What you're not taking into account is the culture of the era and the way people played but you are correct about the manufacturing stuff and the pianos being newer. If you listen to someone like Jelly Roll Morton, Cow Cow Davenport, etc these guys played LOUD!!!!! People don't play like this today. None of this dainty finger playing stuff. They were playing in saloons and brothels and you had to play a way that cut through a crowd. Playing like that night after night would cause any upright to go out of tune and fast. Someone who played ragtime in New Orleans mentioned only one madam (Willie Piazza) was the only landlady who kept her piano in tune. Though what people REALLY need to take away from this is there is NO "authentic" sound font, or type of piano for ragtime. Pianos differed so much from place to place, culture to culture, region to region. Ragtime is often put in a straight jacket by too many. An in-tune parlour piano AND a beat up saloon piano are both "authentic."
Yeah they did play loud but at least they were doing it musically and not mindlessly beating the life out of the pianos they played. I doubt Morton broke strings in the pianos he played (a good pianist can play louder than life and still keep all the notes intact). Them playing loud wouldn't have driven the piano out of tune necessarily (as I said, the instruments were relatively new so the pinblocks were tight and the pianos wouldn't go as horribly out of tune over the whole scale like a 120 year old upright would after going ten years without a tuning) but it would certainly pack down the felts in the hammers and maybe 20 years later they'd have to be voiced down again. Agreed as well that there is no definitive ragtime sound. Ragtime was played on grands, uprights, square pianos, spinets, you name it! The point stands however that the whole "the piano needs to be totally wrecked to sound good with ragtime" myth was largely impossible. Always glad to have someone who really knows his stuff in the comment sections Nick :) Thanks for putting in your thoughts!
Oh one thing I should add is that the ragtime era obviously predated Morton's time and the rougher and louder years of piano playing when I think the music was still lighter so less forceful on the instrument. I doubt the early teens pianists were being quite as hard on the pianos but I could be wrong there. One way or another the pianos were still relatively unbashed. By the time ragtime's craze died off a bit would've probably been the time when the pianos were due for some more maintenance but instead were allowed to get really worn out.
@@PiotrBarcz It all depends on the place and setting whether it's a parlor or railroad camp saloon. Jelly Roll Morton was a contemporary of Lamb, James Scott, Artie Mathews etc. all born only a few years apart.
Yeah, i hate when i see videos where they say "I just got an out of tune piano, what's the first thing we should do? Play some ragtime." Thank you for spreading sensible information.
Yeah, it ticks me off when people say "Aw hell nah the piano should be out of tune and jangly, this sounds bad on a grand BLAH BLAH BLAH" And I'm just sitting there yelling at them "Shut your trap and appreciate the music".
@@PiotrBarczvinheteiro's videos have plenty of comments like that. Oh and don't get me started about the ones in the cheap vs expensive pianos videos🦊🎹🎶
@@MERCEDES-BENZS600GUARD_V12 Oh goodness yeah. However quite a few comments in those expensive vs cheap piano videos I personally think are justified. A lot of the new pianos just end up sounding all the same while the old ones have at least some difference between them.
@@PiotrBarcz I agree to that threw some extent. What I can't get ober is that most just hear the Yamaha upright probably a 48 inches Yamaha B3, Yamaha GB1 5 feet 3 inches most likely a Yamaha GB1K , Yamaha C2 5 feet 8 inches definitely a Yamaha C2X, and the 9 feet Yamaha CFX threw selphone/tablet/laptop/PC speakers, and expect to hear a big difference. I just say "the difference is likely more noticeable in person than it is threw the video🦊🎹🎶
@@PiotrBarcz for those saying they like old pianos because it reminds them of old wild west saloons I some times tell them to go check out Roberts Pianos, and LivingPianosvideos videos on old pianos so that they'll hear old pianos don't actually sound like this🦊🎹🎶
With my player piano, I was very precise with how I tuned it. I notice the tuning pins were super weirdly arranged (just one out of many weird parts of my piano) like some were placed really high up on the harp and some really low. As it turns out, it was to make the piano have a “celeste” sound. On the notes with 3 strings per hammer, the top string was tuned 4 cents sharp, and the bottom was tuned 4 cents flat, and the middle was perfectly in tune. At first, I was apprehensive about doing that since I had never heard of such a thing. Finally I decided to try it since the strings were kind of deviating that way anyway and it sounded really amazing. It felt a lot more whole and had a really nice depth to the sound. Also, mandolin rails aren’t just for dipwads :)
Was it a 3 pins up high 3 pins down low and not the common checkerboard pattern? That's a common pinning method on higher quality American pianos. My Bush & Lane has the same arrangement. It's to keep the pinblock from cracking as when the pins are spaced out there's more support around each pin. If the piano was made to have widened unisons then by all means, tune it how it's built! :D But don't let old pianos that were meant to be tuned sit out of tune in the name of honky-tonk, that's what a mandolin rail is for (I call people dipwads for tacking good hammers in a solid old upright that doesn't deserve to have that kind of abuse done to it). Leaving a piano out of tune for extended periods of time will ruin the strings and anyone who then wants to get the piano in tune will need to replace the whole set (hundreds of dollars worth of work).
@@PiotrBarcz It uses a very similar arrangement of the pins to high quality American pianos, but it’s almost like an upside down wave. The company Pease (my player pianos brand) was known for doing this on their high quality pianos. It sounds really amazing when tuned how it’s meant to be tuned!
yes, very true that the beat up sound was never of that era, but there is (at least for me sometimes) an unexplainable attraction to a piano thats odd and a bit out of tune, but not by too much. The piano you played there sounded pretty good at least, and we both know my affinity for Max Keenlyside's old Kirkman!
Amen, brother!! I have made the same point...any self-respecting MUSICIAN will tune their instrument!!! 🙄 In fact, it seems most of the player piano recordings out here are horribly out of tune... it makes me sad because it's really the easiest and cheapest things you can do to take a piano from "terrible," to "very nice!"
Indeed! Pianos tuned always sound better, always hold up better, and always play better. Two fellow player piano enthusiasts tuned their pianos after I adamantly suggested it and good lord the difference was like NIGHT AND DAY. The instruments finally sang, didn't have a dead tone, and they didn't have ear gratingly awful chords in the high register.
Well, Euday L. Bowman recorded his 12th Street Rag on a pretty beat up piano for some reason. For authenticity (likely bs) or because it was the best thing at hand. Either way I think beat up pianos were probably as common as ones in good condition. The pinned comment is spot on.
Could also be the recording quality. Those old and rather unevenly pitched tape and shellac recordings made most pianos sound 30 years older than they were. Pianos don't go out of tune very fast even if they're being beat on 24/7 so what Nick mentioned is probably musicians calling pianos that were out of tune but not ruined really badly out of tune when I imagine they were pretty much playable just fine with some warbling in the treble. Unless the pinblock was shot in the piano (and it takes 100 years for that to happen) then the pianos were likely only going out of tune a bit at a time and would probably be tuned once every few years at best but that still wouldn't allow them to sound as bad as the pianos most people associate with the hollywood ragtime stereotype.
@@PiotrBarcz Pretty sure Bowman's piano is out of tune. I tgink you can even hear the clicking sound and it's so badly out of pitch that I don't think this can be caused by the recording on itself. But yea, the ragtime stereo type is obviously bull.
@@tutentyp6934 Maybe it was. Keep in mind also that pianos were tuned to 435 so they'll sound flat if you have a stronger sense of absolute pitch. Weren't those recordings made in the 30s too or the late 20s? By that time the pianos were definitely starting to get broken in shall we say xD
Could it be that people like ragtime played on out of tune pianos, because it sounds freakin awesome? There is no such thing as something being objectively bad in music. You say it sounds worse yet sometimes it's that roughness you want in a musical piece. I know a thing or two about playing the piano, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying the detune and dissonance that come with an old piano. It adds a new texture to the sound and quite frankly it's my favorite piano sound out of any piano. Just because people like the detuned sound doesn't mean they hate the piano, what's that about? There are no "good and bad" instruments. People like different things and there are no objectively good or bad instruments.
I don't mind the sound of a lightly detuned piano myself. In fact, I'm a diehard fan of the honky-tonk piano sound (especially when the piano just barely warbles a bit) but it is by no means authentic and people constantly saying it is and deameaning pianists who play ragtime on a pristinely maintained grand piano drive me nuts. That's the main reason I made the video. Ragtime (AND CLASSICAL and really anything else) sound great on a piano with warbling unisons. But a piano in general will always sound worse detuned. When a piano's detuned the notes: 1. Decay faster because of destructive interference in the string vibrations 2. Have less clarity in the attack of the note making out of tune pianos sound mushy and it makes it VERY hard to play without abusing the sustain pedal which ends up destroying any hopes of performing the piece with any sort of expression other than loud and banging 3. I said this in the video, if you leave a piano too far out of tune it ruins the strings, you might not care, but the next owner is going to put 600 dollars into restringing 230 pieces of wire. I'm not against having an old upright slightly detuned, but most people will go and say that it needs to be a half step flat, have hammers flat as dimes, a clicking action and worse yet they'll pour lacquer all over the hammers and end up ruining them resulting in a 1000 dollar repair job down the line.
Hey Piotr, I might have to throw in just a little curve ball to your presentation here, but only in the best of friendly piano chat 😉 There was one area/culture where brand new pianos were delivered and already very much out of tune. The Hawaiian islands prior to August 1914 was the place. Let me explain. Most US piano manufacturers were on the east coast at the beginning of the 20th century with Over a hundred different piano manufactureres at that time in the US. To ship anything to Hawaii required a 5-6 month boat ride down the east coast, around Cape Horn in Chile and finally to Hawaii. This was the route until the Panama Canal opened in August 1914. By the time those pianos left east coast shipping yards and sat on rickety wooden sailing ships tossed about on the waves, subjected to all that moisture, movement, transportation, etc. ... it is well documented that brand new pianos arriving in Honolulu were already very flat and out of tune. Added to the lack of piano tuners there, the people of Hawaii thought that's how a new piano was supposed to sound. In general, they didn't know the difference. That had a trickle down effect on their music in which you find ukulele, guitars, marimbas etc all being tuned to match a piano.... which resulted in many a Hawaiian waltz that sounded off tune to experienced ears. To them, this was the norm. It wasn't until later when the voyage was shortened and a few tuners on the islands did they realize their new pianos had been out of tune from the day they arrived in Hawaii. You mentioned Jo Ann Castle in this video. I'm a huge fan of hers. Own all her albums, and most of her QRS rolls. She generally only used 2 pianos on the Welk show for the 11 years as a regular from 1958-1969 , one being an old Baldwin. Thats the one Big Tiny Little used before her. Her pianos were surely decorated and painted to the extreme and to match her number, but they were always in tune! They had to be so that she would be in tune with the rest of the Welk orchestra who played along with her. Welk required that. Many numbers were prerecorded. At times, there had been a bar dropped between the hammers and the strings so that hammers weren't hitting strings, instead striking the bar but gave the appearance of really playing for the camera. For all her record albums, most on the Ranwood label, the recording happened with the Baldwin in tune at the Welk theater. I've met her a couple of times and watched her perform live and she talked about some of these very things. She pounded the piano, no doubt, but it was in tune 😊. Just a fun few items to add here. Thanks!
Wow good point about hawaiian pianos! Jeez they must've taken a real beating over that trip considering that the shipping conditions were less than ideal. I mean, even my Francis Bacon shipped to Poland 4 years ago went from A 440 to 444 and now has slowly been dropping back to 440 since then xD Good point about Jo Ann Castle's pianos being in tune. I've heard recordings where she played on beat out old uprights though however they were at least kept up to pitch. They were still pretty worn out from what I recall though. I had no idea they prerecorded tunes with a silent rail, that's interesting. I wonder if you can see note discrepancies where the audio and visuals don't line up?
@@PiotrBarcz Yes, your Francis Bacon experienced travel too!. . But in much more favorable conditions and look what happened! Also consider the fact no telephones connected Hawaii with the mainland until 1957, you just didn't call the piano store to talk with them about out of tune pianos!! The people of Hawaii just lived with. .... and loved their brand new pianos that were out of tune. Next time you play a marimba style waltz roll...... ignore modern day expectations and just enjoy it as they would've so long ago! Jo Ann's performances were theatrical indeed and many a song is played where she might run her fingers up in a run for the live show but the recording has her going down. Since there was no such thing as rewind in the 60s, most people couldn't catch it with just one chance. If you search her playing Minnie The Mermaid, as a pianist you'll immediately know there's no way she can be laying on her side , not looking at the keys and supposedly hitting the right keys! Welk made her do all kinds of crazy things for the show. I've watched her countless times to immediately identify the 2 different pianos. Whenever she did play live for the show, they used the Baldwin. High Hopes and Swanee immediately come to mind as live performances. There were many others too. Her "San Francisco " performance is on the other piano and prerecorded. The piano is a trolley car in that number. Jo Ann is still alive and turned 85 this month. I understand she's in a rest home now and unable to really play much at all which breaks my heart. I've been a fan since the 70s of her.
@@SevenPlus65 Haha yeah! Sometimes you just have to love the wear and tear for what it is! It's cool that Jo Ann's still around, though I did hear she suffered a stroke some 30 years ago and didn't play much after that. Sad to hear she's sitting around in a senior home probably bored to death like so many other pianists who lose their ability to play well.
Soundfont? A restored 1890s upright piano sampled about ten years after the restoration has been done and after the piano has been played thoroughly to break in the new strings. That or a grand piano from the same era at about the same point in time after the restoration was completed.
It is to me xD As someone who does piano technician work as a hobby, has owned several VERY old upright pianos and treats pianos as something more than big heavy expensive noise makers, this is a painful subject for me. I've seen too many people literally insult respectable pianists who play ragtime and other older genres on well maintained pianos because they think it's ruining the music.
@@PiotrBarczI'm sure you seen one of vinheteiro's videos comparing cheep old out of tune pianos to expensive pianos? I can't count how meny times I replied "the difference is likely more noticeable in person than it is threw the video" LOL! Yeah there are also (so meny) comments saying they like the cheaper ones because it reminds them of old wild west saloons and what not. I some times tell them to look at Roberts Pianos or LivingPianosvideos of old pianos so that they'll hear old pianos don't actually sound like this🦊🎹🎶
I think there is a bit of a misconception that anyone from the olden days was necessarily thick and primitive. People were all just as intelligent as they are now but just happened to not have access to TikTok. I guess in that sense, they were arguably more intelligent. Also, if they could get hold of a piano then they could definitely tune the goddamn thing.
Yes I agree. Now days pianos are furniture and not bought with the intention of being functional instruments. Back in the day pianos were of HIGH QUALITY, they were built with IMMACULATE craftsmanship and they were meant to LAST. People treated them with respect and even the pianos that got cigarette burns and god knows what else in the really rough joints were still in better shape than what a lot of boneheaded idiots these days say period correct pianos should be.
@@PiotrBarcz worth noting as well that it would have been a heavy investment and something to be proud of. I doubt the purchase would have been taken lightly and it would have been nurtured, particularly if that was a primary source of entertainment for customers in an establishment. People were generally more proud of their things even 40 years ago, because you couldn't just whack things on your credit card and import them on the cheap from China. Even clothes were looked after more than they are now.
@@PotatoPirate123 Exactly! Pianos had value before China and Korea started producing, and yes I'll say it, PIANO SHAPED SH*T which was then imported here and then destroyed the piano market in the USA by result. Mason & Hamlin is the ONLY American piano brand in existence that NEVER lowered their standards for the instruments. Even when production was slow the instruments were still TRUE Mason & Hamlins not this stencil bullhockey that Korean brands do to grab people's attention with "established in 1849". HA, my ass was established in 1849 if Hardman & Peck pianos produced today are from the same company from 1849! Pearl River produces them all and they'll never measure up! Sohmer was also produced until the 1990s with good standards for quality. It's too bad the Burgett brothers who now own and produce Mason & Hamlins didn't revive the Sohmer brand too. I have a 1925 Sohmer Cupid grand that is basically a Steinway M just better.
What you're not taking into account is the culture of the era and the way people played but you are correct about the manufacturing stuff and the pianos being newer. If you listen to someone like Jelly Roll Morton, Cow Cow Davenport, etc these guys played LOUD!!!!! People don't play like this today. None of this dainty finger playing stuff. They were playing in saloons and brothels and you had to play a way that cut through a crowd. Playing like that night after night would cause any upright to go out of tune and fast. Someone who played ragtime in New Orleans mentioned only one madam (Willie Piazza) was the only landlady who kept her piano in tune.
Though what people REALLY need to take away from this is there is NO "authentic" sound font, or type of piano for ragtime. Pianos differed so much from place to place, culture to culture, region to region. Ragtime is often put in a straight jacket by too many. An in-tune parlour piano AND a beat up saloon piano are both "authentic."
Yeah they did play loud but at least they were doing it musically and not mindlessly beating the life out of the pianos they played. I doubt Morton broke strings in the pianos he played (a good pianist can play louder than life and still keep all the notes intact).
Them playing loud wouldn't have driven the piano out of tune necessarily (as I said, the instruments were relatively new so the pinblocks were tight and the pianos wouldn't go as horribly out of tune over the whole scale like a 120 year old upright would after going ten years without a tuning) but it would certainly pack down the felts in the hammers and maybe 20 years later they'd have to be voiced down again.
Agreed as well that there is no definitive ragtime sound. Ragtime was played on grands, uprights, square pianos, spinets, you name it! The point stands however that the whole "the piano needs to be totally wrecked to sound good with ragtime" myth was largely impossible.
Always glad to have someone who really knows his stuff in the comment sections Nick :) Thanks for putting in your thoughts!
Oh one thing I should add is that the ragtime era obviously predated Morton's time and the rougher and louder years of piano playing when I think the music was still lighter so less forceful on the instrument.
I doubt the early teens pianists were being quite as hard on the pianos but I could be wrong there. One way or another the pianos were still relatively unbashed. By the time ragtime's craze died off a bit would've probably been the time when the pianos were due for some more maintenance but instead were allowed to get really worn out.
@@PiotrBarcz It all depends on the place and setting whether it's a parlor or railroad camp saloon. Jelly Roll Morton was a contemporary of Lamb, James Scott, Artie Mathews etc. all born only a few years apart.
@@nickarteaga175 True, true.
Yeah, i hate when i see videos where they say
"I just got an out of tune piano, what's the first thing we should do? Play some ragtime."
Thank you for spreading sensible information.
Yeah, it ticks me off when people say "Aw hell nah the piano should be out of tune and jangly, this sounds bad on a grand BLAH BLAH BLAH" And I'm just sitting there yelling at them "Shut your trap and appreciate the music".
@@PiotrBarczvinheteiro's videos have plenty of comments like that. Oh and don't get me started about the ones in the cheap vs expensive pianos videos🦊🎹🎶
@@MERCEDES-BENZS600GUARD_V12 Oh goodness yeah. However quite a few comments in those expensive vs cheap piano videos I personally think are justified. A lot of the new pianos just end up sounding all the same while the old ones have at least some difference between them.
@@PiotrBarcz I agree to that threw some extent. What I can't get ober is that most just hear the Yamaha upright probably a 48 inches Yamaha B3, Yamaha GB1 5 feet 3 inches most likely a Yamaha GB1K , Yamaha C2 5 feet 8 inches definitely a Yamaha C2X, and the 9 feet Yamaha CFX threw selphone/tablet/laptop/PC speakers, and expect to hear a big difference. I just say "the difference is likely more noticeable in person than it is threw the video🦊🎹🎶
@@PiotrBarcz for those saying they like old pianos because it reminds them of old wild west saloons I some times tell them to go check out Roberts Pianos, and LivingPianosvideos videos on old pianos so that they'll hear old pianos don't actually sound like this🦊🎹🎶
lmao you are so upset, I feel you man
It really is worthy of righteous indignation.
Yeah you should see me rage with people in the comment sections over this. It's absolutely insane.
@@PiotrBarcz 🤣🤣
@@PiotrBarczi soryyyyyyy: '{
@@WeegeeFan1Studios ? xD
I appreciate your passion and knowledge, sir!
Thank you :)
dam str8
.
You got it!
With my player piano, I was very precise with how I tuned it. I notice the tuning pins were super weirdly arranged (just one out of many weird parts of my piano) like some were placed really high up on the harp and some really low. As it turns out, it was to make the piano have a “celeste” sound. On the notes with 3 strings per hammer, the top string was tuned 4 cents sharp, and the bottom was tuned 4 cents flat, and the middle was perfectly in tune. At first, I was apprehensive about doing that since I had never heard of such a thing. Finally I decided to try it since the strings were kind of deviating that way anyway and it sounded really amazing. It felt a lot more whole and had a really nice depth to the sound.
Also, mandolin rails aren’t just for dipwads :)
Was it a 3 pins up high 3 pins down low and not the common checkerboard pattern?
That's a common pinning method on higher quality American pianos. My Bush & Lane has the same arrangement. It's to keep the pinblock from cracking as when the pins are spaced out there's more support around each pin.
If the piano was made to have widened unisons then by all means, tune it how it's built! :D But don't let old pianos that were meant to be tuned sit out of tune in the name of honky-tonk, that's what a mandolin rail is for (I call people dipwads for tacking good hammers in a solid old upright that doesn't deserve to have that kind of abuse done to it). Leaving a piano out of tune for extended periods of time will ruin the strings and anyone who then wants to get the piano in tune will need to replace the whole set (hundreds of dollars worth of work).
@@PiotrBarcz It uses a very similar arrangement of the pins to high quality American pianos, but it’s almost like an upside down wave. The company Pease (my player pianos brand) was known for doing this on their high quality pianos. It sounds really amazing when tuned how it’s meant to be tuned!
@@PiotrBarcz It’s not done yet, but it’s set to be done before Halloween hopefully!
@@aspensmusicandrestoration Oh yeah it's a Pease! They're fantastic!
@@aspensmusicandrestoration Good luck on the restoration :) I'm looking forward to hearing it!
yes, very true that the beat up sound was never of that era, but there is (at least for me sometimes) an unexplainable attraction to a piano thats odd and a bit out of tune, but not by too much. The piano you played there sounded pretty good at least, and we both know my affinity for Max Keenlyside's old Kirkman!
Indeed. Though my piano is pushing it, I like pianos that are in tune with themselves but have slightly widened unisons.
@@PiotrBarcz I can’t argue with the sound of that!
Amen, brother!! I have made the same point...any self-respecting MUSICIAN will tune their instrument!!! 🙄 In fact, it seems most of the player piano recordings out here are horribly out of tune... it makes me sad because it's really the easiest and cheapest things you can do to take a piano from "terrible," to "very nice!"
Indeed! Pianos tuned always sound better, always hold up better, and always play better.
Two fellow player piano enthusiasts tuned their pianos after I adamantly suggested it and good lord the difference was like NIGHT AND DAY.
The instruments finally sang, didn't have a dead tone, and they didn't have ear gratingly awful chords in the high register.
@PiotrBarcz spread that gospel my brother!🤣
Well, Euday L. Bowman recorded his 12th Street Rag on a pretty beat up piano for some reason. For authenticity (likely bs) or because it was the best thing at hand. Either way I think beat up pianos were probably as common as ones in good condition. The pinned comment is spot on.
Could also be the recording quality. Those old and rather unevenly pitched tape and shellac recordings made most pianos sound 30 years older than they were.
Pianos don't go out of tune very fast even if they're being beat on 24/7 so what Nick mentioned is probably musicians calling pianos that were out of tune but not ruined really badly out of tune when I imagine they were pretty much playable just fine with some warbling in the treble.
Unless the pinblock was shot in the piano (and it takes 100 years for that to happen) then the pianos were likely only going out of tune a bit at a time and would probably be tuned once every few years at best but that still wouldn't allow them to sound as bad as the pianos most people associate with the hollywood ragtime stereotype.
@@PiotrBarcz Pretty sure Bowman's piano is out of tune. I tgink you can even hear the clicking sound and it's so badly out of pitch that I don't think this can be caused by the recording on itself. But yea, the ragtime stereo type is obviously bull.
@@tutentyp6934 Maybe it was. Keep in mind also that pianos were tuned to 435 so they'll sound flat if you have a stronger sense of absolute pitch.
Weren't those recordings made in the 30s too or the late 20s? By that time the pianos were definitely starting to get broken in shall we say xD
ragtime fan vs ragtime enjoyer
Yup xD
Could it be that people like ragtime played on out of tune pianos, because it sounds freakin awesome?
There is no such thing as something being objectively bad in music. You say it sounds worse yet sometimes it's that roughness you want in a musical piece. I know a thing or two about playing the piano, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying the detune and dissonance that come with an old piano. It adds a new texture to the sound and quite frankly it's my favorite piano sound out of any piano. Just because people like the detuned sound doesn't mean they hate the piano, what's that about? There are no "good and bad" instruments. People like different things and there are no objectively good or bad instruments.
I don't mind the sound of a lightly detuned piano myself. In fact, I'm a diehard fan of the honky-tonk piano sound (especially when the piano just barely warbles a bit) but it is by no means authentic and people constantly saying it is and deameaning pianists who play ragtime on a pristinely maintained grand piano drive me nuts. That's the main reason I made the video.
Ragtime (AND CLASSICAL and really anything else) sound great on a piano with warbling unisons. But a piano in general will always sound worse detuned. When a piano's detuned the notes:
1. Decay faster because of destructive interference in the string vibrations
2. Have less clarity in the attack of the note making out of tune pianos sound mushy and it makes it VERY hard to play without abusing the sustain pedal which ends up destroying any hopes of performing the piece with any sort of expression other than loud and banging
3. I said this in the video, if you leave a piano too far out of tune it ruins the strings, you might not care, but the next owner is going to put 600 dollars into restringing 230 pieces of wire.
I'm not against having an old upright slightly detuned, but most people will go and say that it needs to be a half step flat, have hammers flat as dimes, a clicking action and worse yet they'll pour lacquer all over the hammers and end up ruining them resulting in a 1000 dollar repair job down the line.
Hey Piotr, I might have to throw in just a little curve ball to your presentation here, but only in the best of friendly piano chat 😉 There was one area/culture where brand new pianos were delivered and already very much out of tune. The Hawaiian islands prior to August 1914 was the place. Let me explain. Most US piano manufacturers were on the east coast at the beginning of the 20th century with Over a hundred different piano manufactureres at that time in the US. To ship anything to Hawaii required a 5-6 month boat ride down the east coast, around Cape Horn in Chile and finally to Hawaii. This was the route until the Panama Canal opened in August 1914. By the time those pianos left east coast shipping yards and sat on rickety wooden sailing ships tossed about on the waves, subjected to all that moisture, movement, transportation, etc. ... it is well documented that brand new pianos arriving in Honolulu were already very flat and out of tune. Added to the lack of piano tuners there, the people of Hawaii thought that's how a new piano was supposed to sound. In general, they didn't know the difference. That had a trickle down effect on their music in which you find ukulele, guitars, marimbas etc all being tuned to match a piano.... which resulted in many a Hawaiian waltz that sounded off tune to experienced ears. To them, this was the norm. It wasn't until later when the voyage was shortened and a few tuners on the islands did they realize their new pianos had been out of tune from the day they arrived in Hawaii.
You mentioned Jo Ann Castle in this video. I'm a huge fan of hers. Own all her albums, and most of her QRS rolls. She generally only used 2 pianos on the Welk show for the 11 years as a regular from 1958-1969 , one being an old Baldwin. Thats the one Big Tiny Little used before her. Her pianos were surely decorated and painted to the extreme and to match her number, but they were always in tune! They had to be so that she would be in tune with the rest of the Welk orchestra who played along with her. Welk required that. Many numbers were prerecorded. At times, there had been a bar dropped between the hammers and the strings so that hammers weren't hitting strings, instead striking the bar but gave the appearance of really playing for the camera. For all her record albums, most on the Ranwood label, the recording happened with the Baldwin in tune at the Welk theater. I've met her a couple of times and watched her perform live and she talked about some of these very things. She pounded the piano, no doubt, but it was in tune 😊.
Just a fun few items to add here. Thanks!
Wow good point about hawaiian pianos! Jeez they must've taken a real beating over that trip considering that the shipping conditions were less than ideal. I mean, even my Francis Bacon shipped to Poland 4 years ago went from A 440 to 444 and now has slowly been dropping back to 440 since then xD
Good point about Jo Ann Castle's pianos being in tune. I've heard recordings where she played on beat out old uprights though however they were at least kept up to pitch. They were still pretty worn out from what I recall though.
I had no idea they prerecorded tunes with a silent rail, that's interesting. I wonder if you can see note discrepancies where the audio and visuals don't line up?
@@PiotrBarcz Yes, your Francis Bacon experienced travel too!. . But in much more favorable conditions and look what happened! Also consider the fact no telephones connected Hawaii with the mainland until 1957, you just didn't call the piano store to talk with them about out of tune pianos!! The people of Hawaii just lived with. .... and loved their brand new pianos that were out of tune. Next time you play a marimba style waltz roll...... ignore modern day expectations and just enjoy it as they would've so long ago!
Jo Ann's performances were theatrical indeed and many a song is played where she might run her fingers up in a run for the live show but the recording has her going down. Since there was no such thing as rewind in the 60s, most people couldn't catch it with just one chance. If you search her playing Minnie The Mermaid, as a pianist you'll immediately know there's no way she can be laying on her side , not looking at the keys and supposedly hitting the right keys! Welk made her do all kinds of crazy things for the show. I've watched her countless times to immediately identify the 2 different pianos. Whenever she did play live for the show, they used the Baldwin. High Hopes and Swanee immediately come to mind as live performances. There were many others too. Her "San Francisco " performance is on the other piano and prerecorded. The piano is a trolley car in that number.
Jo Ann is still alive and turned 85 this month. I understand she's in a rest home now and unable to really play much at all which breaks my heart. I've been a fan since the 70s of her.
@@PiotrBarczmaybe the same happened with the WeinStein XD🦊🎹🎶
@@MERCEDES-BENZS600GUARD_V12 xD Maybe!
@@SevenPlus65 Haha yeah! Sometimes you just have to love the wear and tear for what it is!
It's cool that Jo Ann's still around, though I did hear she suffered a stroke some 30 years ago and didn't play much after that. Sad to hear she's sitting around in a senior home probably bored to death like so many other pianists who lose their ability to play well.
Very informative! What is the best and most authentic soundfont for ragtime?
There is none. It is a Hollywood myth.
Any nicely tuned piano will do.
Soundfont? A restored 1890s upright piano sampled about ten years after the restoration has been done and after the piano has been played thoroughly to break in the new strings.
That or a grand piano from the same era at about the same point in time after the restoration was completed.
Interesting subject, but my brother in Christ, nobody needs the autistic rage tied into the history lesson. It's not that serious
It is to me xD As someone who does piano technician work as a hobby, has owned several VERY old upright pianos and treats pianos as something more than big heavy expensive noise makers, this is a painful subject for me.
I've seen too many people literally insult respectable pianists who play ragtime and other older genres on well maintained pianos because they think it's ruining the music.
i for one value the information
What kind of music did they play in saloons then?
Civil war era music. Marches, waltzes, classical music, etc.
Basically anythig under the sun at that time🦊🎹🎶
Great. Will watch later after piano practice🦊🎹🎶
👍
@@PiotrBarczI'm sure you seen one of vinheteiro's videos comparing cheep old out of tune pianos to expensive pianos? I can't count how meny times I replied "the difference is likely more noticeable in person than it is threw the video" LOL! Yeah there are also (so meny) comments saying they like the cheaper ones because it reminds them of old wild west saloons and what not. I some times tell them to look at Roberts Pianos or LivingPianosvideos of old pianos so that they'll hear old pianos don't actually sound like this🦊🎹🎶
@@PiotrBarcz don't know why my replies keep disappearing🦊🎹🎶
@@MERCEDES-BENZS600GUARD_V12 TH-cam's been doing that for like 6 years at this point and they STILL haven't fixed it.
@@PiotrBarczyeah, and we see so meny scam comments out there LOL🦊🎹🎶
I think there is a bit of a misconception that anyone from the olden days was necessarily thick and primitive. People were all just as intelligent as they are now but just happened to not have access to TikTok. I guess in that sense, they were arguably more intelligent. Also, if they could get hold of a piano then they could definitely tune the goddamn thing.
Yes I agree. Now days pianos are furniture and not bought with the intention of being functional instruments. Back in the day pianos were of HIGH QUALITY, they were built with IMMACULATE craftsmanship and they were meant to LAST.
People treated them with respect and even the pianos that got cigarette burns and god knows what else in the really rough joints were still in better shape than what a lot of boneheaded idiots these days say period correct pianos should be.
@@PiotrBarcz worth noting as well that it would have been a heavy investment and something to be proud of. I doubt the purchase would have been taken lightly and it would have been nurtured, particularly if that was a primary source of entertainment for customers in an establishment. People were generally more proud of their things even 40 years ago, because you couldn't just whack things on your credit card and import them on the cheap from China. Even clothes were looked after more than they are now.
@@PotatoPirate123 Exactly! Pianos had value before China and Korea started producing, and yes I'll say it, PIANO SHAPED SH*T which was then imported here and then destroyed the piano market in the USA by result.
Mason & Hamlin is the ONLY American piano brand in existence that NEVER lowered their standards for the instruments. Even when production was slow the instruments were still TRUE Mason & Hamlins not this stencil bullhockey that Korean brands do to grab people's attention with "established in 1849". HA, my ass was established in 1849 if Hardman & Peck pianos produced today are from the same company from 1849! Pearl River produces them all and they'll never measure up!
Sohmer was also produced until the 1990s with good standards for quality. It's too bad the Burgett brothers who now own and produce Mason & Hamlins didn't revive the Sohmer brand too. I have a 1925 Sohmer Cupid grand that is basically a Steinway M just better.
@@PiotrBarczbinn kicked off of a few public pianos in the past because they are just for display🦊🎹🎵🎶
@@MERCEDES-BENZS600GUARD_V12 :( Yeah that's annoying.