Note: I want to apologise for the audio quality of my microphone. My equipment is starting to show its age and I promise I’ll make a significant improvement on the next video.
I always disliked the idea that Dutch was always crazy and just became more of his true self cause it makes him so much less interesting as an antagonist. I feel like his character is summed up by his final speech in RDR1. Imagine fighting for 20 years for this idea of a free world for you and your family and then having to confront the fact that it can never be, the same idea that you have recruited loads of lost and impressionable souls into and the same idea that multiple people he loved and cared about died for. That would make anyone crazy, especially someone has stubborn and idealistic as Dutch
Yes bro. This is exactly what I think about his character, nobody seems to realise this and people always forget the very political aspects of his character.
There’s this one thing that stuck with me, he always seem to not really care about his gang members dying. We saw this with Davey, Sean, Lenny, Hosea, and then Arthur
genuinely this is the best analysis i have seen on dutch, i really hate it when people paint these black and white pictures of the cast because it just goes against everything rd2 is. roger clark said it best "you can be good one day and bad the next, and its not necessarily a contradiction"
this game aswell as its cast is timeless and perfect like sure we'll get games that may rival red dead 2 at some point in time but it will never ever be forgotten and it is undeniably the best game to have come out in a decade
I always saw him as a man with noble intentions who just completely broke under the pressure of fighting change (that he was smart enough to realize was unstoppable). One thing i feel that kinda gets overlooked is the Guarma chapter. Its a tropical land that, fits what he strives for and considers a free paradise, or "tahiti" yet its full of its own problems and government and signs of progress etc, Dutch gets significantly less patient and more aggressive after guarma because I think inside his mind he knows theres nowhere left to go, there is no tahiti or virgin west for much longer not to mention he lost his oldest brother in arms Hosea that shared that dream right before. So he begins to go on the offensive and lashing out against his ideological opponents like shooting Cornwall directly and taking on the US army etc. Micah speaking into his ear was just one aspect of it that I feel gets overplayed in discussions.
Yeah i feel dutch is a good example of what happens when you are motivated by some abstract ideal/Goal or to ideal He had a mind of the "wild west" or a free world. But ultimately the ideal world he imagined either never existed or did exist but is gone now and gone forever At some point he realises his ideal world cant be real and maybe never ever was real. So he lashes out in anger at the world and those he feel responsible.
It is really a shame, though, because Dutch was right. The Pinkertons and the Government all had their own idea of the future-a future that cared little for nature and birthed innovation and civilization. But not too far after RDR1, we'd find out they were wrong with the First World War. Innovation doesn't breed civility; it just breeds more chaos and destruction. That's their legacy.
They brought convenience and civilization but at what cost? It’s 2024 and we are finally starting to wake up and realize this isn’t the way to live. 1899 seems like total freedom to us but even back then many people saw the government as tyrannical.
@@bwc-chvd The thing is, if you eliminate government, it's a laughably short timeline before it re-emerges as a tyrannical force, exploiting the many for the sake of the few. With no law, the ruling law becomes "might makes right." The result is the same.
@@bwc-chvdif you don't like the benefits from a first world country, there are alot of countries with less freedom you can live in. Russia, China, Middle East etc
This is quite literally the best video essay on Dutch's character. I have never seen someone explain Dutch's mindset, ideas, morality and intentions in such a clear way. Dutch indeed wasnt just some bad person. People call his character rich and it is for a reason - its rich because there is a conflict within him, a conflict that he cannot fully understand, yet he is heavily driven by it. Thats what makes Dutch's character so well written and so interesting, its the vast collection of emotions, ideas and so much more that make his character that complicated. Amazing video, needs a lot more Recognition than it has received.
I think bottom line that Dutch was a bad man not a crazy man. That he was narcissistic but not a narcissist. That he was a romantic and idealist. Very charismatic and intelligent but suffering from doubt because of his origins. He was a bad man that knew he was bad but desperately wanted to be good. He latched onto certain ideals he admired and integrated them into himself. He did lie, to himself. He truly believed he was just misunderstood, eccentric, a seeker. The closer he came to seeing his deception, self delusion, ultimately his true self, the more he began to crack. When he was faced with the truth that he wasn't willing to sacrifice everything for love or loyalty over survival. That he wasn't an outlaw hero doing it all, giving it all, for his family. He shattered. The truth broke him
My least favourite theory about Dutch is that him hitting his head during the train job made him crazy, it’s like the least interesting analysis of his character and doesn’t even fully add up
Literal 50 IQ "theory" when we have Arthur saying he was a blowhard idealist for 2 decades and saying he was actively changing month by month as Micah poisoned his ears. We literally see him degrading in real time through the story.
I think it could make sense in the way that it shows how every single thing is going wrong for dutch and more and more things are happening nonstop to further lead to his mental collapse. But no, the head injury is not THE sole reason dutch went crazy.
@@thegatorhator6822 It's not a 50 IQ theory, it's also not black and white, his brain injury is not the sole reason for his change in behavior, it doesn't remove his agency as a character and it doesn't invalidates the multiple other factors, but I really don't believe Rockstar wrote all this dialogue, left all these clues, by mistake. They clearly put emphasis on it, his head injury did not change his nature but it had an impact on his judgement and behavior and worsened his mental state, which is consistent with how brain injuries can affect people in real life, sometimes with symptoms appearing long after the event. Rockstar's writers are too good to leave in those details unconsciously.
The commentary at the end made me tear up a little and I think it’s so amazing how people can make someone who isn’t real, and has never existed feel so human. Like you can build a person from scratch and still manage to make them so complex. Storytelling and character building is such an amazing thing and the fact you can do a character analysis and maybe even need one to understand a character better is just proof of how well Rockstar has done with this game
What an amazing video! Holy crap, the understanding of nuance and context, it is delectable. It's a breath of fresh air to hear someone talk about another person without demonizing or angelizing, understanding that we're all humans, with flaws and attributes that can tilt us one way to another. Man! I hope you have even more success on yt.
Whenever i played the game i could never be mad at Him. Arthur never cared for the "idea" i think he just experienced the world, and lived the moment id say Arthur had romantic/artistic soul while Dutch had idealistic and autonomic proud one, he was interested in the world, he saw the change, he saw the future, he knew that if people wouldnt stand up for themselfs and fight for the freedom the gov, and the "change" would slowly take it away. He was just aware... He knew that if he would stop fighting or show weakness, people would stop perceiving him as a symbol and figure to follow. Then this rotten world, would take his "discarded" people away and make them even more miserable, while flourishing on their pain. He valued each person as a person not a "tool" thats why he was so disapointed in most of the camp interactions, he wanted to show them their value, that they should cherish their freedom and not be ashamed of it, be proud independent human beings that decide for themselfs. But thing is nobody really cared or understood its importance, xd. Hosea was diffrent, i dont think he even fully agreed with Dutchs philosophy, hosea accepted the way things are and just tried to make 100% of it. He also looked at people as people, not ones to be "saved" i think Hosea knew that not everyone is as such self-aware, and just wanted them to be happy. Thats why they never fully agreed, and discussed a lot, when he died i think for dutch, not only the fact that his mortal enemy took him but also he lost only person that actually understood. So it made him more disapointed, vengefull, all this stress just fueled his anger, each battle lost made him feel more hopeless and defeated, like the cornered animal. When you are angry it seems like your field of vission shortens. You only see things that you are focused on, u dont bother abour irrevelant stuff or consequences. You need to get things done, your way is the only way you see. Thats why he needed people that believed in him, believed in his couse. Whats the point otherwise, i think he would just be so disapointed in humanity, "maybe they ment to be slaves, why do i even bother" thats what i think he would have thought. If one starts doubting the rest would follow. (Platoon is strongest as is its weakest.) And then in his mind, everything would fall apart. Thats why he needed people like micah. Id like to believe that he fully knew that micah didnt believed in shit dutch was really trying to prove and protect. But we will never know. I dont think Dutch ever went mad, he was just so overwhelmed, angry and fixated that he didnt saw diffrent way and felt threathned when other people would start pointing out things they were concerned about. I actually think the gang itself fought for something diffrent than Dutch, bcs if they would believe in things that Dutch did, they wouldnt fall apart. But they Didnt. They believed in Dutch, and he was in fact totally Alone, and responsible for all of their wellbeings. Micah "enabling" him was like a lifesupport at that point he needed anything. Think about it you fight for ideals, you fight for your life, try finding escape route it gets worse and worse, you dont have support in anyone but everyone demands. You lost people, only person that really knew what you were fighting for. you are loosing yourself, start doubting yourself, and everything you stand for. You just need to keep going. Your field of view shortens even more, you only see the target. "People demand more, argue, get mad why cant THEY DO something?!" Maybe he even started to dislike them? Despise their weakness? He started doubting them and their intentions. The rat. What crashed this narrow tunnel dutch was in was none other than Arthurs death. I think it was the first time Dutch acknowleged that this time it wasnt the world that failed him. He himself failed. He was so focused on the way out that he didnt even considered how the way would look and who will actually get out. And then he realised all his work, all those means and sacrifices, was pointless bcs there was noone around anymore, all his precious family was gone, and he killed them while trying to save them. He finally saw their point of view, the concerns of their life, their ambitions, diffrences and things they vauled. He understood that not everyone was like him and may never be, they loved him believed in him, and he failed them. He killed them. That was the moment he was trully defeated, he had nothing left, only himself and his values. He could gave up at this moment, let himself get swallowed by the world he was trying to resist and the world that killed his son, brother, and people who believed in him. orrr.... let go of his values bend the knee and accept his place. Dutch chose neither, i think he stopped caring at that moment, thats why he never conected to indians in rdr1 he didnt want to "save them" he didnt want to connect again. Thats why he didnt have anyone special to him, He decided that to the end of his life he will stick to his point. He will die with it. This time alone and he would be ruthless. He wont care for others he will use other likeminded people and their anger to deal as much damage as possible to the thing he hated the most and took the most from him. Id like to think it was even his vendetta for hosea, arthur, many others and the world that has been killed. Grief and anger were only things that kept him alive, And this time he would sacrifice himself for the couse. When it comes to pairing with micah again. i think it was intended. Micah used him and now he would do the same to him. But also, Micah was his personal failure, he needed support so much that he was blind to all the reason and the facts, If Dutch would stop listening to all those comforting and usless words Micah was feeding him and once, just once, think diffrently maybe he wouldnt have to loose his family. But listening to micah enabling every bad thought was just easier for him. And he knew that. At that time he wouldnt even consider Micah to be a rat. But arthur showed him how the puzzles fit. So he had to take responsabilty for his failure. + lets say saving jon was Arthurs last wish so he also did it for him. Yeh thats how i percieve this Sorry for bad eng ;)
Your english is pretty good, and your analysis of Dutch is also good. I had a similar view, because when the world comes down on you, you don't seek truth, you seek protection, support, no matter where. Because that's how Human psychology works in a way
Bunch of people villanize Dutch and calling him "crazy" or "narcisstic" just because they are ashamed they were catch by his charisma to belive his ideas could become reality. Yes, he was a talker, but he trully have belives. Mingus have very brief but spot on summary on Dutch character in video Red Dead 2 Wants You To Escape. He is what he is. I admire him, but during the game I see and understand he outlived his era and his dreams and ideas was just that - dreams. Nice, but not viable. Than I started pity him, but never hate him. I think, John went through similar path with his view on Dutch.
Probably the best Dutch breakdown I've seen. Hits the nail on the head at every turn and really gets to the heart of what makes Dutch such an amazing complex character
Another misconception about Dutch that people have which I totally disagree with is that he’s a coward. He’s the furthest thing from it, he is willing to risk his own life in insane ways for the sake of pride. Assassinating Cornwall and Brontë was both unnecessary and insanely ballsy. Strutting up to Braithwaite manor, standing in the centre of the line and firing the first shot. Even the lifestyle he lives requires insane grit. There’s countless examples of him being absolute badass. His instances of abandoning people are not due to cowardice, it’s due to pride - and that’s the same reason he’s willing to prove how brave he is at times, even to the point of needlessly risking his own neck.
Dutch wasn't "crazy from the start" per se, but there's tons of evidence to conclude that he wasn't as perfect as people make him out to be in the beginning of the game. His famous speech from Chapter 1 was rehearsed. In Chapter 2 he says that he expects Arthur to betray him. Also John was questioning his actions long before the start of the game. Whenever he started to get along with Jack, Dutch pulled John aside and told him to "Remember, the gang comes first". All of his so called plans didn't work out because he never wanted to leave the outlaw life. These were his failed attempts to cling on to a life that was just no longer attainable.
On the speech in Chapter 1, I don't think the fact he scripted it was a problem. They were just coming out of the most difficult situation they had faced until the end of Chapter 4, and the morale was at a massive low. He needed to be able to say the right thing at that point to keep the gang's spirits up. He needed to cover everything to make sure the speech was as good as it could be. If he said the wrong thing, or acted the wrong way, it could have spiralled in an even worse direction. The difference between the failed Blackwater heist and the failed Saint Denis heist is that Dutch managed to keep his self-control together. Losing Hosea, and then losing Lenny so quickly after (listen to how well Dutch's VA reacts to Lenny's death, it's some of his best acting in the game, and that's saying something) and having no ability to process it, or Hosea to help him through it, he broke.
Im 150+ hrs into this game and still on my first playthrough What made me fully realize how special this game truly is was about a week ago. I hadn't returned to camp and a long time so i returned and chopped some wood, fed the horses, and talked to everyone Its simple but the fact that i wanted to do it says everything
Dutch’s spiral is fleshed out throughout the game. He’s charismatic so people want to attack him as a psycho but he really does unravel over the course of the game (which I believe is months) and it starts at black water which we don’t see.
The way you used the music in this. Holy. You choose the perfect scores at the perfect times. This might be my favorite Dutch essay. Too many people act like he was a blood thirsty liar all along. Not enough people see he deeply cared for the gang yet despite all that chose his actions anyway. Which is so much more heartbreaking
This is why I want to see a RDR3 covering events that were only hinted at in 2 but clearly _very_ important to the characters and their motivations. Events like Arthur falling in love, raising a son, and then losing it all. The same happening to Dutch minus the son, and Hosea... effectively making the whole original gang widowed souls. I think all three of them were very different men, for Arthur, it hardened and broke his heart. For Hosea, it made him softer and more appreciative of the little things. And Dutch? I think it broke him. I think it was the first step in a long and slow journey towards the man we first saw in RDR1. I know people say "it doesn't need a sequel" but I said that about the first game, and I still stand by it, the first Redemption was a flawless story on it's own... but now that it's a duology I can't help feeling like we've only seen two thirds of the major story so far. I wanna see what that original gang was like, in their prime, three steps ahead of the law, fresh off the loss of their loved ones, with hot young blood like John Marston and the Callander brothers bolstering their numbers. Mac seems the prime suspect for a new protagonist that can be easily retconned into the story. As it is in the game... Dutch is honestly kind of an asshole from the start specifically to John and Arthur, and towards the end of the game it's so obvious he sees them as foot soldiers it's hard to understand why they stick with the gang at all... A third and final chapter to the trilogy would really solidify this relationship and show where that bond stems from.
Some things are best left unexplained or else we wouldn’t have all these great analysis’. Also Other than the side content there wouldn’t be another reason to keep playing.
@@j_jizzle_69 okay so why did you play RDR2 then? What you just said applies to the first game getting a sequel as much as it would for the second game. RDR1 was a perfect game that needed no sequel, and yet the sequel was better... You and I would've been the critics who thought it was a bad idea when they announced it in 2016, I WAS one of those people, and yet they proved me wrong. So I really don't care if you say it's "unnecessary" or "best left unexplained" because the whole second game was just that.
@ RDR2 was significantly less of a gamble. Considering the fact that the lead person who wrote both red dead redemption games left Rockstar and there was a lot more to fill in from RDR1. it’d be even more of a gamble cause now you run the risk of ruining someones magnum opus, you have try to figure out how to satisfy the original writer and fans.Also the main theme of this story is redemption wouldn’t make sense if no one actually got redeemed at the end, making there be less of a character arc. Dutch is one of the most analyzed characters you’d run the biggest risk of all, ruining the character of Dutch.
Really well done video man, I was just listening to it the first time I played this as I played Quake2 with it in the background. Maybe that's why I noticed so much but really really good choice of music in this too, some of it was so haunting. Especially 18:20.
these are some great character analysis videos, the algorithm showed me your Arthur one just recently and now I'm watching this one, I like the way you break down your thoughts on things, well done!
Dutch was always evil. However, he never faked his love for the gang and he was genuine with his thoughts against civilization. There were however, always warning signs. In arthurs journal prior to black water he mentions they all could of bought a huge plot of land in california but dutch refused to get it saying it wasnt good enough. Dutch also early on preasures arthur with faith and dutch caring about what arthur thinks about him. It just was at at point when arthur would do somthing no question. He keeps Micah around despite him being a red flag mainly because he feeds his ego. Micah litterally goes against his minimize damage philosophy and dutch doesnt feel revolted by micah and he has been in tge gang long enough to know what the gang thinks about him. He also is dating molly somebody he has no interest with and he keeps making it out like it was always her fault not his. The reason the gang also never left up until 1899 is really simple its because they beleived in dutches cause and they beleived he had it under control. He was their life and leaving him was leaving their freinds and family. There was a lot of emotional preasure for leaving a person you feel in debt to especially because for a while the gang was doing fine but, red dead 2 makes it clear the age of outlaws is coming to an end and now the world is becoming harder to run away from. Dutch also avoids talking about the mother he killed on the boat because he knows it wasnt necesary and no amount of preasuring from micah removes the fact he chose to pull the trigger Dutch keeps insisting on a plan he doesnt have. Dutch's near "surrender" in chapter 3 is meant to be a power flex. Dutch is a bad guy he just doesnt want to see it that way and he genuinely beleives in his own facade. Dutch going against bronte is absalutely meant to be personal. Dutch's need to take care of the vaunrable is not disingenous but, it doesnt have to be disingenous to be manipulative. Especially because he orchastrates a conflict with the natives and the U.S army to purposely start a losing fight. Like its pretty apparent in the chapter that he is rationalizing it as not a self motivated action. Thats the same behavior he had for takjng people into the gang just with a new lense and Common things cult leaders do 1. Target the vanurable shower and love and validation 2. He reminds them of the things he did for them 3. He patronizes somebody for doubting him and preasures them by mentioning faith. 4. He tries to come off always as a victim. I dont see why having a ton of videos on dutch means he is misunderstood. The reason why theres a lot of dutch videos is simple. He is a integral charater in one of the best selling video games of all time. We have tons of WW2 books and its one of the most well documebted wars in history. Even if you still disagree with me that dutchwas always bad. He wasnt a cartoon villian from the start he was a man who beleived he was a noble idealist. Dutch is complex because despite his hatred for society and love for his gang. He himself beleived in his own facade He wasnt a phycopath from thw start. Nobody would insist on that. He was a complex person who like most people dont try to veiw themselves as a villain and he rationalized who he was before losing it. The point that the begining makes with the black water massavre is to make you consider if Dutch was aleays like this. The awnser is underneath the silvertongued leader was a monster even he didnt know existed. That is what makes dutch a compelling villian
Nothing would ever be 'good enough' for Dutch. His idealistic messiah complex demands he always is fighting an oppressive figure. Buying some land and making a commune would never please Dutch, he's gotta be the great liberator!
It's weird how people demonize killing Bronte as some moral failing of Dutch's. Was it poorly thought out, emotionally charged and bad strategy? Yes. Was it some moral evil? No. They were badly wronged by the man multiple times over and he was a career criminal that ran an entire mafia.
I love how well written, developed and complex Dutch is. Considering he was an almost mythical figure with only a brief, enigmatic appearance years ago, Dan House must have had a strong vision for who he was all that time ago. that being said, I'm really interested in what Dan Houser is doing next. no doubt it will be something with an incredible story.
so glad youve uploaded again big man! still remember copying your fallout bases step by step back in the day lol. love the arthur video aswell pal. keep it up
I think the fundamental problem with Dutch is he doesnt know how to turn back or call it quit. He doubles down on everything, every impulsive thought, every blunder he makes. To him, the need to project an aura of confidence and inspiration to the gang is so important, that he cannot afford to be caught without a plan, or worse, contradicting himself in his plans. That is not to say he doesnt contradict himself, but that once set in a course of action he cannot afford to back down and appear as indecisive. This leads to him being seduced into accepting a suggested course of action (a plan) that is downright foolish, just so he can shred off any accusation of indecisiveness. That is also why he is so defensive when any of the gang that are not the "designated planners" (i.e Hosea and Arthur in the early chapters) come up with something when he can't. He feels as if they are telling him he cannot perform his role, or even worse, outright challenging him. This wasnt as much of a problem while he had Hosea and more trust in Arthur. Who could act as "filters" for the more impulsive and nonsensical suggestions other members of the gang and dutch himself would make. But losing them made him more desperate and easier to manipulate.
Dutch saw Hosea like a father figure and Arthur as a son. Dutch feels responsible for his father and son’s death. It makes sense he was driven to insanity over their deaths. Hosea was like the loving grandpa to everyone in the gang. Arthur was the responsible big brother to everyone in the gang. Dutch genuinely used to treat the gang like family as the father of the gang. After the Blackwater Massacre Dutch progressively started to take advantage of them out his own desperation and depression. Blackwater is the first time he murdered Heidi McCourt who was an innocent civilian. Dutch and the gang used to be a Robin Hood and Merry Men like criminals but he and the gang just became another typical criminals after that.
This is much closer to my own view. I find the simplistic opinion that Dutch was just a villain manipulating everyone - by maintaining an act for twenty years with no slip ups - to be silly. I think he believed in himself as the folk hero and that's why everyone else believed it. But as he got older and the world changed and the gang started talking about retirement, he saw everything slipping away. He was always a crook and a killer, but he was an idealist. Then he had to confront that it was all for nothing and a sort of midlife crisis set in before the Blackwater job (I think it's worth noting this was The Big Score that meant the gang would finally be able to quit being outlaws). After that it all just got worse, people kept dying, he gets a head injury, and all the while Micah kept feeding his ego and paranoia.
I think Dutch packed in his dreams of him and his gang settling together and winning if there was a way to win after Hosea’s death and focused only on his freedom cause without Hosea it seemed even if the gang did make freedom it just wouldn’t be the same
I think RDR2 does a really good job at providing multiple perspectives when it comes to Dutch. The one perspective we don't get much closure on is actually Arthur. Arthur says a lot about Dutch. He says he's losing his mind, he says he's just evil, and he says maybe he never knew who Dutch ever was. But in the end he doesn't commit. Arthur's last thoughts of Dutch are that Dutch was his father figure. Despite everything they have been through, his last words about Dutch are, "I gave you all I had."
Let me say that I was initially hostile to this idea, considering that Dutch, in far too many ways, ESPECIALLY the ideological aspect of his character, reminds me of the man who abused me from childhood. But, in an effort to break the conditioning he put into me of outright ignoring things that I don't initially agree with, seeing your perspective on it makes a tad bit of sense. The idea that decades of pent up rage being released in one flash of the pan lashing out with Grima Wormtongue encouraging it all makes a lot more sense for Dutch, with one such scene reinforcing this idea. The part where he mentions getting revenge for his father's death in the battle of Gettysburg... But... To me, even though I already believed that he genuinely cared for his gang, and that he believed in his own bluster, he was always a manipulative character. When you're getting ready to take down the O'Driscolls in the mountain and steal their train robbery plans, Arthur brings up his doubt that Colm was there for them. Dutch's response? "No, you're just doubting ME." I recognized this as a twitch on a puppet string, to immediately get him to walk back on his reasoning and instead display loyalty. A tactic that I'm all too familiar with. He CONSTANTLY emphasized that the gang should be loyal to him, never once letting them even CONSIDER the idea of doubting him. I could come up with more examples, but revisiting the similarities between my dad and Dutch is a tad too much for me to think about right now, seeing as the memories are all raw, but there are plenty of scenes around camp, particularly with John, who openly expresses his doubts to Dutch and is frequently gaslit for it, and Javier, who comes to Dutch with his confusion and is radicalized further into Dutch's ideology. All-in-all, I agree that Dutch is a man with big dreams, who saw them all go down the toilet and lashed out over it, but even though he DOES care about his gang, DOES believe in his idea of revolution, and DID engage in altruism earlier in his "career..." A lesson I learned the hard way is that ideologies like the one Dutch subscribes to are inherently and insidiously manipulative. No preacher or prophet of such ideologies can avoid such a truth. RDR2 is as much a story about disillusionment from radicalism as it is about losing one's faith, to me. I had my own psychotic break when I realized the the purpose my abuser gave to me was made up from wholecloth. It was pretty bad, but not Dutch bad. Coming out of it felt like a waking up from a bad dream, but still facing the consequences of it all. Since then, I've been deconstructing how I got to that point and why, and in all honesty, RDR2 sowed the seed to my own deradicalization and disillusionment with what I was raised with.
@@DopaminedotSeek3rcolonthree I’m sorry to hear you’ve had to endure something like that. That is a really fascinating analysis though, and I think perspectives like yours are actually really helpful in adding certain insights that others (meaning me) couldn’t or wouldn’t consider. I’ve definitely formulated my opinion on Dutch based on my own experiences and I’m genuinely excited to read comments like this because I really don’t think there’s that many wrong answers in how you can interpret this character.
I didn't pick up on this until the second playthrough but Sadie yells at the O'Driscolls in the gunfight at Hanging Dog Ranch in chapter 6 that they burnt down her home, but it was actually Micah
The thing about his speech in the prologue is that he had it written and you can find the note in the chapter 2 camp. Him writting the note before the speech feels as if he doesn't really mean it and had to practice it many times. So his good guy persona might be fake.
This was the best analysis video of Dutch i have ever seen! Far better than the other ones that have a simple "black and white" view on the world. Unlike the other videos and comments i have seen, you actually try to understand Dutch as a person and what he is thinking and feeling, you tried to put us in his shoes with what he went through, with empathy and consideration. i always had a similar view as you on Dutch, but after watching this video, it gave me a new perspective on all the suffering and pain Dutch went through. it truly made me feel sorry for him. Yes Dutch was always a bad man, but he was definitely no Micah Bell. Watching this video definitely now makes me want Red Dead 3 to have Dutch as the main character!
In my view Dutch always viewed himself as a kind of libertarian, gentleman outlaw who is always one step ahead and always outsmarting his enemies. At the start of his career he embodied this by embracing societies' rejects and vagabonds, redistributing wealth from the rich elite to the poor downtrodden and evading the law throughout his numerous heists and robberies. His gang was a symbol of his ideology, a group of renegades the big American civilisation had forgotten, fighting back against it. He had built this almost mythical status around him, his gang believed it and he believed it. Throughout the events of RDR2, he faces the inevitability of the final days of the Wild West, 'Civilisation' is coming and there isn't enough space for them both. He has an elaborate plan to cunningly swindle the wealth of the Grays and Braithwaits from under their noses but he massively underestimates them and is humiliated. Then he has a run in with Bronte, who is not only a representation of this change and urbanisation but constantly mocks and belittles him and humiliates him again. His friends, family and closest followers die and lose faith in him . His entire perception of himself was shattered, he was coming to terms with the fact that the myth of Dutch Van Der Linde was a myth and his fight and legacy would not end how he'd likely envisioned decades prior, but he was incapable of stopping, as he says 'I can't fight my own nature'. His fight against the taming of the West and his ellaborate schemes become more unhinged as this idea of what he was effectively falls apart, he was the great Dutch Van Der Linde, he always had an elaborate plan that would put him on top but for some reason none of them had been working and people are starting to lose faith in his leadership. I don't think he was lying or misleading in his early years, I just think that being a good person and caring leader were not mutually exclusive to his desire to fight change and be a romaticised idea of an outlaw, but after time they came to be and his hate and ego won out. His final years almost seem like a swan song, he knows he's going to lose but he's going out with a bang.
I think Dutchs real failure was always failing to teach his anarchist values to Arthur (& John or the gang as a whole). Especially the many conversations just between him and Arthur really show how he never taught Arthur to question the governments actions the same way he does. Instead he just taught him that what Dutch says is correct and to follow. Without even realising that he did this, often telling Arthur "to just start thinking". And honestly that's fine not everyone can be a good teacher, I think Hosea was the teacher out of the two. And you can see that reflected in Arthurs behavior, later Dutch even says "you talk like Hosea". But if Dutch had been able to properly teach Arthur (and the gang of a whole) to question critically, he could've been a crucial support beam in the gang. Having someone else to plan the next move with (especially after Hoseas death) someone with similar values (we can see Arthur doesn't truely share Dutchs values ("they don't want folks like us no more"), sometimes it feels like he might not even know or understand Dutchs values) could've been the rock he needed to not grow so paranoid/helpless/"mad". And it could've set the gang up to survive without Dutch too. They wouldn't have been as dependant on him, which would've again also put pressure off of him. If you think about it, most of the gang doesn't know or care about his values really. Abigail walks away annoyed when he reads the books to her, she'd much rather have a house "and a regular life" and she wants that from John too. The girls are all not even included in the big thinking, instead being Grimshaws responsibility. Molly fights with him all the time too. Charles never even states if he agrees or not, he's just there to help people. Bill doesn't share many values with Dutch at all, evidenced by the conversation they have on the boat with Bill gloating "about killing those savage indians". Javier argueabley actually shares his values but Javier is a follower not a leader, he just becomes another person depending on Dutch. Ultimately no one (besides Hosea) takes on the role of a co leader or planner. Until Micah (who couldn't give two shits less about anything besides his own survival) shows up and fills this void. Seemingly becoming the person Dutch/the gang has needed all along. Ironically sharing the leading power with the others would've been the anarchist thing all along.
Dutch is loosely based on Henry David Thoreau and his philosophy Transcendentalism in the 1800s America. Thoreau believed in ‘civil disobedience’ in which you break the law in order to go against government injustice. Dutch was trying to do the same thing but he went over board in his law breaking and just became another criminal. His philosophy wasn’t necessarily the problem, it’s that he ended up using his philosophy as an excuse to be a criminal.
Hey this is a good video. I also think in his first introduction in rdr1 where he killed that girl to escape john he had referred to Arthur with one of his lines he told john " at least i didn't mistake you for a errand boy" and i remember Arthur saying something like that he said "i guess i turned into a god damn errand boy" i dont see alot of people talk about that scene but dutch said it so sad sounding i really think he refered to arthur with that line to john. i could be wrong but i think he did just that it was so subtle that you could easily miss it
For me, rd is not only the best video game but perhaps just the best prince of media ever made. If this was a show rather than a game it would have so much more love and appreciation from a lot more people and it would definitely compete against breaking bad as the greatest show ever. Saying this I really appreciate people on TH-cam doing deep dives and exploring the narrative and characters of the game. It makes my heart so happy
Finally someone who sees Dutch the way I do! Thank you so much for this great video about a man who lost everything, including himself. I always thought Dutch was a very complex character, just as much as Arthur, if not a little more. And like you, I always felt sorry for Dutch (just like I felt sorry for Arthur, John, and the whole gang). Ultimately, Dutch's character is not simply black and white, he is one of the most complex personalities I have ever seen in a game, series, or even movie. He is just perfectly written by Rockstar and portrayed by B.B. Davis. Thanks again for your valid analysis of this character who has been largely misunderstood. Cheers!
I agree with you mostly except the at the end. If the cannibal theory is true i think that strengthens the fact he’s a psychopath. It really isn’t for the good of anything or his "cause" to have human skulls and bones from seemingly innocent people in your home after murdering and eating them
I LOVE Dutch with my whole heart he's such a complex character to analyze and I feel sorry for him just like you do 🥺 he deeply cared for those he loved and everyone who says he never cared and he's always been like in chapter 6 is not grasping the whole beauty of his character and personality. You did a great job with this video and clearly have a deep understanding of Dutch.
22:09 i don't get that one. The head detective guy say that they picked up Micha after they got back from the island but the cops finding out about the bank robbery happened before the island incident.
I think possibly when Hosea and Abigail got caught after setting off the explosives, the Pinkerton either got a confession out of the 2 of them about whats happening with the bank, Or, they just pieced it together that they were having a distraction and sent people to the bank. But then again, i do not know why pinkertons would have been In the city at the time. Maybe because Bronte was just killed and the gang was under a lot of heat, as well as the city.
actually yes... The pinker tons simply were at the bank heist because the gang had made so much noise that it was obvious they would try to rob something again.
This was a really good video man. RDR2 became one of my all time favorite games because of Dutch. I normally root for the villains in well told stories because the origin of how they came to be makes you relate and sympathize with them more. I knew he wasn’t a pure villain because you can’t sympathize with a truly evil person. Now if you want to see the BEST pure villain I’ve seen in years watch the new penguin series on hbo max. It’s phenomenal. Oswald Cobb is the epitome of a true villain lol.
I finally finished the game so I could watch your video on Arthur. After watching it I just had to watch your take on Dutch. I love your point of view and I think I have to agree with you! Thank you for the great content, I'm still feeling the high of finishing this game after taking it all in over 125 hours and your videos are an extension of that pleasure ❤
My favorite part of Arthur saying to Dutch “you keep killing people Dutch” is knowing I just spent 100 hours lasso’ing every solo horse rider I ride past and drag em til they stop screaming as Arthur
i deeply enjoyed the video... same as the one about arthur...both made me cry and you maybe got a point... it would be consistent after all... and i esspecially pity for arthur he was too loyal for his own good... and i esspecially would love to hear in the same way as those 2 in a video about john marston that got saved by arthur only to also find his end in RDR1...
With respect to the De Grasse Tyson quote: The number of books on the shelf on a given subject is probably tied more to people’s interest level in that subject, rather than how much knowledge has been accrued on it. Consciousness is simply more relevant to most people than stars, and Dutch is more relevant than any character in RDR2 save for maybe Arthur. We’re not confused about Dutch - we’re just very, very interested in him.
My interpretation is that there always were moments when Dutch became unhinged, or members doubted him, or disaster/death happened to the gang, it’s just those were relatively infrequent events. In 1899 a perfect storm happened were the was setback after setback with no recovery time between them.
I also think the "you can't fight gravity" is also him realizing the next thing he has to do and kind of playfully wording it. "You can't fight Gravity, which I know because I have just decided to jump to my death" I may be reaching but that's how that line felt for me. Just that charismatic way of announcing it really gives "dutch" vibes to me
I think another reason why dutch started acting psychotic is the death of anabell before the events of red dead 2, maybe thats what ignited the senseless killing of that girl at the ferry in blackwater before chapter 1.
I think that Dutch also mirrors Aurthur but as a man who thinks on his life and the guilt that includes, concludes that redemption is impossible. The narrative foil to the themes of the franchise. He sees himself as an evil who can only ever be an evil man. Thus he does evil things, because that's what he is
Dutch is my friend. My only regret was that I could not save him one last time in the end from madness, but you know the brotherly love is there. In the end he knows I did my best, and I know he did his.
Note: I want to apologise for the audio quality of my microphone. My equipment is starting to show its age and I promise I’ll make a significant improvement on the next video.
It sounds like you have a plan
Your voice is fine
It's gonna come it 3 years anyway
I always disliked the idea that Dutch was always crazy and just became more of his true self cause it makes him so much less interesting as an antagonist. I feel like his character is summed up by his final speech in RDR1. Imagine fighting for 20 years for this idea of a free world for you and your family and then having to confront the fact that it can never be, the same idea that you have recruited loads of lost and impressionable souls into and the same idea that multiple people he loved and cared about died for. That would make anyone crazy, especially someone has stubborn and idealistic as Dutch
Yes bro. This is exactly what I think about his character, nobody seems to realise this and people always forget the very political aspects of his character.
There’s this one thing that stuck with me, he always seem to not really care about his gang members dying. We saw this with Davey, Sean, Lenny, Hosea, and then Arthur
@@Amali70_4 He was very hurt by the loss of Hosea and Arthur.
Well said bro
Micah is also a big part of it too of course
genuinely this is the best analysis i have seen on dutch, i really hate it when people paint these black and white pictures of the cast because it just goes against everything rd2 is. roger clark said it best "you can be good one day and bad the next, and its not necessarily a contradiction"
Human nature isn't black and white. It's undoubtedly grey.
People aren’t good or bad; they just are.
this game aswell as its cast is timeless and perfect like sure we'll get games that may rival red dead 2 at some point in time but it will never ever be forgotten and it is undeniably the best game to have come out in a decade
I always saw him as a man with noble intentions who just completely broke under the pressure of fighting change (that he was smart enough to realize was unstoppable). One thing i feel that kinda gets overlooked is the Guarma chapter. Its a tropical land that, fits what he strives for and considers a free paradise, or "tahiti" yet its full of its own problems and government and signs of progress etc, Dutch gets significantly less patient and more aggressive after guarma because I think inside his mind he knows theres nowhere left to go, there is no tahiti or virgin west for much longer not to mention he lost his oldest brother in arms Hosea that shared that dream right before. So he begins to go on the offensive and lashing out against his ideological opponents like shooting Cornwall directly and taking on the US army etc. Micah speaking into his ear was just one aspect of it that I feel gets overplayed in discussions.
Yeah i feel dutch is a good example of what happens when you are motivated by some abstract ideal/Goal or to ideal
He had a mind of the "wild west" or a free world. But ultimately the ideal world he imagined either never existed or did exist but is gone now and gone forever
At some point he realises his ideal world cant be real and maybe never ever was real.
So he lashes out in anger at the world and those he feel responsible.
I've never heard that point about guarma before and you are so right. He finally realized how truly cornered he was on that island
It is really a shame, though, because Dutch was right. The Pinkertons and the Government all had their own idea of the future-a future that cared little for nature and birthed innovation and civilization. But not too far after RDR1, we'd find out they were wrong with the First World War. Innovation doesn't breed civility; it just breeds more chaos and destruction. That's their legacy.
Yes, but Dutch ultimately was no better.
Interesting connection with WWI you made here.
They brought convenience and civilization but at what cost? It’s 2024 and we are finally starting to wake up and realize this isn’t the way to live. 1899 seems like total freedom to us but even back then many people saw the government as tyrannical.
@@bwc-chvd The thing is, if you eliminate government, it's a laughably short timeline before it re-emerges as a tyrannical force, exploiting the many for the sake of the few. With no law, the ruling law becomes "might makes right." The result is the same.
@@bwc-chvdif you don't like the benefits from a first world country, there are alot of countries with less freedom you can live in. Russia, China, Middle East etc
This is quite literally the best video essay on Dutch's character. I have never seen someone explain Dutch's mindset, ideas, morality and intentions in such a clear way. Dutch indeed wasnt just some bad person. People call his character rich and it is for a reason - its rich because there is a conflict within him, a conflict that he cannot fully understand, yet he is heavily driven by it. Thats what makes Dutch's character so well written and so interesting, its the vast collection of emotions, ideas and so much more that make his character that complicated. Amazing video, needs a lot more Recognition than it has received.
He's literally the best written character in the entire franchise and also my favourite above all, even John and Arthur. Such a poetic character.
Finally someone who understands. Saying "Dutch was always evil" does a diservice to the complexity of his character
I think bottom line that Dutch was a bad man not a crazy man. That he was narcissistic but not a narcissist. That he was a romantic and idealist. Very charismatic and intelligent but suffering from doubt because of his origins. He was a bad man that knew he was bad but desperately wanted to be good. He latched onto certain ideals he admired and integrated them into himself. He did lie, to himself. He truly believed he was just misunderstood, eccentric, a seeker. The closer he came to seeing his deception, self delusion, ultimately his true self, the more he began to crack. When he was faced with the truth that he wasn't willing to sacrifice everything for love or loyalty over survival. That he wasn't an outlaw hero doing it all, giving it all, for his family. He shattered. The truth broke him
"He was a bad man that knew he was bad but desperately wanted to be good"
Is a perfect way to describe the character of Dutch!
Perfect describe of Dutch. He lied to himself. He did not dive into morals. He couldn't do that inner diving?
@@gonefishing9781i feel like you can say the same for Low Honour Arthur.
My least favourite theory about Dutch is that him hitting his head during the train job made him crazy, it’s like the least interesting analysis of his character and doesn’t even fully add up
Literal 50 IQ "theory" when we have Arthur saying he was a blowhard idealist for 2 decades and saying he was actively changing month by month as Micah poisoned his ears. We literally see him degrading in real time through the story.
You say that but why would the writers put any emphasis on his head injury at all? You guys remember this is a game right?
I think it could make sense in the way that it shows how every single thing is going wrong for dutch and more and more things are happening nonstop to further lead to his mental collapse. But no, the head injury is not THE sole reason dutch went crazy.
@@Lukeypookie-q4i it's 0% to do with anything idiot
@@thegatorhator6822 It's not a 50 IQ theory, it's also not black and white, his brain injury is not the sole reason for his change in behavior, it doesn't remove his agency as a character and it doesn't invalidates the multiple other factors, but I really don't believe Rockstar wrote all this dialogue, left all these clues, by mistake.
They clearly put emphasis on it, his head injury did not change his nature but it had an impact on his judgement and behavior and worsened his mental state, which is consistent with how brain injuries can affect people in real life, sometimes with symptoms appearing long after the event. Rockstar's writers are too good to leave in those details unconsciously.
The commentary at the end made me tear up a little and I think it’s so amazing how people can make someone who isn’t real, and has never existed feel so human. Like you can build a person from scratch and still manage to make them so complex. Storytelling and character building is such an amazing thing and the fact you can do a character analysis and maybe even need one to understand a character better is just proof of how well Rockstar has done with this game
What an amazing video! Holy crap, the understanding of nuance and context, it is delectable. It's a breath of fresh air to hear someone talk about another person without demonizing or angelizing, understanding that we're all humans, with flaws and attributes that can tilt us one way to another. Man! I hope you have even more success on yt.
Whenever i played the game i could never be mad at Him. Arthur never cared for the "idea" i think he just experienced the world, and lived the moment id say Arthur had romantic/artistic soul while Dutch had idealistic and autonomic proud one, he was interested in the world, he saw the change, he saw the future, he knew that if people wouldnt stand up for themselfs and fight for the freedom the gov, and the "change" would slowly take it away. He was just aware...
He knew that if he would stop fighting or show weakness, people would stop perceiving him as a symbol and figure to follow. Then this rotten world, would take his "discarded" people away and make them even more miserable, while flourishing on their pain.
He valued each person as a person not a "tool" thats why he was so disapointed in most of the camp interactions, he wanted to show them their value, that they should cherish their freedom and not be ashamed of it, be proud independent human beings that decide for themselfs. But thing is nobody really cared or understood its importance, xd. Hosea was diffrent, i dont think he even fully agreed with Dutchs philosophy, hosea accepted the way things are and just tried to make 100% of it. He also looked at people as people, not ones to be "saved" i think Hosea knew that not everyone is as such self-aware, and just wanted them to be happy. Thats why they never fully agreed, and discussed a lot, when he died i think for dutch, not only the fact that his mortal enemy took him but also he lost only person that actually understood. So it made him more disapointed, vengefull, all this stress just fueled his anger, each battle lost made him feel more hopeless and defeated, like the cornered animal.
When you are angry it seems like your field of vission shortens. You only see things that you are focused on, u dont bother abour irrevelant stuff or consequences.
You need to get things done, your way is the only way you see.
Thats why he needed people that believed in him, believed in his couse. Whats the point otherwise, i think he would just be so disapointed in humanity, "maybe they ment to be slaves, why do i even bother" thats what i think he would have thought.
If one starts doubting the rest would follow. (Platoon is strongest as is its weakest.)
And then in his mind, everything would fall apart. Thats why he needed people like micah. Id like to believe that he fully knew that micah didnt believed in shit dutch was really trying to prove and protect.
But we will never know.
I dont think Dutch ever went mad, he was just so overwhelmed, angry and fixated that he didnt saw diffrent way and felt threathned when other people would start pointing out things they were concerned about. I actually think the gang itself fought for something diffrent than Dutch, bcs if they would believe in things that Dutch did, they wouldnt fall apart. But they Didnt. They believed in Dutch, and he was in fact totally Alone, and responsible for all of their wellbeings. Micah "enabling" him was like a lifesupport at that point he needed anything. Think about it you fight for ideals, you fight for your life, try finding escape route it gets worse and worse, you dont have support in anyone but everyone demands. You lost people, only person that really knew what you were fighting for. you are loosing yourself, start doubting yourself, and everything you stand for.
You just need to keep going.
Your field of view shortens even more, you only see the target.
"People demand more, argue, get mad why cant THEY DO something?!" Maybe he even started to dislike them? Despise their weakness?
He started doubting them and their intentions. The rat.
What crashed this narrow tunnel dutch was in was none other than Arthurs death. I think it was the first time Dutch acknowleged that this time it wasnt the world that failed him. He himself failed. He was so focused on the way out that he didnt even considered how the way would look and who will actually get out.
And then he realised all his work, all those means and sacrifices, was pointless bcs there was noone around anymore, all his precious family was gone, and he killed them while trying to save them.
He finally saw their point of view, the concerns of their life, their ambitions, diffrences and things they vauled. He understood that not everyone was like him and may never be, they loved him believed in him, and he failed them. He killed them.
That was the moment he was trully defeated, he had nothing left, only himself and his values. He could gave up at this moment, let himself get swallowed by the world he was trying to resist and the world that killed his son, brother, and people who believed in him. orrr.... let go of his values bend the knee and accept his place.
Dutch chose neither, i think he stopped caring at that moment, thats why he never conected to indians in rdr1 he didnt want to "save them" he didnt want to connect again. Thats why he didnt have anyone special to him, He decided that to the end of his life he will stick to his point. He will die with it. This time alone and he would be ruthless. He wont care for others he will use other likeminded people and their anger to deal as much damage as possible to the thing he hated the most and took the most from him. Id like to think it was even his vendetta for hosea, arthur, many others and the world that has been killed. Grief and anger were only things that kept him alive, And this time he would sacrifice himself for the couse.
When it comes to pairing with micah again. i think it was intended. Micah used him and now he would do the same to him. But also, Micah was his personal failure, he needed support so much that he was blind to all the reason and the facts, If Dutch would stop listening to all those comforting and usless words Micah was feeding him and once, just once, think diffrently maybe he wouldnt have to loose his family.
But listening to micah enabling every bad thought was just easier for him. And he knew that.
At that time he wouldnt even consider Micah to be a rat. But arthur showed him how the puzzles fit. So he had to take responsabilty for his failure.
+ lets say saving jon was Arthurs last wish so he also did it for him.
Yeh thats how i percieve this
Sorry for bad eng
;)
Your english is pretty good, and your analysis of Dutch is also good. I had a similar view, because when the world comes down on you, you don't seek truth, you seek protection, support, no matter where. Because that's how Human psychology works in a way
Bunch of people villanize Dutch and calling him "crazy" or "narcisstic" just because they are ashamed they were catch by his charisma to belive his ideas could become reality. Yes, he was a talker, but he trully have belives. Mingus have very brief but spot on summary on Dutch character in video Red Dead 2 Wants You To Escape. He is what he is. I admire him, but during the game I see and understand he outlived his era and his dreams and ideas was just that - dreams. Nice, but not viable. Than I started pity him, but never hate him. I think, John went through similar path with his view on Dutch.
I ain’t reading all that
@@anglebolg5868Thanks for telling us folk we ain't supposed to talk too much or else we might become like Dutch I reckon.
@@dr.laydude fr
Probably the best Dutch breakdown I've seen. Hits the nail on the head at every turn and really gets to the heart of what makes Dutch such an amazing complex character
Thank you for coming back bro
@@theboss5823 I’d like to stay this time.
Finally a video not saying "Dutch was always crazy blahblahblah"
I'm so grateful to hear more of your pros for this game. One hell of a hiatus!
Another misconception about Dutch that people have which I totally disagree with is that he’s a coward.
He’s the furthest thing from it, he is willing to risk his own life in insane ways for the sake of pride.
Assassinating Cornwall and Brontë was both unnecessary and insanely ballsy. Strutting up to Braithwaite manor, standing in the centre of the line and firing the first shot.
Even the lifestyle he lives requires insane grit. There’s countless examples of him being absolute badass.
His instances of abandoning people are not due to cowardice, it’s due to pride - and that’s the same reason he’s willing to prove how brave he is at times, even to the point of needlessly risking his own neck.
Totally agree. Was always one for commanding from the front
Dutch wasn't "crazy from the start" per se, but there's tons of evidence to conclude that he wasn't as perfect as people make him out to be in the beginning of the game. His famous speech from Chapter 1 was rehearsed. In Chapter 2 he says that he expects Arthur to betray him. Also John was questioning his actions long before the start of the game. Whenever he started to get along with Jack, Dutch pulled John aside and told him to "Remember, the gang comes first". All of his so called plans didn't work out because he never wanted to leave the outlaw life. These were his failed attempts to cling on to a life that was just no longer attainable.
On the speech in Chapter 1, I don't think the fact he scripted it was a problem. They were just coming out of the most difficult situation they had faced until the end of Chapter 4, and the morale was at a massive low. He needed to be able to say the right thing at that point to keep the gang's spirits up. He needed to cover everything to make sure the speech was as good as it could be. If he said the wrong thing, or acted the wrong way, it could have spiralled in an even worse direction. The difference between the failed Blackwater heist and the failed Saint Denis heist is that Dutch managed to keep his self-control together. Losing Hosea, and then losing Lenny so quickly after (listen to how well Dutch's VA reacts to Lenny's death, it's some of his best acting in the game, and that's saying something) and having no ability to process it, or Hosea to help him through it, he broke.
Plus he also shot the innocent girl at the beginning. It was said it wasn't necessary
@@Sh0tgunJust1ce I hate how they mention the speech as if it wa sevidence of something bad
The best video on Dutch I have ever seen, can't wait to see more videos from you
Wonderful evaluation mate, really enjoyed it.
Im 150+ hrs into this game and still on my first playthrough
What made me fully realize how special this game truly is was about a week ago. I hadn't returned to camp and a long time so i returned and chopped some wood, fed the horses, and talked to everyone
Its simple but the fact that i wanted to do it says everything
Dutch’s spiral is fleshed out throughout the game. He’s charismatic so people want to attack him as a psycho but he really does unravel over the course of the game (which I believe is months) and it starts at black water which we don’t see.
Dutch is the guy that you mates with in school and 10 years later you see him down at the local train station tweaking on gear
The way you used the music in this. Holy. You choose the perfect scores at the perfect times. This might be my favorite Dutch essay. Too many people act like he was a blood thirsty liar all along. Not enough people see he deeply cared for the gang yet despite all that chose his actions anyway. Which is so much more heartbreaking
this is by far the best analysis I've seen on dutch. he's a morally gray character, and you pictured that perfectly. keep going man
This is why I want to see a RDR3 covering events that were only hinted at in 2 but clearly _very_ important to the characters and their motivations.
Events like Arthur falling in love, raising a son, and then losing it all.
The same happening to Dutch minus the son, and Hosea... effectively making the whole original gang widowed souls.
I think all three of them were very different men, for Arthur, it hardened and broke his heart. For Hosea, it made him softer and more appreciative of the little things.
And Dutch? I think it broke him.
I think it was the first step in a long and slow journey towards the man we first saw in RDR1.
I know people say "it doesn't need a sequel" but I said that about the first game, and I still stand by it, the first Redemption was a flawless story on it's own... but now that it's a duology I can't help feeling like we've only seen two thirds of the major story so far.
I wanna see what that original gang was like, in their prime, three steps ahead of the law, fresh off the loss of their loved ones, with hot young blood like John Marston and the Callander brothers bolstering their numbers. Mac seems the prime suspect for a new protagonist that can be easily retconned into the story.
As it is in the game... Dutch is honestly kind of an asshole from the start specifically to John and Arthur, and towards the end of the game it's so obvious he sees them as foot soldiers it's hard to understand why they stick with the gang at all... A third and final chapter to the trilogy would really solidify this relationship and show where that bond stems from.
Some things are best left unexplained or else we wouldn’t have all these great analysis’. Also Other than the side content there wouldn’t be another reason to keep playing.
@@j_jizzle_69 okay so why did you play RDR2 then?
What you just said applies to the first game getting a sequel as much as it would for the second game.
RDR1 was a perfect game that needed no sequel, and yet the sequel was better...
You and I would've been the critics who thought it was a bad idea when they announced it in 2016, I WAS one of those people, and yet they proved me wrong.
So I really don't care if you say it's "unnecessary" or "best left unexplained" because the whole second game was just that.
@ RDR2 was significantly less of a gamble. Considering the fact that the lead person who wrote both red dead redemption games left Rockstar and there was a lot more to fill in from RDR1. it’d be even more of a gamble cause now you run the risk of ruining someones magnum opus, you have try to figure out how to satisfy the original writer and fans.Also the main theme of this story is redemption wouldn’t make sense if no one actually got redeemed at the end, making there be less of a character arc. Dutch is one of the most analyzed characters you’d run the biggest risk of all, ruining the character of Dutch.
Really well done video man, I was just listening to it the first time I played this as I played Quake2 with it in the background. Maybe that's why I noticed so much but really really good choice of music in this too, some of it was so haunting. Especially 18:20.
these are some great character analysis videos, the algorithm showed me your Arthur one just recently and now I'm watching this one, I like the way you break down your thoughts on things, well done!
Welcome back! I loved your last red dead vid
I think the whole idea is passionate idealism+ constant failure and oppression =violence,madness, and contradiction of ideals
Dutch was always evil. However, he never faked his love for the gang and he was genuine with his thoughts against civilization.
There were however, always warning signs. In arthurs journal prior to black water he mentions they all could of bought a huge plot of land in california but dutch refused to get it saying it wasnt good enough.
Dutch also early on preasures arthur with faith and dutch caring about what arthur thinks about him. It just was at at point when arthur would do somthing no question. He keeps Micah around despite him being a red flag mainly because he feeds his ego. Micah litterally goes against his minimize damage philosophy and dutch doesnt feel revolted by micah and he has been in tge gang long enough to know what the gang thinks about him.
He also is dating molly somebody he has no interest with and he keeps making it out like it was always her fault not his.
The reason the gang also never left up until 1899 is really simple its because they beleived in dutches cause and they beleived he had it under control. He was their life and leaving him was leaving their freinds and family. There was a lot of emotional preasure for leaving a person you feel in debt to especially because for a while the gang was doing fine but, red dead 2 makes it clear the age of outlaws is coming to an end and now the world is becoming harder to run away from.
Dutch also avoids talking about the mother he killed on the boat because he knows it wasnt necesary and no amount of preasuring from micah removes the fact he chose to pull the trigger
Dutch keeps insisting on a plan he doesnt have. Dutch's near "surrender" in chapter 3 is meant to be a power flex.
Dutch is a bad guy he just doesnt want to see it that way and he genuinely beleives in his own facade. Dutch going against bronte is absalutely meant to be personal.
Dutch's need to take care of the vaunrable is not disingenous but, it doesnt have to be disingenous to be manipulative.
Especially because he orchastrates a conflict with the natives and the U.S army to purposely start a losing fight. Like its pretty apparent in the chapter that he is rationalizing it as not a self motivated action. Thats the same behavior he had for takjng people into the gang just with a new lense and
Common things cult leaders do
1. Target the vanurable shower and love and validation
2. He reminds them of the things he did for them
3. He patronizes somebody for doubting him and preasures them by mentioning faith.
4. He tries to come off always as a victim.
I dont see why having a ton of videos on dutch means he is misunderstood. The reason why theres a lot of dutch videos is simple. He is a integral charater in one of the best selling video games of all time. We have tons of WW2 books and its one of the most well documebted wars in history.
Even if you still disagree with me that dutchwas always bad. He wasnt a cartoon villian from the start he was a man who beleived he was a noble idealist.
Dutch is complex because despite his hatred for society and love for his gang. He himself beleived in his own facade
He wasnt a phycopath from thw start. Nobody would insist on that. He was a complex person who like most people dont try to veiw themselves as a villain and he rationalized who he was before losing it. The point that the begining makes with the black water massavre is to make you consider if Dutch was aleays like this. The awnser is underneath the silvertongued leader was a monster even he didnt know existed.
That is what makes dutch a compelling villian
Nothing would ever be 'good enough' for Dutch. His idealistic messiah complex demands he always is fighting an oppressive figure. Buying some land and making a commune would never please Dutch, he's gotta be the great liberator!
Tbh killing Bronte in hot blood never struck me as worse than killing 20 men in a robbery.
Yeah same what else were they going to do with him anyway after they killed his men and tied him up
It's weird how people demonize killing Bronte as some moral failing of Dutch's. Was it poorly thought out, emotionally charged and bad strategy? Yes. Was it some moral evil? No. They were badly wronged by the man multiple times over and he was a career criminal that ran an entire mafia.
This is the best deep dive into Dutch as a character i have seen. You just gained a sub my friend
Best analysis of Dutch ive seen. You precisely articulated what I've been thinking for years.😊
8:42 Dutch is against tax evasion
24:38 “John made it.” Best part of the entire story, and really both games if you think about it. Best game ever.
You came back to drop a masterpiece and we're all better for it.
I love how well written, developed and complex Dutch is. Considering he was an almost mythical figure with only a brief, enigmatic appearance years ago, Dan House must have had a strong vision for who he was all that time ago. that being said, I'm really interested in what Dan Houser is doing next. no doubt it will be something with an incredible story.
Excellent video and analysis
so glad youve uploaded again big man! still remember copying your fallout bases step by step back in the day lol. love the arthur video aswell pal. keep it up
Hey I just found your channel today but I'm glad you came back to make this gem ❤
YO, THE LEGEND IS BACK!!
I think the fundamental problem with Dutch is he doesnt know how to turn back or call it quit. He doubles down on everything, every impulsive thought, every blunder he makes.
To him, the need to project an aura of confidence and inspiration to the gang is so important, that he cannot afford to be caught without a plan, or worse, contradicting himself in his plans.
That is not to say he doesnt contradict himself, but that once set in a course of action he cannot afford to back down and appear as indecisive.
This leads to him being seduced into accepting a suggested course of action (a plan) that is downright foolish, just so he can shred off any accusation of indecisiveness.
That is also why he is so defensive when any of the gang that are not the "designated planners" (i.e Hosea and Arthur in the early chapters) come up with something when he can't. He feels as if they are telling him he cannot perform his role, or even worse, outright challenging him.
This wasnt as much of a problem while he had Hosea and more trust in Arthur. Who could act as "filters" for the more impulsive and nonsensical suggestions other members of the gang and dutch himself would make. But losing them made him more desperate and easier to manipulate.
Dutch saw Hosea like a father figure and Arthur as a son. Dutch feels responsible for his father and son’s death. It makes sense he was driven to insanity over their deaths.
Hosea was like the loving grandpa to everyone in the gang. Arthur was the responsible big brother to everyone in the gang. Dutch genuinely used to treat the gang like family as the father of the gang.
After the Blackwater Massacre Dutch progressively started to take advantage of them out his own desperation and depression.
Blackwater is the first time he murdered Heidi McCourt who was an innocent civilian. Dutch and the gang used to be a Robin Hood and Merry Men like criminals but he and the gang just became another typical criminals after that.
"Do not seek absolution..."
"Seek Redemption."
I love dutch. He just got lost along the way. He was such a cool true leader. The situation just got too difficult
This is much closer to my own view. I find the simplistic opinion that Dutch was just a villain manipulating everyone - by maintaining an act for twenty years with no slip ups - to be silly. I think he believed in himself as the folk hero and that's why everyone else believed it. But as he got older and the world changed and the gang started talking about retirement, he saw everything slipping away. He was always a crook and a killer, but he was an idealist. Then he had to confront that it was all for nothing and a sort of midlife crisis set in before the Blackwater job (I think it's worth noting this was The Big Score that meant the gang would finally be able to quit being outlaws). After that it all just got worse, people kept dying, he gets a head injury, and all the while Micah kept feeding his ego and paranoia.
This video perfectly sums up how I see Dutch, its a shame how much people simplify him
I think Dutch packed in his dreams of him and his gang settling together and winning if there was a way to win after Hosea’s death and focused only on his freedom cause without Hosea it seemed even if the gang did make freedom it just wouldn’t be the same
I think RDR2 does a really good job at providing multiple perspectives when it comes to Dutch. The one perspective we don't get much closure on is actually Arthur.
Arthur says a lot about Dutch. He says he's losing his mind, he says he's just evil, and he says maybe he never knew who Dutch ever was. But in the end he doesn't commit. Arthur's last thoughts of Dutch are that Dutch was his father figure. Despite everything they have been through, his last words about Dutch are, "I gave you all I had."
I felt the gravity part was just hinting at Dutch was gonna fall of the cliff and die
This is a really good analysis. You put a lot of effort into it.
Let me say that I was initially hostile to this idea, considering that Dutch, in far too many ways, ESPECIALLY the ideological aspect of his character, reminds me of the man who abused me from childhood. But, in an effort to break the conditioning he put into me of outright ignoring things that I don't initially agree with, seeing your perspective on it makes a tad bit of sense. The idea that decades of pent up rage being released in one flash of the pan lashing out with Grima Wormtongue encouraging it all makes a lot more sense for Dutch, with one such scene reinforcing this idea. The part where he mentions getting revenge for his father's death in the battle of Gettysburg... But...
To me, even though I already believed that he genuinely cared for his gang, and that he believed in his own bluster, he was always a manipulative character. When you're getting ready to take down the O'Driscolls in the mountain and steal their train robbery plans, Arthur brings up his doubt that Colm was there for them. Dutch's response? "No, you're just doubting ME." I recognized this as a twitch on a puppet string, to immediately get him to walk back on his reasoning and instead display loyalty. A tactic that I'm all too familiar with. He CONSTANTLY emphasized that the gang should be loyal to him, never once letting them even CONSIDER the idea of doubting him. I could come up with more examples, but revisiting the similarities between my dad and Dutch is a tad too much for me to think about right now, seeing as the memories are all raw, but there are plenty of scenes around camp, particularly with John, who openly expresses his doubts to Dutch and is frequently gaslit for it, and Javier, who comes to Dutch with his confusion and is radicalized further into Dutch's ideology.
All-in-all, I agree that Dutch is a man with big dreams, who saw them all go down the toilet and lashed out over it, but even though he DOES care about his gang, DOES believe in his idea of revolution, and DID engage in altruism earlier in his "career..." A lesson I learned the hard way is that ideologies like the one Dutch subscribes to are inherently and insidiously manipulative. No preacher or prophet of such ideologies can avoid such a truth. RDR2 is as much a story about disillusionment from radicalism as it is about losing one's faith, to me.
I had my own psychotic break when I realized the the purpose my abuser gave to me was made up from wholecloth. It was pretty bad, but not Dutch bad. Coming out of it felt like a waking up from a bad dream, but still facing the consequences of it all. Since then, I've been deconstructing how I got to that point and why, and in all honesty, RDR2 sowed the seed to my own deradicalization and disillusionment with what I was raised with.
@@DopaminedotSeek3rcolonthree I’m sorry to hear you’ve had to endure something like that. That is a really fascinating analysis though, and I think perspectives like yours are actually really helpful in adding certain insights that others (meaning me) couldn’t or wouldn’t consider.
I’ve definitely formulated my opinion on Dutch based on my own experiences and I’m genuinely excited to read comments like this because I really don’t think there’s that many wrong answers in how you can interpret this character.
I didn't pick up on this until the second playthrough but Sadie yells at the O'Driscolls in the gunfight at Hanging Dog Ranch in chapter 6 that they burnt down her home, but it was actually Micah
dutch is my favorite character in the series( writing&ideology wise)
Finally a video defending my all time favorite character
You really just come out of hibernation to drop bangers
wtf why does this guy have only 10k subs? Deserves way more
The thing about his speech in the prologue is that he had it written and you can find the note in the chapter 2 camp. Him writting the note before the speech feels as if he doesn't really mean it and had to practice it many times. So his good guy persona might be fake.
Good to see you back
The drowning bronte scene is so perfect the music everything is perfect and it almost made me cry the first time i saw it
If he was a less narcissist, then he would have been a lovable character
He is back 🤩
Welcome back 🎉
This was the best analysis video of Dutch i have ever seen! Far better than the other ones that have a simple "black and white" view on the world. Unlike the other videos and comments i have seen, you actually try to understand Dutch as a person and what he is thinking and feeling, you tried to put us in his shoes with what he went through, with empathy and consideration. i always had a similar view as you on Dutch, but after watching this video, it gave me a new perspective on all the suffering and pain Dutch went through. it truly made me feel sorry for him. Yes Dutch was always a bad man, but he was definitely no Micah Bell.
Watching this video definitely now makes me want Red Dead 3 to have Dutch as the main character!
In my view Dutch always viewed himself as a kind of libertarian, gentleman outlaw who is always one step ahead and always outsmarting his enemies. At the start of his career he embodied this by embracing societies' rejects and vagabonds, redistributing wealth from the rich elite to the poor downtrodden and evading the law throughout his numerous heists and robberies. His gang was a symbol of his ideology, a group of renegades the big American civilisation had forgotten, fighting back against it. He had built this almost mythical status around him, his gang believed it and he believed it.
Throughout the events of RDR2, he faces the inevitability of the final days of the Wild West, 'Civilisation' is coming and there isn't enough space for them both. He has an elaborate plan to cunningly swindle the wealth of the Grays and Braithwaits from under their noses but he massively underestimates them and is humiliated. Then he has a run in with Bronte, who is not only a representation of this change and urbanisation but constantly mocks and belittles him and humiliates him again. His friends, family and closest followers die and lose faith in him .
His entire perception of himself was shattered, he was coming to terms with the fact that the myth of Dutch Van Der Linde was a myth and his fight and legacy would not end how he'd likely envisioned decades prior, but he was incapable of stopping, as he says 'I can't fight my own nature'. His fight against the taming of the West and his ellaborate schemes become more unhinged as this idea of what he was effectively falls apart, he was the great Dutch Van Der Linde, he always had an elaborate plan that would put him on top but for some reason none of them had been working and people are starting to lose faith in his leadership. I don't think he was lying or misleading in his early years, I just think that being a good person and caring leader were not mutually exclusive to his desire to fight change and be a romaticised idea of an outlaw, but after time they came to be and his hate and ego won out. His final years almost seem like a swan song, he knows he's going to lose but he's going out with a bang.
I think Dutchs real failure was always failing to teach his anarchist values to Arthur (& John or the gang as a whole).
Especially the many conversations just between him and Arthur really show how he never taught Arthur to question the governments actions the same way he does. Instead he just taught him that what Dutch says is correct and to follow. Without even realising that he did this, often telling Arthur "to just start thinking".
And honestly that's fine not everyone can be a good teacher, I think Hosea was the teacher out of the two. And you can see that reflected in Arthurs behavior, later Dutch even says "you talk like Hosea".
But if Dutch had been able to properly teach Arthur (and the gang of a whole) to question critically, he could've been a crucial support beam in the gang. Having someone else to plan the next move with (especially after Hoseas death) someone with similar values (we can see Arthur doesn't truely share Dutchs values ("they don't want folks like us no more"), sometimes it feels like he might not even know or understand Dutchs values) could've been the rock he needed to not grow so paranoid/helpless/"mad". And it could've set the gang up to survive without Dutch too. They wouldn't have been as dependant on him, which would've again also put pressure off of him.
If you think about it, most of the gang doesn't know or care about his values really. Abigail walks away annoyed when he reads the books to her, she'd much rather have a house "and a regular life" and she wants that from John too. The girls are all not even included in the big thinking, instead being Grimshaws responsibility. Molly fights with him all the time too. Charles never even states if he agrees or not, he's just there to help people. Bill doesn't share many values with Dutch at all, evidenced by the conversation they have on the boat with Bill gloating "about killing those savage indians".
Javier argueabley actually shares his values but Javier is a follower not a leader, he just becomes another person depending on Dutch.
Ultimately no one (besides Hosea) takes on the role of a co leader or planner. Until Micah (who couldn't give two shits less about anything besides his own survival) shows up and fills this void. Seemingly becoming the person Dutch/the gang has needed all along.
Ironically sharing the leading power with the others would've been the anarchist thing all along.
Dutch is loosely based on Henry David Thoreau and his philosophy Transcendentalism in the 1800s America.
Thoreau believed in ‘civil disobedience’ in which you break the law in order to go against government injustice. Dutch was trying to do the same thing but he went over board in his law breaking and just became another criminal.
His philosophy wasn’t necessarily the problem, it’s that he ended up using his philosophy as an excuse to be a criminal.
You gave a great interpretation about Dutch and you're right.
Is this not how everyone felt about Dutch? I thought the game did a great job of fleshing him out as a layered character
22:07 dutch's face says it all. He is so confused thinking if he really did mess up that bad by trusting the most the guy who was the rat all along.
Hey this is a good video. I also think in his first introduction in rdr1 where he killed that girl to escape john he had referred to Arthur with one of his lines he told john " at least i didn't mistake you for a errand boy" and i remember Arthur saying something like that he said "i guess i turned into a god damn errand boy" i dont see alot of people talk about that scene but dutch said it so sad sounding i really think he refered to arthur with that line to john. i could be wrong but i think he did just that it was so subtle that you could easily miss it
Amazing video on indeed a fascinating character
Top tier mate 👌
For me, rd is not only the best video game but perhaps just the best prince of media ever made. If this was a show rather than a game it would have so much more love and appreciation from a lot more people and it would definitely compete against breaking bad as the greatest show ever. Saying this I really appreciate people on TH-cam doing deep dives and exploring the narrative and characters of the game. It makes my heart so happy
The goat returns
Finally someone who sees Dutch the way I do! Thank you so much for this great video about a man who lost everything, including himself. I always thought Dutch was a very complex character, just as much as Arthur, if not a little more. And like you, I always felt sorry for Dutch (just like I felt sorry for Arthur, John, and the whole gang). Ultimately, Dutch's character is not simply black and white, he is one of the most complex personalities I have ever seen in a game, series, or even movie. He is just perfectly written by Rockstar and portrayed by B.B. Davis. Thanks again for your valid analysis of this character who has been largely misunderstood. Cheers!
The Goat at it again
i dont say this alot but this was a genuinely great analysis, changed my perspective. subscribed
Really good video 👍
wow is it coincidence that I just watch your Arthur Morgan video the same time you uploaded this?
I agree with you mostly except the at the end. If the cannibal theory is true i think that strengthens the fact he’s a psychopath. It really isn’t for the good of anything or his "cause" to have human skulls and bones from seemingly innocent people in your home after murdering and eating them
I LOVE Dutch with my whole heart he's such a complex character to analyze and I feel sorry for him just like you do 🥺 he deeply cared for those he loved and everyone who says he never cared and he's always been like in chapter 6 is not grasping the whole beauty of his character and personality. You did a great job with this video and clearly have a deep understanding of Dutch.
Well done, mate!
❤️🦌
22:09 i don't get that one. The head detective guy say that they picked up Micha after they got back from the island but the cops finding out about the bank robbery happened before the island incident.
I think possibly when Hosea and Abigail got caught after setting off the explosives, the Pinkerton either got a confession out of the 2 of them about whats happening with the bank, Or, they just pieced it together that they were having a distraction and sent people to the bank. But then again, i do not know why pinkertons would have been In the city at the time. Maybe because Bronte was just killed and the gang was under a lot of heat, as well as the city.
actually yes... The pinker tons simply were at the bank heist because the gang had made so much noise that it was obvious they would try to rob something again.
This was a really good video man. RDR2 became one of my all time favorite games because of Dutch. I normally root for the villains in well told stories because the origin of how they came to be makes you relate and sympathize with them more. I knew he wasn’t a pure villain because you can’t sympathize with a truly evil person. Now if you want to see the BEST pure villain I’ve seen in years watch the new penguin series on hbo max. It’s phenomenal. Oswald Cobb is the epitome of a true villain lol.
I finally finished the game so I could watch your video on Arthur. After watching it I just had to watch your take on Dutch.
I love your point of view and I think I have to agree with you!
Thank you for the great content, I'm still feeling the high of finishing this game after taking it all in over 125 hours and your videos are an extension of that pleasure ❤
My favorite part of Arthur saying to Dutch “you keep killing people Dutch” is knowing I just spent 100 hours lasso’ing every solo horse rider I ride past and drag em til they stop screaming as Arthur
This vid needs more views, goes against the grain of the other Dutch red dead vids which I like. It's also well argued.
See you guys in 2 years for a video on john
I completely agree with you and I’ve always felt this way, thank you for speaking it
i deeply enjoyed the video... same as the one about arthur...both made me cry and you maybe got a point... it would be consistent after all... and i esspecially pity for arthur he was too loyal for his own good... and i esspecially would love to hear in the same way as those 2 in a video about john marston that got saved by arthur only to also find his end in RDR1...
With respect to the De Grasse Tyson quote: The number of books on the shelf on a given subject is probably tied more to people’s interest level in that subject, rather than how much knowledge has been accrued on it. Consciousness is simply more relevant to most people than stars, and Dutch is more relevant than any character in RDR2 save for maybe Arthur. We’re not confused about Dutch - we’re just very, very interested in him.
When the world needed him most, he returned
He’s back!
My interpretation is that there always were moments when Dutch became unhinged, or members doubted him, or disaster/death happened to the gang, it’s just those were relatively infrequent events.
In 1899 a perfect storm happened were the was setback after setback with no recovery time between them.
the man literally did nothing wrong. He didn't betray anyone and he acted like any reasonable gang leader would in almost all of these scenarios.
He did plenty wrong hahaha
I also think the "you can't fight gravity" is also him realizing the next thing he has to do and kind of playfully wording it. "You can't fight Gravity, which I know because I have just decided to jump to my death" I may be reaching but that's how that line felt for me. Just that charismatic way of announcing it really gives "dutch" vibes to me
I think another reason why dutch started acting psychotic is the death of anabell before the events of red dead 2, maybe thats what ignited the senseless killing of that girl at the ferry in blackwater before chapter 1.
I think that Dutch also mirrors Aurthur but as a man who thinks on his life and the guilt that includes, concludes that redemption is impossible. The narrative foil to the themes of the franchise. He sees himself as an evil who can only ever be an evil man. Thus he does evil things, because that's what he is
Dutch is my friend. My only regret was that I could not save him one last time in the end from madness, but you know the brotherly love is there. In the end he knows I did my best, and I know he did his.
When Dutch has his crazy moments is when he sounds like he was in Rdr1 well he sounds so deranged in rdr1