Thanks for this talk, Ayya. As you have pointed out, all our robes were originally designed to be simple rectangles. Modern blouses and jackets that have tailored sleeves are very far from what was originally intended by the vinaya.
Hello, Ayya Vimalanyani. I hope you are well. I remember your interesting series of talks on the Buddhist Insights channel, about the early Bhikkhuni Sangha and the way they have been remembered (or not) in mainstream Buddhist studies. Thank you.
You know, monastics have disrobed because of every Monastery dictating their way is the right way, their chanting is right, their robe colour is correct. Now this about sleeves. I shake my head at one who has gone forth concerned about how a garment looks! I thought the Buddha taught us to keep the precepts and renounce the fetters . May you be free from suffering 🙏
As a bhikkhu ( male monk), i used to be touched by a samenera ( young male monk) touch to my body when i sleep and i known that he is gay, so i wore closed robe more than traditional way to protect me from other one’s mind. This is a personal experience. I just do thing to good for me and other ones. I do some research about history of costume in India from Royal to normal people and i see traditional monk robe who are designed similar with these costumes. Because the main purpose of robe is cover body from far away cold weather, other animals and humans ( who are attracted by my body).
How interesting! I was wondering what the rule for covering up below the clavicle is in 2024 for a Monastic who is giving an online (and thefore public) Dhamma teaching while in a monastery. One can sometimes see video recordings of male monks giving online talks with their right breast exposed, not having noticed that their robe has shifted. Those recordings do go up (e.g. on TH-cam), so I guess this is fine, but would it also be fine for a female monk / a Bhikkhuni? Thank you! 🙏🙏🙏
Hello! Technically that would be perfectly fine for both bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, since in the monastery one could even be topless. 😄 We should keep in mind that it is only been a century or so that in South-East Asia and South Asia showing the nipple has been a big deal at all. 100 years ago it was customary for both men and women to go around topless (including in the temple), so exposing the breast would not have been a big deal. My understanding of the monastic rule for being "well-covered" is that it has little to do with modesty, and more to do with keeping one's identity of a monastic when in town and not look like every other layperson (in order not to get distracted with worldly things and mindgle with laypeople) while also not leaving one's robes around and risking to lose them (we have other rules that also cover that).
Theruwansaranai Ayya! I wonder if you would have any familiarity with the (unusally not outright stated but certainly frowned upon and criticized) attitude of monks in SL who seem to believe that covering both shoulders with their robes is somehow prohibited for nuns? Seeing a nun on alms round with donning her robes with both shoulders covered would certainly subject one to criticism here.
@buddhistinsights I'm wondering if this has something to do with many people in Sri Lanka believeing that Theravada bhikkhunī "don't exist", and therefore a female monastic must be a 10-precept nun. I'm not familiar with the rules for 10-precept nuns, but possibly they are not "allowed" to wear their robes as the bhikkhu do. Ayyā Soma, perhaps you could offer some insight 🙏
From Ayyā Somā: “According to the Vinaya there would not be any visible difference between Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis and how they wear their robes, which includes almsround. Any effort to make Bhikkhunis wear their robes differently than Bhikkhus is a modern innovation.”
Lay women cover up as much as possible when visiting a monastery (no matter how hot it is). If according to vinaya, female monastics have to cover both the shoulders when they go out, shouldn't it be the same while giving a talk online? It's like going out to so many places. Both male and female monastic keeping the vinaya rules is the reason why we still can hear and practise dhamma today. Preserving it for the future generations is extremely important. The Sāsana is more important and bigger than anything. So what's important is the continuous of this sāsana by keeping and trusting in vinaya rules, so that dhamma vinaya would last as long as possible.
Thank you for your question. I am working on a video that also gives context to modesty customs for lay-women in detail. In the meanwhile, as also briefly shown in the video above, the custom of covering up women's bodies (monastics and lay) is less than a century old in most Theravada Buddhist countries. Since for 2400 years there have been no expectations to cover up bodies in temples (women were even going topless to the temple, to the horror of British colonizers) I would be hesitant to equate following modesty rules to the preservation of the Sāsana, since what we are seeing nowadays is quite an opposite trend: a loss of faith of the younger generations. Lastly, according to Vinaya one needs to be "well-covered" only when going in the village. The definition of well-covered is still a matter of debate among bhikkhus on whether or not that entails covering the shoulder (as only the commentary specifies that, and not everyone considers the commentary to be authoritative). All that is clear from the rules is that one should not go around topless in the village, but always have the upper robe on in those occasions. As far as equating online talks with going out in public, that is a far stretch, as we do not have special rules in the Vinaya dictating the outfits of monastics who, by using special powers, were manifesting in different locations at the same time for example. Either way, even the most strict Vinaya commentary upholder bhikkhu does not interpret the rule in that way, so if one feels strongly about the subject matter, one should present this first to such bhikkhus.
![[LIVE] BABYMONSTER(베이비몬스터) - DRIP | 두시탈출 컬투쇼](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UG05pxLGwzc/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you so much for this excellent summary of the bhikkhuni Vinaya in relation to the wearing of the robes, like a cool breeze on a hot day 🙏🙏🙏
I have never heard this topic discussed before. Thank you Ayya Soma. I really appreciate this talk. Sadhu! 🙏
Sādhu! Sādhu! Sādhu! Very thorough and clearly explained 🙏🙏🙏
Thank you for this very clear presentation Ayya Soma. Grazie!! Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu
Thanks for this talk, Ayya. As you have pointed out, all our robes were originally designed to be simple rectangles. Modern blouses and jackets that have tailored sleeves are very far from what was originally intended by the vinaya.
Hello, Ayya Vimalanyani. I hope you are well. I remember your interesting series of talks on the Buddhist Insights channel, about the early Bhikkhuni Sangha and the way they have been remembered (or not) in mainstream Buddhist studies. Thank you.
You know, monastics have disrobed because of every Monastery dictating their way is the right way, their chanting is right, their robe colour is correct. Now this about sleeves. I shake my head at one who has gone forth concerned about how a garment looks! I thought the Buddha taught us to keep the precepts and renounce the fetters . May you be free from suffering 🙏
Thank you, Venerable. I am grateful for all your great teachings which have informed my current understanding and practice of Vinaya.
Thank you, Ayya. Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu. I never knew what was meant by "upper" and "lower" robes.
Interesting and educational. Thank you and Much Love from the Philippines.
Thanks for the detailed explanation.
Wonderful explanation. 🙏🙏🙏
Wow thank you so much for this! ❤
As a bhikkhu ( male monk), i used to be touched by a samenera ( young male monk) touch to my body when i sleep and i known that he is gay, so i wore closed robe more than traditional way to protect me from other one’s mind. This is a personal experience. I just do thing to good for me and other ones.
I do some research about history of costume in India from Royal to normal people and i see traditional monk robe who are designed similar with these costumes. Because the main purpose of robe is cover body from far away cold weather, other animals and humans ( who are attracted by my body).
How interesting! I was wondering what the rule for covering up below the clavicle is in 2024 for a Monastic who is giving an online (and thefore public) Dhamma teaching while in a monastery. One can sometimes see video recordings of male monks giving online talks with their right breast exposed, not having noticed that their robe has shifted. Those recordings do go up (e.g. on TH-cam), so I guess this is fine, but would it also be fine for a female monk / a Bhikkhuni? Thank you! 🙏🙏🙏
You mean Ajahn Brahm last week. 😢
Hello! Technically that would be perfectly fine for both bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, since in the monastery one could even be topless. 😄 We should keep in mind that it is only been a century or so that in South-East Asia and South Asia showing the nipple has been a big deal at all. 100 years ago it was customary for both men and women to go around topless (including in the temple), so exposing the breast would not have been a big deal. My understanding of the monastic rule for being "well-covered" is that it has little to do with modesty, and more to do with keeping one's identity of a monastic when in town and not look like every other layperson (in order not to get distracted with worldly things and mindgle with laypeople) while also not leaving one's robes around and risking to lose them (we have other rules that also cover that).
Theruwansaranai Ayya!
I wonder if you would have any familiarity with the (unusally not outright stated but certainly frowned upon and criticized) attitude of monks in SL who seem to believe that covering both shoulders with their robes is somehow prohibited for nuns?
Seeing a nun on alms round with donning her robes with both shoulders covered would certainly subject one to criticism here.
@buddhistinsights I'm wondering if this has something to do with many people in Sri Lanka believeing that Theravada bhikkhunī "don't exist", and therefore a female monastic must be a 10-precept nun. I'm not familiar with the rules for 10-precept nuns, but possibly they are not "allowed" to wear their robes as the bhikkhu do. Ayyā Soma, perhaps you could offer some insight 🙏
From Ayyā Somā:
“According to the Vinaya there would not be any visible difference between Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis and how they wear their robes, which includes almsround. Any effort to make Bhikkhunis wear their robes differently than Bhikkhus is a modern innovation.”
☸️🙏🛐
🙏🙏🙏
Lay women cover up as much as possible when visiting a monastery (no matter how hot it is).
If according to vinaya, female monastics have to cover both the shoulders when they go out, shouldn't it be the same while giving a talk online? It's like going out to so many places.
Both male and female monastic keeping the vinaya rules is the reason why we still can hear and practise dhamma today. Preserving it for the future generations is extremely important. The Sāsana is more important and bigger than anything.
So what's important is the continuous of this sāsana by keeping and trusting in vinaya rules, so that dhamma vinaya would last as long as possible.
Thank you for your question. I am working on a video that also gives context to modesty customs for lay-women in detail. In the meanwhile, as also briefly shown in the video above, the custom of covering up women's bodies (monastics and lay) is less than a century old in most Theravada Buddhist countries. Since for 2400 years there have been no expectations to cover up bodies in temples (women were even going topless to the temple, to the horror of British colonizers) I would be hesitant to equate following modesty rules to the preservation of the Sāsana, since what we are seeing nowadays is quite an opposite trend: a loss of faith of the younger generations. Lastly, according to Vinaya one needs to be "well-covered" only when going in the village. The definition of well-covered is still a matter of debate among bhikkhus on whether or not that entails covering the shoulder (as only the commentary specifies that, and not everyone considers the commentary to be authoritative). All that is clear from the rules is that one should not go around topless in the village, but always have the upper robe on in those occasions. As far as equating online talks with going out in public, that is a far stretch, as we do not have special rules in the Vinaya dictating the outfits of monastics who, by using special powers, were manifesting in different locations at the same time for example. Either way, even the most strict Vinaya commentary upholder bhikkhu does not interpret the rule in that way, so if one feels strongly about the subject matter, one should present this first to such bhikkhus.
🙏🙏🙏
🙏🙏🙏🙏