them I'd collected over the years and modded for.. reasons.. but I do enjoy having my adjustable Weller bench model at home.. upgrade when you can is my best recommendation for anyone, but technique is paramount. Here's a skill to learn, SMD replacement with a small heat gun, give it a try.. guaranteed to frustrate for at least the first few days.
thermal wire wrap have yet to be discovered in the car community
@@GasketManzrevenge Somewhat true for soldering, demonstrably false for crimping.
@@404Anymouse I have to laugh.. you've never seen over crimped or using the wrong jaw set? Any three fingered football fkg monkey can do that.. is that what you're saying? That's what I hear when using "demonstrably wrong".
Technique in every aspect of life is what brings success. I tire of repairing repairs.
You can get more or less fancy crimpable d-sub connectors, used a lot when worked in building automations eons ago. Amp 58372-1 is a pricey tool though.
OE manufacturers use crimping or soldering according to what saves them the most money and survives beyond the warranty period. There are some applications where one or the other is preferred and I have seen where soldering a crimped connection is done.
Having just been pulling out and doing massive surgery of my harness in situ and also building new looms and branches - as well as redoing work done by myself and others over the years that just arnt to a good standard; i've learned so much doing the HPA courses. Its only just a daily street car - but its about trying to and applying best practice where you can. I would have never had the confidence other wise.
Dude you should look into DMC M22520/2-01 DSUB crimpers - haven't soldered a DSUB in years. MIL-DTL-24308 pins are 20 or 22AWG depending on shell size but the crimpers can be adjusted to crimp down to smaller AWG wire inserted into the contacts.
I always dip the wire in Vaseline (its dielectric ) before crimping to stop any corrosion that may affect the connection in the future along with any none waterproof connectors get a vaseline coating also.
Thanks! Yes quality tools and consumables are expensive, but in the long run its worth it. Generall this discussion will never stop, its a bit like the good old "What Oil" question.
One thing, please use some kind of video stabilizer when filming yourself, the mini-shaking is not that great...
It is a bit, but we are just explaining where what is used and why and are not saying one is better than the other for everything. People seem to gloss over that haha
Good point on the stabilization, I'll mention it to the team here. We are trying to keep these ones a bit more casual but that's probably a little too casual eh haha - Taz.
If I want to join two heavy guage cables, I'll stick to solder for high electricity flow, I'll crimp for a high stress connection, and if I need both high electricity flow and high stress, I'll go for something more exotic; stuff like soldering a crimp to improve the electrical side of the connection, and using high temp hot glue for joints that aren't going to see melting point tempuratures; Hot glue provides a similar effect to potting, while being easy to re-melt and/or peel away if the joint needs to be undone or reworked for some reason.
What do you use/recommend for the rear of buttons/switches? These tend to have very small terminals and aren’t really designed for terminals to attach to I don’t think? I normally solder to these however if there’s an alternative I’m not aware of would be cool to know.
The likes of the popular Otto buttons do require solder. You can then add a heat moulded boot for strain relief. Depending on the specific switch arrangement it may be possible to pot the back too - Andre
personally I like to use prewired buttons/switches and just splice the wire.
I friend of mine was an avionics tech (auto electrician for aircraft) He/they never crimp any wire than can be soldiered, for access and other reasons crimps are used in some places. As far as vibration, he specialises in helicopters and was maintaining rescue helicopters. Pretty hard working aircraft in all sorts of shitty conditions.
There are comments around saying the opposite, it's a divisive topic, often between different age groups too. We're talking motorsports here but if you Google for some information around soldering in avionics you will come across the same arguments interestingly. On modern equipment I believe they are a little stricter on requiring crimps, but again, I'm just going off what has been commented on the channel regarding this topic over the years as we are in a completely different industry - Taz.
Used to work on electronics for logging whilst drilling for oil, these tools were in a string behind the drill head and had the absolute shit kicked out of them at high temperatures, everything was soldered to a high standard and employees were tested on IPC theory and practical skills annually. Anyone can make a solder joint hold for a bit, same goes for a weld, but learning to do it right and know it's going to hold up takes practice. I work in the subsea industry now and by comparison everything soldered is garbage, it doesn't need the structural integrity so it's thrown together half assed.
That's also my experience with aircraft avionics. Dubs are usually crimped, however when splices and nodes are made they are nearly always soldered.
@@bowez9 we gave you sources, you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about this though. You can search around the internet, we are not the only ones to talk about the downfalls of soldering or crimping as well as the advantages as it seems to be no matter what we tell you, you don't trust us, so try more sources 🤘 - Taz.
@@Pro2eus Both have there advantages! But if I have to fix something with a cheap soldering iron or a cheap crimp tool, I'll use the soldering iron.
Great video thank you
Huh wish this video would have showed up yesterday before I crimped a few wires. I crimped them wrong. I only went around the copper and not the outside wire. I ended up crimping it poorly then soldering it. Came out okay. Not a critical part though. Good video I learned something.
Learning is all part of it, and seeing how you can do something better in the future is always a good sign of progress too. Hope you're enjoying the project 😎 - Taz
This is really just a question of strain relief; a crimped joint at the end of the crimp point is, by itself, subject to the same strain problems as a soldered wire is just after the point where the wicked solder terminates. The actual joint itself is equally strong/reliable in either case, with each having possible failure modes that come out about equal (bad crimp due to tool/pressure issue, failed solder due to cold joint or use of corrosive flux that wasn't cleaned).
The only difference is that you're using crimped connectors that contain built-in provisions for strain relief at the appropriate points, so this consideration is handled "automatically". A soldered connection correctly strain-relieved past the wicking point would exhibit similar reliability, but it will almost certainly be more labour-intensive and time consuming to implement than a crimped connection.
Just want to point out, using leaded solder is not RoHS compliant, and the resulting assembly should not be resold; RoHS enforcement fines can be quite steep unless the violation was via self-reporting.
Using RoHS compliant silver-bearing solder not only has a higher glass transition temperature, but it also tends to be more brittle than leaded solder alloys.
Flux is also highly corrosive and much more difficult to remove from wiring strands and insulation than printed circuit boards, which will tolerate an ultrasonic wash cycle quite nicely.
Personally, I'm a big fan of Anderson Powerpole 45A connections. The consumables are silver-plated and prevent high-resistance copper/aluminium interfaces, as well as reducing arc spatter from initial connection to a current source. Paired with some Wet Noodle silicone-sheathed fine stranded wire, and the appropriate epoxy-coated shrink tube, it has not yet let me down... Bought 250 black "negative/ground" shells and assorted colors for positive voltages/signals. Down to less than fifty. Personal story: Buddy borrows my shells, contacts, and spare cheap crimper (dent-de-lion off amazon), then complains the crimp fell out. Turns out he was using cheap lamp cord and using the largest 45A "U" contact; instead of the appropriate 30A "O" contact for the wire gauge. Clipped the end off, slipped the goo-shrink tube over, crimped the right contacts on, bic lighter'd the tube, slid the contacts into the housing with a satisfying 'click' and his ARB vehicle fridge has been trooping along ever since.
solder > crimp. Almost always. When the joint is properly prepared for solder, the thermals are adequately managed, the flux properly removed, the joint properly protected from the environment a soldered joint will last. The wire fatigue issue is also a problem for crimped joints and is a common point of failure. You haven't worked on enough cars and equipment if you haven't seen a battery terminal that's held on with four strands of copper.
I've been turning wrenches since I was a child, born into it. Mom, dad, grandpa all turned wrenches and I was exposed to it. I've used this technique on cars, trucks and heavy equipment without corrosion or failure for at least two decades.
Love the FD ROTARY motor in there 😁
So what about something like solder seal wire connectors as I have watched a few videos where the connection is cut open. the solder doesn't wick it actually just encapsulates the wires, kind of like a welded crimp. I have seen several examples where the solder doesn't travel thru the wires where the solder cuff is. Now I'm not talking the knock off ,but the origionals.
As a master electrician I can tell you that both are ok. The problem is in its use. And when you crimp and you use one brand of ferules and a different brand of crimp tool you may run into problems. I use Vaco crimp tool on Vaco terminals, I use 3m crimp tool on 3 m terminals,Burndy crimper on Burndy terminals, ring terminals and spade lugs, but splices ect . I use Fox ferrule crimper on the ferules I use. The rest I solder. I use western unions and solder
here a question i have a Toyota echo ecu header plug chopped off a factory ecu board and a flying loom dropped on me by a friend half soldered to the back of plug pins should I disorder and cream in how should I go about getting my pulling into the back of plug
Personally I prefer to twist, solder and shrink wrap when splicing wires end to end (shrink wrap sleeves hold and insulate the joint, solder holds it while shrink wrapping to prevent the wires from becoming untwisted, and the wires being twisted provides the connection; though the solder helps with that too); but for connectors I prefer crimps (also with shrink wrap sleeves).
I don't like joining stranded wire in any way without using shrink sleeves. Ideally thick ones with glue. Wire nuts can work temporarily if necessary. I don't like wire taps at all. I'm using distribution blocks for my audio system and a few other accessories (one for positive and one for negative). Not sure how they'll perform in the long term since I've never used a bus/breaker type connection with stranded wire.
Same
I'm electronics designer, soldering _always_ creates stress concentration areas, if you have application or wiring that's under any sort of movement or vibration (even just those wires being able to move freely), you never solder that connection, you basically ALWAYS use crimp connections, use terminals (where you crimp end ferrules to if it's a stranded wire) or other connectors where the connector mating terminal might be soldered to the board but the connector itself is attached to the pins with crimp or other crimped connector.
Stress concentration regions make the wire fail prematurely when any movement of the wire causes the wire to deform plastically at the solder joint boundary because there's a hard change from pliable to non pliable.
There are systems that allow you to solder wire to board such that there's no stress concentration, but they're very specifically designed as such for that use.
And never EVER solder any wire that's to be crimped, it'll fail prematurely.
D9 connectors exists even in crimpable version. Waay to practical to wire when you have all 9 wires connected ti them.
Used in my job for railway MVB applications
Obviously there are opinions on this and they may run the gamut. Most soldering methods may be failure prone, but soldering to DOD STD 2000-1 does not fall into that category. The methodology of this level of soldering is equivalent to level 3 of the new J STD of today. I was an avionics tech in the Air National Guard and I can say with great confidence that the soldering I did was of the highest quality. Methods matter, solder and flux quality matters and the equipment you use matters greatly. Soldering to this high standard allowed the solder joints to endure G forces, mechanical and physical stresses and thermal inversions without failure. When someone or some crew’s life depends on your work quality, there is no failure option available. It is an extremist ideal and compromise is not a consideration. Whether you crimp or solder, methods matter. No compromise is the rule and there are no exceptions as human life is on the line so your work is never to be less than exemplary. People don’t ordinarily operate under such scrutiny, but this is about high reliability and high quality. Passion for the work must be beyond question. I only use mil spec tools to do crimping ops. To do otherwise is a compromise of work quality. You have this passion for your work and I’ll bet you aren’t using any box store tools to accomplish your work. I believe others will say uglies and poo poo what you are saying. They aren’t working products at your level. Let the haters rant! I believe in the highest level of quality and reliability and only that level will do. What others do is their problem. I admire your level! Bravo sir!
D9's you can get crimp versions, i think TE?
Crimp and solder, correct strain relief and water proof connectors, just gives me a piece of mind that's all.
If you need to crimp and solder, you're either doing one, the other, or both methods wrong. Either method done correctly (we prefer crimping for the reasons outlined) will be sufficient and save you time too.
If you've had issues with only using crimping or soldering it would be worth zeroing in on why and changing the way you do it to give you more confidence imo, but you are of course free to do whatever you wish at the same time on your own projects 🤘 - Taz.
Crimp connectors and solder the wire to the connector for the best 🤩
Exactly, it's win-win, don't understand why this isn't done more often
This question was brought up in a webinar. This is not ideal solution as solder would wick up the wire under the sheathing and create a new failure point past the proper strain relief. A heat shrink will be sufficient at strain relief, but if solder has wicked it self past that heat shrink the joint will become brittle and break between wire and strain relief.
Want to learn more about the tools and materials used in a motorsport wiring harness? This interview with Zac Perkins has you covered: www.hpacademy.com/blog/crimp-vs-solder-concentric-twisting-txl-vs-tefzel-and-more-tech-talk/ - Taz.
Reliability measured over what time base? Soldered wires in low vibration environments last for decades. So that is bundled wires that do not bend or flex. Especially in marine environments where crevice corrosion is especially prevalent.
The speaker here is specifically talking about motorsports. I think that would be considered a high vibration environment.
For low vibration environments, and applications where the wire cannot flex solder would be an acceptable choice.
Another advantage of cramping is it requires less skill than soldering does.
Its all true, but theres another exception, when dealing with large cables, that need large cable terminals like the starter feed cable or alternator positive cable, it is a good idea to first crimp the wire in the terminal and then apply solder to seal it from the elements, that prevents corrosion in the terminal, and the bigger cables are less susceptible to that copper fatigue failure simon described, and they are easier to secure properly.
I always solder my wires and connectors whenever possible; it;s the most permanent and reliable way to make a solid bond without corrosion getting into the joint
Except solder is only resistant to corrosion, not immune, so you should be checking the way you are sealing your connections crimped or soldered if you have had corrosion issues - Taz.
@@hpa101 Hello, Taz; nice to make your acquaintance. I was referring to ordinary household and auto-related wiring; I do not know what you applications are, so perhaps corrosion is more of an issue for you. I just know that crimp connections often fail because they are merely mechanical joints, whereas a soldered joint is chemically/molecularity bonded and permanent.
It's there a reason not to use crimp style d9 connectors?
Need to look into low temp solder joints. Cummins is swapping to this method. According to them it is the best of both world and the most reliable wire to wire/ wire to terminal connection.
Throw us some documentation from Cummins on this, always interested to read from the source. Who knows in a few years maybe both soldering and crimping will be obsolete, things do change eh! - Taz.
Hey Taz, I couldn't link the service information off of quickserve since you would need a profile to access the information threw the training offered by cummins but I found a video on YT discussing the same low temp connectors. m.th-cam.com/video/xCK3GQJzx74/w-d-xo.html
If you do have access to cummins quick serve let me know and I can get you the link to view threw email.
I forgot to add that this process is also offered for terminals.
@@josephbusby4625 cheers for sharing that video mate, I'll take a look after work today. We don't have Quick Serve access sadly, would have been interesting to see what the pros and cons were for them for their large application but appreciate that YT link :D - Taz.
Soldered connections are also prone to creep. That manifests as a joint falling apart under seemingly small but constant stress, after days or even months. An easy experiment to try is to bend a thin wire of solder from a spool to be suspended in the air, and watch how it collapses onto the table in the course of a few minutes or hours.
In a proper solder joint the solder is not supposed to support the connection.
That would be the weakest type of solder joint.
informative video as usual HPA. is there ever a time when you want to crimp and add solder to that crimp? could both techniques improve the other if both are used? thanks💪
Chur! Sadly no, common question though.
By soldering a crimp you would be just adding risk to your connection for no advantage. By adding a crimp where you intend to solder you probably just need more practice on the soldering iron if you don't trust your work enough to warrant this.
Basically, whatever your preference is if you're doing it right you have no practical need to do both - Taz.
@@hpa101 understood. i read in the comments where you addressed this after i sent the message. apologies for you having to repeat yourself. thanks again
You're all good mate, tis what I'm here for haha
It's a good question and also a good mindset to have where if you don't trust one option completely for anything then sometimes it's better to double check technique, materials and other options rather than just throwing something else at it as well. 100% much easier said than done - Taz.
@@hpa101 i agree. I've used both processes on heavy gauge wires, like when i build dedicated grounds or power wire systems using 2ga wire.
Both D-style connectors (DB9) and XLR have been available in crimp versions for decades. Not sure why you'd solder those if vibration's such an issue.
For those of us lucky enough to use the specialty crimpers that are quite expensive, the choice between solder or crimping is easy. Having the proper tools to pin out your own connectors is really nice but super expensive for a hobbyist.
That is a common misconception. A quality soldering iron will cost more than Andres 'go-to' crimpers. When you're dealing with the likes of Autosport connectors then yes, the price does get up there, but when a connector alone at that level can be $500 it's all relative.
Check out this article, I think you will enjoy it: www.hpacademy.com/technical-articles/crimping-on-a-budget-tools-and-materials/ - Taz.
@@hpa101 $20 soldering iron is good enough to proper soldering. Show me working crimping tool in this price.
Carefull with the two part epoxy. Ive used it in low power circuits and had it reliquify slightly due to the voltage. Solid with a lump of goo in the middle.
I solder every connection…. Been doing it since my Navy days 30 years ago 👌🏾
Nice one, I think the video covers why it's not preferred in motorsport well enough but we can't speak for what the Navy does and why in their different applications. Note some Autosport connectors do require you to crimp rather than solder so there is sometimes more to it than just preference in the application we are discussing here 🤘 - Taz.
crimping isnt always more reliable, a place i worked where we always sinned the tips then crimped , for some parts we would actually soldered OVER the crimps, this was equipment used in high stress/vibration/heat/cold environments, one of the issues, even with proper crimps, was actually with the mechanical connection producing heat that a solder joint would resolve, crimps can be great, solder can be great, if done correctly for the job at hand.
for joints like shown at the start of the video, we would solder thetip of the wirescrimp then secure the end of the soldered tip with solder, leaving the back end crimped, but then we would heat shrink to add a strain relief at the back even if it wasnt really needed, the main reason, we had seen units where vibration caused the wires to work out of both crimp and crimp/solder joints either breaking off at the crimp, or pulling out as outter strands broke, one of the guys suggested a strain relief and...we tested , in the end, we would shrink the back of each crimp then the whole bundle would get heat-shrink bound hear each plug (if not the full length of the wires), for some jobs we even changed from the standard kinds of pins used, to much more robust heavier connections (example from a 4pin pwm style header to a full 4 pin molex connector as an interlink with molded ends(made at our shop, 2 little gals made them so fast it took 3 testers for each of them to sort-of keep up.. testing required them plugging the cables in, and leaving them under load for a set time, if the lights turned green the cables were good, it if was orange or red, the cables were not up to spec)
what our old boss always said was, "do what works, even if it goes against conventional wisdom, just make sure it actually works" , we once got paid to rebuild an old military vehicle that was going into a museum, the electronics where...wrecked... he used pure copper to replaced the aluminum power buss rails that were... in horrible shape... the thing used an early form of breakers, that actually had a modern drop-in-replacement, that looked close enough for the client, took us 2 months to fully restore the electronics including having some old vets who worked on them back in the day, come and consult(help) get things as close to original as possible... very weird machine... sort of a mobile command/control thing that apparently wasnt widely used but was one of those projects that with some extra dev could have been actually useful for deployment overseas in numbers but had some...flaws like the alum power bus that would overheat if stressed too hard.. apparently a couple units had the box catch fire due to that design flaw...their fix was to replace the buss with..copper rods they flattened with a press just enough to fit... we actually pressed them milled and made them match the original rails shape,
they also showed us that there were mount points to put all the wires in conduits rather then strapped up like they had been from the factory and any used much for training or anything like that would have had that change made, in the end, the client was very happy, since by the time we were done it ran and all the crap inside worked again... even if we replaced some of the old lights with newer longer lived alternatives,
It is well known that solder wicked in to stranded wire makes more susceptible to vibration cracking. This of course will be worse in high vibrations environments. Like motorsports, military vehicles and airplanes. The cracking could take a long time to actually take place it doesn’t happen immediately.
This has to be a motorsport thing. (extra vibrations?)
I recently started working for a local shop that specializes in automotive electrical repair, and I asked the most experienced mechanic there about this topic. In his 40 years of experience, he claimed that he has never had a customer come back with an issue related to a soldering repair, as long as the wire wasn't flapping in the wind and heatshrink tubing was used after.
We're not stating that a soldered connection will 100% fail, as covered, we're stating it adds and extra layer of risk that is avoided in a motorsports application.
Just because you solder doesn't mean your loom will fall apart, just because you crimp doesn't mean it is indestructible nor is either method the only consideration for a reliable connection 🤘
Which method is better in terms of conductivity?
At about 7:00 you mention electromagnetic shielding. It is ELECTROSTATIC shielding. You can only CANCEL magnetic fields, hence the use of differential pair signaling.
In many cases you only terminate the shield at ONE END. If a shield is only connected at one end NO current can flow in it, which can by both electromagnetic and electrostatic means induce unwanted signals in the conductor we are trying to shield. Connected at both ends, interference from a radio transmitter is a distinct possibility.
I solder EVERYTHING in my cars. No issues for over 20 years (one on a car that I have had for 15 years). I tend to keep movement to a minimum, similarly to how you've done your epoxy filling.
Crimps always corrode - especially underhood. I've seen way more broken crimps than failed solder points. What I do in that case is crimp, then solder into there, and then heat shrink tubing on top of that.
If your crimps are failing you are not doing them correctly. You don't need to crimp and solder, one or the other is fine if either method is done correctly.
There are 2 other points I will add.
1.) Soldering will not fail straight away or explode just because it is solder. A soldered connection might never fail for you, but as discussed, it has a higher risk of failure when compared to a crimped connection (when both are done correctly) which is why it is avoided in motorsports where possible.
2.) Soldered connections are not immune to corrosion, just a more resistant. If done correctly though, a crimp nor a soldered connection will corrode within the life of a vehicle. Only when something is done incorrectly will this be an issue, and that is not the fault of your preferred connection method whichever it is 🤘 - Taz.
@@hpa101 Rock on! I meant to say, I deal with a lot of used cars, and in the past when I was driving bangers, they were questionably wired. Crimps on those cars failed much more often than solder joints, wires all green or even black due to corrosion, but yeah, I seem to recall quite poor connections to begin with - LOTS of exposed wire, crimps seemingly done with pliers... I'm still a fan of a good solder joint though, especially on the outside wiring of the vehicle.
Perhaps I'm seeing more failures in the crimp domain as any Tom, Dick, and Harry can go to Wal-Mart and buy crimps - they're just more accessible.
You have *perhaps* swayed me to use crimps inside the passenger cabin of the car ;)
Ahh yes, so crimps done with pilers are going to have multiple issues for sure, but also I couldn't imagine someone who is so unmotivated that they half-ass things to that extreme with crimping to do much better when it comes to soldering to be honest haha
When we're talking about crimping, we're certainly not talking about that level of work, and when done correctly your work will even be better than what is done by the OEM which is generally immensely satisfying, although depending on the OEM it's also sometimes not that hard...😂
At the end of the day both crimping and soldering have their pros and cons so it's not really a case of using one or the other for everything, it's just a matter of understanding the how to take advantage of the right method in the right place, and unless you have standards set by an employer which make this decision for you, it really is a personal choice.
If you want to get started with crimping at all then you might find this a solid help: www.hpacademy.com/technical-articles/crimping-on-a-budget-tools-and-materials/
Sorry for the massive reply, but cheers for the discussion dude! Happy wiring 😎 - Taz.
@@hpa101 Thanks for the link - I DO have cars modern enough to have those kinds of connectors, and I have had fun times popping individual wires out of them in the past to find... all sorts of unpleasantries.
Always good to familiarize yourself with the enemy :P
Is it true that if you can not solder the wires of a lambda sensor because it will influence the measurement/working?
I haven't worked on one first hand but I believe older narrowband sensors the wires are not copper, so no you couldn't solder them. This doesn't apply to modern widebands, however, which we would crimp rather than solder so couldn't tell you if soldering specifically would cause an issue here. It's not even really something we would spend time looking into when crimping is preferred here anyway to be honest - Taz.
@@hpa101 Hello Taz, that would make sense, I didn't knew that! Why aren't they from copper?
Thank you for your fast and (probably) correct response!
Love your channel, keep up the good work!
Take it a step further and crimp and solder. Applying just enough solder at the crimp to bond the ends of the individual strands to the connector. Yes it may seem redundant but it also depends on how clean of a signal do you want.
If you're crimping correctly you will have no signal issues and will not need solder. If you're soldering correctly (if that's your choice) you do not need to also crimp.
One or the other is sufficient. To do both is just adding unnecessary risk and time - Taz.
@@hpa101 I take it your expertise ends with engines. Mine comes from some very high tech companies where signal integrity is of the utmost importance. There is absolutely nothing in a engine that requires that level of connectivity or signal integrity. But by all means ride that horse high!!
Andre, in case you're unaware, there ARE D9 connectors available that use individual crimp pins rather than the solder cup version you refer to.
Edit:
Here's some examples:
www.digikey.co.nz/product-detail/en/cinch-connectivity-solutions/DEUH-9S/116-1027-ND/1278715
www.digikey.co.nz/product-detail/en/cinch-connectivity-solutions/DEUH-9P/116-1025-ND/1278713
Agree crimping is generally better for reasons outlined. The exception is in marine environments where if salt water does penetrate, (it shouldn't!) a soldered joint will be superior.
Solder is more resistant to corrosion by comparison, it is not immune to it, and it is a result of poor insulation for the application and not the fault of the connection method.
if you find you have water getting into your soldered or crimped connections then you need to look at your materials, tools and techniques to find which one or combination is letting you down imo, marine application or otherwise - Taz.
I have in the past both crimped and soldered connections and lugs in small boats. While connections are always encapsulated you would be surprised how well saltwater can penetrate. That will make for a high resistance joint in no time!
One thing that is a big no-no is tinning cable ends going into screwed connections. Also, if soldering, the use of zinc chloride or acidic fluxes are forbidden for obvious reasons. For automotive use crimping only has served me well.
Great informative channel! Thanks.