I understand that, at some point, Harlow created "monster mothers." That is, cloth mothers that would occasionally poke the infants, or suddenly shake and throw the infants off. ...The interesting result is that the infants *clung even more desperately to the "monster mother".* Harlow had managed to model the way abused children and partners paradoxically bond more intensely to their abusive parents or spouses.
As I recall, the monster mothers couldn't do any of that. However, being made of wire under the cloths, they lacked warmth, response and weren't comfortable in the slightest. It's possible the researchers would shake the monster mothers from above though.
@@nachgeben there were two types of "mothers", i think this channel covers the ones you're speaking of in another video of this same series. i don't think they covered the "monster mothers" though, but i think the channel Shrouded Hand, has covered both this, and other parts of this person's experiments, including the pit of despair, the monster mothers, raperack, and so on.
Harry seems to perfectly fit the stereotype of a psychologist who gets involved in psychology in an attempt to find out what's wrong with himself, rather than the desire to help or even just understand other people. His wife was at home literally dying (and did in fact die) while he was doing these experiments.
@@prixe12 Monkeys are necessary for the advancement of science and betterment of Humanity. In many other scientific experiment's monkeys and other animals went through much worse than this Although one could argue they were unethical, this guy's experiments provided various beneficial scientific data, like the importance of mother/parent attachment for the cognitive development of an infant
@@MybeautifulandamazingPrincess The findings of this study are laughably basic, as is your grasp of the English language. I made no accusations, and the truth isn't defamatory. But if you have any more poorly thought out opinions you'd like to add, feel free to bravely comment again.
@@othertalk3313 You claimed that he didn't have a desire to help his wife... Well you didn't live with him to know why he acted the way he did A lot of people cope with loss by dedicating everything into their work. The loss of his wife probably made him even more obsessed with his work Well you may think his findings are basic and unimportant, but that's precisely thanks to the discoveries he and others like him made, that they became common practice in psychology, Specially in child development. Like the importance of parent attachment and emotional support for a toddler's mental development Surely you can argue the experiments were cruel and unethical, but they weren't useless or unimportant
I'm surprised you didn't mention the fact that Harlow tried to study the maternal instincts in a few of the pit of despair monkeys. When they refused to engage with the males, he restrained them in a device he called the "rape rack". And the mothers either ignored the resulting children or killed them outright.
Have you seen what happens when you even allude to rape in any video now? You can't even say "sexually assaulted" most true crime you tubers have to simply say "assaulted" and can't say anything more than that. Even calling it an "assisted breeding rack" or "reproduction rack" would likely get the video demonetized.
"He did this in the only way he knew how; by terrorizing rhesus monkeys." I think might be the only time in history anyone has ever said that. "Love at Goon Park" is a good read, people should check it out.
@Lex60 - Exactly and we all know how serial killers have sick tendencies towards terrorizing animals. Harlow clearly had some kind of personal/mental issues of his own going on inside his mind. Make no mistake, this isn't science... Harlow's work is the work of a madman and none of his work should be idolized in any way.
I was home-schooled until high school in the backwoods of the american midwest. I can definitely tell you that total isolation from your peers while being raised by a dysfunctional mother is, indeed, quite socially stunting. I'm 30 now and I am still learning how to interact with people my own age. I do much better with people older than me bc everyone at my parents church that I was allowed to interact with was older than me. [my mom seldom let me hang out with the church kids outside of sunday school]
Somewhat similar experience in the city. I was an only child allowed to go to school, BUT my borderline personality disorder (BPD) mother was a teacher at that school, and she was watching me like a hawk 24/7. I had "recess friends" at school, but wasn't allowed to visit with them outside school hours. In 7th grade, I was allowed to join the scouts, BUT my mother was co-leader and went with us on camping trips. High school was the same -- no extra curricular activities, unless Mom was allowed to "supervise" in some capacity. Thanks to the good influence of one of my mother's friends (she had very few) I was allowed to attend University out of town; and that's where, in a dorm, I felt intense liberation, and started to (cautiously) socialise, though I never risked dating boys in the whole 4 years. I deliberately related to the opposite sex as a "big sister", sociable,--preferably in groups-- but unromantic. It took until my late 30s to "normalise". Becoming a devout Catholic helped. At age 42 , at a Church event, I met the love of my life, a quiet, kind widower much older than me; We married and had a wonderful 30 years until he died a few years ago. I live contentedly with my cat and think all considered, I am a normal person who appreciates the quiet joys of life more the older I get. I know shall die trusting in a God I know loves me; content, unafraid, with few regrets. I have forgiven my mother -- Before she died, I learned that she was molested by "a family friend" when she was 12 or so. Because of WW II and poverty, therapy was never an option for her. This explains her intense protectiveness of me.
this was my experience too... except I was homeschool really shittily and for my whole life... I'm 19, and it's so fucking scary looking down the seemingly endless precipice between me, and getting a job, meeting people, trying to be independent... when I'm so incompetent and don't know anything about the real world. I don't even feel human, and being around them makes me feel depressed, especially because it just reminds me of how clearly different i am. does it get better? I don't expect to just get over this, but I'd like to know if it at least becomes bearable, because right now i don't see myself making it to 30
same buddy. Still feel significant difficulty with peers. it's been helpful career wise because I easily befriend older people but outside of work im desperately lonely.
A video clip from these experiments is burned in my mind forever It’s of a young monkey put into a cage with others and instead of interacting it just wraps it’s hands over its head and paces around looking for a place to hide It’s really heartbreaking
Sadly there’s a whole “genre” of abused/neglected baby monkeys on TH-cam where they exhibit the same traumatic behaviour such as self clutching while someone films it. I’ve seen some pretty horrendous things in the effort to report those videos but it’s a losing battle, there’s new people starting baby monkey torture channels (under the false pretence of them being a pet) everyday. I guess Harlow isn’t alone in his interest of psychologically torturing baby monkeys. The popularity of this “genre” on TH-cam does make me question if Harlow himself had underlying sadistic motivations for doing SO many intentionally cruel baby monkey experiments, considering normal people can’t stomach even a short clip of what he put those monkeys through.
@@Sanakudou I want to see what you’re talking about but I’m genuinely scared to search it n have TH-cam think all I want to see from now on is tortured animals
I learned about pet monkeys last year. They often looked malnourished and in bad shape. Often presenting injuries with some really far fetched explanation. One time they kept ignoring a baby monkey leaving it screaming on the ground. As I understand it they are extremely clingy and refusing to hold them is psychological abuse
Not to mention they are always baby monkeys and never adult ones. It's like they go up in smoke when they get old and stop being cute and/or "fight back". There are these viral videos showing a monkey called Bibi playing with animals on this "farm" but I'm skeptical as fuck. She's a Japanese macaque baby and they get bigger. Will she disappear as well when she grows up? What's she doing when the camera isn't rolling?
@@bluejar5614 But was it? If you want to see what isolation does to people, there are plenty of existing cases of it without engineering more. And while I get that studying people who have found themselves in that situation removes the laboratory controls, it also removes the psychological/neurological difference between humans and monkeys. I'm not sure what valuable insight was gained from these experiments beyond the obvious "Social isolation is bad." Or to pose it as a more practical question, what did psychologists who work with patients gain from these experiments to help those patients?
As someone who has suffered with depression from adolescence, I put this at a 12. The needless, cruel suffering inflicted on those poor creatures makes me physically ill. Big hugs for anyone else hit hard by this one.
You would hate working in biochem and genetics and I would not blame you for it at all, arguably it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be, things have improved a lot but in some areas you just can't work without animal experimentation- there's often no alternative- and it's just something that's so commonplace you don't even think about it. I'm stuck in this weird duality where I hate the concept and it's realisation but acknowledge that it is indispensable part in the greater process of teasing apart the mysteries of the structure of the world around us, and the dizzying complexity of the objects and creatures in it and the systems that make it all tick. Torn between sober scientific pragmatism and empathy twisting a dagger in my gut, I often wish I was more stupid and ignorant. It was crushing to grapple with the concept of the products I viewed when leafing through a scientific instruments company's catalog one time and finding these card/paper/plastic cones with the tip cut off branded "Decapicones" in sizes for various rodents, I hate to think that the demand for harvesting brains without damaging them for microscope study on such a massive scale creates a profitable market for such a product.
I’ve got anxiety and my husband has depression, and this shit hit me hard too. I’m also an animal lover so an experiment so needless and so cruel to a literal metric fuck ton of animals made me want to desecrate this man’s grave. Like, I get that in some cases animal studies are the only viable method to test a device or a therapy or procedure or something, but this is so pointlessly cruel and with such obvious outcomes that all I can say is that Harlow was as much of a blatantly evil sadist as Count Rugen from The Princess Bride… Who also had a torture chamber called the Pit of Dispair…
I've gone through severe depression, anxiety and addiction. And it always amazes me that everyone shows outrage for these animals but humans in the same conditions are roundly ignored. Just goes to show the priorities of those in charge/in a position to help, just don't act.
The hardest part to listen to was how they “prepared” them… I don’t know what’s worse… to be taken from the wild and isolated, or to be born alone in the dark… I just feel like crying in a fetal position. 😭
Not entirely related to the topic of this video, but I used to have 4 budgies when I was younger (2 males, 2 females). One time, one of the females got a bit moody during mating season and bit one of the males. My little buddy was bleeding a few drops from his head, and I decided to buy a second cage so I could isolate him from the other three so his wounds could heal properly. Although the cage sat right next to the cage with the other three birds and they were able to see/hear each other, my little buddy became restless and was constantly trying to somehow break through his cage and reunite with the others, and his desperation really showed. 😢 One day later I allowed him to go back to his group, the relief was instantly, and luckily nothing bad happened again. From this example alone, I can only imagine how these monkeys must have felt. Truly heartbreaking. 😭
But they want people to be alone. Alone people don't form unions or rebellions. Now to just come up with a cheap pill that will "treat" them for their natural despair so they won't rebel. SSRI's for all! I hate it here.
Some of these evil experiments seem to have the most obvious "results" that there isn't even need to do experiments on, like who would've thought isolation causes mental anguish :O
The "result"sought by these experiments is not *IF* it causes depression. It is *HOW MUCH* time it takes, *HOW MUCH* damage it makes The evil is in *WHY* you need this data? What would it be "useful" *FOR* ? And do not doubt that if someone PAID for the experiments, they had an *application* for the data gathered. Off the top of my head, and without going too deep into the "evil" side, these ae a few applications: how long can a "monkey" inside a submarine armed with nuclear missiles, underwater, with limited contact, no sunlight remain effective? Or inside a missile bunker? I have worst ideas than that, but rather not share them. Peace!
The experiments have the most obvious results because of the very same experiments. You were born after such experiments, which is why they seem obvious to you. These scientists contributed to science and humanity, and you have free access now to a lot of advancements thanks to them, including medicines and vaccines, that are also tested on monkeys
There are many ethical issues with these studies, but my specific concern is the labelling of 'depression' when psychological trauma might seem more accurate. I'm not a psychologist, but I feel like Harlow was heavily anthropomorphising his subjects and projecting his own issues on to them.
Your videos are so amazing! My 76 year old father is still a practicing radiation oncologist with lots of radium-coated pottery on display he loves to test his geiger counter on for people. he's a huge fan of your channel and recently has been sharing back to me your videos that aren't even radiation based😂❤
15:49 Needless to say, "... but Harlow wasn't just creating loads of depressed monkeys for no reason," is among yr best narrative work to date! Thanks again.
One crucial bit of context is that the prevailing psychology of the time was that infants - primate and human - formed attachment based on food being provided, and saw maternal attachment as a source of weakness and harmful to development. Harlow was setting out in part to prove that wrong.
I am autistic, so probably not a common opinion, but I only really speak to family and ex wife socially, and obviously my children, I take them to the park and play games with them, but on my time alone, I don't care if I speak to someone at all. I just play games, and I genuinely wouldn't care if I didn't speak to/have a friend/partner again. I enjoy spending time with my children, but genuinely literally hide from people.
Obviously though, for monkeys, I'd say this is extreme cruelty because their main "play" activities, are social activities, and I of course don't have 0 contact with other humans, so don't really count, but I just find it difficult (hence ex wife...) to imagine a life where I'd want to be in a social situation. Poor monkeys :(
Also wow, ironic issues plaguing him, I don't believe in coincidences, nor karma.... But if you look at time in a retrospective/causality aspect, his life was hit by massive "karma"
@SWISS1337, I have some idea what you mean. I have Aspberger's but as I was born in the mid-60s it wasn't diagnosed until I was in my early 50s. Their initial hunch was that I was a sociopath as I only cherish interacting with those who give me something. Even with them I need alone time which I often lose track of. I lucked out. My parents and my much-older siblings recognized that I was a strange kid and taught me how to appropriately socialize. We now joke that I can pass for human. I work only enough to keep the things that I need coming, even if it's a long term investment that only comes to fruition later. I'm a good spouse, parent, community member, and employee but mostly because it makes my life easier. My spouse of 35 years recognized it early on and it suits her fine. Our relationship is an exchange, openly and candidly, no presumptions or games. I am very lucky in that.
I was raised in the middle of nowhere Texas, and my parents both worked nights. This meant I wasn't allowed to be home during the day and would typically just wander through the woods until sunset. Well my parents, when they were around, beat me so often that I stopped crying during it and that made them uncomfortable, so they started grounding me instead. I loved being grounded because I wasn't allowed to be home during the day normally, and was able to sit in my air conditioned room and read books. When they realized it wasn't an effective form of punishment though... they started taking away my things. Eventually I would be grounded for days or weeks in an empty room with just a bed. My own personal pit of despair. There is no way to describe the amount of psychological damage this caused me. There is no way to isolate the effects. This is a terrible method of study.
Also the name of the Torture Chanber in The Princess Bride where thet had a machine that literally sucked the life out of people. I wonder if the author had any inspiration from this assholes er… creative… naming scheme?
-maybe to feel validated? or that your feelings are validated? maybe you just want others to suffer as bad as you're doing? maybe you feel so bad that you can't stand the thought of anyone being better off than yourself?
Wanting others to have to experience the same suffering that you have is part of human nature. That is why we have "hazing rituals" and "character building activities" or when people say "back in my day.. blah blah..". We as people think that if someone hasn't suffered the same level of trauma as you, they are not as well developed or are weaker than you. It is a messed up way to develop social hierarchy.
That's where the ethical questions come in. Better for monkeys to suffer than humans, especially when trying to figure out depression. Sure, there's alternatives where we could try things out on already depressed people but then what if that just makes things worse for them? Sure, minimize suffering. But then how do we know if those studies were thorough enough to produce results that can be used with humans in later stages of research? We know severity of suffering often produces distinctly different people: you might be isolated for a couple weeks and all it does is make you more grateful for things while being isolated for six months can severely alter how you interact with everyone in your life, to the point you can't even participate in some forms of treatment anymore.
@@PlainlyDifficult bro I love the topics you cover I just wish I could watch someone who isn't you cover them. You really don't seem to understand delivery and why it's important when making sure the information is received by the audience effectively. Just saying
Grant Board: "So your proposal here says you want to make monkeys sad." Harlow: "I want to study isolation's effects on depression." Grant Board: "And you plan on doing this by, and I quote, by putting them in a 'pit of despair'." Harlow: "That's right." Grant Board: "Seems perfectly reasonable, you're approved."
As someone with lifelong depression and trauma including social isolation and a mother figure that was often worse than the wire mother- I can understand the desperation to find a cure. But to experiment on anyone but myself? The thought never crossed my mind. I would never want to cause the kind of pain I experienced, even if it cured me forever. I continue to try every possible solution and, bit by bit, make progress but I’m also aware that the treatments in Harlowe’s time were limited by a lack of understanding whereas I have had access to many therapies and medications. So I can’t fully understand his experience (which I’m thankful for). I will assume his motivations were to help everyone and not just himself but the obvious conclusions to such cruelty will never make sense to me. On another note, more time to myself as an adult seems best for me so long as I am proactive with it 🤷🏻♀️
Wow great words, can also relate to you a lot. Ironically: To me therapy with many doctors and therapists works. What i had to find out myself is that i "need to relearn" various feelings to get my strength to go out and see a lot of people (joy to see someone for example as in excitement and many more...). Personally i have PTSD which is also a reason for my isolation times now and then, but it can help me to isolate with PTSD if i use the time for a meditative self-therapy. I put time and effort into formulating to myself in thoughts how i feel and how my situation is impacting me. I noticed many people don't do that, asked a few of the closest... probably this mentioned "scientist" of the video also didn't took his time to think about himself for a moment.
Same. I don't think I could even *be* cured if I had inflicted such suffering on another living creature. The resulting guilt would just be too deep to ever climb back out of that emotional hole, and I'm not sure I'd *deserve* to climb out of that hole either if I willingly hurt something this badly.
It’s interesting that we learnt about Harlow’s cloth and wire frame mother experiments in Psychology at my school in our attachments section but the ethical issues and criticisms of the study were barely taught other than ‘there were some ethical concerns’
Harlow was some piece of work. His studies seem to have been used in the design and methods used for the Supermax Federal Prison in Florence, and likely many others.
Harlow's work is usually difficult to watch/hear/read - I can' imagine how difficult it must be to research and make a video - respect! Well done video as well. I hadn't heard much about the man - sounds like a really unhappy person.
This experiment explains a lot about why I as an adult, spend so much money "collecting" toys and action figures that I had as a child. Nostalgia and attachment because of an absent "real" parental figure explains a lot.
No way! I just brought this up last week. Don't know if I'll make it through this one. I recall watching this is in middle school, and the relatability was devastating. Thanks for posting this. Well covered, as usual. The actual videos of this study are so gutting. Harlowe's study makes a good point, albeit basic (and cruel), and it's precisely the stuff that would get lost to time without renewed coverage like yours. Harliwe, you were a dick. That's a clinical statement.
I seriously doubt it'd be lost to time, at least any time soon. I learnt about this dickless momma's boy in high school, and again in college. Hell, my mental health program had a course about overcoming trauma that was partially predicated on the results of this atrocity dressed up as legitimate psychological experimentation.
Yeah, it definitely is relatable. Its strange, obviously I have been socialized before I got isolated for maybe a few years but at least over 6 months of almost no social interaction except with cashiers, but the loss in conversational skill, speach, mimicry and knowing what is expected of you is absolutely remarkable even in humans. It took me quite some time of regular interactions with people to build up back to where I was when I left high school...
I can't believe middle school age children were subjected to this, did they at least ask your parent's permission to show it to you? Did it give anyone nightmares or anything? Was anyone angry? Do you remember how it affected you? It seriously disturbs me and I'm in my 50s. I already didn't trust shrinks when I was a kid, seeing this at school would absolutely enraged me. I probably would have been expelled and worse over the paper I wrote about it.
"His subjects wouldn't initiate contact" Well yeah at that point the psychologically broken macaque babies probably assumed any new thing was a cruel trap.
I worked in oil fields for about the last 8 years before coming home to Arizona. I met many drivers who were nearly depressed with loneliness, one in particular was at his wits end about it and broke down crying in front of me. It was an isolated job but the employees usually saw each other at least once a night, sometimes not for a day or two though. Rates of singles, couples and/or children near us all varied. I found myself occasionally talking to someone endlessly, not being aware that I was jabbering on and on. I found similar behavior in other drivers annoying, so once I realized it, I started walking away after a few minutes of conversation whether it was warranted or not. I wasn't lonely either. I've driven trucks for thirty years and am used to being alone. I'm also introverted and prefer it to being in crowds. But until I went into the oil fields, I hadn't realized I needed at least occasional chit chat with people. Out there, there's often nothing and no one, no cell signals either. I've never been trapped in a dungeon but monkeys aren't human. However, I would agree with the 6 or 7 rating, probably leaning towards 8.
I have pretty bad clinical depression. I have never considered inflicting unimaginable cruelty on animals of any kind as a way to address my own issues.
i feel as though Harlow's attitudes towards his test subjects and his struggles with mental health is proof enough for impacts of lack of parental contact/connection, as it has been noted that his parents (especially his mother) were quite cold to him dude pretty much said "yo i have some mommy issues imma go torture some monkeys to try and find out whats up with me"
I think it’s telling how he literally knew what would happen to the monkeys from his experiment and even alluding to their torture with his nicknames for his devices. He would 100% do this to human subjects if he could just cause he could.
despite what he did, I honestly can’t think of Harlow as “evil” as his experiments weren’t purely motivated by the need to torture, but also strongly by the need to find a cure for his own depression, which in turn would’ve helped other people with depression. It’s a “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” scenario
Yeah I agree, he is more of a tragic figure than a malicious one. He also underwent electro shock therapy that seemed to worsen his depression and not make it better.
@@geraldkenneth119 If I may, perhaps it is in hindsight from our time now to say it must have been painfully obvious that it isn't a good idea, maybe back then they thought it was worth trying because they didn't know the outcome. Or that it somehow gave results that might give the impression it 'worked' not by curing somebody, but by reducing behaviors associated with whatever it was they were trying to treat? It's like being strapped into a bath tub and sprayed with hot and cold water, it seems bloody obvious it wouldn't help, but somebody felt the need to try, and somebody thought the outcome 'might' have changed behaviors... not necessarily for the better, but a change is a change.
"I wonder what would happen if I stuck an animal (or a human) in a box by himself/herself for six months all by themselves? That's what I thought." Do you really need to test what you already know?
as someone who might have depression or might have some other mental disorder, what i will never understand is why Harlow felt the need to create depression in any other living being. like yeah, okay, he thought maybe it could lead to a cure, but like....that still doesnt excuse it in my mind. depression is awful...why would you subject anyone, animal or human, to it?
Great video! Honestly the effect on those poot monkeys would make me want to rate it a little higher since isolation is the height of psychological torture for primates. Also, I don't know if you have heard of the romanian orphanage observational studies on the impact of neglect on children, but I think they are stricking and very telling about the effects of abuse.
Honestly if he was going to see if socializing helps depression he could've just done a study with volunteers who have depression and put them in group therapy and surveyed them to see the before and after of different amounts of time for the same results he got here. Better yet with multiple groups of _different_ people for a bigger sample size. Since group therapy _existed_ back then. Not only would it actually be more useful in terms of the results since it's humans being tested but nobody, animal or human, would be hurt (If anything it would help people). It's just one out of many different ideas that could _actually_ help people like him without causing harm. What he did was just unnecessarily cruel and has no excuse.
It is obvious that the cause of depression is well understood even in a black and white film yet none try to prevent it and instead prescribe 86 million anti depressants. Lets cause a problem and then scratch our heads on how to solve it. The cure for depression is a society without people like this doctor. The monkeys were fine till the doctor abducted their subjects, caged them and tortured them...its 2024 and 86million antidepressants, engineered loneliness epidemic and 10 trillion dollar pharma industry. Follow the money, your misery is someone elses incentive. I wonder who is paying for all the sharable propaganda on social media. It costs someone money for every caption and meme on your wall yet none question the motives of those who pay for something like that. Would you pay money to a social media company so some stranger sees your quote or caption?
Professor R.Porsolt, in Rouen (France) created a line of depressed mice. He selected the mice that gave up more easily in a test (Forced swim in the dark to find an exit in a pool, AKA "the Morris' aquatic labyrinth") and make them reproduce. In the 14th generation, their descendants double their parents' time of resignation. That shows how depression is mostly genetic, those poor monkeys were tortured for nothing. 50 years later, Harlow could have depressive mice to test a treatment for depression...
I'm glad you're making these videos about these horrible experiments. But I just can't bear to watch. But shining light on this horribleness far outweighs my comfort.
*Harry Harlow dies* "Where am I? Am I in Hell?" Harambe: "Not so lucky buddy, you're in My realm now." "W-what are you? Why is a gorilla talking to me?" "Shouldn't have done what you did to those monkeys, Harry. This is what you get, for the rest of eternity." *loud, eternal sounds of gorilla violence*
He said to a colleague that he made the design so crushingly awful "because that's how it feels when you're depressed." He was already there by the time this project was underway.
The "Partial isolation experiment" is alive and kicking every day for farm animals around the globe. In fact, if you think about it, several aspects of these experiments are. Calves are separated from their mothers to produce dairy/milk - and isolated in "iglos" and fed a watered down mixture or are simply killed after a while if they're not sold and shipped away in horrendous conditions. Pigs are kept in crates to breed piglets, for months on end, without being able to turn around or do anything. Pigs are social, intelligent, creatures with cognitive abilities of a 3-4 year old child. I find it fascinating that we are so appalled by these experiments, yet we have no problem buying bacon or yogurt that "require" the same torture as we see in this video.
That's because most of the world eats Bovine and Swine meat. While their suffering is horrible, it somewhat necessary to feed the world. But Reeses monkeys aren't eaten by most of Human population, so this suffering is completely unnecessary.
I'm not vegan but i think the meat and dairy industry need to change, i feel like meat can be consumed ethically but the people making it prioritize money over ethics, as it usually goes
Saying your first name in the intro of your videos is a really good idea. It makes you seem WAY more personable. Also, a first name is hardly enough information to 'doxx' someone, so it's not like you're oversharing
Other names Harlow proposed for the Pit of Despair include "Oubliette of Angish", "Prison of Pain", "The Misery Machine", "The Gloominator", "Monkey Torture-tron 2000", and "The Sad Box"
You’d think spending so much time and relating to these animals would have gradually cut back on the cruelty, but Harlow got more and more cruel. That’s why I think Harlow was a horrid person.
@Tide Pod Pad Thai he stated in one of his interviews that he genuinely didn't care about the monkeys. If they died, he'd chuckle and get another. As long as they gave him results that he could publish, they did their job and were killed anyway. I do not care if he was trying to explore his own depression and find a cure; because being so cruel and uncaring cannot be excused.
16:15 Bruh that is so crazy. Socially, I had a pretty normal upbringing until I was about 10. Then, I was bullied a lot and experienced long periods of isolation. Even though I am better now, I still have trouble making social contact first. If somebody talks to me, I can talk to them, but I had trouble initiating social interactions sometimes. I have been working on getting over it and have made progress, but I was haunted by that for a long time. I feel like those monkeys lol
Kind of reminds me of white torture. You put someone in a white painted room with a white chalk floor lit 24/7 with fluorescent lights. Feed them irregularly so they lose all perception of time, for example 2 meals a day (always white rice) for 5 days then 4 meals a day for 5 days and so on. No sound can be heard and the guards wear padded shoes so the prisoner will never hear if somebody is around. People have been kept in these conditions for years. It's still done in some parts of South America. I wouldn't mind if it was done to Gislane Maxwell, maybe after a year or so she would be willing to offer a few names and give evidence.
@@sheldoniusRex True. Apparently she was kept in solitary for two years, probably so that she didn't open up to other inmates. Or maybe so that other inmates didn't open her up.
Really? We can't stop hearing about it everyday. People today are constantly talking about their mental health. In the past your mental health was yours, as you were the only person that can do anything about it. It worked. Today people treat it like something to be proud of, tell everyone, a reason to explain their bad behaviors.
@@SwuaveWEB this kind of thinking leads people who legitimately have issues to try and hide them so please, everyone, calm down and be rational. theres no need to broadcast your issues, but its not okay to tell people to just shut up about them either
I knew about this experiment already and hearing it again now just gives me a glimpse of the dispair they must have felt. I have no words for how cruel this was and a part of me wishes that Harlow would have been put into that creation of his for the rest of his life as punishment but I also know that that's exactly how you don't resolve such behaviour.
I would defend him from you and put you in the pit instead 😈 I'm a healthy minded person instead of a freak that values animals over Human life. Unlike many people on youtube comments who probably don't leave their basements
Harlow had no business being a scientist, his experiments being little better than outright torture. In fact, the "pit of despair" sounds almost like something used on POWs in the Vietnam War...
Sorry to burst your bubble but many scientific experiments were like this, or worse, for the animal subjects. Many medicine and vaccines were developed by experimenting on monkeys and infecting them with diseases
I think on top of the efficacy scale you should have a discovery scale. Because while the experiment was very inhumane the results of it where incredibly interesting and made me reflect on aspects of my own up bringing
I understand the need for animal testing. For initial testing of lifesaving drugs (or sometimes non-lifesaving drugs). But this isn’t it. Monkeys aren’t humans and don’t have the same behavioral patterns so any data collected from his experiments would just be disregarded as not useful because they’re not human, thus making his experiments not worth the cost to those monkey’s mental health
If they were set free, then at random Isolated again, then set free, then isolated, they would probably become apathetic/catatonic like at some stage. Because then it would seem more unpredictable but often enough to become a pattern where joy over freedom will be replaced with dread for the next time it will happen. So at least he didn't go that far I guess.
Who wishes they could have put Harlow in his own isolation experiment for the rest of his life. Unnecessary cruelty to those monkeys, anyone associated with this experiment should be ashamed of themselves and in my mind tortured till father time runs out.
For a monkey, this is really horrible. For humans, it is not horrible. Many humans go weeks without seeing another human. They just become anxious around others humans and continue their isolation on their own as introverted humans. Being social is not very important for humans, as it is for monkeys. I go weeks without seeing a single human.
1950s: Let's research the bond between a mother & child through the use of baby monkeys & mother decoys. 1970s: Let's create a medieval monkey dungeon!
Didn't watch this because I know I can't handle it. Just dropped in to comment and like. Your stuff is always great but I have a feeling my heart can't handle this one.
he did amazing things for science. We understood the bonds between mother and infant because of him. Before that mothers were told NOT to show any affection towards their child. His research did good. having said that, it's unbearable to look at those monkeys, he showed no empathy or remorse at all. It is cruel what he did to the monkeys and should never be done again to any type of creature. I hate him, but he did some type of good by doing such a cruel and evil thing.
Sorry buddy I love your videos but I just can’t do this one. I bet it was hard to make, and I am sure you put in the same care and professionalism you always do. This subject is a bit much for me at present, eventually I will circle back around.
As an animal lover, I find this immensely heartbreaking. Subjecting any creature to any level of suffering is despicable. This Harlow obviously as devoid of compassion. Moreover, academic creeps like him are only interested in getting grant money and trying to make a name for themselves regardless of how unethical their process is to get there. I hope God punishes him like he punished those poor monkeys.
Where would you rate this series of experiments on my scale? 1 Being not bad 10 being pure evil!
10
They didn't learn anything new and just hurt innocent animals
an 8! humans are definitely capable of doing worse .. but this is still pure evil
well... compared to animal product testing id give this a 4. its some sad monkeys. zoos have them.
4.7
10. He proved nothing other than being cruel has negative consequences.
I understand that, at some point, Harlow created "monster mothers." That is, cloth mothers that would occasionally poke the infants, or suddenly shake and throw the infants off.
...The interesting result is that the infants *clung even more desperately to the "monster mother".*
Harlow had managed to model the way abused children and partners paradoxically bond more intensely to their abusive parents or spouses.
As I recall, the monster mothers couldn't do any of that. However, being made of wire under the cloths, they lacked warmth, response and weren't comfortable in the slightest. It's possible the researchers would shake the monster mothers from above though.
Turns out things that are utterly dependent on someone else for survival can get pretty desperate.
@@nachgeben there were two types of "mothers", i think this channel covers the ones you're speaking of in another video of this same series. i don't think they covered the "monster mothers" though, but i think the channel Shrouded Hand, has covered both this, and other parts of this person's experiments, including the pit of despair, the monster mothers, raperack, and so on.
@GetThePitchforks !!! This hit me to the bone. I feel personally attacked. LOL.
Ugh, that comment gave me goosebumps. 😰
what i've learned from this series is that psychology scholars in the 20th century absolutely hated rhesus monkeys
Perhaps they were reminded of themselves? Lol
This made me cackle more than it ought to have
Those poor monkeys never stood a chance :C
Confirmed @11:29
They really do suck
Harry seems to perfectly fit the stereotype of a psychologist who gets involved in psychology in an attempt to find out what's wrong with himself, rather than the desire to help or even just understand other people. His wife was at home literally dying (and did in fact die) while he was doing these experiments.
It's cowardly to defame someone who's not even here to defend themselves from the rumors and accusations
@@MybeautifulandamazingPrincess Man tortured monkeys if anyone's the coward it's that asshole. Hope wherever he is he's rotting.
@@prixe12 Monkeys are necessary for the advancement of science and betterment of Humanity. In many other scientific experiment's monkeys and other animals went through much worse than this
Although one could argue they were unethical, this guy's experiments provided various beneficial scientific data, like the importance of mother/parent attachment for the cognitive development of an infant
@@MybeautifulandamazingPrincess The findings of this study are laughably basic, as is your grasp of the English language. I made no accusations, and the truth isn't defamatory. But if you have any more poorly thought out opinions you'd like to add, feel free to bravely comment again.
@@othertalk3313 You claimed that he didn't have a desire to help his wife... Well you didn't live with him to know why he acted the way he did
A lot of people cope with loss by dedicating everything into their work. The loss of his wife probably made him even more obsessed with his work
Well you may think his findings are basic and unimportant, but that's precisely thanks to the discoveries he and others like him made, that they became common practice in psychology, Specially in child development. Like the importance of parent attachment and emotional support for a toddler's mental development
Surely you can argue the experiments were cruel and unethical, but they weren't useless or unimportant
I'm surprised you didn't mention the fact that Harlow tried to study the maternal instincts in a few of the pit of despair monkeys. When they refused to engage with the males, he restrained them in a device he called the "rape rack". And the mothers either ignored the resulting children or killed them outright.
TH-cam puts you in monetization pit of despair if you use word "rape", no matter how scientific your approach to and presentation of a subject is.
That’s fucked up I don’t know a more eloquent way to say it
Have you seen what happens when you even allude to rape in any video now?
You can't even say "sexually assaulted" most true crime you tubers have to simply say "assaulted" and can't say anything more than that.
Even calling it an "assisted breeding rack" or "reproduction rack" would likely get the video demonetized.
I have heard the term ‘non consensual sex’ be used. Kind of negates what really happened.
@@maciekr4641 pretty horrible platform for any type of darker educational subject matters,
but the site is also ran by bots by now, i'm pretty sure
Basically, the best conclusion of Harlow’s work is: torturing monkeys or other beings doesn’t cure depression.
Very well put
he found out alot about childhood development.
We did learn how quickly you can fuck someone up, and how crucial a parent figure is.
We knew already, but now we know how bad it can be.
well tbf the point of the torture was to cause depression, so then he could try to cure it. the torture was not made to cure depression
hes studies where very important to understand social anxiety disorders
"He did this in the only way he knew how; by terrorizing rhesus monkeys."
I think might be the only time in history anyone has ever said that.
"Love at Goon Park" is a good read, people should check it out.
This should be on a shirt #merchideas
You know, some people go to therapy, other people try to find an interesting hobby, and some just plainly terrorize harmless animals.
I feel awful for it but I laughed at the absurdity of the sentence.
@Lex60 - Exactly and we all know how serial killers have sick tendencies towards terrorizing animals. Harlow clearly had some kind of personal/mental issues of his own going on inside his mind. Make no mistake, this isn't science... Harlow's work is the work of a madman and none of his work should be idolized in any way.
@@__WJK__ I second that!
I was home-schooled until high school in the backwoods of the american midwest. I can definitely tell you that total isolation from your peers while being raised by a dysfunctional mother is, indeed, quite socially stunting. I'm 30 now and I am still learning how to interact with people my own age. I do much better with people older than me bc everyone at my parents church that I was allowed to interact with was older than me. [my mom seldom let me hang out with the church kids outside of sunday school]
Somewhat similar experience in the city. I was an only child allowed to go to school, BUT my borderline personality disorder (BPD) mother was a teacher at that school, and she was watching me like a hawk 24/7. I had "recess friends" at school, but wasn't allowed to visit with them outside school hours. In 7th grade, I was allowed to join the scouts, BUT my mother was co-leader and went with us on camping trips. High school was the same -- no extra curricular activities, unless Mom was allowed to "supervise" in some capacity.
Thanks to the good influence of one of my mother's friends (she had very few) I was allowed to attend University out of town; and that's where, in a dorm, I felt intense liberation, and started to (cautiously) socialise, though I never risked dating boys in the whole 4 years. I deliberately related to the opposite sex as a "big sister", sociable,--preferably in groups-- but unromantic. It took until my late 30s to "normalise".
Becoming a devout Catholic helped.
At age 42 , at a Church event, I met the love of my life, a quiet, kind widower much older than me; We married and had a wonderful 30 years until he died a few years ago. I live contentedly with my cat and think all considered, I am a normal person who appreciates the quiet joys of life more the older I get. I know shall die trusting in a God I know loves me; content, unafraid, with few regrets.
I have forgiven my mother -- Before she died, I learned that she was molested by "a family friend" when she was 12 or so. Because of WW II and poverty, therapy was never an option for her. This explains her intense protectiveness of me.
this was my experience too... except I was homeschool really shittily and for my whole life... I'm 19, and it's so fucking scary looking down the seemingly endless precipice between me, and getting a job, meeting people, trying to be independent... when I'm so incompetent and don't know anything about the real world. I don't even feel human, and being around them makes me feel depressed, especially because it just reminds me of how clearly different i am.
does it get better? I don't expect to just get over this, but I'd like to know if it at least becomes bearable, because right now i don't see myself making it to 30
Same here mate but my problem goes far beyond because I cant even stand other human beings
I would've been good working there. I HATE baby macaques especially. Would've been fun torturing those freakin RATS! Hahahahaha!
same buddy. Still feel significant difficulty with peers. it's been helpful career wise because I easily befriend older people but outside of work im desperately lonely.
A video clip from these experiments is burned in my mind forever
It’s of a young monkey put into a cage with others and instead of interacting it just wraps it’s hands over its head and paces around looking for a place to hide
It’s really heartbreaking
so very sad
Sadly there’s a whole “genre” of abused/neglected baby monkeys on TH-cam where they exhibit the same traumatic behaviour such as self clutching while someone films it.
I’ve seen some pretty horrendous things in the effort to report those videos but it’s a losing battle, there’s new people starting baby monkey torture channels (under the false pretence of them being a pet) everyday. I guess Harlow isn’t alone in his interest of psychologically torturing baby monkeys.
The popularity of this “genre” on TH-cam does make me question if Harlow himself had underlying sadistic motivations for doing SO many intentionally cruel baby monkey experiments, considering normal people can’t stomach even a short clip of what he put those monkeys through.
@@Sanakudou I want to see what you’re talking about but I’m genuinely scared to search it n have TH-cam think all I want to see from now on is tortured animals
I learned about pet monkeys last year. They often looked malnourished and in bad shape. Often presenting injuries with some really far fetched explanation. One time they kept ignoring a baby monkey leaving it screaming on the ground. As I understand it they are extremely clingy and refusing to hold them is psychological abuse
Not to mention they are always baby monkeys and never adult ones. It's like they go up in smoke when they get old and stop being cute and/or "fight back".
There are these viral videos showing a monkey called Bibi playing with animals on this "farm" but I'm skeptical as fuck. She's a Japanese macaque baby and they get bigger. Will she disappear as well when she grows up? What's she doing when the camera isn't rolling?
I get why science has to do some things, but others just seem so cruel for no reason.
This one was pretty cruel
He lost his wife, so decided to work through his loss and depression by mentally torturing these primates.
What happens if we traumatize monkeys? They become traumatized. Such learning.
@@bluejar5614 But was it? If you want to see what isolation does to people, there are plenty of existing cases of it without engineering more. And while I get that studying people who have found themselves in that situation removes the laboratory controls, it also removes the psychological/neurological difference between humans and monkeys. I'm not sure what valuable insight was gained from these experiments beyond the obvious "Social isolation is bad." Or to pose it as a more practical question, what did psychologists who work with patients gain from these experiments to help those patients?
@@bluejar5614 you need isolating from your keyboard.
As someone who has suffered with depression from adolescence, I put this at a 12. The needless, cruel suffering inflicted on those poor creatures makes me physically ill. Big hugs for anyone else hit hard by this one.
Literally everyone has depression in their lifetime. Only recently have people go around telling everyone about it.
You would hate working in biochem and genetics and I would not blame you for it at all, arguably it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be, things have improved a lot but in some areas you just can't work without animal experimentation- there's often no alternative- and it's just something that's so commonplace you don't even think about it. I'm stuck in this weird duality where I hate the concept and it's realisation but acknowledge that it is indispensable part in the greater process of teasing apart the mysteries of the structure of the world around us, and the dizzying complexity of the objects and creatures in it and the systems that make it all tick. Torn between sober scientific pragmatism and empathy twisting a dagger in my gut, I often wish I was more stupid and ignorant.
It was crushing to grapple with the concept of the products I viewed when leafing through a scientific instruments company's catalog one time and finding these card/paper/plastic cones with the tip cut off branded "Decapicones" in sizes for various rodents, I hate to think that the demand for harvesting brains without damaging them for microscope study on such a massive scale creates a profitable market for such a product.
I’ve got anxiety and my husband has depression, and this shit hit me hard too. I’m also an animal lover so an experiment so needless and so cruel to a literal metric fuck ton of animals made me want to desecrate this man’s grave. Like, I get that in some cases animal studies are the only viable method to test a device or a therapy or procedure or something, but this is so pointlessly cruel and with such obvious outcomes that all I can say is that Harlow was as much of a blatantly evil sadist as Count Rugen from The Princess Bride… Who also had a torture chamber called the Pit of Dispair…
I've gone through severe depression, anxiety and addiction. And it always amazes me that everyone shows outrage for these animals but humans in the same conditions are roundly ignored. Just goes to show the priorities of those in charge/in a position to help, just don't act.
@Future Pants lol sounds like you consider yourself a bit of an edgelord, Mr. Pants.
The hardest part to listen to was how they “prepared” them… I don’t know what’s worse… to be taken from the wild and isolated, or to be born alone in the dark…
I just feel like crying in a fetal position. 😭
His lab techs drew the line at hanging baby monkeys upside down in total darkness from birth
Not entirely related to the topic of this video, but I used to have 4 budgies when I was younger (2 males, 2 females). One time, one of the females got a bit moody during mating season and bit one of the males. My little buddy was bleeding a few drops from his head, and I decided to buy a second cage so I could isolate him from the other three so his wounds could heal properly.
Although the cage sat right next to the cage with the other three birds and they were able to see/hear each other, my little buddy became restless and was constantly trying to somehow break through his cage and reunite with the others, and his desperation really showed. 😢 One day later I allowed him to go back to his group, the relief was instantly, and luckily nothing bad happened again.
From this example alone, I can only imagine how these monkeys must have felt. Truly heartbreaking. 😭
a moment for all the monkeys that suffered for this genius to figure out being alone makes people sad
One of the shortest comments in here about the topic but also the best and most accurate.
But they want people to be alone. Alone people don't form unions or rebellions. Now to just come up with a cheap pill that will "treat" them for their natural despair so they won't rebel. SSRI's for all! I hate it here.
Some of these evil experiments seem to have the most obvious "results" that there isn't even need to do experiments on, like who would've thought isolation causes mental anguish :O
It is a head scratcher
The "result"sought by these experiments is not *IF* it causes depression. It is *HOW MUCH* time it takes, *HOW MUCH* damage it makes
The evil is in *WHY* you need this data? What would it be "useful" *FOR* ? And do not doubt that if someone PAID for the experiments, they had an *application* for the data gathered.
Off the top of my head, and without going too deep into the "evil" side, these ae a few applications: how long can a "monkey" inside a submarine armed with nuclear missiles, underwater, with limited contact, no sunlight remain effective? Or inside a missile bunker?
I have worst ideas than that, but rather not share them.
Peace!
But the scientific process as explained by Aristotle needs no opinion or judgment
The experiments have the most obvious results because of the very same experiments. You were born after such experiments, which is why they seem obvious to you. These scientists contributed to science and humanity, and you have free access now to a lot of advancements thanks to them, including medicines and vaccines, that are also tested on monkeys
@Kevin it is hardly ever to avoid something.
it is almost always about weaponizing something, to capitalize on it and for the sponsor to benefit
There are many ethical issues with these studies, but my specific concern is the labelling of 'depression' when psychological trauma might seem more accurate. I'm not a psychologist, but I feel like Harlow was heavily anthropomorphising his subjects and projecting his own issues on to them.
Your videos are so amazing! My 76 year old father is still a practicing radiation oncologist with lots of radium-coated pottery on display he loves to test his geiger counter on for people. he's a huge fan of your channel and recently has been sharing back to me your videos that aren't even radiation based😂❤
Thats really cool thank you! Say Hi to him for me!
@@PlainlyDifficult wow thanks for the response. I sure will!
Op
15:49 Needless to say, "... but Harlow wasn't just creating loads of depressed monkeys for no reason," is among yr best narrative work to date! Thanks again.
One crucial bit of context is that the prevailing psychology of the time was that infants - primate and human - formed attachment based on food being provided, and saw maternal attachment as a source of weakness and harmful to development. Harlow was setting out in part to prove that wrong.
This guy had some serious mommy issues in his day. Good study as always, John!!
Thanks again!
I am autistic, so probably not a common opinion, but I only really speak to family and ex wife socially, and obviously my children, I take them to the park and play games with them, but on my time alone, I don't care if I speak to someone at all. I just play games, and I genuinely wouldn't care if I didn't speak to/have a friend/partner again. I enjoy spending time with my children, but genuinely literally hide from people.
Obviously though, for monkeys, I'd say this is extreme cruelty because their main "play" activities, are social activities, and I of course don't have 0 contact with other humans, so don't really count, but I just find it difficult (hence ex wife...) to imagine a life where I'd want to be in a social situation. Poor monkeys :(
Also wow, ironic issues plaguing him, I don't believe in coincidences, nor karma.... But if you look at time in a retrospective/causality aspect, his life was hit by massive "karma"
@@peoplethesedaysberetarded both comments make total complete sense to me
Non binary trumps autism...
@SWISS1337, I have some idea what you mean. I have Aspberger's but as I was born in the mid-60s it wasn't diagnosed until I was in my early 50s.
Their initial hunch was that I was a sociopath as I only cherish interacting with those who give me something. Even with them I need alone time which I often lose track of.
I lucked out. My parents and my much-older siblings recognized that I was a strange kid and taught me how to appropriately socialize. We now joke that I can pass for human.
I work only enough to keep the things that I need coming, even if it's a long term investment that only comes to fruition later. I'm a good spouse, parent, community member, and employee but mostly because it makes my life easier.
My spouse of 35 years recognized it early on and it suits her fine. Our relationship is an exchange, openly and candidly, no presumptions or games. I am very lucky in that.
I was raised in the middle of nowhere Texas, and my parents both worked nights. This meant I wasn't allowed to be home during the day and would typically just wander through the woods until sunset. Well my parents, when they were around, beat me so often that I stopped crying during it and that made them uncomfortable, so they started grounding me instead. I loved being grounded because I wasn't allowed to be home during the day normally, and was able to sit in my air conditioned room and read books. When they realized it wasn't an effective form of punishment though... they started taking away my things. Eventually I would be grounded for days or weeks in an empty room with just a bed. My own personal pit of despair. There is no way to describe the amount of psychological damage this caused me. There is no way to isolate the effects. This is a terrible method of study.
"Pit of Despair" is an awesome name for an area in a Dark Souls game.... that alone should tell you how horrid the concept is in real life.
😂😂
I mean, it’s basically an oubliette.
Sounds more like a young teenager's first death metal band that he thinks isn't mainstream.
Also the name of the Torture Chanber in The Princess Bride where thet had a machine that literally sucked the life out of people. I wonder if the author had any inspiration from this assholes er… creative… naming scheme?
Harlow had no empathy
How could you deliberately want others to suffer the same misery and feelings you experience
-maybe to feel validated? or that your feelings are validated?
maybe you just want others to suffer as bad as you're doing?
maybe you feel so bad that you can't stand the thought of anyone being better off than yourself?
Wanting others to have to experience the same suffering that you have is part of human nature. That is why we have "hazing rituals" and "character building activities" or when people say "back in my day.. blah blah..". We as people think that if someone hasn't suffered the same level of trauma as you, they are not as well developed or are weaker than you. It is a messed up way to develop social hierarchy.
That's where the ethical questions come in. Better for monkeys to suffer than humans, especially when trying to figure out depression. Sure, there's alternatives where we could try things out on already depressed people but then what if that just makes things worse for them? Sure, minimize suffering. But then how do we know if those studies were thorough enough to produce results that can be used with humans in later stages of research? We know severity of suffering often produces distinctly different people: you might be isolated for a couple weeks and all it does is make you more grateful for things while being isolated for six months can severely alter how you interact with everyone in your life, to the point you can't even participate in some forms of treatment anymore.
Science!
But even after admitting this, there is no catharsis
I understand why we use primates, but it hurts to see these guys so miserable
Its really sad
And yet... We still do this to decent HUMANS every day.
@@SpikeKastleman Too true
@@PlainlyDifficult bro I love the topics you cover I just wish I could watch someone who isn't you cover them. You really don't seem to understand delivery and why it's important when making sure the information is received by the audience effectively. Just saying
Grant Board: "So your proposal here says you want to make monkeys sad."
Harlow: "I want to study isolation's effects on depression."
Grant Board: "And you plan on doing this by, and I quote, by putting them in a 'pit of despair'."
Harlow: "That's right."
Grant Board: "Seems perfectly reasonable, you're approved."
As someone with lifelong depression and trauma including social isolation and a mother figure that was often worse than the wire mother- I can understand the desperation to find a cure. But to experiment on anyone but myself? The thought never crossed my mind. I would never want to cause the kind of pain I experienced, even if it cured me forever.
I continue to try every possible solution and, bit by bit, make progress but I’m also aware that the treatments in Harlowe’s time were limited by a lack of understanding whereas I have had access to many therapies and medications. So I can’t fully understand his experience (which I’m thankful for). I will assume his motivations were to help everyone and not just himself but the obvious conclusions to such cruelty will never make sense to me.
On another note, more time to myself as an adult seems best for me so long as I am proactive with it 🤷🏻♀️
Wow great words, can also relate to you a lot. Ironically: To me therapy with many doctors and therapists works. What i had to find out myself is that i "need to relearn" various feelings to get my strength to go out and see a lot of people (joy to see someone for example as in excitement and many more...). Personally i have PTSD which is also a reason for my isolation times now and then, but it can help me to isolate with PTSD if i use the time for a meditative self-therapy. I put time and effort into formulating to myself in thoughts how i feel and how my situation is impacting me. I noticed many people don't do that, asked a few of the closest... probably this mentioned "scientist" of the video also didn't took his time to think about himself for a moment.
Same. Hang in there ❤️
Hugs.
@Future Pants i have to admit you are right about that one.
Same. I don't think I could even *be* cured if I had inflicted such suffering on another living creature. The resulting guilt would just be too deep to ever climb back out of that emotional hole, and I'm not sure I'd *deserve* to climb out of that hole either if I willingly hurt something this badly.
Great words and to answer your question...i think Harlow had serious lack of empathy while people on here have it.
It’s interesting that we learnt about Harlow’s cloth and wire frame mother experiments in Psychology at my school in our attachments section but the ethical issues and criticisms of the study were barely taught other than ‘there were some ethical concerns’
Harlow was some piece of work. His studies seem to have been used in the design and methods used for the Supermax Federal Prison in Florence, and likely many others.
Harlow's work is usually difficult to watch/hear/read - I can' imagine how difficult it must be to research and make a video - respect! Well done video as well. I hadn't heard much about the man - sounds like a really unhappy person.
Thank you
i mean i would also be depressed if i tortured monkeys :/
@@Peron1-MC I'm suspicious it's the other way 'round...
@@dianahowell3423 That's kinda how I see it as well.
@@dianahowell3423no i mean for sure it goes both ways
This experiment explains a lot about why I as an adult, spend so much money "collecting" toys and action figures that I had as a child.
Nostalgia and attachment because of an absent "real" parental figure explains a lot.
For me it's the same 😢
But for photos and music
No way! I just brought this up last week.
Don't know if I'll make it through this one. I recall watching this is in middle school, and the relatability was devastating.
Thanks for posting this. Well covered, as usual.
The actual videos of this study are so gutting.
Harlowe's study makes a good point, albeit basic (and cruel), and it's precisely the stuff that would get lost to time without renewed coverage like yours.
Harliwe, you were a dick. That's a clinical statement.
Thank you!
@@PlainlyDifficult I wonder how many bands have gone by Pit Of Despair.
I seriously doubt it'd be lost to time, at least any time soon. I learnt about this dickless momma's boy in high school, and again in college.
Hell, my mental health program had a course about overcoming trauma that was partially predicated on the results of this atrocity dressed up as legitimate psychological experimentation.
Yeah, it definitely is relatable. Its strange, obviously I have been socialized before I got isolated for maybe a few years but at least over 6 months of almost no social interaction except with cashiers, but the loss in conversational skill, speach, mimicry and knowing what is expected of you is absolutely remarkable even in humans. It took me quite some time of regular interactions with people to build up back to where I was when I left high school...
I can't believe middle school age children were subjected to this, did they at least ask your parent's permission to show it to you? Did it give anyone nightmares or anything? Was anyone angry? Do you remember how it affected you?
It seriously disturbs me and I'm in my 50s. I already didn't trust shrinks when I was a kid, seeing this at school would absolutely enraged me. I probably would have been expelled and worse over the paper I wrote about it.
"His subjects wouldn't initiate contact" Well yeah at that point the psychologically broken macaque babies probably assumed any new thing was a cruel trap.
I worked in oil fields for about the last 8 years before coming home to Arizona. I met many drivers who were nearly depressed with loneliness, one in particular was at his wits end about it and broke down crying in front of me.
It was an isolated job but the employees usually saw each other at least once a night, sometimes not for a day or two though. Rates of singles, couples and/or children near us all varied.
I found myself occasionally talking to someone endlessly, not being aware that I was jabbering on and on. I found similar behavior in other drivers annoying, so once I realized it, I started walking away after a few minutes of conversation whether it was warranted or not.
I wasn't lonely either. I've driven trucks for thirty years and am used to being alone. I'm also introverted and prefer it to being in crowds. But until I went into the oil fields, I hadn't realized I needed at least occasional chit chat with people. Out there, there's often nothing and no one, no cell signals either.
I've never been trapped in a dungeon but monkeys aren't human. However, I would agree with the 6 or 7 rating, probably leaning towards 8.
I have pretty bad clinical depression. I have never considered inflicting unimaginable cruelty on animals of any kind as a way to address my own issues.
The "Welcome Back" is my fav. part.
Thank you! 😬
Harlow said basically "of all my experiments nothing came close to the actual cruelty of the monkey mothers towards their own young"
we studied this experiment in psychology a few weeks ago! thank you for covering it 😚
Thank you for watching
i feel as though Harlow's attitudes towards his test subjects and his struggles with mental health is proof enough for impacts of lack of parental contact/connection, as it has been noted that his parents (especially his mother) were quite cold to him
dude pretty much said "yo i have some mommy issues imma go torture some monkeys to try and find out whats up with me"
The design is quite similar to the Obliette or "forgotten room". Considered the worst punishment possible.
I think it’s telling how he literally knew what would happen to the monkeys from his experiment and even alluding to their torture with his nicknames for his devices. He would 100% do this to human subjects if he could just cause he could.
I just want to say that thanks to this series i got an A in my psychology course so, thank you so much!
despite what he did, I honestly can’t think of Harlow as “evil” as his experiments weren’t purely motivated by the need to torture, but also strongly by the need to find a cure for his own depression, which in turn would’ve helped other people with depression. It’s a “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” scenario
Yeah I agree, he is more of a tragic figure than a malicious one. He also underwent electro shock therapy that seemed to worsen his depression and not make it better.
@@Tokmurok I will never understand why someone thought “let’s shock their brain and see what happens!” Was a good idea
@@geraldkenneth119 If I may, perhaps it is in hindsight from our time now to say it must have been painfully obvious that it isn't a good idea, maybe back then they thought it was worth trying because they didn't know the outcome. Or that it somehow gave results that might give the impression it 'worked' not by curing somebody, but by reducing behaviors associated with whatever it was they were trying to treat?
It's like being strapped into a bath tub and sprayed with hot and cold water, it seems bloody obvious it wouldn't help, but somebody felt the need to try, and somebody thought the outcome 'might' have changed behaviors... not necessarily for the better, but a change is a change.
he didn't just give them depression; they look like they have severe ptsd
Monkey experiments are always interesting yet seem very bad given the way they interact as groups unlike humans. Good video.
Thank you!
"I wonder what would happen if I stuck an animal (or a human) in a box by himself/herself for six months all by themselves? That's what I thought."
Do you really need to test what you already know?
as someone who might have depression or might have some other mental disorder, what i will never understand is why Harlow felt the need to create depression in any other living being. like yeah, okay, he thought maybe it could lead to a cure, but like....that still doesnt excuse it in my mind. depression is awful...why would you subject anyone, animal or human, to it?
I remember learning about that experiment and watched the same video. It’s crazy the ideas people can have
Great video! Honestly the effect on those poot monkeys would make me want to rate it a little higher since isolation is the height of psychological torture for primates.
Also, I don't know if you have heard of the romanian orphanage observational studies on the impact of neglect on children, but I think they are stricking and very telling about the effects of abuse.
Wouldn't be the least surprised if Harry Harlow is resting in a very special pit-of-dispair somewhere in the afterlife!
No wonder there is so much anxiety and depression recently. Reminds me of what this world went through the past few years.
Honestly if he was going to see if socializing helps depression he could've just done a study with volunteers who have depression and put them in group therapy and surveyed them to see the before and after of different amounts of time for the same results he got here. Better yet with multiple groups of _different_ people for a bigger sample size. Since group therapy _existed_ back then. Not only would it actually be more useful in terms of the results since it's humans being tested but nobody, animal or human, would be hurt (If anything it would help people). It's just one out of many different ideas that could _actually_ help people like him without causing harm. What he did was just unnecessarily cruel and has no excuse.
It is obvious that the cause of depression is well understood even in a black and white film yet none try to prevent it and instead prescribe 86 million anti depressants. Lets cause a problem and then scratch our heads on how to solve it. The cure for depression is a society without people like this doctor. The monkeys were fine till the doctor abducted their subjects, caged them and tortured them...its 2024 and 86million antidepressants, engineered loneliness epidemic and 10 trillion dollar pharma industry. Follow the money, your misery is someone elses incentive. I wonder who is paying for all the sharable propaganda on social media. It costs someone money for every caption and meme on your wall yet none question the motives of those who pay for something like that. Would you pay money to a social media company so some stranger sees your quote or caption?
Professor R.Porsolt, in Rouen (France) created a line of depressed mice.
He selected the mice that gave up more easily in a test (Forced swim in the dark to find an exit in a pool, AKA "the Morris' aquatic labyrinth") and make them reproduce.
In the 14th generation, their descendants double their parents' time of resignation.
That shows how depression is mostly genetic, those poor monkeys were tortured for nothing. 50 years later, Harlow could have depressive mice to test a treatment for depression...
I’m a current psychology student at UW-Madison, so I know that unfortunately the primate research building is still named after Harlow.
Of all the psychology studies covered at university, none disturbed me more than this one.
I'm glad you're making these videos about these horrible experiments. But I just can't bear to watch.
But shining light on this horribleness far outweighs my comfort.
*Harry Harlow dies*
"Where am I? Am I in Hell?"
Harambe: "Not so lucky buddy, you're in My realm now."
"W-what are you? Why is a gorilla talking to me?"
"Shouldn't have done what you did to those monkeys, Harry. This is what you get, for the rest of eternity."
*loud, eternal sounds of gorilla violence*
Lmaoooo
As someone who has and still does deal with constant social anxiety, loneliness, and isolation, I feel for these monkeys.
They should have put Harlow in the pits of despair for a year and see if it broke him.
He said to a colleague that he made the design so crushingly awful "because that's how it feels when you're depressed." He was already there by the time this project was underway.
Oh boy was I waiting for this. Thank you!
The "Partial isolation experiment" is alive and kicking every day for farm animals around the globe. In fact, if you think about it, several aspects of these experiments are. Calves are separated from their mothers to produce dairy/milk - and isolated in "iglos" and fed a watered down mixture or are simply killed after a while if they're not sold and shipped away in horrendous conditions. Pigs are kept in crates to breed piglets, for months on end, without being able to turn around or do anything. Pigs are social, intelligent, creatures with cognitive abilities of a 3-4 year old child. I find it fascinating that we are so appalled by these experiments, yet we have no problem buying bacon or yogurt that "require" the same torture as we see in this video.
That's because most of the world eats Bovine and Swine meat.
While their suffering is horrible, it somewhat necessary to feed the world.
But Reeses monkeys aren't eaten by most of Human population, so this suffering is completely unnecessary.
I'm not vegan but i think the meat and dairy industry need to change, i feel like meat can be consumed ethically but the people making it prioritize money over ethics, as it usually goes
I've lived alone for quite a few years and I cling to your videos
Saying your first name in the intro of your videos is a really good idea. It makes you seem WAY more personable. Also, a first name is hardly enough information to 'doxx' someone, so it's not like you're oversharing
the recess episode the Box is a great showcase of the horror of isolation
Other names Harlow proposed for the Pit of Despair include "Oubliette of Angish", "Prison of Pain", "The Misery Machine", "The Gloominator", "Monkey Torture-tron 2000", and "The Sad Box"
That man was one sick bastard. Jesus.
Oubliettes were where you'd put people when you wanted to "lose" or "forget" them as a punishment.
10:12 I think this video was an experiment to see how many people had a heart attack when that noise happened. You have at least one case here.
You’d think spending so much time and relating to these animals would have gradually cut back on the cruelty, but Harlow got more and more cruel. That’s why I think Harlow was a horrid person.
I agree, some scientists think "I hate this, but it has to be done" which still isn't amazing, but i think he delighted in torturing the monkeys
@Tide Pod Pad Thai he stated in one of his interviews that he genuinely didn't care about the monkeys. If they died, he'd chuckle and get another. As long as they gave him results that he could publish, they did their job and were killed anyway.
I do not care if he was trying to explore his own depression and find a cure; because being so cruel and uncaring cannot be excused.
Proof that misery loves company
4:19 this is NOT a Rhesus. It's a macaque, yes, but a Javan macaque, also called Longtailed or crab eating macaque.
To sum it up: Severely depressed scientist projects and forces his depression on monkeys.
I have not had a job for four years and I could not be happier with that I am given.
16:15 Bruh that is so crazy. Socially, I had a pretty normal upbringing until I was about 10. Then, I was bullied a lot and experienced long periods of isolation. Even though I am better now, I still have trouble making social contact first. If somebody talks to me, I can talk to them, but I had trouble initiating social interactions sometimes. I have been working on getting over it and have made progress, but I was haunted by that for a long time. I feel like those monkeys lol
Kind of reminds me of white torture.
You put someone in a white painted room with a white chalk floor lit 24/7 with fluorescent lights. Feed them irregularly so they lose all perception of time, for example 2 meals a day (always white rice) for 5 days then 4 meals a day for 5 days and so on. No sound can be heard and the guards wear padded shoes so the prisoner will never hear if somebody is around.
People have been kept in these conditions for years. It's still done in some parts of South America.
I wouldn't mind if it was done to Gislane Maxwell, maybe after a year or so she would be willing to offer a few names and give evidence.
Trust me, no one in a position of authority is interested in Ms. Maxwell talking. At all.
@@sheldoniusRex True. Apparently she was kept in solitary for two years, probably so that she didn't open up to other inmates.
Or maybe so that other inmates didn't open her up.
It was done in a few prisons in Britain, where they were called Control Units.
So much research and yet mental health still isn’t taken seriously.
to be fair; i don't think much could be gained from these types of "experiments" considering the species involved, methods, etc.
Really? We can't stop hearing about it everyday. People today are constantly talking about their mental health. In the past your mental health was yours, as you were the only person that can do anything about it. It worked. Today people treat it like something to be proud of, tell everyone, a reason to explain their bad behaviors.
@@SwuaveWEB this kind of thinking leads people who legitimately have issues to try and hide them so please, everyone, calm down and be rational. theres no need to broadcast your issues, but its not okay to tell people to just shut up about them either
@@rrai1999 They should hide them.
@@SwuaveWEB I'm sorry you feel that way
I knew about this experiment already and hearing it again now just gives me a glimpse of the dispair they must have felt. I have no words for how cruel this was and a part of me wishes that Harlow would have been put into that creation of his for the rest of his life as punishment but I also know that that's exactly how you don't resolve such behaviour.
I would defend him from you and put you in the pit instead 😈
I'm a healthy minded person instead of a freak that values animals over Human life. Unlike many people on youtube comments who probably don't leave their basements
Invader Zim: I love you, robotic arm...
I remember covering this in college, sad.
Very sad
Yep, Psychology class has some controversial stuff nowadays.
My mind just screaming the plague dogs movie scene in the beginning.
Harlow had no business being a scientist, his experiments being little better than outright torture. In fact, the "pit of despair" sounds almost like something used on POWs in the Vietnam War...
Sorry to burst your bubble but many scientific experiments were like this, or worse, for the animal subjects. Many medicine and vaccines were developed by experimenting on monkeys and infecting them with diseases
the guy was quoted as saying that he outright hated animals so its not too surprising he would treat them thing way
shoving baby monkeys into a cage for months is causing anxiety. Truly, we needed a genius to figure that out.
I think on top of the efficacy scale you should have a discovery scale. Because while the experiment was very inhumane the results of it where incredibly interesting and made me reflect on aspects of my own up bringing
I understand the need for animal testing. For initial testing of lifesaving drugs (or sometimes non-lifesaving drugs). But this isn’t it. Monkeys aren’t humans and don’t have the same behavioral patterns so any data collected from his experiments would just be disregarded as not useful because they’re not human, thus making his experiments not worth the cost to those monkey’s mental health
If they were set free, then at random Isolated again, then set free, then isolated, they would probably become apathetic/catatonic like at some stage. Because then it would seem more unpredictable but often enough to become a pattern where joy over freedom will be replaced with dread for the next time it will happen. So at least he didn't go that far I guess.
Who wishes they could have put Harlow in his own isolation experiment for the rest of his life. Unnecessary cruelty to those monkeys, anyone associated with this experiment should be ashamed of themselves and in my mind tortured till father time runs out.
For a monkey, this is really horrible. For humans, it is not horrible. Many humans go weeks without seeing another human. They just become anxious around others humans and continue their isolation on their own as introverted humans. Being social is not very important for humans, as it is for monkeys. I go weeks without seeing a single human.
“He did this by the only way he knew how, by terrorizing Rhesus monkeys”
Always love the cheesy animation John, but was disheartened that clipboard man didn't make an appearance. I rate this a 6 on the ethics scale.
He will return, thanks for the comment
1950s: Let's research the bond between a mother & child through the use of baby monkeys & mother decoys.
1970s: Let's create a medieval monkey dungeon!
He made it way more complicated than necessary he could have just used a modern school
Didn't watch this because I know I can't handle it. Just dropped in to comment and like. Your stuff is always great but I have a feeling my heart can't handle this one.
Dude really tortured monkeys instead of going to therapy.
I've never had a single teacher mention that he was attempting to find a cure for himself. That's extra sad on top of everything else.
Harlow is lucky that the Planet of the Apes monkey rebellion didn't happen while he was performing these "experiments."
That would have been good
This is horrific... imagine if they did something similar to this to people for about 2 years on a global scale...
he did amazing things for science. We understood the bonds between mother and infant because of him. Before that mothers were told NOT to show any affection towards their child. His research did good.
having said that, it's unbearable to look at those monkeys, he showed no empathy or remorse at all. It is cruel what he did to the monkeys and should never be done again to any type of creature. I hate him, but he did some type of good by doing such a cruel and evil thing.
"I'm depressed. I sure wish someone were here to be depressed with me." *Spots 48 monkeys*
Or you know total isolation for social creatures is so traumatising as to lead to severe mental health issues/PTSD.....
It is!
There are some topics I can't cope with on New Years day. This is one of them.
Sorry buddy I love your videos but I just can’t do this one. I bet it was hard to make, and I am sure you put in the same care and professionalism you always do. This subject is a bit much for me at present, eventually I will circle back around.
As an animal lover, I find this immensely heartbreaking. Subjecting any creature to any level of suffering is despicable. This Harlow obviously as devoid of compassion. Moreover, academic creeps like him are only interested in getting grant money and trying to make a name for themselves regardless of how unethical their process is to get there. I hope God punishes him like he punished those poor monkeys.