Mixed 12.8V 100Ah LiFePO4's in Series for 48V?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2024
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Think of it this way. Each battery has it's own BMS to keep the cells balanced. So, when you put 4 batteries in Series you need to keep them balanced also. It will be fine if you use a balancer. Remember your neighbor with the Battle Born Batteries, this was his problem. He needed a balancer. I have been running 4 100a lifepo4 in series for 3 years with no problem at all, but I use a balancer on them and they stay perfectly balanced.
What balancer would you recommend?
@@dangeroustoman Google the EQ-48/4 balancer. It just works.
@@dangeroustoman EQ-48/4 works great
this is a good comment,all true.
I fully agree. I have four identical lifepo4 batteries and I still use a balancer. I got mine from Watts 24/7
For short term test it should be OK, just make sure the spec of each 12V battery is allowed to be connected in series up to 48V.
I will double check that my friend, Mahalo!🤙
I say lead the way! My guess is it will work perfectly fine.
Love the encouragement! 🤙
Go for it 👍 as I have read all the comments below there’s no need to reiterate. The batteries should find their own balance if they’re left to rest. The problem would be, will maybe not a problem, upon charge and discharge. Some of the batteries in the different bat packs, might discharge/charge at a different rate. But under a small load or even resting, they should find their neutral place again. I’ve done it for years with no problem.
Mahalo! 🏄🏼🤙
The BMS in each battery will protect its own cells. BUT you will not have control of the % capacity on each of those 4 batterys. When one of them are getting high/low enough the BMS will cut and your 4-chain battery system will turn off before the other 3 have reached top/bottom.
The BMS has 2 functions (at least):
1.) Protect the cells from over/under voltage/ampere.....
2.) Balance the cells connected to the BMS system.
With your system you are missing #2, the balancing between the 4 100Ah batteries you got there.
You have to add a balancer that can equalise the voltage between those 4 batteries.
It will sure work for a small test, but in the long run you can end up with one battery at 0% and one at 100% in your chain. A 48V battery with 0Ah usable capacity (In the worst case!!)
Great info! And Mahalo! I got a balancer on the way! Aloha!🤙
You can do this if you also buy a (relatively cheap... usually around $30) whole-battery balancer to keep the individual 12V batteries at roughly similar voltages. However, it isn't an ideal setup due to BMS low-voltage disconnects. If one of the batteries disconnects the other three won't be able to do anything and you also might have a hard time bootstrapping the battery bank to get it working again.
Also read the manufacturer specs on series connections. Usually, though 12V batteries can be tied in series up to 4 to make 48V.
Using different brands in series is ... also not ideal. It will work, generally, but things can get a bit wonky in ways that they wouldn't if the mismatched batteries were tied in parallel.
In anycase, the basic answer is "yes as long as your life doesn't depend on it and you buy a whole-battery balancer to keep the four batteries at roughly similar voltages".
-Matt
Mahalo as always Matt! I listen to everything you say. Just finished up a video on the balancer.Working so well. Hope to put it up later this evening. I understand what you say about not ideal, but I think it will work for the reason I am doing it. Aloha!🤙
Only ever tried it in parallel, but I'd think, don't rock the boat and jeopardize your fridge system that's been working so well. Get some more cables and fuses and start the experiment out fresh, then see what you get and tweak it to best performance. A penny's worth of thoughts... Aloha.🍍
Mahalo Dave! Gather up all the pennies right now, and feeling frisky! 🤣 Aloha!🤙
The only problem I see is the BMS when getting full charge disconnecting before outher battery is full . for long term this will go out of balance. but for short term testing I think it will work fine. start will 100% battery to start with . Power queen changed that 48V battery to 100 Ah now. I would leave that system working. you could use 2 same 24V battery. I think you have only 1 . each battery has a BMS so short term testing is not going to hurt anything. them new 100 watt panels are really super in low light . over time that really adds up. love to see the full sun on them . put a 100 watt panel side buy side test under low light. with 2 different panels . not connected together . would like to see what 100 watt panel does better. 1 battery 1 MPPT switch panels .
Great suggestion on the panels,I will give that a whirl brother! Aloha!🤙
You're into the Victron line... they have balancers. I bot a few for this very purpose, will be hooking them up soon. 4x100Ah 12V = 48, but you need balancers between the batteries (so four batteries = 3 balancers, at least if you're going with the Victron setup)
Hey man, it will work just fine for short term use. Just make sure you fully charge them each before series connecting them. You will be limited to the lowest specced battery.
If you plan on using it long term then you will want to install some balancers between each battery. if just using for 6-12 months then you should be fine without it.
Mahalo for that buddy. Got a balancer otw this very minute! Aloha!🤙
As long as they all have their own bms and support series hook up it's fine
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One thing is to series identical batteries, because we can assume from the start the BMS specifications are exactly the same.
Also, you would need to be absolutely sure they need to be at the same state of charge. Otherwise even if you see 48v, it might be that one battery is at 100% state of charge and another is empty and you would not know.
If one BMS shuts down you loose one full battery and you might run into problems.
If you really must do (which I don't recommend), please make sure they are fully charged and with the same state of charge and absolute capacity is exactly the same (that is surely almost impossible).
If you just want to do a test in the top 50/60% (not deplete them), you might get away with series different batteries with virtually the same capacity, but what happens if you of them batteries cut's out, it might not be good. Imagine what would happen if your 48V battery becomes 36 or even 24v suddenly because one or two bms's shut the battery down while your system "sees" a 48v battery which is suddenly "empty"...
It will work for a demo purpose for a short period if you stay away from full charge and empty. That is why, a 48v system, should exclusively be used with a native 48v battery. And that is why you love your 48v system. No brainer, no sudden cuttofs only one BMS.
When you cinect several bms's that don't communicate with each other you are asking for problems and troubleshooting is a headache specially if they don't have Bluetooth and you have no clue what's going on...
Hope this helps.
Cheers and keep up the great work.
Several bms's behave differently even being the same brand
I have done this before, as long as the batteries are all top balanced, it will work until the difference in internal resistance kick in. They sell a 48v balancer that balances 4 12 volt batteries. It will work, but iy will have a limit when you go long term or low voltage
The problem you will yave is when 1 cell in the highest voltage battery reaches its max voltage, it will disconnect the circuit and all the other batteries as a result. Same thing when the lowest voltage cell of all the batteries reaches its cut off voltage. That's the limit of this way of 4s 48v system. It will be hard to make it work long term. I think I went about a year before I realized 3 batteries were at max and 1 battery reached its low voltage cutoff. If I do it again I will definitely get a 4 battery 48v balancer for around 60usd. I didn't monitor the voltagees after about a week after setup. It was only a backup system in case of hurricanes.
Got a balancer coming now! Mahalo for all the great comments! Much appreciated brother! Aloha!🤙
Great stuff, mahalo for sharing your experiences! 🤙
I would do it with a battery equalizer.
When one battery gets full, the on battery BMS will stop the charging current and the others won’t get fully charged. An equalizer will fix that problem.
I have a balancer in my shopping cart!🤙
Should be fine, and to make it easy just limit the max charge to 80%. That way you wont need a 48v 4s bms. When they are in series you can treat each battery itself as a single cell
🤙
There's no issue as long as you add a 48 Volt balancer.
Copy that, and did! Aloha!🤙
Hard no. But if you do try it, make sure they are in a structure you don’t care about, better yet outside under a tarp or something. Make sure to get the voltages the same before you hook them up I’d be interested to see what happens!
I appreciate the feedback!🤙
the ONLY thing and most important thing is to ensure each battery BMS is approved to handle 48v. the BMS needs to be able to handle interrupting 48v and not just 12v. If any of those individual batteries uses cheaper MOSFETS that can't handle 48v you will blow the bms. parallel is just fine, pouch or prismatic doesnt matter. as long as chemistry is the same and all start out at the SAME STATE OF CHARGE you will be fine.
Exactly about BMS. Beat me to it lol
Mahalo for that great info! Aloha!🤙
😉🤙
Low C rates. All series rated BMS. Add a 4x12 balancer. Don’t go above 3.5V cell or below 3V cell. Probably work just fine.
Mahalo!🤙
It will be fine keep it under 13.8 Volt
Mahalo!🤙
You will be fine they won’t charge well over 13.6v without a balancer. If one BMS turns off it will go to 15 odd volts on that battery and the other may only be 13.6-13.8 for example. Even if you can get 2 balancers to balance 2x 24v banks and series connect them it will be ok. The thing with lithium batteries is that when they fail, they can reverse polarity, and I've witnessed this firsthand. One battery was at -11.8 volts, while the other was at 14 volts, totaling just over 3 volts difference for a 24v series battery. If you get a victron balancer you can set an alarm relay if you want to know what is going on when 2 batteries get too far away in voltage.
Great info brother, Mahalo!🤙
great video
Aloha!🤙
Fun experiment !!! Aloha
Having a great time with it, and learning so much! Aloha!🤙
It will work just fine. Good for testing and experiments but i would not do it for long term as it may (or may not) shorten the life of one of the batteries.
🤙
i would replace that quick circut breaker with an actual DC breaker. i had a *100 amp* one internally disconnect at 60 amp draws.
I would leave the refrigerator system as is it's not broke don't fix it you see assorted batteries with a battery balancer for the new project
That's what I'm thinking brother! Mahalo!🤙
Just make sure each one of them allows series connections and the throw in a balance you should be good to go
Perfect!🤙
as long as your test don't include charging or discharging to a BMS disconnect you will be fine.
however if you do the above to a BMS disconnect state you are very likely to damage 1 or all BMS,s as if 1 BMS disconnects before others that BMS will see 36v across its terminals and in reverse polarity. this is nothing to do with the cells but BMS.
if you can conduct your tests away either extreme say above 25% and below 85% charge discharge you will be fine.
one more point your max charge and discharge current is governed by your weakest battery/ BMS good look
Great info! Mahalo brother!🤙
I say try it and monitor it closely, just my 2 cents
🤙
Yes, you can mix different brands of batteries with similar voltage, but it's generally not recommended. Different brands of batteries may have slightly different characteristics and performance, which can lead to uneven discharge rates and potentially affect the overall performance of the battery pack. It's best to use batteries of the same brand, type, and capacity when creating a battery pack for optimal performance and safety. If you do mix different brands, it's important to monitor the batteries closely for any signs of overheating or other issues. *This is a comment on QUORA
" it's important to monitor the batteries closely for any signs of overheating or other issues"
@@andyirons7162 totally agree andy
Mahalo for the feedback my friend! Good stuff. Aloha!🤙
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only one thing i can see is the mini's are pouch cells? might be enough difference to upset the apple cart
That mini actually doesn't have pouch cells. Some others I have do, but I don't plan to put them in the mix. Aloha!🤙
If they each say they can be series connected to 48v, I'd do it. Especially the light usage you do, with seldom deep discharge, I think it will be fine.
If a battery is not allowed to be in series, its BMS probably is not able to handle the high voltage from the rest of the pack. Each BMS is always ignorant of the others and will act independently.
As always my friend, Mahalo for the great info! Aloha!🤙
I wouldn’t trust the BMS being your only thing to stop over charging. At least in parallel your charge control device stops at a set voltage.
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I trust the victron mppt solar charge controller more than the bms on my batteries. I took the bms off mines. They been charging well so far for a year.
Hi Bob. Gary from se MI. For a simple TEST with low current draw, I would go for it. However, one thing to remember is that any MINI is a pouch cell almost always. Seen way too many videos tearing them open and the manufactures will NEVER tell you up front. On BMS on multiple batteries, each battery is independent! Period, full stop! If there is NO RS485 or CAN communication to an inverter, there is NO communication to each battery! Some batteries have a blue tooth BMS but again each battery is independent! Would I set up four dissimilar batteries in series inside my home? No way! Remember too that when in series you are charging and discharging against the internal resistance too, so in-balances will grow over time with NO way to verify the balance other than an external device or time to allow the batteries to settle out. But even that logic won't guarantee the internal cells are balanced over the long term. These issues are why the industry is changing and fast! These little 100AH batteries are for hobbyist/ RV / small off grid way of thinking. But again for a quick test, go for it and we'll watch the results. The best thing about 48v is the smaller costs of copper wire, lower amperage, and higher mileage from an MPPT controller. This too is driving the market into 12v (RV, small systems) or 48v camps (home / large). Aloha and looking forward to seeing the results.
Mahalo for all that Gary! That mini actually has prismatic cells. I did not want to put pouch in the mix .Great stuff for me to ponder. Aloha!🤙
I say go for it and be the pioneer.
😉🤙
Roll the Dice
Place your bets!
Fever in the funk house run kitty run!😉🤙
🤣🤙
I'd ne careful so as something dosent run away on you....keep a close eye on it if you try👍
Be watching it like a hawk fo sure! Aloha!🤙
it may get out of Ballance over time it will work watch the voltage per battery
Many are suggesting using a balancer. Mahalo!🤙
My money is on it working
Mine too!😉🤙
What’s up with a clear blue sky that only produces 75% watts?
Sometimes if it's real hot yeah🤙
@@ProjectsinParadise808 oh yah I forgot about heat.
I don't think you should because you probably have different BMS types in them... If you decide to do it, tear them down and remove the BMS from each and maybe us one? Because those BMS's will only allow certain amps out right...
Mahalo for the feedback brother!🤙
Absolutely 💪🏿@@ProjectsinParadise808
I noticed you mentioned that after I'd already replied lol😂 Guess sometimes it's best to wait until the end, then reply...
Strong yes because you're probably not going to pull a lot of amps.
Keep amps lower.
If the discharge amp are different it will be the lowest of the 4 battery
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Do it 😀 if it's only a test so will it not matter
😉🤙
Voltronic mppt PCM60X live video voltage amper
Do it!
Imma give it a go!🤙
What balancer ?
Got one now!🤙
You need to make the 48v leap 😅
I'm stretching for the jump now!🤣🤙
Are all the cells the same? If one are eve cells and one pouch cells I say no.
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✌️
🌴🤙
Aloha
Aloha brother!🤙
all batteryes have same specs i dont see wy not
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😆⚡️🤙
No.....not worth the risk. Nearly everything I've read in this space has warned about mixing batteries.
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