Musgrave 9mm: A Gun for the Black Market
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 มี.ค. 2019
- / forgottenweapons
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In the brief couple of years between the election of a new black-majority government in South Africa in 1994 and the dissolution of the Musgrave company, it attempted to produce a new 9mm pistol to sell to the burgeoning market of black South African citizens buying handguns. Ownership of pistols by black citizens had been legal under apartheid, but was (not surprisingly) quite uncommon - this began to change in 1994. The most popular pistol at the time was the Norinco 213 Tokarev in 9x19mm, which was available in large numbers and at very low cost.
To compete against this, Musgrave designed a simple blowback, polymer framed pistol chambered for 9x19mm using Beretta 92 magazines (which Musgrave had a large supply of, being the license Beretta distributor in the country). The gun was extremely simple, held together with a handful of screws and using a single action only hammer-fired mechanism. It was a commercial flop, however - unable to match the quality and price combination of the Tokarev and only about 500 were made in 1995 and 1996.
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
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Ian is probably the only man on TH-cam who can clickbait you and still end up pleasing you intellectually.
But it is technically not click bait
I know another channel that uses clickbait but actual does what’s in the clickbait until they do some really dumb math and conclude they’re done
It’s officialduckstudios lol
LindyBeige!
This one surprised the shit out of me inasmuch as it's exactly what it says on the tin: th-cam.com/video/2fjMpn7JCJ0/w-d-xo.html and you click on it half expecting it to be footage from a video game and instead there's a real man who moves like a character from a video game.
Yes, I love it when Ian pleases me.
"Black market".. Oh Ian.
South Africa the black market of the black market
We call it the "Urban Market" now
It's African American market you degenerates
@@nejinaji not in south Africa
@@nejinaji Gun was sold in South Africa....learn your Geography....
I love that; after Ian said it came in "package" deal," I thought to myself "package deal including what? The gun, a safe, and a bag of concrete?" And that's literally what it was. Genuinely a super cool story I think.
Freedom as Heck
It would be kinda nice for a package deal like that to be available in America for new shooters. You get a reasonable handgun, a small wear resistant case, and maybe a small firearmes saftey booklet.
@@dominicksmeech2994 One would hope someone gets more than a small pamphlet's worth of safety information before taking ownership of a firearm.
Tis a bit like a pilot's safety training consisting of that emergency guidelines card airliners keep in the seat pockets.
@@ToastyMozart Well yes, i understand that it wouldn't be a fix for good training, but it would just be a reminder of the basics. Besides, it sould include training like the deal in the video.
@@dominicksmeech2994 well hi point does sell a package similar to this.
Hard to believe there’s a new manufacture gun meant to be cheaper than a surplus Chinese tokrev. Those things are nearly cheaper than scrap steel.
I liked my Tokarev
Oh, the wonders of not paying your child workers
@Lassi Kinnunen certainly not these days, thanks to the one-child-policy the Chinese population is aging so rapidly that they are bringing in foreign labourers themselves because there's not enough young people to do the unskilled labour in the factories; not to mention wages have doubled or even tripled in a decade or two.
Ahahahah in 90s russian gangsters very liled those because they were cheap and some of them lacked markings and they just throw them away after few shots
@@molodoy.. yep. My father was in the Soviet police. He told me you could buy one for about $35 USD, and maybe get 8 shots off, and then toss it in the trash.
"A cheap gun"
Huh, how cheap could it be?
*disassembles gun*
Wooooow
Baaaahaaaa cheep piece o crap ! The lower is molded in two pieces and screwed togather! Say what????lol
Ever seen a Clarke Special.
The barrel in those has a barrel inside..I imagine that it was cheaper to buy a barrel pre fab and stick them in there.
I mean, it looks better than a hi-point
@Mr Papagiorgio Did you watch the video? It wasn't meant to be illegal at all.
"How cheap can it be?"
*dissassembly*
"Oh..."
2:42 That "anyway" is basically Ian saying "let's not go into the issue of apartheid in a twelve minute video about guns.."
Babooshka00 I actually respect the fact that manages so consistently not to get into politics on this channel. That’s a good idea when you’re talking about an issue as sensitive as firearms, and a doubly good idea when it’s racism and firearms. Both are a can of 🐛
@@jackroutledge352 a can of Caterpillars?
@@imadrifter Can of centipedes
that "anyway" in written format would have a MASSIVE footnote
@@imadrifter yes,
Is this title clickbait?
*Well yes, but actually no*
@U Tubred there technically brown people so its the brown market
What if he was a g nd said a new market opened up and numbers were going for the company so they manufactured a cheap pistol to get more out . And thats the truth though
"Gun for the Black Market"
*....YOU LIED TO ME.*
It absolutely is clickbait.
I clicked this to make the joke the other way as South Africa... it backfired, so maybe not clickbait
At exactly this time, a friend of mine worked in a gun shop in central Johannesburg and they were brining in hundreds of Tokarevs in from Russia every month. Sold for a ridiculously low price with holster, 2 mags and a handful of rounds.
I bought the Same package here 🇨🇦 . I paid $399 Canadian. I love it. Powerful little cartridge. 😊
I love the concept. "Let's see how cheap we can make a gun that actually works the way its supposed to." It actually ended up having its own visual appeal. Not saying I'd be the first to buy it but it was a good attempt at their goal.
If only the nambu creators knew💀
I love the aesthetic of South African firearms. Sort of the anti HK.
To those who don't know, it is literally called "The Black Market" here in 🇿🇦. And not in a derogatory manner.
The title of this video is spot on.
Factual, but hard to swallow. "Blacks want cheap guns" has many implied meanings.
All over the world.
@@Redmenace96 yes, you're right, it has. But when the market was opened up to everyone to purchase a firearm, the majority of black people (me included) in South Africa simply could not afford one.
Our economic disadvantage at that particular time in our history, coupled with our desire to own firearms, created what seemed to be a very lucrative business opportunity for the capitalistically inclined.
They quickly realized that "Blacks want[ed] cheap guns" and responded accordingly.
@@denverabrahams3535 I'm feeling you. I have lightly hunted in my life, and owned a firearm for protection for like a year. Now, I am interested in collecting and historical firearms. Go to the range 2x a year. Cheap, mass produced guns are just a non-starter for me. Only me. Speaking personally.
It is really nice that you typed a thoughtful and interesting response on YT. Most people are just nutz.
As an American, I do believe that owning weapons should be universal. But, I also think it is ok to point out the problems of cheap and easily accessible handguns. I'm ok living in a world where thinking and responsible people deal with those problems. Banning and saying no, is not the answer! SA has at least one thing in common with U.S. You are a young country, and are figuring things out. Nobody has the right to yell at you! ha,ha! Both our countries are 'teenagers'. SA is standing just outside the big curtain , and I believe will be an important and powerful place when Africans step onto the main stage. Please pardon me, if I am too presumptuous.
@@Redmenace96 I think its bad to have firearms for everyone. The government should have the "Violence Monopoly" and everyone else shouldn't have the power, right or weapons for violence on their own
@@hi_im_elli I feel you. Why do you feel that way? What is the downside of People having weapons? Is State Power the best power, and the only way? Why?
The way they put screws through the company logo really screams "quality."
That doesn't affect the gun mechanical operation, and why spend money making it pretty?
@@candidmoe8741 Why not just stamp it literally anywhere else?
@@BleedingUranium Because every change costs. You have to spend time designed a new frame, making a new mold, ...
@@candidmoe8741
Doesn't that imply that they made the mould _before_ they designed the gun?
It screams redesign an cost savings; it might have been a marketing ploy.
"What's your job?"
"Oh, i sell stuff for the black market"
"WHAT?!"
"What? I sell stuff to Africa"
It South Africa selling guns to the world in this case.
Wondered what a 9mm Ruger Mark series would look like, now I know.
Me too. Hope ruger makes a target 9mm soon.
Yep except ruger uses a bolt instead if a slide like this firearm
This is less fiddly to reassemble.
I would love a Ruger Mk in 9mm.
@toeff7852 no ruger uses a bolt like a nambu pistol. The Musgrave uses a slide like all postols
Ian, I finally figured out the thing I like the most about your videos. You act like we are as smart and interested as you are. I like to think I am as interested, at least. Thanks for the great work.
The mechanical segments are a mindfuck for me but i love the information.
@@garfe5555 I've found the more of these videos I watch the less confusing and more understandable all the engineery parts become. Good old fashioned learning.
He treated us like almost no teacher has ever done in the entire history of teaching
That is an astute observation, sir.
Even being so basic, crude and cheap... it looks good to me; very Distric 9 or Elisium like IMO.
Same here looks like a ruger mark pistol in 9mm kinda
Elysium and District 9 are both films made in SA, the director too (I believe) is from SA too.
@@jaanikaapa6925 He is, yeah.
Mecka Doyle k
I think I have Musgrave love
I was impressed with the gun laws in SA. I was able to rent a 1911 with a holster and a full magazine at the hotel for about $20.00 a week.
Was any ammo included?
@@sartainja One full 7 rd mag.
@@battleborn2002 Bar-gain.
How do they know someone wouldn't steal it?
Did you have to sign some sort of contract?
Then again they have all the renters info.
@@nopc9728 Weapons are usually dirt-cheap in war-thorn shithole countries.
Musgrave has actually been reborn, a couple of years ago, JJ Weapons based in the town of Ermelo in South Africa acquired the naming rights as well as the patents and left over actions and barrels. They are currently manufacturing hunting rifles, and have even developed their own Mauser-style action which they are still busy field testing.
The metal plate embedded in the frame appears to be a heat shield to prevent the heat of the barrel from warping the frame at the contact point. The excess heat may have caused binding with the slide or may have interfered with trigger movement, likely as a direct result of the frame being made as two halves. Great video as usual.
I was thinking it might be part of the metal the screws thread into. It might be simpler to have a plate you drill and tap rather than individual bushings inserted into the plastic.
Maybe its to re-enforce the trigger area to keep from folding the frame in half?
I've watched this video like 5 times because the explanation of selling a handgun with a bag of premix cement and a steel poll is just hilarious and awesome all at the same time.
Honestly I think this is a pretty neat idea. With the latest materials and processes this could be a genuinely decent design that gives Hi Point a run for its money in the dirt cheap market.
Ian. The pistol in case is very rare over her in SA. I have not ever seen one personally and believe me it is not because of a lack of trying. One mistake in your video however. Before the Firearms Control Act of 2000 you could buy a pistol or rifle with no proof of training. This requirement was introduced by the aforementioned act only. In terms of the previous 1969 act, you inly had to convince the police ( Central Firearm Registry) of a need to possess a firearm.
Frikkie Coetzee so much disinformation about SA gun laws. Even SA’s are poorly educated on the subject. I’ve been trying to parce out the specifics and figure them out for some time very much like my Canadian gun laws which are also poorly understood.
@@john-paulsilke893 The disinformation was intentional, it made it easier to selectively crack down on those the state or police didnt like. The old requirement of convincing the police that it is needed, accomplished similar goals in a more direct way.
@@john-paulsilke893 Join Gunsite SA or Gun Owners South Africa if you want more info
See I can tell you’re from Africa since your name has more syllables than a polish city
@joe jitsu They still don't. Why do you think the Dems are still pushing gun & speech control so hard?
Ben Musgrave was a relative of mine, so it’s always kinda surreal to see videos on his companies weapons.
Instant upgrade by 3d printing the lower! Refine the fire control group, et voila!, a decent, safe pistol. I really like the safety mechanism, chunky 🙂
Talking about Africa : The poachers guns were quite interesting ! Are we gonna see more of them one day ?
he did do a couple awhile ago if I remember correctly
id love to see more homemade guns on this channel, but its also not exactly fitting i realize.
Probably the only TH-cam "bait and switch" that I wasn't mad about.
An extremely simple firearm with minimal parts, but most importantly what an amazing story that only Ian can truly bring to life. I can just picture someone carrying a bag of cement along with the purchase of this pistol. Not sure what I would enjoy the most, disabling the pistol, shooting it or telling its history. What an amazing pistol for anyone to own!
The metal plate in the lower unit gives the screws for the barrel something to anchor against. I believe the metal can be seen through the two screw holes. It is the only structural metal built into the lower unit. I guess it helps achor the two lower halves to the barrel anf slide group. It seems very nice gun, as close to the old "Lock, Stock, and Barrel " an auto pistol can be.
BTW good luck with Headstamp Publishing. I look forward to window shopping your unique cataqlogue. Headstamp books seem amed above my paygrade. Would be gun designers could really use an " Encyclopedia of Terrible Firearms. " I cannot guess how many books would make up a complete set, You could include a video DVD of range time with them. I say "range time" because shooting them may not, always, work. Your work in always great, even with terrible guns.
I like it for how simple it is. I hope one of the firearms companies takes a shine to this and comes up with their copy of it. Some of us are STILL living in mud huts!
This looks uncannily like an antique air pistol I used to own. The name escapes me right now, but it had a similar grip angle and profile, the same tubular type top assembly. Call me crazy but I really like the way this thing looks
Definitely not crazy. The way the top hangs back behind the grip gives it so much more character.
Not an air-gun expert, but seems like one of those Webley air-operated pistols.
How was your air pistol cocked?
That thing is so simple, and kinda elegenat because of it's simplicity...next month comes my mini-lathe, I'll guess I'll give it a shot (no pun intended & of course just kidding)
Let me know how it works out?
You could post on your channel.
I'll subscribe.
So glad I find your channel.So many forgotten weapons,some of tham I never heard of.Videos are put well together,informative.
Thank you for the complete teardown Ian. Best gun channel on TH-cam.
"The handles are screwed together." Just like the Maverick nerf gun I took apart yesterday.
I'm impressed that the buffer spring is not very compressed like the Astra M600.
Ian, you're awesome man. I can't tell you how many nights I go to sleep and decide im going to learn something and end up on your channel
Honest to god up until I started watching you I thought I was generally well informed about the history of many weapons but good grief you have forgotten more than I ever knew lol. Every video I learn something new. It really is a pleasure watching these
It's a South African Hi-Point but not as ugly. 🤣🤣🤣
Certainly better looking by far
Damn, that was exactly what I thought.
I wonder if it's as reliable.
An advantage of this pistol over the Hi-Point is that it uses Beretta 92 magazines.
That steel bolt/slide thingy is definitely more compact than a Hi-Point's zamak slide, but I wonder if it's more expensive to make?
As of 2024, that 1000 Rand is about $250.00. Gun, safe, training, and everything.
That two-part screwed polymer frame is very reminiscent of the plastic toys I used to play with as a young lad.
Another sign of how cheaply these are made.
Also Kel-Tec. lol
@@twiggss4344 YEP. As a fan of Kel-Tec. Yeah lol, also keltec.
"Takes Beretta 92 magazines". Okay, I want one!
To my knowledge the little metal plate is twofold, it gives reinforcement to the barrel mount, and acts as a heat shield of sorts.
I would LOVE a video on obtaining technical data packages for guns like this one. because a few minor changes and that'd be a very nice gun for the US market as well
What niche do you think this would fill in the US market?
@@otm646 "Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated." - Marx
The knowledge and insight this man has is incredible. Great video mate !!
When I saw the title I started thinking "What the hell" why in the world would anyone intentionally invest the time and money in inventing and manufacturing an expressly illegal firearm. And then I confidently told myself "well I already know why it's on forgotten weapons"! Clever play on words Ian. And also an interesting and novel market for the people at Musgrave to try and pursue.
How is this so much cooler than a Hi-Point? I actually like it. The double stack mag from a known good design just makes it better.
I would reserve judgment for testing. HiPoints work more reliably than the knock off Tokarev that this pistol failed to compete against.
The hi point for all the crap it gets is pretty indestructible, watch Demolition Ranch he shot at the thing and it still fired
2:41. When Ian realizes he's about to open a giant can of worms. Nice save ole boy!
love the simplicity and the look of the little beasty !
thanks a bunch for the great video Ian ....nice little pistol would love thought to see it firing . Keep up the great work !!!!!
This thing is built exactly like the $1 BB guns the ice cream man sells
The ice cream man sells $1 BB guns? Lol
Most prolific content poster, on youtube.
Your publish rate is insane, how do you maintain the rage???
BTW, awesome, love your work.
he is Gun Yisus, he can do anything!
It seems like he films several of these in one day, still requires a lot of research, but that lets him head to an interesting location create a bunch of content then release an episode every few days.
i had one of these firearms in my hands at the iwa dealer show in nurnberg many years ago. the south africans did exhibit it and because the price was so low there was a good interest for the swiss gunmarket in it but they never made it to swiss unfortunally.
It is always very interesting to watch your channel, very informative, and which makes us discover all these weapons unknown to the general public.👍
Better looking then a HiPoint.
*than
Probably works a whole hell of alot better and has fewer parts... I'd rather mess with 5 screws than 1 roll pin, come to think of it
The hypoint is currently reliable
I actually LOVED my Norinco 213. I could swap between 9MM and 7.62X25 with just a barrel swap. All the 7.62X25 needs is a good expanding bullet and I would chose that over the 9mm.
The Norinco 213 is a Tokarev with a safety added, so it's a quality pistol.
The slide assembly along with the fire control group reminds me of a miniature AR-15 BCG and FCG.
I am from South Africa and I have never even heard about this pistol. Your videos are always very well researched and interesting.
This kinda looks like one of those Crossman dart guns from Wal-Mart. 😅
I'm a bit confused as to how such a light looking blowback pistol can handle the 9mm parabellum. Hi-Points and Astra 600s are certainly heavier with sturdier recoil springs, by the look of it. I also recall the difficulty Ian described with the Dreyse 9mm that had a system bypassing the strong recoil spring in order to cock it. What is this Musgrave like to fire, I wonder?
I was thinking exactly the same thing. Won't the gun beat itself to death with that little mass and that weak a spring in it?
I was really hoping to see you fire this weapon. Good video either way 👍
From a quick glance (before the video starts) it reminds me of of a Ruger .22 but 9mm
Love hearing the history of firearms as much as seeing how they operate
"black market" lol
That's African-African-American market mister!
Takes some black magic to make it work.
@@yoinkster6491 African American magic, sir
@@shupp6267 ._. Your one of those people are you.
@@yoinkster6491 *You're, and nah I just saw my opportunity to be unfunny
Very very Interesting Pistol design! Reminds me of the Spanish Astra 400 and 600 Type Pistols. Thanx for posting!
Thanks for great content. You should do a video on the Musgrave 12 gauge shotgun from South Africa.... no videos yet online
Wow, what an interesting video! I am a South African and have never seen this pistol before! It reminds me a lot of the old Astra 400 9mm pistols. Thank you for an interesting video.
This is quite fascinating and quite the turn of phrase when talking about the “Black Market!” Lol
Is it crazy that i want one of these, love how the lower frames bolted together
That thin mysterious thin metal plate in the frame, just below the chamber & the screws through the company name...
Looks to me like they intended to make some sort of more handy take-apart mechanism. But it didn't work or, more likely, was too expensive---so in the end, they ended up with 2 simple screws and since the frame moulds were already done...
Watching the disassembly, I see about 3 things that could be changed to improve it [replace the two barrel screws with a single dual pin unit with HK style pin detents to simplify field stripping for instance] that might improve its marketability...oh well
@@iatsd true enough, I just thought the external design was neat and a little refinement might be a good idea. Not that its going to happen, of course
I think it's beautiful. Beautifully simple. And actually quite attractive to look at. The Beretta magazine sealed the deal for me. I want one. I don't need one. But I want one. I think these would sell quite well in the US, if it's not manufactured with Union labor. It's far more desirable than the Remington R-51, and could probably sell for one third the price.
I wish there were more videos on TH-cam about this gun.
ahh the tokerev, when you have 250 or so dollars and need a gun that could survive a bomb detonation.
if i were to guess about that metal plate, i'd guess that it was there to protect the polymer frame from the barrel piece that protrudes underneath the barrel. Perhaps they were worried about either the force of the hammer dropping or firing causing that to wear that part of the frame. A very thin piece of metal would be a cheap way of increasing the longevity of the pistol if that were the case and would be cheaper than having to repair and return damaged frames.
That piece might not have been just a flat plate. I'm betting it was a U channel which the screws bolted into. I don't see how you would screw the barrel directly to polymer and not have those holes wallow out within a few hundred rounds.
@@jayzenitram9621 Between these two posts, you guys came to the exact conclusion I was thinking of.
I was thinking the same thing as both of you guys as well, at certain angles it definitely looks like the metal is also around the screw holes in the frame.
@@jayzenitram9621 I was thinking that too. Only reason I didn't say it was Ian said flat plate and was taking his word on it
I wonder if it was to provide some stiffness/resistance to the bolts that hold the barrel in. So it wouldn't get over tightened?
I just wonder how it would go down if every gun in that room had 1 bullet in it, and they were all set off at once.
Alot of Explosions
very interesting pistol indeed
you should take the two sections of that polymer frame apart and show us how the trigger mechanism looks like and how it works
especially the hammer disconnector
I like this design. It looks to be very reliable, simple construction, obviously lightweight. I want one. If any weak point I can see, the cast rear collar
reminds me a lot of the WW2 Era Astra 400 series pistols, Greatly simplified and made more cost effective.
So the gun designed to be cheap and available to the masses, ends up being extremely rare and expensive to own.
It's just like CCR's "fortunet son"
Made as an anti-war song, used in all war movies and games
Ian you're so diplomatic its insane, Great video too.
I think that piece of metal above the trigger on the frame bends up to the side and gives the screws something metal to screw into. It looks shiny through the holes.
That pistol looks like the offspring of a rough night between a CZ SP-01 and a Ruger MkIV
Would be intresting to see this vs hi-point shooting video.
In another few years that will be a Star Wars blaster.
You make fine video's. The tiny metal plate is there to align the two half polymer parts when putting them together.
What about the long lost Wamo pistols from the 50's. These are hard to find as well as a true mystery because the current mfg denies they ever existed. Thank you for all you have done to educate us on these forgotten weapons.
The Hi-Point of South Africa...Hmmm...maybe Hi-Point could get the patent rights for this thing. It disassembles slightly easier than a Hi-Point.
I would buy it
Same here
you can really see the economic thinking in the way this thing looks. On the grip frame they did a decent job of molding the grip and logos since it was just being cast so having those details on the casting didn't affect cost, while on the bolt everything was made around having the simplest machining operations and fewest parts possible.
Theres a certain elegance to its simplicity. Surprisingly decent-looking sights for such a low-cost weapon.
What a really neat, crappy pistol.
Blamo Kapow I kind of want one. Just to have it
@@TheMaritimeHorror i know, right?
@@TheMaritimeHorror You still lookin for your friend?
@@ILikeToLaughAtYou I am. Thing is, I’ve been searching all my life for Gavin. I don’t even know what he looks like.
Hello forgotten weapons and I think you can say You like guns. Well so do I, but this helps me learn more. Thank you.
When i saw the thumbnail, and the title, it made me think of some copy of a Welrod or similar assassin pistol used in black ops etc.. the thought of a handgun for the masses only registered once Gun Jesus started talking pre-94
Then I was like okaaaaay..... I was not aware that Musgrave made handguns. I used to do standard and Bisley. My standard rifle was an R1. My Bisley rifle was specially made for me (being in the SAP team) as I shoot mostly off the left shoulder.
Thanks Ian for enlightening me with this video on this jewel which is part of our national heritage.
Respect from South Africa 🇿🇦
I'd bet anything that the metal plate there is to reinforce the frame for those screws holding the barrel in.
I don't know why, but I *love* the way this gun looks. Maybe it's because it's a 9mm that looks like a .22 target pistol. Also, that grip looks really comfortable.
Needs some bailing wire to hold it together.
Could the metal plate be there above the trigger for out of battery protection to stop your fingertip getting blown off?
My guess is that it's an reinforcing and alignment plate. Since there are only a few screws holding the frame together, and it is made from relatively soft polymer, the plate would help the two halves come together properly and hopefully prevent warping and misalignment from occurring in that area of the frame. ...Just a guess though.
As usual Ian has proved to be instructive and very interesting . A Nerd who is not a Nerd.
Thanks Ian.
Very interesting history, really liked your video! 👍
See what you did there in the title! 😜
It looks suspiciously like a Ruger .22 pistol--with an improved disassembly procedure.
Exactly what I was thinking😃
Until you find a Mark IV. Two second field strip. Huge improvement over previous versions.
Thank you , Ian .
Really cool! Thanks Ian. I really learn a lot from your videos. Please keep up the good work!