I'm currently on this journey called drug addiction. In recovery now but if those 🐒 monkeys could talk. The horror aspects of this addiction are far so much worse. And for those who hate using animals for experimental purposes? If it wasn't for their sacrifice so to speak we wouldn't have the useful information we have now. I never said it was right. I know it isn't fair, but here we are.
I still haven't searched for the consequences of the Russian soldiers having their Boy Scout Jamboree on the front lawn of the Chernobyl nuclear reactor. I have heard rumors that the Neutron Capture Game was the favorite. And if the IAEA visit produces anything ghastly, it would be nice to hear a Brief Dark History on it. Thanks!
And yet I'm inside all the time, as I have been for over a decade since I stopped going to school (which was hell by itself) and I'm probably one of the few/only people out of all 5? 6? schools that's never tried drugs or drink or anything that actively harms and is probably very expensive for a one-time experience. I'm just a boring gaming creative person XD Maybe being able to be creative and having games/films/Internet have been the thinsg helping me to avoid it? Nevermind obviously being educated as we all are one way or another? I can see being stuck in a box with literally naff all else (even though we're not given a choice in this case regardless of whether I wanted to or not) might well get me to flick a switch. If I wasn't trying to dig meself out or wreck the arm.
@@Roadent1241 There is a massive difference to self imposed confinement with a large amount of creative or entertainment options, and confinement against your will in a box with absolutely no stimuli aside from a lever that administers substances.
@@bee5440 Well I certainly have never felt human. I've barely been treated like one but that's disability for you. I do go outside. There's nothing and nobody out there except wildlife and trees and fields. What good does going outside do aside from fresh air?
yea thats ag ood interpretation, they at least very unconfortable and were given acess to drugs that made them feel less pain, except for the ones that got cocaine and caffeine
I live with a tube going to my heart that keeps me alive via IV nutrition and medications. The decision to 'resort' to this treatment was an awful one. I've been through many surgeries and failed treatments to avoid it. There's so many possible complications and negative effects, my heart breaks for these poor monkeys who would have had no clue why they're being put through such torture. That's without even going into the drug aspect!!
I feel. It’s utter hell, but at least we can conceptualise it, understand why it’s happening. We can talk our way through it. They don’t have that reasoning, they don’t understand what’s happening to them or why, they’re just in pain. What a pointless experiment.
Omg same here. Me too. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.. they are small animals compared to humans it must have been so much more horrific feeling of an experience than in humans.... The epitome of animal abuse...
And I want to add that literally no useful conclusions were drawn from this study. All the information we know about addiction nowadays is derived mostly from human experience, with a few rat experiments here and there, but this study proved absolutely nothing and only indicated what we already knew at that point. It seems the scientists involved got carried away and did it, not because it would advance science, but merely because they could. The experiment was poorly conceived as well, and had a high chance of giving inconclusive results. As well, the studies did not include ANY information about WHY people get addicted; its purpose was to study ALREADY ADDICTED monkeys, and in that case, why not just use humans? It's not like there was a paucity of humans with addiction. The study also was highly inconclusive because, well, if you were trapped in a cage, would YOU just wanna drink water and wait, or would you wanna take drugs that make you feel better and less trapped? It seems to me that the researchers were making a situation where taking drugs seems to be the only logical choice, making drugs available, then doing surprised pikachu face when the monkeys end up addicted. There was no study about how much addicts will ignore negative consequences, no study about WHY addicts become addicts, no study about environmental factors... just getting monkeys hooked so they could prove the obvious, which is that addictive drugs are addictive. Really a bullshit study, and this makes it more cruel because the animal suffering was completely unnecessary.
Definitely one of the very worst studies I've ever heard of; ethically and scientifically. I mean: Particularly the part, where the drug was auto-ministered anyway. *Humans* may start pulling the lever at that point, because there was no way out anyway. This seems more like a brainstorming, first attempt on paper for a test on how to artificially create depression. It reminds me of the monster experiments, where no matter what some rats did, they would get shocked. As horrible as that was, the helplessness and hopelessness at least served a function. This? This is something a psychopathic fifth-grader may come up with, when posed with the task of studying addiction. There is basically no control, what was even really tested and if anything was found out it probably wouldn't have been comparable to humans in the first place.
I think one potential misconception that needs to be addressed however, is the idea that every scientific study needs to be interesting and lead to compelling results to be useful or valid. Many studies are in fact rather banal, and in many cases seek to replicate or otherwise support the currently prevailing understanding of the phenomena being studied. Now more than 50 years later, one can well question the ethical aspects, but at the time of the study, there was no way of knowing it would not yield some potential novel data until the experimentation was actually undertaken. This can certainly be difficult to appreciate for those of us now in the future, having the 20/20 vision of hindsight.
@@BuddyLee23 Testing for seemingly banal or unimportant stuff is OK. There is even a price for it. The IG nobel price. However, there is a huge difference between documenting homosexual necrophilia in ducks and intentional cruelty for a very, very, very bad study with little to no benefit to anyone. I think that animal testing has its place (although I think it's vastly overused and over-funded, when compared to other studies), but the greater harm and suffering you cause, the greater the potential benefit must be and the more you must make sure that there are no other options. And I don't give a damn about the historical context, when it comes to ethical questions. To put it really, really harshly: There was a historical context to the holocaust, but we can still absolutely judge it as wrong. There were a bunch of disgusting experiments on all sides of the war at the time, too. The fact that everyone was doing it, doesn't make it any less ethically reprehensible.
I think even with the animal cruelty aside, its a fairly rubbish experiment in terms of how it was conducted as all it really showed was that an animal addicted to a substance will continue to take it and not necessarily finding a 'cause' along the way. Considering this was the late 60's it shouldn't have been too hard to find a lot of people engaged in some kind of drug use in the wild, then just do a deeper study on them.
"Scientists" who conduct studies swell with pride until they remember there's a thing called "the scientific method" and they have to expose their work to others. Even Einstein was susceptible to hubris. After publishing his Theory ending in E=mc^2, it looked like there was a chance he was wrong. He wasn't upset he was wrong (imo, because he was a genuine "truthseeker") but, rather, disappointed the aesthetics of such a beautifully simple equation wasn't adequate. Good video! As usual!! 👍🏼☺️
And at some point in my life (in the 80's, iirc), my state provided $180k grant funds to determine whether cocaine was addictive. I'm not kidding. (NC)
Another study was done with rats wherein some rats were kept in a typical cage and only their basic needs were met (food, water, shelter) and the rats were kept in individual isolation. The other set of rats lived communally in a "rat utopia" that provided many forms of mental and physical stimulation. Both sets of rats had open access to a drug (I can't remember which, but I want to say it was cocaine). The first set of rats became completely addicted and used the drug until they died while the second set tried the drug to discover what it was, but ignored it thereafter. Rats, like humans, are social animals. Just having their basic physical needs met is not enough for them to thrive. But if their basic physical needs are met and they are stimulated and accepted as part of a community, they thrive and have no need for diversions such as drugs. EDIT: I should not have used the words "rat utopia," as this makes it seem like I was referring to the infamous Rat Utopia experiment. I am not. I should have said that set of rats had all of their basic needs met not just physically, but socially and emotionally as well.
This is precisely why our "leaders" are working so hard to divide us and keep us locked in our homes. If we do not depend on each other, we will depend on the government, and that dependence keeps them in power.
You missed the part where the "well off rats" ate and cannibalized the others of their elite society till the breeding pairs died off and the whole society collapsed...
I remember hearing about this in a psychology class, back in my college years.yes, it was coke. I always thought it was interesting, and stuck with me, and reminded me never to get caught up in hard drugs.
Imagine people went to school to get a PhD and then spent time and money to get monkeys addicted to dope. They thought this was a valid and ethical usage of their skills and talents. Sad many such cases
As an ex heroin addict I chose dope over everything. Family, friends and freedom. I've been clean since 2016 and now have a wife, son and my own house but the effects still linger. Some nights I wake up soaking wet after dreaming about sticking myself with the needle and my brain no longer produces dopamine so I'm dealing with depression and other shit but it gets better everyday. If anyone out there is struggling just know it gets better once you decide you want to quit. It took me hitting rock bottom and 2 years behind bars for me to quit. I never looked back though and I'm thankful for the 2nd chance. I know to many people that will never get that opportunity.
Just from the title, I could tell this was going to be a cruel and pointless experiment. Especially considering it would be incredibly easy to do an observation study with humans who already are addicted by interviewing them and their loved ones and from rehabilitation centers.
You can study real people all you want, but science is based on conducting controlled experiments. The lack of control groups in the real world will skew any results to the point of being useless. Personal anecdotes, while useful for inspiration, are not scientific in the slightest.
Very odd to make someone addicted you have to "tempt" them with a raisin. Technically that could be peer pressure but maybe the monkey just wanted a raisin, not a hallucinogenic drug. Very grim study and needn't have been done.
None of these were strictly hallucinogenic. The ones that did cause hallucinations were uppers that would prevent sleep, thus inducing hallucinations. With something like psilocybin and lsd you'd show massive lack of effectiveness over the course of time with redosing
In addition to other problems with the experiment's structure, the testing of so many different substances meant that only a handful of animals could be used in any one test. Such a low number of trials all but ensures that outliers have an outsize impact on the results, and makes it easy to completely overlook other less-likely outcomes. It's important that good science be repeatable, and that requires more than just a few test subjects. So the test only showed the obvious, and didn't even do that with convincing certainty. Not only was the Helsinki Protocol ignored, but the suffering of the test subjects, and many of their deaths, were entirely in vain.
Yo you go thru fucking opiate withdrawal than ask your self "do we test this on animals or on humans who will have years of mental truama to move with?" You sound like a Nazi scientist that a animal life is more important than a human soul
As someone who is in recovery from drug addiction this is honestly painful to learn and I really struggled to watch the entire video because of how cruel this experiment really was
People’s view on addiction is all out of whack. My mom overdosed and passed away April 28th 2022, and all I can think about is how happy I am I expressed my unconditional love to her every time I saw her. I let her know I didn’t care what she did, regardless of anything I love her. Don’t shun addicts show them there’s fun and joy elsewhere. Often times we put ourselves in that cage ourselves but it’d be nice if other people were the tiniest bit more courageous to help and open the cage. Love you mom. Sorry we couldn’t get that cage all the way open, but I know you’re not fighting anymore.
Yea they dont constantly lie to you and steal your things. Its not like that has anything to do with people not wanting to associate with drug addicts....
@@TheHamadannerssorry but that has exactly what to do with what they are saying? Nobody said anything about there being no negative consequences in association with drug addicts. Just that THEY were able to empathize and love unconditionally and that when the worst (but not necessarily unexpected) outcome happened, that made it easier to cope with the loss. So your reply kinda sounds like you're shitting on drug addicts just for the sake of it to punish someone else's ability to empathize in a situation where you wouldn't.
Am sorry for your loss, I was a chronic alcoholic who was seen a lost cause by many, until I met a girl who never drank and had NEVER!! Taken drugs but she stuck by me even though I would sleep next to her with a bottle of vodka I would drink every time I woke up to go the toilet I would have a glass ,then I would have a pint of vodka in the morning just to function she would even hold my glass if I couldn't myself due to the shakes I would ask her why are you with me, her answer was because I've seen the real you and I know your in there somewhere, I would be admitted to hospital regularly due to liver problems and chronic pancreatitis, and was warned so many times that if I carried on the way I was going I'd be dead within a year ,she pleaded with me to stop so I did but I gave up to late ,I have cirrhosis of the liver impaired kidneys and chronic pancreatitis and will need a liver transplant in time, the girl who stood by me is now my wife I was diagnosed with cirrhosis at 33 I am now 45 and 11 years and 8 months sober and was told my chances of a liver transplant are slim to none ,so we take every day as a blessing ,I hope by telling my story it helps another person going through or your dealing with a person who is a addict ,don't give up it can be done yes you will relapse but dust yourself off and try again, and to the people who are dealing with n addict don't give up on them because that person is still in there somewhere, only God knows where I'd be now if my wife gave up on me ,
"both switches would be swapped around at random intervals" So assuming the monkeys could tell the switches apart, they would still never know for sure. The people who designed this test are beyond imagination. edit They also had indicative raisins taped to the switch?!
I feel like the study would have been more accurate AND more ethical if they had the monkeys all in the same cage with comfortable living conditions because it would more closely simulate their real environment. Any living creature would want to be blitzed out of their mind if they were locked up all alone in a tiny cage for weeks.
There are hundreds of deep experiments involving animals like this. While I do understand WHY it was done, I can’t help but think there must be another way. This just seems so cruel. I’m sure it would seem cruel back then as well
Buprenorphene was invented in 1966 as an alternative to morphine with the potential to treat narcotic addiction. I don't know if this study played any part int that, but it was around the same time period so I would assume so.
I really believe some of these scientists who did these things were well aware of the uselessness and cruelty of such experiments and did it only to satisfy their own cruel and demented enjoyments and urges. This gave them the opportunity, the funding, the immunity and supposed justification (to soothe what little a little bit of a conscience that they had along with excuse and justification to give peers, family, general public, etc. who were better people and knew better).
I often wonder about the motivation of people working in modern day animal laboratory testing facilities, seeing the undercover videos they are literally filled with pure sadism, rather than anything else. Animals being beaten, trampled, thrown and just generally subject to insane amounts of unnecessary violence - as well as tampering with actual studies to achieve the goal of a company paying for the research rather than the actual result. All of this, considering 99,9% of all animal testing nowadays is completely avoidable, albeit often more expensive when done with cell membranes, simulations and models of various kinds, I just cannot fathom how anyone would want a job like that. Unless you are really ill and feed off sadism against completely defenseless individuals.
@@Notaravisen A lot of sadistic people are drawn into the fields of medicine and veterinary. It seems ironic at first, you wonder why would these people aim for a career consisting of taking care of others and of animals? But then you realize, it’s the power dynamic they’re after. As a doctor or nurse, you have some degree of control over others, who typically come to you in a state where they can’t defend themselves. As a vet, you have control over similarly defenseless animals, that have zero concept of abuse.
What about a farmer who has to kill cows and pigs and chickens so you can eat? Think they do it all lovely like? And you just go to the store and pick up the meat and probably eat it worse than these crack addicted monkeys.
When my fiance passed 2 weeks before our wedding I got hooked. This was My choosing. Yes I am clean now. These animals were forced. How horrible. Addiction to any drug is tragic in itself. People... Stay Away from Drugs. It is just Not worth it.
I was being injected with morphine against my will before bed time everyday for a week. That's when I was recovering after a surgery on my broken leg. Didn't have that much pain as it was healing well, but the doctor wouldn't take no for an answer and kept injecting it into my vein everyday. I was tripping balls in my sleep, hallucinating like crazy, where reality combined with what I was dreaming about:) My room door leading to the balcony was at my full disposal and open 24/7 (hot summer days), so by shear luck I haven't plunged down to my death during one of the nights.
@humpty dumpty Damn that's crazy, but the 95% of moral and good people shouldn't have to suffer a horrible death because the top 5% of the world can't live without a constant stream of bullshit dopamine rushes.
@humpty dumpty well I certainly don't want to be nuked, so unfortunately I don't agree with you. We all know that pain and suffering exists, but the world doesn't consist of pain and suffering only. There is also lots of joy, fulfillment, and good people in the world. So if we destroy the earth, then all of those good things will disappear.
@humpty dumpty I agree that people are terrible but a nuclear war would kill so many more innocent lives then evil ones and would forever destroy so many ecosystems for animals that can't even comprehend what a nuclear bomb is let alone what's it's capable of. The only people who can wish that are NCR Soldiers, because patrolling the Mojave makes you wish for a nuclear winter.
Any reason why the Codeine group died and the Morphine group lived when Codeine is broken down by the liver into morphine anyway. Was it just the doses were less restricted or that the slower time for the body to notice codeine meant to more switch spamming?
You can do it. Just don't be worried if you start feeling like you need it again. I've been off for 30 years and still think I want some. Ignore it, it'll pass.
I did it and it was the hardest thing I've ever done..I had a pretty bad IV fentanyl and cocaine habit...was living on the streets and had lost everything. Detox was brutal...but it does get better...just be patient with yourself..
REALLY well done, i'm about to start watching all of your "Dark Side of Science" series and this was a fascinating starting point. Keep up the fantastic work, one of the reasons I've always leaned towards computers / electrical or mechanical engineering was avoiding the "dark" parts of science, and I've never wanted to experiment on animals or have too to make ends meet.
When he says « psychologically addicting » it means those stimulants are giving you bursts of dopamine and if you stop suddenly, you won’t be getting the same amount. It will cause depression for a few days until the brain recovers. I’d still call that addiction in general.
I love watching these videos! It's insane how much you've improved in editing and stylizing your videos, they're always fantastic to watch. Keep it up👌
So if you ever think your idea is bad, remember that once, THREE people got together and decided that giving monkeys a drug button would be a wonderful idea.
One problem that I can see in this experiment is that they are locking the monkey in a small confined space with absolutely no other stimulus or social interaction and literally nothing else to do but Medicaid itself. So of course it's going to choose to medicate itself. Of course they're just trying to remove variables. I would be interested to see if a monkey would do the same if it was in a healthy social environment
Chimpanzees, Apes,Monkeys all can be scary enough without adding anything. Edit* Primates.... above all enjoyed Plainly Difficults video as I drifted to sleep. 😊
@@hicknopunk I made a colossal blunder of calling a chimpanzee a monkey when its an ape,I am beside myself that I could have been so stupid,John quite rightly pointed out my total ignorance,I really hope that he's OK and I haven't offended him to much.😏
I knew a couple of speed freaks back in the 80's, and I know from them that the withdrawal can be very severe, including seizures and death, it's supposed to be pretty dangerous to go cold turkey off amphetamines, so not too sure if it's correct to say the don't have physical withdrawal symptoms.
Its more dangerous for an alcoholic to stop drinking cold turkey than when quitting most typically abused methamphetamine. You can die from quitting alcohol abruptly.
@@kenw2225 it makes you unable to sleep shaky af and just depressed as all hell, this is my exp with stim withdrawal anyway, it's p hellish lol, it has"only mental effects" BUT the nature of drugs means your brain gets used to the physical effects, and going off of it is fucking hellish for that reason. its just pure depression anxiety and sleeplessness, i tried smoking a mountain of weed for it and it doesn't even touch it, just makes you feel empty exhausted anxious and unable to really feel euphoric
actually this study and others similar were used promote fear of the drugs. Recently have been criticized because substances are not addictive per se, it actually depends a lot on the situation of the animal (including humans or course) Animals in better conditions, with a better balanced environment that provide social stimulation and opportunities to rest, hide and explore are way less prone to addiction. In other words, if you have a balanced life is not as easy to get addicted, and the war on drugs should focus on improving social conditions, not on persecuting people and filling private prisons for profit.
I know it was a different time and standards of animal ethics were different, but I still really question how these people internally were okay with doing this. The idea of a surgeon being willing to perform these operations on the monkeys for the sole purpose of using it to forcibly administer an animal drugs is... horrifying. How can you intentionally do that to a living thing?
I'm gonna keep it a buck, they are monkeys and they are worthless to the world. In fact, the whole reason they (the ones used in the experiment) are even alive is because of the university's colony. They gave and took away their lives.
This is actually kind of tame if you look at all the literally hellish experiments researchers have done on all kinds of animals. At least some of these monkeys got the benefits of pain relievers whilw they suffered.
Out of all the videos you’ve done about heavy subjects, this was the hardest for me. Those poor animals. Still your discussion was very well presented and straightforward. We need to remember and never repeat.
Yeah...I used to get pretty excited too when it was time to get/do a shot of drugs. While I'm glad they were trying to do something for addiction, I hate hearing about the animals they use. I wonder if there's a better way to have gone about this...I believe people come first, but I also don't believe in harming animals for any reason. Then again, if it can save human lives...idk, Such a fine line... oh and BTW, I've been clean 3yrs now.
I watched a few friends (and ex) become so addicted to meth it changed their personalities and pushed all of them into criminal behavior. I expected at least one to drop it because of the legal ramifications, but none did. They're all in jail now. Such a difference from when I was growing up, weed and cheap wine were the thing.
I think the little box in the right hand corner at 17:43 is something that would come up before ads on British tv to signify the switch in content. Very cool detail!
Considering the 60's in America, it seems status-quo that monkeys were turned into riddled drug addicts. I'd like to believe that there were great strides made because of this work, but I don't see it in my city. A more useful study could be seeing what blocks addiction in the candidates who were and were not predisposed to addiction. Creating and studying an inverse chemical relationship to addiction. Always love your work Plainly. Thought provoking and thorough. Thanks for another stellar video!
Interesting that morphine seemed to have the least negative effects and the drug use plateaued. Whereas codeine, a drug which is supposed to be a safer alternative to morphine, resulted in all the subjects dying from overdose
I'd agree with a 4 if the experiment actually had a real purpose, but all it did was show the obvious that could be observed from addict humans. In my opinion it's more ethical to treat them poorly if you are actually making strides in our knowledge which would help people. It seems like they didn't get much here, so it was just pointless cruelty.
I think most of us saw the TED TALK about "rat park" which proved connections with people and given more things to encourage growth instead of in a cage with nothing but drugs. I'm a recovering addict and if I was put in that EXACT same situation as the monkeys in this experiment....that switch for opioids and nicotine would've been broke off!
To ability these researchers have to detach themselves from the cruelty and suffering they cause in the name of science is astonishing and leads me to believe that they are the ones who should be studied to find out what turned them into monsters.
Yeah, that's why I hate all humans who aren't animal lovers. The funny thing is, I became a scientist myself. Apart from science being interesting, my main goal is to find an alternative to animal testing in general. I have an idea, but it'll take a few years.
@@jordanwiser4192 To be fair, I expect scientists with PhDs to be smart enough to come up with an alternative. But to be completely honest with you, yes. I'd rather experiment on humans than any animal. That's why I'm currently working in a clinic with human patients as test subjects and refused lab work which mostly involves torturing animals in one way or another.
After losing so many of those I deeply loved and cared for to drug addiction, this story is just horrifying… I can only imagine how someone who’s been through the addiction themselves would see this awful display.
After ten years of battling addiction and HEAVY drinking- I know personally how hellish the cycle of addiction/withdrawal/ relapse is.....what they did to these animals is unforgivable. I'm lucky enough to be sober now but it wasn't without having to fight tooth and nail for awhile. These animals didn't choose this or have any idea whats happening to their body, which must have been so scary
Personally, I don't know how some people can interact with animals so regularly and intimately, and not feel utter remorse for trauma inflicted. I guess that's why we hide our meat industry so far away from the public's eyes.
You do relize drugging monekys and slaughtering animals for food are not even comparable one has a puropose the other none at all Also slaughter house are dirty and smelly becuase of all thr animals parts not because of animals bause which i might add abusing animals then taking there meat lowers the quality of meat is bad for business. Ask your self why sewage plants are not next to your house. Is it because it's loud and smelly and covers a big area or because someone's being abused?
@@crazychase98 lol why you getting all triggered. Are you okay? The abuse of animals raised for consumption has been extensively documented. Did you not know? Pigs, chickens, cows, sheep, ect, in astonishing numbers, are all profoundly suffering this very moment? Overcrowded, immobilized, pumped full of antibiotics, with handlers that beat and torment. Babies snatched away, sick and wounded animals left to die in their own filth in massive numbers. Do you know how often the bolt gun fails to execute the animals on the killing floor, before their throat is cut for blood letting? Even farm raised salmon are subject to horrid abuse. People assume sanitation and humane treatment is a given. In their ignorance, they are more than happy to continue buying meat, even when livestock farms destroy land, water supply, and emits massive amounts of greenhouse gasses. As long as consumers don't have to see it, they will maintain apathy and indifference. Anyone with a brain can see the harm to these poor creatures is even more cruel and far reaching than a dozen or so monkeys being stuck with drugs that cause them to self harm and or die. Your atrocious grammer, needless aggression, and lack of knowing basic facts, dismantles anything resembling intellect.
@@HiYuhSynthesis or you could just scroll up and read the comments? For the record, I'm not saying people shouldn't eat meat, but the demand is unsustainable and a detriment to cause for humane treatment of any and all animals. It's important that people educate themselves. Consumers have a choice _and_ influence in this world.
While it proved that addictive drugs are addictive it also gave a good baseline as to how addictive they are and what the side effects of use and withdrawal are. This was in the late 60s too, in the early 20th century people still believed that addiction was caused by 'opium appetite', that Heroin was a non-addictive morphine substitute and a whole lot of other stuff that we would see as utter nonsense now. This study gave good insight into things we didn't really understand all that well in the 60s. People were still looking for a single injection cure for opiate addiction back then. William S Burroughs even thought he was cured after a single dose of an antihistamine around that time. A study on rats showed that the only drugs a rat will self administer until death from overdose are cocaine and nicotine. That kind of changes the dynamic of how 'safe' nicotine is.
We "people" look for a lot of things for curing our issues, question is, whether we have the ethical right to abuse other living beings for random experiments. So even animal trials are part of the process in science, it's not wrong to discuss the method, purpose and usefullness.
A thing to consider also is that in the era of B.F. Skinner, the behaviorial psychologist, animals were considered to be bundles of reflex rather than sentient beings, and while anyone who lived with or observed animals closely knew this was nonsense, it justified studies such as these. Thankfully, things have changed since those days, as not only are animals treated better, but studies of biochemical models have replaced animals entirely for many pharmacological experiments. Codeine is an interesting substance because while it is an opioid, it doesn't cause respiratory depression like other morphine derivatives. As mentioned in the post, it can cause convulsions, but it's very self limiting as it also causes extremr pruritis (itching) in large doses. There are other narcotic analgesics that produce less respiratory depression, but teasing apart the analgesia from being habit forming is proving to be difficult. Obviously substances that produce pleasant effects will tend to be habit forming, and substances that are percieved to reduce depression or relieve fatigue or reverse any of a hundred unpleasant physical or mental states will be potentially addictive....
18:45 No it shows that some monkeys are more prone to interacting with stimulus in a box. Their susceptibility to addiction didn't influence the cause of the first injection, manual or automatic. Am I misunderstanding?
One thing that could have really been beneficial with this study was to test the withdrawal process by using metered doses and reducing the dose over a period of time. I know with caffeine, If I want to get off it, all I have to do is just take less and less over a period of time and I can get off it without getting the headache that happen when you go cold turkey on it. I wonder if the same thing can be done with any other addictive substances out there.
You should show the other side of the story-Rat Park Tl:dr animals that were socially and psychologically healthy only took “small” amounts of drugs. Dependent animals that were returned to healthy social conditions returned to small amounts of usage.
@@StoneInMySandal it didn’t though. The rats that were dependent were studied for the social effects of that dependency. But you can only do so much in /rats/ when your whole experiment gets defunded
@@StoneInMySandal You're jumping through allot of hoops to disprove clinical evidence that's reinforced by basic empathy or by just simply asking someone sincerely.
My little brother told me about these studies, I believe it was these. The way he explained made me feel so hopeless. He said the monkeys were exposed to pure cocaine and given the chance to eat or use more cocaine only having to hit a red button. They’d hit the red button every time, every opportunity they could.
Recovering alcoholic here, shit sucks. I’m trying my best but whenever people hear about my past they look at me like I have lepresy. It’s very alienating at times and can make you feel awful about what you’ve done. I’m determined to get healthy but that doesn’t mean it’s not a struggle.
Yeah people don't care when u try to clean yourself up (most people are like good job you are not slowly killing yourself anymore) it's not about everyone else its about you
18:46 actually, I think this shows that no matter how ‘prone’ to addiction you are, EVERYONE becomes addicted with long term use, even when taken as prescribed.
Wonder why they gave them Nalorphine? It's an Opiate agonist, and a pretty shitty one too, as there are better drugs for this purpose, it causes anxiety and confusion, so no wonder the wee monkeys, weren't too jazzed about it.
This where living FEELING beings like we are! They got tortured to the point where this poor animals bite their fingers off! No being able of pain should experience such horror! Shame on those doctor's! They could just asked some addicts and had gotten better results CAUSE HUMANS CAN TALK!
I agree and it's still going on. The NIH has rooms full of dogs and cat that they experiment on. This is all hidden, I only saw it by accident when a friend got me in when I wasn't authorized.
@@leegalen8383 Oh i am sure that there are many! But i try to not think about all this cruelty in this world that much like the war in Ukraine for ex. going on right know or all the other shames of humanity where i don't really can't change much! It just drags my mood down...
Find it interesting alcohol is one of the worst ones in results. I always thought if all drugs where introduced at the same time we would probably ban alcohol over some of the "harder" drugs. But because of cultural significance we practically worship alcoholism as cool, see almost every fictional "playboy".
Alcoholic drinks have been a source of nutrition and hydration for various cultures for millennia, I agree if it only came around now it'd probably be banned but I think the fact alcohol is so culturally significant despite its statistical danger when measured as a drug (active to LD50 dose ratio, etc) speaks to how difficult it is to fairly and accurately discuss "drugs" as a blanket term
These animal experiments still go on everyday with practically every product (cleaning supplies, makeup etc) we use. I saw a video about the horrible things they do to them & it's awful. Try to buy "not tested on animals" if you are an animal lover.
The real conclusion was that captivity caused so pain and suffering that it encouraged the addictive behavior in order to escape the hardship of living a miserable existence, such as being forced into a cage and being tested on. As STEM from Upgrade said best... "A fake world is a lot less painful than the real one." It is a test more on the addiction to escapism than just addiction to substances. I've seen this in my own family away from a controlled environment like a lab and onto the real world. The alcoholism that runs in both sides of the family are due to the need of escapism, mostly escapism from painful childhood or teenage trauma that was never addressed or brushed off by the family as lies and weakness from the individual. Gabor Mate is an expert at how or where addiction comes from and he pioneer the concept that addiction can come from trauma as early as infancy, which many studies have shown the power of implicit memory (or emotional memory) can be and a better indicator to predicting whether a person is more prone to addiction than previously thought. Gabor Mate really changed the way I thought of addiction and made me more understanding and sympathetic to addicts. I'm still wary of them and their manipulative ways, but I am more understanding why they are the way they are, which allows me to survive the addicts within my own family.
Post surgery, my Morphine pump was set too low. I had to beg them to turn it up because the pain was ridiculous. It was timed, like the monkey. They did bump it up for me. Addiction did not occur. I spent almost 5 years on painkillers.. no addiction. I went in with the mindset that it can be addictive and be careful.
I worked in research at Michigan for a couple years, and to this day they talk about the ethics (or lack thereof) in this study as an example to present day researchers.
This is a form of cruel, evil torture. Animal abuse not only physical, but emotional and psychological as well. May these "researchers" burn in Hell for all Eternity.
Ahh, me. "Hmm, what should i watch when i eat? Oh! Dark side of science! Nice!" I guess most would watch something else :P As for the ethical scale. I'd say 4 or 5. But the sheer pointlessness since similar tests had already been performed on rats make the experiment fairly moot so those values go up by 1 to 5 or 6. The animals did have most (not all) their needs taken care of, and they were in most cases not suffering. Apart from the ones that created severe anxiousness.
@@UnauthorizedRosin Do not that 4-6 is not exactly morally highballing it. It's just that some things are so violently immoral, that these things fade in comparrison. So compared to the 9's and 10's, these are around 5's.
I like how the channel name is also a play on the subjects it discusses. The subjects seem easily explained from our modern point of view, but it's always a convoluted mess of sidetracked stuff merging into a conflict. Basically, 'humans are gonna human'.
I'd be interested if the amount of sleep each group had was also noted. I have a theory that the psychosis experienced in amphetamine and cocain users is due in large part to the sleep deprivation it causes.
@Travis Stamper I don't think the majority find rats disgusting. If you do you need them cleared up around your area and to not be attracting them if possible. Or just get cats. (And be ready to take them to the vet.) If next door's trees are attracting them talk to the neighbour.
When I was in my early 20s I'd take 10mg of Xanax a day for months. I'd just spend everyday inside creating music and things but also pushed the who world away. I also did a lot of bad things that I only remember because people told me. Also don't know how I survived taking that much everyday but also coming off was God awful and I didn't know what was happening to me. Now I know benzo withdrawal is almost deadly at times. I still struggle at times
Hi John! Im a new subscriber and i just wantetd to say that i love yout videos. They are very well done. I will defenetly become a Patreon when i have the money for it!
I hope you find the video interesting! Have any future suggestions let me know!!
I'm currently on this journey called drug addiction. In recovery now but if those 🐒 monkeys could talk. The horror aspects of this addiction are far so much worse. And for those who hate using animals for experimental purposes? If it wasn't for their sacrifice so to speak we wouldn't have the useful information we have now. I never said it was right. I know it isn't fair, but here we are.
Pit of despair?
Still suggesting a video on the RA-2 Reactor accident (Argentina). If you need help with the translation of documents let me know
I still haven't searched for the consequences of the Russian soldiers having their Boy Scout Jamboree on the front lawn of the Chernobyl nuclear reactor. I have heard rumors that the Neutron Capture Game was the favorite. And if the IAEA visit produces anything ghastly, it would be nice to hear a Brief Dark History on it. Thanks!
@@FlyingSavannahs Now this sounds like a subject matter I'd love to have more information on. I wasn't aware of this horrific get together.
If you were trapped in a room barely bigger than yourself, what would you do? Drink water and wait? Or take drugs and feel like you weren't trapped.
Absolutely, this study is utter garbage.
Exactly
drugs
I mean I'm not trapped in a room and I still choose drugs
@@GusStcroix same buddy, what dumb scientists
Hard to not become a drug addict when your life is spent confined to a small cage and connected to a metal harness and arm.
And yet I'm inside all the time, as I have been for over a decade since I stopped going to school (which was hell by itself) and I'm probably one of the few/only people out of all 5? 6? schools that's never tried drugs or drink or anything that actively harms and is probably very expensive for a one-time experience.
I'm just a boring gaming creative person XD
Maybe being able to be creative and having games/films/Internet have been the thinsg helping me to avoid it? Nevermind obviously being educated as we all are one way or another?
I can see being stuck in a box with literally naff all else (even though we're not given a choice in this case regardless of whether I wanted to or not) might well get me to flick a switch. If I wasn't trying to dig meself out or wreck the arm.
@@Roadent1241 the monkey did not have internet access
Your life is in no way comparable to an animal test subject
Also please go outside
With regular, forced injections. At some point humans are quite likely to pull the switch just to get some semblance of control back.
@@Roadent1241 There is a massive difference to self imposed confinement with a large amount of creative or entertainment options, and confinement against your will in a box with absolutely no stimuli aside from a lever that administers substances.
@@bee5440 Well I certainly have never felt human. I've barely been treated like one but that's disability for you.
I do go outside. There's nothing and nobody out there except wildlife and trees and fields. What good does going outside do aside from fresh air?
"Hey, so you're stuck in a nightmare with tubes to your heart. Wanna get fucked up or just sit there?" Gee who could have seen this outcome
yea thats ag ood interpretation, they at least very unconfortable and were given acess to drugs that made them feel less pain, except for the ones that got cocaine and caffeine
Duh! Lol
They were going to get fucked up anyway regardless of choice? XD
I live with a tube going to my heart that keeps me alive via IV nutrition and medications. The decision to 'resort' to this treatment was an awful one. I've been through many surgeries and failed treatments to avoid it. There's so many possible complications and negative effects, my heart breaks for these poor monkeys who would have had no clue why they're being put through such torture. That's without even going into the drug aspect!!
@@unknownentity7964 there are alot of “monkeys” out there… im one of them i fell for you
I've been through opioid withdrawals and alcohol withdrawals(dt). I empathize with those animals. That is horrific torture.
I feel. It’s utter hell, but at least we can conceptualise it, understand why it’s happening. We can talk our way through it.
They don’t have that reasoning, they don’t understand what’s happening to them or why, they’re just in pain.
What a pointless experiment.
I believe in you, that you can stay clean from your efforts.
Hope you're doing ok now! Take care
You need to behave yourself!!
Omg same here. Me too. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.. they are small animals compared to humans it must have been so much more horrific feeling of an experience than in humans.... The epitome of animal abuse...
And I want to add that literally no useful conclusions were drawn from this study. All the information we know about addiction nowadays is derived mostly from human experience, with a few rat experiments here and there, but this study proved absolutely nothing and only indicated what we already knew at that point. It seems the scientists involved got carried away and did it, not because it would advance science, but merely because they could. The experiment was poorly conceived as well, and had a high chance of giving inconclusive results. As well, the studies did not include ANY information about WHY people get addicted; its purpose was to study ALREADY ADDICTED monkeys, and in that case, why not just use humans? It's not like there was a paucity of humans with addiction. The study also was highly inconclusive because, well, if you were trapped in a cage, would YOU just wanna drink water and wait, or would you wanna take drugs that make you feel better and less trapped?
It seems to me that the researchers were making a situation where taking drugs seems to be the only logical choice, making drugs available, then doing surprised pikachu face when the monkeys end up addicted. There was no study about how much addicts will ignore negative consequences, no study about WHY addicts become addicts, no study about environmental factors... just getting monkeys hooked so they could prove the obvious, which is that addictive drugs are addictive. Really a bullshit study, and this makes it more cruel because the animal suffering was completely unnecessary.
Definitely one of the very worst studies I've ever heard of; ethically and scientifically. I mean: Particularly the part, where the drug was auto-ministered anyway. *Humans* may start pulling the lever at that point, because there was no way out anyway. This seems more like a brainstorming, first attempt on paper for a test on how to artificially create depression. It reminds me of the monster experiments, where no matter what some rats did, they would get shocked. As horrible as that was, the helplessness and hopelessness at least served a function.
This? This is something a psychopathic fifth-grader may come up with, when posed with the task of studying addiction. There is basically no control, what was even really tested and if anything was found out it probably wouldn't have been comparable to humans in the first place.
I think one potential misconception that needs to be addressed however, is the idea that every scientific study needs to be interesting and lead to compelling results to be useful or valid. Many studies are in fact rather banal, and in many cases seek to replicate or otherwise support the currently prevailing understanding of the phenomena being studied. Now more than 50 years later, one can well question the ethical aspects, but at the time of the study, there was no way of knowing it would not yield some potential novel data until the experimentation was actually undertaken. This can certainly be difficult to appreciate for those of us now in the future, having the 20/20 vision of hindsight.
@@BuddyLee23 Testing for seemingly banal or unimportant stuff is OK. There is even a price for it. The IG nobel price. However, there is a huge difference between documenting homosexual necrophilia in ducks and intentional cruelty for a very, very, very bad study with little to no benefit to anyone.
I think that animal testing has its place (although I think it's vastly overused and over-funded, when compared to other studies), but the greater harm and suffering you cause, the greater the potential benefit must be and the more you must make sure that there are no other options.
And I don't give a damn about the historical context, when it comes to ethical questions. To put it really, really harshly: There was a historical context to the holocaust, but we can still absolutely judge it as wrong. There were a bunch of disgusting experiments on all sides of the war at the time, too. The fact that everyone was doing it, doesn't make it any less ethically reprehensible.
They were doing a surprised pikachu face because it proved that monkeys deal with addiction in a similar way to humans.
Oh well said.
I think even with the animal cruelty aside, its a fairly rubbish experiment in terms of how it was conducted as all it really showed was that an animal addicted to a substance will continue to take it and not necessarily finding a 'cause' along the way. Considering this was the late 60's it shouldn't have been too hard to find a lot of people engaged in some kind of drug use in the wild, then just do a deeper study on them.
Very true
"Scientists" who conduct studies swell with pride until they remember there's a thing called "the scientific method" and they have to expose their work to others. Even Einstein was susceptible to hubris. After publishing his Theory ending in E=mc^2, it looked like there was a chance he was wrong. He wasn't upset he was wrong (imo, because he was a genuine "truthseeker") but, rather, disappointed the aesthetics of such a beautifully simple equation wasn't adequate. Good video! As usual!! 👍🏼☺️
And at some point in my life (in the 80's, iirc), my state provided $180k grant funds to determine whether cocaine was addictive. I'm not kidding. (NC)
As the saying goes, "Those who don't study history are destined to annoy the hell out of those who do!"
Rat Park was a good experiment
Another study was done with rats wherein some rats were kept in a typical cage and only their basic needs were met (food, water, shelter) and the rats were kept in individual isolation. The other set of rats lived communally in a "rat utopia" that provided many forms of mental and physical stimulation. Both sets of rats had open access to a drug (I can't remember which, but I want to say it was cocaine). The first set of rats became completely addicted and used the drug until they died while the second set tried the drug to discover what it was, but ignored it thereafter.
Rats, like humans, are social animals. Just having their basic physical needs met is not enough for them to thrive. But if their basic physical needs are met and they are stimulated and accepted as part of a community, they thrive and have no need for diversions such as drugs.
EDIT: I should not have used the words "rat utopia," as this makes it seem like I was referring to the infamous Rat Utopia experiment. I am not. I should have said that set of rats had all of their basic needs met not just physically, but socially and emotionally as well.
This is precisely why our "leaders" are working so hard to divide us and keep us locked in our homes. If we do not depend on each other, we will depend on the government, and that dependence keeps them in power.
You missed the part where the "well off rats" ate and cannibalized the others of their elite society till the breeding pairs died off and the whole society collapsed...
Exacty
I remember hearing about this in a psychology class, back in my college years.yes, it was coke. I always thought it was interesting, and stuck with me, and reminded me never to get caught up in hard drugs.
@John Doe well, that’s utopia for cannibal rats, now isn’t it?
Imagine people went to school to get a PhD and then spent time and money to get monkeys addicted to dope. They thought this was a valid and ethical usage of their skills and talents. Sad many such cases
True, reality in 2022
You wouldn't last a single semester
@@briannadickson2884 What about a trimester 🤷♂️
Its even worse now
@@briannadickson2884 no refunds on those loans
As an ex heroin addict I chose dope over everything. Family, friends and freedom. I've been clean since 2016 and now have a wife, son and my own house but the effects still linger. Some nights I wake up soaking wet after dreaming about sticking myself with the needle and my brain no longer produces dopamine so I'm dealing with depression and other shit but it gets better everyday.
If anyone out there is struggling just know it gets better once you decide you want to quit. It took me hitting rock bottom and 2 years behind bars for me to quit. I never looked back though and I'm thankful for the 2nd chance. I know to many people that will never get that opportunity.
Do you know if kratom has any success weaning ppl off of H? Here in east Asia it is used to get ppl off of opiates
I know where you're coming from. Good work and never forget what it's like to be at rock bottom.
@@spencer5028 yea but you gotta ween down. I got really low dose of suboxone and then used kratom with success. Though I relapsed after a few years.
@@ErrorlVlacro good luck man, this stuff is destroying a generation in America and the feds are trying to ban kratom as is the indonesian govt.
Always glad to hear a story of recovery! I've been clean this time about 8 months. Keep it up.
Just from the title, I could tell this was going to be a cruel and pointless experiment. Especially considering it would be incredibly easy to do an observation study with humans who already are addicted by interviewing them and their loved ones and from rehabilitation centers.
Terrible thought process
You can study real people all you want, but science is based on conducting controlled experiments. The lack of control groups in the real world will skew any results to the point of being useless. Personal anecdotes, while useful for inspiration, are not scientific in the slightest.
Interviews are not science
@@EveryoneElseIsWeirdImNormal neither is torturing lab animals to prove something we already knew.
I found it funny
Very odd to make someone addicted you have to "tempt" them with a raisin. Technically that could be peer pressure but maybe the monkey just wanted a raisin, not a hallucinogenic drug. Very grim study and needn't have been done.
I want some mushrooms
None of these were strictly hallucinogenic. The ones that did cause hallucinations were uppers that would prevent sleep, thus inducing hallucinations.
With something like psilocybin and lsd you'd show massive lack of effectiveness over the course of time with redosing
Reminds me of strangers with candy, but the monkey was already in the van.
U ment psychoactive not hallucinogenic but yea
shows how off the experiment was when they had to force many of the monkeys to become addicts
The 60’s and 70’s were truly the time where scientists just did whatever the hecc
They injecc
They disecc
But most importantly
They OBJECC HEARSAY
@@koriuk5032 beautiful
They pretty much did!
let's not forget about the LSD dolpins
You only have see The Tuskegee Syphilis Study 1932 - 1972 to realise it.
In addition to other problems with the experiment's structure, the testing of so many different substances meant that only a handful of animals could be used in any one test. Such a low number of trials all but ensures that outliers have an outsize impact on the results, and makes it easy to completely overlook other less-likely outcomes. It's important that good science be repeatable, and that requires more than just a few test subjects.
So the test only showed the obvious, and didn't even do that with convincing certainty. Not only was the Helsinki Protocol ignored, but the suffering of the test subjects, and many of their deaths, were entirely in vain.
I agree that the study was cruel and limited, but not all of the conclusions were obvious (at least not at the time).
Indeed
Yo you go thru fucking opiate withdrawal than ask your self "do we test this on animals or on humans who will have years of mental truama to move with?" You sound like a Nazi scientist that a animal life is more important than a human soul
@@TheManFromFUNCLE Yes, but that's at most n=5. The margin of error!
As someone who is in recovery from drug addiction this is honestly painful to learn and I really struggled to watch the entire video because of how cruel this experiment really was
People’s view on addiction is all out of whack. My mom overdosed and passed away April 28th 2022, and all I can think about is how happy I am I expressed my unconditional love to her every time I saw her. I let her know I didn’t care what she did, regardless of anything I love her. Don’t shun addicts show them there’s fun and joy elsewhere. Often times we put ourselves in that cage ourselves but it’d be nice if other people were the tiniest bit more courageous to help and open the cage. Love you mom. Sorry we couldn’t get that cage all the way open, but I know you’re not fighting anymore.
I'm so sorry for your loss. As a recovering addict, it truly touched my heart reading this. Thank you for your compassion.
Yea they dont constantly lie to you and steal your things. Its not like that has anything to do with people not wanting to associate with drug addicts....
@@TheHamadannerssorry but that has exactly what to do with what they are saying? Nobody said anything about there being no negative consequences in association with drug addicts. Just that THEY were able to empathize and love unconditionally and that when the worst (but not necessarily unexpected) outcome happened, that made it easier to cope with the loss. So your reply kinda sounds like you're shitting on drug addicts just for the sake of it to punish someone else's ability to empathize in a situation where you wouldn't.
Am sorry for your loss, I was a chronic alcoholic who was seen a lost cause by many, until I met a girl who never drank and had NEVER!! Taken drugs but she stuck by me even though I would sleep next to her with a bottle of vodka I would drink every time I woke up to go the toilet I would have a glass ,then I would have a pint of vodka in the morning just to function she would even hold my glass if I couldn't myself due to the shakes I would ask her why are you with me, her answer was because I've seen the real you and I know your in there somewhere, I would be admitted to hospital regularly due to liver problems and chronic pancreatitis, and was warned so many times that if I carried on the way I was going I'd be dead within a year ,she pleaded with me to stop so I did but I gave up to late ,I have cirrhosis of the liver impaired kidneys and chronic pancreatitis and will need a liver transplant in time, the girl who stood by me is now my wife I was diagnosed with cirrhosis at 33 I am now 45 and 11 years and 8 months sober and was told my chances of a liver transplant are slim to none ,so we take every day as a blessing ,I hope by telling my story it helps another person going through or your dealing with a person who is a addict ,don't give up it can be done yes you will relapse but dust yourself off and try again, and to the people who are dealing with n addict don't give up on them because that person is still in there somewhere, only God knows where I'd be now if my wife gave up on me ,
@@TheHamadanners
I’m totally there with you. People have to earn respect and love.
"both switches would be swapped around at random intervals" So assuming the monkeys could tell the switches apart, they would still never know for sure. The people who designed this test are beyond imagination.
edit They also had indicative raisins taped to the switch?!
^^
I think the raisins were just to get them to mess with the switch and to get addicted
There was a light that went off when the dose was administered.
Addictive drugs are addictive. What an experiment!
I feel like the study would have been more accurate AND more ethical if they had the monkeys all in the same cage with comfortable living conditions because it would more closely simulate their real environment. Any living creature would want to be blitzed out of their mind if they were locked up all alone in a tiny cage for weeks.
There are hundreds of deep experiments involving animals like this. While I do understand WHY it was done, I can’t help but think there must be another way. This just seems so cruel. I’m sure it would seem cruel back then as well
I don't think there's no other way unless you want to volunteer in replacement of those rats
I disagree ethics hold back progress
🙋🏼♂️🙋🏼♀️🙋🏻♂️Hail The Azov Battalion 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦
Volunteer then for those animals
Buprenorphene was invented in 1966 as an alternative to morphine with the potential to treat narcotic addiction. I don't know if this study played any part int that, but it was around the same time period so I would assume so.
You know it’s gonna be a good day when you get a fresh “dark side of science” video
Let’s hope
Soooo was it a good day or not?
Who could blame a poor monkey for seeking oblivion in these circumstances 😭😭😭
The fact that I almost felt jealous of the monkeys says a whole freakin' lot about addiction...
Thought I was the only one😂😂. Pure sources of cocaine and morphine strap me down and count me tf in lmao
Whoops, accidentally fell into the trashcan here.
I can't immediately think of anything pleasurable that doesn't have the capacity for addiction. Life is scary 😨.
me too
YOU AIN'T LYIN'! 😳
I really believe some of these scientists who did these things were well aware of the uselessness and cruelty of such experiments and did it only to satisfy their own cruel and demented enjoyments and urges. This gave them the opportunity, the funding, the immunity and supposed justification (to soothe what little a little bit of a conscience that they had along with excuse and justification to give peers, family, general public, etc. who were better people and knew better).
Yeah but the funding came from a committee of scientists who believe the test was legit. It wasn't just a mad scientist doing this on a whim.
I agree 💯 just pure EVIL 💯 this reminds me of when it came out that Fauchi was funding some down right diabolical experiments on beagles 😥
I often wonder about the motivation of people working in modern day animal laboratory testing facilities, seeing the undercover videos they are literally filled with pure sadism, rather than anything else. Animals being beaten, trampled, thrown and just generally subject to insane amounts of unnecessary violence - as well as tampering with actual studies to achieve the goal of a company paying for the research rather than the actual result. All of this, considering 99,9% of all animal testing nowadays is completely avoidable, albeit often more expensive when done with cell membranes, simulations and models of various kinds, I just cannot fathom how anyone would want a job like that. Unless you are really ill and feed off sadism against completely defenseless individuals.
@@Notaravisen A lot of sadistic people are drawn into the fields of medicine and veterinary. It seems ironic at first, you wonder why would these people aim for a career consisting of taking care of others and of animals? But then you realize, it’s the power dynamic they’re after. As a doctor or nurse, you have some degree of control over others, who typically come to you in a state where they can’t defend themselves. As a vet, you have control over similarly defenseless animals, that have zero concept of abuse.
What about a farmer who has to kill cows and pigs and chickens so you can eat? Think they do it all lovely like? And you just go to the store and pick up the meat and probably eat it worse than these crack addicted monkeys.
When my fiance passed 2 weeks before our wedding I got hooked. This was My choosing. Yes I am clean now. These animals were forced. How horrible. Addiction to any drug is tragic in itself. People... Stay Away from Drugs. It is just Not worth it.
I was being injected with morphine against my will before bed time everyday for a week. That's when I was recovering after a surgery on my broken leg. Didn't have that much pain as it was healing well, but the doctor wouldn't take no for an answer and kept injecting it into my vein everyday. I was tripping balls in my sleep, hallucinating like crazy, where reality combined with what I was dreaming about:) My room door leading to the balcony was at my full disposal and open 24/7 (hot summer days), so by shear luck I haven't plunged down to my death during one of the nights.
Wtf? Better never go back to that hospital
@humpty dumpty nuclear war???
@humpty dumpty Damn that's crazy, but the 95% of moral and good people shouldn't have to suffer a horrible death because the top 5% of the world can't live without a constant stream of bullshit dopamine rushes.
@humpty dumpty well I certainly don't want to be nuked, so unfortunately I don't agree with you. We all know that pain and suffering exists, but the world doesn't consist of pain and suffering only. There is also lots of joy, fulfillment, and good people in the world. So if we destroy the earth, then all of those good things will disappear.
@humpty dumpty I agree that people are terrible but a nuclear war would kill so many more innocent lives then evil ones and would forever destroy so many ecosystems for animals that can't even comprehend what a nuclear bomb is let alone what's it's capable of.
The only people who can wish that are NCR Soldiers, because patrolling the Mojave makes you wish for a nuclear winter.
Any reason why the Codeine group died and the Morphine group lived when Codeine is broken down by the liver into morphine anyway.
Was it just the doses were less restricted or that the slower time for the body to notice codeine meant to more switch spamming?
Love your vids and addiction is an issue I'm working through right now. Shit sucks.
Youll get through it my friend!!
stay strong you will get through this
You can do it. Just don't be worried if you start feeling like you need it again. I've been off for 30 years and still think I want some. Ignore it, it'll pass.
It’s good your on the right path! Thank you for your comment!
I did it and it was the hardest thing I've ever done..I had a pretty bad IV fentanyl and cocaine habit...was living on the streets and had lost everything. Detox was brutal...but it does get better...just be patient with yourself..
REALLY well done, i'm about to start watching all of your "Dark Side of Science" series and this was a fascinating starting point.
Keep up the fantastic work, one of the reasons I've always leaned towards computers / electrical or mechanical engineering was avoiding the "dark" parts of science, and I've never wanted to experiment on animals or have too to make ends meet.
When he says « psychologically addicting » it means those stimulants are giving you bursts of dopamine and if you stop suddenly, you won’t be getting the same amount. It will cause depression for a few days until the brain recovers. I’d still call that addiction in general.
I love watching these videos! It's insane how much you've improved in editing and stylizing your videos, they're always fantastic to watch. Keep it up👌
Man your naration has gotten so much better since I started watching your content. Good work
So if you ever think your idea is bad, remember that once, THREE people got together and decided that giving monkeys a drug button would be a wonderful idea.
When I was a heroin addict I think I would have been perfectly okay with being stuck in a small room with unlimited amounts of drugs. Scary shit.
One problem that I can see in this experiment is that they are locking the monkey in a small confined space with absolutely no other stimulus or social interaction and literally nothing else to do but Medicaid itself.
So of course it's going to choose to medicate itself.
Of course they're just trying to remove variables.
I would be interested to see if a monkey would do the same if it was in a healthy social environment
Chimpanzees, Apes,Monkeys all can be scary enough without adding anything.
Edit* Primates.... above all enjoyed
Plainly Difficults video as I drifted to sleep. 😊
@@annofcleavers5791 chimps aren't monkeys
@@johnspring1135 your right John,will delete my post forthwith
@@johnspring1135 John,are you happy now?
Pit of Despair anyone?
@@hicknopunk I made a colossal blunder of calling a chimpanzee a monkey when its an ape,I am beside myself that I could have been so stupid,John quite rightly pointed out my total ignorance,I really hope that he's OK and I haven't offended him to much.😏
I knew a couple of speed freaks back in the 80's, and I know from them that the withdrawal can be very severe, including seizures and death, it's supposed to be pretty dangerous to go cold turkey off amphetamines, so not too sure if it's correct to say the don't have physical withdrawal symptoms.
Pretty sure thats wrong. Seizures from amphetamines withdrawal? Possible but I doubt it. The cravings are strong. But purely mental.
Its more dangerous for an alcoholic to stop drinking cold turkey than when quitting most typically abused methamphetamine. You can die from quitting alcohol abruptly.
No physical withdraw from amphetamines/cocaine
@@kenw2225 it makes you unable to sleep shaky af and just depressed as all hell, this is my exp with stim withdrawal anyway, it's p hellish lol, it has"only mental effects" BUT the nature of drugs means your brain gets used to the physical effects, and going off of it is fucking hellish for that reason. its just pure depression anxiety and sleeplessness, i tried smoking a mountain of weed for it and it doesn't even touch it, just makes you feel empty exhausted anxious and unable to really feel euphoric
@@CandyBag From what I've witnessed, there absolutely is.
actually this study and others similar were used promote fear of the drugs. Recently have been criticized because substances are not addictive per se, it actually depends a lot on the situation of the animal (including humans or course)
Animals in better conditions, with a better balanced environment that provide social stimulation and opportunities to rest, hide and explore are way less prone to addiction. In other words, if you have a balanced life is not as easy to get addicted, and the war on drugs should focus on improving social conditions, not on persecuting people and filling private prisons for profit.
I know it was a different time and standards of animal ethics were different, but I still really question how these people internally were okay with doing this. The idea of a surgeon being willing to perform these operations on the monkeys for the sole purpose of using it to forcibly administer an animal drugs is... horrifying. How can you intentionally do that to a living thing?
I'm gonna keep it a buck, they are monkeys and they are worthless to the world. In fact, the whole reason they (the ones used in the experiment) are even alive is because of the university's colony. They gave and took away their lives.
This is actually kind of tame if you look at all the literally hellish experiments researchers have done on all kinds of animals.
At least some of these monkeys got the benefits of pain relievers whilw they suffered.
Absolutely LOVING your Dark Side of Science videos!! Thank you so much for your content :)
@@GeeCee-pv7ik girl what
Out of all the videos you’ve done about heavy subjects, this was the hardest for me. Those poor animals. Still your discussion was very well presented and straightforward. We need to remember and never repeat.
Yeah...I used to get pretty excited too when it was time to get/do a shot of drugs. While I'm glad they were trying to do something for addiction, I hate hearing about the animals they use. I wonder if there's a better way to have gone about this...I believe people come first, but I also don't believe in harming animals for any reason. Then again, if it can save human lives...idk, Such a fine line... oh and BTW, I've been clean 3yrs now.
You are here to.
If it can save human lives, it kinda has to be done… that’s just how we are.
I watched a few friends (and ex) become so addicted to meth it changed their personalities and pushed all of them into criminal behavior. I expected at least one to drop it because of the legal ramifications, but none did. They're all in jail now. Such a difference from when I was growing up, weed and cheap wine were the thing.
@Pᴀᴡɴ S𝜏ᴀʀ𝕤 ✯🇫ᴀɴ well that's subjective. Meth isn't isn't my doc. Heroin and cocaine are better imo
@Pᴀᴡɴ S𝜏ᴀʀ𝕤 ✯🇫ᴀɴ Proof
@Pᴀᴡɴ S𝜏ᴀʀ𝕤 ✯🇫ᴀɴ Staying awake for 2 days from 1 hit sounds kinda fucked.
@Pᴀᴡɴ S𝜏ᴀʀ𝕤 ✯🇫ᴀɴ 3rd hand lol
Awesome video. I've been researching this for a paper at school and it is incredibly dark. Thanks for explaining it so well!
I think the little box in the right hand corner at 17:43 is something that would come up before ads on British tv to signify the switch in content. Very cool detail!
Considering the 60's in America, it seems status-quo that monkeys were turned into riddled drug addicts. I'd like to believe that there were great strides made because of this work, but I don't see it in my city. A more useful study could be seeing what blocks addiction in the candidates who were and were not predisposed to addiction. Creating and studying an inverse chemical relationship to addiction.
Always love your work Plainly. Thought provoking and thorough. Thanks for another stellar video!
Interesting that morphine seemed to have the least negative effects and the drug use plateaued. Whereas codeine, a drug which is supposed to be a safer alternative to morphine, resulted in all the subjects dying from overdose
I'd agree with a 4 if the experiment actually had a real purpose, but all it did was show the obvious that could be observed from addict humans. In my opinion it's more ethical to treat them poorly if you are actually making strides in our knowledge which would help people. It seems like they didn't get much here, so it was just pointless cruelty.
Thanks!
really makes the entire drug war pointless and depressingly terrible given it hadn't really taken off yet in 1969
I think most of us saw the TED TALK about "rat park" which proved connections with people and given more things to encourage growth instead of in a cage with nothing but drugs.
I'm a recovering addict and if I was put in that EXACT same situation as the monkeys in this experiment....that switch for opioids and nicotine would've been broke off!
I'm 6 years clean from opiates, i spent 15 years as an addict...this test was absolutely bonkers. Good video either way
I'm proud of you
@@Yellowstable212 hey thanks, I truly appreciate you 🙏
To ability these researchers have to detach themselves from the cruelty and suffering they cause in the name of science is astonishing and leads me to believe that they are the ones who should be studied to find out what turned them into monsters.
You probably feel sorry for all the numbers you reduced to Zero in math class.
@@KB4QAA Yeah, i'm still having counseling.
To be fair some things have to be done to animals. Would you rather them use humans?
Yeah, that's why I hate all humans who aren't animal lovers. The funny thing is, I became a scientist myself. Apart from science being interesting, my main goal is to find an alternative to animal testing in general. I have an idea, but it'll take a few years.
@@jordanwiser4192
To be fair, I expect scientists with PhDs to be smart enough to come up with an alternative. But to be completely honest with you, yes. I'd rather experiment on humans than any animal. That's why I'm currently working in a clinic with human patients as test subjects and refused lab work which mostly involves torturing animals in one way or another.
After losing so many of those I deeply loved and cared for to drug addiction, this story is just horrifying… I can only imagine how someone who’s been through the addiction themselves would see this awful display.
Love your resource reusement at 5:52 the gif flipped upside down.
The 1960s were a wild time to be alive, but even wilder if you're monke
The moral of the story is, I guess, that Monkeys like speed.
Indeed they do
My team and I studied psychoactive drugs in university, we just didn't write any papers about it.
Nice one
Most university students do the same 😂
After ten years of battling addiction and HEAVY drinking- I know personally how hellish the cycle of addiction/withdrawal/ relapse is.....what they did to these animals is unforgivable.
I'm lucky enough to be sober now but it wasn't without having to fight tooth and nail for awhile. These animals didn't choose this or have any idea whats happening to their body, which must have been so scary
I found this video because a video on my channel is being recommended by this one 🤣 glad i did, great video & channel!
Personally, I don't know how some people can interact with animals so regularly and intimately, and not feel utter remorse for trauma inflicted. I guess that's why we hide our meat industry so far away from the public's eyes.
You do relize drugging monekys and slaughtering animals for food are not even comparable one has a puropose the other none at all Also slaughter house are dirty and smelly becuase of all thr animals parts not because of animals bause which i might add abusing animals then taking there meat lowers the quality of meat is bad for business. Ask your self why sewage plants are not next to your house. Is it because it's loud and smelly and covers a big area or because someone's being abused?
@@crazychase98 lol why you getting all triggered. Are you okay?
The abuse of animals raised for consumption has been extensively documented. Did you not know? Pigs, chickens, cows, sheep, ect, in astonishing numbers, are all profoundly suffering this very moment? Overcrowded, immobilized, pumped full of antibiotics, with handlers that beat and torment. Babies snatched away, sick and wounded animals left to die in their own filth in massive numbers. Do you know how often the bolt gun fails to execute the animals on the killing floor, before their throat is cut for blood letting? Even farm raised salmon are subject to horrid abuse.
People assume sanitation and humane treatment is a given. In their ignorance, they are more than happy to continue buying meat, even when livestock farms destroy land, water supply, and emits massive amounts of greenhouse gasses. As long as consumers don't have to see it, they will maintain apathy and indifference. Anyone with a brain can see the harm to these poor creatures is even more cruel and far reaching than a dozen or so monkeys being stuck with drugs that cause them to self harm and or die.
Your atrocious grammer, needless aggression, and lack of knowing basic facts, dismantles anything resembling intellect.
@@crazychase98 you clearly know nothing about the meat industry
@@garfieldlover699 then correct them so we can learn from you, please, oh mighty knowledgeable one
@@HiYuhSynthesis or you could just scroll up and read the comments?
For the record, I'm not saying people shouldn't eat meat, but the demand is unsustainable and a detriment to cause for humane treatment of any and all animals. It's important that people educate themselves. Consumers have a choice _and_ influence in this world.
While it proved that addictive drugs are addictive it also gave a good baseline as to how addictive they are and what the side effects of use and withdrawal are.
This was in the late 60s too, in the early 20th century people still believed that addiction was caused by 'opium appetite', that Heroin was a non-addictive morphine substitute and a whole lot of other stuff that we would see as utter nonsense now.
This study gave good insight into things we didn't really understand all that well in the 60s. People were still looking for a single injection cure for opiate addiction back then. William S Burroughs even thought he was cured after a single dose of an antihistamine around that time.
A study on rats showed that the only drugs a rat will self administer until death from overdose are cocaine and nicotine. That kind of changes the dynamic of how 'safe' nicotine is.
We "people" look for a lot of things for curing our issues, question is, whether we have the ethical right to abuse other living beings for random experiments. So even animal trials are part of the process in science, it's not wrong to discuss the method, purpose and usefullness.
A thing to consider also is that in the era of B.F. Skinner, the behaviorial psychologist, animals were considered to be bundles of reflex rather than sentient beings, and while anyone who lived with or observed animals closely knew this was nonsense, it justified studies such as these. Thankfully, things have changed since those days, as not only are animals treated better, but studies of biochemical models have replaced animals entirely for many pharmacological experiments.
Codeine is an interesting substance because while it is an opioid, it doesn't cause respiratory depression like other morphine derivatives. As mentioned in the post, it can cause convulsions, but it's very self limiting as it also causes extremr pruritis (itching) in large doses.
There are other narcotic analgesics that produce less respiratory depression, but teasing apart the analgesia from being habit forming is proving to be difficult. Obviously substances that produce pleasant effects will tend to be habit forming, and substances that are percieved to reduce depression or relieve fatigue or reverse any of a hundred unpleasant physical or mental states will be potentially addictive....
Thank you for pointing this out
Drugs are not inherently addictive. That is a myth
@@DonMarzzoni Take 50mg of diazepam a day for 2 months then try not taking any for 2 days. Then get back to me on the "drugs aren't addictive" angle.
18:45 No it shows that some monkeys are more prone to interacting with stimulus in a box. Their susceptibility to addiction didn't influence the cause of the first injection, manual or automatic. Am I misunderstanding?
I’d be interested to know if the monkeys had any other form of stimulation or social interaction in those studies too.
Must not be easy covering such dark things mad respect bringing this to light bro kia ora much love from NZ 🇳🇿
finding your channel on an early Sunday morning, perfection
I feel this reflects society today, but you can 100s more types of addictions. We’re just given a bigger box.
Another brilliant episode, although I did find it hard to remain serious when confronted with the angry monkey cartoon 😂 Keep up the good work.
One thing that could have really been beneficial with this study was to test the withdrawal process by using metered doses and reducing the dose over a period of time. I know with caffeine, If I want to get off it, all I have to do is just take less and less over a period of time and I can get off it without getting the headache that happen when you go cold turkey on it. I wonder if the same thing can be done with any other addictive substances out there.
4:23 - Withdrawl and Euthoria? Odd spelling of “withdrawal” and “euphoria”. Spell check is your friend; use it.
Great content as usual thanks for the upload
Thank you
You should show the other side of the story-Rat Park
Tl:dr animals that were socially and psychologically healthy only took “small” amounts of drugs. Dependent animals that were returned to healthy social conditions returned to small amounts of usage.
Rat Park failed to address the social ramifications of dependency.
@@StoneInMySandal it didn’t though. The rats that were dependent were studied for the social effects of that dependency. But you can only do so much in /rats/ when your whole experiment gets defunded
@@scriptorpaulina There’s no correlation between rat and human social behaviors.
@@StoneInMySandal Way to move goalposts.
@@StoneInMySandal You're jumping through allot of hoops to disprove clinical evidence that's reinforced by basic empathy or by just simply asking someone sincerely.
My little brother told me about these studies, I believe it was these. The way he explained made me feel so hopeless. He said the monkeys were exposed to pure cocaine and given the chance to eat or use more cocaine only having to hit a red button. They’d hit the red button every time, every opportunity they could.
Recovering alcoholic here, shit sucks. I’m trying my best but whenever people hear about my past they look at me like I have lepresy. It’s very alienating at times and can make you feel awful about what you’ve done. I’m determined to get healthy but that doesn’t mean it’s not a struggle.
Yeah people don't care when u try to clean yourself up (most people are like good job you are not slowly killing yourself anymore) it's not about everyone else its about you
I love how not one, not two, but _three_ people decided "Hm yes, time to drug some moneys for no reason".
18:46 actually, I think this shows that no matter how ‘prone’ to addiction you are, EVERYONE becomes addicted with long term use, even when taken as prescribed.
Wonder why they gave them Nalorphine? It's an Opiate agonist, and a pretty shitty one too, as there are better drugs for this purpose, it causes anxiety and confusion, so no wonder the wee monkeys, weren't too jazzed about it.
This where living FEELING beings like we are! They got tortured to the point where this poor animals bite their fingers off! No being able of pain should experience such horror! Shame on those doctor's!
They could just asked some addicts and had gotten better results CAUSE HUMANS CAN TALK!
Honestly yeah I agree
I agree and it's still going on. The NIH has rooms full of dogs and cat that they experiment on. This is all hidden, I only saw it by accident when a friend got me in when I wasn't authorized.
@@leegalen8383 Oh i am sure that there are many! But i try to not think about all this cruelty in this world that much like the war in Ukraine for ex. going on right know or all the other shames of humanity where i don't really can't change much! It just drags my mood down...
Find it interesting alcohol is one of the worst ones in results. I always thought if all drugs where introduced at the same time we would probably ban alcohol over some of the "harder" drugs. But because of cultural significance we practically worship alcoholism as cool, see almost every fictional "playboy".
Taxable drugs are fine.
Alcoholic drinks have been a source of nutrition and hydration for various cultures for millennia, I agree if it only came around now it'd probably be banned but I think the fact alcohol is so culturally significant despite its statistical danger when measured as a drug (active to LD50 dose ratio, etc) speaks to how difficult it is to fairly and accurately discuss "drugs" as a blanket term
It has nothing to do with time. Alcohol is an addictive drink, not a drug.
@@rizkiramadhan9266 it is a drug look it up
@@rizkiramadhan9266 it's addictive because it's a drug
My favorite account back with another masterpiece
Dude bro your animations are freaking fabulous pluses I really like how u explain things . It's intriguing
These animal experiments still go on everyday with practically every product (cleaning supplies, makeup etc) we use. I saw a video about the horrible things they do to them & it's awful. Try to buy "not tested on animals" if you are an animal lover.
The real conclusion was that captivity caused so pain and suffering that it encouraged the addictive behavior in order to escape the hardship of living a miserable existence, such as being forced into a cage and being tested on. As STEM from Upgrade said best... "A fake world is a lot less painful than the real one." It is a test more on the addiction to escapism than just addiction to substances. I've seen this in my own family away from a controlled environment like a lab and onto the real world. The alcoholism that runs in both sides of the family are due to the need of escapism, mostly escapism from painful childhood or teenage trauma that was never addressed or brushed off by the family as lies and weakness from the individual. Gabor Mate is an expert at how or where addiction comes from and he pioneer the concept that addiction can come from trauma as early as infancy, which many studies have shown the power of implicit memory (or emotional memory) can be and a better indicator to predicting whether a person is more prone to addiction than previously thought. Gabor Mate really changed the way I thought of addiction and made me more understanding and sympathetic to addicts. I'm still wary of them and their manipulative ways, but I am more understanding why they are the way they are, which allows me to survive the addicts within my own family.
Post surgery, my Morphine pump was set too low. I had to beg them to turn it up because the pain was ridiculous.
It was timed, like the monkey. They did bump it up for me.
Addiction did not occur. I spent almost 5 years on painkillers.. no addiction.
I went in with the mindset that it can be addictive and be careful.
Really been watching your videos , I'm loven how your videos go directly along to my interests ;D . Keep these comming friend!
I worked in research at Michigan for a couple years, and to this day they talk about the ethics (or lack thereof) in this study as an example to present day researchers.
This is a form of cruel, evil torture. Animal abuse not only physical, but emotional and psychological as well. May these "researchers" burn in Hell for all Eternity.
Ahh, me.
"Hmm, what should i watch when i eat? Oh! Dark side of science! Nice!"
I guess most would watch something else :P
As for the ethical scale. I'd say 4 or 5. But the sheer pointlessness since similar tests had already been performed on rats make the experiment fairly moot so those values go up by 1 to 5 or 6.
The animals did have most (not all) their needs taken care of, and they were in most cases not suffering.
Apart from the ones that created severe anxiousness.
@@UnauthorizedRosin Do not that 4-6 is not exactly morally highballing it.
It's just that some things are so violently immoral, that these things fade in comparrison.
So compared to the 9's and 10's, these are around 5's.
but did the monkeys even have anything else to do with their time/lives outside the drug levers??
I'm curious about those other experiments you mentioned there. The "Pit of Despair" and "Monkey Mother", was it? Are there videos on them?
I like how the channel name is also a play on the subjects it discusses. The subjects seem easily explained from our modern point of view, but it's always a convoluted mess of sidetracked stuff merging into a conflict.
Basically, 'humans are gonna human'.
I'd be interested if the amount of sleep each group had was also noted. I have a theory that the psychosis experienced in amphetamine and cocain users is due in large part to the sleep deprivation it causes.
I'm feeling anxiety just listening to this, can't imagine the anxiety the poor monkeys went through
And we wonder why monkey throw poop at us.
Prophetic words
They've heard about this study and they want some good drugs, too.
Look I mean I’m kind of a degenerate but the idea of pumping that drug cocktail directly into your heart is absolutely wild
Could you tell me where you got that photo of the monkey at 1:40?
I think Plainly_D is addicted to sun.
Interesting thought, why was the rat study not 'controversial' but the monkey study was?
We are monkey not rat
Monkee
@@jacobnelson2480 no, we just see ourselves in the monkeys more than in the rats, they are more similar to us so we emphatize more.
@@jacobnelson2480 Excuse you, rats are adorable. Wild ones are dangerous, yes, but they look the same. Maybe just a smidge dirtier.
@Travis Stamper I don't think the majority find rats disgusting. If you do you need them cleared up around your area and to not be attracting them if possible. Or just get cats. (And be ready to take them to the vet.)
If next door's trees are attracting them talk to the neighbour.
When I was in my early 20s I'd take 10mg of Xanax a day for months. I'd just spend everyday inside creating music and things but also pushed the who world away. I also did a lot of bad things that I only remember because people told me. Also don't know how I survived taking that much everyday but also coming off was God awful and I didn't know what was happening to me. Now I know benzo withdrawal is almost deadly at times. I still struggle at times
The fact alcohol was the second worse really makes you think...
What is the name of the song in 9:23
Hi John! Im a new subscriber and i just wantetd to say that i love yout videos. They are very well done. I will defenetly become a Patreon when i have the money for it!