Great video, you covered pretty much every angle one can with this topic. Your explanations were clear and succinct, and the editing made it a really fun watch. It was always pretty insane to me how much shit the Zelda timeline got considering it's a series that's built up almost exclusively out of sequels and prequels, I think a lot of people may just not pay attention to story so when they learn there's an actual continuity they get put off by it. But beyond that I really couldn't even begin to guess why it's the target of so much hate, I feel like there are franchises out with with 10x more complicated lore than don't get even remotely the same level of ire. Couple things: My favorite explanation for the Downfall Timeline's existence is the "Triforce Wish" theory, no clue where it came from or who came up with it, but basically it's a theory that states that the Downfall Timeline is kinda the original timeline - all of the events play out like we know them, Link gets defeated, Ganondorf gets all the Triforce pieces and turns into Ganon, he's sealed in the Sacred Realm, eventually the Imprisoning War happens somewhere down the line, the events of ALttP happen. But the idea is that when ALttP Link wishes on the Triforce at the end of the game, whatever he wished for, whether that be something like "Undo Ganon's evil", "Bring back everything Ganon destroyed", etc, that wish rippled back in time and prevented the Hero of Time from being defeated, causing the three-way split. And when it comes to BotW and TotK's placement, I think the simplest placement for them is a refounding eons after Adventure of Link. I feel like it works the best thematically and with the information presented in the games. Downfall Timeline Hyrule is absolutely the best candidate for a Hyrule that falls and is rebirthed later down the line, with how bad of a state it was in by AoL, and constant attacks on the kingdom from Ganon is the entire timeline's theme, and that was one hint given by Aonuma as to BotW's placement back in the day. The most *direct* references to prior Zelda games pretty much all reference the Adult era of Ocarina of Time, the events of which only happen in the Adult timeline and Downfall timeline. And with the Adult timeline's Hyrule being underwater, I feel like the chances of it resurfacing with all of its old landmarks event somewhat intact like they are in BotW is slim to none. Explaining stuff like the Rito and Zora existing at the same time becomes pretty simple under the assumption that the Rito in BotW's Hyrule aren't the same as WW's Rito, the two groups are pretty different in looks and culture, so it's entirely possible that the existence of BotW's Rito is simply an example of convergent evolution. Personally, I think them being the descendants of Fokka from AoL is the best explanation. Still, it might be the simplest explanation (imo) but there's other explanations that could work with how referential to the overall series BotW and TotK are, even if I wouldn't exactly care for the some of them (convergence). I'd like to see that video on the timeline split off of Skyward Sword from you, I've seen that theory thrown around a lot but was never really convinced. Sorry for the long af comment, I really enjoy Zelda discussion when it's not poisoned by outcries of Zelda lore not mattering/not making sense. Once again, great video. Hope to see more Zelda content from you.
I love getting in depth comments so I greatly appreciate it. I love the downfall hero timeline theory that you gave me. It makes perfect sense and fits with my explanation of how time splits work. As for the BotW/ToTK stuff I teased that I have a theory that Skyward Sword also caused a timeline split that lead into events kinda mirroring the other timeline but slightly different. It would explain the Ganondorf scene and also the founding of Hyrule being different but it kinda needs it's own video one day.
@@SuperSavajinNice vid. But, here is my take on the timeline: [{OLD PRESENT TIMELINE}]: - ({Skyward Sword [Game]}) - ({The Minish Cap}) - ({Four Swords}) - ({Four Swords Adventures}) - ({A Link to the Past}) - ({Oracle of Ages/Seasons}) - ({Link’s Awakening}) - ({A Link Between Worlds}) - ({Triforce Heroes}) [{DISTANT PAST TIMELINE}]: - ({Skyward Sword [Climax]}) - ({Breath of the Wild}) - ({Tears of the Kingdom}) [{NEW PRESENT TIMELINE}]: - ({Skyward Sword [Epilogue]}) - ({Ocarina of Time [Child]}) [{NP CHILD TIMELINE}]: - [{Majora’s Mask}] - [{Twilight Princess}] [{NP ADULT TIMELINE}]: - ({The Legend of Zelda}) - (The Adventure of Link}) - ({Ocarina of Time [Adult]}) - ({The Wind Waker}) - ({Phantom Hourglass}) - ({Spirit Tracks})
The Downfall Timeline was a creation of the _Golden Goddesses_ who *wanted* a third timeline to exist in order to represent each of the 3 goddesses and their respective Triforce piece (Adult for Nayru/Wisdom, Child for Farore/Courage and Downfall for Din/Power). It's why Ganon ended up victorious against Link due to his possession of the Triforce of _Power_ leading to the 3 goddesses to allow him to be the victor in this timeline. The "Convergence" can thusly also be attributed to the Golden Goddesses who wanted the 3 timelines to merge into a singular one as part of a "divine plan" just like the original timesplit. As to the timeline placement of Rauru's Hyrule it's pretty clear that it's located _after_ the end of the timelines following the Convergence as a *new* kingdom entirely which happens to share the same name in honor of the previous incarnations of the kingdom as seen throughout each individual timeline. Rauru's Hyrule is a _refoundation_ following the unification of the timelines hence why it lacks any direct reference to past events such as the existence of the Triforce and Sacred Realm.
@@SuperSavajin That whole "timesplit theory" surrounding the end of Skyward Sword has been _debunked_ both by it's lack of aknowledgement by Nintendo all across supplementary material such as the Hyrule Historia, Zelda Encyclopedia and Creating a Champion books plus the very explanation given in the game itself regarding the time _loop_ which takes place during the course of the game. As proven by Impa already having Zelda's arm band when Link first meets her within the Sealed Temple the events at the end of Skyward Sword had ALREADY happened in a previous loop courtesy of Link, Zelda, Groose and Ghirahim having already travelled to the past in said loop allowing Zelda to handle her arm band to the old Impa. The time loop seen in Skyward Sword is the exact same as the one in Tears of the Kingdom with the presents affecting the past courtesy of a character travelling in time and doing something which will eventually affect the present: Zelda travels to the past > Zelda handles her armband to Impa > Zelda travels to the past > rinse and repeat
2:28 It wasnt "dont worry about it" It is "it went underground as it already did 10000 years ago " to wich we could know it dissapear after the upheavel.
Hot take: Hyrule Warriors was the reason the timelines were fused. That's literally what happened in the game and even though they said it wasn't canon, they said the same thing about the timeline itself until it was canon. It honestly solves all the problems. Also, the Zonai founded Hyrule after the timeline merge, not way back when SS happened.
Aonuma explicitly justified why HW (the first one) isn't part of the main canon, in short it would mess up all the references to the official timeline. I think people who reject BOTW/TOTK's continuity with established lore resort to a lot of speculation from the little info we got, besides not having a strict consistent lore in the first place.
@@mkjjoe BotW and TotK was supervised by Aonuma, but younger devs had a lot of say. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they decided to make it canon and therefore could start with a "new" Hyrule that can reference all previous games but not need to retcon too much. That's why TotK played so fast and loose and didn't stick to the old formula. They could change it all up
@@octavius.augustus idk, the old formula was loose already and we rarely had sequels to judge for its continuity, in fact I think it never happened with this level of production quality / quantity and attention from players. In old games it was more easily implied that we had to fill blanks, within each game and regarding how they connect. Hyrule Warriors Age of Calamity is another indicator of how loose the writing is despite increased scrutiny from fans (even if still developed by Koei Tecmo, this one was more strictly guided by the Zelda team to make it a "canon branch"). AOC got people fighting about canonicity for dumb inconsistencies that would be a breaking point in some franchises, to me it just sounded like another day in Hyrulean storytelling...
@@octavius.augustus ultimately anything can be, I guess it comes down to what the creators said. Last time I checked HW1 explicitly wasn't canon and Aonuma explained why, the rest is. Headcanon is fine too as long as we don't behave as if the devs _had to_ go for that vision in future games.
7:30 no it isnt. Neither the hero of hyrule or the hero of legend were pressumed death before giving them a sequel game. Ocarina of time its already a game that doesnt fit into a time "line" but timelines. Multiple of them , 1 when all the events of 2d games take place and the other one when ocarina and majora happen as they are shown ingame.
It's all part of a preordained "cosmic plan" set by the 3 Golden Goddesses so it makes perfect sense that 3 timelines (representative of the *3* Golden Goddesses) would kickoff from the event of Ocarina of Time which depict the first ever incarnation of the Demon Tribe's curse fighting against the successors of the Hero and the goddess Hylia. 3 Golden Goddesses > 3 Triforce pieces > 3 main characters > 3 timelines
While I do agree they probably had this in mind to some degree, there's also a lot of evidence they weren't solidifying anything and not sticking with it 100% and only did so because of Hyrule Historia. For one, there are a lot of inconsistencies. Both between games when you follow the official timeline and in things they have said in the past about the timeline. And most of this centers around Ocarina of Time's placement relative to A Link to the Past. For one, they initially said in interviews that Ocarina of Time was the Imprisoning War mentioned in A Link to the Past's backstory. If that was the Imprisoning War, then that means that what we saw were the events of Ganondorf being sealed, which should put A Link to the Past in what we now call the adult timeline. He got the Triforce, there was a battle, he was sealed. Couldn't be in the Child Timeline, since in that one Ganondorf never got the Triforce, Link stopped his plans before that occurred. And it made sense when they said it, as many already theorized there was such a timeline split. But that poses a problem of where things fit. Hyrule Historia fixes that problem, saying instead that Ocarina of Time shows the events leading up to the Imprisoning War, with that only happening in the Downfall timeline after Link is defeated. But not only does that show that they definitely changed things a bit... It still isn't consistent with what we are told in A Link to the Past. In A Link to the Past, we are told that a group of thieves found the Triforce by accident, and after the group members fought each other over it, their leader Ganondorf Dragmire took it, becoming Mandraganon. His evil spread throughout the Kingdom, and under the advisement of seven wise men, the King ordered the creation of the Master Sword, a blade that could defeat Ganondorf but which could only be wielded by one pure of heart, then his knights and the wise men sacrificed themselves to seal Ganon in the Holy Land (which is called the Sacred Realm in future games). Thanks to this seal, Ganon's evil corrupted the Holy Land into the Dark Land, and his evil eventually began to leak out into the Kingdom once more, which is where the events with Agahnim start. But that backstory doesn't fit Ocarina of Time's story very much at all, whether Ocarina of Time shows the Imprisoning War or if the Imprisoning War occurred after Link failed. Ganondorf didn't find the Triforce by accident, he didn't kill his own people to take it after finding it, the King didn't have the Master Sword created to stop him. In fact, it's even a stretch to say that the King of Hyrule could have, after Link failed, had his Knights drive back Ganon so the Wise Men (or Sages) could seal him, considering there is no King of Hyrule in the Adult Timeline, nor any Knights of Hyrule, and it was Zelda's plan. That massive inconsistency further shows that this timeline was an afterthought and not fully planned and set in stone from the start. Beyond that, though, it's also why the timeline was never that obvious. And the Imprisoning War part is part of what throws people off with the TotK timeline placement, using the exact same name for a different, if vaguely similar, event. And these inconsistencies remain for the other games. The one that annoys me the most is the Hero's Shade. People always say it's the Hero of Time, but ignoring Hyrule Historia (which has a ton more, worse inconsistencies), there really isn't any evidence supporting this theory. But using evidence from Hyrule Historia to continue with these inconsistencies, how can the Hero of Time regret never being remembered as a Hero when Majora's Mask begins saying he was celebrated as a hero, with it starting when he "crept away from the land that made him a legend"? If Twilight Princess's failed Ganondorf execution took place after Link warned of Ganondorf's treachery and prevented everything from happening, then who are the Sages that were there? What happened to the Gerudo? Why is the Gerudo Desert suddenly unreachable by normal means? Why does it appear that Death Mountain, Zora's Domain, and Kakariko Village have all moved quite a bit? Some of these inconsistencies can be ignored by saying "oh, time has passed", but only a couple of centuries at most, and in Ocarina of Time, Death Mountain was due East, with another mountain slightly North East, Zora's Domain was much further East and slightly South, Gerudo Desert was due West, and Lake Hylia was South West, relative to Castle Town, while in Twilight Princess, Zora's Domain is North East, Death Mountain is much further East and slightly South, Lake Hylia remains South West, but Gerudo Desert goes much further South, though still to the West. Those aren't changes that happen in a couple of centuries, and Kakariko Village does not help the problem. Once again, all of this suggests that they didn't have the timeline placement fully decided or thought out, and also made it very hard to determine where things went, especially with the aforementioned Imprisoning War confusion. Yes, some things were obvious, but not completely. A Link to the Past had to take place before The Legend of Zelda and Zelda 2: Adventure of Link, and some games were obviously direct sequels and stated as much in their games. But even if we can now find evidence supporting the timeline, it was never obvious and has never been consistent. It's like they had a general idea of "this game needs to take place some time before these ones, this has to go sometime between these ones", but didn't have the full timeline thought out and finalized until they were asked for one for Hyrule Historia's creation as part of the 25th anniversary, then decided to take the vague ideas they had and piece together a more detailed answer from there, leaving a lot of conflicting information. And it would make sense for that to be the case, because having such a rigid timeline in mind can heavily limit what they can do in the future while remaining consistent. Without going far into the future as they did with BotW, they would need to have a game that was more internally consistent with everything else relative to its timeline placement. There were small gaps of time between games that would require very careful planning to fit a new game in without rewriting the timeline entirely. Can't really put something between Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess, only a couple centuries passed and Ganondorf can't be the main antagonist. Can't put anything between Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker, they already said there was no hero to stop Ganondorf when he returned, so they couldn't even say "well it's a different hero, not the Hero of Time". Anything between Skyward Sword and Ocarina of Time would need a new antagonist, as Ganondorf doesn't exist yet, Demise is gone, and they showed the origins of Vaati already, as well as having him sealed twice. The only real options were to put things after the latest games in whatever timeline, but bringing back Ganondorf too soon would make his various deaths feel more empty, so they would need a new antagonist, and they'd have to keep track of games for 3 different timelines, they had to be careful to not have much crossover between them. And the result was A Link Between Worlds, which is a bit too similar to A Link to the Past in terms of story. The easiest option is to just go far ahead in the future and start fresh. They can continue the timeline without issues, they can try to be more internally consistent with a timeline if they want, or leave this part of the timeline fluid again to adapt as needed for the time being. Less restrictions, and lots of options for references. It also perfect fits the idea of a new future for the series, fitting with the new gameplay style. Also, the "timeline split after Skyward Sword" theory doesn't really explain everything for the new games either and feels like a massive cop-out...
You can look at what is said in Alttp as distorted history, Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule is a king from the Adult timeline so your wrong about that, there is evidence about who the Hero´s shade is like the songs he knows and his fighting stance, the Hero of time isn´t remembered by the common people only by the royal who keep it secret, the Gerudo is mostly likely exiled or hunted out of Hyrule until Four swords adventure, the map of TP is not in the same orientation as Ocarina of time so that might throw you off and the timeline split after Skyward sword theory don´t work because Aonuma has confirmed that Botw is after Ocarina of time on the timeline.
@@AhouroTP only messes with Zora's Domain. The Gamecube version is the canon version of the game, which matches up with OoT. The Wii flips it. But the majority of the map is the same basic concept, a slightly different orientation like you said, which really shouldn't be a "can't be the same" argument.
@@amandaslough125 The Temple of time is the same building in Oot and TP but don´t match up unless you change the orientation of the map so Oot and TP maps don´t match up.
The Ocarina problem comes from a change in producers. It started out as telling the Imprisoning War, but the new producer put in enough of his details that it was changed enough from aLttP. Twilight Princess takes a more indirect way saying it's a sequel, but it has clear ways within it that showcase it follows Ocarina and the Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time. The Gorons hold the Hero's bow. The Forest Temple is a large hollow dead tree, being the original Great Deku Tree who was killed by Gohma in either timeline. Impaz is the last of the Sheikah, she's the last of her tribe found in the Hidden Village, which when translated The sign says "Old Kakariko", meaning the village moved after Impa opened it up. The Light Spirit Lanayru shares a shorthand story of the origins of the Triforce before diverging into the Twili backstory. The same story in Ocarina, but as simple cutscenes while the text focuses on the current issues. The wolf songs are both from Ocarina and Majora. Even if the Hero of Time was celebrated with saving Hyrule, in the child timeline, he most likely was only recognized by the Royal Family, the common public wouldn't believe the story of the King believing some orphaned kid from the Woods is a time traveler that wants to stop a coup. If we suppose he was acknowledged by Hyrule, we have no idea how many cycles it took him to canonically save Termina. I'd imagine he wouldn't have saved everyone in each possible loop, he had to trial and error. Seeing the people you brought together yesterday treat you as a stranger the next, exponentially, probably isn't good on the mental state. And that's after living through it once as an adult and seeing your own home destroyed. How do you pass on your exp and wisdom in any true sense from that? Even if you hypothetically settle home with the daughter of the local ranch. Who knows if Ganondorf didn't escape for a decade or two before being offically arrested and executed, with them going to war during that time. Link couldn't have prepared for that future the same way as the one he grew up in. We don't get to see it, which is a shame, but they don't fully contradict in the way you're implying. We just are focusing on the next story, in a way that playing the previous one isn't required, so that transition is glossed over. (You could argue that same logic should apply to BotW criticisms with the timeline, but BotW in its own game takes place over 10k years, which is twice as long as real world written history. It and its sequel don't fully make sense within themselves, let alone the courtesy of with the rest of the IP's history). The Skyward Sword spilt works nicely because Hyrule would develop in parallel to the others with some "truths" happening across the timelines, thus Breath referencing a lot of the rest of the series. But the Switch games coming after SS would also make sense why Hylia is so prominent of a religious figure, despite not existing ihe rest of the series. Those 3 games also share another new director, which increases the chances of them working better together.
@@amandaslough125 Did you mean directors for Oot because Miyamoto was the producer for every game from The legend of Zelda to Majora´s Mask and Skyward sword split don´t work because one timeline wouldn't have royal family descendant from Hylia´s reincarnation which is Skyward sword Zelda.
Nah! The Timeline doesn't matter at alll. We don't need a timeline to play a Zelda game. Only losers with nothing better things to do will waste time in a no existence timeline. Nintendo doesn't care for a timeline. If they really care for a timeline. They will make sure it stay consiste with its continuity. The Zelda Community are just a much of toxic, and stubborn inviduals that cannot accept that their Headcanon are not canon.
![I Solved the Map of EVERY Zelda Game! [Legend of Zelda Theory]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zz3FbQJXIvk/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TAS] Arcade Trio the Punch: Never Forget Me... by illayaya in 16:27.72](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/urja-Eeq5-w/mqdefault.jpg)
Miyamoto actually gave a timeline order in an interview with Dengeki Nintendo 64 in 1999.
That is a outdate information so it is irrelevante. Also he love to joke around, so no everything he says should take at face value.
Great video, you covered pretty much every angle one can with this topic. Your explanations were clear and succinct, and the editing made it a really fun watch.
It was always pretty insane to me how much shit the Zelda timeline got considering it's a series that's built up almost exclusively out of sequels and prequels, I think a lot of people may just not pay attention to story so when they learn there's an actual continuity they get put off by it. But beyond that I really couldn't even begin to guess why it's the target of so much hate, I feel like there are franchises out with with 10x more complicated lore than don't get even remotely the same level of ire.
Couple things:
My favorite explanation for the Downfall Timeline's existence is the "Triforce Wish" theory, no clue where it came from or who came up with it, but basically it's a theory that states that the Downfall Timeline is kinda the original timeline - all of the events play out like we know them, Link gets defeated, Ganondorf gets all the Triforce pieces and turns into Ganon, he's sealed in the Sacred Realm, eventually the Imprisoning War happens somewhere down the line, the events of ALttP happen.
But the idea is that when ALttP Link wishes on the Triforce at the end of the game, whatever he wished for, whether that be something like "Undo Ganon's evil", "Bring back everything Ganon destroyed", etc, that wish rippled back in time and prevented the Hero of Time from being defeated, causing the three-way split.
And when it comes to BotW and TotK's placement, I think the simplest placement for them is a refounding eons after Adventure of Link. I feel like it works the best thematically and with the information presented in the games. Downfall Timeline Hyrule is absolutely the best candidate for a Hyrule that falls and is rebirthed later down the line, with how bad of a state it was in by AoL, and constant attacks on the kingdom from Ganon is the entire timeline's theme, and that was one hint given by Aonuma as to BotW's placement back in the day.
The most *direct* references to prior Zelda games pretty much all reference the Adult era of Ocarina of Time, the events of which only happen in the Adult timeline and Downfall timeline. And with the Adult timeline's Hyrule being underwater, I feel like the chances of it resurfacing with all of its old landmarks event somewhat intact like they are in BotW is slim to none.
Explaining stuff like the Rito and Zora existing at the same time becomes pretty simple under the assumption that the Rito in BotW's Hyrule aren't the same as WW's Rito, the two groups are pretty different in looks and culture, so it's entirely possible that the existence of BotW's Rito is simply an example of convergent evolution. Personally, I think them being the descendants of Fokka from AoL is the best explanation.
Still, it might be the simplest explanation (imo) but there's other explanations that could work with how referential to the overall series BotW and TotK are, even if I wouldn't exactly care for the some of them (convergence). I'd like to see that video on the timeline split off of Skyward Sword from you, I've seen that theory thrown around a lot but was never really convinced.
Sorry for the long af comment, I really enjoy Zelda discussion when it's not poisoned by outcries of Zelda lore not mattering/not making sense. Once again, great video. Hope to see more Zelda content from you.
I love getting in depth comments so I greatly appreciate it. I love the downfall hero timeline theory that you gave me. It makes perfect sense and fits with my explanation of how time splits work. As for the BotW/ToTK stuff I teased that I have a theory that Skyward Sword also caused a timeline split that lead into events kinda mirroring the other timeline but slightly different. It would explain the Ganondorf scene and also the founding of Hyrule being different but it kinda needs it's own video one day.
@@SuperSavajinNice vid. But, here is my take on the timeline:
[{OLD PRESENT TIMELINE}]:
- ({Skyward Sword [Game]})
- ({The Minish Cap})
- ({Four Swords})
- ({Four Swords Adventures})
- ({A Link to the Past})
- ({Oracle of Ages/Seasons})
- ({Link’s Awakening})
- ({A Link Between Worlds})
- ({Triforce Heroes})
[{DISTANT PAST TIMELINE}]:
- ({Skyward Sword [Climax]})
- ({Breath of the Wild})
- ({Tears of the Kingdom})
[{NEW PRESENT TIMELINE}]:
- ({Skyward Sword [Epilogue]})
- ({Ocarina of Time [Child]})
[{NP CHILD TIMELINE}]:
- [{Majora’s Mask}]
- [{Twilight Princess}]
[{NP ADULT TIMELINE}]:
- ({The Legend of Zelda})
- (The Adventure of Link})
- ({Ocarina of Time [Adult]})
- ({The Wind Waker})
- ({Phantom Hourglass})
- ({Spirit Tracks})
The Downfall Timeline was a creation of the _Golden Goddesses_ who *wanted* a third timeline to exist in order to represent each of the 3 goddesses and their respective Triforce piece (Adult for Nayru/Wisdom, Child for Farore/Courage and Downfall for Din/Power). It's why Ganon ended up victorious against Link due to his possession of the Triforce of _Power_ leading to the 3 goddesses to allow him to be the victor in this timeline. The "Convergence" can thusly also be attributed to the Golden Goddesses who wanted the 3 timelines to merge into a singular one as part of a "divine plan" just like the original timesplit.
As to the timeline placement of Rauru's Hyrule it's pretty clear that it's located _after_ the end of the timelines following the Convergence as a *new* kingdom entirely which happens to share the same name in honor of the previous incarnations of the kingdom as seen throughout each individual timeline. Rauru's Hyrule is a _refoundation_ following the unification of the timelines hence why it lacks any direct reference to past events such as the existence of the Triforce and Sacred Realm.
@@SuperSavajin That whole "timesplit theory" surrounding the end of Skyward Sword has been _debunked_ both by it's lack of aknowledgement by Nintendo all across supplementary material such as the Hyrule Historia, Zelda Encyclopedia and Creating a Champion books plus the very explanation given in the game itself regarding the time _loop_ which takes place during the course of the game. As proven by Impa already having Zelda's arm band when Link first meets her within the Sealed Temple the events at the end of Skyward Sword had ALREADY happened in a previous loop courtesy of Link, Zelda, Groose and Ghirahim having already travelled to the past in said loop allowing Zelda to handle her arm band to the old Impa. The time loop seen in Skyward Sword is the exact same as the one in Tears of the Kingdom with the presents affecting the past courtesy of a character travelling in time and doing something which will eventually affect the present:
Zelda travels to the past > Zelda handles her armband to Impa > Zelda travels to the past > rinse and repeat
2:28
It wasnt "dont worry about it"
It is "it went underground as it already did 10000 years ago " to wich we could know it dissapear after the upheavel.
hot take: THE TIMELINE DOES MATTER!!😭😤
Im surprised this video doesn’t have more views, great job!
I'm a pretty new channel that took a long break. The algorithm doesn't like me anymore haha
But thanks for being here.
Hot take: Hyrule Warriors was the reason the timelines were fused. That's literally what happened in the game and even though they said it wasn't canon, they said the same thing about the timeline itself until it was canon. It honestly solves all the problems.
Also, the Zonai founded Hyrule after the timeline merge, not way back when SS happened.
Aonuma explicitly justified why HW (the first one) isn't part of the main canon, in short it would mess up all the references to the official timeline. I think people who reject BOTW/TOTK's continuity with established lore resort to a lot of speculation from the little info we got, besides not having a strict consistent lore in the first place.
@@mkjjoe BotW and TotK was supervised by Aonuma, but younger devs had a lot of say. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they decided to make it canon and therefore could start with a "new" Hyrule that can reference all previous games but not need to retcon too much. That's why TotK played so fast and loose and didn't stick to the old formula. They could change it all up
@@octavius.augustus idk, the old formula was loose already and we rarely had sequels to judge for its continuity, in fact I think it never happened with this level of production quality / quantity and attention from players. In old games it was more easily implied that we had to fill blanks, within each game and regarding how they connect. Hyrule Warriors Age of Calamity is another indicator of how loose the writing is despite increased scrutiny from fans (even if still developed by Koei Tecmo, this one was more strictly guided by the Zelda team to make it a "canon branch"). AOC got people fighting about canonicity for dumb inconsistencies that would be a breaking point in some franchises, to me it just sounded like another day in Hyrulean storytelling...
@@mkjjoe I still haven't seen a good reason why HW can't be canon. It literally fixes everything but no one wants to admit it.
@@octavius.augustus ultimately anything can be, I guess it comes down to what the creators said. Last time I checked HW1 explicitly wasn't canon and Aonuma explained why, the rest is. Headcanon is fine too as long as we don't behave as if the devs _had to_ go for that vision in future games.
he has returned
If theres anybody I trust to defend continuity in games, its you.
7:30 no it isnt.
Neither the hero of hyrule or the hero of legend were pressumed death before giving them a sequel game.
Ocarina of time its already a game that doesnt fit into a time "line" but timelines.
Multiple of them , 1 when all the events of 2d games take place and the other one when ocarina and majora happen as they are shown ingame.
It's all part of a preordained "cosmic plan" set by the 3 Golden Goddesses so it makes perfect sense that 3 timelines (representative of the *3* Golden Goddesses) would kickoff from the event of Ocarina of Time which depict the first ever incarnation of the Demon Tribe's curse fighting against the successors of the Hero and the goddess Hylia.
3 Golden Goddesses > 3 Triforce pieces > 3 main characters > 3 timelines
While I do agree they probably had this in mind to some degree, there's also a lot of evidence they weren't solidifying anything and not sticking with it 100% and only did so because of Hyrule Historia.
For one, there are a lot of inconsistencies. Both between games when you follow the official timeline and in things they have said in the past about the timeline. And most of this centers around Ocarina of Time's placement relative to A Link to the Past.
For one, they initially said in interviews that Ocarina of Time was the Imprisoning War mentioned in A Link to the Past's backstory. If that was the Imprisoning War, then that means that what we saw were the events of Ganondorf being sealed, which should put A Link to the Past in what we now call the adult timeline. He got the Triforce, there was a battle, he was sealed. Couldn't be in the Child Timeline, since in that one Ganondorf never got the Triforce, Link stopped his plans before that occurred. And it made sense when they said it, as many already theorized there was such a timeline split. But that poses a problem of where things fit.
Hyrule Historia fixes that problem, saying instead that Ocarina of Time shows the events leading up to the Imprisoning War, with that only happening in the Downfall timeline after Link is defeated. But not only does that show that they definitely changed things a bit... It still isn't consistent with what we are told in A Link to the Past. In A Link to the Past, we are told that a group of thieves found the Triforce by accident, and after the group members fought each other over it, their leader Ganondorf Dragmire took it, becoming Mandraganon. His evil spread throughout the Kingdom, and under the advisement of seven wise men, the King ordered the creation of the Master Sword, a blade that could defeat Ganondorf but which could only be wielded by one pure of heart, then his knights and the wise men sacrificed themselves to seal Ganon in the Holy Land (which is called the Sacred Realm in future games). Thanks to this seal, Ganon's evil corrupted the Holy Land into the Dark Land, and his evil eventually began to leak out into the Kingdom once more, which is where the events with Agahnim start. But that backstory doesn't fit Ocarina of Time's story very much at all, whether Ocarina of Time shows the Imprisoning War or if the Imprisoning War occurred after Link failed. Ganondorf didn't find the Triforce by accident, he didn't kill his own people to take it after finding it, the King didn't have the Master Sword created to stop him. In fact, it's even a stretch to say that the King of Hyrule could have, after Link failed, had his Knights drive back Ganon so the Wise Men (or Sages) could seal him, considering there is no King of Hyrule in the Adult Timeline, nor any Knights of Hyrule, and it was Zelda's plan. That massive inconsistency further shows that this timeline was an afterthought and not fully planned and set in stone from the start. Beyond that, though, it's also why the timeline was never that obvious. And the Imprisoning War part is part of what throws people off with the TotK timeline placement, using the exact same name for a different, if vaguely similar, event.
And these inconsistencies remain for the other games. The one that annoys me the most is the Hero's Shade. People always say it's the Hero of Time, but ignoring Hyrule Historia (which has a ton more, worse inconsistencies), there really isn't any evidence supporting this theory. But using evidence from Hyrule Historia to continue with these inconsistencies, how can the Hero of Time regret never being remembered as a Hero when Majora's Mask begins saying he was celebrated as a hero, with it starting when he "crept away from the land that made him a legend"? If Twilight Princess's failed Ganondorf execution took place after Link warned of Ganondorf's treachery and prevented everything from happening, then who are the Sages that were there? What happened to the Gerudo? Why is the Gerudo Desert suddenly unreachable by normal means? Why does it appear that Death Mountain, Zora's Domain, and Kakariko Village have all moved quite a bit? Some of these inconsistencies can be ignored by saying "oh, time has passed", but only a couple of centuries at most, and in Ocarina of Time, Death Mountain was due East, with another mountain slightly North East, Zora's Domain was much further East and slightly South, Gerudo Desert was due West, and Lake Hylia was South West, relative to Castle Town, while in Twilight Princess, Zora's Domain is North East, Death Mountain is much further East and slightly South, Lake Hylia remains South West, but Gerudo Desert goes much further South, though still to the West. Those aren't changes that happen in a couple of centuries, and Kakariko Village does not help the problem. Once again, all of this suggests that they didn't have the timeline placement fully decided or thought out, and also made it very hard to determine where things went, especially with the aforementioned Imprisoning War confusion.
Yes, some things were obvious, but not completely. A Link to the Past had to take place before The Legend of Zelda and Zelda 2: Adventure of Link, and some games were obviously direct sequels and stated as much in their games. But even if we can now find evidence supporting the timeline, it was never obvious and has never been consistent. It's like they had a general idea of "this game needs to take place some time before these ones, this has to go sometime between these ones", but didn't have the full timeline thought out and finalized until they were asked for one for Hyrule Historia's creation as part of the 25th anniversary, then decided to take the vague ideas they had and piece together a more detailed answer from there, leaving a lot of conflicting information. And it would make sense for that to be the case, because having such a rigid timeline in mind can heavily limit what they can do in the future while remaining consistent. Without going far into the future as they did with BotW, they would need to have a game that was more internally consistent with everything else relative to its timeline placement. There were small gaps of time between games that would require very careful planning to fit a new game in without rewriting the timeline entirely. Can't really put something between Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess, only a couple centuries passed and Ganondorf can't be the main antagonist. Can't put anything between Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker, they already said there was no hero to stop Ganondorf when he returned, so they couldn't even say "well it's a different hero, not the Hero of Time". Anything between Skyward Sword and Ocarina of Time would need a new antagonist, as Ganondorf doesn't exist yet, Demise is gone, and they showed the origins of Vaati already, as well as having him sealed twice. The only real options were to put things after the latest games in whatever timeline, but bringing back Ganondorf too soon would make his various deaths feel more empty, so they would need a new antagonist, and they'd have to keep track of games for 3 different timelines, they had to be careful to not have much crossover between them. And the result was A Link Between Worlds, which is a bit too similar to A Link to the Past in terms of story. The easiest option is to just go far ahead in the future and start fresh. They can continue the timeline without issues, they can try to be more internally consistent with a timeline if they want, or leave this part of the timeline fluid again to adapt as needed for the time being. Less restrictions, and lots of options for references. It also perfect fits the idea of a new future for the series, fitting with the new gameplay style.
Also, the "timeline split after Skyward Sword" theory doesn't really explain everything for the new games either and feels like a massive cop-out...
You can look at what is said in Alttp as distorted history, Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule is a king from the Adult timeline so your wrong about that, there is evidence about who the Hero´s shade is like the songs he knows and his fighting stance, the Hero of time isn´t remembered by the common people only by the royal who keep it secret, the Gerudo is mostly likely exiled or hunted out of Hyrule until Four swords adventure, the map of TP is not in the same orientation as Ocarina of time so that might throw you off and the timeline split after Skyward sword theory don´t work because Aonuma has confirmed that Botw is after Ocarina of time on the timeline.
@@AhouroTP only messes with Zora's Domain. The Gamecube version is the canon version of the game, which matches up with OoT. The Wii flips it. But the majority of the map is the same basic concept, a slightly different orientation like you said, which really shouldn't be a "can't be the same" argument.
@@amandaslough125 The Temple of time is the same building in Oot and TP but don´t match up unless you change the orientation of the map so Oot and TP maps don´t match up.
The Ocarina problem comes from a change in producers. It started out as telling the Imprisoning War, but the new producer put in enough of his details that it was changed enough from aLttP.
Twilight Princess takes a more indirect way saying it's a sequel, but it has clear ways within it that showcase it follows Ocarina and the Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time. The Gorons hold the Hero's bow. The Forest Temple is a large hollow dead tree, being the original Great Deku Tree who was killed by Gohma in either timeline. Impaz is the last of the Sheikah, she's the last of her tribe found in the Hidden Village, which when translated
The sign says "Old Kakariko", meaning the village moved after Impa opened it up. The Light Spirit Lanayru shares a shorthand story of the origins of the Triforce before diverging into the Twili backstory. The same story in Ocarina, but as simple cutscenes while the text focuses on the current issues. The wolf songs are both from Ocarina and Majora.
Even if the Hero of Time was celebrated with saving Hyrule, in the child timeline, he most likely was only recognized by the Royal Family, the common public wouldn't believe the story of the King believing some orphaned kid from the Woods is a time traveler that wants to stop a coup. If we suppose he was acknowledged by Hyrule, we have no idea how many cycles it took him to canonically save Termina. I'd imagine he wouldn't have saved everyone in each possible loop, he had to trial and error. Seeing the people you brought together yesterday treat you as a stranger the next, exponentially, probably isn't good on the mental state. And that's after living through it once as an adult and seeing your own home destroyed. How do you pass on your exp and wisdom in any true sense from that? Even if you hypothetically settle home with the daughter of the local ranch. Who knows if Ganondorf didn't escape for a decade or two before being offically arrested and executed, with them going to war during that time. Link couldn't have prepared for that future the same way as the one he grew up in. We don't get to see it, which is a shame, but they don't fully contradict in the way you're implying. We just are focusing on the next story, in a way that playing the previous one isn't required, so that transition is glossed over. (You could argue that same logic should apply to BotW criticisms with the timeline, but BotW in its own game takes place over 10k years, which is twice as long as real world written history. It and its sequel don't fully make sense within themselves, let alone the courtesy of with the rest of the IP's history).
The Skyward Sword spilt works nicely because Hyrule would develop in parallel to the others with some "truths" happening across the timelines, thus Breath referencing a lot of the rest of the series. But the Switch games coming after SS would also make sense why Hylia is so prominent of a religious figure, despite not existing ihe rest of the series. Those 3 games also share another new director, which increases the chances of them working better together.
@@amandaslough125 Did you mean directors for Oot because Miyamoto was the producer for every game from The legend of Zelda to Majora´s Mask and Skyward sword split don´t work because one timeline wouldn't have royal family descendant from Hylia´s reincarnation which is Skyward sword Zelda.
This did not age well
Nah!
The Timeline doesn't matter at alll.
We don't need a timeline to play a Zelda game. Only losers with nothing better things to do will waste time in a no existence timeline.
Nintendo doesn't care for a timeline. If they really care for a timeline. They will make sure it stay consiste with its continuity.
The Zelda Community are just a much of toxic, and stubborn inviduals that cannot accept that their Headcanon are not canon.