Watch This BEFORE You Rewire Your Car
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2024
- Fuse box delete? (and relays too!) If you are rewiring your car, you need to watch this before you start to help you make some informed choices.
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Simplified wiring, programable redundancy options, easy control functionality and more are covered here, let's unpack some info on PDM, PDU and PMUs, noting all those acronyms are actually the same thing.
While price is all relative, there is no arguing that the cost and functionality of quality electronics previously only seen in professional motorsports have come down to a more accessible level for many motorsport enthusiasts, even drifters who are always broke!. Scott Hilzinger from Haltech explains why a PDM (note explanation below) is an attractive option for motorsport and performance car enthusiasts and how to leverage some of the features of Haltech's PD16 specifically including the company's strong focus on simple user interfaces and control.
Also discussed are CAN communications in general (CAN Bus) along with CAN keypads which offer drivers and mechanics an incredibly amount of functionality with minimal physical setup complications compared to traditional options. While CAN itself is nothing new, this simplified level of usability for aftermarket performance devices is certainly changing the use case, along with the aforementioned price bracket of PDMs decreasing.
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WHAT IS A PDM?
A power distribution module (PDM), power management unit (PMU) and power distribution unit (PDU) are all the same thing with different names.
These units replace the conventional fuses and relays we need to control and protect the various electrical circuits on our car with solid state electronics to control current flow. This dramatically simplified the wiring installation and can also improve reliability. With a conventional fused circuit, if the current is excessive then the fuse will blow to protect the components and you need to stop and replace the fuse to get going again.
With a PDM the fusing current can be adjusted in software and the unit will simply shut off the circuit if the fusing current is exceeded. The smart part however is that you can then configure the PDM to wait a specific amount of time before retrying the circuit that just failed. You can also set how many times the circuit will retry before failing permanently. This can often be enough to nurse a car with a failing electrical part back to the pits for repair. It’s also possible to log and display the current draw on each circuit so you can see exactly what’s going on with every part of the electrical system.
At this point, a PDM is still going to end up more expensive than using fuses and relays but when weighing up options most enthusiasts overlook the cost involved with mounting and wiring the relays and fuses. When you factor that in, upgrading to a PDM often isn’t going to cost substantially more and by the time you consider the advantages it can start to look pretty attractive.
At the World Time Attack Challenge where we filmed this interview, it is now harder to find vehicles NOT using PDM devices across all classes than ever, a testament to the points covered here today and more.
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TIME STAMPS
0:00 - PDM, PDU, PMU, Herb, Call It What You Like
0:15 - Haltechs PD16
0:25 - What Is A PDM?
0:58 - Why Would You Want One?
1:17 - 1: Simplicity & Reliability
1:43 - 2: Cost
1:56 - 3: Data & Fault Detection
2:02 - Deeper Cost & Simplicity Explanation
2:53 - Physical Setup & Understanding
3:22 - Smarter Fusing Features
4:35 - Communication Of Fault/s
4:55 - Extra Redundancy
5:23 - CAN Communication 101
6:07 - We Have A Course On CAN 😎
6:14 - Haltech PD16 CAN Setup
7:36 - Essentially Just Select Current, Output & Go
8:06 - Inputs And Use Cases
8:47 - Focus On Plug And Play When Used With Corresponding Products
9:10 - CAN Keypad Control
10:13 - PD16 Price and Availability AUD April 2022
10:54 - Talk To Your Local Supplier
11:28 - Thumbs Up, Learn More
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#highperformanceacademy #pd16 #haltech #wtac #pdu #pmu #can #cancommunication #canbus #ofcourseicanbus #hpa #motorsport #pdm #keypad #dontletthesmokeout #wiring101 #datanerd #gofasterwithdata #racecraft #learndriveoptimise #motorsports - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
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Does the PD16 allow use to configure a reverse polarity DPDT switch as well? Would love to to wire my exhaust flaps directly to this unit instead of using a remote.
Did not realize Scott was such a unit lmao
Legs for days eh 😂 - Taz.
Have you seen the video of him in Moogs classic mini? Pretty hillarious!!
Yeah watching him get in there to wire up something it's hilarious and even just driving most of the cars for tuning guys massive
every one looks yp to scotty
Brings a new meaning to the phrase "beam me up Scotty!".
Haltech and Hp Academy, best crossover ever.
Consisently top quality content:) Nicely done guys!
Chur! Easily done with this calibre of interviewee to be fair, really enjoyed getting some insight into Scotts background too in the podcast he did with Andre - Taz.
@@hpa101 I can't find this, can you please share the link. Thanks)
Can it take switch input from a signal/wiper stick or is the keypad the only way to control the pd16?
Sorry, I did mean to do that for you. Here's the link: www.hpacademy.com/blog/011-do-you-have-to-break-things-to-become-a-good-tuner-podcast/?
Or here, episode 011: www.hpa-tunedin.com/ - Taz.
Could many smaller 8 output modules be connected to a common central system? I’m wondering about making a design for a vehicle with no powered signal wires spanning more than 2-3 feet and only using inter-device communication wires and unmetered power wires throughout the vehicle
Haltech's choice to do a seamless integration is a double edge sword. Great for those with an existing haltech elite. But not so useful for those on other ecu's.
Thats pretty much the thought i had in mind:/ reason being i wanna use speeduino ecu. And this method is one i have thought of before. By programming a raspberry pi for my entire electrical circuit. Where i map out the input/output in code.
@@abadibi exactly my scenario too. i want the speeduino or the speeduino dropbear as well.
I was going to do it all myself, but i figured if this PDU was around £300/$300/€300 i might be tempted. Actual cost: $1900. wow. Never mind! I'll use replaceable SSRs a touchscreen and an open standard to control it all thnks. If it could charge Lithium Ion batteries with CC/CV then maybe i'd pay $500, but $1900 is so absolutely ludicrous its slightly offensive lol
Rob Dahm used a Haltech with ECU masters PDM. CAN is CAN. It doesn't care what ECU it is as long as it supports CAN
@@abadibi However speeduino is nowhere near as capable as the commercial ECU options. Haltech Ive heard multiple times are a bit like apple. Link ECU on the other hand have completely open CAN protocols so you can use them with whatever and you are able to make custom CAN inputs and outputs to suit your needs.
I've been playing with speeduino also but its been a bitter sweet experience. Id use it for a fun project on a very simple vehicle, but once you get into something where the quality of engine management is critical then it gets outclassed pretty quickly
Feels like this is a bit of a game changer. Excellent info, thanks guys.
Andre and the Giant.
Scott is a full sized gent, no wonder he struggles to fit in the cab of some cars.
Great stuff Haltech, always love their products.
(Way back to E6) 🙂
Haltech truly are happy to talk to you over the phone and have great customer service!
Great product. Any one involved in non historic events of more than about an hr long, this type of device is invaluable
That’s awesome. I love that we’re moving to solid state fusing.
Awesome and gonna try this when I build my next car
Two of my favourite technical automotive youtube faces in one video?! Is it christmas already!!!
haha cheers man! Glad we could deliver Christmas early for you this year - Taz.
Great interview. keep up the good work!
Much appreciated!
Well that was the tall and short of it :-)
Great video guys well explained
Your humour has reached new heights, but be careful, it's a topic Andre gets a little short about.
Glad you enjoyed it, and I bow to your superior pun skills haha. Cheers mate! - Taz.
A great product to save a lot of old cars. Can you wire in your steering column control of the blinkers, wipers, headlights Directly removing your old fuse panel?
Wanting to retain the original equipment switches
Yes sir! The sky is the limit, although a every PDM only has a finite amount it can control so you need to make sure you get one big enough, or in our case we run 2 in the SR86.
Once you have identified your specific requirements and what that looks like, you can decide if the price and comparative advantages are worth it or not for the project - Taz.
Scott is an absolute unit.
Both in size and knowledge. Top bloke - Taz.
Tuning fork makes every one look short
It would be really awesome if Haltech made custom harnesses for specific cars that suited the PD Module, similar to what Wiring Specialties does for their stuff.
I've seen companies like brewed motorsports that does this with Haltech IO expansion modules. Not sure about the PDM though quite yet.
I make them 😅
Any chance Haltech will ever provide an option for user-configurable CAN? Love the Haltech products but this is really limiting to me and sure others as well, especially as this tech continues to grow and more and more people are going to ask for this as time goes on.
Worth asking Haltech directly, possibly mentioning exactly what it is you're working with as well and see what they say - Taz.
100% the reason I didn't go with them, they've been asked about this on forums for years and it's always the same answer - it could be dangerous letting the customer define their own can streams aka we don't trust you and don't want the liability
Great technology, i would be interested to know as may have missed it but do these still have the same issues as other/older PDM's that once it looses power or has low voltage the system can reset or not work at all?
Also reminds me i should do my courses i paid for at somestage lol
Lucky those courses are there for life eh!
I mean if the PDM has no power then it's not going to work, but neither is anything else electronic so I'm not sure that is really a PDM specific issue.
For not restarting with only low voltage, not an issue I know about personally, but again, a PDM does need power to function like any other electronic device and there are many other components that won't work with too low of a voltage even if the PDM does.
I'd put together a few specific examples of issues you have had previously or concerns and put them to the PDM supplier. They will be able to best explain how their specific product will, or won't as the case may be, work in them.
You can also post the same scenario on the HPA forum since you're a member and see what pops up too - Taz.
Great content! 2 questions:
1) Will the Haltech PDM work with other keypads like Blink Marine or only with the Haltech keypad?
2) How tall is Scott???
Thanks 😊
Great questions mate! Sadly I'm no help here.
1.) Get in touch with Haltech directly regarding this. I haven't personally used one of these and we don't sell them, so we don't have all the little details on hand like they do for you guys.
2.) They might be less helpful with this haha, but surely he is 7ft something right? I feel like in this old interview he looks even taller. Maybe Andre was still growing back then: th-cam.com/video/UM5U1DjVaVc/w-d-xo.html
Sorry I couldn't be of any help whatsoever mate 😅 - Taz.
Wondering how many pumps can you run on this system, my Holley dominator EFI is currently running 3 internal 340 pumps in the tank and I have a fourth one that's external. To feed the 3000hp modular motor.
Rob dahm needed this badly
How would this compare to something like Infinity Box?
Is there a way to program a PD16 if you aren't using a Haltech ECU?
In case of a short, say touching a live output to gnd, is the PDM fast enough to protect itself? if the output circuitry gets damaged, i bet there is no easy replacement, as with a traditional fuse box you would simply replace the fuse....also wiring is simplified, but added complexity with another ECU, which by themselves have many failure modes (complex circuitry, how many more chances for solder cracks?) being a relatively new product, reliability over time is certainly a concern.
Firstly, yes the PDM is fast enough to protect itself, if set up on the software correctly and that is one of the major advantages of using a PDM so it would be a massive flaw if you just started replacing PDMs instead of fuses.
It is designed to detect any type of short or open circuit.
In our experience it is more likely that a failure will occur from someones crimp joint on a pin going into the PDM or and issue elsewhere in the wiring that will cause an issue rather than something failing within the unit itself. This is why they are so widely used in professional motorsport where wiring doesn't win you any races, it loses them when it fails instead.
That and the fact it vastly simplifies things for the team.
Hope that answer helps! - Taz.
Does this unit "data log", and can that be used against a driver in a "accident" situation??
Greetings: With convenience follows less reliability. Med and heavy trucks started these in the mid 2000s. A real nightmare. Comparatively, the earlier versions they replaced R more reliable and cheaper 2 repair. The remark of relays and connections- it is cheaper 2 replace 20 relays, (which is about the capability of the unit demonstrated) then it is 2 replace a PDM and flash/program/setup. It the wiring and connections R done proper they should C a decent life of the unit. Keep the PDMs, I'll keep my relays.
This is not an OEM PDM nor for an OEM application. OEM wiring is not as reliable for motorsport as motorsport wiring either, they are two different applications with different considerations, so the comparison is a little redundant.
If you are talking about fitting an PDM to your OEM car for normal day to day street use and not a motorsport application though, then yes, you are right, you do not need a PDM, but there is a reason why teams who need as much reliability as possible to retain sponsors, get results, and not go bankrupt use this technology, and it's not because it's unreliable by comparison to the alternative/s - Taz.
@@hpa101 Greetings: Yes. I figured it was a custom application. As such, with the many changes, that device might B advantageous. Still, I prefer the less HiTech. Reliability and repair expense over HiTech convenience. Good show mate.
The question about the CAN and tuners not liking it is exactly where my brain went. I think I'm going to just expand my fuses with a boat fuse box and continue with PCM flash. Cheaper for my street sleeper.
Seems like a cleaver solution, definitely has some advantages. But the main thing I'm still wondering about is how the reliability of a solid state system like this compares to traditional relays. I realize that in theory the solid state system should be more reliable since it has no moving parts, but I have also seen that relays can last an incredibly long time and typically outlast the vehicle. And if a relay does eventually fail, it's usually a very easy and cheap fix. If this electronic box fails, I doubt it would be repairable but someone please correct me if I am wrong.
It also depends how it fails. If only one output dies not that big of a deal. If the whole thing fries that's kinda expensive and will leave you stranded.
@@SoulTouchMusic93 @The Vibe That's a good point. I also wonder how a product like this would cope with voltage surges such as if an alternator regulator fails. I would sure hope that a product that costs so much is built to the same reliability standards as mission critical OEM electronics, but a 1 year warranty doesn't give me much confidence. I'm not at all saying it's not a good product or that it won't last, these are simply concerns I thought of that may or may not be justified. Only time will tell how reliable these modules end up being in the long run.
PDMs are not a new technology, they are just becoming cheaper and more popular in the aftermarket performance world, however, they have been used in motorsport for many, many years at varying levels. Different brands, same base tech.
In a performance application realistically you're going to be rebuilding your engine before replacing a PDM, and yes, they have failsafes, that is part of the point of using them although for sure no part is infallible especially if you install them incorrectly, but that is not the parts fault in that situation.
If your one and only concern is cost and you run a vehicle that isn't going to lose you time and money at events if a fuse or relay fails, then a PDM is on a long list of parts that you probably don't need to be fair, however, still interesting to know they exist and how they work 😎 - Taz
@@hpa101 I didn't realize that, thank you for letting me know! I never knew these PDMs existed until I saw your video on it and of course it has its pros and cons like everything else, but the technology is definitely interesting. I wonder if this type of fully solid state PDMs are used from the factory in any production vehicles? I know the technology of solid state switching isn't new and is used in many vehicles, I'm just not aware of it being used for any higher current applications.
No worries man. Yes some late model vehicles use the technology too, usually not for everything in the vehicle, but it is only something I have passing knowledge on myself rather than anything insider sorry.
Like anything OEM all the different marque have different acronyms for them. Even PDMs can be PDUs or PMUs as well, all the same thing (power distribution module, power distribution unit and power management unit).
There are also things like the Kaizen Relay which are kinda in between a traditional setup and something like a PDM - Taz.
www.hpacademy.com/blog/a-relay-with-no-crimping-or-soldering-solid-state-relay-from-kaizenspeed-tech-talk/?
www.hpacademy.com/blog/new-blog-post-6/?
Solid state nice.
perfect!!!
If I weren’t such an electrical noob I’d re wire my whole 4th gen fbody with this system. He makes it sound so easy.
It certainly is a bit of work, but like any skill, the more you learn the easier it gets to be fair. This video linked below also gives some insight into planning such a task.
To be honest most of the work is in the planning and preparation, and where it gets really 'hard' is if you didn't spend the time and do the checks to make sure that was done right in my experience. That can be having some wires missing once things are bundled and sheathed, getting to a point and realising you didn't order some of the connectors you need which stop all progress or something else that is fundamentally simple, but annoying - www.hpacademy.com/blog/watch-this-before-you-rewire-your-car/? - Taz.
Being able to use the key pad is such a massive, massive time saver and eliminates a ton of failure point,
Do you know if Haltech is doing anything to adopt their ECUs as EV controllers?
Great question! I'd hit up Haltech directly to be sure, but I don't believe they have anything in production at this stage and are waiting to see how the market goes.
The only companies I am AWARE of (noting I don't know everything!) are AEM and MoTeC when it comes to EV ECUs right now.
Again, I don't know everything, there might be others, it's still very early days for EV's in the aftermarket.
That said we are working on an EV tuning course so I'm sure we will have more insight into what is happening in the industry over the next few months and shops like Mountain Pass Performance no doubt have their finger on the pulse - Taz.
Sick but does haltec still require multiple separate boxes for like wb02, etc? True advancement creates more simplicity such as this pdm but it should really be built into the ecu
they have the nexus r5 pdm and ecu combined
As mentioned, the Haltech Nexus is what you're asking about. Here are some details: www.hpacademy.com/blog/haltech-nexus-r5-unboxing-vehicle-control-unit-techtalk/?
www.hpacademy.com/blog/what-is-this-an-ecu-pdm-wideband-and-datalogger-haltech-nexus-r5/? - Taz.
Really silly question if I was starting a brand new build and planning to use a pd16 can you use classic car toggle switches as switches for lights, indicators, wiper speed? I wanted to keep the retro look
You would still need switches for all of that regardless 😎
These replace fuses and relays, not switches although you could use the likes of a CAN keypad in place of analog switches but that isn't what you're after.
You do need to be mindful of the inputs/outputs for a street application as they can get used up pretty quick in such applications compared to a race car.
If you haven't seen it already I think you will find this video helpful too - th-cam.com/video/BBSp2-T7VRk/w-d-xo.html - Taz.
@@hpa101 I was hoping to use the pd16 instead of fuses and relays and use the pd16 to power lights, fans, fuel pump, injectors, wiper motor etc
What wasn’t really talked about with an advantage to this is distribution capacitance. All the cables and devices have to saturate and hold the electricity until it is used. When you can delete old style relays and fuses and eliminate the mechanical links through all of those connections you will delete points of failure. More connections more chances to fail.
Well.....sort of.
Electronic fuses are complex systems with very delicate analog electronics. If designed and built very well, they can be very reliable. On the other hand conventional fuses and relays can be very reliable as well.
I have been designing these systems for industrial applications for 10 years. Like most things, there are strengths and weaknesses. Over time, I learned that the engineering needs to be very thorough and there is little forgiveness when cheap parts are used. I would guess that Haltech has nailed it in that regard. These systems can be susceptible to interference which will cause stability issues.
This is a lot like having one of those old-school TV/VCR combo units; when one breaks, the whole thing is broken. How reliable are these things? Convenient yes, but it looks
a lot like a place of concentration for a failure.
Reliable enough that this isn't a consideration just like how you don't carry a spare engine in the boot 😉
With the ability to monitor the health of components this really does a lot of double duty to add reliability noting nothing is infallible but to us the pros outweigh the cons when it comes to PDMs in a performance application - Taz
Did Scott grow? Holy crap
He's always been someone who has a backup career in the NBA if he wants it to be fair haha: th-cam.com/video/UM5U1DjVaVc/w-d-xo.html - Taz.
Jeez Andre I had no idea you were so short
I know right. He's always asking us to change light bulbs for him. Scott is 7ft something tall so usually we just get him to do it instead 😅 - Taz.
Can these types of PDM allow to wire the standard wiper and indicator stalks near the steering wheel instead of the keypad?
Yes, there are a few different ways you could make that happen so long as you have all the required inputs and outputs noting PDMs do come in different sizes in that respect.
They are more geared at motorsport applications from a functionality standpoint rather than a plug in and go option for your goal here - Taz.
@@hpa101 thanks Taz
I’m 6’5” and trying to tune race cars fit up for short drivers kills me. No clue how Scott does it.
Possibly a lot of yoga given how difficult some cages are to navigate through eh! - Taz
So how do i use this item when i am still using a fully manual system with no ecu or electronic boxes around
Some PDMs like Haltechs here and Maxx ECU really (at this stage) want you to use them with their ECUs and are setup aimed more at that. I'm sure there is a way around it if you have the time and knowledge, but there are also many other PDM/PMU/PDU options out there which are 'standalone' units that don't care about what other systems you do or don't have.
So for that, you just plug your laptop in like you would an ECU and give the device the information you want it to have.
Obviously, if you are running EFI there are more electronic systems that you can leverage the advantages of a PDM with, but as above, it is not a requirement either.
On the flip side if you were already running a Haltech Elite and wanted a PDM, then if the inputs and outputs suit your requirements getting the PD16 here would be a 'no brainer'.
There are options and solutions for everyone, including fuses and relays if that's what ticks the right boxes for you - Taz.
Can the haltech pdm work on other ecu with canbus? Ecu master black?
ECUmaster supports other canbus systems
@@OnlyDominican now I'm debating on just purchasing a haltech pdm over the ecu pmu16... at a $300 price difference. Plus an additional $300+ for the pmu16 harness... if the ecumaster pmu 16 is worth the additional high amp outputs over the haltech pdm 16.
This video might help you when it comes to working out what high amp outputs you do or don't need: www.hpacademy.com/blog/custom-wiring-harness-where-to-start-update-306/? - Taz.
only good for haltech ? or can be used on holley teriminator X ?
I have no personal experience using this PDM with a Holley EFI system. From the discussion here out of the box it is really setup to interface with Haltechs own ECUs and software super easily.
Beyond that, anything is possible, but to varying levels of difficulty when it comes to CAN communication.
Personally I would get in touch with your local Haltech supplier/dealer/tuner and put the question to them directly to be certain, and do the same for the other side of things depending on what you want to do with this and your Holley as there are a few different ways you can go about setting up a PDM - Taz.
The camera stabilisation is freaky in this video… the way the background looks like distortion you get underwater.😂🇦🇺🤜🏼🤛🏼😎🍀
th-cam.com/video/AgZYGxr-f_o/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=KALKUBAISIQTR
And now for the serious reply, it was a windy day which is why the background is moving around so much, if that's what you mean?
Wind is the reason why we rock the giant mic sock for you guys. It works a treat on that front 😎 - Taz.
I have the haltec ic7 dash, 750 elite ECU, and a Haltec Honda j series compatible harness.. now I j series s this 😂
Here’s an idea based on a few things, this, the new onset of different modules for things and the idea of using relays for old cars to get more headlight power. Just run a power and signal wire to every section of the vehicle and have a module (possibly made from a smaller one of these PDM’s) for each, so headlight and other lights on that side would plug into it and same for taillights, one up in the steering column assembly and one in the dash, one for the heater and so on. Once set up the amount of wires for each section is as little as 2 or at most 5 or 6, where a main power is needed along with one or two signal wires and possibly a ground, which brings it to 4, then 2 more if CAN bus signal is used separately from the signal to use the device and if CAN bus is even used. On more complicated things like the engine control an injector rail module or coil pack module depending on which design the vehicle uses would have the other devices plug into it, meaning the ecm to coils and injectors connection would have far less wires, a much smaller module for crank and cam sensors could be used or they could remain individually wired as normal, the end result would be easy pinpointing of failures and the ability for modules to do checks outside of normal operating conditions, you could then get a readable code for things like “intermittent disconnect of left taillight turn signal with no other disconnects at the same time” and recommended repairs like “change bulb or check pin fitment, if wired; check wire from socket to module” and all case scenario information like “failure of sense resistor or trace could be at fault, please connect test resistor to socket and activate test sequence with adequate space from resistor heatsink to other materials” and just generally the ability to go in with at most 4 or 5 special tools to diagnose any problem the modules can’t find out on their own, they would include the previously mentioned resistor, a tool to check and adjust pin fitment, and a two part system where one plugs in in place of the module and the other at the central module, this would allow current draw testing along with doing a current test on the signal wires to check for breaks or shorts that don’t show up on a multimeter. The result would of course mean less wires, less wiring and less labour but also more chips and a lot more transistors, which at this point may be an issue, but if done right it would increase the ability to recycle and reuse these components with a simple reprogramming and installation into the next vehicle or component, which would have avoided this shortage being so drastic also.
There's the issue of voltage drop and current. The wire to the first device in the bus would have to be able to carry all the current with everything turned on, even though the device itself only uses a little and probably not everything is turned on. So although its only 1 positive and 1 negative snaking its way around the car, it's going to be a thick boi. Probably an actual copper bar and not even flexy wire. The second thing as i mentioned is voltage drop. Although in theory a parallel connection just taps off say 14V from the 14V rail, when lots of other things are also using it that voltage might sag down to 13.5V or lower, and these distributed relays of yours would have to include regulators on them to account. Matter fact it would be smarter to use 48V on this rail and each remote relay also has a programmable constant current/voltage DC-DC regulator to bring it down to whatever is needed and prevent the need for fuses as Haltec have done here. You'd save a lot of weight in copper doing that too. And you'd have the right number of remote relays, built for the right size of the load, instead of Haltec choosing an arbitrary number of arbitrary sized loads. Would be even better if these remote relay/regulators also have logging capabilities on them. But now we're getting expensive, i'd probably guess $20 per remote logging/regulating relay? OK OK that's literally 1/100th of the price Haltec is asking for this system haha. But if the remote relays are smarter, the thing providing the 48V could also be current-limited, computed from what the sum of the relays say they need. As such if you touched the 48V rail it would see the current leak and switch off, safer than a standard 12V battery. But then that's everything off, single point of failure style. Regardless i'm going to build this exact setup in my shitty old Subaru in a few months because i'm trying to break a hypermiling record using Lithium Ion batteries and the alternator attached to the driveshaft instead of the engine (i.e. other side of the clutch) to do more efficient regenerative breaking and some other dumb shtuff. Certainly your idea isn't a bad one, it just requires a rethink of the car's electrical system in its entirety and i bet Haltec thought people wouldn't go for that. They're gonna want 14V on each output, always. And they're probably right.
@@John-rw9bv ohms law, use thicker wires, no voltage drop to worry about.
I was expecting the cost to be double
Ford did this as well in the late 90's ....lets just say customers werent too happy when they did go bad. Instead of just changing a fuse, they now had to replace the whole module
Not much on a race car that is cheap to replace, but it's all there for good reason. If PDMs were a massive point of failure for race teams though, they wouldn't be using them 😉
For OEMs they for sure have a secondary business of selling you parts, some might even argue it's their primary business in some cases. Different kettle of fish to this and motorsport though - Taz.
Haltech is some awesome stuff. I want their Nexus so bad
Are they water proof
I'm not sure specifically for the PD16 here, the connectors are I believe and there is a difference between something being water proof to getting wet or being submerged underwater for hours.
Like a fuse box though there are ways and means to make something more waterproof than factory to be on the safe side if it is a consideration for your application 😎 - Taz.
I wish there was a much cheaper version of this that didn’t include all the bells and whistles, just the core power elements, but without CAN and maybe fewer connections, just for use in smaller/simpler situations than a full rewire.
There are a few
Can't remember their names off the top of my head...but i'll try get back to this comment
I found an older Switch pro's 8100 for my car just to keep the cost of my project affordable!
Haltech products are way over priced for what they offer.
How would you do a PDM without CAN?
But how about HEATING? There is even HUNDRED of ampere load, which produce HEAT.. which in a wide open wiring and fuse/relay panels is easyly dissipating around. How would deal with this HUGE problem that tiny ten square centimeter plastic(?!) box?
So....this is like home automation for the car?
No, unless you yourself dress up in tin foil and act as a fuse in your wiring system which you plan to stop doing when you purchase this?
It's really just another tool with pros and cons like any other - Taz.
tunning fork scotty
Scott is either very tall or Andre is very short 🤔🤣🤣🤣🤣
Or both? 😂 - Taz.
The problem with canbus isn't it's complexity it is that it's not standardised, and kills modularity and "get her home fixes".
Canbus is fantastic for those that design the systems, especially if a prepared laptop and charger is already in your tool kit but if you want to tap off of a canbus product you shouldn't or even cannot in most cases.
Modularity allows anyone with not much knowledge to connect up and learn or make mistakes and get the car home safely or even make an everyday person bring more to the market.
Canbus kills all of this, it's not the complexity, it's the obsolescence that comes with it.
I'm interested to know in your opinion why you say we shouldn't tap into and utilize can communication where possible and applicable?
Definitely agree the lack of standardization can be a pain, but many companies do have great integration like Haltech here where you can control it from their tuning software all in one hit, catch being you want to be in their product 'ecosystem' to leverage that functionality (not necessarily a bad thing to be fair!).
Others even provide everything you need to not have to decode anything and instead dive straight into integrating it with other products, sometimes even providing templates for things they know are popular combinations with their own products too which offer a plug and play solution.
Where it can become very difficult is with OEM applications, however, there are also levels to that as well as far as tapping into an existing sensor for data logging purposes vs trying to fit an aftermarket dash to the OEM ECU and retain all functions and information at the same time - Taz.
@@hpa101 cheers Taz.
I do agree Canbus has the potential of being a very easy system if you're in a compatible ecosystem.
However I race mainly rally and I usually have very limited time to fix problems between stages or even just to limp the car home after an event such as I had to today.
I bring this up because if I had a canbus system to fix a sensor or to run a new output or tap off of an sensor readings, I would have to run power and data to my device, then power up a laptop and program it in which isn't viable, I usually an able to Jerry something up by cutting and soldering wires to get me through as I can see most people would in unurban areas also.
It can also kill off the aftermarket product market as yes it can make it easier to plug and play some products but in alot of other cases it can kill a product from ever coming to the market as it can make universal products impossible to design, or add to much complexity in design, or size, or even cost as you are adding processors or regulators which don't nessesarily need to be there at all.
To be fair, you can repair CAN wiring too, and splice into it - www.hpacademy.com/blog/splicing-new-wires-into-your-can-bus-network-can-bus-communications-free-lesson/?
Things are heading more and more towards PnP which sounds like what you need if it will be something for you to consider in the future. Like I mentioned a lot of companies now give you templates to integrate their products with other devices over CAN. Dash displays are a good example of this.
Like a lot of modifications though we all struggle balancing NEEDS with WANTS haha
Happy rallying and cheers for the chat Rooey! - Taz.
@@hpa101 cheers, I appreciate it alot.
Andre Simons accent makes my brain hurt
Can you bridge 2 channels together and set it for 20A per/ 40A combined?
It should . I know I asked ecu master about their pmu16. And it's able to combine 2 with more amps if needed. So this one should be able to also
peterbjork just deleted his r8 fusebox
He does some awesome work - Taz.
PDM's are stupid expensive
They are not cheap, but they are cheaper than ever these days to the point it is a valid choice if you are rewiring your race car.
It really isn't all that long ago they were simply only viable for professional motorsports teams and that's not just for the cost but also the knowledge you'd need for setup and usage.
Like anything in motorsport or performance car building, they ain't free - Taz.
Is that guy a giant or is Andre actually short?
Andre is just really short. He actually comes in through a cat door at work - Taz.
@@hpa101 🤣😜😊
Hi i would like your company to use my car to sponsor thr produce being done on a volvo 245dl station wagon and i would love to have your logo on my car.
The only problem is this thing blows it blows
Same for your engine, gearbox, ECU, various pumps, belts, tyres and more. At least this is a tool that you can use to help prevent that happening to some other items at the same time as well though and I don't think the failure rate of PDMs historically is high enough to warrant such a concern personally, but your research might vary - Taz.
Fuse box delete, by adding 30 boxes
Sucks the haltech button box are so ugly. They look like they belong in a semi or industrial equipment.
🤣🤣 just a week late damnit
Next time 😎 - Taz.
Nope
Just makin it easier for thieves
That's a new one....how? - Taz.
So the same thing Dodge used/uses to make sure you never know when your headlights are going to work or not. A single point of failure for your entire electrical system. No thanks. I'll stick with discrete circuits.
Do you carry a spare engine too? - Taz.
@hpa101 I don't see how that's in any way similar. This box saves about 7.3g over a normal fuse panel. And it comes with all the drawbacks of anything that involves software or PCBs.
The point is there are many items on a car that are a 'single point of failure' and it is risk vs reward in how you manage that. If reliability was a massive issue with PDMs however, you would never see them used extensively in motorsport like they are given motorsport is 100% results-driven, making reliability paramount!
If you only want to fit a PDM to save weight and are not racing in a class where 7.3g (noting you have completely made that figure up) gives you a performance advantage, then yes, this probably isn't something you need to invest in and no one has specifically told you otherwise 😉
A few people have mentioned this article also helped them figure out of a PDM was something that they needed for their specific project or not. You might enjoy it even if it just underlines that you personally do not require a device like this: www.hpacademy.com/technical-articles/what-is-a-pdm-and-why-do-you-need-one/ - Taz.
Nope. I love my wiring. Love my relays, fuses, fusible links, resistors, diodes, and bulky weather pack connections.
Example: Module vs Analog circuit for the cooling fan.
Analog:
Fan is provided power from a fusible link or thermo breaker. Directly from the battery. A short wire from the distribution block.
A very short wire to a diode protected relay.
A wire to the fan from the relay.
A - wire to the frame from the relay.
A - wire to the frame from the fan .
Fan Speed and temperature control module mounts between the fan and relay.
1 negative wire to a manual dash switch from fan relay With a programmable key on / off timer module wired wired upstream.
The timer module has one positive fused key on wire. One - wire to the a pillar ground from the manual switch and module.
That’s as fancy as it gets with very small Negative control wiring and Short low voltage drop positive power wires with a smaller wire gauge than any other way possible.
If something goes wrong. Everything is accessible. Straight forward diagnosis and easily temporary bypassed components.
Fully programmable. Analog components far more robust due to cooler running separate components .
Chance of being stranded falls to one being the fan itself.
Hal:
If the Hal fails it effects everything controlled by it.
The Hal needs a a key on source. It does everything internally and uses one very large wire to the fan. If a manual switch is used it needs a switched to ground signal wire from a pillar ground to switch and one small negative wire from switch to Hal.
If the Hal fails , how would I easily bypass to run the fan? Add a lugged distribution block near the battery? Carry a bypass wire on the harness?
So the wiring is simplified. That doesn’t really help someone who knows their circuit.
The Hal will need to be swapped.
“Black boxes should be kept to a minimum. You never need just one black box. You need two. Black boxes always fail at some point.
Don’t put all of you black boxes into one basket.”
Paraphrased quote from Carrol Smith.
The Hal by nature cannot be as robust as a separate analog component system due to voltage drop and cooling/ heating cycles.
The repair of the typical failed Hal would be easily fixed and returned to service but the downtime is considerable.
You really need two Hal’s. This is where I say Nope. The cost is too steep for me.
And I know my wiring like the back of my hand.
I fully understand why the Hal is so great for so many users and I think it’s fantastic but I don’t think they understand that they really need two to have a complete system.
Tell me you never had an ecu fail on a fuel injection system. I’ve never ran a fuel injection system without a spare ecu.
At least not after the first time. Lol
P.S. that’s nearly 3k or so for a complete Hal system if I were to run one.
That’s way too rich for my blood for anything less than a full custom street car or race car.
Do you have any data on PDM failure? What makes you fear that any more than your engine failing which is also expensive and probably not something you have in your toolbox in pit lane either?
Your opinion is your opinion, but it is at odds with many others even if they too feel the cost of a PDM outweighs the benefit, but the benefits are certainly there and well documented 🤓- Taz.
great but its still about 8k which is more than my FD RX7 is worth - make it China and lower the cost so us weekend warriors can afford it - there are millions of us dads out there with project cars in sheds waiting to come back to life, but we are not saddo`s still living in moms basement we have families to pay for and mortgages etc so we cant spend all weekend fapping over race car but we still have 3-5k to spend on it which is generous since when you list race car for sale to pay for daughters wedding or uni fees your race car is worthless online and punters dont care if you have Haltech installed you still get offered less than the race cars scrap value . So this stuff is a complete waste of money its like hookers or cocaine or holidays you never get the money back come sale time its all wasted, so if the $$ is going to go up in smoke then it needs to be cheaper like a casino where you know its a waste but you can choose to either waste small on the slots or waste big on thhe tables.
the haltech pd16 with a harness is $1995,where did u get $8,000 from ?
@@njclsx4252 I live in the UK. Can you buy me one for 2k and ship it here ? thanks
£8,000 is not correct. It's £962.40 or £1219.20 with the flying lead harness - www.haltech.com/product-category/inputs-and-can-expansion-products/power-management/
Note we don't sell any hardware, we're just talking about it, but thought I would address that statement as it is really is a bit out of line with the truth.
Not being able to afford something and something being over priced are 2 different things. We all know the struggles of life, finances and car projects here - Taz.
@@hpa101 thanks, mine is an old race car which was built for 2006 time attack and has a mix of what was current back then like Apexi etc and the stock loom for stuff like lights and indicators, I need harness, didgidash, ECU, PDM and switch panel - the last two quotes I had for this work where £8k and £10k - none of the tuners will touch this build and only one UK race car wiring specialist will take the job on but he is booked years in advance with work from pro teams. My car has been listed for sale online for over 3 years, the build cost of my car is over 50k and in 3 years the best off ive had on the car has been to swap it for a Nissan Sunny, my brakes alone cost over 10k and have never been used. All this stuff is worthless sorry to say and getting more and more worthless each time they raise fuel prices, buy a house, buy solar panels, look after your families and futures - I know people that have ruined their entire lives and families lives with addictions like gambling, drugs and race cars - luckily I already have my house paid off and im sorted but ive seen so many people waste money on car stuff and still living at home with mum and dad aged 35.
@@hpa101 this is the mess i am dealing with - th-cam.com/video/1mccjA9GDOk/w-d-xo.html
and when the little box fails and you are 75 miles from home with nothing working, what the? No thank you.
You're in the same situation you are if your engine fails, you have a fire, your gearbox gives up etc etc 75 miles from no where 🤷♂️
I mean how many relays fuses do you actually carry spare in your car in case they all give out in one trip? That is about as likely to happen as your PDM failing, not that anything is infallible but by nature that are not complicated units with high failure rates.
You certainly don't need to run out and buy one just because, and nothing we are driving to work has an aftermarket PDM fitted (some OEMs do have similar setups now though), however the chance of failure is not one of the reasons why - Taz.
Ah yes, history is repeating. It’s what older guys used to say about me going injection: “When the that computer gizmo fails you’re gonna wish you had an carburetor! Now excuse me while I adjust the mixture for the 3rd time this month”
Seems like blatant advertising. Kindly shove off, mate.
The electronic switches used for the "smart fusing" can fail shorted. This leaves the wiring totally unprotected and vulnerable. This is not a substitute for conventional fuses. See paper at: www.how2power.com/newsletters/2011/articles/H2PToday2011_design_RedHillLabs.pdf?NOREDIR=1
Everything can fail. Nothing is infallible.
The fact that you'll exclusively find some form of PDM in every form of top level motorsport probably tells you that these teams and manufacturers with unlimited budgets consider solid state to be a reliable substitute to fuses and relays though - Andre.
@@hpa101 You're "not even wrong"!