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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มี.ค. 2024
- Why did dutch van der linde shoot micah bell in red dead redemption 2? Did dutch avange arthur morgan by killing micah? was dutch able to redeem himself by taking care of micah for all that he did to the van der linde gang in red dead redemption 2.
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i think on that mountain while arthur was dying he realized how he failed his first member and first son, thats why he was speachless after arthur said “i gave you all i had”
than why he wait so long to shoot Micah?...it was 8 years after the fact
@@NCYunginOn that mountain in 1899 he is clearly confused and traumatised. A few years later he found Micah and made his plan.
@@NCYungin he had so many emotions in him anger, sadness, guilt, stress etc he was probably so traumatized he barely could stand up straight
@@checo8383So it took him 8 years to decide to kill him?
@@TriCopfirst: John was Arthurs son. Dutch had to kill the son of Arthur. And the only family in his family
Secondly: dutch still had Deals and dreams to come true, thats why micah and dutch cooperated. Not love.
3rd: dutch is destroyed, when he saw his Gang getting killed he lost his shit, when he saw his old gang rioting against micah; he saw (dutch) he was wrong
It’s cool how Dutch left John with all of that money. It was the only apology he was going to get.
Nah inflation got so out of hand that the money from blackwater weren't enough to get a trip to Tahiti this is also the same reason why the 10000$ Arthur had in his back pocket weren't enough
@@nobody-yk2hu🤣
"Takes a whole crate of pure gold to buy a Tennese Whiskey nowadays"
@@nobody-yk2hu
it wasn't an apology, he just no longer cared. he came to get revenge on Micah for playing him like a fiddle
@@aaron75fy either theory works, but you’re likely correct.
I think he solely did it for Arthur. You saw the conflict in his eyes as Arthur was dying on the mountain. Dutch realized his mistakes and upon years of reflection, took it upon himself to redeem Arthur and the gang in that small way. The game is called Red Dead Redemption (2) and I don’t think it’s just about Arthur in this case. Dutch goes crazy in the end but this is the only “redemption” he would be able to achieve being the character he is.
dutch also threw himself off the mountain in the first game so that john wouldnt have to shoot him. saving him from the grief
@@natef1212I never thought of that
damn thats a pretty good analysis
@@Not-Kurosawa Thank you
And Arthur was dead so he couldent do anything to help him
Dutch either shot Micah out of guilt/realisation, of how Micah manipulated and alienated him from the rest of the gang - Arthur and John the most. Or it was realising that Michah was done for and time to cut him loose.
Probably because he was fooled and realized Micah was done. Anything Dutch did towards the middle to late game was self serving.
It’s because he got played by him, just like how Bronte played him and Dutch got revenge. Dutch is a vengeful person
@@josephstalin2606 “Revenge is a fools game”- says Dutch
Gets revenge anytime anyone crosses him- also Dutch
I think it’s both. Bruh was tired of killing family AND Micah just lost all his guys. Easy choice
@@robwatts5281 Arthur says Revenge is a fools game not Dutch
"There goes the greatest man we know... ...even he's lost" - Uncle, talking about Dutch.
Arthur was twice the man Dutch was
@joekuvorkian no, arthur was no different from Dutch.
@@mastermace7770 somebody has no media literacy
@@mastermace7770have you eveb played chapter 6 or the game for that matter?
@@mastermace7770 arthur and ditch couldn't be any more different
I think what really changed Dutch was Hosea death
No doubt. The look on his face when hosea gets shot. He was losing it before then but truly broke after that moment. The scene in lagras of Dutch playing chess by himself really illustrated how lost and deranged he had become.
Hosea kept them all together and Dutch under control
I don’t think it’s the death of Hosea the issue, but the fact that Hosea is not anymore there to hold back Dutch
@@matteocontarin9866 Well yes, the death of Hosea means no Hosea bro
True
Dutch was already there to kill Micha "same as you, I suppose". I think it was just because he was the rat, simple as that. He blamed Micha for the gang falling apart, much like most players do. Also likely to shift the guilt over to Micha for his own failure.
I mean look at RDR1 with the old gang members, everyone has more or less turned crazy, bloodthirsty criminals. Like Rains Fall said to Arthur: "We become more of who we are". Dutch was always a blame-shifting stonecold criminal who used others to suit his needs but he didn't fully shrug of the facade until Chapter 6.
It wouldn't make sense for Micah to say that they got together again and for him to keep the gun down on Micah until he shot the rat.
I believe he went to get satisfaction, still doubting whether Micah betrayed him or not, but he finally comes to his senses when John arrives and they have that dialogue.
He is essentially doing exactly the same as John during the Epilogue.
He's trying to catch up with old members of the gang and trying to get revenge on whoever caused the fall.
He's just unsure of who that actually was, too stubborn to realise he played such a big part.
Their stories during the Epilogue kinda parallel eachother. John found some of the "good" members, whilst Dutch found the "bad" ones.
@@Justarandom69
Great analysis!
yup, I think his massive ego could not bear being fooled and manipulated by Micah so he used Micah to get the gold back and was just waiting for an opportunity to kill him for vengeance. I think this is confirmed by Dutch leaving the money to John thereby washing his hands of Arthur's death. And then notice in rdr1 Dutch is no longer influenced by anyone any more. No more Evelyn miller's no more hoseas or Micahs, Dutch has become ideologically lost in rdr1
I loved how Dutch shot Micah and had nothing to say about it. It showed how Dutch who always shows himself to have all the answers to every question had nothing left to offer, he was a broken man. But it also shows him as an enigma who no one really understood, Dutch probably did not even understand himself too well... Unlike Arthur who had incredible amounts of self-reflection throughout the game.
Dutch has no diary to speak of, no journal. The only insight we get in regard to the inner workings of his mind are brief radiant dialogues in the camp, and the perception of his gradual descent through the eye's of Arthur. Dutch was no enigma, but the game is about the gradual destruction of the gang, though Arthur's perspective. We can only speculate upon what Dutch would have thought about in numerous moments and we also need to remember just how much Micah is going out of his way to discolour Dutch's perception of even his right hand man. Just what exactly does Micah say to Dutch, in many moments?
Micah's this wheedling suck up constantly trying to ingratiate himself and sow doubt in Dutch's mind about many of the other gang members. We can divulge all that also from many radiant dialogue moments in camp. Note how NO ONE seems to like or even wan't to tolerate Micah? It's because he's always bad mouthing everyone else to Dutch, always criticising always sowing seeds of doubt.
Him shooting Micah close to the end of the epilogue is the way Dutch admits if only to himself that Micah is responsible for everything that goes wrong. It all goes south once he's in the gang. But he only shoots Micah once, and not fatally, because he knows John wants vengeance too.
I think he just remembered Micah wasn't in RDR1.
All joking aside I feel like people overlook the fact Charles and Sadie are in the final mission and are both characters who aren't in RDR1 so you don't know they're safe and they get shot and stabbed respectively.
I really think Rockstar was trying to tease players into worrying that they were all going to die in that mission. But I've never seen another player who even picked up on it.
I mean I see what your saying but honestly I don't agree. Sadie and Charles didn't die. That's why no one picked up on it. Your complaining about people not picking up on something that didn't happen. I jsut don't think this comment adds anything. The Micah joke is funny tho
We see what happens to Sadie and charles they are alive
@@thewolf4325 Sorry I probably didn't explain myself very well.
Yes Sadie and Charles do not die. But when you're playing the game for the first time, you don't know that. Then in the final mission, one gets shot and the other is stabbed and at Micah's mercy.
I *think* Rockstar wanted you to fear that they weren't going to make it. Seeing as most of the other gang members who weren't in RDR1 all died. Lenny, Sean, Hosea, Susan, Strass etc.
Since there's zero tension whatsoever that anything can happen to John or Jack or Abigail. I think Charles and Sadie were supposed to be stakes that you were nervous about. But no one picked up on it because the focus was on John and Micah
@@bigrigjoe5130I honestly believe this comment is right on the mark, when playing the epilogue, even if you haven’t played RDR1 you already know johns not going to die, so it makes the mission less plot driven, having Charles and Sadie get injured gives some real tension to the mission
@@bigrigjoe5130 I understand what you are trying to say I was a little confused by the first comment
One thing that’s just heartbreaking is that alongside Arthur’s line “I gave you all I had.” Molly also said “I gave you all” in a poem. Dutch was morally gutshot twice realizing he let the woman he loved essentially kill herself and he also betrayed a son that for a long time he truly loved.
Dutch also said “I gave you all I had” in one of his rants, pretty sad stuff
@@koli4213also one of strauss-debt victims' wife says to arthur (the player arthur) "Arthur (victim) gave everything"
@yigit-nh2vn that's the wife of the guy who Infected arthur right?
@@Antboi4653 No, that's the guy who died from repaying the debt (we never meet him), in the coal mines of Annenberg
@FIGHTCLUB659 oh, thank you for telling me
Here's a thought, Dutch was pretty quiet during the stand-off at one point. I imagine he might be asking himself some questions about how he and Micah were found, probably deducing that Micah must have talked and hearing John bring up Arthur might've reminded him of Arthur telling him that Micah's the rat, thus, what we see. Can't explain the just dipping out though.
Maybe he peaced out because he was disgusted with himself?
lol you just made up a scenario that didn’t happen. You even went as far as creating thoughts in Dutch head. Why do theories based on hypotheticals
@@Co-GlizzyIt’s called a fan theory lol. Get that stick out of your autistic ass and just have fun with it, don’t worry too much about details with fan work😂💀
Nope he confirms in one of the dialogues that he was there for the same reason as John
@@Co-Glizzy Literally this whole video is making up theories based on what COULD have been dutches thought process
Think that dutch likely was with micah for a while waiting for a chance to kill him. Micah had a big gang, if he shoots micah he's toast. He still wants to live, but he wanted revenge
Micah mentioned "all manner of folk making social calls", hinting that Dutch showed up relatively to quite soon before John showed up.
Very good analysis. :)
Also, Dutch confirms he was going to kill Micah, John asked him What are you doing here? And Dutch said same as you confirming he was going to kill him
That actually makes sense, with Micah’s gang all killed my John he had his chance
Why did John have to convince dutch in the standoff then
4:12 the moment when they realised it was actual funny
I think it also goes to show, in that scene,that John and Arthur are smart fellows. Both for catching onto Dutch and also not for blowing themselves up 😂
I don't think that Dutch ever believed that Micah ratted on the gang (he seems a little sad when he shoots Micah and he shoots a look of utter contempt at John when the latter thanks him). Since Rockstar considers the high honor/help John escape ending canon, I think he sided with John because of what Arthur said about giving Dutch all he had.
Dutch realized Arthur truly gave everything for him and was truly like a son to him and that Micah only ever took for himself. Yet Dutch failed to make the right choice and take a side then.
I think Dutch shot Micah to make things up to Arthur in a way. To choose a side and to try to make Arthur's final sacrifice for John count. After all, by RDR1, Dutch no longer cares about money.
Dutch shot Micah for purely selfish reasons. He did not care about anyone but himself. Never did.
@@frankgrimes7388and which selfish reason do you think that is?
@@mattl8774he's a narcissist dude, everything is about himself, his ego.
@@JHS270694 you think he shot him for being embarrassed that the ultimate manipulator was finally manipulated by someone else?
During the dialogue, John says, what are you doing here Dutch says same as I suppose literally confirming he was going to kill Micah I think it’s both he did it for Arthur, but mostly for himself
the way they both look at the dynamite and decide it's probably not a good idea to smoke
In my opinion I think it was for both Arthur and Sadie. Arthur's death had haunted Dutch for the last eight years and when his name was brought up during their final confrontation of the game, Dutch finally came to his senses for a brief moment and realized he let Micah lead him astray ultimately causing the downfall of the gang. He knew he had already failed Arthur and if anything, he could at least do a couple good things in the end (save Sadie and leave her and John the money). Even on my first playthrough of RDR2 I noticed how Dutch gave John a cross look on his face after John told him "Thank you...I..." to me it seemed Dutch was thinking "I didn't do it for you John I did it for her!"
I always thought that he shot micah because he mentions Arthur
He also looks at Micah right after he says "Arthur's been dead a long time." don't believe those trolls saying it's a coincidence, look up thousands of american venom videos NONE of them doesn't have that look. it happens other times, sure, but it DEFINETLY happens when he says that line.
Though, he was there to kill micah. "why are you here dutch?" to "same as you, i suppose."
I'm sure Dutch did that to redeem himself, killing Micah.
Also, John talks about Dutch being not a bad person in RDR1. Dutch killing Micah was perfect example he wasn't just manipulated but still got to do that.
@@KeyUploads I don't agree with people that Dutch went there to kill Micah.
When he says, "Same as you, I suppose" I believe he just came to get satisfaction from Micah, whether he really was a rat or not.
A "friendly" conversation where he was being manipulated again, or it wouldn't make sense for Micah to say that they had team up once more.
When John arrives, Dutch hears John's words and sees Micah mocking Arthur's death, finally coming to his senses.
@@Justarandom69same I would agree that something triggerd him to kill Micah when John was talking or when Dutch realized what happend he was sick of it and wanted to end it
Same lol
@@Justarandom69 bro you relize micah was still working for the pinkertons,,why would he come and speak tothe rat of the gang who got everyone killed ??? dutch valued loyalty right so why the hell would he come just to chat up micah ??? micah only met up with dutch to get the pinkertons to get him,,,
John: "What are you doing here Dutch?"
Dutch: "Same as you i suppose"
My theory is the normal theory,
loose ends with micah.
Guilt and a mix of schizophrenia perhaps
I mean what's interesting here is that here he could have shot John as well (which he does if you shoot Micah before he does) but didn't but still had a sour face. Years later he activetly goes after John with total, undisputed intent to kill. My guess is he didn't care for money anymore and spared John & Sadie because of Arthur
@@supersuede6493RDR1 Doesn’t make any sense anymore since RDR2 came out though
he was using him to get money from black water
@@user-mz7hi2ks5mIn what way?
Where tf does schizophrenia come into play? Lol
Plot twist, he was aiming for Sadie but the arthritis kicked in.
He realized he has to shoot either John or Micah. He chose Micah out of his love for John. That’s exactly why he abandoned all the money - his plan changed right there and then
I don't think Dutch loved John anymore after being broken out of prison. They were both angry at each other and Dutch even gave John a hardened stare as he walked off without saying a word while John was thanking him for his help
If u shoot Micah during the standoff then Dutch shoots John for a failed scene and said “oh son….” With a sad look and regret on his face
no bro ,,by the 4th chapter dutch did not like john
@@dno7567 He wanted to pretend he was Red Harlow for a min
“It was never about the money John”🤓
@@dno7567dutch never loving John is completely untrue he definitely lost his trust in John after the robbery of Saint denis and wanted him to cut loose but he always like John that's why u see arthur being somewhat jealous of John being dutch favorite even In rdr 1 John always mentions the good part of dutch
Dutch says to John that he never took him as and errand boy
i always think it was also jealousy of Micah is why Dutch shot him. look at the power dynamics at the beginning of the game. Micha was at the bottom of Dutch's gang hated and laughed at by everyone and only because of the will of Dutch that Micah could ride with them. and slowly through sucking up Micah worked his way to second man replacing Arthur. and as this happen Dutch's gang weakened to the point of collapsing. next thing you know Micah is now in charge of his own gang and it is larger then Dutch's original gang and Dutch now has to play second fiddle to Micah. this must of hurt his ego, Dutch in his mind has to be the king of his castle. this nobody within 6 months destroyed everything Dutch had created replaced his legacy with his own and now Dutch has been forced to be his follower because he has no one else to ride with him. Micah then obviously was hand picking member of his new gang that were only loyal to him not Dutch, Dutch was just a nobody in the eyes of Micah's new gang and he was only allowed to be a member because of the will of Micah. now Dutch is in the weaker position a complete reversal of events. no way this did not hurt Dutch's ego. Dutch was just wating for the perfect moment to put a bullet in him I believe. he hated that this man out smarted him, usurped him and then knowing Micah's personality probably rubbed it in his face every single day, making refences to his failed gang. Micah and his gang probably even had nick names for Dutch that he and his loyal gang members bullied him with everyday. Dutch was probably seen as a joke in Micah's gang. a failed leader while Micah was now the king, the great leader. a complete 180 in power dynamics.
Damn what a great comment
Reach
Dutch wasnt in Micahs gang. He showed up not too long before John.
@@hustler666100he went with them back to blackwater to pick up the money then Rhode back to the gang's hideout. he most likely spent a few weeks with them plenty of time for Micah to poke him on the events of his former gang.
@@hustler666100really?
When I think of Dutch, I think of a man who had a plan for everything except for dealing with the consequences of the unknown that grew bigger and bigger till he started losing it. Micah helped things along, but when Dutch would say "I...WE" when he corrected himself on different accounts, I think that's a small indicator that deep down, he always had his self interest in mind, but he had to correct himself because he remembered oh yeah, I gotta help these people too. Micah knew this, and so he just quietly tried to push Dutch into his line of thinking, especially after somehow getting his ear. I think Micah was trying to prove survival is better than whatever Dutch's fantasy of what his idea of a free world is.
So yeah, I think it was a mix of both personally. Even if Micah wasn't there, the Pinkertons still had their eye on the Van der line gang, and Dutch would have just been dealing with more and more pressure trying to pretend everything's fine till he broke. Micah basically just sped things along with his crazy schemes. Him shooting Micah to me said he finally realized Micah was pulling the strings. He tried to ignore it, but then his past caught up to him AGAIN via John because of Micah. Dutch's father was a hero to him, so that's what he wanted to be, but he was too self absorbed to pull it off, and Micah basically just waltzed in and twisted everything he stood for and he let it happen. But again, he knew his true nature was going to be the end of him. He found out he wasn't a hero, which I think is why he just didn't feel anything when he killed the guy and left John out there. Like he said, "You can't fight gravity" or another phrase that suits I think is, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Ngl that was the biggest plot twist for me when he shot him. I said “Huh!?”😦😦😦
I said “FUCK YEAH HE HAD A GOOD PLAN FOR ONCE!”
@@CheezDoodlezz i actually dont think it was planned it felt spur of the moment. If it was planned Dutch would have walked off with the blackwater money
@theoutsiderjess4869 Bad writing, and the millionth example of John Marston having absolutely zero agency in this game. Besides the fact everybody in general can't lift a finger without Arthur, John especially can't do anything without him, whether it's restoring faith in his wife in her own husband or spending time with his son (or saving said son from being kidnapped) or saving his own life, or hell having his own unique hat 🥴 Sure I absolutely adore Big Daddy Arthur, but they had him eclipse John like some insanely Chad older brother, the older brother who naturally happens to be the star QB on the high school football team and drives a sports car and has a six pack of abs with footlong dong, while John is the pimple faced-2nd string wide receiver-boy who most people are really only nice to because they like Chad.
@@theoutsiderjess4869 Well, John arriving definitely wasn't planned but he probably would've still Shot Micah even if he didn't come for him
@@CommanderLongJohn no.
I think it's as Dutch says in his you can't fight change speech - all he has ever done is fight and can't give up that fight no matter how feudal it is to do so.
John did ask Dutch why he was there and he state “same as you I suppose” , and we all know John was there to kill Micah and end his life for what he did years prior , to the gang and Arthur
Entertaining and thoughtful analysis/ thought experiment! You got me wanting to play through the story again.
Unrelated to your video's material, you've got a great voice. You don't sound far from a young Hosea! Keep it up, take care of your voice. God bless!
Wonderful video, I just wonder if that bump in Saint Denis assisted in any way in bringing out his true ideals. He had been spiraling since the beginning, but in my vision it was a lot quicker after the loss of Hosea and the trolley incident.
he sent Micah to the "Mega Gay Zone"
"Not the Gay Zone"
" thats it micah youre going to the *MEGA GAY ZONE* "
Remember, son, dying is gay.
Fuck outta here and go to the
*MEGA GAY ZONE*!
Sauce or loss with The van DER Linde gan
Dutch is a very interesting character I couldn’t imagine what he was feeling after Arthur’s death he didn’t care who he killed
Man, I love this game and all of its nuances that make videos like this even possible. Great video, I'm glad it was in my recommendations section. Cheers!
fire post pulled me back into the peak that is rdr2 lore analysis
It's so great that this game is still sparking theories and analyses years after its release which you couldn't really say for a lot of story based games
That last quote of yours, something like "John, Charles, Sadie, they all attribute the downfall to Micah" I think that explains why he shot Micah. Dutch knew since 1899 that everyone hated Micah, that they saw him as the problem and on some level after 8 years of introspection I think he began to see that, but he still liked Micah, got along well with him. Enough to retrieve the money with him after all those years.
After seeing John and Sadie, and being reminded of Arthur, I think he thought about how they were his true family, and how they think of Micah. He was brought back to the old gang in that moment, and decided to act on the popular opinion of his old family. He gave Micah what he had coming to him, what the old gang thought he deserved, for the old gang, the family. One last decision for the good of the gang. I think for a moment it brought him back to the head of the Van der Linde gang. It was against his own wishes however, and I think he resented it. Evidenced by the look on his face toward John as he walked away. But he did it for John, for Arthur, Sadie, for everyone who used to call him family, but he didn't enjoy doing it. Remember this quote from RDR1:
[ROSS] So in the end, you didn't have the guts to shoot him. (Dutch)
[JOHN] When the opportunity presents itself, I'll put a bullet in him. I wont like myself for doing it, but I'll do it.
I think in this moment, with John showing up like a ghost from the past and summoning the memory of Arthur with him, I think Dutch made an impulsive decision much like John had to later make toward killing Dutch. He didn't want to shoot Micah, but his family did. And so he did it for them. And then he walked away with a face of pungent disgust, seemingly communicating "There. that what you wanted? I killed the only one who stood by me. Hope you're happy because I'm not."
i read that final line ins Dutch's voice
John doesn't "kill" Dutch in RDR1. Dutch kills Dutch. I also don't believe that Dutch in "any" capacity" was a friend of Micah's. I think it was his intent to play a long game. I don't believe he helped Micah retrieve anything. Consider the line of Micah's where he stipulates that John and Sadie and Charles were not the "only" visitors that day. Dutch showed up to talk with Micah. And in Micah's mind he's thinking "duped him again" but as I said, Dutch is thinking of a LONG game.
But then John and Sadie turn up, and Micah's gang are all shot up. Dutch's plan for a long game, which undoubtedly had something to do with him getting a CLEAR answer about Micah's involvement in how things went south, changes in that standoff. Undoubtedly when Micah said that "Arthur's long dead and gone" with zero indication in his voice [Micah's] that such phases him. For Dutch it was as good an answer to his mind, or as good as any answer COULD be that Micah "admitted" that he was the rat. Dutch doesn't even look when he shoots Micah. To my mind he "can't" look or he would have filled Micah with every bullet he had. And he said to John earlier "same reason as you".
He WANTS John to get to shoot Micah by the time that Dutch is walking away, the look on his face, to John, is as much self resentment as it is anger [at John] for making Dutch face his demons. [You only get the Dutch shoots John fail state if the player wrongly interprets what the standoff is about, and shoots Micah, but that's more clever scripting disguised as Dutch's urge for self preservation, than anything else. We're SUPPOSED to have the dramatic dialogue, and the switching between Dutch and Micah]
@@Requiemslovethe ending that’s what I did switch the gun to Dutch only to say something than switch right back to micha
I like that it’s ambiguous. The charismatic and charming Dutch from the early game is gone, whether because he changed or because he showed his true self. I like that the game doesn’t have him give a clear reason for why he does what he does, I bet even *he* doesn’t know.
It's not "that" ambiguous. We get numerous radiant dialogue moments in camp which highlights Dutch's deteriorating mental state. By the end of the epilogue, IMO Dutch has at that point never been more clear in focus. He shoots Micah because he finally comprehends that Arthur was right all along. The Dutch we see in that moment is the Dutch who wrestles with his conscience about the events at the start of the game. [the ones we're not first party privy to] Not the Dutch we see probably in chapter 4 and onwards.
Dutch shot Micah because he wanted to blame micah for the gang falling apart and he didn't want to admit that he (Dutch) was the real problem. So he shot Micah to get a measure of revenge before finally slipping away into insanity. Dutch probably figured Micah would sell him out to the Pinkertons at some point after getting the blackwater money. He realized he wasn't interested in the money so he silenced Micah to end that loose end.
Can’t believe how it ended. Arthur gave his all, he tried everything he could to keep the gang together, he also helped Micah escaped from prison. On the other hand, for Dutch, Arthur was always by his side, showing loyalty, then, he realizes that Dutch was changing after he drowns Cornwall’s body and throws it towards the alligator. Little by little, he tells the gang members to leave and start a new life, because he knew Dutch wasn’t the same, he was killing more and more people as he continues to say, stick with me, I have everything planned blinded by money and the dream to move to Tahiti. Also, Hosea’s death affected him and his decisions because there was no longer a second commander.
Angelo Brontes body but ok
If anything i think John bringing up Arthur was a moment of clarity for Dutch that reminded him Micah was essentially what caused the downfall of the gang since Blackwater.
Never ceases to amaze, one of the best creators on the platform keep the red dead stuff coming man
Thanks for your contents/ videos
I will always remember dutch as: i’ve got a plan arthur
Whether Dutch intended to avenge Arthur or just wanted revenge on Micah is kind of up for debate but he ultimately dooms John in the end as Micah’s death kicks off the events of RDR1. I personally believe Dutch had a moment of clarity on the mountain and couldn’t bring himself to kill Arthur.
In the epilogue I actually think he thinks he's finally "saving" John and Abigail and Jack. He doesn't know at that point that the "law" would use them [Abigail and Jack] as pawns to get John to go after his "old" gang. Or does he know really how HE would change after the events in RDR2. He goes off the deep end. He becomes a man driven of a need for anarchy, likely hoping deep down that someone would just get a lucky shot off on him. As the finish of the first game approaches, he's literally begging John to just shoot him already. But John, despite everything, despite WHY he's forced into hunting his old gang, can't do it.
So Dutch tells John he's "got a plan" and then backs away until gravity will do what no one else seemingly can do. [kill Dutch] He's likely thinking in that moment "my death here can mean something, they should leave John alone, if I'm gone" He is of course wrong, but he can't know that in the moment.
I love how John and Arthur realized what they were next to when they were about to light their cigarettes.
You can hear the pain in dutches voice when he says " I aint got to much to say no more "
I feel like the ending where he says that Dutch damned them all gets through to Dutch more, especially because Hosea also says that Dutch will damn them all and everything after the Saint Denise robbery basically shows that Hosea was right.
The future GOAT of youtube just dropped. I got my oreos and milk ready!!
I always imagined it due to him knowing he did wrong. Realizing he was being used by another person, maybe with some guilt or what he did to his gang. Revenge was always Dutch’s thing. It makes sense why he’d dwell on it.
Arthur and John looking over at each other as they’re about to light cigs next to the dynamite is the best thing ever 😂
Dutch's decision to favor Micah over Arthur, Hosea, and John in the game is complex and reflects Dutch's deteriorating mental state and changing priorities as the story progresses.
1. **Manipulation by Micah**: Micah Bell is skilled at manipulating Dutch. He plays into Dutch's increasingly paranoid and aggressive tendencies, making Dutch believe that Micah is more aligned with his vision of a violent, anarchic future. Micah capitalizes on Dutch's growing distrust of Arthur and Hosea, portraying them as obstacles to Dutch's leadership.
2. **Conflict within the Gang**: As tensions rise within the Van der Linde gang, Dutch becomes more erratic and less rational. Micah exacerbates this by feeding Dutch's desire for control and power. Arthur and Hosea, on the other hand, represent a more grounded and moral influence, challenging Dutch's descent into chaos.
3. **Dutch's Decline**: Dutch's mental state deteriorates throughout the story due to various factors, including guilt, pressure, and a sense of impending doom. Micah aligns himself with Dutch's darker impulses, while Arthur and Hosea represent reminders of Dutch's past ideals, which he is increasingly abandoning.
4. **Micah's Loyalty (or Deception)**: Dutch perceives Micah as loyal and a true believer in his cause, particularly in contrast to Arthur and Hosea, who start questioning Dutch's decisions. Micah's deception is not apparent to Dutch until later in the story, by which time Dutch's judgment is clouded.
Ultimately, Dutch's choice of Micah over Arthur, Hosea, and John reflects his descent into madness and his susceptibility to manipulation. Micah's ability to exploit Dutch's weaknesses and desires plays a significant role in this tragic turn of events.
Dutch's decision to shoot Micah in "Red Dead Redemption 2" is a pivotal moment that reflects his eventual realization of Micah's true nature and his own moral reckoning. Several factors contribute to Dutch's choice to turn against Micah:
1. **Betrayal Revealed**: Dutch eventually comes to understand that Micah has been manipulating him and the gang for his own gain. Micah's true allegiance to his own self-interest becomes clear, particularly after Arthur Morgan exposes Micah's treachery and provides evidence of Micah's involvement with the Pinkertons.
2. **Loss of Faith**: Throughout the game, Dutch's faith in Micah is gradually eroded as he witnesses Micah's disregard for the well-being of the gang and his increasing ruthlessness. Dutch, who prides himself on loyalty and camaraderie, realizes that Micah has betrayed these principles.
3. **Arthur's Influence**: Arthur's influence on Dutch cannot be overlooked. Arthur, who once served as Dutch's right-hand man, opens Dutch's eyes to the truth about Micah's deception. Arthur's loyalty and sense of justice ultimately sway Dutch against Micah.
4. **Self-Preservation**: In the end, Dutch's decision to shoot Micah may also be driven by self-preservation. By eliminating Micah, Dutch removes a significant threat to himself and possibly seeks redemption for his own failures in leadership.
5. **Symbolic Act**: Shooting Micah can also be seen as a symbolic act of reclaiming Dutch's moral compass and acknowledging the damage caused by his own choices. It marks a turning point for Dutch, albeit a belated one, where he finally confronts the consequences of his actions.
In summary, Dutch's decision to shoot Micah represents a culmination of his character arc, where he confronts the reality of Micah's betrayal and his own role in the downfall of the gang. It is a moment of reckoning and redemption, albeit too late to undo the damage that has been done.
Well there's that symbolic act of declaiming his moral compass but is then immediately undone in RDR1 by him wanting to kill John for sport
@@Meatball996 yes that is true. Dutch RDR1 is a whole other monster compared to Dutch’s descent in 2. However, we aren’t fully aware of Dutch’s actions prior to the game except Heidi McCourt. I think Dutch used her the same way he used the other girl in rdr1, only shooting her to cause a distraction so he can run off.
@@Meatball996 We can’t fully say or confirm Dutch’s mental state if he was always insane and just hiding it, or he slowly descended into madness. It’s a concept that brings a lot of other open theories out into the fanbase which is another reason I love it so much.
Bro smashed that ChatGPT
I’ve always interpreted Dutch saying “Same as you I suppose” to John as acknowledging they were both seeking closure.
Dutch wasn’t there to kill Micah and maybe he was undecided in what he actually wanted to do.
Having failed the gang he was no longer a man of planning, he indicate how much he’s change but saying how little he has to say on things anymore.
I don’t think even he knew why he was there until John showed up. John’s redemption was his revenge on Micah for the gang and for Arthur. Dutch’s redemption was trying to rectify the mistake he made in the past, except he didn’t know that until the moment presented itself
Good stuff man! ❤
Glad I found your channel
I think it is just as likely that Dutch shot him to avenge Hosea, or Sean, or Lenny, or even Kieran, as it is that he did it to avenge Arthur. I seriously doubt Dutch had Arthur foremost in his mind at the time. He might have possibly done it for the sake of John, who was standing there present when he shot, but I kinda doubt that too (considering RDR1). John & Arthur abandoned him, and Dutch is not the forgiving type. His game is TiT TiT TiT TiT TiT for tat. My guess is that Dutch's reasoning for shooting Micah involved nobody else besides Dutch. Most probable reason, in my opinion, is that Dutch was nursing a 10-year-old grudge because Micah fooled and manipulated him, causing his gang to disintegrate. Frankly, I can't invent another reason that would enrage Dutch against Micah more than that realization would. It was revenge...again. But it was revenge for Dutch not for Arthur or anyone else, same as always.
I think it is more probable that Dutch was thinking about Cornwall, Milton, Bronte, and Colm when he shot than Arthur, Hosea, & John. Dutch was always more focused on and concerned with his enemies than his friends...or himself. He struggles most when there is no clear target to pursue. In fact, that is the fundamental underlying reason why all his friends left him in the end. With no target, he starts aiming at his own friends (most obvious in Guarma & Lakay). Truth says: Dutch abandoned the gang long before the gang abandoned Dutch. Dutch was speechless because despite everything he had tried to shake Arthur loose, the guy remained Dutch's loyal friend to the end...and Dutch, knowing exactly how to deal with foes, simply doesn't understand friendship, eventually living & dying alone without a single one while crusading against his adversaries. Arthur's friendship confounds Dutch throughout the story, John's maybe more so. You see it from the very start. Arthur's last words weren't the first ones to make Dutch stammer and side-step. He was confused. What should I say while watching my friend die when the concept of friendship is beyond my comprehension? To him the gang consisted of followers, supporters, co-workers, brothers, loyalists, parts of a machine called 'the crew', not friends. I don't think he wanted to be friends with any of them. He can't distinguish any difference anyway. After all, he is Dutch, and they are, every one of them, not Dutch.
Could have gone to Tahiti...stayed to fight enemies instead. Can't beat nature. Dutch shot Micah because he saw Micah was his enemy. I'm surprised, his enemies don't usually last that long. It's why Dutch is so well adapted to making new ones. He needs an enemy because enemies are what you fight against. Always looking for a new monster. Same notion he complains about with his last breath. The difference is they do it to justify their wages, he does it to justify his behavior.
Too simplistic a viewpoint IMO. If as you say to Dutch, everyone else is just a pawn, why are there tears on his face when he's looking at a dying Arthur in the stories finale? Why, when Micah;s urging him to come with, like some psychotic master urging his dog to do his bidding, does Dutch instead throw him a look of what can only be described as disgust, mixed with his own self loathing, before he gives one final despairing look at Arthur before taking off? And why, after not even bothering to look as he shoots Micah in the epilogue, does he leave Micah at Johns mercy, and set's the gangs wealth out of his mind, again, leaving it to John and his family?
Those are not the actions of a man who cares only about himself. Maybe he thinks in that moment after he shoots Micah that he [Dutch] couldn't take John. But I don't buy that. John is there to kill Micah. He doesn't expect Dutch to be there. John's focus is ON Micah when Dutch shoots Micah. That's how the script in that scene play's out. The PLAYER get's shot by Dutch if the focus is on Dutch for too long in that scene, so it's obvious why things pan out as they do. Because Dutch is supposed to put the first bullet in Micah. I also think you massively underestimate what Dutch thought about Arthur. In several moments in the game he alludes that Dutch is like a father figure, to him [Arthur] and it's also clear in numerous moments that Dutch considers Arthur as sort of like a Son. [Dutch has a good 10 years on Arthur so for Dutch, Arthur would be like a son, like a protege]
In the games finale you can see the anguish on Dutch's face when Arthur's facing his end. He knew it was coming anyway because of Arthur's illness, but not like that. And for Dutch it's like he's looking at the loss of his most dependable guy, and someone he's been thick as thieves with [quite literally] for nigh on 2 decades. No one could just SHRUG that sort of thing off.
I like the part where you didn’t really answer the question
Great video bro!
I actually enjoy that you focused primarily on Dutch in your explanation. Makes it easier to grasp at Dutch as a person instead of focusing on Dutch's interactions with everybody.
Could you do "why Micah kills/ignores Arthur depending on your honor level"
Low honour Micah kills Arthur to make sure that Arthur could never have a happy ending and sort of because as he said low honour Arthur was Just as bad as Micah and for high honour I guess it was because he saw Arthur accepted his fate and knew he would have died so he just runs because he knew he had no reason to stay this is just what I think I may be wrong
@@nobody-yk2hu Pretty weird how in the low honor return for the money ending he finishes off Arthur after being merely scratched yet in the high honor one Micah leaves him alone despite losing an eye
@@debilman9065 I think it might be because high honour Arthur would be thinking about all of the death and destruction Micah had caused remember if it weren't for that job on the ferry none of this would have happened Arthur would be healthy, the calender boys would be alive, Lenny could have ended up with Jenny but low honour Arthur while he still cared he didn't care as much so he wasn't as aggressive as high honour because both of them wanted the same thing to get the money for John's family and to keep the Pinkertons and the gang distracted
One thing that I noticed at least in the first 10 minutes of the video at this point I haven’t seen the rest but was the fact that dutches possible traumatic brain injury and send the was a very big cause of effect for why he turned in to the man that he was at the end of the game
Honestly i always thought it was stress. from losing people both in death and in loyalty. from being everybody's support. and from losing it all. stress is horrible when you have too much of it and can cause many problems
dropping bangers likes always 🔥🔥
Only watch the start of the video thus far he also had a serious head injury during the trolley robbery
i always thought it was like his way of admitting his downfall, killing Micah and leaving the blackwater money he cared so much about behind. it's like he realized he took a lot of wrong decisions and thought that 1 bullet could redeem him but I doubt it really worked even for himself. He just had his loneliness and guilt left when he walked away
Because they wrote themself into a corner and needed to wrap it up some how.
I'm playing Red Dead 2 for the first time and your title and thumbnail just spoiled the game for me. Thanks pal.
Great video dude solid work I’m watching your Micah video will you do a video on max payne? R.I.P James mccaffery🙏
R.I.P the legend….I actually had a max payne 3 video planned but with the direction it was heading in i felt it was more appropriate to just start with the og Max Payne. But i dont know anymore exactly. I love the series so there will be something related to one if not all the games. Time would only tell. But in short, the answer to your question is YES
@@CynicGTA heck yea and it’d be even more appropriate this year because of the max Payne remake rumors. But will it be the same without the man himself?
@stealthgamer8745 rumors? What rumors? The remakes were officially announced as to be in the works courtesy of Remedy themselves. They announced it, i believe 2yrs ago now. As far as it being the same without Mccaffery? Doubt it. He IS Max
@@CynicGTA oh yes that is true. And oh I had no idea I only heard about it after Alan wake 2 😂
This game is just so deep even 6 years later we would still discuss about it
i think when dutch is saying that he tried to do his best and you only cared about yourself, i think its a double liner because hes partly saying that to himself as well
I just noticed that the game both begins and ends with Sadie being saved from Micah by Dutch in a backhanded way
For me the line when he started to bitch about loyalty non stop. Loyalty is a currency you get by default but when you have to demand it you are a ghost of yourself.
The reason I think Dutch killed Micha Was because he killed Duchess son arthur And he finally realized it and it sunk in
4:10 every part is golden even where they almost blow themselves up but notices right before 🤣
Does anyone of you know what happend to the money box at the end of the game? The camp was out of food, medicine and ammo, but there was nothing I could do about it. The bow just disappeared and everyone was just complaining that there was nothing to eat
3:50 I was literally just playing while watching this and I triggered this dialogue right as it came up in this video. That was crazy haha
Half hour for one question is crazy
I just found the channel that makes the best rdr content
18:33 I think Dutch had alztimerz cos he said when he left he doesn’t have anymore words. He can’t think straight since he got bumped on the head in one of the missions
The fact so many people are still talking about a game that’s 6 years old says how great it is.
I believe after the tramway accident and dutch hit his head he gone crazy after and got more irrational as time goes by
Good video my man and my take on this is I do believe your theory in this video and on that he kind of did it for Arthur and Jonas anything I think he might’ve shot John and both John and Sadie you know that his mental state had declined so much at that point that he was gonna but he really didn’t care. He was going to side with Mika and shoot someone, that who he saved her life many years ago from the Driscoll’s now he’s just gonna betray her like that I think that’s what would’ve happened. Had if John didn’t bring up his name, Arthur’s name as well
In the whole game dutch just need muneh but in the end he leaves all those moneh in the cabin
20:00 Interesting to note here is that while Micah is ranting crap about how long Arthur's been dead is that Dutch suddenly looking at him if you look at the edge of the screen.
It's pretty clear that it's been bothering him and I wouldn't be surprised if he actually took offense from Micah's remark about a man who has been loyal to him. It might also been the turning point of that stand off, since John reminded him of what Arthur wished (which might also explain why he left that amount of money to John, since Arthur wanted John to have a new lease on life)
Edit: whoops, typed "reminded" twice
i think that the death of molly plays a big part in his descent into madness.
Nah its hosea because Hosea was the Brains of the gang and the smartest one everytime that dutch wanted to rob or kill at the worst time hosea would be always be beside him and telling him that the plans would not be good idea for Example (robbing the cornwall train or going after bronte so when hosea died along with dutchs brain injury he got from the trolley robbery in chapter 4 really changed dutch and during chapters 5 and 6 was really the turning point and the gangs downfall
i personally believe that he made up his mind at the last possible second as if you shoot micah in the standoff before dutch does he shoots john anyway, i think originally he was there for the money but after the talk with john he shoots micah himself and leaves john the money
Dutch probably became a villain at some point, in the first chapters he really showed that he cared but it seems that after Hosea death or something else, but i think that Arthur's death was a point were he broke, and started questioning what he did until that point, until he meet John and had to choose between His other son and Micah the guy that killed the last spark of humanity in him, one of the first members and the one that tried to save him from himself.
This would be a great Show or movie on how a young Vanderlin gang got together starting off with Arthur as a young hoodlum before meeting Hosea and Dutch
I feel as if dutch was there to off the rat on his own accord, the rat went back for the blackwater score, went to dutch with some bs schemes, pissed him off and reminded him of everything they burnt down .
i think Hosea was Dutch's Canary in the Coal Mine after he died everything went to shit
The actor said he cried when Arthur spoke to him, but in game we don't see it. So in the end he had revenge on Micah.
I think a big factor of humans is that we forget under certain situations aside from brain damage (dementia, injury or poisoning for example or even secere mental illness cycles like mania) do often act out in more "primitive" responses. Its why people panic in tragedy, why some people explode, wimpy or make irrational decisions.
Him teaming up with micah after arthur died is so sad. him killing micah doesn't change that he knew he was the rat but still teamed up with him
Dutch clearly changed as a result of the actions in the game. You can tell from the way he went from making it a priority to rescue Sean and Micah, to leaving his “favorite” son to hang.
I feel that it was Dutch‘s usual motivation. He felt duped, and unlike with Bronte, he played the long game. It’s clear through how coldly he shot Micah.
He couldn't avenge Arthur because he was the reason Arthur died. John avenged Arthur.
It's crazy how after so many years after the game's release, we're all still talking about it ...
He’s so much more complex than most people seem to think he is
God damn it I hadn't finished the fucking epilogue before scrolling past this damn title
18:03
I disagree, I think it was obvious John was there to "delete" Micah and his choice of words were pretty deliberate. The cash being there was no coincidence as you pointed out, but I instead believe Dutch used it to lure Micah out of hiding so he could get rid of him. Judging by Micah's line "all manner of folk paying social calls" it seems Dutch probably just showed up like John did.
I like how the title of this video is just straight up a spoiler
I think dutch's head injury during the trolly did play a role in his madness. He started his decent into madness after that, plus the stress of having everyone under him and responsible for them. . .it took its toll, I honestly think he did care about his gang of outlaws and wanted the very best for them and himself. Once Hosea died, and the trolly, was just too much for him to deal with at once.
I am sure that he did it for Arthur because he realized that because of Micah and his own stubbornness he lost his "son" who he taught everything he knew, like reading riding shooting etcetera, and maybe for Hosea and Susan too because they were the original gang members like himself and John
The sad thing is that Arthur always trusted dutch and knew he was going to get him even when people wear not