24 views and only 2 likes, that's diabolical. Do you people understand how these channels work. Please hit the like button before you finish watching the video.
It is because he doesn’t know what he is doing, and is completely unaware of that fact. This is not a good test. It is a good idea to put to the test, but done in a very poor and ignorant fashion.
Awesome video!!!! Literally one of the best explaining sealed vs ported. The slow motion videos were amazing showing perfectly how the port and woofer work together.
10/10 Such a great breakdown and thorough presentation of your subject matter. So neat to watch the videos at the end of the in phase and out of phase cone/port movement. I had no clue, learned something new!
I love the data driven focus of these videos; information that is measurable, observable, and based on facts. Thank you Nerijus for all you do, you are appreciated.
Nice work👍🏼- when I was younger I typically used sealed, now, I prefer ported; more output, less power needed. Ported gives me the ablilty to turn it down( bass level remote control), vs. the opposite of maxing out amp/output to get wanted low end response.
Yeah, the first thirty years of me doing car audio I only used sealed and infinite baffle. I've been getting into ported enclosures the last couple of years. The increased efficiency and extra low end is great. It's also capable of sounding amazing. It can definitely be used in a serious SQ system. 👍
I think the ported for spl only rumor is because sealed are hard to mess up. In a good ported box, you wont be able to actually hear the distortion/resonance. Secondly, you get so much more with so much less power. For proof just look at some of the most expensive and accomplished pro audio companies' products.
@bennyblanco14 This video is about comparing the difference between sealed and ported. Car audio is filled with ignorant people who just repeat what they heard, with zero first hand knowledge or testing. Or people who make worthless statements, such as your comment. If you are seriously interested in sq, HT and pro audio are great learning resources as they tend to be scientific and factual. Where as car audio tends to be filled with rumors, idiots and nonsense. For example, look up.... -car audio transfer function explained Or - car audio fundamental frequency and hormonic interaction. Or - Car audio phase shift. Or anything else that has to do with acoustics. Now search again but remove "Car Audio"..... Accustics are acoustics, whether on a stage or in an hatchback. The transfer function of different enclosures work exactly the same, besides the different acoustic characteristics of the environment.
@JasonWW2000 It wasnt an attack. More like clarification and a reality check. He basically implied my comment was worthless, yet it was on topic and had merit. Then explains how important ported sq info is. Ironically, it may seem important because theres not much info as its frowned upon in the sq world. Hence, my original comment and reply about other audio genres with additional, often better info to learn from. I dont know why you feel offended for Benny.
@johnd5542 I guess I didn't see where he implied your comment was worthless. That might have been in your imagination. Lol. Just like I might have imagined you attacted him. No biggie. Take care.
Not sure if my original comment went through oh well. Anyways videos like this are very informative. Would be cool to see a more in depth video on ports. Like shape size location in relation to driver and all that to the listener/meter. PRs are fun too. Aperiodic mids and midbass would be another interesting deep dive. I know a few old timers who swear by it in cars. They arent the type who love tube amps with 10% distortion either so maybe theyre onto something.
Lol. My cats get into everything. But not as bad as my dwarf goats or guineafowl. Morning Raw! Let's see some rew graphs. Morning, all you sick audio nuts! Gotta be if your watching this for breakfast like me. 😂
2 วันที่ผ่านมา
Great video. It would be interesting to see some test to visualize what everyone says about how sealed boxes are "faster". From what I studied, this is due to the fact that the output of the port is one cycle behind the output of the cone. When you do the tests you did with sine waves, you can't really see this. But with music, that can translate to the "boomyness" of ported boxes. I myself had a 12w7 in a ported enclosure for a decade and after changing it to a sealed, the difference is noticeable. Sure, you loose output, but the sub has so much output already that I have headroom to make it play louder and eq what it is needed.
The distortion at Fb for the vented version of the box seems to be mostly 2nd order. This could be more due to the loading at the entrance and exit of the vent being very different.
Very good video! What would be interesting (for HiFi) is the timing. Maybe you can see it in the waterfall or in the step response or in the phase response, but it is said that bass reflex is not as fast as sealed.
When you say fast, do you mean that quick, dynamic, tight, punchy, controlled sounding bass? If so, I've heard that forever. It seems to be a common generalization. Recently I started experimenting with ported enclosures (due to me switching from a sedan to a suv) and I noticed my reference subs just didn't have that fast, tight sound I was used to when I had them in an infinite baffle set up. I was disappointed, but it still sounded good. I really liked the low end extension and increased efficiency. I had a temporary amp installed, a cheap Power Acoustik RAZR 2500. I had a Rockford Prime 500.1 I needed to test out and holy cow, it sounded completely different. That tight, dynamic punch was back and it sounded amazing. I learned that you can definitely hear a difference in subwoofer amps. I also learned some subwoofers just can't sound dynamic and punchy and play low level details. If you get a good sub on a good amp you can definitely have a serious SQ sound system.
@@JasonWW2000 Yes, by fast I mean precise and differentiated. An amplifier with a lot of power can be heard even if you don't listen at high volume, but also a diaphragm that is not too heavy and a strong magnet. At home I'm also listening to 10” closed in a three-way speaker. For the test with 60 watts now with 150 watts amp, I can hear the difference in a positive sense.
@127bond From my testing, a light cone (low mms) and a strong motor is no guarantee it will have that tight, punchy sound. I don't know what is responsible. I'm leaning towards low inductance, but it's probably a combination of factors.
God luck with home audio sub, i have a Dayton ultimax 18 tuned too 19 hz. love to see som videos on a Sony Xplod as a have 4 xD and it was my first subwoofer almost 13 year ago :)
Do Not forget that you also have to set an subsonic filter. If it is at 20hz by 24db/oct you will lose much of energy in the near of 25-30 hz. Much energy. That also speaks for against closed.
With that particular subsonic frequency and slope your not going to lose any energy at 25hz and 30hz. I actually use that exact frequency and slope in my vehicle and with a 28hz tuning frequency, it plays strong into the low 20's.
From the knowledge I gathered so far I wonder why T-line enclosure isn't more popular? If I got it right , it achieve the desired qualities of both sealed and ported enclosure.
Raw I do the same thing in testing boxes by stuffing the port. I always wondered if the port just being in there changes the refelctions and air flow inside and whether it affects the final output? I know it probably wouldnt be much at these frequencies but just to kill a curiosity. ❤ it as per usual brother.
I've heard that blocking the exterior of the port gives you an enclosure that is not ported or sealed, but something else. The open ended port inside does strange things so it's best to seal the inner end of the port. I don't know how true it is. Maybe it's something that needs investigating.
@JasonWW2000 your absolutely right. I've done a b comparison by removing the port and plating it off to see the difference. See what is happening is your just pushing the tuning frequency lower effectively, making it lower than the driver can play. But you loose the air space. Usually, not ideal, and the port in the box changes the total Q of the box and effectively the final sound quality. But you're right it's not the same! But gives you an idea how the driver behaves.
I went from 2 12”s in a proper ported @35hz to 2 18”s Ultimax in a 7.5ft3 sealed and man they get low. I have 2 of the same trucks Jeep Cherokee XJ, and the one with the sealed Ultimax wants to tear the truck apart. Weirdly I get more sound outside the car with the ported but the sealed sounds to me better and it all stays inside the vehicle.
Well thats a hugh difference in cone area. So Im sure those 2 18s can match the 12s at fb. But if you replaced the 12s ported with 12sealed, it would be extremely underwhelming around fs. Id rather have the right 12s (like SQL) tuned to 26-28hz then 2 12s sealed.
Interesting video! 🙂 But always eemember; chasing a completely tone deaf pre determined, only in fantasy optimal ”taget curve”, is completely different thing than chasing the most musical bass sound.
"musical" IS matching to target. If the target is chosen for a "natural sound", a driver that matches the target closely without EQ, will sound natural and musical.
@@RAW-CAt Well, target curve is only a rough guide to help you, while your ears in combination with your brain are the real King! when it comes to judging true musicality and really tuneful bass. 🙂 Bass reflex and closed box sounds completely different, but both can sound very mysical, done right. In the right application and with the right bass driver to match.
I really got to get a term lab magnum. I'm prolly 150+ at perfect(30-32) on music , but with foam shorting the port size, 150 in the mid twenties would be reasonable. Sorry, my point is, I 've played well beyond tuning with output. PPS you can play loud(4500k) with a good sub if you know its limits even very low. My setup sealed is about 17, windows down maybe 21.
QTS differences dertermining sealed or ported... looks at my ported 180 liter (6.3cube) 2 10s box tuned to about 23.5hz. The drivers have a QTS of ~0.8 and ~43hz FS. Got about 138db @ 21hz with 190w going to the pair. Working pretty well 😄
The QTS doesn't actually determine whether it will work in one enclosure or another. It's just a rough, general guideline to point you in the direction of which enclosure type would be optimal. You can literally run any sub in any enclosure type.
@@JasonWW2000 Yep, but the enclosure will have different requirements. These subs need a LOT of space as you can see. Some 10s i wanted to buy needed half the space (checked in winisd, not some recommended specs which usually are useless)
Can you use an audio interface to measure the same things as something like a dats v3? I see you did an impedance sweep, can this be done just with an interface? Can you messure other TS parameters with just an interface?
The qts thing is a myth. Instead, take a look at the QES, because this indicates the relationship between cone mass and motor power. The lower the better. Whether bass reflex or closed is completely irrelevant.
Both Qes and Qts are important parameters, but they serve different purposes. Whether one is more important depends on what you're trying to achieve with your subwoofer. Here’s a breakdown of what each parameter means and when you might prioritize one over the other: Qes (Electrical Q Factor) Reflects the control the amplifier has over the subwoofer’s movement. A lower Qes indicates tighter electrical damping (better motor control), while a higher Qes suggests less electrical damping. More critical when: You care about the efficiency and control of the subwoofer. You're working with a powerful amplifier or need tight, precise bass response (e.g., sealed enclosures). Qts (Total Q Factor) A combination of Qes (electrical) and Qms (mechanical) factors. It gives a general idea of the subwoofer’s behavior as a whole, reflecting both mechanical and electrical damping. More critical when: You're choosing the appropriate type of enclosure (sealed, ported, infinite baffle, etc.). For example, a Qts < 0.4 is usually better for ported enclosures, while a Qts between 0.4 and 0.7 is preferred for sealed enclosures. In infinite baffle setups, a higher Qts (> 0.7) can work better to generate fuller bass. Which to Prioritize? If you're choosing an enclosure type or system design, Qts will be more relevant. If you want to understand the motor control or power efficiency of the subwoofer, Qes is the more critical factor.
@@bennyblanco14 Since power (or more precisely voltage) is not a limiting factor and EQing capabilities are now available everywhere, it is completely independent of the design that a driver with as much drive as possible and a light diaphragm (which results in a low QES) can reproduce impulses more precisely. The aim should always be to build a subwoofer with the best possible impulse response. Making precise loudspeakers imprecise is possible, the other way around is not.
I actually prefer using EBP for subwoofers. Which is Fs/QES. Under 50 ideal for IB 50 to 75 sealed 75+ ported This is just a general guideline for subs.
@@justinhogan7248 No, this is completely meaningless in practice and at most tells you whether a subwoofer can manage without EQ. Such assumptions are made if you only look at the frequency response.
Hey There I have a big question that I cannot answer with security. I have a Auto Radio with 12 volt input sensitivity. A match up 8 that has an input sensitivity going from 11 volt standard down to 2.8 volts. And a sub woofer amp with 0.2 volt to 5 volts. In order to match the amps I’m guessing that I need to put down the input sensitivity of my match on the subwoofer input from 11 down to 5 volts or 3 volts in order to match the sensitivity of my sub amp. The sub amp is connected via line out. Match Amps receive high level inputs so that they can cope with high voltages. If I connect a amp via line out I guess that this is not high level anymore it is low level input. So in this specific case I’m guessing that a switch from 11 volts to the voltage of the esx qe900.4 amp 0.2-5 volts is required. What would you do ? The sub works but I’m only hitting around 100db with this sub. It has 90db/1w 500wrms 1500 peak the amp has 600watt rms and 1200 peak
You need to measure your HU output and remember the volume level where it outputs no more than 11V. Then at that volume measure the DSP output, it will.be slightly less than stated. And with that set gains on your subwoofer amplifier accordingly.
@Niclas0299 If possible, see if you can get a $50-$60 portable oscilloscope that also shows rms voltage. Then run a 0dB 1k test tone and measure the headunit output. See how much clean output is actually has. If money is tight and you already have a digital multimeter, then just measure voltage alone. This will let you know how high you can turn up the volume and not exceed 11v. Then the second thing. That 4 channel amp may not be the best choice for a sub. What is your sub setup and the voice coil resistance it is wired to? The Match line out should be 3v rms. Make sure you use a splitter rca cable so your feeding that 3v into both left and right rca inputs and the switch on the amp is set to use 2 channel input. Also verify the signal level for the sub is not turned down in the dsp. You can use a 40hz 0dB test tone to make sure the dsp is outputting the full voltage. Even with all that correct, if your subs are at too high an impedance they may be getting limited power from the amp. The gain setting on the amp should allow full power from 5v all the way down to 0.2 volt. If your feeding it 3 volt, then the gain should be turned up a little less than halfway? Something like that. 3v should be plenty, though.
@@JasonWW2000 I have a Audiofrog Gb10D2 Sub which has a switch for 1 Ohm and 4 ohm. It is currently set to 4 ohms. The amps channel 3&4 is bridged and puts out 450 watts rms at 4 ohms not 600 I’m sorry. The subwoofer has a recommended power handling of 500watts rms so the amp matches the subwoofer quite well in this aspect. Why do you recommend switching this amp I’m courious? I will buy a multimeter and check everything the way you explained it. Thank you very much !
@@RAW-CAt Because of physics. Have you ever seen double bass, contrabassoon or pipe organs? They are big for a reason. You want low and big sound, you need a big cabinet. Puting woofer in a small sealed cab is a waste of energy, potential and money. Even most of audio monitors have bass-reflex.
sealed is gaining simplicity and compactness at the cost of gear and energy... huge voice coils, fancy materials, using 1000s of watts to pressurize that lil box. but it's hard to mess up. but now with class D amps, lithium batteries, cheap sophisticated chinese mfg, it kinda makes sense
@lukeace347 Although I agree, bass reflex is more efficient, I don't understand why you say it's an oxymoron or why physics is responsible for it being an oxymoron. You've lost me on that part. Maybe there's some kind of wordplay going on that I'm not understanding.
That will work. Just remember that these prefab boxes are always going to be a compromise so that it will work decently well in a wide range of vehicles. They also tend to compromise on port area in order to keep the boxes as small and lightweight as possible. So if you like the preloaded Alpine enclosures, that's great. If you ever become dissatisfied, a custom enclosure will take you to the next level.
Probably up to 10% is fine🤷 All ports are noisy AF. But this one is not ideal as it's tool low for the sub. I will.update when I'll get the xplod that should be better suited for this enclosure.
I have done a back to back comparison of 8” subs using properly sized enclosures using the exact same drivers in a hatchback car. The output was definitely greater with the ported boxes and was very satisfying when playing bass intensive music like hip hop. The output of higher end sub frequencies seemed relatively diminished. Because I listen to a wide variety of music I stuck with the sealed box since the accuracy of a kick drum hit is much more important to me than sensory experience of a strong 30hz note. It was fascinating to see the port effects visualized in slow motion. Great video.
Sveikas. Baigiau savo zemadaznio projektuka tik su dsp reguliavimu problema jis per tyliai veikia kad helix rta matytu normaliai aišku jo rms 300w o pokolkas uzmaitintas su 200w
@@RAW-CAt 88db 1w/1m kogero teks keisti maitinimo laidą į storesnį ir dėti monobloka papildomai. Bent briesbosiai po sėdynėmis veikia gerai bet aišku tai nereiškia jog nuo 20-50hz geras signalas
This test is useless. You used a stuffed toy to create a “sealed” box. That’s not a sealed box. Your toy is compliant and leaky. You basically have an extremely poor passive radiator that behaves nothing like a sealed box. This is the kind of thing that happens when someone gets a little bit of knowledge but still doesn’t know what they need to know. In order to test this properly you need a proper sealed box and a proper ported box of suitable dimensions for each case. This is neither. On top of that, the end of your port is way too close to the bottom wall of the box. It needs to be a certain minimum distance from any wall inside in order to function properly, which you can calculate based on its dimensions. Restricting it as you have causes issues.
This is why I made impedance sweeps. If the stuffed toy would be acting as a passive radiator OR if the enclosure would be leaking, that would have shown up in the impedance graph. Passive radiator looks the same as a port - two peaks with a valey in between. The fact is that the stuffed toy made the enclosure sealed and it is shown in the impedance graph. This is the main reason I did it. As well if the toy would act as a PR, there would be a peak at the tuning frequency, and there were none. I believe this is the case where YOU got a bit of knowledge but still don't know what you need to know.
@@RAW-CAt Pick up the stuffed toy and blow through it. The fact that you can blow through it should tell you all you need to know. You do not have any idea what you are talking about. I worked in the industry for three decades. That stuffed toy is not sealing anything. Small leaks in cabinets from not sealing in terminal plates properly hurt performance, as do not sealing gaps in joints between panels. Just barely missing a small spot with the sealant or glue compromised the performance in meaningful ways. The gaps involved in those instances are minuscule compared to your toy basically letting air flow through it almost freely. There are reasons we sealed cabinets so they were literally air tight. It needs to be completely airtight in order to properly behave as a spring to help control the woofer’s movement so that it only does what it is supposed to be doing. It can’t do that properly if there are air leaks. This is just as important even in a ported enclosure. Things don’t behave as they’re designed to if the air isn’t controlled properly. If you can’t even figure out that a stuffed toy is not airtight, jeez, there’s no hope for you.
@@ClaytonMacleodhow would you explain the sealed enclosure impedance graph? Why does it look like a normal sealed enclosure sweep and not a leaky or PR sweep? I am literally providing proof with these graphs.
@@RAW-CAt If you were able to exhale, air passed through it. Whether or not you felt a strong stream of air exiting the other side is practically irrelevant. It exited you, so it went into the toy. I sincerely doubt you have the one stuffed toy ever manufactured in the history of stuffed animals with anything other than some kind of fabric sewn together to encase the fibre filling. It is not airtight. And your impedance curve doesn’t tell you everything. A sealed enclosure needs to be airtight or the woofer becomes a pump that creates a pressure delta between the inside and outside of the enclosure that can continue increasing. And as that delta increases the woofer puts itself in more and more danger of harming itself, while degrading its accuracy. If the delta becomes large enough it either starts bottoming out and potentially damaging the voice coil form, or extending so far outward that overheating the voice coil becomes a danger. I’ve had to replace woofers that died for customers because of boxes that weren’t sealed properly. Fixing the seal properly so that it was actually airtight like it should have been always meant that woofer never died that way again. And it helped teach the people that sealed it to begin with the importance of doing that job properly. Those dangers to its own health are negated in a ported enclosure due to the simple fact that the port is a huge hole in it that doesn’t allow a pumping action to occur, avoiding the possibility of that pressure delta altogether. But if a ported enclosure isn’t properly sealed it still hurts performances by making it behave in a fashion that is less accurate than if it were properly sealed. This is why in both cases, sealed enclosures and ported enclosures, it is very important that every gap in its construction is sealed so it is airtight. Otherwise you’re just making it sound worse than it should, and in the case of sealed enclosures, endangering the health of the woofer itself. It still matters in the case of a ported enclosure because the woofer doesn’t get controlled in as ideal a fashion as possible if there are air leaks other than the port itself. Air leaks that change the dynamic properties of the air spring inside the enclosure that is supposed to be controlling the woofer. The port’s volume and physical design/layout are carefully calculated to control the woofer in a certain way within a certain range, and air leaks compromise the physical characteristics of that system making it perform worse than you would want it to. In order to do your test properly you need a properly sealed box that are of decent dimensions for that woofer’s T-S parameters and where you want it to start rolling off. And then you also need a properly dimensioned ported box built according to the T-S parameters and your chosen tuning frequency. The chances of a box being a decent size for both sealed and ported are usually fairly slim. You usually need boxes that are a fairly different volume for each use case. And sealed with sealant, not toys. 🤦♂️
![ILLSLICK - THE KING'S LANDING [Freestyle]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/feIJJnNkTfk/mqdefault.jpg)
This channel and content is gold pure gold
24 views and only 2 likes, that's diabolical. Do you people understand how these channels work. Please hit the like button before you finish watching the video.
🎉 thank you🎉
That like/view was 23hrs ago....
It is because he doesn’t know what he is doing, and is completely unaware of that fact. This is not a good test. It is a good idea to put to the test, but done in a very poor and ignorant fashion.
That was super interesting. Love the slow mo videos supporting the graphs. Having a visual of the cancellation at the port was very cool.
Absolutely love that sub. Strangely, it makes me want a Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup. 🤔
You got a circle and a box. Irresistible to a cat.
True that😀
20:30 I have been saying that for years! Glad to see data to support it.
Awesome video!!!! Literally one of the best explaining sealed vs ported. The slow motion videos were amazing showing perfectly how the port and woofer work together.
Much prefered the slow mo viceos rather than just the graphs. Well done. Thanks for your info.
Thank you
10/10 Such a great breakdown and thorough presentation of your subject matter. So neat to watch the videos at the end of the in phase and out of phase cone/port movement. I had no clue, learned something new!
I love the data driven focus of these videos; information that is measurable, observable, and based on facts. Thank you Nerijus for all you do, you are appreciated.
OMG.. what a video. This was amazing!
Thanks. I have many more if you like this type of videos😉
@@RAW-CAt yes you do. That Midrange Shootout, is gold! 🥇
If it fits, it sits.
Great info ❤
Great video, great explanation and great demonstration, keep up the great work chief, I really enjoy and learning alit from your videos, salute
Nice work👍🏼- when I was younger I typically used sealed, now, I prefer ported; more output, less power needed. Ported gives me the ablilty to turn it down( bass level remote control), vs. the opposite of maxing out amp/output to get wanted low end response.
Yeah, the first thirty years of me doing car audio I only used sealed and infinite baffle. I've been getting into ported enclosures the last couple of years. The increased efficiency and extra low end is great. It's also capable of sounding amazing. It can definitely be used in a serious SQ system. 👍
I think the ported for spl only rumor is because sealed are hard to mess up. In a good ported box, you wont be able to actually hear the distortion/resonance. Secondly, you get so much more with so much less power.
For proof just look at some of the most expensive and accomplished pro audio companies' products.
This isn't about pro audio. This is SQ, and information like this is very important for those running ported.
@bennyblanco14 This video is about comparing the difference between sealed and ported. Car audio is filled with ignorant people who just repeat what they heard, with zero first hand knowledge or testing. Or people who make worthless statements, such as your comment. If you are seriously interested in sq, HT and pro audio are great learning resources as they tend to be scientific and factual. Where as car audio tends to be filled with rumors, idiots and nonsense.
For example, look up....
-car audio transfer function explained
Or
- car audio fundamental frequency and hormonic interaction.
Or
- Car audio phase shift.
Or anything else that has to do with acoustics.
Now search again but remove "Car Audio".....
Accustics are acoustics, whether on a stage or in an hatchback. The transfer function of different enclosures work exactly the same, besides the different acoustic characteristics of the environment.
@johnd5542 There's no need to attack Benny. I don't even know why you feel offended.
@JasonWW2000 It wasnt an attack. More like clarification and a reality check.
He basically implied my comment was worthless, yet it was on topic and had merit. Then explains how important ported sq info is. Ironically, it may seem important because theres not much info as its frowned upon in the sq world. Hence, my original comment and reply about other audio genres with additional, often better info to learn from.
I dont know why you feel offended for Benny.
@johnd5542 I guess I didn't see where he implied your comment was worthless.
That might have been in your imagination. Lol.
Just like I might have imagined you attacted him.
No biggie. Take care.
Great video! Tired of the “ported is for spl” misconception.
Not sure if my original comment went through oh well. Anyways videos like this are very informative. Would be cool to see a more in depth video on ports. Like shape size location in relation to driver and all that to the listener/meter. PRs are fun too. Aperiodic mids and midbass would be another interesting deep dive. I know a few old timers who swear by it in cars. They arent the type who love tube amps with 10% distortion either so maybe theyre onto something.
It would be indeed,however that requires a lot of fabrication and storage space for boxes. We can leave this for DIY Audio Guy🙃
Lol. My cats get into everything. But not as bad as my dwarf goats or guineafowl. Morning Raw! Let's see some rew graphs. Morning, all you sick audio nuts! Gotta be if your watching this for breakfast like me. 😂
Great video. It would be interesting to see some test to visualize what everyone says about how sealed boxes are "faster". From what I studied, this is due to the fact that the output of the port is one cycle behind the output of the cone. When you do the tests you did with sine waves, you can't really see this. But with music, that can translate to the "boomyness" of ported boxes. I myself had a 12w7 in a ported enclosure for a decade and after changing it to a sealed, the difference is noticeable. Sure, you loose output, but the sub has so much output already that I have headroom to make it play louder and eq what it is needed.
The distortion at Fb for the vented version of the box seems to be mostly 2nd order. This could be more due to the loading at the entrance and exit of the vent being very different.
Noted, thanks👍
Very good video!
What would be interesting (for HiFi) is the timing.
Maybe you can see it in the waterfall or in the step response or in the phase response, but it is said that bass reflex is not as fast as sealed.
It can sound off if the ported enclosure is not designed correctly. I will try to see if there is any useful data somewhere else.
When you say fast, do you mean that quick, dynamic, tight, punchy, controlled sounding bass?
If so, I've heard that forever. It seems to be a common generalization.
Recently I started experimenting with ported enclosures (due to me switching from a sedan to a suv) and I noticed my reference subs just didn't have that fast, tight sound I was used to when I had them in an infinite baffle set up.
I was disappointed, but it still sounded good. I really liked the low end extension and increased efficiency. I had a temporary amp installed, a cheap Power Acoustik RAZR 2500. I had a Rockford Prime 500.1 I needed to test out and holy cow, it sounded completely different. That tight, dynamic punch was back and it sounded amazing.
I learned that you can definitely hear a difference in subwoofer amps. I also learned some subwoofers just can't sound dynamic and punchy and play low level details.
If you get a good sub on a good amp you can definitely have a serious SQ sound system.
@@JasonWW2000
Yes, by fast I mean precise and differentiated.
An amplifier with a lot of power can be heard even if you don't listen at high volume, but also a diaphragm that is not too heavy and a strong magnet. At home I'm also listening to 10” closed in a three-way speaker.
For the test with 60 watts now with 150 watts amp, I can hear the difference in a positive sense.
@127bond From my testing, a light cone (low mms) and a strong motor is no guarantee it will have that tight, punchy sound.
I don't know what is responsible. I'm leaning towards low inductance, but it's probably a combination of factors.
Next up is t-line and horns
God luck with home audio sub, i have a Dayton ultimax 18 tuned too 19 hz.
love to see som videos on a Sony Xplod as a have 4 xD and it was my first subwoofer almost 13 year ago :)
I think the video you are refering to was from Alpha Sound. He has some great videos explaining audio.
Yes, I believe that is the one👍
Do Not forget that you also have to set an subsonic filter. If it is at 20hz by 24db/oct you will lose much of energy in the near of 25-30 hz. Much energy. That also speaks for against closed.
With that particular subsonic frequency and slope your not going to lose any energy at 25hz and 30hz.
I actually use that exact frequency and slope in my vehicle and with a 28hz tuning frequency, it plays strong into the low 20's.
From the knowledge I gathered so far I wonder why T-line enclosure isn't more popular? If I got it right , it achieve the desired qualities of both sealed and ported enclosure.
Because they are massive and people want compact options.
I'm sure t-line is popular in home audio, but in a vehicle, space is at a premium.
They have the ultimax 2 now. Carbon cone and 22mm Xmax 800rms. Yea, i knew that off the top of my head. 😂
Raw I do the same thing in testing boxes by stuffing the port. I always wondered if the port just being in there changes the refelctions and air flow inside and whether it affects the final output? I know it probably wouldnt be much at these frequencies but just to kill a curiosity. ❤ it as per usual brother.
I've heard that blocking the exterior of the port gives you an enclosure that is not ported or sealed, but something else. The open ended port inside does strange things so it's best to seal the inner end of the port.
I don't know how true it is. Maybe it's something that needs investigating.
@JasonWW2000 your absolutely right. I've done a b comparison by removing the port and plating it off to see the difference. See what is happening is your just pushing the tuning frequency lower effectively, making it lower than the driver can play. But you loose the air space. Usually, not ideal, and the port in the box changes the total Q of the box and effectively the final sound quality. But you're right it's not the same! But gives you an idea how the driver behaves.
Google ground plane measurements. Super easy and very accurate outside measurements of bass.
I am aware of those, however I do not have such big open space to measure down to 15-20Hz.
"how to turn a ported enclosure in to a sealed enclosure with one fluffy toy!"
That might be a better name for the video😂
An unusual choice of damping material...
Perfect fit with not too much force and is not loose. Does the job😂
I went from 2 12”s in a proper ported @35hz to 2 18”s Ultimax in a 7.5ft3 sealed and man they get low. I have 2 of the same trucks Jeep Cherokee XJ, and the one with the sealed Ultimax wants to tear the truck apart. Weirdly I get more sound outside the car with the ported but the sealed sounds to me better and it all stays inside the vehicle.
Well thats a hugh difference in cone area. So Im sure those 2 18s can match the 12s at fb. But if you replaced the 12s ported with 12sealed, it would be extremely underwhelming around fs. Id rather have the right 12s (like SQL) tuned to 26-28hz then 2 12s sealed.
Interesting video! 🙂 But always eemember; chasing a completely tone deaf pre determined, only in fantasy optimal ”taget curve”, is completely different thing than chasing the most musical bass sound.
"musical" IS matching to target. If the target is chosen for a "natural sound", a driver that matches the target closely without EQ, will sound natural and musical.
@@RAW-CAt Well, target curve is only a rough guide to help you, while your ears in combination with your brain are the real King! when it comes to judging true musicality and really tuneful bass. 🙂
Bass reflex and closed box sounds completely different, but both can sound very mysical, done right. In the right application and with the right bass driver to match.
As you mentioned the cone would play above the tuning frequency but can the subwoofer unload and if so, can you say why. Awesome vid
It can unload due to too much power.
Would the port area affect how soon the driver unloads above tuning?
@@vineshsingh7166 you really would need to model that.
I Appreciate the response. Maybe an idea for a future video upload 😅
Vs. Infinite baffle😊
Is there a way to stop the phase cancelation below tuning?
No, that's physics. Use an infrasonic filter for protection.
i wish i trusted myself to cut wood without an emt on standby 😔
It's all about practice. Start small😉
I really got to get a term lab magnum. I'm prolly 150+ at perfect(30-32) on music , but with foam shorting the port size, 150 in the mid twenties would be reasonable. Sorry, my point is, I 've played well beyond tuning with output.
PPS you can play loud(4500k) with a good sub if you know its limits even very low. My setup sealed is about 17, windows down maybe 21.
If cost is an issue, consider the SPL Labs Mini Bass meter at around $220.
Of course, common sense is the thing that is missing for most people. If you know your gear good enough, there will be no problems👍
QTS differences dertermining sealed or ported... looks at my ported 180 liter (6.3cube) 2 10s box tuned to about 23.5hz.
The drivers have a QTS of ~0.8 and ~43hz FS.
Got about 138db @ 21hz with 190w going to the pair.
Working pretty well 😄
The QTS doesn't actually determine whether it will work in one enclosure or another. It's just a rough, general guideline to point you in the direction of which enclosure type would be optimal.
You can literally run any sub in any enclosure type.
@@JasonWW2000 Yep, but the enclosure will have different requirements. These subs need a LOT of space as you can see. Some 10s i wanted to buy needed half the space (checked in winisd, not some recommended specs which usually are useless)
what driver?
@@scose Some cheap fence audio. It doesnt have a model on it.
Can you use an audio interface to measure the same things as something like a dats v3? I see you did an impedance sweep, can this be done just with an interface? Can you messure other TS parameters with just an interface?
Yes, you can! All you need is a few resistors and connectors. Open REW manual and look up "impedance sweeps" and "TS parameters"🙃
@@RAW-CAt That is very cool! I did not realise REW is this powerful.
@@Gershy13 REW is like excell. Most people know how to use like 10% of it 😀
The qts thing is a myth. Instead, take a look at the QES, because this indicates the relationship between cone mass and motor power. The lower the better. Whether bass reflex or closed is completely irrelevant.
Both Qes and Qts are important parameters, but they serve different purposes. Whether one is more important depends on what you're trying to achieve with your subwoofer. Here’s a breakdown of what each parameter means and when you might prioritize one over the other:
Qes (Electrical Q Factor)
Reflects the control the amplifier has over the subwoofer’s movement.
A lower Qes indicates tighter electrical damping (better motor control), while a higher Qes suggests less electrical damping.
More critical when:
You care about the efficiency and control of the subwoofer.
You're working with a powerful amplifier or need tight, precise bass response (e.g., sealed enclosures).
Qts (Total Q Factor)
A combination of Qes (electrical) and Qms (mechanical) factors.
It gives a general idea of the subwoofer’s behavior as a whole, reflecting both mechanical and electrical damping.
More critical when:
You're choosing the appropriate type of enclosure (sealed, ported, infinite baffle, etc.).
For example, a Qts < 0.4 is usually better for ported enclosures, while a Qts between 0.4 and 0.7 is preferred for sealed enclosures.
In infinite baffle setups, a higher Qts (> 0.7) can work better to generate fuller bass.
Which to Prioritize?
If you're choosing an enclosure type or system design, Qts will be more relevant.
If you want to understand the motor control or power efficiency of the subwoofer, Qes is the more critical factor.
@@bennyblanco14 Since power (or more precisely voltage) is not a limiting factor and EQing capabilities are now available everywhere, it is completely independent of the design that a driver with as much drive as possible and a light diaphragm (which results in a low QES) can reproduce impulses more precisely.
The aim should always be to build a subwoofer with the best possible impulse response. Making precise loudspeakers imprecise is possible, the other way around is not.
I actually prefer using EBP for subwoofers. Which is Fs/QES.
Under 50 ideal for IB
50 to 75 sealed
75+ ported
This is just a general guideline for subs.
@@justinhogan7248 No, this is completely meaningless in practice and at most tells you whether a subwoofer can manage without EQ. Such assumptions are made if you only look at the frequency response.
Hey There I have a big question that I cannot answer with security. I have a Auto Radio with 12 volt input sensitivity. A match up 8 that has an input sensitivity going from 11 volt standard down to 2.8 volts. And a sub woofer amp with 0.2 volt to 5 volts. In order to match the amps I’m guessing that I need to put down the input sensitivity of my match on the subwoofer input from 11 down to 5 volts or 3 volts in order to match the sensitivity of my sub amp. The sub amp is connected via line out. Match Amps receive high level inputs so that they can cope with high voltages. If I connect a amp via line out I guess that this is not high level anymore it is low level input. So in this specific case I’m guessing that a switch from 11 volts to the voltage of the esx qe900.4 amp 0.2-5 volts is required. What would you do ? The sub works but I’m only hitting around 100db with this sub. It has 90db/1w 500wrms 1500 peak the amp has 600watt rms and 1200 peak
You need to measure your HU output and remember the volume level where it outputs no more than 11V. Then at that volume measure the DSP output, it will.be slightly less than stated. And with that set gains on your subwoofer amplifier accordingly.
@@RAW-CAt I have now seen that the line out output’s no more than 3 volt rms. So the optimal output voltage for my sub amp should be 3 volts ?
@Niclas0299 If possible, see if you can get a $50-$60 portable oscilloscope that also shows rms voltage. Then run a 0dB 1k test tone and measure the headunit output. See how much clean output is actually has.
If money is tight and you already have a digital multimeter, then just measure voltage alone.
This will let you know how high you can turn up the volume and not exceed 11v.
Then the second thing. That 4 channel amp may not be the best choice for a sub. What is your sub setup and the voice coil resistance it is wired to?
The Match line out should be 3v rms. Make sure you use a splitter rca cable so your feeding that 3v into both left and right rca inputs and the switch on the amp is set to use 2 channel input.
Also verify the signal level for the sub is not turned down in the dsp. You can use a 40hz 0dB test tone to make sure the dsp is outputting the full voltage.
Even with all that correct, if your subs are at too high an impedance they may be getting limited power from the amp.
The gain setting on the amp should allow full power from 5v all the way down to 0.2 volt. If your feeding it 3 volt, then the gain should be turned up a little less than halfway? Something like that. 3v should be plenty, though.
I recommend that cheap oscilloscope as it will let you measure the clean output. It's good to verify the signal is not clipping. Plus it's cheap.
@@JasonWW2000 I have a Audiofrog Gb10D2 Sub which has a switch for 1 Ohm and 4 ohm. It is currently set to 4 ohms. The amps channel 3&4 is bridged and puts out 450 watts rms at 4 ohms not 600 I’m sorry. The subwoofer has a recommended power handling of 500watts rms so the amp matches the subwoofer quite well in this aspect. Why do you recommend switching this amp I’m courious? I will buy a multimeter and check everything the way you explained it. Thank you very much !
Sealed subwoofer is an oxymoron
How so?
Exactly what I was gonna say. How so?
@@RAW-CAt Because of physics. Have you ever seen double bass, contrabassoon or pipe organs? They are big for a reason. You want low and big sound, you need a big cabinet. Puting woofer in a small sealed cab is a waste of energy, potential and money. Even most of audio monitors have bass-reflex.
sealed is gaining simplicity and compactness at the cost of gear and energy... huge voice coils, fancy materials, using 1000s of watts to pressurize that lil box. but it's hard to mess up. but now with class D amps, lithium batteries, cheap sophisticated chinese mfg, it kinda makes sense
@lukeace347 Although I agree, bass reflex is more efficient, I don't understand why you say it's an oxymoron or why physics is responsible for it being an oxymoron. You've lost me on that part.
Maybe there's some kind of wordplay going on that I'm not understanding.
Man, i dont' understand subwoofer. cabin gain, etc.. so confusing for what. I'm just going to buy a loaded Alpine and call it a day.
Buy it -> learn from mistakes -> learn all the words and meanings☺️
That will work.
Just remember that these prefab boxes are always going to be a compromise so that it will work decently well in a wide range of vehicles. They also tend to compromise on port area in order to keep the boxes as small and lightweight as possible.
So if you like the preloaded Alpine enclosures, that's great. If you ever become dissatisfied, a custom enclosure will take you to the next level.
I was considering going sealed, currently run to JL W3s in a box tuned to 35hz and I feel it sounds boomy at times.
Have you adjusted the crosssovers and applied any EQ to shape the response so it isn't "boomy"???
@@bbfoto7248 yes
@@bbfoto7248 yes
You won’t be happy with the output. Grab a second W3 and go dual sealed
@@ssjdavid I'm running 2 now but in a under the seat ported box.
How much distortion is ok for such slow frequency? Also can be because the bax is tuned below fs?
Probably up to 10% is fine🤷 All ports are noisy AF. But this one is not ideal as it's tool low for the sub. I will.update when I'll get the xplod that should be better suited for this enclosure.
I have done a back to back comparison of 8” subs using properly sized enclosures using the exact same drivers in a hatchback car. The output was definitely greater with the ported boxes and was very satisfying when playing bass intensive music like hip hop. The output of higher end sub frequencies seemed relatively diminished. Because I listen to a wide variety of music I stuck with the sealed box since the accuracy of a kick drum hit is much more important to me than sensory experience of a strong 30hz note.
It was fascinating to see the port effects visualized in slow motion. Great video.
@@2011joser what qts had that 8" sub? And fs
@@elviscaragea4433 the qts was .345 and fs was 33.2 Hz
Sveikas. Baigiau savo zemadaznio projektuka tik su dsp reguliavimu problema jis per tyliai veikia kad helix rta matytu normaliai aišku jo rms 300w o pokolkas uzmaitintas su 200w
Patikrink signalą, jei naudoji gamyklinį, gali būti, kad žemų visai nėra. 200W man asmeniškai labai jau mažai, ypač jei nejautrus subas.
@@RAW-CAt 88db 1w/1m kogero teks keisti maitinimo laidą į storesnį ir dėti monobloka papildomai. Bent briesbosiai po sėdynėmis veikia gerai bet aišku tai nereiškia jog nuo 20-50hz geras signalas
Klausimas ar skiriasi kokybė zemadaznio pajungus 4om nuo 1om
Ne, nėra jokio skirtumo. Vienintelis skirtumas yra kiek stiprintuvas galios duoda.
Hi Nerijus
Can I have your email please? Need to ask something😊
Thanks
rawcaraudiotuning@gmail.com
This test is useless. You used a stuffed toy to create a “sealed” box. That’s not a sealed box. Your toy is compliant and leaky. You basically have an extremely poor passive radiator that behaves nothing like a sealed box. This is the kind of thing that happens when someone gets a little bit of knowledge but still doesn’t know what they need to know.
In order to test this properly you need a proper sealed box and a proper ported box of suitable dimensions for each case. This is neither. On top of that, the end of your port is way too close to the bottom wall of the box. It needs to be a certain minimum distance from any wall inside in order to function properly, which you can calculate based on its dimensions. Restricting it as you have causes issues.
This is why I made impedance sweeps. If the stuffed toy would be acting as a passive radiator OR if the enclosure would be leaking, that would have shown up in the impedance graph. Passive radiator looks the same as a port - two peaks with a valey in between. The fact is that the stuffed toy made the enclosure sealed and it is shown in the impedance graph. This is the main reason I did it. As well if the toy would act as a PR, there would be a peak at the tuning frequency, and there were none. I believe this is the case where YOU got a bit of knowledge but still don't know what you need to know.
@@RAW-CAt Pick up the stuffed toy and blow through it. The fact that you can blow through it should tell you all you need to know. You do not have any idea what you are talking about. I worked in the industry for three decades. That stuffed toy is not sealing anything. Small leaks in cabinets from not sealing in terminal plates properly hurt performance, as do not sealing gaps in joints between panels. Just barely missing a small spot with the sealant or glue compromised the performance in meaningful ways. The gaps involved in those instances are minuscule compared to your toy basically letting air flow through it almost freely. There are reasons we sealed cabinets so they were literally air tight. It needs to be completely airtight in order to properly behave as a spring to help control the woofer’s movement so that it only does what it is supposed to be doing. It can’t do that properly if there are air leaks. This is just as important even in a ported enclosure. Things don’t behave as they’re designed to if the air isn’t controlled properly. If you can’t even figure out that a stuffed toy is not airtight, jeez, there’s no hope for you.
@@ClaytonMacleodI just picked up the toy and tried blowing through it. No air passes through🤷 I guess the impedance graph is correct.
@@ClaytonMacleodhow would you explain the sealed enclosure impedance graph? Why does it look like a normal sealed enclosure sweep and not a leaky or PR sweep? I am literally providing proof with these graphs.
@@RAW-CAt If you were able to exhale, air passed through it. Whether or not you felt a strong stream of air exiting the other side is practically irrelevant. It exited you, so it went into the toy. I sincerely doubt you have the one stuffed toy ever manufactured in the history of stuffed animals with anything other than some kind of fabric sewn together to encase the fibre filling. It is not airtight. And your impedance curve doesn’t tell you everything.
A sealed enclosure needs to be airtight or the woofer becomes a pump that creates a pressure delta between the inside and outside of the enclosure that can continue increasing. And as that delta increases the woofer puts itself in more and more danger of harming itself, while degrading its accuracy. If the delta becomes large enough it either starts bottoming out and potentially damaging the voice coil form, or extending so far outward that overheating the voice coil becomes a danger. I’ve had to replace woofers that died for customers because of boxes that weren’t sealed properly. Fixing the seal properly so that it was actually airtight like it should have been always meant that woofer never died that way again. And it helped teach the people that sealed it to begin with the importance of doing that job properly.
Those dangers to its own health are negated in a ported enclosure due to the simple fact that the port is a huge hole in it that doesn’t allow a pumping action to occur, avoiding the possibility of that pressure delta altogether. But if a ported enclosure isn’t properly sealed it still hurts performances by making it behave in a fashion that is less accurate than if it were properly sealed. This is why in both cases, sealed enclosures and ported enclosures, it is very important that every gap in its construction is sealed so it is airtight. Otherwise you’re just making it sound worse than it should, and in the case of sealed enclosures, endangering the health of the woofer itself. It still matters in the case of a ported enclosure because the woofer doesn’t get controlled in as ideal a fashion as possible if there are air leaks other than the port itself. Air leaks that change the dynamic properties of the air spring inside the enclosure that is supposed to be controlling the woofer. The port’s volume and physical design/layout are carefully calculated to control the woofer in a certain way within a certain range, and air leaks compromise the physical characteristics of that system making it perform worse than you would want it to.
In order to do your test properly you need a properly sealed box that are of decent dimensions for that woofer’s T-S parameters and where you want it to start rolling off. And then you also need a properly dimensioned ported box built according to the T-S parameters and your chosen tuning frequency. The chances of a box being a decent size for both sealed and ported are usually fairly slim. You usually need boxes that are a fairly different volume for each use case. And sealed with sealant, not toys. 🤦♂️