Pump mounted oil burner solenoid
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 เม.ย. 2012
- Explanation of the oil solenoid mounted on the oil mini pump. Includes operation and troubleshoot of valve and solenoid. Also an explanation of the R7184 cad cell relay as used with the oil solenoid.
This video is part of the oil furnace series of training videos made to accompany my website: www.grayfurnaceman.com to pass on what I have learned in many years of service and repair. If you have suggestions or comments they are welcome.
If you are a homeowner looking to repair your own appliance, understand that the voltages and fuels used can be lethal and can cause a fire or explosion. Know your limits. - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
Excellent, this is the technical part of motors and pumps that really is never explained. Good video.
You are a natural Educator Sir . I love how you have a Focus video and then there is a practical demonstration . Thank You for your Knowledge ,Time and Passion Sir .
Welcome
GFM
Great video. I've not had any issues with these valves but good to know how they work
great video! thank you for sharing it.
Yes. Unless you smell burning, it is OK. Be sure the solenoid is tight.
GFM
A good video, thanks for posting.
Welcome
GFM
It looks as thought this can be used to replace a pump that currently has no solenoid, as long as the controller is also replaced. I take it the sol is NC. My pump is leaking ever so slightly it's time to replace it so I am questioning wether I should install one with a sol. Excellent explanation.
Nice just came across this video and it answery question I posted about what the wires on the pump do! :)
Walter Null Glad you found it.
GFM
The burners best friend, provides clean cycling of the burner. I like the separate solenoid valve addition rather than the internal ones built into the pump itself. they seem to have a higher failure rate. -@ least in my experience with Suntech.
I am wondering if you have a Suntec no-solenoid pump that goes bad and tests for cut off failure, if attaching a solenoid valve attachment would make the pump still usable?
@@bigpardner It should and I've seen it done when the pump had poor cut off causing a noisy shut down. But I think you'd be better off replacing the pump.
Most of your Mobile home burners are very specific on nozzle size and style. So stay with what is recommended. I am assuming cold temps are not a problem for the oil tank. Have you replaced the oil filter? When working on oil systems, cleanliness is absolutely key. Check out some of the other vids on oil service. The only other possibility is algae in the oil. Very uncommon but looks like black strings on the nozzle filter. Hope this helps. Let me know what you find.
GFM
Thank you sir
I just bought a clean cut pump and a Carlin ProX control. Gonna upgrade my old NewYorker.
You have the function of the solenoid backwards. It's not a normally closed hydraulic circuit but a normally open one.
That fluid flow circuit works by allowing the output of the pump to flow back to the supply side until the solenoid is activated and shuts that fluid passage off, thus allowing the pump to build pressure until the pressure/bypass spool moves backward opening the output port to the fuel nozzle.
That center hole under the solenoid is on the pump pressure side of the system and the side hole is tied directly back to the inlet side of the pump.
I thought the cut off valve inside the pump did the same thing. It snaps open when the pressure is built up, and snaps shut and holds, to prevent the fuel from dribbling out the nozzle on shut down. I’ll have to admit, all the burners I worked on, probably 1000 or more, never had this feature. It seems like a good thing to have, as it would be more precise than the cut off valve. I retired in 2006, so maybe these weren’t used as much back them. Good video
Yes internally. I would say the valve needs to be replaced or possibly just cleaned.
GFM
my green light just keeps on blinking doesn't say anything about that on the reset box just on flame,off no flame, flashing 2 seconds on recycle, 1/2 second lockout. what does it mean when it constantly flashes?
My guess would be the clean cut unit is leaking by. The solenoid only opens the valve and will have no effect on whether the valve will close. Hope this helps.
GFM
So these solenoids are not responsible for stopping oil peeing after the burner stops?
@@bkoz319 They are responsible for stopping peeing of the nozzle.
GFM
@@grayfurnaceman thank you for being a great teacher
Thank you.
great video gray thanks alot. on the r7184 or the newer genisys primary controls how would you go about proving the the primary control bad if the solenoid is not getting voltage while the ohms show that its still good? i guess to be more clear im asking how do you prove its the primary not the solenoid thats bad?
I want to start off by saying you to put out great informative videos and I enjoy watching each one. I used to a HVAC tech over 20 years ago, but have been working on cars for the past 20 years. The service company did not work on oil burners, only gas and heat pumps. So, most of my oil burner serving I've done primarily has been on my own oil burners which my family has mainly owned and none of these pumps had a solenoid installed. My thoughts on diagnosing the solenoid. I believe the solenoid can be tested similar to testing the solenoid on a reversing valve. After confirming power to the solenoid, you can remove the solenoid and hold a screwdriver at the opening of the solenoid and it should pull it in. Observing the removal , on this video, of the plunger, it seems you should be able to manually pull up on the plunger. Is this plunger sold separately? Great video!
Ok thanks Gray i think i got that better now. So if i get an Amp reading and Voltage im good. If i get a voltage reading and no amps I obviously have no "pressure" and thus no power bad control... What if i tied my solenoid into 120volt power coming down through the service switch and hooked my solenoid directly to power? if it opened bad control right?? could i test the individual terminals for power to with my meter. Thanks Gray I owe you so much, ur vids are making me into a tech ha!
Hi Mr. Gray. That was a very explanatory video on the clean-cut oil valve. I have a oil burner with a newer honeywell r7284U digital primary control unit. off late. i've seen it "hard lockout" several times. I reset it and it starts up and runs for a cycle or two then locks out again. the error on the r7284U says "flame proven ON during valve on delay" and the troubleshooting guide says to check the oil valve ? Would this mean that the solenoid is bad or the entire clean-cut unit is bad ?
Thanks 😊👍
Leaking internally ? as i don't see any oil dripping on the basement floor near the unit ? the coil shows a reading of 447 ohms. when would it be necessary to replace the coil or the VALVE STEM ? thanks.
Mine just failed, had to do service call. He fixed it it 10 minutes , $150 , Not bad for a Sunday afternoon service call. But now I can do it myself next time.
For that price, I would just let the tech do it.
GFM
LoL , He also quoted me a price of $125 for cleaning , which includes nozzle and filters. I may retire and let the tech do it from now on. Thanks for the excellent videos
Awesome
Hello, good morning, I have a question because my burner throws a lot of smoke and I tried to regulate it, but it's still pulling a lot of smoke
Hi sir, i would like to know if it is normal for my furnace when it is shut down a weak flame stays on. in case if it is not normal which part i should check and what is the sulostion for this problem. thank you very much for ur help.
I have this pump on a NorthStar pressure washer heater unit. Not putting fuel to the burner. Replaced fuel filter. Took cover off and cleaned round screen. I unplugged from the solenoid. The voltage only showed 45 volts when on.
I assume it is not working. Should have 120 volts. Probably cad cell relay problem.
GFM
Many thanks for your very useful videos. After my 44 year old boiler failed to fire for the first time I traced the fault to the solenoid which had an open circuit. The only one I could source locally was a Danfoss which was OK in internal diameter but too long to enable the nut to secure it to be attached. I fitted it nevertheless so it's a bit loose. It works OK but gets very hot in use. Is that normal?
I tried the solenoid using a magnet as you suggested, it was only then I realised where the passage for oil is. A close up of that would be handy.
Robin Dawes If it gets hot it may fail because it is not moving all the way when it energizes. The amp draw will be too high. Hope this helps.
GFM
Just came across your vid I have a grant boiler giving probs took a meter to the solinoide only getting 110 not the 440 u get is it safe to assume it's f##ked
Thank you Gray for this great explanatory video!
I start to understand how my oil burner works :-)
I would like to make some very simple 'oil consumption' meter.
I was thinking about something, but I'm not sure if my idea is correct.
I guess the oil flow to the burner is more or less a constant value when the solenoid valve is energised? And thus, if a know this oil flow value, I know the fuel consumption when I am able to measure the time the solenoid valve is energised?
I hope you can tell me if I'm right or wrong.
Thanks again for taking the time for making this video and teaching me something new.
staaaajn If you know the size of the nozzle and the pressure, then use one of the capacity charts that give the amount of oil for the pressure, you will have it. The nozzle is rated at 100#.
GFM
Thank you for your prompt reply!
How do you get the nut off of the top of the solenoid if the shaft just spins with the nut?
I wuz hair 2018... And here I am back again... with a perplexing issue...
Alberti Steam Cleaner (200 bar 15lt/min Hot pressure washer)....
The old fuel pump was a little worn and the injector (only 600mm of 1/16 copper tube and a 50mm brass mount/fitting for the nozzle)... dribbled to a stop.
Replaced the pump with a new unit (the old solenoid was making an uneven footprint on the seal and the pressure relief internals were getting scored, probably from NZ's crap quality Diesel & bug).
So it still dribbled to a stop... (I flip the injector out into the air so I can watch the burn... fades out in a second and dribbles for another second.
Releasing the WB trigger, turning back the temp dial and pulling power on the solenoid all end in the dribble where it should shut the flow near immediately and I can't see anywhere a buildup of pressure after the solenoid could store and then release after the solenoid shuts...
Tried a 3rd pump (2nd new).... same issue... sigh. Personal experience (15yr fixing steam cleaners) is the flameout is near instant..
Alberti say change the circuit board... but unless the board supplies some magical reverse voltage to make the solenoid shut harder.. it should be shut with no power, or held open with power.. so unplugging it should be fine...
sigh... Now I remember why I gave up working on computers... same annoying issues.
You probably have air in the gun line. Look for high spots in the gun line or the gun goes downhill.
GFM
@@grayfurnaceman For a steam cleaner the line from the pump is a copper tube that exits the pump, turns up beside the burner, across the top (about 600mm (2ft)in total length, and into a 80mm brass tube that points down into the burner with the injector nozzle... so very little volume to hold 2 secs of dribble. I even removed the sintered nozzle filter .. they're not really rocket science so I'm missing something obvious but well hidden... Maybe I'll try another nozzle (although I have cleaned it well and the flame is a nice cone showing the noz is not contaminated....)
Thanks for the info here! Having a problem with the solenoid seems to work when it wants too, by any chance if dirt got through the fuel would that maybe stop it from opening?
+Jeff Parish It could. More likely, the solenoid is failing. Hope this helps.
GFM
+grayfurnaceman combination of dirt and bad connection sad thing is furnace is only 4 yrs old!
Hi there Gary, I replaced my old air conditioning unit with a heat pump a few years ago. I was told that the heat pump will do the heating until the outside temp drops below " I think 40 degrees" then it will bring on the furnace, I have noticed that the furnace is coming on when its in the low 50 or upper 40's. Is there a way to adjust the temp at which the furnace is called for? I was wondering if there is a differential range that could be tightened up a bit.
Wendy Bergeron Most of these units turn on the backup heat if the temperature in the structure drops below 2 degrees below set temp. This means the heat pump cannot keep up with the load. If it is going to backup at higher temps, the heat pump may not be putting out as much heat as it was designed to. Possibly low on refrigerant charge. You might look for an ice "beard" on the lower parts of the coil. This indicates low charge. Hope this helps.
GFM
It is not unusual for the nozzle to "pee" oil out after the burner has shut down. It should stop after a minute. There is air trapped in the gun line that is compressed during operation but re expands when the burner shuts down. This can be minimized by use of a solenoid in the gun line.
Solenoid name and number To stop peeing in an old Sunstrand pump
Hmm. Lets try this: If you can use a clamp meter to check amps when the solenoid is normally open, amps (probably .1 or .2) are read the solenoid is getting power and energizing. (This does not mean the solenoid actually opened). No amp draw, then is voltage present? If voltage is present, the solenoid has failed. No voltage, (discount ghost voltage) control is bad. Hope this helps.
GFM
I have a 2001 Beckett. Would that era equipment have the oil pump solenoid?
It should have. You should see the solenoid on top of the pump.
GFM
What is a heat exchanger that is the camera
How are you Gray I have a question I have the exact same pump as your demonstration. The only way I can get it to run is cramp of the return line from the pump and bleed the system at the same time. Any ideas what's causing that
Sounds like the regulator is leaking by. Replace the pump.
GFM
Thanks for the replie but I didn't put the little plug in the return line figured out yesterday. But thank u great video.
Hello GFM, I find your videos very helpful and was wondering if you can help me out real quick. I have this same pump and 2 1/2yrs old, when it would time out I would hear the motor running for the 45 seconds. Now when I turn it on I hear a buzzing noise like if the pump is stuck. does that mean the pump went bad and I have to replace it? When I open up the cover next to the nozzle, the fan is pretty hard to move.
Jacob Lopez The buzzing may be the transformer making the ignition spark. I am assuming the motor does not turn. Some of these motors have manual reset safety that may be off. It will be a button on the motor that can be pressed in. Pump rotation can be somewhat hard under normal conditions, so you may or may not have pump problem. Let me know what you find.
GFM
Hello GFM, I've done a lot of troubleshooting techniques through your videos and found them very helpful. I've narrowed it down to the pump. I bought and replaced the pump and that resolved the issue. I wasn't able to turn the pump with my fingers, only with a pair of pliers. Thanks for replying back to me. You have a great day.
Hi and thanks for your brilliant and very helpful videos. The coil screwed to the axle of the solenoid valve on my Suntec pump (same principle as in your video) gets very very hot even after a few seconds. So hot I can't keep my fingers on it. I think something is wrong, though the burner that I just fixed seems to fire fine (just tried it in open air for a minute or so). Voltage is fine and within specs for valve (230 V in Europe). Valve marked 8 Watt, so should not be so hot I guess.
Any idea what the problem would be? Thanks in advance for your reply.
As long as the solenoid is correctly mounted on the shaft, it should not get hot. My thought is the solenoid has a short or the armature is not pulling in completely.
GFM
@@grayfurnaceman Thanks Gray for your prompt reaction! I checked the solenoid resistance and it is OK (almost 2 Kohms). The clicks in and out are loud and clear but you're probably right about the armature not pulling in completely.
Does that mean I have to open the whole pump inside out to make sure the armature pulls in correctly? Probably some muck around. Or is there some spring in there that could be kind of "tired"? To clean the whole thing without opening could I just "bathe" the whole pump in gasoline or thinner and maybe dissolve muck this way, in order to release to armature pulling path? Thanks in advance for your reply.
@@ar-oy7ok I see 2 ways of dealing with this. One, change the pump. Two, disassemble and clean.
GFM
Hey - love your videos. I have a Suntec B2VA-8216 on my Beckett oil burner. Most times it fires instantaneously but every now and then I hear a delay...maybe 3-6 seconds. Now that I’m watching this video I assumed it was the Solenoid, but I just looked at a photo of it and I don’t even see one on there? Is that possible? It’s old. From ‘86 I think. A Columbia furnace.
What else could cause the delay? Like I said, it’s rare, but does happen. Maybe once a year I’ll hear a small boom when it ignites. Thanks.
At my rental house Beckett oil burner I have a Suntec A2VA-7116 one stage with a Solenoid.
So do I NEED A 2 stage pump? It’s an 1100 sq foot one story house. If I replaced it, could I use a one stage (cheaper) as long at the RPM’s match?
Sorry for all the questions.
It probably does not have a solenoid. Delayed ignition could have many causes. Failing spark transformer, partially plugged nozzle, Incorrect setting of the electrodes. If the tank is lower than the pump you could have a leak in the suction line. 2 stage is only needed if the tank is lower than the pump. Both speed and rotation direction must be the same.
GFM
grayfurnaceman thank you for the reply!! I’m gonna buy a gauge to adjust the electrodes. I should make a plan to replace the transformer I guess. There’s no leak in the line. I can see it all the way.
Good morning. I have this pump on my furnace. It seems to have a very small leak by the pressure adjustment screw. How do i fix that ? Can i tighten the large nut around the screw ?
+Frank Reddy You can try tightening the acorn nut if it has one. If not, there is not much you can do other than replace the pump. Hope this helps.
GFM
+grayfurnaceman Thanks for your reply. There is no acorn nut...Just the large nut with the pressure adjustment set screw in the center. I will take a closer look at it tomorrow.
My beckett/suntec coil is defective. I can only get it to work by unplugging the coil, start up the furnace then plug the cord back in to the coil, then it will start and burn properly. I don't know what this process is doing so I am a little unsure if it's the 1. plugin, the coil, or the magnetic mechanism that is the problem. The pump is obviously fine. I would hate to have to buy the whole pump and coil just to fix this.
Any suggestions?
The only part I know of that is available is the coil. Your problem sounds like a problem in the pump valve, which means a new pump.
GFM
Grt video.sir i have rl 28 m burner.iam facing prbm fuel leakage from nozzle.Before ignition cycle nozzle is driping.iam thinking solonoid valve may be not closing properly.
Sounds like a solenoid problem to me.
GFM
@@grayfurnaceman thanks for reply sir.i appreciate your response.
Tommy D good video, thank you. my issue is the nut on top of the solenoid valve just keeps turning so I can't get it off any ideas
I can't say I have ever seen it.
GFM
Hey advice me a video in which it explains why the boiler turns on but the burner doesnt.
+Silvia Alvarenga There are so many things it could be. First, is the burner out on flame failure? Have you used the reset? Just press once.
GFM
having a coil test good on an ohm reading only checks electrical resistance. there can still be mechanical resistance causing a failure. any electrical device should be checked by measuring the amp draw. this will tell you if there is a problem with electrical OR mechanical resistance.
Good thought. The reason I used resistance is that if there was a mechanical failure, the solenoid would not pull in, and the solenoid would overdraw and burn up the coil. Thanks for the interest.
GFM
so that plunger is pulled up to let the fuel pass by, so if u remove that and plug up the hole that the plunger sits in. it should work then right
I believe so.
GFM
My name is rod from Olympia Washington I have an oil burner Beckett I've checked the coupler everything spins freely it's not stripped out put it back together and I got a clicking sound coming from it seems like my oil pump and then it shuts the breaker the red button off The motor feels hot that runs the pump?
Your pump is probably failing.
GFM
I'm running into a problem where I put a new pump on the burner runs and I have flame but only lasts for a minute before the oil Peter's out. 15" of w.c and pump set to 140 psi .65 80B nozzle
You have an oil supply problem. Vacuum leak or blocked filter/line or possibly oil gelled from low temp.
GFM
Can you bypass the return line so it is one line going in.
Yes, you will have to remove the bypass plug.
GFM
does it have to be primed if I accidentally put gas in the tank and drained it. I never ran it with the gas in the tank. when I refilled it with diesel it ran for a few jobs then quit working. my pump is on a diesel burning burner for a pressure washer.
My thought here is the problem is not with the fuel as you never ran it. You can certainly bleed the system to be sure there is no air in it, but if your tank is above the pump, it should not need to be primed.
GFM
the tank is below the pump. it's a hotsy pressure washer with a clear filter. the filter before the pump will refill if I drain it so I think the pump works. I removed the copper fuel line after the pump and when I squeeze the trigger no fuel comes out of the copper line. hotsy doesn't want to give me any advise so I'm here on TH-cam. for some reason the valve isn't opening. I'll have to find my volt meter and test it in the morning.
If the pump has a solenoid, it could have failed or be plugged. Some of the pumps also have an inlet screen under the pump cover.
GFM
Hey there! I have problem with my oil pump from 1992 year. Delta pump 230volt. Pomp works, takes fuel through filter and gives out back to the tank. The problem is that the fuel wont go out of the fuel to the burning nozzle. Any advice? Electro-valve works fine (attracts a screwdriver while the machine is heating up the water). Help!
Plugged nozzle?
GFM
@@grayfurnaceman I put short plastic hose instead of this copper pipe to see if theres coming oil out of the pump. Pump name is DELTA VM1LR2 2892
@@grayfurnaceman I plugged off eveything from the pump, fuel doesnt flow out of the pump
@@cezarycezary4180 Sounds like a dead pump to me.
GFM
My pump is not sent the Diesel to the burner
my pump is working but he diesel is not coming to the burner could you explain to me that it can be
You either have a supply problem,(filter) or a plugged nozzle.
GFM
How can I regulate it so it does not smoke too much or it can be
Smoke can have a number of sources. A plugged nozzle, incorrect combustion air setting, sooted up heat exchanger, flame impingement on the combustion chamber, incorrectly set gun in the gun tube, plugged vent. I would first start with a complete service of the burner.
GFM
a mouthpiece may be the Naso or as it may be misplaced
Mine is currently not sending oil to the gun but I have voltage at the solenoid.
Do you have oil? Is the filter plugged?
GFM
@@grayfurnaceman yes, 100 gallons. Pump bleeds fine, no air. The solenoid on the pump doesnt engage. I have 110 volts when the furnace starts. I believe the solenoid is bad. The local supplier sold me a universal kit to mount a separate solenoid and valve with a 4 second delay. I was not thinking when I put it in. The pump mounted solenoid valve is normally closed . I don't know if there is another port on the pump bypassing that built in solenoid. Found mine in NH ordered a solenoid and valve.
can a faulty cad cell prevent the solenoid engaging?
A shorted cad cell will prevent anything from happening.
GFM
@@grayfurnaceman Thanks I will replace that oil burners like mine are rare in London England where I am from
@@grayfurnaceman Your were correct the cad cell was the issue thank you
If the solinoid is bad will the pump still bleed, my pump is not bleeding nothing coming out
Generally, not. You could also have a supply problem.
GFM
@@grayfurnaceman I thought about undoing the feed line and blowing some air through it case it's clogged, when unit turns on it's hard to tell if pump runs because it's so loud
@@tre9563 Its also quite hard to tell if the coupling has failed. This will indicate a failed pump also.
GFM
First try blowing the supply line out. Assuming your filter is at the tank: Valve it off, take out the filter and reassemble the filter cup. I use a fuel transfer pump with a 1/4 turn valve, connected to the flare fitting so I blow back to the cup. With 1/4 turn valve off I pump it up then open the 1/4 turn. When you hear air bubble through your tank you got the line free. Now drain the sludge out of the cup and replace filter element, bleed like normal.
Why do they call it "primary control" ??
Are they any other secondary controls fitted on the oil burners ??
Why they don't just call it "controller" or "control box".
Andreas Chris Beats me.
GFM
+Andreas Christodoulou because it is thee control for the burner... it shuts down everything on the burner,(through the cad cell eye) ignition, burner motor/fuel pump..hence primary control.
Thank you for your comment but still i wonder who gives wrong names ??
Can i reply my question???
The whole thing its the controller (that Box) ....there is no any primary or secondary one ..is it ???
en español colega , porfa.
I've been stumped by the atupid nut that holds the solenoid on. The whole shaft turns and I can't find anywhere to hold onto the shaft to hold it down. Who knows what the hell??
I took a saw and cut a notch in the top to hold shaft with a flat head
Disel is not coming to the burner can you explain me because
The solenoid has been a huge cause of nuisance lock outs the past few years. The one your showing is a grey color that is one of the newer ones where they supposedly fixed the problem, If the solenoid is black in color and your having to reset your burner every now and then, replace the solenoid.They were bad. It may work great for a long time then all of a sudden it wont open one time.
Great tip. I have not seem them fail. Thanks
GFM
Hi mine trips out regular then after it's cooled for awhile it will start up again fine. Would this be a problem with the solenoid coil
In my opinion, the hell with those things.
Can the magnetic solenoid make a Beckett genesis go into an immediate lockout ?
Not that I know of.
GFM
@@grayfurnaceman was just having an issue with a primary doing that and had a guy tell me the solenoid could make it go into what he called a “quick lockout”. I’d never heard of anything like that
Not saying it could not happen but I have never seen it.
You might try disconnecting the solenoid to see if you get the same results.
GFM@@bjsavage9401