Note: I want to apologise for the audio quality of my microphone. My equipment is starting to show its age and I promise I’ll make a significant improvement on the next video.
I always disliked the idea that Dutch was always crazy and just became more of his true self cause it makes him so much less interesting as an antagonist. I feel like his character is summed up by his final speech in RDR1. Imagine fighting for 20 years for this idea of a free world for you and your family and then having to confront the fact that it can never be, the same idea that you have recruited loads of lost and impressionable souls into and the same idea that multiple people he loved and cared about died for. That would make anyone crazy, especially someone has stubborn and idealistic as Dutch
Yes bro. This is exactly what I think about his character, nobody seems to realise this and people always forget the very political aspects of his character.
There’s this one thing that stuck with me, he always seem to not really care about his gang members dying. We saw this with Davey, Sean, Lenny, Hosea, and then Arthur
genuinely this is the best analysis i have seen on dutch, i really hate it when people paint these black and white pictures of the cast because it just goes against everything rd2 is. roger clark said it best "you can be good one day and bad the next, and its not necessarily a contradiction"
It is really a shame, though, because Dutch was right. The Pinkertons and the Government all had their own idea of the future-a future that cared little for nature and birthed innovation and civilization. But not too far after RDR1, we'd find out they were wrong with the First World War. Innovation doesn't breed civility; it just breeds more chaos and destruction. That's their legacy.
They brought convenience and civilization but at what cost? It’s 2024 and we are finally starting to wake up and realize this isn’t the way to live. 1899 seems like total freedom to us but even back then many people saw the government as tyrannical.
@@bwc-chvd The thing is, if you eliminate government, it's a laughably short timeline before it re-emerges as a tyrannical force, exploiting the many for the sake of the few. With no law, the ruling law becomes "might makes right." The result is the same.
I always saw him as a man with noble intentions who just completely broke under the pressure of fighting change (that he was smart enough to realize was unstoppable). One thing i feel that kinda gets overlooked is the Guarma chapter. Its a tropical land that, fits what he strives for and considers a free paradise, or "tahiti" yet its full of its own problems and government and signs of progress etc, Dutch gets significantly less patient and more aggressive after guarma because I think inside his mind he knows theres nowhere left to go, there is no tahiti or virgin west for much longer not to mention he lost his oldest brother in arms Hosea that shared that dream right before. So he begins to go on the offensive and lashing out against his ideological opponents like shooting Cornwall directly and taking on the US army etc. Micah speaking into his ear was just one aspect of it that I feel gets overplayed in discussions.
Yeah i feel dutch is a good example of what happens when you are motivated by some abstract ideal/Goal or to ideal He had a mind of the "wild west" or a free world. But ultimately the ideal world he imagined either never existed or did exist but is gone now and gone forever At some point he realises his ideal world cant be real and maybe never ever was real. So he lashes out in anger at the world and those he feel responsible.
Whenever i played the game i could never be mad at Him. Arthur never cared for the "idea" i think he just experienced the world, and lived the moment id say Arthur had romantic/artistic soul while Dutch had idealistic and autonomic proud one, he was interested in the world, he saw the change, he saw the future, he knew that if people wouldnt stand up for themselfs and fight for the freedom the gov, and the "change" would slowly take it away. He was just aware... He knew that if he would stop fighting or show weakness, people would stop perceiving him as a symbol and figure to follow. Then this rotten world, would take his "discarded" people away and make them even more miserable, while flourishing on their pain. He valued each person as a person not a "tool" thats why he was so disapointed in most of the camp interactions, he wanted to show them their value, that they should cherish their freedom and not be ashamed of it, be proud independent human beings that decide for themselfs. But thing is nobody really cared or understood its importance, xd. Hosea was diffrent, i dont think he even fully agreed with Dutchs philosophy, hosea accepted the way things are and just tried to make 100% of it. He also looked at people as people, not ones to be "saved" i think Hosea knew that not everyone is as such self-aware, and just wanted them to be happy. Thats why they never fully agreed, and discussed a lot, when he died i think for dutch, not only the fact that his mortal enemy took him but also he lost only person that actually understood. So it made him more disapointed, vengefull, all this stress just fueled his anger, each battle lost made him feel more hopeless and defeated, like the cornered animal. When you are angry it seems like your field of vission shortens. You only see things that you are focused on, u dont bother abour irrevelant stuff or consequences. You need to get things done, your way is the only way you see. Thats why he needed people that believed in him, believed in his couse. Whats the point otherwise, i think he would just be so disapointed in humanity, "maybe they ment to be slaves, why do i even bother" thats what i think he would have thought. If one starts doubting the rest would follow. (Platoon is strongest as is its weakest.) And then in his mind, everything would fall apart. Thats why he needed people like micah. Id like to believe that he fully knew that micah didnt believed in shit dutch was really trying to prove and protect. But we will never know. I dont think Dutch ever went mad, he was just so overwhelmed, angry and fixated that he didnt saw diffrent way and felt threathned when other people would start pointing out things they were concerned about. I actually think the gang itself fought for something diffrent than Dutch, bcs if they would believe in things that Dutch did, they wouldnt fall apart. But they Didnt. They believed in Dutch, and he was in fact totally Alone, and responsible for all of their wellbeings. Micah "enabling" him was like a lifesupport at that point he needed anything. Think about it you fight for ideals, you fight for your life, try finding escape route it gets worse and worse, you dont have support in anyone but everyone demands. You lost people, only person that really knew what you were fighting for. you are loosing yourself, start doubting yourself, and everything you stand for. You just need to keep going. Your field of view shortens even more, you only see the target. "People demand more, argue, get mad why cant THEY DO something?!" Maybe he even started to dislike them? Despise their weakness? He started doubting them and their intentions. The rat. What crashed this narrow tunnel dutch was in was none other than Arthurs death. I think it was the first time Dutch acknowleged that this time it wasnt the world that failed him. He himself failed. He was so focused on the way out that he didnt even considered how the way would look and who will actually get out. And then he realised all his work, all those means and sacrifices, was pointless bcs there was noone around anymore, all his precious family was gone, and he killed them while trying to save them. He finally saw their point of view, the concerns of their life, their ambitions, diffrences and things they vauled. He understood that not everyone was like him and may never be, they loved him believed in him, and he failed them. He killed them. That was the moment he was trully defeated, he had nothing left, only himself and his values. He could gave up at this moment, let himself get swallowed by the world he was trying to resist and the world that killed his son, brother, and people who believed in him. orrr.... let go of his values bend the knee and accept his place. Dutch chose neither, i think he stopped caring at that moment, thats why he never conected to indians in rdr1 he didnt want to "save them" he didnt want to connect again. Thats why he didnt have anyone special to him, He decided that to the end of his life he will stick to his point. He will die with it. This time alone and he would be ruthless. He wont care for others he will use other likeminded people and their anger to deal as much damage as possible to the thing he hated the most and took the most from him. Id like to think it was even his vendetta for hosea, arthur, many others and the world that has been killed. Grief and anger were only things that kept him alive, And this time he would sacrifice himself for the couse. When it comes to pairing with micah again. i think it was intended. Micah used him and now he would do the same to him. But also, Micah was his personal failure, he needed support so much that he was blind to all the reason and the facts, If Dutch would stop listening to all those comforting and usless words Micah was feeding him and once, just once, think diffrently maybe he wouldnt have to loose his family. But listening to micah enabling every bad thought was just easier for him. And he knew that. At that time he wouldnt even consider Micah to be a rat. But arthur showed him how the puzzles fit. So he had to take responsabilty for his failure. + lets say saving jon was Arthurs last wish so he also did it for him. Yeh thats how i percieve this Sorry for bad eng ;)
Your english is pretty good, and your analysis of Dutch is also good. I had a similar view, because when the world comes down on you, you don't seek truth, you seek protection, support, no matter where. Because that's how Human psychology works in a way
Bunch of people villanize Dutch and calling him "crazy" or "narcisstic" just because they are ashamed they were catch by his charisma to belive his ideas could become reality. Yes, he was a talker, but he trully have belives. Mingus have very brief but spot on summary on Dutch character in video Red Dead 2 Wants You To Escape. He is what he is. I admire him, but during the game I see and understand he outlived his era and his dreams and ideas was just that - dreams. Nice, but not viable. Than I started pity him, but never hate him. I think, John went through similar path with his view on Dutch.
I think bottom line that Dutch was a bad man not a crazy man. That he was narcissistic but not a narcissist. That he was a romantic and idealist. Very charismatic and intelligent but suffering from doubt because of his origins. He was a bad man that knew he was bad but desperately wanted to be good. He latched onto certain ideals he admired and integrated them into himself. He did lie, to himself. He truly believed he was just misunderstood, eccentric, a seeker. The closer he came to seeing his deception, self delusion, ultimately his true self, the more he began to crack. When he was faced with the truth that he wasn't willing to sacrifice everything for love or loyalty over survival. That he wasn't an outlaw hero doing it all, giving it all, for his family. He shattered. The truth broke him
This is quite literally the best video essay on Dutch's character. I have never seen someone explain Dutch's mindset, ideas, morality and intentions in such a clear way. Dutch indeed wasnt just some bad person. People call his character rich and it is for a reason - its rich because there is a conflict within him, a conflict that he cannot fully understand, yet he is heavily driven by it. Thats what makes Dutch's character so well written and so interesting, its the vast collection of emotions, ideas and so much more that make his character that complicated. Amazing video, needs a lot more Recognition than it has received.
Dutch wasn't "crazy from the start" per se, but there's tons of evidence to conclude that he wasn't as perfect as people make him out to be in the beginning of the game. His famous speech from Chapter 1 was rehearsed. In Chapter 2 he says that he expects Arthur to betray him. Also John was questioning his actions long before the start of the game. Whenever he started to get along with Jack, Dutch pulled John aside and told him to "Remember, the gang comes first". All of his so called plans didn't work out because he never wanted to leave the outlaw life. These were his failed attempts to cling on to a life that was just no longer attainable.
On the speech in Chapter 1, I don't think the fact he scripted it was a problem. They were just coming out of the most difficult situation they had faced until the end of Chapter 4, and the morale was at a massive low. He needed to be able to say the right thing at that point to keep the gang's spirits up. He needed to cover everything to make sure the speech was as good as it could be. If he said the wrong thing, or acted the wrong way, it could have spiralled in an even worse direction. The difference between the failed Blackwater heist and the failed Saint Denis heist is that Dutch managed to keep his self-control together. Losing Hosea, and then losing Lenny so quickly after (listen to how well Dutch's VA reacts to Lenny's death, it's some of his best acting in the game, and that's saying something) and having no ability to process it, or Hosea to help him through it, he broke.
This is why I want to see a RDR3 covering events that were only hinted at in 2 but clearly _very_ important to the characters and their motivations. Events like Arthur falling in love, raising a son, and then losing it all. The same happening to Dutch minus the son, and Hosea... effectively making the whole original gang widowed souls. I think all three of them were very different men, for Arthur, it hardened and broke his heart. For Hosea, it made him softer and more appreciative of the little things. And Dutch? I think it broke him. I think it was the first step in a long and slow journey towards the man we first saw in RDR1. I know people say "it doesn't need a sequel" but I said that about the first game, and I still stand by it, the first Redemption was a flawless story on it's own... but now that it's a duology I can't help feeling like we've only seen two thirds of the major story so far. I wanna see what that original gang was like, in their prime, three steps ahead of the law, fresh off the loss of their loved ones, with hot young blood like John Marston and the Callander brothers bolstering their numbers. Mac seems the prime suspect for a new protagonist that can be easily retconned into the story. As it is in the game... Dutch is honestly kind of an asshole from the start specifically to John and Arthur, and towards the end of the game it's so obvious he sees them as foot soldiers it's hard to understand why they stick with the gang at all... A third and final chapter to the trilogy would really solidify this relationship and show where that bond stems from.
If he was always insane then wouldn't Arthur have known. Arthur was with Dutch for 20 years. Surely, there must have been at least one time when Dutch showed his true character in front of Arthur within that time.
I agree he wasn't always "insane" but even if he was, it still says more about Arthur than Dutch that Arthur was blind to it being a problem. Arthur worshipped him, and still did even when the gang had been hounded across the country.
Abused partners can stay with their abusive counterpart for longer than 20 years. By then, it's hard to recognize the need to leave, since you've invested so much of your life into them. You also have to remember that Arthur was just a kid when he was picked up. He was still in his formative years, and lived a very hard life. He had nothing normal to compare Dutch to, and very much was given everything he had by Dutch, even the ability to read.
The commentary at the end made me tear up a little and I think it’s so amazing how people can make someone who isn’t real, and has never existed feel so human. Like you can build a person from scratch and still manage to make them so complex. Storytelling and character building is such an amazing thing and the fact you can do a character analysis and maybe even need one to understand a character better is just proof of how well Rockstar has done with this game
I think Dutch packed in his dreams of him and his gang settling together and winning if there was a way to win after Hosea’s death and focused only on his freedom cause without Hosea it seemed even if the gang did make freedom it just wouldn’t be the same
I think the fundamental problem with Dutch is he doesnt know how to turn back or call it quit. He doubles down on everything, every impulsive thought, every blunder he makes. To him, the need to project an aura of confidence and inspiration to the gang is so important, that he cannot afford to be caught without a plan, or worse, contradicting himself in his plans. That is not to say he doesnt contradict himself, but that once set in a course of action he cannot afford to back down and appear as indecisive. This leads to him being seduced into accepting a suggested course of action (a plan) that is downright foolish, just so he can shred off any accusation of indecisiveness. That is also why he is so defensive when any of the gang that are not the "designated planners" (i.e Hosea and Arthur in the early chapters) come up with something when he can't. He feels as if they are telling him he cannot perform his role, or even worse, outright challenging him. This wasnt as much of a problem while he had Hosea and more trust in Arthur. Who could act as "filters" for the more impulsive and nonsensical suggestions other members of the gang and dutch himself would make. But losing them made him more desperate and easier to manipulate.
Dutch saw Hosea like a father figure and Arthur as a son. Dutch feels responsible for his father and son’s death. It makes sense he was driven to insanity over their deaths. Hosea was like the loving grandpa to everyone in the gang. Arthur was the responsible big brother to everyone in the gang. Dutch genuinely used to treat the gang like family as the father of the gang. After the Blackwater Massacre Dutch progressively started to take advantage of them out his own desperation and depression. Blackwater is the first time he murdered Heidi McCourt who was an innocent civilian. Dutch and the gang used to be a Robin Hood and Merry Men like criminals but he and the gang just became another typical criminals after that.
Let me say that I was initially hostile to this idea, considering that Dutch, in far too many ways, ESPECIALLY the ideological aspect of his character, reminds me of the man who abused me from childhood. But, in an effort to break the conditioning he put into me of outright ignoring things that I don't initially agree with, seeing your perspective on it makes a tad bit of sense. The idea that decades of pent up rage being released in one flash of the pan lashing out with Grima Wormtongue encouraging it all makes a lot more sense for Dutch, with one such scene reinforcing this idea. The part where he mentions getting revenge for his father's death in the battle of Gettysburg... But... To me, even though I already believed that he genuinely cared for his gang, and that he believed in his own bluster, he was always a manipulative character. When you're getting ready to take down the O'Driscolls in the mountain and steal their train robbery plans, Arthur brings up his doubt that Colm was there for them. Dutch's response? "No, you're just doubting ME." I recognized this as a twitch on a puppet string, to immediately get him to walk back on his reasoning and instead display loyalty. A tactic that I'm all too familiar with. He CONSTANTLY emphasized that the gang should be loyal to him, never once letting them even CONSIDER the idea of doubting him. I could come up with more examples, but revisiting the similarities between my dad and Dutch is a tad too much for me to think about right now, seeing as the memories are all raw, but there are plenty of scenes around camp, particularly with John, who openly expresses his doubts to Dutch and is frequently gaslit for it, and Javier, who comes to Dutch with his confusion and is radicalized further into Dutch's ideology. All-in-all, I agree that Dutch is a man with big dreams, who saw them all go down the toilet and lashed out over it, but even though he DOES care about his gang, DOES believe in his idea of revolution, and DID engage in altruism earlier in his "career..." A lesson I learned the hard way is that ideologies like the one Dutch subscribes to are inherently and insidiously manipulative. No preacher or prophet of such ideologies can avoid such a truth. RDR2 is as much a story about disillusionment from radicalism as it is about losing one's faith, to me. I had my own psychotic break when I realized the the purpose my abuser gave to me was made up from wholecloth. It was pretty bad, but not Dutch bad. Coming out of it felt like a waking up from a bad dream, but still facing the consequences of it all. Since then, I've been deconstructing how I got to that point and why, and in all honesty, RDR2 sowed the seed to my own deradicalization and disillusionment with what I was raised with.
@@DopaminedotSeek3rcolonthree I’m sorry to hear you’ve had to endure something like that. That is a really fascinating analysis though, and I think perspectives like yours are actually really helpful in adding certain insights that others (meaning me) couldn’t or wouldn’t consider. I’ve definitely formulated my opinion on Dutch based on my own experiences and I’m genuinely excited to read comments like this because I really don’t think there’s that many wrong answers in how you can interpret this character.
The way you used the music in this. Holy. You choose the perfect scores at the perfect times. This might be my favorite Dutch essay. Too many people act like he was a blood thirsty liar all along. Not enough people see he deeply cared for the gang yet despite all that chose his actions anyway. Which is so much more heartbreaking
Dutch was always evil. However, he never faked his love for the gang and he was genuine with his thoughts against civilization. There were however, always warning signs. In arthurs journal prior to black water he mentions they all could of bought a huge plot of land in california but dutch refused to get it saying it wasnt good enough. Dutch also early on preasures arthur with faith and dutch caring about what arthur thinks about him. It just was at at point when arthur would do somthing no question. He keeps Micah around despite him being a red flag mainly because he feeds his ego. Micah litterally goes against his minimize damage philosophy and dutch doesnt feel revolted by micah and he has been in tge gang long enough to know what the gang thinks about him. He also is dating molly somebody he has no interest with and he keeps making it out like it was always her fault not his. The reason the gang also never left up until 1899 is really simple its because they beleived in dutches cause and they beleived he had it under control. He was their life and leaving him was leaving their freinds and family. There was a lot of emotional preasure for leaving a person you feel in debt to especially because for a while the gang was doing fine but, red dead 2 makes it clear the age of outlaws is coming to an end and now the world is becoming harder to run away from. Dutch also avoids talking about the mother he killed on the boat because he knows it wasnt necesary and no amount of preasuring from micah removes the fact he chose to pull the trigger Dutch keeps insisting on a plan he doesnt have. Dutch's near "surrender" in chapter 3 is meant to be a power flex. Dutch is a bad guy he just doesnt want to see it that way and he genuinely beleives in his own facade. Dutch going against bronte is absalutely meant to be personal. Dutch's need to take care of the vaunrable is not disingenous but, it doesnt have to be disingenous to be manipulative. Especially because he orchastrates a conflict with the natives and the U.S army to purposely start a losing fight. Like its pretty apparent in the chapter that he is rationalizing it as not a self motivated action. Thats the same behavior he had for takjng people into the gang just with a new lense and Common things cult leaders do 1. Target the vanurable shower and love and validation 2. He reminds them of the things he did for them 3. He patronizes somebody for doubting him and preasures them by mentioning faith. 4. He tries to come off always as a victim. I dont see why having a ton of videos on dutch means he is misunderstood. The reason why theres a lot of dutch videos is simple. He is a integral charater in one of the best selling video games of all time. We have tons of WW2 books and its one of the most well documebted wars in history. Even if you still disagree with me that dutchwas always bad. He wasnt a cartoon villian from the start he was a man who beleived he was a noble idealist. Dutch is complex because despite his hatred for society and love for his gang. He himself beleived in his own facade He wasnt a phycopath from thw start. Nobody would insist on that. He was a complex person who like most people dont try to veiw themselves as a villain and he rationalized who he was before losing it. The point that the begining makes with the black water massavre is to make you consider if Dutch was aleays like this. The awnser is underneath the silvertongued leader was a monster even he didnt know existed. That is what makes dutch a compelling villian
For me, rd is not only the best video game but perhaps just the best prince of media ever made. If this was a show rather than a game it would have so much more love and appreciation from a lot more people and it would definitely compete against breaking bad as the greatest show ever. Saying this I really appreciate people on TH-cam doing deep dives and exploring the narrative and characters of the game. It makes my heart so happy
so glad youve uploaded again big man! still remember copying your fallout bases step by step back in the day lol. love the arthur video aswell pal. keep it up
My interpretation is that there always were moments when Dutch became unhinged, or members doubted him, or disaster/death happened to the gang, it’s just those were relatively infrequent events. In 1899 a perfect storm happened were the was setback after setback with no recovery time between them.
I LOVE Dutch with my whole heart he's such a complex character to analyze and I feel sorry for him just like you do 🥺 he deeply cared for those he loved and everyone who says he never cared and he's always been like in chapter 6 is not grasping the whole beauty of his character and personality. You did a great job with this video and clearly have a deep understanding of Dutch.
In my view Dutch always viewed himself as a kind of libertarian, gentleman outlaw who is always one step ahead and always outsmarting his enemies. At the start of his career he embodied this by embracing societies' rejects and vagabonds, redistributing wealth from the rich elite to the poor downtrodden and evading the law throughout his numerous heists and robberies. His gang was a symbol of his ideology, a group of renegades the big American civilisation had forgotten, fighting back against it. He had built this almost mythical status around him, his gang believed it and he believed it. Throughout the events of RDR2, he faces the inevitability of the final days of the Wild West, 'Civilisation' is coming and there isn't enough space for them both. He has an elaborate plan to cunningly swindle the wealth of the Grays and Braithwaits from under their noses but he massively underestimates them and is humiliated. Then he has a run in with Bronte, who is not only a representation of this change and urbanisation but constantly mocks and belittles him and humiliates him again. His friends, family and closest followers die and lose faith in him . His entire perception of himself was shattered, he was coming to terms with the fact that the myth of Dutch Van Der Linde was a myth and his fight and legacy would not end how he'd likely envisioned decades prior, but he was incapable of stopping, as he says 'I can't fight my own nature'. His fight against the taming of the West and his ellaborate schemes become more unhinged as this idea of what he was effectively falls apart, he was the great Dutch Van Der Linde, he always had an elaborate plan that would put him on top but for some reason none of them had been working and people are starting to lose faith in his leadership. I don't think he was lying or misleading in his early years, I just think that being a good person and caring leader were not mutually exclusive to his desire to fight change and be a romaticised idea of an outlaw, but after time they came to be and his hate and ego won out. His final years almost seem like a swan song, he knows he's going to lose but he's going out with a bang.
I also think the "you can't fight gravity" is also him realizing the next thing he has to do and kind of playfully wording it. "You can't fight Gravity, which I know because I have just decided to jump to my death" I may be reaching but that's how that line felt for me. Just that charismatic way of announcing it really gives "dutch" vibes to me
Really well done video man, I was just listening to it the first time I played this as I played Quake2 with it in the background. Maybe that's why I noticed so much but really really good choice of music in this too, some of it was so haunting. Especially 18:20.
I finally finished the game so I could watch your video on Arthur. After watching it I just had to watch your take on Dutch. I love your point of view and I think I have to agree with you! Thank you for the great content, I'm still feeling the high of finishing this game after taking it all in over 125 hours and your videos are an extension of that pleasure ❤
I didn't pick up on this until the second playthrough but Sadie yells at the O'Driscolls in the gunfight at Hanging Dog Ranch in chapter 6 that they burnt down her home, but it was actually Micah
Personally, I agree with the explanation of his decline. But, to me, I don't think he was ever a genuine person. It feels like he was a greedy but ideological person. He does seem to believe in the anarchist views but it never came across to me as a belief that that's what will make everyone better but as what makes his life better, which is a small but very important difference. His speech at the beginning of RDR 2 is the kind of speech a cult or church leader would give to keep the flock on the path. It isn't the kind of speech that someone who is genuine gives and after it around the camp you can hear dialogue that suggest that Dutch has been showing those traits for longer than suggested in the video. The reason Blackwater is such a high profile event is because Dutch killed innocent people when the pressure mounted. He makes speeches about being better than Colm yet let's look at even 2 moments in the intro that go against that: When Arthur gets ambushed Dutch says "don't kill him... yet." and has Arthur interrogate him, then doesn't care if you finish him off or let him go even when he's begging. Okay, enemy gang member I guess. When you rob the train and have the civs at gunpoint... again he says he doesn't care and walks off with what he wanted. That doesn't say to me he has a higher vision for society as a whole but a vision for himself and those who will follow him. He doesn't help Sadie because he actually cares about people, he helps her because it was an opportunity to recruit another vulnerable person. It feels like a cult, intentional or not. He has a vision *for himself* and fights for that vision. He's recruited people who are in vulnerable positions and cares for them as long as they agree with him and what he wants. Hosea kept him stableish in that delusion but there were still signs before his death that Dutch is not who Arthur thinks he is. Dutch never "went crazy" Even taking his own claimed goal. He says he wants a good life for them away from the law... yet he never actually makes an effort to move out west and settle. He just keeps making excuses for more money and moving further east. He likes being an outlaw. He likes luxury and money. He sees himself as the good guy. But he can't handle change. He didn't "go crazy" like people say, the mask fell off and people just didn't notice all the slips. Though to be fair I knew Dutch from RDR 1 first so I was looking at everything he did with skepticism from the start so biased lol. Dutch is very good at DARVO and it's shown in pretty much every chapter when people disagree or question him. It just gets way more obvious things're not going well as the game goes on.
RDR2 being the first RDR i played... i think dutch did go insane. It all started on the Ferry job where he shot a woman. Which he then completely fails to cope with.
I think that Dutch also mirrors Aurthur but as a man who thinks on his life and the guilt that includes, concludes that redemption is impossible. The narrative foil to the themes of the franchise. He sees himself as an evil who can only ever be an evil man. Thus he does evil things, because that's what he is
I agree for the most part, I will say though that Dutch definitely shows some Narcissistic traits, especially the idolization/abandonment cycle where he focuses is love and adoration on one person until a new golden child comes along. You see this with how he went from dating Susan to Molly to trying to get with Mary-Beth, and how he went from Arthur to John to Micah in the end.
Honestly, I can’t find myself hating Dutch. At least, not to the level I hate Micah. When Micah died, I was ecstatic. When Dutch died, I felt nothing but sadness and pity.
As for Micah, I still wonder about a theory that Milton lied about Micah's betrayal for the purpose of letting the gang destroy itself from the inside. Maybe he wanted Abigail or Sadie to be a tool for that (that is if he indeed wanted to kill Arthur instead of letting him do it)
My least favourite theory about Dutch is that him hitting his head during the train job made him crazy, it’s like the least interesting analysis of his character and doesn’t even fully add up
Anger is natural, it's just a matter of not letting it rule you. I'm on a bit of an anger management journey of my own, though not knowing you, I can only guess at your situation, so take what you will from it.
He doesn’t. Dutch had enough money to send them all off into the sunset, buy land and hire people to build them a mansion. $42,875 is what Arthur gets for going back for the money. That’s over 13 million dollars today. He is a fighter and an idealist. He needs to fight. It’s what gives him his purpose and his meaning. ‘You can’t fight gravity’ and you can’t fight your nature.
The boat scene with bronte never made much sense to me they kidnapped him and had him tied up alone in the swamp right after they killed all of his men they were going to kill him no matter what I don't see why drowning while giving an angry speil is really so shocking
The way i see it is we have three versions of ducth. Rdr2 ducth, flamboyant and appearing smarter than he perhaps is. Epilogue dutch, cold and matter of fact as sadie says best he may not be as colourful anymore. Then we have rdr1 dutch, he returns back to his flamboyant nature think when he confronts john with the professor or when he falls off the cliff but he is still cold and not trying to play this story book hero anymore
Oh and just to add i think dutch by nature is flamboyant. Epilogue dutch is the bridge between flamboyant and nice to flamboyant and evil. He had the gang and that kept his personality nice so to speak. When that gang falters he hits a mid life crisis of sorts hence his rejection of arthur. Friends fall out all the time and when that happens they cling to the newer friends they made for dutch that would be micah. Micah fits dutch's crisis with him favouring survival over idealisms. Then when arthur dies that deepens his crisis to making dutch what we see in the Epilogue. His portrayal in rdr1 is after this mid life crisis. He retains his flamboyant nature but the way in which it is expressed is through a new found lack of empathy as he sees all his idealisms are pointless. The murder of heidi mccourt is clearly the beginning of this mid life crisis with up to abandoning arthur at cornwalls is denial. Dutch helping john kill micah is its resolution. (If that doesn't make sense then fine because i am just waffling soooo....)
I think Dutchs real failure was always failing to teach his anarchist values to Arthur (& John or the gang as a whole). Especially the many conversations just between him and Arthur really show how he never taught Arthur to question the governments actions the same way he does. Instead he just taught him that what Dutch says is correct and to follow. Without even realising that he did this, often telling Arthur "to just start thinking". And honestly that's fine not everyone can be a good teacher, I think Hosea was the teacher out of the two. And you can see that reflected in Arthurs behavior, later Dutch even says "you talk like Hosea". But if Dutch had been able to properly teach Arthur (and the gang of a whole) to question critically, he could've been a crucial support beam in the gang. Having someone else to plan the next move with (especially after Hoseas death) someone with similar values (we can see Arthur doesn't truely share Dutchs values ("they don't want folks like us no more"), sometimes it feels like he might not even know or understand Dutchs values) could've been the rock he needed to not grow so paranoid/helpless/"mad". And it could've set the gang up to survive without Dutch too. They wouldn't have been as dependant on him, which would've again also put pressure off of him. If you think about it, most of the gang doesn't know or care about his values really. Abigail walks away annoyed when he reads the books to her, she'd much rather have a house "and a regular life" and she wants that from John too. The girls are all not even included in the big thinking, instead being Grimshaws responsibility. Molly fights with him all the time too. Charles never even states if he agrees or not, he's just there to help people. Bill doesn't share many values with Dutch at all, evidenced by the conversation they have on the boat with Bill gloating "about killing those savage indians". Javier argueabley actually shares his values but Javier is a follower not a leader, he just becomes another person depending on Dutch. Ultimately no one (besides Hosea) takes on the role of a co leader or planner. Until Micah (who couldn't give two shits less about anything besides his own survival) shows up and fills this void. Seemingly becoming the person Dutch/the gang has needed all along. Ironically sharing the leading power with the others would've been the anarchist thing all along.
Dutch is loosely based on Henry David Thoreau and his philosophy Transcendentalism in the 1800s America. Thoreau believed in ‘civil disobedience’ in which you break the law in order to go against government injustice. Dutch was trying to do the same thing but he went over board in his law breaking and just became another criminal. His philosophy wasn’t necessarily the problem, it’s that he ended up using his philosophy as an excuse to be a criminal.
I like to think Dutch did truly care for the gang and Arthur and John in particular but as time moves on and the heat on them grows he finds himself desperate in his need for attaining wealth and fighting against the things he's fighting and the anxiety and desperation cause him to make worse and worse decisions worsening their chances. At a certain point it becomes blind vengeance against everyone here felt was against him. There's clear progressive change in his character and his disposition
Every single character in rockstar games is an empty-headed psychopath, there is literally no point to analyze them further. People like these games because of the freedom they grant, the story is completely secondary, and the characters could be replaced with boxes of cereal, the game would still be awesome
I know people scoff at the brain damage theory a lot - perhaps because it gets framed often as "no no he got that hit on the head and then HE IMMEDIATELY WAS A DIFFERENT PERSON" when that's incredibly reductive and simply not what happens, in the game OR in the case something like this were to happen in real life - but to me, there IS a marked difference in Dutch after the injury. I agree with everything said in this video - on top of that, though, I do think he seems to severely struggle with impulse control after the trolley accident. He's the same person he's always been - just progressively more and more frayed by his circumstances, his own ego, and eventually the grief and lack of direction Hosea's death brings - but he also feels incredibly impulsive, in a way he's never shown to be before, literally from one moment to the next. I do honestly think his frontal lobe took a hit, because the difference between pre-accident Dutch and his post-accident self is literally that - before, he takes his time to think things through, evaluate whether a specific risk is worth taking, and when he manipulates someone, it's smooth, effective, enough to make even the player as a neutral third party question whether any manipulation is happening or if he really is entirely 100% correct. After, he's impulsive, immediately jumping to the first thing he thinks of doing in any given situation, and even his manipulation skills take a hit, so much so it becomes almost cartoonish. Even before Hosea's death, listening to his reasoning sometimes feels like he's chasing a madly bouncing ping pong ball of thoughts in his own brain and trying to catch it fast enough to express what he's thinking - and yes, it could be the stress, it could be the circumstances, the pressure he's under, but the very specific way in which it manifest feels pointed to me.
I think Dutch holds deep beliefs and his love for the gang is true, but he's often in conflict with his own worse nature, and the world keeps not living up to his hopes and this makes him more and more bitter, at the world and everyone in it. He falls out of love with the gang because most of them disappoint him, and he comes to despise the world that can't live up to any of his beliefs.
Mate, he didn't do anything wrong by killing the mugger lady. Dunno WHY everyone talks about that one as if it was a horrible crime. She pulled a knife on them.
You don't know that and the thing is that is supposed to be the event that John and Arthur realize that Dutch wasn't as good as they thought and that neither was them.
@@Bacxaber oh no, what ever shall those 2 big dudes do now that a old lady who cant even really hold a knife right just pulled a knife. look, dutch could have just knocked her out or something but he just killed her, thats the point, someone who says to never harm the weak just killed a feeble old woman who clearly is crazy because she pulled a knife she can barely hold.
22:09 i don't get that one. The head detective guy say that they picked up Micha after they got back from the island but the cops finding out about the bank robbery happened before the island incident.
13:47 I kinda disagree, Milton had a lot of personality and actively chooses to kill members of the gang even when he’s not legally obligated to and he said he enjoys it and wants to kill every one of them which would lead me to believe his character is a much more personal enemy rather a representative
rd3 starts with you playing as dutch, falling at the end of rd1 , you do a qte to fight gravity and then make a time machine therefore fighting time, and go back and kill all of the founding fathers
I feel Dutch felt the pressure to give the gang the life he promised them but the constant doubting, criticism & questioning from his 'sons' pushed him to resent them
![ลองสุ่มไอโฟน 990 โกงมั้ย? [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.101 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bfsWe0j492k/mqdefault.jpg)
Note: I want to apologise for the audio quality of my microphone. My equipment is starting to show its age and I promise I’ll make a significant improvement on the next video.
It sounds like you have a plan
I always disliked the idea that Dutch was always crazy and just became more of his true self cause it makes him so much less interesting as an antagonist. I feel like his character is summed up by his final speech in RDR1. Imagine fighting for 20 years for this idea of a free world for you and your family and then having to confront the fact that it can never be, the same idea that you have recruited loads of lost and impressionable souls into and the same idea that multiple people he loved and cared about died for. That would make anyone crazy, especially someone has stubborn and idealistic as Dutch
Yes bro. This is exactly what I think about his character, nobody seems to realise this and people always forget the very political aspects of his character.
There’s this one thing that stuck with me, he always seem to not really care about his gang members dying. We saw this with Davey, Sean, Lenny, Hosea, and then Arthur
@@Amali70_4 He was very hurt by the loss of Hosea and Arthur.
Well said bro
Micah is also a big part of it too of course
genuinely this is the best analysis i have seen on dutch, i really hate it when people paint these black and white pictures of the cast because it just goes against everything rd2 is. roger clark said it best "you can be good one day and bad the next, and its not necessarily a contradiction"
Human nature isn't black and white. It's undoubtedly grey.
People aren’t good or bad; they just are.
It is really a shame, though, because Dutch was right. The Pinkertons and the Government all had their own idea of the future-a future that cared little for nature and birthed innovation and civilization. But not too far after RDR1, we'd find out they were wrong with the First World War. Innovation doesn't breed civility; it just breeds more chaos and destruction. That's their legacy.
Yes, but Dutch ultimately was no better.
@@rottensquidyeah
Interesting connection with WWI you made here.
They brought convenience and civilization but at what cost? It’s 2024 and we are finally starting to wake up and realize this isn’t the way to live. 1899 seems like total freedom to us but even back then many people saw the government as tyrannical.
@@bwc-chvd The thing is, if you eliminate government, it's a laughably short timeline before it re-emerges as a tyrannical force, exploiting the many for the sake of the few. With no law, the ruling law becomes "might makes right." The result is the same.
I always saw him as a man with noble intentions who just completely broke under the pressure of fighting change (that he was smart enough to realize was unstoppable). One thing i feel that kinda gets overlooked is the Guarma chapter. Its a tropical land that, fits what he strives for and considers a free paradise, or "tahiti" yet its full of its own problems and government and signs of progress etc, Dutch gets significantly less patient and more aggressive after guarma because I think inside his mind he knows theres nowhere left to go, there is no tahiti or virgin west for much longer not to mention he lost his oldest brother in arms Hosea that shared that dream right before. So he begins to go on the offensive and lashing out against his ideological opponents like shooting Cornwall directly and taking on the US army etc. Micah speaking into his ear was just one aspect of it that I feel gets overplayed in discussions.
Yeah i feel dutch is a good example of what happens when you are motivated by some abstract ideal/Goal or to ideal
He had a mind of the "wild west" or a free world. But ultimately the ideal world he imagined either never existed or did exist but is gone now and gone forever
At some point he realises his ideal world cant be real and maybe never ever was real.
So he lashes out in anger at the world and those he feel responsible.
Dutch is the guy that you mates with in school and 10 years later you see him down at the local train station tweaking on gear
Whenever i played the game i could never be mad at Him. Arthur never cared for the "idea" i think he just experienced the world, and lived the moment id say Arthur had romantic/artistic soul while Dutch had idealistic and autonomic proud one, he was interested in the world, he saw the change, he saw the future, he knew that if people wouldnt stand up for themselfs and fight for the freedom the gov, and the "change" would slowly take it away. He was just aware...
He knew that if he would stop fighting or show weakness, people would stop perceiving him as a symbol and figure to follow. Then this rotten world, would take his "discarded" people away and make them even more miserable, while flourishing on their pain.
He valued each person as a person not a "tool" thats why he was so disapointed in most of the camp interactions, he wanted to show them their value, that they should cherish their freedom and not be ashamed of it, be proud independent human beings that decide for themselfs. But thing is nobody really cared or understood its importance, xd. Hosea was diffrent, i dont think he even fully agreed with Dutchs philosophy, hosea accepted the way things are and just tried to make 100% of it. He also looked at people as people, not ones to be "saved" i think Hosea knew that not everyone is as such self-aware, and just wanted them to be happy. Thats why they never fully agreed, and discussed a lot, when he died i think for dutch, not only the fact that his mortal enemy took him but also he lost only person that actually understood. So it made him more disapointed, vengefull, all this stress just fueled his anger, each battle lost made him feel more hopeless and defeated, like the cornered animal.
When you are angry it seems like your field of vission shortens. You only see things that you are focused on, u dont bother abour irrevelant stuff or consequences.
You need to get things done, your way is the only way you see.
Thats why he needed people that believed in him, believed in his couse. Whats the point otherwise, i think he would just be so disapointed in humanity, "maybe they ment to be slaves, why do i even bother" thats what i think he would have thought.
If one starts doubting the rest would follow. (Platoon is strongest as is its weakest.)
And then in his mind, everything would fall apart. Thats why he needed people like micah. Id like to believe that he fully knew that micah didnt believed in shit dutch was really trying to prove and protect.
But we will never know.
I dont think Dutch ever went mad, he was just so overwhelmed, angry and fixated that he didnt saw diffrent way and felt threathned when other people would start pointing out things they were concerned about. I actually think the gang itself fought for something diffrent than Dutch, bcs if they would believe in things that Dutch did, they wouldnt fall apart. But they Didnt. They believed in Dutch, and he was in fact totally Alone, and responsible for all of their wellbeings. Micah "enabling" him was like a lifesupport at that point he needed anything. Think about it you fight for ideals, you fight for your life, try finding escape route it gets worse and worse, you dont have support in anyone but everyone demands. You lost people, only person that really knew what you were fighting for. you are loosing yourself, start doubting yourself, and everything you stand for.
You just need to keep going.
Your field of view shortens even more, you only see the target.
"People demand more, argue, get mad why cant THEY DO something?!" Maybe he even started to dislike them? Despise their weakness?
He started doubting them and their intentions. The rat.
What crashed this narrow tunnel dutch was in was none other than Arthurs death. I think it was the first time Dutch acknowleged that this time it wasnt the world that failed him. He himself failed. He was so focused on the way out that he didnt even considered how the way would look and who will actually get out.
And then he realised all his work, all those means and sacrifices, was pointless bcs there was noone around anymore, all his precious family was gone, and he killed them while trying to save them.
He finally saw their point of view, the concerns of their life, their ambitions, diffrences and things they vauled. He understood that not everyone was like him and may never be, they loved him believed in him, and he failed them. He killed them.
That was the moment he was trully defeated, he had nothing left, only himself and his values. He could gave up at this moment, let himself get swallowed by the world he was trying to resist and the world that killed his son, brother, and people who believed in him. orrr.... let go of his values bend the knee and accept his place.
Dutch chose neither, i think he stopped caring at that moment, thats why he never conected to indians in rdr1 he didnt want to "save them" he didnt want to connect again. Thats why he didnt have anyone special to him, He decided that to the end of his life he will stick to his point. He will die with it. This time alone and he would be ruthless. He wont care for others he will use other likeminded people and their anger to deal as much damage as possible to the thing he hated the most and took the most from him. Id like to think it was even his vendetta for hosea, arthur, many others and the world that has been killed. Grief and anger were only things that kept him alive, And this time he would sacrifice himself for the couse.
When it comes to pairing with micah again. i think it was intended. Micah used him and now he would do the same to him. But also, Micah was his personal failure, he needed support so much that he was blind to all the reason and the facts, If Dutch would stop listening to all those comforting and usless words Micah was feeding him and once, just once, think diffrently maybe he wouldnt have to loose his family.
But listening to micah enabling every bad thought was just easier for him. And he knew that.
At that time he wouldnt even consider Micah to be a rat. But arthur showed him how the puzzles fit. So he had to take responsabilty for his failure.
+ lets say saving jon was Arthurs last wish so he also did it for him.
Yeh thats how i percieve this
Sorry for bad eng
;)
Your english is pretty good, and your analysis of Dutch is also good. I had a similar view, because when the world comes down on you, you don't seek truth, you seek protection, support, no matter where. Because that's how Human psychology works in a way
Bunch of people villanize Dutch and calling him "crazy" or "narcisstic" just because they are ashamed they were catch by his charisma to belive his ideas could become reality. Yes, he was a talker, but he trully have belives. Mingus have very brief but spot on summary on Dutch character in video Red Dead 2 Wants You To Escape. He is what he is. I admire him, but during the game I see and understand he outlived his era and his dreams and ideas was just that - dreams. Nice, but not viable. Than I started pity him, but never hate him. I think, John went through similar path with his view on Dutch.
I ain’t reading all that
I think bottom line that Dutch was a bad man not a crazy man. That he was narcissistic but not a narcissist. That he was a romantic and idealist. Very charismatic and intelligent but suffering from doubt because of his origins. He was a bad man that knew he was bad but desperately wanted to be good. He latched onto certain ideals he admired and integrated them into himself. He did lie, to himself. He truly believed he was just misunderstood, eccentric, a seeker. The closer he came to seeing his deception, self delusion, ultimately his true self, the more he began to crack. When he was faced with the truth that he wasn't willing to sacrifice everything for love or loyalty over survival. That he wasn't an outlaw hero doing it all, giving it all, for his family. He shattered. The truth broke him
"He was a bad man that knew he was bad but desperately wanted to be good"
Is a perfect way to describe the character of Dutch!
Perfect describe of Dutch. He lied to himself. He did not dive into morals. He couldn't do that inner diving?
This is quite literally the best video essay on Dutch's character. I have never seen someone explain Dutch's mindset, ideas, morality and intentions in such a clear way. Dutch indeed wasnt just some bad person. People call his character rich and it is for a reason - its rich because there is a conflict within him, a conflict that he cannot fully understand, yet he is heavily driven by it. Thats what makes Dutch's character so well written and so interesting, its the vast collection of emotions, ideas and so much more that make his character that complicated. Amazing video, needs a lot more Recognition than it has received.
He's literally the best written character in the entire franchise and also my favourite above all, even John and Arthur. Such a poetic character.
Dutch wasn't "crazy from the start" per se, but there's tons of evidence to conclude that he wasn't as perfect as people make him out to be in the beginning of the game. His famous speech from Chapter 1 was rehearsed. In Chapter 2 he says that he expects Arthur to betray him. Also John was questioning his actions long before the start of the game. Whenever he started to get along with Jack, Dutch pulled John aside and told him to "Remember, the gang comes first". All of his so called plans didn't work out because he never wanted to leave the outlaw life. These were his failed attempts to cling on to a life that was just no longer attainable.
On the speech in Chapter 1, I don't think the fact he scripted it was a problem. They were just coming out of the most difficult situation they had faced until the end of Chapter 4, and the morale was at a massive low. He needed to be able to say the right thing at that point to keep the gang's spirits up. He needed to cover everything to make sure the speech was as good as it could be. If he said the wrong thing, or acted the wrong way, it could have spiralled in an even worse direction. The difference between the failed Blackwater heist and the failed Saint Denis heist is that Dutch managed to keep his self-control together. Losing Hosea, and then losing Lenny so quickly after (listen to how well Dutch's VA reacts to Lenny's death, it's some of his best acting in the game, and that's saying something) and having no ability to process it, or Hosea to help him through it, he broke.
Plus he also shot the innocent girl at the beginning. It was said it wasn't necessary
"Do not seek absolution..."
"Seek Redemption."
This is why I want to see a RDR3 covering events that were only hinted at in 2 but clearly _very_ important to the characters and their motivations.
Events like Arthur falling in love, raising a son, and then losing it all.
The same happening to Dutch minus the son, and Hosea... effectively making the whole original gang widowed souls.
I think all three of them were very different men, for Arthur, it hardened and broke his heart. For Hosea, it made him softer and more appreciative of the little things.
And Dutch? I think it broke him.
I think it was the first step in a long and slow journey towards the man we first saw in RDR1.
I know people say "it doesn't need a sequel" but I said that about the first game, and I still stand by it, the first Redemption was a flawless story on it's own... but now that it's a duology I can't help feeling like we've only seen two thirds of the major story so far.
I wanna see what that original gang was like, in their prime, three steps ahead of the law, fresh off the loss of their loved ones, with hot young blood like John Marston and the Callander brothers bolstering their numbers. Mac seems the prime suspect for a new protagonist that can be easily retconned into the story.
As it is in the game... Dutch is honestly kind of an asshole from the start specifically to John and Arthur, and towards the end of the game it's so obvious he sees them as foot soldiers it's hard to understand why they stick with the gang at all... A third and final chapter to the trilogy would really solidify this relationship and show where that bond stems from.
If he was always insane then wouldn't Arthur have known. Arthur was with Dutch for 20 years. Surely, there must have been at least one time when Dutch showed his true character in front of Arthur within that time.
I agree he wasn't always "insane" but even if he was, it still says more about Arthur than Dutch that Arthur was blind to it being a problem. Arthur worshipped him, and still did even when the gang had been hounded across the country.
Abused partners can stay with their abusive counterpart for longer than 20 years. By then, it's hard to recognize the need to leave, since you've invested so much of your life into them.
You also have to remember that Arthur was just a kid when he was picked up. He was still in his formative years, and lived a very hard life. He had nothing normal to compare Dutch to, and very much was given everything he had by Dutch, even the ability to read.
The commentary at the end made me tear up a little and I think it’s so amazing how people can make someone who isn’t real, and has never existed feel so human. Like you can build a person from scratch and still manage to make them so complex. Storytelling and character building is such an amazing thing and the fact you can do a character analysis and maybe even need one to understand a character better is just proof of how well Rockstar has done with this game
Thank you for coming back bro
@@theboss5823 I’d like to stay this time.
I think Dutch packed in his dreams of him and his gang settling together and winning if there was a way to win after Hosea’s death and focused only on his freedom cause without Hosea it seemed even if the gang did make freedom it just wouldn’t be the same
I'm so grateful to hear more of your pros for this game. One hell of a hiatus!
I think the whole idea is passionate idealism+ constant failure and oppression =violence,madness, and contradiction of ideals
I think the fundamental problem with Dutch is he doesnt know how to turn back or call it quit. He doubles down on everything, every impulsive thought, every blunder he makes.
To him, the need to project an aura of confidence and inspiration to the gang is so important, that he cannot afford to be caught without a plan, or worse, contradicting himself in his plans.
That is not to say he doesnt contradict himself, but that once set in a course of action he cannot afford to back down and appear as indecisive.
This leads to him being seduced into accepting a suggested course of action (a plan) that is downright foolish, just so he can shred off any accusation of indecisiveness.
That is also why he is so defensive when any of the gang that are not the "designated planners" (i.e Hosea and Arthur in the early chapters) come up with something when he can't. He feels as if they are telling him he cannot perform his role, or even worse, outright challenging him.
This wasnt as much of a problem while he had Hosea and more trust in Arthur. Who could act as "filters" for the more impulsive and nonsensical suggestions other members of the gang and dutch himself would make. But losing them made him more desperate and easier to manipulate.
Dutch saw Hosea like a father figure and Arthur as a son. Dutch feels responsible for his father and son’s death. It makes sense he was driven to insanity over their deaths.
Hosea was like the loving grandpa to everyone in the gang. Arthur was the responsible big brother to everyone in the gang. Dutch genuinely used to treat the gang like family as the father of the gang.
After the Blackwater Massacre Dutch progressively started to take advantage of them out his own desperation and depression.
Blackwater is the first time he murdered Heidi McCourt who was an innocent civilian. Dutch and the gang used to be a Robin Hood and Merry Men like criminals but he and the gang just became another typical criminals after that.
Let me say that I was initially hostile to this idea, considering that Dutch, in far too many ways, ESPECIALLY the ideological aspect of his character, reminds me of the man who abused me from childhood. But, in an effort to break the conditioning he put into me of outright ignoring things that I don't initially agree with, seeing your perspective on it makes a tad bit of sense. The idea that decades of pent up rage being released in one flash of the pan lashing out with Grima Wormtongue encouraging it all makes a lot more sense for Dutch, with one such scene reinforcing this idea. The part where he mentions getting revenge for his father's death in the battle of Gettysburg... But...
To me, even though I already believed that he genuinely cared for his gang, and that he believed in his own bluster, he was always a manipulative character. When you're getting ready to take down the O'Driscolls in the mountain and steal their train robbery plans, Arthur brings up his doubt that Colm was there for them. Dutch's response? "No, you're just doubting ME." I recognized this as a twitch on a puppet string, to immediately get him to walk back on his reasoning and instead display loyalty. A tactic that I'm all too familiar with. He CONSTANTLY emphasized that the gang should be loyal to him, never once letting them even CONSIDER the idea of doubting him. I could come up with more examples, but revisiting the similarities between my dad and Dutch is a tad too much for me to think about right now, seeing as the memories are all raw, but there are plenty of scenes around camp, particularly with John, who openly expresses his doubts to Dutch and is frequently gaslit for it, and Javier, who comes to Dutch with his confusion and is radicalized further into Dutch's ideology.
All-in-all, I agree that Dutch is a man with big dreams, who saw them all go down the toilet and lashed out over it, but even though he DOES care about his gang, DOES believe in his idea of revolution, and DID engage in altruism earlier in his "career..." A lesson I learned the hard way is that ideologies like the one Dutch subscribes to are inherently and insidiously manipulative. No preacher or prophet of such ideologies can avoid such a truth. RDR2 is as much a story about disillusionment from radicalism as it is about losing one's faith, to me.
I had my own psychotic break when I realized the the purpose my abuser gave to me was made up from wholecloth. It was pretty bad, but not Dutch bad. Coming out of it felt like a waking up from a bad dream, but still facing the consequences of it all. Since then, I've been deconstructing how I got to that point and why, and in all honesty, RDR2 sowed the seed to my own deradicalization and disillusionment with what I was raised with.
@@DopaminedotSeek3rcolonthree I’m sorry to hear you’ve had to endure something like that. That is a really fascinating analysis though, and I think perspectives like yours are actually really helpful in adding certain insights that others (meaning me) couldn’t or wouldn’t consider.
I’ve definitely formulated my opinion on Dutch based on my own experiences and I’m genuinely excited to read comments like this because I really don’t think there’s that many wrong answers in how you can interpret this character.
The way you used the music in this. Holy. You choose the perfect scores at the perfect times. This might be my favorite Dutch essay. Too many people act like he was a blood thirsty liar all along. Not enough people see he deeply cared for the gang yet despite all that chose his actions anyway. Which is so much more heartbreaking
This video perfectly sums up how I see Dutch, its a shame how much people simplify him
Dutch was always evil. However, he never faked his love for the gang and he was genuine with his thoughts against civilization.
There were however, always warning signs. In arthurs journal prior to black water he mentions they all could of bought a huge plot of land in california but dutch refused to get it saying it wasnt good enough.
Dutch also early on preasures arthur with faith and dutch caring about what arthur thinks about him. It just was at at point when arthur would do somthing no question. He keeps Micah around despite him being a red flag mainly because he feeds his ego. Micah litterally goes against his minimize damage philosophy and dutch doesnt feel revolted by micah and he has been in tge gang long enough to know what the gang thinks about him.
He also is dating molly somebody he has no interest with and he keeps making it out like it was always her fault not his.
The reason the gang also never left up until 1899 is really simple its because they beleived in dutches cause and they beleived he had it under control. He was their life and leaving him was leaving their freinds and family. There was a lot of emotional preasure for leaving a person you feel in debt to especially because for a while the gang was doing fine but, red dead 2 makes it clear the age of outlaws is coming to an end and now the world is becoming harder to run away from.
Dutch also avoids talking about the mother he killed on the boat because he knows it wasnt necesary and no amount of preasuring from micah removes the fact he chose to pull the trigger
Dutch keeps insisting on a plan he doesnt have. Dutch's near "surrender" in chapter 3 is meant to be a power flex.
Dutch is a bad guy he just doesnt want to see it that way and he genuinely beleives in his own facade. Dutch going against bronte is absalutely meant to be personal.
Dutch's need to take care of the vaunrable is not disingenous but, it doesnt have to be disingenous to be manipulative.
Especially because he orchastrates a conflict with the natives and the U.S army to purposely start a losing fight. Like its pretty apparent in the chapter that he is rationalizing it as not a self motivated action. Thats the same behavior he had for takjng people into the gang just with a new lense and
Common things cult leaders do
1. Target the vanurable shower and love and validation
2. He reminds them of the things he did for them
3. He patronizes somebody for doubting him and preasures them by mentioning faith.
4. He tries to come off always as a victim.
I dont see why having a ton of videos on dutch means he is misunderstood. The reason why theres a lot of dutch videos is simple. He is a integral charater in one of the best selling video games of all time. We have tons of WW2 books and its one of the most well documebted wars in history.
Even if you still disagree with me that dutchwas always bad. He wasnt a cartoon villian from the start he was a man who beleived he was a noble idealist.
Dutch is complex because despite his hatred for society and love for his gang. He himself beleived in his own facade
He wasnt a phycopath from thw start. Nobody would insist on that. He was a complex person who like most people dont try to veiw themselves as a villain and he rationalized who he was before losing it. The point that the begining makes with the black water massavre is to make you consider if Dutch was aleays like this. The awnser is underneath the silvertongued leader was a monster even he didnt know existed.
That is what makes dutch a compelling villian
For me, rd is not only the best video game but perhaps just the best prince of media ever made. If this was a show rather than a game it would have so much more love and appreciation from a lot more people and it would definitely compete against breaking bad as the greatest show ever. Saying this I really appreciate people on TH-cam doing deep dives and exploring the narrative and characters of the game. It makes my heart so happy
I felt the gravity part was just hinting at Dutch was gonna fall of the cliff and die
Tbh killing Bronte in hot blood never struck me as worse than killing 20 men in a robbery.
Yeah same what else were they going to do with him anyway after they killed his men and tied him up
You came back to drop a masterpiece and we're all better for it.
YO, THE LEGEND IS BACK!!
so glad youve uploaded again big man! still remember copying your fallout bases step by step back in the day lol. love the arthur video aswell pal. keep it up
wtf why does this guy have only 10k subs? Deserves way more
See you guys in 2 years for a video on john
My interpretation is that there always were moments when Dutch became unhinged, or members doubted him, or disaster/death happened to the gang, it’s just those were relatively infrequent events.
In 1899 a perfect storm happened were the was setback after setback with no recovery time between them.
I LOVE Dutch with my whole heart he's such a complex character to analyze and I feel sorry for him just like you do 🥺 he deeply cared for those he loved and everyone who says he never cared and he's always been like in chapter 6 is not grasping the whole beauty of his character and personality. You did a great job with this video and clearly have a deep understanding of Dutch.
Excellent video and analysis
This is the video I was waiting for... the misunderstanding of Dutch Van Der linde is true!!
Finally a good video on Dutch. The idea of him being a crazy narcissist is just dumb & doesn’t make any sense.
In my view Dutch always viewed himself as a kind of libertarian, gentleman outlaw who is always one step ahead and always outsmarting his enemies. At the start of his career he embodied this by embracing societies' rejects and vagabonds, redistributing wealth from the rich elite to the poor downtrodden and evading the law throughout his numerous heists and robberies. His gang was a symbol of his ideology, a group of renegades the big American civilisation had forgotten, fighting back against it. He had built this almost mythical status around him, his gang believed it and he believed it.
Throughout the events of RDR2, he faces the inevitability of the final days of the Wild West, 'Civilisation' is coming and there isn't enough space for them both. He has an elaborate plan to cunningly swindle the wealth of the Grays and Braithwaits from under their noses but he massively underestimates them and is humiliated. Then he has a run in with Bronte, who is not only a representation of this change and urbanisation but constantly mocks and belittles him and humiliates him again. His friends, family and closest followers die and lose faith in him .
His entire perception of himself was shattered, he was coming to terms with the fact that the myth of Dutch Van Der Linde was a myth and his fight and legacy would not end how he'd likely envisioned decades prior, but he was incapable of stopping, as he says 'I can't fight my own nature'. His fight against the taming of the West and his ellaborate schemes become more unhinged as this idea of what he was effectively falls apart, he was the great Dutch Van Der Linde, he always had an elaborate plan that would put him on top but for some reason none of them had been working and people are starting to lose faith in his leadership. I don't think he was lying or misleading in his early years, I just think that being a good person and caring leader were not mutually exclusive to his desire to fight change and be a romaticised idea of an outlaw, but after time they came to be and his hate and ego won out. His final years almost seem like a swan song, he knows he's going to lose but he's going out with a bang.
wow is it coincidence that I just watch your Arthur Morgan video the same time you uploaded this?
I also think the "you can't fight gravity" is also him realizing the next thing he has to do and kind of playfully wording it. "You can't fight Gravity, which I know because I have just decided to jump to my death" I may be reaching but that's how that line felt for me. Just that charismatic way of announcing it really gives "dutch" vibes to me
This is a really good analysis. You put a lot of effort into it.
Really well done video man, I was just listening to it the first time I played this as I played Quake2 with it in the background. Maybe that's why I noticed so much but really really good choice of music in this too, some of it was so haunting. Especially 18:20.
24:38 “John made it.” Best part of the entire story, and really both games if you think about it. Best game ever.
I finally finished the game so I could watch your video on Arthur. After watching it I just had to watch your take on Dutch.
I love your point of view and I think I have to agree with you!
Thank you for the great content, I'm still feeling the high of finishing this game after taking it all in over 125 hours and your videos are an extension of that pleasure ❤
You really just come out of hibernation to drop bangers
I completely agree with you and I’ve always felt this way, thank you for speaking it
When the world needed him most, he returned
I didn't pick up on this until the second playthrough but Sadie yells at the O'Driscolls in the gunfight at Hanging Dog Ranch in chapter 6 that they burnt down her home, but it was actually Micah
Personally, I agree with the explanation of his decline. But, to me, I don't think he was ever a genuine person. It feels like he was a greedy but ideological person. He does seem to believe in the anarchist views but it never came across to me as a belief that that's what will make everyone better but as what makes his life better, which is a small but very important difference. His speech at the beginning of RDR 2 is the kind of speech a cult or church leader would give to keep the flock on the path. It isn't the kind of speech that someone who is genuine gives and after it around the camp you can hear dialogue that suggest that Dutch has been showing those traits for longer than suggested in the video.
The reason Blackwater is such a high profile event is because Dutch killed innocent people when the pressure mounted. He makes speeches about being better than Colm yet let's look at even 2 moments in the intro that go against that: When Arthur gets ambushed Dutch says "don't kill him... yet." and has Arthur interrogate him, then doesn't care if you finish him off or let him go even when he's begging. Okay, enemy gang member I guess. When you rob the train and have the civs at gunpoint... again he says he doesn't care and walks off with what he wanted. That doesn't say to me he has a higher vision for society as a whole but a vision for himself and those who will follow him. He doesn't help Sadie because he actually cares about people, he helps her because it was an opportunity to recruit another vulnerable person.
It feels like a cult, intentional or not. He has a vision *for himself* and fights for that vision. He's recruited people who are in vulnerable positions and cares for them as long as they agree with him and what he wants. Hosea kept him stableish in that delusion but there were still signs before his death that Dutch is not who Arthur thinks he is. Dutch never "went crazy" Even taking his own claimed goal. He says he wants a good life for them away from the law... yet he never actually makes an effort to move out west and settle. He just keeps making excuses for more money and moving further east.
He likes being an outlaw. He likes luxury and money. He sees himself as the good guy. But he can't handle change. He didn't "go crazy" like people say, the mask fell off and people just didn't notice all the slips. Though to be fair I knew Dutch from RDR 1 first so I was looking at everything he did with skepticism from the start so biased lol. Dutch is very good at DARVO and it's shown in pretty much every chapter when people disagree or question him. It just gets way more obvious things're not going well as the game goes on.
This vid needs more views, goes against the grain of the other Dutch red dead vids which I like. It's also well argued.
RDR2 being the first RDR i played... i think dutch did go insane. It all started on the Ferry job where he shot a woman. Which he then completely fails to cope with.
He is back 🤩
Welcome back 🎉
I think that Dutch also mirrors Aurthur but as a man who thinks on his life and the guilt that includes, concludes that redemption is impossible. The narrative foil to the themes of the franchise. He sees himself as an evil who can only ever be an evil man. Thus he does evil things, because that's what he is
Finally a video defending my all time favorite character
I agree for the most part, I will say though that Dutch definitely shows some Narcissistic traits, especially the idolization/abandonment cycle where he focuses is love and adoration on one person until a new golden child comes along. You see this with how he went from dating Susan to Molly to trying to get with Mary-Beth, and how he went from Arthur to John to Micah in the end.
Honestly, I can’t find myself hating Dutch. At least, not to the level I hate Micah. When Micah died, I was ecstatic. When Dutch died, I felt nothing but sadness and pity.
The most pivotal moment for Dutch is obviously the death of Hosea 12:17
As for Micah, I still wonder about a theory that Milton lied about Micah's betrayal for the purpose of letting the gang destroy itself from the inside. Maybe he wanted Abigail or Sadie to be a tool for that (that is if he indeed wanted to kill Arthur instead of letting him do it)
10/10, just finished the game and this explains everything for me
My least favourite theory about Dutch is that him hitting his head during the train job made him crazy, it’s like the least interesting analysis of his character and doesn’t even fully add up
I personally have a lot in common with Dutch. Especially the anger. No matter how hard I try to find my redemption, the anger remains.
🤓
Anger is natural, it's just a matter of not letting it rule you. I'm on a bit of an anger management journey of my own, though not knowing you, I can only guess at your situation, so take what you will from it.
You wouldn’t wike me when I’m angwy 😡😤😤🐺🐺🐺
Good to see you back
Who is the man he WOULD have been had he made it to Tahiti? Thats what I want to know, what does laid back “job well done” Dutch look like?
He doesn’t. Dutch had enough money to send them all off into the sunset, buy land and hire people to build them a mansion. $42,875 is what Arthur gets for going back for the money. That’s over 13 million dollars today.
He is a fighter and an idealist. He needs to fight. It’s what gives him his purpose and his meaning. ‘You can’t fight gravity’ and you can’t fight your nature.
The goat returns
Top tier mate 👌
Finally a video not saying "Dutch was always crazy blahblahblah"
The boat scene with bronte never made much sense to me they kidnapped him and had him tied up alone in the swamp right after they killed all of his men they were going to kill him no matter what I don't see why drowning while giving an angry speil is really so shocking
The way i see it is we have three versions of ducth. Rdr2 ducth, flamboyant and appearing smarter than he perhaps is. Epilogue dutch, cold and matter of fact as sadie says best he may not be as colourful anymore. Then we have rdr1 dutch, he returns back to his flamboyant nature think when he confronts john with the professor or when he falls off the cliff but he is still cold and not trying to play this story book hero anymore
Oh and just to add i think dutch by nature is flamboyant. Epilogue dutch is the bridge between flamboyant and nice to flamboyant and evil. He had the gang and that kept his personality nice so to speak. When that gang falters he hits a mid life crisis of sorts hence his rejection of arthur. Friends fall out all the time and when that happens they cling to the newer friends they made for dutch that would be micah. Micah fits dutch's crisis with him favouring survival over idealisms. Then when arthur dies that deepens his crisis to making dutch what we see in the Epilogue. His portrayal in rdr1 is after this mid life crisis. He retains his flamboyant nature but the way in which it is expressed is through a new found lack of empathy as he sees all his idealisms are pointless. The murder of heidi mccourt is clearly the beginning of this mid life crisis with up to abandoning arthur at cornwalls is denial. Dutch helping john kill micah is its resolution.
(If that doesn't make sense then fine because i am just waffling soooo....)
I think Dutchs real failure was always failing to teach his anarchist values to Arthur (& John or the gang as a whole).
Especially the many conversations just between him and Arthur really show how he never taught Arthur to question the governments actions the same way he does. Instead he just taught him that what Dutch says is correct and to follow. Without even realising that he did this, often telling Arthur "to just start thinking".
And honestly that's fine not everyone can be a good teacher, I think Hosea was the teacher out of the two. And you can see that reflected in Arthurs behavior, later Dutch even says "you talk like Hosea".
But if Dutch had been able to properly teach Arthur (and the gang of a whole) to question critically, he could've been a crucial support beam in the gang. Having someone else to plan the next move with (especially after Hoseas death) someone with similar values (we can see Arthur doesn't truely share Dutchs values ("they don't want folks like us no more"), sometimes it feels like he might not even know or understand Dutchs values) could've been the rock he needed to not grow so paranoid/helpless/"mad". And it could've set the gang up to survive without Dutch too. They wouldn't have been as dependant on him, which would've again also put pressure off of him.
If you think about it, most of the gang doesn't know or care about his values really. Abigail walks away annoyed when he reads the books to her, she'd much rather have a house "and a regular life" and she wants that from John too. The girls are all not even included in the big thinking, instead being Grimshaws responsibility. Molly fights with him all the time too. Charles never even states if he agrees or not, he's just there to help people. Bill doesn't share many values with Dutch at all, evidenced by the conversation they have on the boat with Bill gloating "about killing those savage indians".
Javier argueabley actually shares his values but Javier is a follower not a leader, he just becomes another person depending on Dutch.
Ultimately no one (besides Hosea) takes on the role of a co leader or planner. Until Micah (who couldn't give two shits less about anything besides his own survival) shows up and fills this void. Seemingly becoming the person Dutch/the gang has needed all along.
Ironically sharing the leading power with the others would've been the anarchist thing all along.
Dutch is loosely based on Henry David Thoreau and his philosophy Transcendentalism in the 1800s America.
Thoreau believed in ‘civil disobedience’ in which you break the law in order to go against government injustice. Dutch was trying to do the same thing but he went over board in his law breaking and just became another criminal.
His philosophy wasn’t necessarily the problem, it’s that he ended up using his philosophy as an excuse to be a criminal.
I like to think Dutch did truly care for the gang and Arthur and John in particular but as time moves on and the heat on them grows he finds himself desperate in his need for attaining wealth and fighting against the things he's fighting and the anxiety and desperation cause him to make worse and worse decisions worsening their chances. At a certain point it becomes blind vengeance against everyone here felt was against him. There's clear progressive change in his character and his disposition
It’s a shame we can’t hogtie Micah and leave him in Sadie’s house in the beginning of the game.
He’s back!
Every single character in rockstar games is an empty-headed psychopath, there is literally no point to analyze them further. People like these games because of the freedom they grant, the story is completely secondary, and the characters could be replaced with boxes of cereal, the game would still be awesome
I know people scoff at the brain damage theory a lot - perhaps because it gets framed often as "no no he got that hit on the head and then HE IMMEDIATELY WAS A DIFFERENT PERSON" when that's incredibly reductive and simply not what happens, in the game OR in the case something like this were to happen in real life - but to me, there IS a marked difference in Dutch after the injury. I agree with everything said in this video - on top of that, though, I do think he seems to severely struggle with impulse control after the trolley accident. He's the same person he's always been - just progressively more and more frayed by his circumstances, his own ego, and eventually the grief and lack of direction Hosea's death brings - but he also feels incredibly impulsive, in a way he's never shown to be before, literally from one moment to the next. I do honestly think his frontal lobe took a hit, because the difference between pre-accident Dutch and his post-accident self is literally that - before, he takes his time to think things through, evaluate whether a specific risk is worth taking, and when he manipulates someone, it's smooth, effective, enough to make even the player as a neutral third party question whether any manipulation is happening or if he really is entirely 100% correct. After, he's impulsive, immediately jumping to the first thing he thinks of doing in any given situation, and even his manipulation skills take a hit, so much so it becomes almost cartoonish. Even before Hosea's death, listening to his reasoning sometimes feels like he's chasing a madly bouncing ping pong ball of thoughts in his own brain and trying to catch it fast enough to express what he's thinking - and yes, it could be the stress, it could be the circumstances, the pressure he's under, but the very specific way in which it manifest feels pointed to me.
I wish real life looked as good and realistic as red dead redemption
I think Dutch holds deep beliefs and his love for the gang is true, but he's often in conflict with his own worse nature, and the world keeps not living up to his hopes and this makes him more and more bitter, at the world and everyone in it. He falls out of love with the gang because most of them disappoint him, and he comes to despise the world that can't live up to any of his beliefs.
man, Dutch really lost his sense of style between RDR 1 & 2
Intriguing and great watch and listen. Like to see more boss
the man literally did nothing wrong. He didn't betray anyone and he acted like any reasonable gang leader would in almost all of these scenarios.
I had a goddamn PLAN!!!!!!!!!!
Mate, he didn't do anything wrong by killing the mugger lady. Dunno WHY everyone talks about that one as if it was a horrible crime. She pulled a knife on them.
You don't know that and the thing is that is supposed to be the event that John and Arthur realize that Dutch wasn't as good as they thought and that neither was them.
@@issyd2366 I don't know what, that she pulled a knife on them? Yeah I fuckin' do.
@@Bacxaber oh no, what ever shall those 2 big dudes do now that a old lady who cant even really hold a knife right just pulled a knife.
look, dutch could have just knocked her out or something but he just killed her, thats the point, someone who says to never harm the weak just killed a feeble old woman who clearly is crazy because she pulled a knife she can barely hold.
@@Hocket She asked for it by pulling the knife. That was her being stupid. That isn't on Dutch.
@@Bacxaber yeah it is, but it dosnt excuse him just killing her outright, he clearly wasnt in danger, she was just dumb and desperate.
The only burning question that comes to mind, is depsite all the setbacks was he right in the end?
please make more videos like this🙏🙏
Wait, you don't think narcissist is only a cold-blooded person who can't think of how they can move people, right?
22:09 i don't get that one. The head detective guy say that they picked up Micha after they got back from the island but the cops finding out about the bank robbery happened before the island incident.
Here before this blows up
I think he does care. But he's kinda dumb yet we'll spoken.
Why did Dunce betray his own family? Is he stupid?
Bro what happened to your microphone
You might wanna fix the audio in this
13:47 I kinda disagree, Milton had a lot of personality and actively chooses to kill members of the gang even when he’s not legally obligated to and he said he enjoys it and wants to kill every one of them which would lead me to believe his character is a much more personal enemy rather a representative
music is a bit too loud
Whats name of that epic/sad Song?
@@PaulSouls24 check the description for all the songs I used, but sounds like it might be ‘Doctor’s Opinion’ by Colin Stetson.
What happened to the mic?
rd3 starts with you playing as dutch, falling at the end of rd1 , you do a qte to fight gravity and then make a time machine therefore fighting time, and go back and kill all of the founding fathers
I feel Dutch felt the pressure to give the gang the life he promised them but the constant doubting, criticism & questioning from his 'sons' pushed him to resent them
As much as everything you say here has some truth to it, everything he says, with different perspective sounds like a cult leader.
Get a better mic man
His mic is fine