LG V60 vs V50: Does the V60 NEED a Telephoto Camera?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 มี.ค. 2020
- I hosted a showdown between the V50 and the V60. Showed a couple photo samples between the two phones, and the results are in! Here's the breakdown on which phone was which! Does the V60 REALLY need a separate zoom sensor?
V60 vs V50: Worth a one-year upgrade? • LG V60 vs V50: Worth a...
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'It got the color wrong matt'. - that made me laugh so much poor Matt 😂
Matt is such a good dude. Couldn't help making a LITTLE fun of my buddy there.
Welp there you have it folks. LG made the right compromise on the telephoto camera. I had also guessed that the V50 was the phone with the better detail information in the first scenario. Pleasantly surprised and enjoying my V60 currently. Going to shoot a couple photos before the stay at home order goes into effect.
Keep your distance from other folks, but get some fresh air while you can. Stay safe out there.
@@SomeGadgetGuy oh no doubt. There's no one with in 20ft of me since everything is almost a ghost town anyway. You stay safe too.
Thanks man. Gotta keep looking out for each other. 🙂👍
Things that were mentioned in this video should be mentioned in all videos when talking about how the LG V60 doesn't have a telephoto lens/camera. Great job like always & thank you for the brake down.👍👏
V40 : Feeling Old with 69 others 💔🥺
Identical cams like v50
No need to spend more money to replace the fine device the V40 is unless you have use for that 2nd screen. Best to hold on to that money given the uncertainty of the economy at this point in time.
Meanwhile I got mine rooted so I could manually install the V50's camera app
It's fuuuun
-but getting it rooted in the first place isn't fun :^)-
@@Raul1528 my v40 is unrooted and i installed pie version of v50 cam
@@harysviewty nice!
Reason I did mine like that is that it's more "built in" feeling, not sure if it does the same thing without root though
I had to use root since I had to fix some things that I couldn't do if it didn't have root
Thank you for another in depth video! I got the v50 last week and I'm loving it. I really appreciate your deep dive looks into some awesome products!
Lol. I thought the same as Matt, thinking it was a silver mic! 😂
That context is importantant LOL 😁
Loved the video. I traded my s22 for a v60 with the dual screen case and got cash with the trade, and even though I'm not a camera guy, the v60 isn't doing some odd things that the s22 does with the photos like unnecessarily darkening shadow areas to the point it almost felt like there was ink on the screen sometimes. S22 also doesn't take the photo as fast for a 2022 device, and oddly lags behind the v60 in performance in general. And why for the love of cinnamon rolls is there a lack of sd card support on modern smartphones?
Juan, as always, clever and informative. Thanks shout out to Mat! gotta love a rebel!
Having used both, and as a professional photographer i definitely prefer the v50. (The real v50 one not the american v45.)
Both are great phones, but the telephoto lense is very handy.
But lets be serious if you want prints or have any real interest in at the very least basic amateur photography you buy a proper camera. Not a phone.
You cant truly compare automatic mode vs auto mode either. They are different phones ffs.
Put both on manual, set your white balance with a grey card, set your iso and f stop. Then shoot the same image from a fixed tripod each. Then compare.
I just wanna say thx so much for all the content you put out. It's really cool that you do so many different formats, from videos to podcasts to articles, etc. You're helping me learn a lot. You're the first Patreon content creator that I've become a patron of. I also snagged your smartphone photography book on Kindle. I geek out on technology, so it means a great deal to me to find someone knowledgeable & unbiased to teach me things in fun, interesting ways. 😎
Glad youre enjoying the content! 😊👍
I highly enjoy your videos, man! LG V40 owner of EXACTLY 1 year!
Great video Gadget guy!!!
Hi, I am planning an upgrade from a V30+, I'm struggling between V50S and V60. Please help me decide by providing your input of which is better! the V50S 256gb of storage definitely has my attention.
What is your opinion on Oppo Find X2 series?
Great video Juan !
Yes, you sent the link, but I didn't get the notification. Also any review of a Xiaomi? And also, I have only seen desktop mode (DeX for Samsung), but in the developer options there is also a setting called Force Desktop Mode on Secondary Screen, and I usually plug my phone via a hub into my monitor, so why don't I see changes?
So the phone is bogo at tmobile. Do you think it's a good time to buy or still wait?
How do portrait images look without the dedicated telephoto?
I was right selecting A for the mic but can't remember if i pick for the tree shot
You did right!
Any international link to buy the v60 online?? (International version)
So coming back to this video after taking a WHOLE bunch of pictures on my v60 and note 10 for a video I'm doing I've basically come back with this info:
1: the note does quite a bit over oversharpening to compensate for lack of detail(which is funny because people used to slag LG for the same thing lol)
2: the note while it does oversharpen, in lower light situations it'll just show colors wrong(ie a shot I took between the two was a water tower and the text on it came up black on the note, but blue on the v60 which is the actual color of the text.) And while it is less grainy than the v60(which isn't much) it still will lack some minor detail.
3: When I try to use the telephoto for macro shots(and even the main sensor) the background blur is just inconsistent, sometimes it'll trigger, but I'll have to tap like 3 or 4 times to have it happen, and ok the v60 sometimes that'll happen, but at least it allows you to still manual focus in auto photo mode. Lol
4: While the v60 does have more punchy colors even compared to my g8 the note 10 still takes the cake as the Michael Bay camera lol which isn't really my taste and it still over exposes. While the v60 does it at times it seems to do it without compromising the main subject.
PS doing camera comparisons are fun lol
Thank you for sharing 🙏
Great stuff.
As much as I love the desktop mode on my g8 (it's really, truly useful), it's not as full featured as, say, dex. Is there something third party software wise that you use to augment that or do you just use it stock
I've just been sticking with stock. LG's solution is a step above regular android, but it could use more work. I hope launcher developers will start offering some solutions too. I would LOVE to see a version of Nova or Microsoft launcher for desktop mode.
@@SomeGadgetGuy between the v35/v50 what would be your pick
But QuadDAC on desktop mode is unbeatable
Great video. I agree on yours analysis; great performance with one camera less.
BTW do you speak Spanish? Saludos desde Puerto Rico.
I have a whiny New Mexican "Spanglish" accent, so I try NEVER to abuse anyone's ear with my terrible dialect. 😉 hola de nuevo méxico
Gabrielle Chaparro Boricua!!!
Love your videos
Great video, as usual. Keep doing what you're doing: excellent non-biased reviews/news. Greetings.
Bro need your help! How do we export cinelog video from Lg G8 to Instagram without colour degradation? any work around?
Well you dont. LOG footage needs to be edited and graded before sending out.
@@SomeGadgetGuy Oh god is there an application for it in the smartphone or strictly only computer?
what is better for vlogs the v60 or v50
Hi Juan
Can i ask you to try my theme for your LG V60 ThinQ?
If its Okay
Nice review Mr. Bagnell
Could you also do some comparisons between the G8X and the V60? Does the bigger battery, more RAM, SD865 make any noticeable differences?
It makes a huge Difference , and the Upgrade in the Camera photos and Videos Quality and feature in Both Rear Camera and Selfie and also in Audio ,a Huge Upgrade in V60
Can you post a comparison low light video between the V40 and the V60??
Does the low light in video beat the V40???
Love your content
😊👍
Juan, how does the telephoto lens compare to digital though, for real world use (zooming in on a live event, moving kids or lowlight) vs still photography? I think to cover my bases, I'd prefer telephoto. What do you think?
Those examples are real world. It all depends on light. Photography is light.
Can't member if you did a vid on this or not but would you day Google was wrong for adding only a Telephoto lens on the Pixel 4's?
Not "wrong" but certainly not what i would have preferred.
@@SomeGadgetGuy agreed
I'm intrigued when you said that telephoto camera switch to main camera. I tried to cover my finger on the telephoto camera of my dad's Samsung Galaxy Note10 Lite, but it didn't went dark. Instead, it was the main camera that went dark by the finger.
i feel sorry for matt 😂.. anyway great video as always juan :)..
would you consider the v50s over the v50? or no? hehe
But if i choose the telephoto camera from my V50 and then zoom in into 10x, my camera still shows me that the telephoto sensor is selected... How do you know that the telephoto sensor is not used by the V50, but the normal camera?
Hi new V50 user here could you tell me where is the telephoto selection in the V50??
This goes to one of my most shocking videos ever watched!!!
Shock 1: the camera results
Shock 2: Juan's laughter
How about zoom video? LG V50 when it's using telephoto vs LG V60 using digital zoom.
Can you please do a v60 vs a g8x review.
In my country the v50 isn't available, the G8X is available, still waiting on the v60.
Not sure if I should wait for the v60
Great Video
I really wanted the V60 but I found out there's no unlocked version. Do you know if 5G has anything to do with it (like the V50)?
Yes. Let's wait for g9 4g
@@harysviewty I have the V40 so I think I'll just wait for the next V-series.
Wow. Amazing video. I learned alot here! I have the v40. And I don't like that it tells me when I can use the zoom lens and not. I know in low light that I will get more noise for example. So yeah. I enjoy the direction lg went for in the v60. I wonder though. Could the zoomed pictures become even better if the main sensor would have variable aperture? Like being able to switch for 2.4 in daylight shots for better depth of field?
Thats an interesting idea. Stopping down would probably help clarity across the board. I certainly wouldnt mind it for macro shots.
Nice, older used models might go down in price too. Which V series is the best bang for the buck today?
Does the V60 need a front wide lens?
What camera you used to recording this video. Thanks
I live stream on a Panasonic m4/3rds.
@@SomeGadgetGuy it looks super good.
Thanks 😊
The V60 is a very compelling proposition. The dual display can come in handy, the magnetic charging connect can save on connector wear (although Qi charging support is fine, too), huge battery is great to have, quad DAC (of course), precision stylus support, plenty of processing power and RAM, very good camera, expandable flash storage (naturally), and 5G connectivity rounds it all out. Also, I like big phones, and I cannot lie...
Hi where's the telephoto camera selection in my V50?new V50 user here
Very educational video. Thank you! This really makes me wonder why Google put a telephoto lens on the Pixel 4 instead of an ultrawide.
Time? Budget? Camera "feel? I talked about that in my Pixel 4 coverage. I personally would have preferred an Ultrawide...
The telephoto camera is nice to have for portrait shots as it naturally crops in to that portrait zoom length but I guess the software can just simply crop in, that said though I do worry about barrel distortion on wider lenses like the regular lenses at 77° vs ~40° on the zoom which solo make you more proportionate I think
What is the ISO SCALE???
The V40 goes from 50 to 3200 what is range on the V60??
I honestly hate when phone camera does that. Like give me the option to choose to crop or force the telephoto. But this has to be said, I think my sucky Nokia would actually switch to the telephoto in your gadget lab, lol.
Install gcam and you can always force the telephoto camera to be used, but the quality is trash in bad lighting, also the dinamic range is not great.
@@catalin9174 g cam gives a very artificial sharpening, especially at night photos look strange
@@TH-camChillZone i know, default it is so, still in advanced settings you can set how the post processing works, even for highlights and shadows.
Just use manual mode. If you dont know how to use it, dont complain when the computer takes over. Its programmed to deliver a pre programmed set of results.
I found with Huawei phones that in indoor light they use the tele lens. But there's a catch. When it gets to street light at night when you get to 3x, 5x up to about 10 it uses the main sensor but when the crop gets bigger (15x, 20x, 30x and etc.) it uses the telephoto because it has less grain and a less deep crop factor. And if you want the tele lens to work all the time just download Manual Camera Lite and at the top with the camera flip icon you can switch between the 3 or 4 back lenses and the front one and once you select with trial and error the telephoto lens you can shoot with it. Only downside with the app is you can't switch lenses with buttons and it's a hastle to cycle with the lenses
I was a little unsure seeing the zoom gone but after the mic photo I am on your side and fine with it gone for the cheaper price
Now I just need to figure out how it's supposed to fit in my pocket once I add a case...
Very carefully...
lg needs a dedicated telephoto zoom lens asap .......now to compete with samsung s20 ultra and huawei with 5x and upcoming 10x zoom you need a good telephoto lens that is the major selling point for s20 ultra apart from 5g and 120 hertz screen refresh rate.....next iteration of the v series should include a dedicated telephoto lens as well....
Of course they need. But we have to wait some time I believe till we get one.
I just got through watching this video, and I'm telling you Juan you have taught me so much about smartphone. Which I do value very much when it comes to Tech knowledge. photography, thank you.
I am bringing in the LG V60 and looking forward to taking lots of pictures & shooting lots of video, and utilizing the big screen for watching movies and videos.
Here's my question to you...
I'm not a gamer but I watch a lot of videos and movies, would that be with that being said, is it worth picking up the second screen for $100 in your opinion.
Thank you my friend ✌️
It's a little trickier to recommend outright. I LOVE it because I have a built in option to prop up a screen at the EXACT angle I want anywhere I want. It's my absolute favorite way to watch a movie while I cook in the kitchen. That said, $100 is a lot to spend on convenience when most people would be fine with a $9 phone stand. If you don't think you'll use the other features of the dual dislpay...
@@SomeGadgetGuy well said, thank you very much for taking the time ✌️🙏
@@SomeGadgetGuy one more question and I'll leave you alone 😬
Do you utilize a second screen for multi-tasking purposes while taking pictures and shooting video?
Ok I'm done have a great day my friend ✌️
LOL I don't use it a ton for the camera options, but I like it as a handle to hold the phone LOL. The rest of the multi-tasking stuff is super handy. Video on one screen and productivity app on another. There are a lot of uses you can FIND for it.
@@SomeGadgetGuy thanks again Jaun, appreciate your time.
After work today, I stopped by T-Mobile and picked up the whole package👍I will review it on my channel, and at the same time just enjoy the experience 👊✌️
Can you review Anyware Phonepad? It actually looks pretty good...
Just came from the other video. My suspicion was correct that it depends on the scene. In good lighting conditions where the telephoto lens is being used it does bring out more detail but if a company dedicates enough time and resources to the main sensor rather than trying to make a second camera that will not get used if light isn't perfect (which irl it usually isn't perfrect) they can achieve comperable or even better results. With more space for example you can make a larger sensor. This is why the Nokia lumia 1020 did so well many years ago. I guess the Galaxy s4 zoom as well (but the latter had optical zoom I think)
Jep, the x2 is pretty useless apart from properly having depth with a person (50 ish mm looks better on a person then a wide lens, and that is it...)
True true, but all the other exposure compromises, and the fact you often aren't REALLY using that 50mm, I just prefer the look of the main wider sensor.
@@SomeGadgetGuy agreeing with that;)
Just curious. I hear a lot of people say the main sensor on all camera should be technically called a wide lens, and the wider lens ultra wide. What mm size would a non-wide lens be exactly?
Anyone else having GPS issues? I have my location turned off and occasionally it'll pop up twice a day for a few seconds. I don't feel safe. Feel like I'm being tracked. Anyone else
Btw the v50 and the g8x which has better camera
Do these phone can shoot video 24 fps
Yup.
It's so odd, I got the indoor shot wrong, I thought that phone A was the V50 with it's telephoto just because that image looked so much clearer, yeah it was grainy but the detail in the microphone was vastly better. The outdoor shot it is clearer when you look at them side by side, but I totally agree scrolling through Instagram or Facebook I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I'm feeling good about my V60 order, it supposed to arrive by Wednesday and I'm looking forward to it.
Does the V50 auto switch even in manual mode?
No manual control over the Telephoto.
@@SomeGadgetGuy gasp! Didn't know.
@@SomeGadgetGuy is there 64mp option in manual?
I've always wondered why my telephoto shots look different at noon compared to any other time of day. Thanks for clearing that up. One other thing, that I've heard people mention that is wrong is when they say oh my phone has more megapixels than your camera. I currentlu have an old Nikon D5100, I'm saving up for a Pentax k-1 II or the 645z. Back on topic, what they fail to realize is that the sensor on their phone is tiny compared to mine. Which allows a lot more light to hit the sensor and less noise.
Exactly! The physics of that sensor size matters.
it's interesting
actually s20+ has two 1x cameras! one 12mp 1/1.7" and one 64mp 1/1.7" for zooming
and i don't know why the first one exists.
why samsung doesn't use one 64mp camera like lg?
does normal sensors ( low res ones ) have better quality than high res binning sensors?
Here's a fact for you: The 64MP camera in the S20 and S20+ is NOT a telephoto camera. That camera was there solely because of 8K recording. That 12MP 1/1.7" sensor is the main camera.
www.notebookcheck.net/Fake-Zoom-Samsung-Neither-Galaxy-S20-nor-S20-feature-real-Telephoto-or-Zoom-Cameras.453934.0.html
The individual photosites can be a LOT larger, but with pixel binning, the real world performance is pretty close.
Always a Great Review Juan... Thank You for Always pointing out the real features rather than giving us your opinions.. Good work!
V50 & V60 is made in Korea ? Thanks
No one needs a telephoto camera in their phone until they're told to want a telephoto camera in their phone.
Pretty much.
My v30 has no telephoto and my camera woeks great.
GG, Matt!
I love this phone! I want to buy it but i can't find it! 😞
Check the photo comparison with the Pixel 3 and 4. Zoom lens make a considerable difference.
Usually I am disappointed when manufacturers eliminate features that where on the previous model.
But with the SD 865 prices, I think it is understandable. OnePlus pulled this zoom camera trick before with the op7, at least LG doesn't try to fool us with a useless depth sensor.
Nice analysis. Didn't comment on what I preferred on that previous video because I did think it was pretty much a wash.
On a side note, without a reference, I would have thought the colours where off on the v60 over the v50 too
LOL I know, couldn't help a little fun at Matt's expense...
@@SomeGadgetGuy Oh, no issues there. Ripe for the tease. 😆
Said this time and again: Love your content!
Edit: During the COVID 19 pandemic, YT limited the quality to 480p in India.
Just the video step down to 480p🙃🧐?!
Probably was still processing. Video was at 1080p for me.
First time on TH-cam?
Is a v50 a still a good buy?
I'm with you Juan. That said, you didn't tell Matt that it's a champagne gold mic. It looks like the noise reduction (smearing) was heavy on the B shot as well, on top of the crop/upscale (loss of resolution) issue. I can live with some noise but better detail. Nice job to illustrate a subtle, but important, point that would've been easily lost on spec seekers.
Waiting for the LG V60 vs Oneplus 8 pro comparison. The budget flagship battle royale. Juan keep enticing me to grab a V60, but I'm trying to hang it in there until Op launch in April.
Had LG given us a 256gb option I'd have bought it already. 😑 Storage bottleneck.
@@williamaungleyraud Expendable storage dude you can add MicroSD up to 2 TB
@@williamaungleyraud LG V60 has sd card support so i don't think you need that much storage.
Sd card still way slower than ufs 3.0 but they're way cheaper than buying higher storage capacity (if you buy them on sale).
For internal storage if you do a lot of gaming, like 20 heavy games probably. I still don't think you can fill all 128gb up.
Music and video recordings are all store on the sd card so i don't think you need internal storage for that.
Also SD card is way more convenient for data transfering since you can just plug it to the phone.
Like all your music and videos are in the sd card.
If your phone broke you lose all your data.
Ah Bro LG V60 is the best and Beast phone in 2020 especially in Camera photos and Videos Quality amd features in Rear and Selfie ,no phones can Compete with V60
I get to upgrade my phone package tomorrow, my options are LG G8X, Note 10 Plus or a S20 note sure what to take.
The Note and the S20 is the same price...
R u from which country ?
Right, I am going for the v50
0:15 this is really annoying because I can't tell if my TH-cam is full screen or not ;p
I used lg for years my last one was the G6 before that was the flex 2 went over to the mate 20 pro I bought then the p30 pro but it's hard to pay 1400 for any phone today and with Google out of the picture with Huawei I'm loving the v60 and I'm switching back to lg and I'm getting the G8 for my wife she has my G6 currently today but I'm glad for honest advice from another LG fan cause I wouldn't know I'm losing out on the telephoto lens if I didn't watch you Juan or painfully honest or J.williams on LG content so thank you for making this purchase feel really like I bought the the phone of the year
It's a shame that good competition is getting the shaft because of popularity "algorithms". I guarantee you this video about Samsung will make more ad money than my LG videos.
0:29 Im hype i see my comment 😆
Feel ya man 😝
if only v60 had physical fingerprint scanner and was more portable/ easier to use one handed... I would have bought it over the v50.
I’m liking the V60 more and more! I was skeptical, but now I’m not. I still kinda wish the wide sensor was a 16mp rather than the 13, but that’s just me.
I'm ok with the resolution, i wish it were wider like the V20 again.
Juan splits hairs & atoms between the V50 / V60.
Fact: you get 4x area of 2x cropped zoom compared to v50
Why you didn't compare 64mp vs 12mp for details?
Can you do low light video compareison?? What in the range on ISO?
the shutter speed in video?
V40 only shoots video down to 24fps, anything slower is time lapse
Manual audio level like the V40??
I don't really understand this. Would you mind to explain in detail?
PPL just want the hardware specs. They don't seem to notice if they actually use them.... You've just convinced me to hold on to my G8 .... Least I can play with that hand wizardry longer ... ✋
Yup. People wigging out about a spec sheet with NO practical consideration for what the individual parts do.
Do people actually use telephoto sensors in phones? Wouldn't you be better off with one great sensor and zooming in with your feet.
Nope. Folks just buy into the marketing hype of their favorite brands. The S20 "zoom" is basically the same as the V60 main camera. Only lens difference is 1-2mm. Otherwise it's exactly the same crop zoom.
@@SomeGadgetGuy I'll never get the hype for high MP count either. The sensor is still tiny, and phones pixel bin anyway.
They are very close as you say, so in terms of cameras there's really no point in "upgrading" from a V50. Personally i would take the almost the same camera performance along with the qhd display of the V50 over the V60 given the choice. Especially since the V50 will be going down in price now.
I take your point that adding an additional camera with a 2× zoom would have been kind of pointless on the V60. But they did go and add in my opinion an unnecessary camera anyway, that being the Time of Flight. The pixel takes about as good portrait shots without it as you can get and even with the TOF the V60 has some edge detection issues. I would have loved to have seen a macro lens but guess im probably in the minority...
O Bro u understand him wrong ,he was speaking about the telephoto Sensor ,that's no need to add a telephoto Sensor to V60 because that make no Difference , but The V60 Main Camera photos and Wide Angel and Selfie photo and Videos quality and Processing and Features and Audio Quality is a very huge Upgrade than V50 , i have the V50 since 6 months and i wish now to have that new Beast V60
People simply think that their device needs to have all these added features because it is popular. Honestly I've never even really cared to have a crazy zoom on my phone. The wide angle is great and the main sensor is also really great. To me that's all that matters.
This blew my mind
When shooting telephoto in medium to low light it automatically switches to main sensor and crops without telling you, which is why I couldn't understand why the telephoto looks so amazing in sunlight but anything less it looks like shit.
I'm sure Samsung and Apple do the same thing.
Just got a v60 recently and curious what it can go. I don't notice much difference in my v40 vs g8x, but this one gets a bigger sensor, much faster processor and generational leaps in AI and depth detection
Yeah. You'd think other reviewers would talk about this kinda stuff occasionally. It's a shame that people won't know that a phone like the Pixel 6 Pro is doing something really special when it DOESN'T switch to the main sensor in darker conditions, and the photos look MUCH better using the telephoto indoors...
I'm not upset at the loss of the telefoto at all. I am however upset at the loss of the rear fingerprint sensor and 1440p display. In my testing I feel the V50 9/10 performs better in optimal lighting. I don't feel like phones are ready for these bigger glass sensors in general. Im an LG fan, just like you. I just feel like LG would have largely benefitted from improving their software this year over upgrading their lens system. I dont know if LG is going to adopt new fans at this point... they do what they do well...unfortunately Android fans usually lean towards the complete opposite.
So basically, what the V60 has done is digital zooming.
But I do have a question about the telephoto camera module. If that module relies on the main sensor, then what's the point of having the secondary telephoto camera in the first place? Aren't there any phones out there with tele cam that didn't rely on the main sensor, just the tele doing its own job alone?
Both in medium to lowlight did digital cropping zoom with interpolation
At 2x, it's 3mp (v50) vs 16mp (v60)
100%agree
T-Mobile sells it for $800, dual-screen included.
El lente de zoom en el V50 si estas en lugares oscuros o con poca luz usará el lente principal por medio del software.
Si estas con buena luz si utilizaras el zoom dedicado.
Hola me puedes decir que tal toma las fotos el v50?
En el día supongo que se comporta bien, quiero comprarlo, pero he visto que en la noche no es muy bueno, sabes si usando el modo manual de puede salvar más detalle en la noche? Aparte, lo has usado con la g cam? Que tal se comparta con la gcam en la noche?
Saludos y gracias de antemano.
3.29 limage de gauche est un peu net et il y a du grain droite elle un peu flou et pas beausoup de grain je me rapelle avec mon v20 tout etait net et sans bruit