I'm not sure if anyone else mentioned it, but the four sword sanctuary in Four Swords adventures was located in the ice area, it wasn't under Hyrule castle. It's revealed in the 2nd to last world
What? The? Actual? How and why did I miss this? But also, if that's the case, what the *hell* was is up with the whole sealed off portal leaking darkness inside the castle? Why was that maiden-powered seal there when all you had to do was walk into a forest? Why does Adventures gotta be like that? Screw it! if that's the case, the castle in FSA can be the TP one in Greater Hyrule, and the Ice Temple is approximately in the aLttP castle location in Lesser Hyrule. The proportions suck nether regions, I can do whatever I want! I quit.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber19:49 this is probably not important but some entries in the hyrule compendium in BOTW state that the object or enemy can be found in "Greater Hyrule" 👀
@@brosephlacasquevtuberI think it was mentioned somewhere that there was another hero of the 4 sword who like the hero of men was not in a game, maybe he is the reason for the sword moving and being sealed by maidens
@@brosephlacasquevtuber even worse i'm pretty sure the hyrule in minish cap is in the location of ocarina of time's hyrule and not alttp hyrule as the way to solve it's weird geographical oddity's with the mountains on either side of the castle can be solved by flipping the map upside down. Doing this will cause the mountains on the sides to line up with with the mountains southwest of the great plateau leaving everything else fitting nicely in the area of botw hyrule field. This does cause a discrepancy with the location of the four sword but there's a simple explanation being that it was moved at some point after minish cap ended and there is evidence to support this as the door to the picori world is no longer in the chamber where the four sword is sealed. I'm pretty sure the gate to the picori world is something that can't be very easily moved if at all so the only logical conclusion is that the sword was moved.
One thing I wanted to point out, the lost woods jumping around is completely realistic, as real forests do in fact move around alot as old trees die and new ones grow, especially when humans get involved, forests can change faster than mountains and lakes do, this would also explain the remains of massive trees that you can find laying around, as there can be more than one deku tree planted at a time as established in wind water, but they probably don't all grow into great deku trees.
I'm fairly certain the koroks and kokiri and all other "children of the forest" are beholden to some forest protector, hence they swarm around that protector wherever it arises. If the only available forest guardian spawns forth across the land, sea, and continents, I guess the people of the forest just make do, adapt as they can, and move to that location, taking their magical properties with them.
Also its called "lost woods" not the "its right over there woods" i can believe its not trustworthy plus even in ocarina it linked completly unrelqted areas
My favorite thing is that all of the mountains and barriers of Hyrule from Ocarina diminished, places like Gerudo Desert and Zora's domain and Lake Hylia completely shifted to new areas, Hyrule Castle underwent several makeovers... yet the little toolshed and fence from Lon Lon Ranch stuck around through all this immense geologic change.
The entire economy of Hyrule depends on that ranch. There's a reason why Ganondorf kept it standing when he took over, just changing who was in charge.
I just now, as I was watching the video came up with an idea for why the Lost Woods might move, and it honestly seems more plausible to me than a great deal of other explanations given. The Lost Woods almost always have a Great Deku Tree, but it's not the same tree from game to game. In Ocarina, you use a seed from the Great Deku Tree in the future to plant a new one after the old one got Gohma'd. Anyone could plant a new Great Deku Tree anywhere and I feel like the Lost Woods would grow around the tree since the two are inseparably linked
@@MerkhVision You can also see the remains of multiple great trees in the BtoW map. So yea, the fact the forest moved? We can see the evidence of it. We know it happened. You can see the old stumps. When the great tree is falls, the forest decays into a "normal" forest, no longer having it's power making it the Lost Woods or Sacred Grove (which, we know OVERLAP from talking to the Great Tree in BtoW/TotK. The Great Deku Tree, even if we don't actually visit it in the game, acts as a nexus of sacred power to help keep the Master Sword charged. And one thing I was suprised Broseph didn't talk about is the existence, or lack there of, of compass roses in some of the games. Or the fact, that even in the real world, compass north can move. Maybe Hyrule's world has a very unstable core, that wildly swings about, shifting compass north quite a bit. I mean, considering the sheer amount of magical fuckery (Seriously, OoT's Sun Song. You just rotated the planet around 180 degrees in the span of a few seconds. How many times did you do this in an average playthrough because you were impatient and wanted a different time of day for something?). And Hyrule is just one kingdom in a world where shenanigans like this are happening frequently.
The Skyward Sword part makes sense, but the only problem is that the Forgotten Temple in BotW is very clearly based on the Sealed Temple in Skyward Sword. It's got the giant goddess statue and Groose's Tree in there too.
that might be a replica or just a reference, we already had the confirmation that the sealed temple was rebuilt into the temple of time, both BOTW and TOTK don't make any sense, in one game we have a lot of hylia statues on the overworld, meanwhile in the rest of the games we don't see any, there must have been an architectonic project made by the royal family and the sheikah to rebuilt those landmarks, in the TOTK past they don't even know about the master sword or the triforce, they just call it "light / time powers" so TOTK "past" and "creation of hyrule" must have been just a reconstruction of the kingdom after it was destroyed, otherwise they should have known about demise, the master sword and the sealed temple
@@troloinktoseems to me like totk's past scenes are still just the far future to the other games, aslong as the skyword sword architecture style ruins still exist in the past (we dont see them afaik) it would make sense and yeah they forgot but thats not a lore breaker or anything
Im pretty sure BOTW map and story is the end of the timeline as we know it. There is remnants of all 3 timelines in different places of the map. My theory is that some catastrophic event smashed everything back together
@@tylermorales4958 there's another theory out there, basically the one game that's not canon, Hyrule Warriors. the whole story is basically when the timelines split, that fractured the power of Ganon and his triforce, and a witch lady who was supposed to watch over the worlds, well she fell in love with the hero's soul, but couldn't have him...then she got the magic whisper Zant style and she used forbidden powers to pull fragments of all three timelines together into a single new-ish fused realm. this would both fix the overall timeline AND could easily cover all the odd bits that do or do not pop up in the last two games
So about the saltwater Lake Hylia thing: Something you may know if you've played all of the Zelda games is that there are actually two varieties of Zora: one which have mainly pale skin and which resemble sharks, and one which have colorful skin, more monstrous features, and look more like traditional fish. In the one game where both species appear at once (Oracle of Ages), it's revealed that the shark-like Zora are "saltwater Zora", and the fish-like Zora are "freshwater Zora". Guess which variety of Zora you see in Ocarina of Time? (This actually, to me, also serves as a potential theory for how Zora and Rito coexist in Breath of the Wild. The Zora you see in BotW could actually be the descendants of freshwater Zora, while the saltwater Zora evolved into the Rito)
Yeah, i noticed the Zora species split too. The OoA Zoras even have a descendant of Lord Jabu Jabu. If Breath/Tears are in the Downfall timeline, that's the Zore/Rito explanation I would go with. It might even explain the other Zora's Domain Yona hails from.
The River Zora are an mutated version of the OoT Zora, which appear to live shorter lives based on the Rito than the Ocean Zora near Labrynna. The 2 species likely interbred before BotW, as they clearly age more slowly than the OoT Zora.
@@richjordan6461 Not sure who you're talking to (is Broseph names Gary?) but it's the River Zora who were attacking you in Zelda 1, aLttP, etc. There are several River Zora who dont attack you tho, like the Zora in aLttP who sells you the Flippers.
The Zelda II revelation was honestly the most surprising thing about this to me. That's cool that the map can spread even further beyond the borders of Hyrule from the previous game. I'd love to see a Zelda game where you can travel between different Kingdoms.
Imagine a new Zelda game with the botw formula but we can go to various kingdoms AND realms, they being implied or at least inspired by previous places. Like you have the default open world of Hyrule, being able to go anywhere and having the sandbox powers, then going to Holodrun to have a story focused world that opens up very linearly, full of classic dungeons, and then Labrynia own overworld being a giant puzzle, with you only being able to use key itens from that region, so the world opens up like a Metroidvania game.
Technically speaking, we did get two games (arguably three) where Link went to different lands outside of Hyrule. Those are the Oracle games (and Link's Awakening if you count the dream world as a semi-real place, something akin to Sub-con). I know it's probably not what you meant, and you want a game where we can physically visit Hyrule AND other lands outside its borders. But it is confirmation that there are other lands/kingdoms out there. Who knows? Maybe one day it will be a reality.
BOTW and TOTK pretty much necessitate them going outside of Hyrule if they're going to continue the open world formula in the next game. They tried to spice it up in TOTK with the sky and the depths, but any new game will have to take it outside of Hyrule.
Bearing in mind two things: Hyrule exists around a massive, (very) active volcano, so we can assume there’s lots of seismic activity - not to mention lots of destroyed and re-emerging forests and towns, and mountains caving in on themselves after eruptions. The second thing is that Hyrule exists in a world with powerful magic (e.g. Ganondorf can just freeze all of Zora’s Domain or destroy an entire island out of spite). Suddenly entire forests, lakes, mountains and cities moving around doesn’t seem so unusual.
I was gonna say: Other than the placement of Kakariko village, A Link to the Past’s map is really close to BotW’s. Though fun fact: in the Japanese version of ALttP, the Light World Death Mountain was called “Mt. Hebra”, so figure that one out
Isn't the mountains north of Hyrule in a Link to the Past Hebra in all games? I think I played an english version and it appeared as that. Death Mountain is still there as the dark world version so they might have just flipped dimensions as in A Link Between Worlds which is a direct continuation Death Mountain and Hebra are in Hyrule and Lorule respectively.
One thing that has bothered me is the location of spectacle rock. In alttp it's north, on top of death mountain, in botw it's at the edge of gerudo desert
@@mikailvandartelworth taking a look at skull lake in BotW. Names change, but being a major geological landform, it's possible that the spires of skull lake are what are known as spectacle rock in earlier games.
I've said this before, if you flip the locations of kakariko and hyrule castle, the maps of aLttP and BotW match really close if you squint and take some liberties. I used it for a while as part of an argument that BotW occurred in Downfall, the only real issue is Zora River being a bit further north in aLttP and Lake Hylia being in the exact opposite side of the map, but I always just sort of, mapped it as Hyrule castle being moved to where Kakariko used to be after Adventure of Link and the other issues I just pretended didn't exist. I wasn't the most honest with myself when it came to my personal BotW timeline preference, but everything else fit so well, I still don't get why Nintendo has to be so adamant on BotW being in a merged timeline when there's no clear way for that to be the case.
There's also a theory for Breath of the Wild that somehow the Great Plateau and Lost Woods switched places somehow (which makes more sense after Tears of the Kingdom came out,) but that being said, if entire bodies of land, water and mountains can all just swap places periodically in such a radical manner, then the maps between Zelda games no longer have to line up right because the geography can just violently shift whenever it needs to.
But the idea is that a volcano, a mountain range and a desert do not shift that easily! So the fun part is pinpointing those elements and triangulating the location of elements from there. To see what has remained in the same place between games, and what has radically shifted. A lot of times these matching locations are backed by the lore, giving a cool perspective into the world of the games
There is a theory that botw and totk play so far in the future of the other games that some events literaly repeat themselves [for example in totk when ganondorf pledges allegiance to the king of hyrule, only to betray him afterwards {twinrova is present too}].
@@beatemeyer1242 I've heard that and fully subscribed to it already, it's objectively true and you can't change my mind, but I didn't notice his mom(s) though
@@cameron-yo6zp its very hard to notice them since the only hint you get is their names being written in hylian on their clothes [atleast thats what i heard]
One thing to keep in mind is that botw's map made deliberate decisions to change the map (pretty late in development at that) because they thought it would be better for gameplay. There is a longstanding theory about the great plateau and the Lost woods changing places, but we know for a fact they decided to swap the The lost woods and Kakariko. Thus, originally, the lost woods would be far more southeast, like in most games, while kakariko would have been at the base of death mountain, like in most games not in the downfall timeline.
For anyone looking for a source, here's a segment of an interview with developer Manabu Takehara: "Actually, from the early days of the game’s development to around the middle stages Kakariko Village and the Korok Forest’s locations were swapped. As development progressed and the story’s details became more precise, and as the game itself began to come together, I began to feel that the two locations were out of place. That being said, I consulted with the landscape lead about switching the two around and was met with a quick ‘certainly!’ Immediately after we went to the director." The rest of the segment just talks about how the rest of the team accepted it
@kattowo_8516 I'm so confused. I replied at least twice with a link to the Nintendo Everything article about the interview and they both never showed up...
I've always chocked up the weird scaling and slightly different placements to the second word in the title of every game. It's a legend. We're playing through stories that have probably been told via word of mouth for eons. That's why we have different art styles too.
Before Ocarina of Time, the Master Sword was used to seal the way to the Sacred Realm/ Triforce. That's why it wasn't an option in Minish Cap and Minish Cap's backstory.
My theory about Zora's domain being in the north in Twilight Princess is that they moved to another location after some prior invasion. Kakariko has a river on the south end of town, which lines up ok with OoT, and they have the zora graveyard there as well, which I think indicates the zora previously had more of a presence in southern Hyrule than they did during TP.
That was some of the most fun I’ve have with a gaming theory video in a long time! A really like the balance you struck between serious analysis and speculation, and just saying “Fuck it, we’re working with 30 years of history and Nintendo’s only cared about it for maybe 10 of those years.” You were honest about occasionally stretching the facts to come to a conclusion, and still came out of it with a fairly believable interpretation of what happened and how it works!
I'm very glad you enjoyed it. And I also want to really thank you for being so specific with your compliment. It's one thing to say "gud vid, man", but it means a lot more when someone takes the time to call out specific parts of something you're proud of! So, thanks for that!
Espeiclly since the streches are explaiend reasonable. For example the loading screens: It is much more reasonable to "cheat" here than to make some sort of "fact-based" pixel analysis. Without loading screens and similar imagination based additions, the kingdom would be too small, there would be no toiletes, not enough food, and the day/night circle wouldn't make sense if you don't assume that the thigns we see are a temporary cut of Link's quest throughout Hyrule, focusing on the action moments. This would also explain when Link is resting during his journey. Only with gmae such as BOTW which allow more details, we are also allowed to follow more details on the adventure. And here we go, who doesn't remember the large ways upwards from one action point to another with nothing happening but time passing, all skiped in OOT, TP, etc. Just the toiletes are stil missing and I won't complain over that sort of details.
@brosephlacasquevtuber I loved the video! Just two things to consider: At the end of SS, Fi says the Master Sword must be sealed to destroy Demise's evil thoughts. I think it's likely it wasn't finished with that in Minish Cap, hence the need for the Picori blade. Also, if you disregard Hyrule Historia's (ridiculous) placement of FSA behind TP and put it in its *actual* spot, after FS in a timeline parallel to OoT (same Ganondorf, not a new one) and before ALttP, then it fits *perfectly* with ALttP's map.
You’re correct on the Zelda 2 coastline but off on the scale. Extend the bottom on the map to the bottom of the BotW map and you’re closer. Zelda 1 map is from kakariko downward. You can overlay the maps more easily by the double lakes with the angled river which feeds into it (passing through the twin peaks area, which the area where boulders fall on link in zelda 1. Graveyard corresponds with river of the dead on the plateau. The similarity was something I noticed when BotW first came out since zelda 1 is my favorite of the series. 😊
its hard not to understate how well done this video is??? NEVER IMAGINED THERE WOULD BE A SINGLE HUMAN TO BE ABLE TO HAVE BEEN SUCH A ZELDA FAN AND FANATIC TO HAVE MADE a video this detailed, deep, and well made??? you have my respect.
Absolutely phenomenal video, it feels like you've done what no one else could with this one. Inaccurate cartography, real life ecological shifts and the the canonical different regions like Lesser Hyrule make combining the maps appear obvious in hindsight. You did a great job. Some extra thoughts 1. Though it doesn't satisfy the part of our brain that makes connections, the disappearance or movement of massive landmarks like bridges buildings and rivers could simply be explained by magic/technology. Mount Hebra has a massive chunk blown out from what was likely a single laser blast. And whats more elusive than a Lost Wood you can't get out of? A Lost Wood you can't even find. 2. Real life empires shifted territory and changed definition all the time. Just look at the complex history of the Roman Empire. What Minish Cap link conceptualized as Hyrules borders would be completely different from another link. 3. The New Hyrule founded in Spirit tracks might be Northern Hyrule from Adventure of Link.
I'm really glad you enjoyed the video. Also glad I manage to get you on board with my reasoning. I did consider looking at Tri Force Heroes' Hytopia and Spirit Tracks' New Hyrule to compare them to North Hyrule given how they're both stated to be North of Hyrule, but the video got long enough as it is, and I didn't want to have to deal with that lol.
Wow, the editing of this is ON POINT! All the footage matched so well! 3:58 "The next point could ruffle some feathers" starts a clip of Revali where his expressions seamlessly match the sentences in the script. 0:40 "[Mapping] feels like an impossible task" shows a clip of Zelda losing hope at the Spring of Power. 3:32 "Landmarks set in stone" is added by a clip of the unearthing of Vah Rudania. 9:26 "Circling around to the Great Plateau ... use as a springboard to the rest of the series" circles the camera around Link looking over the Great Plateau, which is a springboard into the rest of the game. It's all so detailed! I was sold before you even started your theory. Good humour, good timing and a solid theory on top. Seems like the algorithm picked you up on this one. Hope it gives you some well deserved recognition! I'll definitely check out some of your other videos, for one.
Not sure if someone else has stated this before, but the swamp region in Minish Cap is named "Tabanta" in basically all versions but English afaik. I know you said you wouldnt count names as set in stone but the geographical placement of it and Mt. Gongol is really close to the Tabantha and Hebra region in BOTW, so that's something I always keep in mind when trying to pin where MC's map is. In any case, great video. Hope you continue doing things like this.
@@TLcool4t Crenel had no reason not to be a chain, given the game takes place after Skyward Sword in regions in between its map, also that it’s volcanic and probably flipped way round given there are actual “loading zones” between east and west in tMC Edit: Mt Crenel being volcanic means there is a very good chance it’s part of a system with eldin/death mtn probably cause by north and south Hyrule’s tectonics
@@incognitoman3656 There's another mountain that's part of this hypothetical range: the Xera Cascade (Veil Falls in MC, Veiled Falls in ENG BOTW). In BOTW it is part of the mountain range of Lanayru and east of Mt. Crenel/Gongol. I think it is pretty reasonable to think that part of Lesser Hyrule is where Minish Cap is set, with Tabanta being the only region of that game that's actually farther in distance compared to the others. However it doesn't match with OOT's Castle and BOTW's Temple of Time being the place where Hyrule was born but... what if the Civil War in OOT was more of a unification war between Lesser Hyrule and OOT's Hyrule?
@@JDQuote Not only does this back up the map weirdness and my theory, it makes so much sense for OoT’s civil war. What do you think about it being tectonics (given Death mtn and the lava room in Crenel)?
@@JDQuote that makes a lot of sense, the OoT Civil War being a dynastic dispute between Old and Lesser Hyrule. It even helps cover why Ganondorf would be sneaky but also want to take Hyrule. They just recently took possession of a huge, prosperous swath of territory, the kingdom itself is weak but it's military is almost certainly quite strong, being veterans of the war. That way Lesser Hyrule plays almost no part in OoT, but it's an established country prepared to fight back against Ganon.
something i wanted to point out that i learned recently, "hebra" isnt a new region name botw came up with! in the japanese and korean versions of a link to the past and a link between worlds, death mountain is only named such in the dark world/lorule, and its called mount hebra in hyrule. it doesnt really debunk anything said in this video given that names of geographical locations change all the time, and i can imagine hylians adopting the moniker "death mountain" for the active volcanic region where ganon resided in the first zelda, what's more important is that the volcanic mountain region is generally north/northeast in nearly every game its in. just a fun fact about the origins of the name of the hebra region in botw!
I think the mountains/mountain range being in the north/northeast is because you don't want a mountain to be in front of the whole map (south), so you put it in the back. Also, since Hyrule has the ocean surrounding it in the north and the east, the tectonic plate on which is greater Hyrule would lead to the formation of mountains and rivers on tectonic plates broders, in this case mountains.
@@guizmo_unicorn I really love this idea of a tectonic plate rotating under Hyrule, especially with the volcanic activity we see in the depths under Hebra in ToTK. The "death mountain hotspot" could have started in the east and moved west in the same way the Yellowstone hotspot moved through Nevada and Idaho into Wyoming.
Here's something huge with map lore as well, that Elder Scrolls has touched on... all distances are interpretations. Towns can have hundreds of people, even though you may see 3 people. The building count, number of footsteps, all is story telling device that the canon lore does not have to match.
Oh yeah botw and totk definitely have scailing done especially for the height of stuff, like using in game units mount hebra would not actually be that big of a mountain but its safe to assume its actually much bigger then it is in game cause 1. That would be a pain to nake a acute mountain and 2. It would porvbly not be that fun anyways just more tedious
I have to admit this whole video theory was amazing. I was blown away when you showed how Twilight Princess' temple of time (and the surrounding ruins) actually ligns up with its location on the great plateau, in other words "old Hyrule". It may seem obvious but as someone who has only ever played the Wii version (which is mirrored) I never realized that.
For the lost woods moving, in The Wind Waker, The Great Deku Tree had the koroks of forest haven spread the seeds of The Great Deku Tree. That could explain the moving of the lost woods, with the power of The Great Deku Tree, creates a forest around itself. Which, with the magic The Great Deku Tree has going through the roots of the forest creates the lost woods
My headcanon is that the Lost Woods itself is lost and so it just kinda... moves around? Fits with its reality breaking mechanics imo. Idk I just think it's funny.
Considering its a magical forest, I feel like it fits that it just randomly wanders around the world. I love to think that it isn't a gradual move but that it just magically appears in new locations every so often to keep everything extra safe
The lost woods are whatever woods surround a/the Deku Tree. But a new Deku Tree sprout could hypothetically be grown in any location, so the Lost Woods can be replanted anywhere a tree can grow.
Regarding the Minish Cap and Four Swords, those were actually done by Capcom, so their canonization is debatable, as for FS Adventures, while it was done by Nintendo, it was vastly changed from what it was supposed to be. It was supposed to be about the Imprisoning War that was before ALTTP in the Downfall Timeline, the PCs where supposed to be four knights helping in it, but Miyamoto meddled (in what he is now becoming infamous for) and forced the staff to rapidly change that and we got what it is now, so it’s canon is also pretty debatable, I think they just slapped that on the official timeline just to appease Miyamoto and not upset him.
I am aware there has been some debate about the timeline placement of the Four Sword-related games. But I'm just taking Nintendo at there word on this one and counting them and where they sit on the official timeline as canon. I went on for a half hour as it is, I didn't exactly have room to challenge the "word of god" on this one.
Big disagree on this one. None of the Zelda games canonicity is "debatable". If it's The Legend of Zelda™, it's canon. What you can debate are side games like Crossbow Training, Tingle or Age of Calamity.
A lot of historical kings had multiple castles (heck, the British monarchs still do), so it's not out of the question that there might be two or even three "Hyrule castles" in use at the same time, especially if the term "Hyrule Castle" is taken not to refer to a specific castle, but whichever castle the Hyrulean royals happened to be staying in at the time (kind of like Air Force One being whatever airplane happens to have the President of the United States on board).
Ok, I hope you read this as I have some additional points that can strengthen the points made in your video: 1) Regarding Lake Hylia in OOT I think this is a scaling issue with the map rather than placement as in BOTW there are a number of lakes already present, so it is possible lake Hylia was absorbed into the ocean, however I think its more than likely a scaling issue if anything (the scientist could have used salt water taken from the ocean to fill his lab up, not to mention that Lake hylia is literally surrounded by forest in OOT, so what ever is beyond said forested area probably lines up well with BOTW) 2) regarding TP Bridge placement The bridge in TP is already decaying, and I think that at some point it was taken down, destroyed by conflict, or just completely eroded. In real life there are a plethora of forgotten roads that just decay to time so I can see the same thing happening to bridges, especially when wars are concerned as they are key targets. If anything its likely that the architecture/style of Hylian buildings is relatively consistent and they just built a new one at some point. 3) Regarding Death Mountain in OOT Although in game Death mountain at the base of kakariko, I think this is a scaling issue as well, but specifically due to hardware limitations at the time; the plateau / kingdom of Hyrule in OOT is more than likely a bit bigger than is portrayed in game. I could see Kakariko being a bit more removed from the actual castle town, and the road to death mountain being a bit longer. One thing also to consider is the fact that the volcano is active - its possible that at times volcanos blow and then become dormant, being more like a mountain, with the Gorons relocating to the active volcano since thats what their habitat is. This could also explain why the people of kakariko move and of course still name their town kakariko. 4) Regarding forest migration I think the Deku tree might have a sort of direct connection to all of the trees in its surrounded forest, allowing it to migrate, and as its root s grow also become bigger, with parts of the Deku tree controlled forest becoming separated over time forming their own forests. Not to mention forest migration is a natural phenomenon as is with wars and natural disasters, however the existence of the Deku tree reinforces any and all changes to forest areas as being something completely reasonable. Also of note - the deku tree and koroks/kokiri aren't necessarily known for being very open to outsiders so their absence in other games is consistent with their character. 5) regarding Four swords: adventures The map is more of a menu screen than a map; I don't count it as an actual 'map' as compared to all other games. not to meniton it functions like that in game. 6) Regarding Four swords map A square map vs a sphere map has placement differences when converted between the two; so, at best I think this is sort of a space issue; sort of like whoever made the map (let's assume all maps have some sort of in game source like Tingle for instance) ran out of room, or perhaps intentionally compressed the map in order to save on space / fit onto one piece of paper. 7) Regaridng Great & lesser Hyrule and the issue of the 4 swords and Master Sword: I think Minish cap establishes a few things: a) knowledge of the triforce and master sword were successfully kept a secret post SS in order to prevent anyone trying to take them (sort of similar logic as to why you don't tell people you have something worth a lot of money, you know someone is going to try and take it from you, so its best just to keep a secret as much as possible). Do keep in mind that that was Zelda's ultimate goal at the end of SS, not necessarily to build a kingdom, which obviously came later. b) the existance of lesser and greater hyrule existed relatively early on because people do migrate, populations change for a variety of reasons like war, famine, opportunity, natural disasters, etc. Keep in mind too that the internet doesn't exist in hyrule, so knowledge of the triforce is probably almost non existant in lesser hyrule except for a few royal family members (and of course since the 4 swords is more local than the triforce and master sword, its a more convenient resource to rely on for the hero). As an extra observation it must be stated that magic in the zelda universe is in no way static; it quite literally allows for a variety of hard and soft magic, meaning that discrepancies regarding items, people's ability to use them, magic/sacred locations are all easily explained by the diverse magic system present throughout the zelda universe. So its no surprise that other magic swords exist, that other magic musical instruments exist, that temples are remodeled and rebuilt and therefore have different magical properties - or - magic properties that were rediscovered later on down the line. The maps never really bothered me too much because at the end of the day it is hyrule we're dealing with, all creatures in the zelda universe exist and sometimes do or don't make an appearance due to the locations relevant to the game. Great video, I agree completely, and I hope to see more content! alright, now i have to go back to doing my homework.
Maybe the weird migrational thing can be explained by the "Old Hyrule" location being initially decided to not be settled upon due to being considered sacred, but somewhere between the FS games and OoT prople decided "hey actually let's move to where our civilisation actually started to be maybe it'll get us closer to the gods" And if you put in the Minish Cap map on a diagonal angle compared to LttP's, Mt. Crenel lines up closer to Death Mountain
10:20 Hyrule Historia: the Temple of Time was built over the Sealed Temple BotW: The Sealed Temple is at the bottom of a canyon nowhere near the Plateau TotK: There’s 2 Temples of Time, actually
on Deku tree placement: if I remember correctly, in Windwaker there was a late game side quest where you needed to plant a deku seed on some island, and then bring the water from specific water source to that place (limited time, no fast travel) and water the seed, which would cause a new Deku Tree to start growing. This allows to hypothesize that Deku Tree location is not permanent, and the Kokiri Forest is just any forest that happens to grow around it. The buildings in Kokiri Village in OoT, mind you, were just carved into and built around the trees and stumps, these won't leave a trace when the kokiri move out. Also interesting fact brought to attention in Tears of the Kingdom, the existence of Lost Woods might be a defence mechanism of Deku Tree, In BotW it was just a puzzle to navigate it correctly, but in TotK the fog is altered and it is absolutely impossible to navigate Lost Woods until a specific action is performed on the Deku tree, and then the fog goes back to normal. So Lost Woods aren't permanent either.
Can't there only be one deku tree though? We've only ever seen one at a time, in OoT a sprout grows from the dead one. In WW we help save the deku tree sprouts but does only the strongest become the next deku tree after the father dies? In TotK we see more cherry blossom trees that the deku tree is, the only other one in BotW is at Satori Mountain so are there more sprouts growing trying to compete? Many questions yet to be answered.
@@dominicmoisant8393 i never noticed that the deku tree was a cherry blossem! maybe the koroks/kokiri decide which one becomes a deku? it makes sense to me
As someone who HAS worked on and with some of the best maps in the world imo (I was a cartographer for the Ordnance Survey for nearly 5 years) there is a LOT of squishing and distortion going on with all maps, especially around roads to make them legible, and to make sure the scale is readable. It's called Generalisation.
Wow the algorithm is on point for me lately. A few points: I fully agree with stretching the maps to fit BoTW/ToTK. The four sword games take place in the ‘dark’ realm. Before ganandof corrupted the sacred realm. The fact the shrine is only accessed in the dark realm in a link to the past is a major point to ignore. There is some evidence that the great plateau was moved at some point. Might be worth looking at. The lost woods always forms around a great deku tree. Judging by the scattered Sakura trees in tears, there is always a chance for a new tree to develop but only one can be THE tree at a time. Lake hylia in OOT being salt water is an idea I hadn’t considered and actually makes a lot of sense. The idea of greater and lesser PLUS old and new is genius and I hope more people adopt it
There's something inherently sad about the Zelda World. It's a world frozen in time thousands of years pass between every game but the world very rarely progresses grows or advances, when technology like the Sheikah stuff is created its short lived and ultimately fades away again. Every time the world begins to grow Calamity arrives once more to set everything back to square one.
Yeah, whenever Hyrule falls it comes back again in a different form, and no matter how technologically advanced the civilization gets Hyrule remains a medieval-esque Kingdom My head canon is that after the Skyloftians return to the surface, with the Triforce, the first person after the end of Skyward Sword to make a wish on the Triforce (before they sealed the Triforce away in the sacred realm and everything) wished for an "eternal kingdom" - and so the Triforce created Hyrule and made it perpetual, and that guy becomes the first king of Hyrule etc No evidence of any of that in games, it's a part of the Zelda timeline that hasn't been explored in any way whatsoever. It's just my head canon to explain the seemingly cyclic nature of Hyrule
The lengthens that people go through to make sense of their favorite franchise is astounding. I’m proud to be an astounding member of this group. Game, lore, maps, and familial relationships.
Great video! Your analysis is amazing, great work! My take away from seeing all this: The Zelda developers are so confident in their IP that they don't need to be 100% consistent between games. The best game series offer variants on a theme. The developers here clearly have a theme, but don't fall into the trap of constraining themselves to it. So nice job on discovering the theme :)
My favorite part of this entire extensive in-depth video, was when you made another reference to liking swamps turning to deserts and used different footage from Link Between Worlds to make the same point look twice as strong. You not only had me rolling on the floor, but also provided more evidence for your theory. Wow.
I had near this exact theory when Twilight Princess came out, at least about the physical relationship between Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time being pivoted around "The Master Sword didn't move" and then extrapolating that there's a much larger Hyrule that each game only takes place in part of. My theory at the time that I never fully teases out was that the rivers were how all the maps fit together
This video is a GODSEND! I saw the length and figured id tune in for a couple minutes but your cadence and humor and brilliant tenacity with making this map work logically kept here til the end! Great work, such a unique experience esp for zelda theorist vids which either take leaps too big or are afraid to have any wiggle room (like you did with the loading screens)
This was a great video, I'm glad the algorithm recommended it and was surprised that it was from a smaller channel, hopefully it will recommended it to a lot more people
The ONLY detail I have to bring up to break this: *The Sealed Grounds/Goddess Temple from Skyward Sword is the SAME Temple in BotW/TotK in Tanagar Canyon... the "Forgotten Temple"? The LARGEST Goddess Statue? The "MOTHER GODDESS STATUE".???*
I'm not so sure. It was definitely used as a design reference, and it is a common theory, but I don't think it's stated in any official sources to be the case. Direct quote from "Creating a Champion": "The Forgotten Temple was constructed in order to keep a record of the heroes throughout history who aided the royal family of Hyrule in the countless ancient battles against Ganon, who unleashed the Calamity on a recovering world." Nowhere does it imply it's the Sealed Temple. Unlike OoT's Temple of Time. Besides, moving the Faron region all the way up there bends the map scaling farther than I am comfortable with. (And as you've seen, I can be comfortable with a lot)
@@MikePhantom The ruins on the Great Plateau ARE actually said to be based on the Town from Ocarina of Time's Castle Town though? (In the BotW book, Creating a Champion.) The Ruins were in fact designed to reflect the Town. The "Eastern Abbey Ruins" are the ruins of OoT's Temple of Time. The pathway behind the castle that Child Link runs through past a Guard are situated next to a skull camp.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber In that same book, they highlight the Forgotten Temple, the Goddess Springs, AND Lanayru Promenade as dating back to Skyward Sword's Hylians. These locations are the ONLY Places in BotW/TotK's Hyrule with imagery depicting Loftwing designs. Besides, the newest Zelda games erased the timeline entirely. Have Fun knowing that. 👋
@@gabriellockwood2780I doubt that the entire history of hyrule was erased. The zonai ruins in Faron are said to be older that the sky islands and this version of hyrule. And In between skyward sword and totk’s past the zonai had to evolve, same with the other species. And remember the springs of power, wisdom, and courage and the loft wing symbols still exist so I think they’re still cannon. And let’s not forget that there are multiple kingdoms in hyrule, the kingdom of hyrule being more an alliance of the land of hyrule. The Zoras and gerudo have their own kings, etc. This current kingdom could have started under Raru, but doesn’t mean it was the first hyrule kingdom, considered that the landmass/ continent is referred to as hyrule. Think the Holy Roman Empire, which is not even Roman or located in Rome, but took the name of Rome. Or the Russian Tsar/Tzar/Czar taking its name from Caesar of Rome.
All of this makes so much sense. The only thing I personally don’t like is that if LttP only takes place in Lesser Hyrue then my own theory of at least some of the Dark World Palaces don’t line up with the OoT Temples anymore . Since a lot of them wouldn’t be in the same area. Turtle Rock snd the Fire Palace would still match. But the Spirit Temple and Missery Mire or Shadow Temple and Thief Town would be in different locations. As would Water/Lakebed Temple and Ice Palace or Forest Temple and Skull Woods
For anyone interested, Monster Maze has an amazing 4 part video series on 'The evolution of Hyrule'. Its map specifically over the many games and he theorizes how all its changes came to be over time. I really recommend it
Did he finish that mini-series yet? Because I faintly remember him saying that he wouldn't do the last part until TotK released;of course this was a few years ago so maybe my memory's betraying me atm.
I think the lost woods moves with the Deku Tree. In ocarina of time, the Deku Tree dies but a sapling deku starts growing right next to it. I think that when the Deku Tree dies, it's possible for the koroks/children of the woods to transport the sapling to a new location for whatever reason
So glad to see this conversation happening. A few things: I personally like the theory that the sealed temple is the forgotten temple. That doesn't really fit in your model and I think there is allot of proof for it. I also like the theory that castletown (and most of the OOT map) is the great plateau. The abbey is the old castle. The mount is the old death mountain. River of the dead is old kakariko village and spirit temple.
I assume that these games' maps aren't always to scale with what you'd expect in universe. BOTW's map may be leagues bigger than Ocarina's, but I wouldn't necessarily say that Ocarina takes place over so much less ground throughout Hyrule. It's a better explanation than loading zones IMO.
That was a great video, watched it all the way though. I was around and playing Zelda 1 when it was the only Zelda game so I enjoyed that you included the NES games. And I played through the entire franchise so this all hit home. I wish I had something to add as far as the map, but all I can say is thank you for making such a thoughtful video. Best of luck on your adventures. Subbed.
I'm terribly sorry for saying this, but it's right from the heart. Your unprofessionalism and your tendency to embrace loose ends, I find them all to be amusing and entertaining. This series is inconsistent after all, and the fact that you acknowledge it is reassuring, since a lot of die hard zelda fans are not. I also love your way of explaining things lol, feels like a fun discussion rather than tutoring, keep up the good work!
Wow, you did an absolutely amazing job taking everything into account in this video, from loading zones to bringing in real life factors, to even just saying when you think you could be stretching something. A few things I have to say is when you where discussing about OOT’s lake Hylia being over the ocean, I was just like Dude, just move it up a bit and it’s right over BOTW’s Lake Hylia, and even matches into account the border of SS’s “grass region” (didn’t know the name), but, it plays with the fact by where you placed TP’s map, lake Hylia’s Bridge would now be just a suspension bridge. There where also multiple times where I thought you would just flip the map horizontally, or vertically and a lot of the 2d maps you struggled with might have fit a lot better. Amazing video anyways!
I think there was one guy who made a timeline theory that put Zeldas 1 and 2 in the Wind Waker timeline, because new Hyrule lines up with lesser Hyrule. New Hyrule could be East Hyrule. I checked the two maps, Don't line up that well, but New Hyrule does line up with Lesser Hyrule. IDK, just passing on an idea I heard from elsewhere.
Things that matter in TotK: -The Eastern Abbey is the remains of the castle from King Rauru's reign. Someone online triangulated it by the position of the Zonai ToT and analyzing the layout of both buildings, and further supported by the second point. In fact, it might even be the same castle from OoT, given the Hylian Temple of Time's proximity! -Breath of the Wild's Hyrule Castle has existed for somewhere over 10,000 years. If Rauru Castle is the same castle as OoT, that has... _implications._
I love cartography explorations, both real and fictional. Thank you for putting so much thought into this. I really appreciated the way you chose to select your fixed points, in the absence of things like defined tectonic plates (though you kinda get one with your geothermal energy region).
The thing about the great plato being the birth of hyrule is that the old man could have been referring to the rarru hyrule which isn’t the first hyrule meaning skyward sword doesn’t even need to fit there
Here's a crazy idea. Lorule is a land without its Triforce. Not only is the master sword nowhere to be found in Minish Cap and Four Swords, neither is Ganondorf. The swamp area overlapping with the desert is another clear connection. I think the Picori Blade is Lorules master sword. That's why there isn't a single destined hero, the green one may be link, but the red blue and purple incarnations could very well just as easily have their own names. Purple link is Ravio.
Note 1: you could make the argument that lake hylia is the ocean. I just don’t know why you would when lake hylia is in botw anyways. It’s in a good place too, just south of the plateau. Note 2: ocarina of time itself implies that the lost woods is somewhat of a spacial anomaly. It creates shortcuts to both death mountain and zora’s river through tunnels and pools. Personally I’ve always interpreted the Lost Woods as it’s own pocket dimension created out of “mysterious wood mysticality” and it can simply be accessed from certain gateways in certain forests. In ocarina of time, those gateways open in forests in the Faron region (unnamed in that game) as well as a few other select locations. In Twilight Princess, it has gateways to both the Faron region and the Temple of Time. In botw the lost woods just happens to have a gateway in the north. So whilst you could argue the forest just changes over time, you could also say that the lost woods is magic. Additionally cloud based spacial manipulation we see in botw’s lost woods also might explain how the cloud barriers work in ss, as well as the cloud portals the dragons use in botw (as well as certain things in totk) Note 3: this is a controversial opinion but I personally hate FSa’s timeline placement. I actually really wanted to make a map analysis to find a different timeline placement for FSa. Personally I think the FS trilogy comes consecutively after each other (perhaps in a parallel timeline to other games since there’s so many similarities (picori blade = parallel master sword, lightforce = parallel triforce)) because I simply don’t understand why FSA is so far away from the other two. And why are the gerudo back and why would they have another king named after Hyrule’s latest dictator?? It doesn’t make sense to me. Also btw it is perfectly fine to handwave the “official” sources, bc it is mostly fanservice and subject to change. I’m pretty sure one of the books say that the timeline is more for the convenience and up to interpretation for the player. So don’t limit yourself to the timeline if it sucks. Note 4: alongside natural forests and water bodies changing, as well as human relocation, you forgot a third way locations can move. Gods themselves can simply pick up land masses and yeet them into the sky! But in general, this is a good fucking video, nice job!! The map placement definitely needs to be talked more especially amongst timeline theorists. Really insightful stuff!!
Soooo…smaaall problem. The Sealed Temple from Skyward Sword isn’t the location of the Temple of Time in t/BOTW. It is clearly stated (I believe in Creating a Champion), that the Sealed Temple became BOTW’s Forgotten Temple…you know where you get the Tunic of the Wild in BOTW. It has the oldest Goddess Staute (which checks out with Skyward Sword) and the tree Link plants in Skyward Sword to the left of the statue is still there in BOTW, growing through the wall. The structure has been buried into a canyon and rebuilt a lot of hundreds of thousands of years, but it’s still there
Well, its a small problem with an easy solution with Tears of the Kingdom in place (if you like the teory that places the past between Skyward Sword and Minish Cap). Prob. the new Hylia temple was where the triforce and the sword was maintained, maybe like relics but without knowing the real power of them. Thats why the sword and the Triforce dont appear in Minish Cap. Prob. between Minish Cap and Ocarina of Time was something that makes the triforce remembered and wanted, and thats why it was moved with the sword to the new Temple of Time, keeping them protected from the devil of that time.
Direct quote from "Creating a Champion": "The Forgotten Temple was constructed in order to keep a record of the heroes throughout history who aided the royal family of Hyrule in the countless ancient battles against Ganon, who unleashed the Calamity on a recovering world. The original concept for the temple was that it had been abandoned for so long that it had faded from people's memories. At the beginning of development, the canyon was so deeply tied to the royal family that it was called the "Valley of the Royal Family". As with everywhere throughout Hyrule, the Guardians here are possessed by Ganon, but rather than having invaded the temple from Hyrule Castle during the Great Calamity, they were placed here long ago to protect the facility. Since it is a building that represents Hyrule's ancient past, the design incorporates construction elements from Skyward Sword in a similar way to the Springs of Wisdom, Courage, and Power, as well as Lanayru Road." While it does say it took design inspiration from Skyward Sword (hence the cute tree reference probably), it never outright says the Forgotten Temple is the same as the Sealed Temple. Rather, this makes it seem to be a relic from the first Great Calamity where the Sheikah used the Guardians. The Sealed Temple connection may have been stated elsewhere, IDK. But moreso I've just seen it as a very prolific fan theory. Besides, moving the Faron region up there bends the geography a bit more than I'm comfortable with (and as you've seen, I can be comfortable with quite a bit). But TotK has also been getting me to question the Old Man's "birthplace of Hyrule" statement, so IDK. Thanks for the input tho :)
@@carlesmeseguer8089the rito didn't exist back then so i personally think it is (better option) after hyrule was forgotten after hundreds of years of war and rauru simply refounded hyrule or (worse option) another timeline split because zelda went to the past
A cool concept for the lost woods is if the great deku tree could somehow move, and maybe adapts wherever he goes to the become the lost woods. The thing that gets me is that the remains of Lon Lon Ranch are in Hyrule field in BoTW, so unless they moved the ranch and rebuilt it as a perfect replica, then idk what to make of that
absolutely lovely video! would love to see this retackled with the new context of totk's ancient hyrule. without getting too into spoilers, im a firm believer in Pre-Skyward Sword placement! for the memories, not the whole game, obvs. but quick rundown on why: lack of MS and hero incarnation (as far as we know) makes it exceptionally odd to be placed otherwise, as those conventions are established within SS. justification for demise? he's a phantom, akin to calamity ganon. an echo of the First. we know for a fact that seals will weaken, and his essence will coagulate into new forms, instead of simply just breaking the seal. as old as the franchise itself, with the Wizard, Agahnim, etc. seals upon seals, kingdoms built upon kingdoms.
Thank you! I'm super glad you liked it! I may make a follow-up TotK video at some point, but I'm still figuring out the timeline implications myself. I also haven't finished the game as of yet (although I have collected all the tears, so I am mostly up-to-date on the past stuff). Right now I'm more in the post-timeline re-founding camp than the pre-SS or post-SS-pre-MC/OoT groups. Mostly because the complete and total lack of Triforce, when almost all of the early-timeline conflict is Triforce-centric is super weird to me. Not just SS and OoT, but the Demise War and Interloper War as well. Although I do get heavy Demise vibes from Big G's Demon King form in TotK, the objects of their motivations just don't line up. Like, OoT Ganon wanted to use the Triforce to rule Hyrule, so Agahnim took steps to break the seal so he could do just that. So why would Demise be after the Triforce when this TotK Ganon (presumably) had no concept of what that was? Following the Agahnim logic, Demise's goal should have been removing Raru's seal and collecting more Infinity Stones. Also, LttP Ganon seemed to know everything Agahnim knew. It seems like Ganon experienced all of Agahnim's actions as a projection of himself. But the Dehydrated Boi wakes up knowing only what Raru told him. If Demise was a projection of that Ganondorf, with all of his intellect and such being shared and seeming to remain intact, why would he not recognize the Sword his nemesis built specifically for him and which he, himself, as Demise, seems to have wielded a sword that was a counterpart of sorts to it? Instead he has to ask "Is that the 'Sword That Seals the Darkness'?" But it would make more sense for him to not recognize it if the only projections of himself he had ever manifested were of his blind anger and calamitous desire for destruction like we see in BotW. Long response I know, and I could have gone longer in explaining where I currently stand, but maybe a comment section on a non-TotK theory video isn't the right place to debate this, lol. I don't really mean to directly attack you or your theory or anything. I'm just trying to work through what to believe, myself.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber dont worry at all, i didnt perceive it as an attack at all!!! this is what i wanted, actually! criticism and volleying of ideas is valuable and important in theory crafting, so im really happy to hear your insights and ideas!! thank you so much for replying and sharing. i agree, the lack of triforce makes it very very curious indeed. my justification for that is that it is still hidden, much like the secret stones were, but instead of just physically being hidden away, was also hidden away from everyone, with only a select few even knowing of its existence at all. this carries forward into demise having different goals from ganondorf the first*, since youre right, he doesnt seem to have any conception of his previous self. which i point to with calamity ganon, rather than agahnim. youre completely right though about agahnim, i just cited him as a thematic parallel, rather than literal, which is my bad. ganon is prone to using puppets, as we've seen. i figured that since rauru's seal seems to prevent him from seeing his Doppelgangers' actions, that would account for demise's lack of knowledge on secret stones, and pivot to the triforce, which wouldve been discovered in the interim between totk memories and skyward sword. further on this, theres the origin of zelda's power, and that comes into conflict with what we're shown in totk's memories! sonia has time powers, and rauru has light powers. afaik, hylia is associated with both powers already, so sonia should ALSO have light powers, right? but she doesnt, as far as we know. further, we also know that sonia and rauru have kin, because the royal bloodline persists past both of their deaths unto zelda. SO. my crackpot headcanon/theory? their daughter is hylia. i like to imagine her peeking into the castle during ganondorf's oath of fealty, to parallel OoT. not gonna pretend ANY of my ideas are at all fact, haha, but i love to speculate!! its so fascinating, the possible story beats we just cant see yet!
Speaking of crackpot theories; we already have an explanation for the Royal Family's powers of light in the rest of the series. You know those fuzzy people that came down from the sky early in the timeline to assist in establishing Hyrule by bringing a darkness-banishing light that lives within the princess and bestows the Power to Repel Evil (tm) to a magical sword. You know, the Minish? The Zonai are Tall Minish. The Minish even use magical, elemental-themed stones that can manifest copies of warriors to assist the Hero. Except they skipped the sagely middle-man and built that function directly into the sword. Plus, if you look at Vaati and the Four Sword sanctuary architecture, the eyeball motif is similar to the one the Zonai use (although, eye motifs are nothing new to the series, lol) That's more of a funny observation that I made rather than something I 100% believe tho. (I only about 30% believe it) My personal theory that explains the TotK memories is that it's a re-establishment in the Adult Timeline, after a few thousand years of climate change to reduce the sea levels. It's the only end-of-timeline that leaves ancestral Hyrule vacant enough for the Raru to establish a kingdom. It has an explanation for the lack of Triforce (washed away by Daphnes' final wish). It allows all the races present to coexist without having to ask where all the Rito went in OoT (and if there were Rito pre-SS, then why did the Zora have to evolve for there to be Rito in WW? And if there were Zora pre-SS, then are SS's Parella not their ancestor like we thought? And so on...). It has a definitively dead Ganondorf, leaving a clean break in Demise incarnations for a new Demon King to do his stuff without having to justify a bunch of simultaneous instances of Ganon. And it lets Demise and his curse remain the origin of the Zelda cycle, which I find more narratively satisfying than "Oops! Nope! There was actually another, earlier, even eviler Demon King who is the ACTUAL origin. 100% actually FOR REAL this time, you gotta trust me bro!" Plus, this removes TotK from the crowded pre-split timeline so it doesn't step on any toes. (it also gives the Minish time to evolve to be tall, lol) This also wouldn't be the series' first re-establishment and re-origin of Zelda. Because Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link establishes a tale of Zelda the First... long after SS had the first Zelda. So, even though it's a shoehorned-in retcon, it shows there can be more than one "establishment of the Kingdom of Hyrule". This still does have its holes tho. If the Triforce was lost in the flood, then how does BotW have the Master Sword, which was also at ground zero of Hyrule's erasure? Although that era's Master Sword isn't present in the TotK memories, so maybe it was only rediscovered by the Sheikah during the First Calamity? (but then why didn't they also find the Triforce? Or maybe they did and that's the plot of the 3rd game???) But that's where I stand on the matter. Feel free to poke holes so I can re-examine myself and question whether or not I should truly cave in and admit that BotW/TotK are actually a hard reboot that unsatisfyingly retcons the rest of the series into mere legend.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber very good observations and points all around! personally im also against the idea that all previous games are just. Legends now, and not strictly canonical. with the zonai being tall picori, that DOES make sense! it would explain the lack of other zonai during the memories, as theyre stated to have... disappeared! and in minish cap, we learn that the picori only appear every 100 years through a gateway in hyrule castle's garden, so perhaps rauru and mineru stayed behind, loving hyrule too much, and directly disobeying their cultural traditions. narratively, im opposed to the idea of Any Game that has Ganondorf or Iterations of Demise's Curse in it post Windwaker, because the whole thesis of it is washing away the sins of the past, and i really do enjoy the idea that they broke the cycle, and just. do their own thing now, hence the weirdness of spirit tracks. but i can be convinced otherwise to address a point i forgot to address earlier, demise has a Dark Master Sword, but has it BEFORE the goddess sword was forged into the master sword. technically. i mean, at that point in the game, you DO have the master sword, but you forged it through... timey wimey shenanigans. SO. i dont see demise having a weird Dark Sword that looks nearly identical to the master sword as evidence against my theory, BUT it is a good point. regardless of ANY of our ideas, theories, or conceptions, they seem to all have really... mixed implications and ramifications for the entire series. no matter what answer we seem to come up with, something has to be sacrificed, in a sense. any explanation seems to undermine SOME part of the series, or a core theme/message, and that's... difficult to reconcile. i love this series still, and reconciling all this is super fun! but it isnt easy, thats for sure. anywho, thanks for taking the time to respond and bounce ideas together with me!!! such a pleasure, cant wait to see more content from you in the future!!
And thank YOU for the civil discussion! I'll definitely take this conversation into consideration if I address TotK in a future video. Although I can't guarantee all my future content will strictly focus on Zelda theories lol. That said I do have one or two ideas I've been sitting on for a bit. And with this video seeming to get some traction, it might just give me the motivation I need to get to work on them.
Oot map actually fits better than you might think! Lon Lon ranch ruins are in botw/TotK. That means your basically only need to align those two areas to guess the rest. That puts kokiri forest/lost woods more north above the castle, which fits botw where the deku tree is! And even puts gerudo region closer to where it should be. Edit: the only thing that's majorly wrong then is the location of death mountain, but it will be inconsistent either way so I'd rather choose the option where 80% is correct. Edit:
I remember seeing someone comment something once about the map of wind waker lining up with the map from twilight princess outset Island is where ordon village is death mountain to death mountain and forest to forest the hyrule from ocorina of time is under the sea as we all know so yeah
I enjoyed this way more than I ever thought I would. I put it as a background noise type of video while putting away laundry and now I’m on the floor, looking at the tv, laundry forgotten about. You have made a surprisingly cohesive solution despite the lack of unified landmarks and/or constant positionment of Hyrule’s general map, I really enjoyed this!
Twilight princeses lost woods lines up almost perfectly with the giant tree stump (in tears you get fierce deity here) so I think this is twilight princess lost woods.
I really enjoyed this. I love taking a look at the series as a whole and trying to make connections where there probably aren't any. One thing I will mention is that it's implied that the Forgotten Temple in Breath of the Wild is the Sealed Temple from Skyward Sword based on the Loftwing statues and genral architecture and layout of the structure and the fact that the single biggest goddess statue in BotW is located there. It' does mess up the idea that OoT's temple of time was located directly over the top of it but as that evidence came from a book I would take evidence that with a pinch of salt. The Books are fine to use for coroberating evidence but if stuff from the games seems to contradict I'd take what the games say over it.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber I haven’t played skyward sword, so I don’t know the details of that game, BUT the biggest goddess statue in BotW is not the one in the temple on the great plateau. The biggest one is called the “mother goddess statue” and is located in “the forgotten temple” in the ravine northwest of Hyrule castle. Then in TotK, you can do a quest for the mother goddess statue that upon completing, you will receive the “white sword of the sky” which has the description, “a sword said to have once belonged to a hero from the sky…. blah blah blah”. Not sure of the implications, just throwing this info into the mix, lol.
@ThunderbrandGaming The mother statue is so much smaller than in Skyward sword as that statue was gigantic. It feels like the forgotten temple is a replica or it was supposed to be the sealed temple but got retconned in TOTK since its now Sonia's grave and they added a whole portion to it behind the mother statue that has nothing to do with the sealed temple.
So I finished the rest of the video. No I won't make further investigations on how the maps could fit, I think I just head-canon yours. It actually makes sense and pointed a lot of things out, I haven't realized before... for example, that the "Lost Woods" in TP aren't actually the Lost Woods. (Just as we always assumed that the King in OOT is a Hylian and could NEVER be a Sonai, as I suspect.) Thanks for the video, guess I am showing thisfrom now on whenever someone asks me about the consistency. maybe I might add or substract a few details, but currently, I don't even know which ones. Your expslanations really make sense. edit: Oh and I could also imagine that Vaati is more itnerested in the Power of Zelda than Triforce, because Vaati seems to admire something within the essence of sentient creatures (he became fascinated with human's sinfulness and so on), so the Triforce of the gods might be more powerful but 1) maybe it is too impersonal 2) he didn't even know it existed at all^^ Edit_Edit: Btw I love the images you use to explain that you say, for example Rivali fits perfectly with your speech or the Knight Suit in 18:45. It is a nice joke without really interupting the message
About the Lost Woods being really inconsistent: In Breath, the Crenel Hills have huge tree stumps. Others have theorized that these were once the Deku Tree. It's possible that monster forces cut them down and the Tree was forced to relocate, many times. Since the Deku Tree is in the Lost Woods, maybe it moved a lot.
There's WAYYYYY more than 11000 years between BOTW and TP. It's said that there were at least 2 calamites before the Great Calamity with the Unknown Hero. That makes that gap in excess of 30000 years
Theory about the lost woods movement. The Master Sword is almost always in the lost woods. The lost woods were consistently around the temple of time in many of the games, which is where you would find the Master Sword. While in BotW, it moved to the Deku tree because that's where it was placed while Link slept. So maybe the Master Sword is what creates the Lost Woods as a "trial" of sorts for those that seek it out.
To explain the desert of mystery look no further than paines prairie (near jacksonville). A lake large enough to have steamboats that was drained with a sinkhole, and has very few trees.
What bothers me is: - The Temple of Time was built on the site of the Sealed Temple. Okay, cool. Makes sense. - The Temple of Time appears on the Great Plateau, at the site of the founding of Hyrule. Okay, cool. Makes sense. - BotW's Forgotten Temple, in a completely different part of the map, was heavily based on the Sealed Temple, implying that the Sealed Temple and the Temple of Time are two completely different locations. Not cool. When the devs said that BotW was sort of at the end of all three branches of the timeline, having multiple versions of the same temple wandering the map is not what I wanted. :/
In regards to why Hyrule might move so quickly between games I am staring at that Hyrule Civil War tag. If Hyrule had two factions each calling themselves Hyrule for instance than its possible for there to be two Hyrules at once, each being its own government and kingdom. But when the war ended there would only be one, but that winner might not be the original thus Hyrule as well as its ruling capital and castle could have moved in a very short period of time.
Such a good video 👌 when hyrule encyclopedia tried to do this i was like "nah bruh this is bs" but totk basically confirmed that it's always the same hyrule, and you can also see the oldest map of hyrule in that game... Also the encyclopedia does a good job with other maps, it says that hytopia from tri force heroes is located on those islands in zelda 2... But there are some issues, for example hyrule historia says that the master sword in alttp was inside a temple that decayed long ago, so is it the temple of time???? It never says it but why mention it was in a temple lol Also your question of "where is the master sword " in minish cap, well hyrule encyclopedia confirms that the twili where banished and then the triforce was sealed and the master sword was left behind the door of time, and all of this happens before minish cap
14:00 Nah Lake Hylia always looked like an Ocean to me in OOT. How else is "interesting stuff" washed up at the coast as the woman at the market place states?
My theory on 4 swords adventure is that the place under the castle takes them to a different realm (like lorule) where they find the 4 sword before Vati takes them away in the winds-this means they never actually go back to main Hyrule, so one could interpret that as them being in a sideways dimension, sort of like majoras mask, showing why the map is so weird
The main objection I have to this is that the forgotten temple in botw is blatantly the sealed temple, it includes the tree, the mother goddess statue, and I believe its also laid out exactly the same Also, I know this was made before totk, so you didn't know this, but the mother goddess statue in the temple also gives you the goddess sword
I've been itching for this video to exist. Thank you for doing this! You did so much better than anyone else could have. Thank you so much for this amazing content!
Thanks! It really means a lot! I made this because I also noticed this hole in Zelda speculation, so it's really affirming to hear that you think I managed to fill it well.
I really love this idea and im shocked that the video has only around 7000 views. I hope you'll do some more theories and you get the attention you deserve
Actually, OoT's Lake Hylia being right next to the sea really does work out. Remember, the Water Temple is kind of sacred to the Zora. The species of Zora later stated to be _Ocean Zora_
I know many people have pointed out the totk retcon regarding the temple of time, but I believe that it’s not actually that much of a retcon. The temple of time and surrounding area could still be oot castle town. Remember the tenple of time in the sky is a completely different temple and is in much better shape. It’s possible that the history books got it the two temples mixed up, leading to one of them being mistaken for the birthplace of hyrule, or they could be the birthplace of their specific kingdom of hyrule. I mean if hyrule castle has moved, maybe it’s also due to a change in dynasty or government collapse. And the springs work as direct anchors from skyward sword to botw/totk the forgotten temple must have been modified/ built post demon king gannon to house the secret stones and tears map. And personally the founding of hyrule’s by raru Must be different from in skyward sword or at least thousands of years into the future due to the existence of Zora, Rito Gerudo, Gorons, and Even the Zonai, who have ruins from before raru’s kingdom on the surface in Faron. Remember none of these species existed yet. Granted, games in lesser hyrule could easily avoid showing the rito because they’re in a different area and oot doesn’t go into those mountains. And the rito could have fled in twilight princess due to the weather, but wind water looking rito show up in the hd remake in carving form. This implies that rito still at least started to evolve from zora like in wind waker around that point in the timelines. I love how you didn’t just try and overlap all maps over eachother, you found that each game took place in a separate area of hyrule. Makes me hyped to hopefully see northern hyrule again.
Thank you very much! I'm glad you enjoyed it! TotK does confuse some things, but I think I'm also in the re-founding camp vs placing the tear cutscenes over by SS. My money is actually on a flood-receded Adult timeline due to the lack of Triforce and being the only Hyrule Kingdom vacant enough to re-found. And if BotW gets a 2nd sequel, I would love to see them re-imagine North Hyrule.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber TOTK-after-TWW placement for the win! Aside from the arguments that were already used in the days of BOTW such as the "ancient sea" and the adult timeline only species inhabiting Hyrule, TOTK gives us more to think about. A new story about how Hyrule was established, but also... There are massive petrified roots all over the Depths (and I'm not talking about the shrines roots). What if the Great Deku Tree's plan from TWW worked, and all the trees he planted managed to connect all the islands together? Their massive roots becoming the foundation for the new kingdom's landmass. Then over the years the Great Sea disappeared and the Depths were born. The Depths have this very bottom-of-the-ocean look and feel. Maybe because it's what it really was. Though I have to say, I feel like the Zelda team is trying to keep the BOTW saga out of the timeline, and it's even more clear with TOTK. So I prefer to say it's its own thing. But if I had to place the games it would definitely be in the adult timeline.
i find your theory about how to fit minish cap into this so funny, because like. i love the idea that there’s an incarnation of link where he doesn’t get to wield the master sword and doesn’t get to possess the triforce of courage, not because he’s failed or because his destiny has changed, but because all that was just not geographically near him fjebfbdb
I loved this video, and I adore the theory! You did a fantastic job of fitting so many disparate parts together, and I really like your rules and explanations (especially the loading zone thing; I honestly think that makes a lot of sense so don't stress about it being a cop-out or something). Overall very glad I spent my time watching this! A shame TotK had to come in and ruin the timeline :) and make any ideas about the founding of Hyrule including Temple of Time locations be questioned :):) and... look, I love that game to death but like,, literally their last 3D Zelda established the founding of Hyrule? Did they? Really have to instantly establish a different founding of Hyrule? It's so frustrating, but ignoring all that I think this theory is a great foundation
I'm really, really glad you liked it, even if I took a hacksaw to some of the maps, lol! Yeah... TotK kinda throws a wrench in the works. Although I am still pretty confident in my SS/OoT placements through their relation to TP. So even though the "birthplace of Hyrule" statement is a lot more iffy now, I'm not too bothered. That said, I'm more in the post-timeline re-founding camp than it replacing or predating SS, or sitting awkwardly between SS and OoT on the pre-split timeline. It steps on fewer toes and raises fewer questions IMO. But that's this whole other debate.
If you go along with the line of thinking that "everything developed before and up to Skyward Sword is legend and mythology and may not be entirely accurate to what the canon of BotW and TotK is", as well as "TotK's Past segment is a retelling of Ocarina of Time and the imprisoning war that happened right after", I feel like it allows you to be a lot more flexible with the map placements, especially since the Zonai-founded Hyrule is centered on the Great Plateau / Old Hyrule making it consistent with your Old Hyrule placement as well as where everything is placed in Ocarina of Time. So it doesn't feel like it really screws up anything. It also allows Wind Waker's "The Castle moved to the north of the previous location that Ganon destroyed" to line up with TotK's canon that "the new castle was built over the site of ganon's imprisonment to prevent accidental disturbance", with the castle being to the north of the Great Plateau.
I used to feel this way too, but I was convinced that TotK's founding of Hyrule takes place between SS and OoT somewhere due to Koume and Kotake appearing in the game as younger Gerudo, meaning it's around 400 years before OoT. Think of it like this SS Link and Zelda settle down, but since they are really just regular people, they don't jump into founding a massive kingdom. Later, the Zonai descend from the Sky (likely from the City in the Sky from TP due to their similar advanced technology and how Shad speaks of an ancient civilization that helped found Hyrule) A looooong time later, a descendent of SS Zelda (Sonia) marries Rauru and Hyrule is founded. Then come the interlopers a long time later and a Sage named after the first king (OoT Rauru) builds the Temple of Time over where Rauru's Palace, and before it, The Sealed Grounds, used to be.
@@Inkyink "Kotake" and "Koume" are just names. It's a cool easter egg, but this series likes re-using archetypes too much for me to put too much weight on a name alone. Unless you want to convince me Beedle is immortal and Malon reincarnates, lol. I'm still not completely sold on that placement. I just have too many questions, and that part of the timeline feels a bit crowded as it is.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber Understandable. Just makes the most sense to me with little to no damage done to the existing timeline. It also fits nicely in more circumstantial matters like OoT Rauru, Sage of Light, being named after the King of Light, The next Ganondorf iteration always wearing a yellow stone on his forehead as a sort of echo to fill the void of where the Secret Stone is for The Demon King, etc. While there are questions, I just find it the most reasonable and satisfying
10:28. Already we have an issue. The sealed temple can be found in botw and totk. It's in the big canyon separating Tabatha and hebra from Ridgeland. Also when it comes to ocarinas death mountain maybe it became dueling peaks. People have theorized windfall is the remains of oot kakariko
Yeah, so far that's the Hidden Temple's uncanny architectural similarities are the most commonly cited criticism so far. I'll have to address it in a follow-up.
I think it could make sense that upon settling the surface, they didn't actually build around the Sealed Temple, and instead traveled somewhere far away that was still inhabitable. Think about all the backstories where spirits say like "the location of the triforce was discovered, causing a war", that could literally mean between Minish Cap and Ocarina of Time people in Lesser Hyrule find out about the Triforce in the yet unmade Old Hyrule, and everyone rushed over there to get it, so the Royal family reestablished themselves in "Old Hyrule" to protect the triforce properly, instead of just hoping no one went over there.
It’s funny how the series has this sort of inconsistency yet I really miss it. Tears of the Kingdom was so boring to explore since it really, REALLY felt like I’d already been there before
Yeah. Caves helped, and the depths were cool at first, but the rest was only interesting insofar as I could check in on how the BotW characters were faring post-timeskip. What I want most from a future game is to explore a re-imagined Northern continent from Zelda 2.
![How TotK (and you) CHANGED my Map Theory [Legend of Zelda Theory]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8JbRFuFNOFM/mqdefault.jpg)
![How TotK (and you) CHANGED my Map Theory [Legend of Zelda Theory]](/img/tr.png)
I'm not sure if anyone else mentioned it, but the four sword sanctuary in Four Swords adventures was located in the ice area, it wasn't under Hyrule castle. It's revealed in the 2nd to last world
What? The? Actual?
How and why did I miss this?
But also, if that's the case, what the *hell* was is up with the whole sealed off portal leaking darkness inside the castle? Why was that maiden-powered seal there when all you had to do was walk into a forest?
Why does Adventures gotta be like that?
Screw it! if that's the case, the castle in FSA can be the TP one in Greater Hyrule, and the Ice Temple is approximately in the aLttP castle location in Lesser Hyrule. The proportions suck nether regions, I can do whatever I want! I quit.
@@brosephlacasquevtuberNO! PLEASE DON'T QUIT!
@@brosephlacasquevtuber19:49 this is probably not important but some entries in the hyrule compendium in BOTW state that the object or enemy can be found in "Greater Hyrule" 👀
@@brosephlacasquevtuberI think it was mentioned somewhere that there was another hero of the 4 sword who like the hero of men was not in a game, maybe he is the reason for the sword moving and being sealed by maidens
@@brosephlacasquevtuber even worse i'm pretty sure the hyrule in minish cap is in the location of ocarina of time's hyrule and not alttp hyrule as the way to solve it's weird geographical oddity's with the mountains on either side of the castle can be solved by flipping the map upside down. Doing this will cause the mountains on the sides to line up with with the mountains southwest of the great plateau leaving everything else fitting nicely in the area of botw hyrule field. This does cause a discrepancy with the location of the four sword but there's a simple explanation being that it was moved at some point after minish cap ended and there is evidence to support this as the door to the picori world is no longer in the chamber where the four sword is sealed. I'm pretty sure the gate to the picori world is something that can't be very easily moved if at all so the only logical conclusion is that the sword was moved.
One thing I wanted to point out, the lost woods jumping around is completely realistic, as real forests do in fact move around alot as old trees die and new ones grow, especially when humans get involved, forests can change faster than mountains and lakes do, this would also explain the remains of massive trees that you can find laying around, as there can be more than one deku tree planted at a time as established in wind water, but they probably don't all grow into great deku trees.
I'm fairly certain the koroks and kokiri and all other "children of the forest" are beholden to some forest protector, hence they swarm around that protector wherever it arises. If the only available forest guardian spawns forth across the land, sea, and continents, I guess the people of the forest just make do, adapt as they can, and move to that location, taking their magical properties with them.
I'm pretty sure whenever a Deku tree grows, a lost woods form.
the forest spirits are what cause the lost woods effect
People continuously get lost in the woods because no one can create a map of it because it keeps moving
Also its called "lost woods" not the "its right over there woods" i can believe its not trustworthy plus even in ocarina it linked completly unrelqted areas
My favorite thing is that all of the mountains and barriers of Hyrule from Ocarina diminished, places like Gerudo Desert and Zora's domain and Lake Hylia completely shifted to new areas, Hyrule Castle underwent several makeovers... yet the little toolshed and fence from Lon Lon Ranch stuck around through all this immense geologic change.
The entire economy of Hyrule depends on that ranch. There's a reason why Ganondorf kept it standing when he took over, just changing who was in charge.
I just now, as I was watching the video came up with an idea for why the Lost Woods might move, and it honestly seems more plausible to me than a great deal of other explanations given. The Lost Woods almost always have a Great Deku Tree, but it's not the same tree from game to game. In Ocarina, you use a seed from the Great Deku Tree in the future to plant a new one after the old one got Gohma'd. Anyone could plant a new Great Deku Tree anywhere and I feel like the Lost Woods would grow around the tree since the two are inseparably linked
That is a really great point actually
@@MerkhVision You can also see the remains of multiple great trees in the BtoW map. So yea, the fact the forest moved? We can see the evidence of it. We know it happened. You can see the old stumps. When the great tree is falls, the forest decays into a "normal" forest, no longer having it's power making it the Lost Woods or Sacred Grove (which, we know OVERLAP from talking to the Great Tree in BtoW/TotK. The Great Deku Tree, even if we don't actually visit it in the game, acts as a nexus of sacred power to help keep the Master Sword charged.
And one thing I was suprised Broseph didn't talk about is the existence, or lack there of, of compass roses in some of the games. Or the fact, that even in the real world, compass north can move. Maybe Hyrule's world has a very unstable core, that wildly swings about, shifting compass north quite a bit. I mean, considering the sheer amount of magical fuckery (Seriously, OoT's Sun Song. You just rotated the planet around 180 degrees in the span of a few seconds. How many times did you do this in an average playthrough because you were impatient and wanted a different time of day for something?). And Hyrule is just one kingdom in a world where shenanigans like this are happening frequently.
I always figured this was the case. I'm surprised more game theorists aren't factoring this possibility
Has this not been confirmed? I may be remembering wrong but I’m pretty sure the games say this is the case.
Also, the lost woods is thinking with portals! Chuck a seed over your shoulder in there? It might land on the other side of Hyrule.
The Skyward Sword part makes sense, but the only problem is that the Forgotten Temple in BotW is very clearly based on the Sealed Temple in Skyward Sword. It's got the giant goddess statue and Groose's Tree in there too.
that might be a replica or just a reference, we already had the confirmation that the sealed temple was rebuilt into the temple of time,
both BOTW and TOTK don't make any sense, in one game we have a lot of hylia statues on the overworld, meanwhile in the rest of the games we don't see any, there must have been an architectonic project made by the royal family and the sheikah to rebuilt those landmarks, in the TOTK past they don't even know about the master sword or the triforce, they just call it "light / time powers"
so TOTK "past" and "creation of hyrule" must have been just a reconstruction of the kingdom after it was destroyed, otherwise they should have known about demise, the master sword and the sealed temple
@@troloinktoseems to me like totk's past scenes are still just the far future to the other games, aslong as the skyword sword architecture style ruins still exist in the past (we dont see them afaik) it would make sense
and yeah they forgot but thats not a lore breaker or anything
@@troloinkto yeah, I think those games are definitely in their own timeline
Im pretty sure BOTW map and story is the end of the timeline as we know it. There is remnants of all 3 timelines in different places of the map. My theory is that some catastrophic event smashed everything back together
@@tylermorales4958 there's another theory out there, basically the one game that's not canon, Hyrule Warriors. the whole story is basically when the timelines split, that fractured the power of Ganon and his triforce, and a witch lady who was supposed to watch over the worlds, well she fell in love with the hero's soul, but couldn't have him...then she got the magic whisper Zant style and she used forbidden powers to pull fragments of all three timelines together into a single new-ish fused realm. this would both fix the overall timeline AND could easily cover all the odd bits that do or do not pop up in the last two games
So about the saltwater Lake Hylia thing: Something you may know if you've played all of the Zelda games is that there are actually two varieties of Zora: one which have mainly pale skin and which resemble sharks, and one which have colorful skin, more monstrous features, and look more like traditional fish. In the one game where both species appear at once (Oracle of Ages), it's revealed that the shark-like Zora are "saltwater Zora", and the fish-like Zora are "freshwater Zora".
Guess which variety of Zora you see in Ocarina of Time?
(This actually, to me, also serves as a potential theory for how Zora and Rito coexist in Breath of the Wild. The Zora you see in BotW could actually be the descendants of freshwater Zora, while the saltwater Zora evolved into the Rito)
Yeah, i noticed the Zora species split too. The OoA Zoras even have a descendant of Lord Jabu Jabu.
If Breath/Tears are in the Downfall timeline, that's the Zore/Rito explanation I would go with. It might even explain the other Zora's Domain Yona hails from.
The River Zora are an mutated version of the OoT Zora, which appear to live shorter lives based on the Rito than the Ocean Zora near Labrynna. The 2 species likely interbred before BotW, as they clearly age more slowly than the OoT Zora.
So, Gary, which Zora were the enemy Zora in Zelda One, shooting at you, and why were they so defensive and / or aggressive?
@@richjordan6461 Not sure who you're talking to (is Broseph names Gary?) but it's the River Zora who were attacking you in Zelda 1, aLttP, etc. There are several River Zora who dont attack you tho, like the Zora in aLttP who sells you the Flippers.
The Zelda II revelation was honestly the most surprising thing about this to me. That's cool that the map can spread even further beyond the borders of Hyrule from the previous game. I'd love to see a Zelda game where you can travel between different Kingdoms.
I’ve seen many videos speculating on what’s beyond Hyrule, as this is just one county/continent.
Imagine a new Zelda game with the botw formula but we can go to various kingdoms AND realms, they being implied or at least inspired by previous places. Like you have the default open world of Hyrule, being able to go anywhere and having the sandbox powers, then going to Holodrun to have a story focused world that opens up very linearly, full of classic dungeons, and then Labrynia own overworld being a giant puzzle, with you only being able to use key itens from that region, so the world opens up like a Metroidvania game.
I didn't realize there was a labyrinth island in the northeast corner of Zelda II's map. Mind blown
Technically speaking, we did get two games (arguably three) where Link went to different lands outside of Hyrule. Those are the Oracle games (and Link's Awakening if you count the dream world as a semi-real place, something akin to Sub-con). I know it's probably not what you meant, and you want a game where we can physically visit Hyrule AND other lands outside its borders. But it is confirmation that there are other lands/kingdoms out there. Who knows? Maybe one day it will be a reality.
BOTW and TOTK pretty much necessitate them going outside of Hyrule if they're going to continue the open world formula in the next game.
They tried to spice it up in TOTK with the sky and the depths, but any new game will have to take it outside of Hyrule.
Bearing in mind two things: Hyrule exists around a massive, (very) active volcano, so we can assume there’s lots of seismic activity - not to mention lots of destroyed and re-emerging forests and towns, and mountains caving in on themselves after eruptions. The second thing is that Hyrule exists in a world with powerful magic (e.g. Ganondorf can just freeze all of Zora’s Domain or destroy an entire island out of spite). Suddenly entire forests, lakes, mountains and cities moving around doesn’t seem so unusual.
I was gonna say: Other than the placement of Kakariko village, A Link to the Past’s map is really close to BotW’s. Though fun fact: in the Japanese version of ALttP, the Light World Death Mountain was called “Mt. Hebra”, so figure that one out
Other comments have mentioned that some maps work better or worse when flipped horizontally or vertically, so... Fuckery?
Isn't the mountains north of Hyrule in a Link to the Past Hebra in all games? I think I played an english version and it appeared as that. Death Mountain is still there as the dark world version so they might have just flipped dimensions as in A Link Between Worlds which is a direct continuation Death Mountain and Hebra are in Hyrule and Lorule respectively.
One thing that has bothered me is the location of spectacle rock. In alttp it's north, on top of death mountain, in botw it's at the edge of gerudo desert
@@mikailvandartelworth taking a look at skull lake in BotW. Names change, but being a major geological landform, it's possible that the spires of skull lake are what are known as spectacle rock in earlier games.
I've said this before, if you flip the locations of kakariko and hyrule castle, the maps of aLttP and BotW match really close if you squint and take some liberties.
I used it for a while as part of an argument that BotW occurred in Downfall, the only real issue is Zora River being a bit further north in aLttP and Lake Hylia being in the exact opposite side of the map, but I always just sort of, mapped it as Hyrule castle being moved to where Kakariko used to be after Adventure of Link and the other issues I just pretended didn't exist.
I wasn't the most honest with myself when it came to my personal BotW timeline preference, but everything else fit so well, I still don't get why Nintendo has to be so adamant on BotW being in a merged timeline when there's no clear way for that to be the case.
There's also a theory for Breath of the Wild that somehow the Great Plateau and Lost Woods switched places somehow (which makes more sense after Tears of the Kingdom came out,) but that being said, if entire bodies of land, water and mountains can all just swap places periodically in such a radical manner, then the maps between Zelda games no longer have to line up right because the geography can just violently shift whenever it needs to.
But the idea is that a volcano, a mountain range and a desert do not shift that easily! So the fun part is pinpointing those elements and triangulating the location of elements from there. To see what has remained in the same place between games, and what has radically shifted. A lot of times these matching locations are backed by the lore, giving a cool perspective into the world of the games
There is a theory that botw and totk play so far in the future of the other games that some events literaly repeat themselves [for example in totk when ganondorf pledges allegiance to the king of hyrule, only to betray him afterwards {twinrova is present too}].
@@beatemeyer1242 I've heard that and fully subscribed to it already, it's objectively true and you can't change my mind, but I didn't notice his mom(s) though
Blame it on plate tectonics.
@@cameron-yo6zp its very hard to notice them since the only hint you get is their names being written in hylian on their clothes [atleast thats what i heard]
One thing to keep in mind is that botw's map made deliberate decisions to change the map (pretty late in development at that) because they thought it would be better for gameplay. There is a longstanding theory about the great plateau and the Lost woods changing places, but we know for a fact they decided to swap the The lost woods and Kakariko.
Thus, originally, the lost woods would be far more southeast, like in most games, while kakariko would have been at the base of death mountain, like in most games not in the downfall timeline.
Sauce?
For anyone looking for a source, here's a segment of an interview with developer Manabu Takehara:
"Actually, from the early days of the game’s development to around the middle stages Kakariko Village and the Korok Forest’s locations were swapped. As development progressed and the story’s details became more precise, and as the game itself began to come together, I began to feel that the two locations were out of place. That being said, I consulted with the landscape lead about switching the two around and was met with a quick ‘certainly!’ Immediately after we went to the director."
The rest of the segment just talks about how the rest of the team accepted it
@kattowo_8516 I'm so confused. I replied at least twice with a link to the Nintendo Everything article about the interview and they both never showed up...
@@josiaharaki7310
Links in the comment are weird, sometimes they dont show up, I guess?
I've always chocked up the weird scaling and slightly different placements to the second word in the title of every game. It's a legend. We're playing through stories that have probably been told via word of mouth for eons. That's why we have different art styles too.
Before Ocarina of Time, the Master Sword was used to seal the way to the Sacred Realm/ Triforce. That's why it wasn't an option in Minish Cap and Minish Cap's backstory.
My theory about Zora's domain being in the north in Twilight Princess is that they moved to another location after some prior invasion. Kakariko has a river on the south end of town, which lines up ok with OoT, and they have the zora graveyard there as well, which I think indicates the zora previously had more of a presence in southern Hyrule than they did during TP.
That was some of the most fun I’ve have with a gaming theory video in a long time! A really like the balance you struck between serious analysis and speculation, and just saying “Fuck it, we’re working with 30 years of history and Nintendo’s only cared about it for maybe 10 of those years.” You were honest about occasionally stretching the facts to come to a conclusion, and still came out of it with a fairly believable interpretation of what happened and how it works!
I'm very glad you enjoyed it.
And I also want to really thank you for being so specific with your compliment. It's one thing to say "gud vid, man", but it means a lot more when someone takes the time to call out specific parts of something you're proud of! So, thanks for that!
Espeiclly since the streches are explaiend reasonable.
For example the loading screens: It is much more reasonable to "cheat" here than to make some sort of "fact-based" pixel analysis.
Without loading screens and similar imagination based additions, the kingdom would be too small, there would be no toiletes, not enough food, and the day/night circle wouldn't make sense if you don't assume that the thigns we see are a temporary cut of Link's quest throughout Hyrule, focusing on the action moments. This would also explain when Link is resting during his journey.
Only with gmae such as BOTW which allow more details, we are also allowed to follow more details on the adventure. And here we go, who doesn't remember the large ways upwards from one action point to another with nothing happening but time passing, all skiped in OOT, TP, etc.
Just the toiletes are stil missing and I won't complain over that sort of details.
@@brosephlacasquevtubergud vid, man 👍
@brosephlacasquevtuber I loved the video! Just two things to consider:
At the end of SS, Fi says the Master Sword must be sealed to destroy Demise's evil thoughts. I think it's likely it wasn't finished with that in Minish Cap, hence the need for the Picori blade.
Also, if you disregard Hyrule Historia's (ridiculous) placement of FSA behind TP and put it in its *actual* spot, after FS in a timeline parallel to OoT (same Ganondorf, not a new one) and before ALttP, then it fits *perfectly* with ALttP's map.
You’re correct on the Zelda 2 coastline but off on the scale. Extend the bottom on the map to the bottom of the BotW map and you’re closer. Zelda 1 map is from kakariko downward. You can overlay the maps more easily by the double lakes with the angled river which feeds into it (passing through the twin peaks area, which the area where boulders fall on link in zelda 1. Graveyard corresponds with river of the dead on the plateau. The similarity was something I noticed when BotW first came out since zelda 1 is my favorite of the series. 😊
One thing that you shouldn't forget, you can rotate the maps to make things line up easier.
You: 🤡
@@theendofthestart8179 Lol
@@theendofthestart8179why ?
Yeah, I was surprised at how much and how little research was done on this 😅
@@theendofthestart8179have you forgotten how common it is for maps to be upside down in the past you blubbering foot fungus
its hard not to understate how well done this video is??? NEVER IMAGINED THERE WOULD BE A SINGLE HUMAN TO BE ABLE TO HAVE BEEN SUCH A ZELDA FAN AND FANATIC TO HAVE MADE a video this detailed, deep, and well made??? you have my respect.
Thank you!!! That means a lot! Glad you enjoyed!
Absolutely phenomenal video, it feels like you've done what no one else could with this one. Inaccurate cartography, real life ecological shifts and the the canonical different regions like Lesser Hyrule make combining the maps appear obvious in hindsight. You did a great job.
Some extra thoughts
1. Though it doesn't satisfy the part of our brain that makes connections, the disappearance or movement of massive landmarks like bridges buildings and rivers could simply be explained by magic/technology. Mount Hebra has a massive chunk blown out from what was likely a single laser blast. And whats more elusive than a Lost Wood you can't get out of? A Lost Wood you can't even find.
2. Real life empires shifted territory and changed definition all the time. Just look at the complex history of the Roman Empire. What Minish Cap link conceptualized as Hyrules borders would be completely different from another link.
3. The New Hyrule founded in Spirit tracks might be Northern Hyrule from Adventure of Link.
I'm really glad you enjoyed the video. Also glad I manage to get you on board with my reasoning.
I did consider looking at Tri Force Heroes' Hytopia and Spirit Tracks' New Hyrule to compare them to North Hyrule given how they're both stated to be North of Hyrule, but the video got long enough as it is, and I didn't want to have to deal with that lol.
It'd be cool to see a Part 2 on that.
Wow, the editing of this is ON POINT! All the footage matched so well!
3:58 "The next point could ruffle some feathers" starts a clip of Revali where his expressions seamlessly match the sentences in the script.
0:40 "[Mapping] feels like an impossible task" shows a clip of Zelda losing hope at the Spring of Power.
3:32 "Landmarks set in stone" is added by a clip of the unearthing of Vah Rudania.
9:26 "Circling around to the Great Plateau ... use as a springboard to the rest of the series" circles the camera around Link looking over the Great Plateau, which is a springboard into the rest of the game.
It's all so detailed! I was sold before you even started your theory. Good humour, good timing and a solid theory on top. Seems like the algorithm picked you up on this one. Hope it gives you some well deserved recognition! I'll definitely check out some of your other videos, for one.
Not sure if someone else has stated this before, but the swamp region in Minish Cap is named "Tabanta" in basically all versions but English afaik. I know you said you wouldnt count names as set in stone but the geographical placement of it and Mt. Gongol is really close to the Tabantha and Hebra region in BOTW, so that's something I always keep in mind when trying to pin where MC's map is.
In any case, great video. Hope you continue doing things like this.
Yeah but then you also have the crenel hills east of hyrule castle
@@TLcool4t Crenel had no reason not to be a chain, given the game takes place after Skyward Sword in regions in between its map, also that it’s volcanic and probably flipped way round given there are actual “loading zones” between east and west in tMC
Edit: Mt Crenel being volcanic means there is a very good chance it’s part of a system with eldin/death mtn probably cause by north and south Hyrule’s tectonics
@@incognitoman3656 There's another mountain that's part of this hypothetical range: the Xera Cascade (Veil Falls in MC, Veiled Falls in ENG BOTW). In BOTW it is part of the mountain range of Lanayru and east of Mt. Crenel/Gongol.
I think it is pretty reasonable to think that part of Lesser Hyrule is where Minish Cap is set, with Tabanta being the only region of that game that's actually farther in distance compared to the others.
However it doesn't match with OOT's Castle and BOTW's Temple of Time being the place where Hyrule was born but... what if the Civil War in OOT was more of a unification war between Lesser Hyrule and OOT's Hyrule?
@@JDQuote Not only does this back up the map weirdness and my theory, it makes so much sense for OoT’s civil war. What do you think about it being tectonics (given Death mtn and the lava room in Crenel)?
@@JDQuote that makes a lot of sense, the OoT Civil War being a dynastic dispute between Old and Lesser Hyrule. It even helps cover why Ganondorf would be sneaky but also want to take Hyrule. They just recently took possession of a huge, prosperous swath of territory, the kingdom itself is weak but it's military is almost certainly quite strong, being veterans of the war. That way Lesser Hyrule plays almost no part in OoT, but it's an established country prepared to fight back against Ganon.
Although you left a lot of loose ends, you’re aware of this & this is definitely a breakthrough for piecing this all together. Good job!
I think he did a pretty good job considering the developers don't try to make the maps lineup so he's ice skating uphill.
something i wanted to point out that i learned recently, "hebra" isnt a new region name botw came up with! in the japanese and korean versions of a link to the past and a link between worlds, death mountain is only named such in the dark world/lorule, and its called mount hebra in hyrule.
it doesnt really debunk anything said in this video given that names of geographical locations change all the time, and i can imagine hylians adopting the moniker "death mountain" for the active volcanic region where ganon resided in the first zelda, what's more important is that the volcanic mountain region is generally north/northeast in nearly every game its in. just a fun fact about the origins of the name of the hebra region in botw!
I think the mountains/mountain range being in the north/northeast is because you don't want a mountain to be in front of the whole map (south), so you put it in the back. Also, since Hyrule has the ocean surrounding it in the north and the east, the tectonic plate on which is greater Hyrule would lead to the formation of mountains and rivers on tectonic plates broders, in this case mountains.
@@guizmo_unicorn I really love this idea of a tectonic plate rotating under Hyrule, especially with the volcanic activity we see in the depths under Hebra in ToTK. The "death mountain hotspot" could have started in the east and moved west in the same way the Yellowstone hotspot moved through Nevada and Idaho into Wyoming.
Here's something huge with map lore as well, that Elder Scrolls has touched on... all distances are interpretations. Towns can have hundreds of people, even though you may see 3 people. The building count, number of footsteps, all is story telling device that the canon lore does not have to match.
Oh yeah botw and totk definitely have scailing done especially for the height of stuff, like using in game units mount hebra would not actually be that big of a mountain but its safe to assume its actually much bigger then it is in game cause 1. That would be a pain to nake a acute mountain and 2. It would porvbly not be that fun anyways just more tedious
I have to admit this whole video theory was amazing. I was blown away when you showed how Twilight Princess' temple of time (and the surrounding ruins) actually ligns up with its location on the great plateau, in other words "old Hyrule". It may seem obvious but as someone who has only ever played the Wii version (which is mirrored) I never realized that.
For the lost woods moving, in The Wind Waker, The Great Deku Tree had the koroks of forest haven spread the seeds of The Great Deku Tree. That could explain the moving of the lost woods, with the power of The Great Deku Tree, creates a forest around itself. Which, with the magic The Great Deku Tree has going through the roots of the forest creates the lost woods
My headcanon is that the Lost Woods itself is lost and so it just kinda... moves around?
Fits with its reality breaking mechanics imo.
Idk I just think it's funny.
Considering its a magical forest, I feel like it fits that it just randomly wanders around the world. I love to think that it isn't a gradual move but that it just magically appears in new locations every so often to keep everything extra safe
@@warriorlizard7246
Not even to keep shit safe, just to fuck with people 😂
The lost woods are whatever woods surround a/the Deku Tree. But a new Deku Tree sprout could hypothetically be grown in any location, so the Lost Woods can be replanted anywhere a tree can grow.
22:20 - Plus, Downfall means Ganon won. So uh... I wouldn't be shocked if there was some supernatural desertification going on
Regarding the Minish Cap and Four Swords, those were actually done by Capcom, so their canonization is debatable, as for FS Adventures, while it was done by Nintendo, it was vastly changed from what it was supposed to be. It was supposed to be about the Imprisoning War that was before ALTTP in the Downfall Timeline, the PCs where supposed to be four knights helping in it, but Miyamoto meddled (in what he is now becoming infamous for) and forced the staff to rapidly change that and we got what it is now, so it’s canon is also pretty debatable, I think they just slapped that on the official timeline just to appease Miyamoto and not upset him.
I am aware there has been some debate about the timeline placement of the Four Sword-related games. But I'm just taking Nintendo at there word on this one and counting them and where they sit on the official timeline as canon. I went on for a half hour as it is, I didn't exactly have room to challenge the "word of god" on this one.
The Tabantha Frontier region is literally named after a location *in* the Minish Cap. It's pretty safe to say it's canon.
Big disagree on this one. None of the Zelda games canonicity is "debatable". If it's The Legend of Zelda™, it's canon.
What you can debate are side games like Crossbow Training, Tingle or Age of Calamity.
Aw man, that original idea before Miyamoto’s changes sounds really interesting! I wish we could’ve got that game.
@@angelo8606Great, now we need to figure out the placement of Wand of Gamelon, Faces of Evil, and Zelda's Adventure.
* grumble grumble *
The compass in Four Swords does not point North. Rotate the map 90 degrees to the left, and it lines up just fine in the west.
A lot of historical kings had multiple castles (heck, the British monarchs still do), so it's not out of the question that there might be two or even three "Hyrule castles" in use at the same time, especially if the term "Hyrule Castle" is taken not to refer to a specific castle, but whichever castle the Hyrulean royals happened to be staying in at the time (kind of like Air Force One being whatever airplane happens to have the President of the United States on board).
I had no idea about that Air Force One factoid lol I thought it was the actual name of one specific plane lol
Ok, I hope you read this as I have some additional points that can strengthen the points made in your video:
1) Regarding Lake Hylia in OOT
I think this is a scaling issue with the map rather than placement as in BOTW there are a number of lakes already present, so it is possible lake Hylia was absorbed into the ocean, however I think its more than likely a scaling issue if anything (the scientist could have used salt water taken from the ocean to fill his lab up, not to mention that Lake hylia is literally surrounded by forest in OOT, so what ever is beyond said forested area probably lines up well with BOTW)
2) regarding TP Bridge placement
The bridge in TP is already decaying, and I think that at some point it was taken down, destroyed by conflict, or just completely eroded. In real life there are a plethora of forgotten roads that just decay to time so I can see the same thing happening to bridges, especially when wars are concerned as they are key targets. If anything its likely that the architecture/style of Hylian buildings is relatively consistent and they just built a new one at some point.
3) Regarding Death Mountain in OOT
Although in game Death mountain at the base of kakariko, I think this is a scaling issue as well, but specifically due to hardware limitations at the time; the plateau / kingdom of Hyrule in OOT is more than likely a bit bigger than is portrayed in game. I could see Kakariko being a bit more removed from the actual castle town, and the road to death mountain being a bit longer. One thing also to consider is the fact that the volcano is active - its possible that at times volcanos blow and then become dormant, being more like a mountain, with the Gorons relocating to the active volcano since thats what their habitat is. This could also explain why the people of kakariko move and of course still name their town kakariko.
4) Regarding forest migration
I think the Deku tree might have a sort of direct connection to all of the trees in its surrounded forest, allowing it to migrate, and as its root s grow also become bigger, with parts of the Deku tree controlled forest becoming separated over time forming their own forests. Not to mention forest migration is a natural phenomenon as is with wars and natural disasters, however the existence of the Deku tree reinforces any and all changes to forest areas as being something completely reasonable. Also of note - the deku tree and koroks/kokiri aren't necessarily known for being very open to outsiders so their absence in other games is consistent with their character.
5) regarding Four swords: adventures
The map is more of a menu screen than a map; I don't count it as an actual 'map' as compared to all other games. not to meniton it functions like that in game.
6) Regarding Four swords map
A square map vs a sphere map has placement differences when converted between the two; so, at best I think this is sort of a space issue; sort of like whoever made the map (let's assume all maps have some sort of in game source like Tingle for instance) ran out of room, or perhaps intentionally compressed the map in order to save on space / fit onto one piece of paper.
7) Regaridng Great & lesser Hyrule and the issue of the 4 swords and Master Sword:
I think Minish cap establishes a few things:
a) knowledge of the triforce and master sword were successfully kept a secret post SS in order to prevent anyone trying to take them (sort of similar logic as to why you don't tell people you have something worth a lot of money, you know someone is going to try and take it from you, so its best just to keep a secret as much as possible). Do keep in mind that that was Zelda's ultimate goal at the end of SS, not necessarily to build a kingdom, which obviously came later.
b) the existance of lesser and greater hyrule existed relatively early on because people do migrate, populations change for a variety of reasons like war, famine, opportunity, natural disasters, etc. Keep in mind too that the internet doesn't exist in hyrule, so knowledge of the triforce is probably almost non existant in lesser hyrule except for a few royal family members (and of course since the 4 swords is more local than the triforce and master sword, its a more convenient resource to rely on for the hero).
As an extra observation it must be stated that magic in the zelda universe is in no way static; it quite literally allows for a variety of hard and soft magic, meaning that discrepancies regarding items, people's ability to use them, magic/sacred locations are all easily explained by the diverse magic system present throughout the zelda universe. So its no surprise that other magic swords exist, that other magic musical instruments exist, that temples are remodeled and rebuilt and therefore have different magical properties - or - magic properties that were rediscovered later on down the line. The maps never really bothered me too much because at the end of the day it is hyrule we're dealing with, all creatures in the zelda universe exist and sometimes do or don't make an appearance due to the locations relevant to the game.
Great video, I agree completely, and I hope to see more content!
alright, now i have to go back to doing my homework.
Maybe the weird migrational thing can be explained by the "Old Hyrule" location being initially decided to not be settled upon due to being considered sacred, but somewhere between the FS games and OoT prople decided "hey actually let's move to where our civilisation actually started to be maybe it'll get us closer to the gods"
And if you put in the Minish Cap map on a diagonal angle compared to LttP's, Mt. Crenel lines up closer to Death Mountain
10:20
Hyrule Historia: the Temple of Time was built over the Sealed Temple
BotW: The Sealed Temple is at the bottom of a canyon nowhere near the Plateau
TotK: There’s 2 Temples of Time, actually
on Deku tree placement: if I remember correctly, in Windwaker there was a late game side quest where you needed to plant a deku seed on some island, and then bring the water from specific water source to that place (limited time, no fast travel) and water the seed, which would cause a new Deku Tree to start growing. This allows to hypothesize that Deku Tree location is not permanent, and the Kokiri Forest is just any forest that happens to grow around it. The buildings in Kokiri Village in OoT, mind you, were just carved into and built around the trees and stumps, these won't leave a trace when the kokiri move out. Also interesting fact brought to attention in Tears of the Kingdom, the existence of Lost Woods might be a defence mechanism of Deku Tree, In BotW it was just a puzzle to navigate it correctly, but in TotK the fog is altered and it is absolutely impossible to navigate Lost Woods until a specific action is performed on the Deku tree, and then the fog goes back to normal. So Lost Woods aren't permanent either.
Can't there only be one deku tree though? We've only ever seen one at a time, in OoT a sprout grows from the dead one. In WW we help save the deku tree sprouts but does only the strongest become the next deku tree after the father dies? In TotK we see more cherry blossom trees that the deku tree is, the only other one in BotW is at Satori Mountain so are there more sprouts growing trying to compete? Many questions yet to be answered.
@@dominicmoisant8393 i never noticed that the deku tree was a cherry blossem! maybe the koroks/kokiri decide which one becomes a deku? it makes sense to me
As someone who HAS worked on and with some of the best maps in the world imo (I was a cartographer for the Ordnance Survey for nearly 5 years) there is a LOT of squishing and distortion going on with all maps, especially around roads to make them legible, and to make sure the scale is readable. It's called Generalisation.
Wow the algorithm is on point for me lately.
A few points: I fully agree with stretching the maps to fit BoTW/ToTK.
The four sword games take place in the ‘dark’ realm. Before ganandof corrupted the sacred realm. The fact the shrine is only accessed in the dark realm in a link to the past is a major point to ignore.
There is some evidence that the great plateau was moved at some point. Might be worth looking at.
The lost woods always forms around a great deku tree. Judging by the scattered Sakura trees in tears, there is always a chance for a new tree to develop but only one can be THE tree at a time.
Lake hylia in OOT being salt water is an idea I hadn’t considered and actually makes a lot of sense.
The idea of greater and lesser PLUS old and new is genius and I hope more people adopt it
There's something inherently sad about the Zelda World. It's a world frozen in time thousands of years pass between every game but the world very rarely progresses grows or advances, when technology like the Sheikah stuff is created its short lived and ultimately fades away again.
Every time the world begins to grow Calamity arrives once more to set everything back to square one.
Yeah, whenever Hyrule falls it comes back again in a different form, and no matter how technologically advanced the civilization gets Hyrule remains a medieval-esque Kingdom
My head canon is that after the Skyloftians return to the surface, with the Triforce, the first person after the end of Skyward Sword to make a wish on the Triforce (before they sealed the Triforce away in the sacred realm and everything) wished for an "eternal kingdom" - and so the Triforce created Hyrule and made it perpetual, and that guy becomes the first king of Hyrule etc
No evidence of any of that in games, it's a part of the Zelda timeline that hasn't been explored in any way whatsoever. It's just my head canon to explain the seemingly cyclic nature of Hyrule
The lengthens that people go through to make sense of their favorite franchise is astounding.
I’m proud to be an astounding member of this group. Game, lore, maps, and familial relationships.
Great video! Your analysis is amazing, great work! My take away from seeing all this: The Zelda developers are so confident in their IP that they don't need to be 100% consistent between games. The best game series offer variants on a theme. The developers here clearly have a theme, but don't fall into the trap of constraining themselves to it. So nice job on discovering the theme :)
My favorite part of this entire extensive in-depth video, was when you made another reference to liking swamps turning to deserts and used different footage from Link Between Worlds to make the same point look twice as strong. You not only had me rolling on the floor, but also provided more evidence for your theory. Wow.
I had near this exact theory when Twilight Princess came out, at least about the physical relationship between Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time being pivoted around "The Master Sword didn't move" and then extrapolating that there's a much larger Hyrule that each game only takes place in part of. My theory at the time that I never fully teases out was that the rivers were how all the maps fit together
This video is a GODSEND! I saw the length and figured id tune in for a couple minutes but your cadence and humor and brilliant tenacity with making this map work logically kept here til the end! Great work, such a unique experience esp for zelda theorist vids which either take leaps too big or are afraid to have any wiggle room (like you did with the loading screens)
19:54 and they are the setting for the 3 greatest Zelda games ever
This was a great video, I'm glad the algorithm recommended it and was surprised that it was from a smaller channel, hopefully it will recommended it to a lot more people
Minish Cap map location being Lesser Hyrule makes lots of sense if you move Minish Cap to the end with the Four Sword games.
The ONLY detail I have to bring up to break this:
*The Sealed Grounds/Goddess Temple from Skyward Sword is the SAME Temple in BotW/TotK in Tanagar Canyon... the "Forgotten Temple"? The LARGEST Goddess Statue? The "MOTHER GODDESS STATUE".???*
not to mention that the great plateau is not castle town either XD
THAT FUCKING THEORY IS DEADER THAN THE QUEEN
I'm not so sure. It was definitely used as a design reference, and it is a common theory, but I don't think it's stated in any official sources to be the case.
Direct quote from "Creating a Champion":
"The Forgotten Temple was constructed in order to keep a record of the heroes throughout history who aided the royal family of Hyrule in the countless ancient battles against Ganon, who unleashed the Calamity on a recovering world."
Nowhere does it imply it's the Sealed Temple. Unlike OoT's Temple of Time.
Besides, moving the Faron region all the way up there bends the map scaling farther than I am comfortable with. (And as you've seen, I can be comfortable with a lot)
@@MikePhantom
The ruins on the Great Plateau ARE actually said to be based on the Town from Ocarina of Time's Castle Town though?
(In the BotW book, Creating a Champion.)
The Ruins were in fact designed to reflect the Town. The "Eastern Abbey Ruins" are the ruins of OoT's Temple of Time.
The pathway behind the castle that Child Link runs through past a Guard are situated next to a skull camp.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber
In that same book, they highlight the Forgotten Temple, the Goddess Springs, AND Lanayru Promenade as dating back to Skyward Sword's Hylians. These locations are the ONLY Places in BotW/TotK's Hyrule with imagery depicting Loftwing designs.
Besides, the newest Zelda games erased the timeline entirely.
Have Fun knowing that. 👋
@@gabriellockwood2780I doubt that the entire history of hyrule was erased. The zonai ruins in Faron are said to be older that the sky islands and this version of hyrule. And In between skyward sword and totk’s past the zonai had to evolve, same with the other species. And remember the springs of power, wisdom, and courage and the loft wing symbols still exist so I think they’re still cannon. And let’s not forget that there are multiple kingdoms in hyrule, the kingdom of hyrule being more an alliance of the land of hyrule. The Zoras and gerudo have their own kings, etc. This current kingdom could have started under Raru, but doesn’t mean it was the first hyrule kingdom, considered that the landmass/ continent is referred to as hyrule. Think the Holy Roman Empire, which is not even Roman or located in Rome, but took the name of Rome. Or the Russian Tsar/Tzar/Czar taking its name from Caesar of Rome.
All of this makes so much sense. The only thing I personally don’t like is that if LttP only takes place in Lesser Hyrue then my own theory of at least some of the Dark World Palaces don’t line up with the OoT Temples anymore . Since a lot of them wouldn’t be in the same area. Turtle Rock snd the Fire Palace would still match. But the Spirit Temple and Missery Mire or Shadow Temple and Thief Town would be in different locations. As would Water/Lakebed Temple and Ice Palace or Forest Temple and Skull Woods
For anyone interested, Monster Maze has an amazing 4 part video series on 'The evolution of Hyrule'. Its map specifically over the many games and he theorizes how all its changes came to be over time. I really recommend it
Did he finish that mini-series yet? Because I faintly remember him saying that he wouldn't do the last part until TotK released;of course this was a few years ago so maybe my memory's betraying me atm.
@@abuttnugget6753 I just checked, he has all 4 parts released.
I think the lost woods moves with the Deku Tree. In ocarina of time, the Deku Tree dies but a sapling deku starts growing right next to it. I think that when the Deku Tree dies, it's possible for the koroks/children of the woods to transport the sapling to a new location for whatever reason
So glad to see this conversation happening.
A few things:
I personally like the theory that the sealed temple is the forgotten temple. That doesn't really fit in your model and I think there is allot of proof for it.
I also like the theory that castletown (and most of the OOT map) is the great plateau. The abbey is the old castle. The mount is the old death mountain. River of the dead is old kakariko village and spirit temple.
I assume that these games' maps aren't always to scale with what you'd expect in universe. BOTW's map may be leagues bigger than Ocarina's, but I wouldn't necessarily say that Ocarina takes place over so much less ground throughout Hyrule. It's a better explanation than loading zones IMO.
That was a great video, watched it all the way though. I was around and playing Zelda 1 when it was the only Zelda game so I enjoyed that you included the NES games. And I played through the entire franchise so this all hit home. I wish I had something to add as far as the map, but all I can say is thank you for making such a thoughtful video. Best of luck on your adventures. Subbed.
Thank you very much! This means a lot!
I'm terribly sorry for saying this, but it's right from the heart. Your unprofessionalism and your tendency to embrace loose ends, I find them all to be amusing and entertaining. This series is inconsistent after all, and the fact that you acknowledge it is reassuring, since a lot of die hard zelda fans are not. I also love your way of explaining things lol, feels like a fun discussion rather than tutoring, keep up the good work!
Wow, you did an absolutely amazing job taking everything into account in this video, from loading zones to bringing in real life factors, to even just saying when you think you could be stretching something.
A few things I have to say is when you where discussing about OOT’s lake Hylia being over the ocean, I was just like Dude, just move it up a bit and it’s right over BOTW’s Lake Hylia, and even matches into account the border of SS’s “grass region” (didn’t know the name), but, it plays with the fact by where you placed TP’s map, lake Hylia’s Bridge would now be just a suspension bridge.
There where also multiple times where I thought you would just flip the map horizontally, or vertically and a lot of the 2d maps you struggled with might have fit a lot better.
Amazing video anyways!
I think there was one guy who made a timeline theory that put Zeldas 1 and 2 in the Wind Waker timeline, because new Hyrule lines up with lesser Hyrule. New Hyrule could be East Hyrule. I checked the two maps, Don't line up that well, but New Hyrule does line up with Lesser Hyrule. IDK, just passing on an idea I heard from elsewhere.
0:01 What’s a Zelda?
Things that matter in TotK:
-The Eastern Abbey is the remains of the castle from King Rauru's reign. Someone online triangulated it by the position of the Zonai ToT and analyzing the layout of both buildings, and further supported by the second point. In fact, it might even be the same castle from OoT, given the Hylian Temple of Time's proximity!
-Breath of the Wild's Hyrule Castle has existed for somewhere over 10,000 years. If Rauru Castle is the same castle as OoT, that has... _implications._
I love cartography explorations, both real and fictional. Thank you for putting so much thought into this.
I really appreciated the way you chose to select your fixed points, in the absence of things like defined tectonic plates (though you kinda get one with your geothermal energy region).
The thing about the great plato being the birth of hyrule is that the old man could have been referring to the rarru hyrule which isn’t the first hyrule meaning skyward sword doesn’t even need to fit there
Here's a crazy idea. Lorule is a land without its Triforce. Not only is the master sword nowhere to be found in Minish Cap and Four Swords, neither is Ganondorf. The swamp area overlapping with the desert is another clear connection. I think the Picori Blade is Lorules master sword. That's why there isn't a single destined hero, the green one may be link, but the red blue and purple incarnations could very well just as easily have their own names. Purple link is Ravio.
Note 1: you could make the argument that lake hylia is the ocean. I just don’t know why you would when lake hylia is in botw anyways. It’s in a good place too, just south of the plateau.
Note 2: ocarina of time itself implies that the lost woods is somewhat of a spacial anomaly. It creates shortcuts to both death mountain and zora’s river through tunnels and pools. Personally I’ve always interpreted the Lost Woods as it’s own pocket dimension created out of “mysterious wood mysticality” and it can simply be accessed from certain gateways in certain forests. In ocarina of time, those gateways open in forests in the Faron region (unnamed in that game) as well as a few other select locations. In Twilight Princess, it has gateways to both the Faron region and the Temple of Time. In botw the lost woods just happens to have a gateway in the north. So whilst you could argue the forest just changes over time, you could also say that the lost woods is magic. Additionally cloud based spacial manipulation we see in botw’s lost woods also might explain how the cloud barriers work in ss, as well as the cloud portals the dragons use in botw (as well as certain things in totk)
Note 3: this is a controversial opinion but I personally hate FSa’s timeline placement. I actually really wanted to make a map analysis to find a different timeline placement for FSa. Personally I think the FS trilogy comes consecutively after each other (perhaps in a parallel timeline to other games since there’s so many similarities (picori blade = parallel master sword, lightforce = parallel triforce)) because I simply don’t understand why FSA is so far away from the other two. And why are the gerudo back and why would they have another king named after Hyrule’s latest dictator?? It doesn’t make sense to me. Also btw it is perfectly fine to handwave the “official” sources, bc it is mostly fanservice and subject to change. I’m pretty sure one of the books say that the timeline is more for the convenience and up to interpretation for the player. So don’t limit yourself to the timeline if it sucks.
Note 4: alongside natural forests and water bodies changing, as well as human relocation, you forgot a third way locations can move. Gods themselves can simply pick up land masses and yeet them into the sky!
But in general, this is a good fucking video, nice job!! The map placement definitely needs to be talked more especially amongst timeline theorists. Really insightful stuff!!
Soooo…smaaall problem. The Sealed Temple from Skyward Sword isn’t the location of the Temple of Time in t/BOTW. It is clearly stated (I believe in Creating a Champion), that the Sealed Temple became BOTW’s Forgotten Temple…you know where you get the Tunic of the Wild in BOTW. It has the oldest Goddess Staute (which checks out with Skyward Sword) and the tree Link plants in Skyward Sword to the left of the statue is still there in BOTW, growing through the wall. The structure has been buried into a canyon and rebuilt a lot of hundreds of thousands of years, but it’s still there
Well, its a small problem with an easy solution with Tears of the Kingdom in place (if you like the teory that places the past between Skyward Sword and Minish Cap). Prob. the new Hylia temple was where the triforce and the sword was maintained, maybe like relics but without knowing the real power of them. Thats why the sword and the Triforce dont appear in Minish Cap. Prob. between Minish Cap and Ocarina of Time was something that makes the triforce remembered and wanted, and thats why it was moved with the sword to the new Temple of Time, keeping them protected from the devil of that time.
Direct quote from "Creating a Champion":
"The Forgotten Temple was constructed in order to keep a record of the heroes throughout history who aided the royal family of Hyrule in the countless ancient battles against Ganon, who unleashed the Calamity on a recovering world.
The original concept for the temple was that it had been abandoned for so long that it had faded from people's memories. At the beginning of development, the canyon was so deeply tied to the royal family that it was called the "Valley of the Royal Family". As with everywhere throughout Hyrule, the Guardians here are possessed by Ganon, but rather than having invaded the temple from Hyrule Castle during the Great Calamity, they were placed here long ago to protect the facility.
Since it is a building that represents Hyrule's ancient past, the design incorporates construction elements from Skyward Sword in a similar way to the Springs of Wisdom, Courage, and Power, as well as Lanayru Road."
While it does say it took design inspiration from Skyward Sword (hence the cute tree reference probably), it never outright says the Forgotten Temple is the same as the Sealed Temple. Rather, this makes it seem to be a relic from the first Great Calamity where the Sheikah used the Guardians.
The Sealed Temple connection may have been stated elsewhere, IDK. But moreso I've just seen it as a very prolific fan theory. Besides, moving the Faron region up there bends the geography a bit more than I'm comfortable with (and as you've seen, I can be comfortable with quite a bit). But TotK has also been getting me to question the Old Man's "birthplace of Hyrule" statement, so IDK.
Thanks for the input tho :)
Good old TOTK, making us question what we thought were fundamental facts of Hyrule’s founding
@@carlesmeseguer8089the rito didn't exist back then so i personally think it is (better option) after hyrule was forgotten after hundreds of years of war and rauru simply refounded hyrule or (worse option) another timeline split because zelda went to the past
@@BakerBones I have seen that theory and its quite a good one, and it might explain quite a lot of things
A cool concept for the lost woods is if the great deku tree could somehow move, and maybe adapts wherever he goes to the become the lost woods.
The thing that gets me is that the remains of Lon Lon Ranch are in Hyrule field in BoTW, so unless they moved the ranch and rebuilt it as a perfect replica, then idk what to make of that
absolutely lovely video! would love to see this retackled with the new context of totk's ancient hyrule.
without getting too into spoilers, im a firm believer in Pre-Skyward Sword placement! for the memories, not the whole game, obvs. but quick rundown on why: lack of MS and hero incarnation (as far as we know) makes it exceptionally odd to be placed otherwise, as those conventions are established within SS. justification for demise? he's a phantom, akin to calamity ganon. an echo of the First. we know for a fact that seals will weaken, and his essence will coagulate into new forms, instead of simply just breaking the seal. as old as the franchise itself, with the Wizard, Agahnim, etc. seals upon seals, kingdoms built upon kingdoms.
Thank you! I'm super glad you liked it!
I may make a follow-up TotK video at some point, but I'm still figuring out the timeline implications myself. I also haven't finished the game as of yet (although I have collected all the tears, so I am mostly up-to-date on the past stuff).
Right now I'm more in the post-timeline re-founding camp than the pre-SS or post-SS-pre-MC/OoT groups. Mostly because the complete and total lack of Triforce, when almost all of the early-timeline conflict is Triforce-centric is super weird to me. Not just SS and OoT, but the Demise War and Interloper War as well.
Although I do get heavy Demise vibes from Big G's Demon King form in TotK, the objects of their motivations just don't line up. Like, OoT Ganon wanted to use the Triforce to rule Hyrule, so Agahnim took steps to break the seal so he could do just that. So why would Demise be after the Triforce when this TotK Ganon (presumably) had no concept of what that was? Following the Agahnim logic, Demise's goal should have been removing Raru's seal and collecting more Infinity Stones.
Also, LttP Ganon seemed to know everything Agahnim knew. It seems like Ganon experienced all of Agahnim's actions as a projection of himself. But the Dehydrated Boi wakes up knowing only what Raru told him. If Demise was a projection of that Ganondorf, with all of his intellect and such being shared and seeming to remain intact, why would he not recognize the Sword his nemesis built specifically for him and which he, himself, as Demise, seems to have wielded a sword that was a counterpart of sorts to it? Instead he has to ask "Is that the 'Sword That Seals the Darkness'?" But it would make more sense for him to not recognize it if the only projections of himself he had ever manifested were of his blind anger and calamitous desire for destruction like we see in BotW.
Long response I know, and I could have gone longer in explaining where I currently stand, but maybe a comment section on a non-TotK theory video isn't the right place to debate this, lol. I don't really mean to directly attack you or your theory or anything. I'm just trying to work through what to believe, myself.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber dont worry at all, i didnt perceive it as an attack at all!!! this is what i wanted, actually!
criticism and volleying of ideas is valuable and important in theory crafting, so im really happy to hear your insights and ideas!! thank you so much for replying and sharing.
i agree, the lack of triforce makes it very very curious indeed. my justification for that is that it is still hidden, much like the secret stones were, but instead of just physically being hidden away, was also hidden away from everyone, with only a select few even knowing of its existence at all.
this carries forward into demise having different goals from ganondorf the first*, since youre right, he doesnt seem to have any conception of his previous self. which i point to with calamity ganon, rather than agahnim. youre completely right though about agahnim, i just cited him as a thematic parallel, rather than literal, which is my bad. ganon is prone to using puppets, as we've seen.
i figured that since rauru's seal seems to prevent him from seeing his Doppelgangers' actions, that would account for demise's lack of knowledge on secret stones, and pivot to the triforce, which wouldve been discovered in the interim between totk memories and skyward sword.
further on this, theres the origin of zelda's power, and that comes into conflict with what we're shown in totk's memories! sonia has time powers, and rauru has light powers. afaik, hylia is associated with both powers already, so sonia should ALSO have light powers, right? but she doesnt, as far as we know. further, we also know that sonia and rauru have kin, because the royal bloodline persists past both of their deaths unto zelda. SO. my crackpot headcanon/theory? their daughter is hylia. i like to imagine her peeking into the castle during ganondorf's oath of fealty, to parallel OoT.
not gonna pretend ANY of my ideas are at all fact, haha, but i love to speculate!! its so fascinating, the possible story beats we just cant see yet!
Speaking of crackpot theories; we already have an explanation for the Royal Family's powers of light in the rest of the series.
You know those fuzzy people that came down from the sky early in the timeline to assist in establishing Hyrule by bringing a darkness-banishing light that lives within the princess and bestows the Power to Repel Evil (tm) to a magical sword.
You know, the Minish?
The Zonai are Tall Minish.
The Minish even use magical, elemental-themed stones that can manifest copies of warriors to assist the Hero. Except they skipped the sagely middle-man and built that function directly into the sword.
Plus, if you look at Vaati and the Four Sword sanctuary architecture, the eyeball motif is similar to the one the Zonai use (although, eye motifs are nothing new to the series, lol)
That's more of a funny observation that I made rather than something I 100% believe tho. (I only about 30% believe it)
My personal theory that explains the TotK memories is that it's a re-establishment in the Adult Timeline, after a few thousand years of climate change to reduce the sea levels.
It's the only end-of-timeline that leaves ancestral Hyrule vacant enough for the Raru to establish a kingdom.
It has an explanation for the lack of Triforce (washed away by Daphnes' final wish).
It allows all the races present to coexist without having to ask where all the Rito went in OoT (and if there were Rito pre-SS, then why did the Zora have to evolve for there to be Rito in WW? And if there were Zora pre-SS, then are SS's Parella not their ancestor like we thought? And so on...).
It has a definitively dead Ganondorf, leaving a clean break in Demise incarnations for a new Demon King to do his stuff without having to justify a bunch of simultaneous instances of Ganon. And it lets Demise and his curse remain the origin of the Zelda cycle, which I find more narratively satisfying than "Oops! Nope! There was actually another, earlier, even eviler Demon King who is the ACTUAL origin. 100% actually FOR REAL this time, you gotta trust me bro!"
Plus, this removes TotK from the crowded pre-split timeline so it doesn't step on any toes.
(it also gives the Minish time to evolve to be tall, lol)
This also wouldn't be the series' first re-establishment and re-origin of Zelda. Because Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link establishes a tale of Zelda the First... long after SS had the first Zelda. So, even though it's a shoehorned-in retcon, it shows there can be more than one "establishment of the Kingdom of Hyrule".
This still does have its holes tho. If the Triforce was lost in the flood, then how does BotW have the Master Sword, which was also at ground zero of Hyrule's erasure? Although that era's Master Sword isn't present in the TotK memories, so maybe it was only rediscovered by the Sheikah during the First Calamity? (but then why didn't they also find the Triforce? Or maybe they did and that's the plot of the 3rd game???)
But that's where I stand on the matter. Feel free to poke holes so I can re-examine myself and question whether or not I should truly cave in and admit that BotW/TotK are actually a hard reboot that unsatisfyingly retcons the rest of the series into mere legend.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber very good observations and points all around! personally im also against the idea that all previous games are just. Legends now, and not strictly canonical.
with the zonai being tall picori, that DOES make sense! it would explain the lack of other zonai during the memories, as theyre stated to have... disappeared! and in minish cap, we learn that the picori only appear every 100 years through a gateway in hyrule castle's garden, so perhaps rauru and mineru stayed behind, loving hyrule too much, and directly disobeying their cultural traditions.
narratively, im opposed to the idea of Any Game that has Ganondorf or Iterations of Demise's Curse in it post Windwaker, because the whole thesis of it is washing away the sins of the past, and i really do enjoy the idea that they broke the cycle, and just. do their own thing now, hence the weirdness of spirit tracks. but i can be convinced otherwise
to address a point i forgot to address earlier, demise has a Dark Master Sword, but has it BEFORE the goddess sword was forged into the master sword. technically. i mean, at that point in the game, you DO have the master sword, but you forged it through... timey wimey shenanigans. SO. i dont see demise having a weird Dark Sword that looks nearly identical to the master sword as evidence against my theory, BUT it is a good point.
regardless of ANY of our ideas, theories, or conceptions, they seem to all have really... mixed implications and ramifications for the entire series. no matter what answer we seem to come up with, something has to be sacrificed, in a sense. any explanation seems to undermine SOME part of the series, or a core theme/message, and that's... difficult to reconcile. i love this series still, and reconciling all this is super fun! but it isnt easy, thats for sure.
anywho, thanks for taking the time to respond and bounce ideas together with me!!! such a pleasure, cant wait to see more content from you in the future!!
And thank YOU for the civil discussion! I'll definitely take this conversation into consideration if I address TotK in a future video. Although I can't guarantee all my future content will strictly focus on Zelda theories lol.
That said I do have one or two ideas I've been sitting on for a bit. And with this video seeming to get some traction, it might just give me the motivation I need to get to work on them.
Oot map actually fits better than you might think! Lon Lon ranch ruins are in botw/TotK. That means your basically only need to align those two areas to guess the rest. That puts kokiri forest/lost woods more north above the castle, which fits botw where the deku tree is! And even puts gerudo region closer to where it should be.
Edit: the only thing that's majorly wrong then is the location of death mountain, but it will be inconsistent either way so I'd rather choose the option where 80% is correct.
Edit:
I remember seeing someone comment something once about the map of wind waker lining up with the map from twilight princess outset Island is where ordon village is death mountain to death mountain and forest to forest the hyrule from ocorina of time is under the sea as we all know so yeah
The temple of time was actually built over the old Zonai temple of time according to TotK, not the sealed grounds.
I enjoyed this way more than I ever thought I would. I put it as a background noise type of video while putting away laundry and now I’m on the floor, looking at the tv, laundry forgotten about. You have made a surprisingly cohesive solution despite the lack of unified landmarks and/or constant positionment of Hyrule’s general map, I really enjoyed this!
Thanks a whole lot! I'm glad you found it engaging and enjoyable!
Now get back to that laundry! It won't fold itself! lol
Twilight princeses lost woods lines up almost perfectly with the giant tree stump (in tears you get fierce deity here) so I think this is twilight princess lost woods.
I really enjoyed this. I love taking a look at the series as a whole and trying to make connections where there probably aren't any.
One thing I will mention is that it's implied that the Forgotten Temple in Breath of the Wild is the Sealed Temple from Skyward Sword based on the Loftwing statues and genral architecture and layout of the structure and the fact that the single biggest goddess statue in BotW is located there. It' does mess up the idea that OoT's temple of time was located directly over the top of it but as that evidence came from a book I would take evidence that with a pinch of salt. The Books are fine to use for coroberating evidence but if stuff from the games seems to contradict I'd take what the games say over it.
Yeah, that's the biggest point against this. I'm going to address it in a follow up.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber I haven’t played skyward sword, so I don’t know the details of that game, BUT the biggest goddess statue in BotW is not the one in the temple on the great plateau. The biggest one is called the “mother goddess statue” and is located in “the forgotten temple” in the ravine northwest of Hyrule castle. Then in TotK, you can do a quest for the mother goddess statue that upon completing, you will receive the “white sword of the sky” which has the description, “a sword said to have once belonged to a hero from the sky…. blah blah blah”. Not sure of the implications, just throwing this info into the mix, lol.
@ThunderbrandGaming The mother statue is so much smaller than in Skyward sword as that statue was gigantic. It feels like the forgotten temple is a replica or it was supposed to be the sealed temple but got retconned in TOTK since its now Sonia's grave and they added a whole portion to it behind the mother statue that has nothing to do with the sealed temple.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber
in universe, it is possible.. Raudru lied about the location to protect teh real sealed temple, and let it be forgotten
Damn dude. Neat take. I dont think about it that much, but thats why I love videos like this, from those who do. Well done.
So I finished the rest of the video. No I won't make further investigations on how the maps could fit, I think I just head-canon yours. It actually makes sense and pointed a lot of things out, I haven't realized before... for example, that the "Lost Woods" in TP aren't actually the Lost Woods.
(Just as we always assumed that the King in OOT is a Hylian and could NEVER be a Sonai, as I suspect.)
Thanks for the video, guess I am showing thisfrom now on whenever someone asks me about the consistency. maybe I might add or substract a few details, but currently, I don't even know which ones. Your expslanations really make sense.
edit: Oh and I could also imagine that Vaati is more itnerested in the Power of Zelda than Triforce, because Vaati seems to admire something within the essence of sentient creatures (he became fascinated with human's sinfulness and so on), so the Triforce of the gods might be more powerful but
1) maybe it is too impersonal
2) he didn't even know it existed at all^^
Edit_Edit: Btw I love the images you use to explain that you say, for example Rivali fits perfectly with your speech or the Knight Suit in 18:45. It is a nice joke without really interupting the message
About the Lost Woods being really inconsistent: In Breath, the Crenel Hills have huge tree stumps. Others have theorized that these were once the Deku Tree. It's possible that monster forces cut them down and the Tree was forced to relocate, many times. Since the Deku Tree is in the Lost Woods, maybe it moved a lot.
Crenel Hills especially in TOTK is a downright bizzare place I had/have questions about. Being a previous Lost Woods is something I can totally see.
Pretty great video. It is clear that a lot of effort went into research and editing. Keep up the good work!
Thank you very much! I'm super glad you liked it!
There's WAYYYYY more than 11000 years between BOTW and TP. It's said that there were at least 2 calamites before the Great Calamity with the Unknown Hero. That makes that gap in excess of 30000 years
Love the science, the humor, and the details. You did a great job and Im sharing this with my Zelda friends.
Theory about the lost woods movement. The Master Sword is almost always in the lost woods. The lost woods were consistently around the temple of time in many of the games, which is where you would find the Master Sword. While in BotW, it moved to the Deku tree because that's where it was placed while Link slept. So maybe the Master Sword is what creates the Lost Woods as a "trial" of sorts for those that seek it out.
The Master Sword was with the Deli tree before BotW originally pulled it as a child.
To explain the desert of mystery look no further than paines prairie (near jacksonville).
A lake large enough to have steamboats that was drained with a sinkhole, and has very few trees.
What bothers me is:
- The Temple of Time was built on the site of the Sealed Temple. Okay, cool. Makes sense.
- The Temple of Time appears on the Great Plateau, at the site of the founding of Hyrule. Okay, cool. Makes sense.
- BotW's Forgotten Temple, in a completely different part of the map, was heavily based on the Sealed Temple, implying that the Sealed Temple and the Temple of Time are two completely different locations. Not cool.
When the devs said that BotW was sort of at the end of all three branches of the timeline, having multiple versions of the same temple wandering the map is not what I wanted. :/
Wow! I'm impressed, everything you said makes sense. I was particularly blown away with Zelda 2.
In regards to why Hyrule might move so quickly between games I am staring at that Hyrule Civil War tag. If Hyrule had two factions each calling themselves Hyrule for instance than its possible for there to be two Hyrules at once, each being its own government and kingdom. But when the war ended there would only be one, but that winner might not be the original thus Hyrule as well as its ruling capital and castle could have moved in a very short period of time.
Such a good video 👌
when hyrule encyclopedia tried to do this i was like "nah bruh this is bs" but totk basically confirmed that it's always the same hyrule, and you can also see the oldest map of hyrule in that game...
Also the encyclopedia does a good job with other maps, it says that hytopia from tri force heroes is located on those islands in zelda 2...
But there are some issues, for example hyrule historia says that the master sword in alttp was inside a temple that decayed long ago, so is it the temple of time???? It never says it but why mention it was in a temple lol
Also your question of "where is the master sword " in minish cap, well hyrule encyclopedia confirms that the twili where banished and then the triforce was sealed and the master sword was left behind the door of time, and all of this happens before minish cap
The Great Deku Tree's magic is what creates the Lost Woods to protect himself and the Kokiri.
7:34 Maybe to Miyamoto, but not to the other staff that actually wanted to give Zelda deeper stories and lore.
Ocarina of time’s map would actually fit a lot better if you lined up castle town on the castle ruins in front of hyrule castle in botw
14:00 Nah Lake Hylia always looked like an Ocean to me in OOT. How else is "interesting stuff" washed up at the coast as the woman at the market place states?
My theory on 4 swords adventure is that the place under the castle takes them to a different realm (like lorule) where they find the 4 sword before Vati takes them away in the winds-this means they never actually go back to main Hyrule, so one could interpret that as them being in a sideways dimension, sort of like majoras mask, showing why the map is so weird
I love the evolution of each landmark, especually with death mountain. great video by the way!
The main objection I have to this is that the forgotten temple in botw is blatantly the sealed temple, it includes the tree, the mother goddess statue, and I believe its also laid out exactly the same
Also, I know this was made before totk, so you didn't know this, but the mother goddess statue in the temple also gives you the goddess sword
I've been itching for this video to exist. Thank you for doing this! You did so much better than anyone else could have. Thank you so much for this amazing content!
Thanks! It really means a lot! I made this because I also noticed this hole in Zelda speculation, so it's really affirming to hear that you think I managed to fill it well.
You clearly haven't watched *Monster Maze's* videos.
4-part Series about the ever-evolving geography of Hyrule.
I could buy the lost woods moving due to the great deku tree. As he could be replanted, maybe that effects the surrounding forest…
I really love this idea and im shocked that the video has only around 7000 views. I hope you'll do some more theories and you get the attention you deserve
Actually, OoT's Lake Hylia being right next to the sea really does work out. Remember, the Water Temple is kind of sacred to the Zora. The species of Zora later stated to be _Ocean Zora_
I know many people have pointed out the totk retcon regarding the temple of time, but I believe that it’s not actually that much of a retcon. The temple of time and surrounding area could still be oot castle town. Remember the tenple of time in the sky is a completely different temple and is in much better shape. It’s possible that the history books got it the two temples mixed up, leading to one of them being mistaken for the birthplace of hyrule, or they could be the birthplace of their specific kingdom of hyrule. I mean if hyrule castle has moved, maybe it’s also due to a change in dynasty or government collapse. And the springs work as direct anchors from skyward sword to botw/totk the forgotten temple must have been modified/ built post demon king gannon to house the secret stones and tears map. And personally the founding of hyrule’s by raru Must be different from in skyward sword or at least thousands of years into the future due to the existence of Zora, Rito Gerudo, Gorons, and Even the Zonai, who have ruins from before raru’s kingdom on the surface in Faron. Remember none of these species existed yet. Granted, games in lesser hyrule could easily avoid showing the rito because they’re in a different area and oot doesn’t go into those mountains. And the rito could have fled in twilight princess due to the weather, but wind water looking rito show up in the hd remake in carving form. This implies that rito still at least started to evolve from zora like in wind waker around that point in the timelines. I love how you didn’t just try and overlap all maps over eachother, you found that each game took place in a separate area of hyrule. Makes me hyped to hopefully see northern hyrule again.
Thank you very much! I'm glad you enjoyed it!
TotK does confuse some things, but I think I'm also in the re-founding camp vs placing the tear cutscenes over by SS. My money is actually on a flood-receded Adult timeline due to the lack of Triforce and being the only Hyrule Kingdom vacant enough to re-found.
And if BotW gets a 2nd sequel, I would love to see them re-imagine North Hyrule.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber TOTK-after-TWW placement for the win! Aside from the arguments that were already used in the days of BOTW such as the "ancient sea" and the adult timeline only species inhabiting Hyrule, TOTK gives us more to think about. A new story about how Hyrule was established, but also... There are massive petrified roots all over the Depths (and I'm not talking about the shrines roots). What if the Great Deku Tree's plan from TWW worked, and all the trees he planted managed to connect all the islands together? Their massive roots becoming the foundation for the new kingdom's landmass. Then over the years the Great Sea disappeared and the Depths were born. The Depths have this very bottom-of-the-ocean look and feel. Maybe because it's what it really was.
Though I have to say, I feel like the Zelda team is trying to keep the BOTW saga out of the timeline, and it's even more clear with TOTK. So I prefer to say it's its own thing. But if I had to place the games it would definitely be in the adult timeline.
Those are really cool ideas you’ve mentioned, very interesting
i find your theory about how to fit minish cap into this so funny, because like. i love the idea that there’s an incarnation of link where he doesn’t get to wield the master sword and doesn’t get to possess the triforce of courage, not because he’s failed or because his destiny has changed, but because all that was just not geographically near him fjebfbdb
I loved this video, and I adore the theory! You did a fantastic job of fitting so many disparate parts together, and I really like your rules and explanations (especially the loading zone thing; I honestly think that makes a lot of sense so don't stress about it being a cop-out or something). Overall very glad I spent my time watching this! A shame TotK had to come in and ruin the timeline :) and make any ideas about the founding of Hyrule including Temple of Time locations be questioned :):) and... look, I love that game to death but like,, literally their last 3D Zelda established the founding of Hyrule? Did they? Really have to instantly establish a different founding of Hyrule? It's so frustrating, but ignoring all that I think this theory is a great foundation
I'm really, really glad you liked it, even if I took a hacksaw to some of the maps, lol!
Yeah... TotK kinda throws a wrench in the works. Although I am still pretty confident in my SS/OoT placements through their relation to TP. So even though the "birthplace of Hyrule" statement is a lot more iffy now, I'm not too bothered.
That said, I'm more in the post-timeline re-founding camp than it replacing or predating SS, or sitting awkwardly between SS and OoT on the pre-split timeline. It steps on fewer toes and raises fewer questions IMO. But that's this whole other debate.
If you go along with the line of thinking that "everything developed before and up to Skyward Sword is legend and mythology and may not be entirely accurate to what the canon of BotW and TotK is", as well as "TotK's Past segment is a retelling of Ocarina of Time and the imprisoning war that happened right after", I feel like it allows you to be a lot more flexible with the map placements, especially since the Zonai-founded Hyrule is centered on the Great Plateau / Old Hyrule making it consistent with your Old Hyrule placement as well as where everything is placed in Ocarina of Time. So it doesn't feel like it really screws up anything.
It also allows Wind Waker's "The Castle moved to the north of the previous location that Ganon destroyed" to line up with TotK's canon that "the new castle was built over the site of ganon's imprisonment to prevent accidental disturbance", with the castle being to the north of the Great Plateau.
I used to feel this way too, but I was convinced that TotK's founding of Hyrule takes place between SS and OoT somewhere due to Koume and Kotake appearing in the game as younger Gerudo, meaning it's around 400 years before OoT.
Think of it like this
SS Link and Zelda settle down, but since they are really just regular people, they don't jump into founding a massive kingdom.
Later, the Zonai descend from the Sky (likely from the City in the Sky from TP due to their similar advanced technology and how Shad speaks of an ancient civilization that helped found Hyrule)
A looooong time later, a descendent of SS Zelda (Sonia) marries Rauru and Hyrule is founded.
Then come the interlopers a long time later and a Sage named after the first king (OoT Rauru) builds the Temple of Time over where Rauru's Palace, and before it, The Sealed Grounds, used to be.
@@Inkyink "Kotake" and "Koume" are just names. It's a cool easter egg, but this series likes re-using archetypes too much for me to put too much weight on a name alone. Unless you want to convince me Beedle is immortal and Malon reincarnates, lol.
I'm still not completely sold on that placement. I just have too many questions, and that part of the timeline feels a bit crowded as it is.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber Understandable. Just makes the most sense to me with little to no damage done to the existing timeline. It also fits nicely in more circumstantial matters like OoT Rauru, Sage of Light, being named after the King of Light, The next Ganondorf iteration always wearing a yellow stone on his forehead as a sort of echo to fill the void of where the Secret Stone is for The Demon King, etc. While there are questions, I just find it the most reasonable and satisfying
10:28. Already we have an issue. The sealed temple can be found in botw and totk. It's in the big canyon separating Tabatha and hebra from Ridgeland. Also when it comes to ocarinas death mountain maybe it became dueling peaks. People have theorized windfall is the remains of oot kakariko
Yeah, so far that's the Hidden Temple's uncanny architectural similarities are the most commonly cited criticism so far. I'll have to address it in a follow-up.
I think it could make sense that upon settling the surface, they didn't actually build around the Sealed Temple, and instead traveled somewhere far away that was still inhabitable. Think about all the backstories where spirits say like "the location of the triforce was discovered, causing a war", that could literally mean between Minish Cap and Ocarina of Time people in Lesser Hyrule find out about the Triforce in the yet unmade Old Hyrule, and everyone rushed over there to get it, so the Royal family reestablished themselves in "Old Hyrule" to protect the triforce properly, instead of just hoping no one went over there.
It’s funny how the series has this sort of inconsistency yet I really miss it. Tears of the Kingdom was so boring to explore since it really, REALLY felt like I’d already been there before
Yeah. Caves helped, and the depths were cool at first, but the rest was only interesting insofar as I could check in on how the BotW characters were faring post-timeskip.
What I want most from a future game is to explore a re-imagined Northern continent from Zelda 2.