How Nintendo Screwed Themselves By Releasing One Of The Greatest Games Ever Made.
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 พ.ค. 2024
- The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker is not only a colorful adventure that deals with surprisingly mature themes - it is also one of Nintendo’s biggest failures.
Wind Waker is a game that was quite ahead of its time when it released.
As a matter of fact I’d argue that The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker was so far ahead of its time that it ended up being a catastrophe for Nintendo.
The game not only ended up being a financial disappointment, it also changed the public's perception of Nintendo’s brand.
Up to this day.
The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker marks a turning point in the history for Nintendo.
And it wasn’t a turn for the better.
To understand why Wind Waker was such a catastrophe for Nintendo we have to understand not only the economic realities into which it was released but also have to have a chat about the maturing of the video gaming industry as a whole.
In this video we will set out to dig up the tragic origin story of Wind Waker.
One of Nintendo’s best games.
And one of Nintendo’s worst games.
====== Timestamps-----------
00:00:00 - Intro
00:03:32 - Setting The Stage (Release Controversy)
00:08:15 - Sailing Into An Adventure (Premise and Gameplay)
00:22:35 - Why Ganon Destroyed The Island (Economics behind Wind Waker)
00:30:43 - The Master Sword (Story Discussion)
00:38:58 - Why is DK Rapping Again?
00:54:39 - The Final Tragedy Of Wind Waker (Thematic Discussion)
====== Credits for the Music
The Legend Of Zelda OST - “Title Theme”
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time OST - “Gerudo Valley”
The Legend of Zelda: Majora’s Mask OST - “Last Day”, “Song of Healing”, “Woods of Mystery”
The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker OST - “The Legendary Hero”, “File Select”, “Dragon Roost Island”, “Hyrule Castle”, “The Great Sea”, “Farewell Hyrule King”, “Fairy Spring”
Donkey Kong 64 OST - “DK Rap”
Conker’s Bad Fur Day OST - Bats
Additionally the video uses licensed music from productioncrate.com and motionarray.com - เกม
I'm surprised you didn't mention how you can take a fairy back to your grandmother and heal her sadness and she gives you unlimited soup
Is there a possibility that he doesn't know?
Not even a mention... Did he even play it?
Expecting everyone that makes a video on a subject to mention literally every single facet of that subject is pretty unreasonable.
@ernoise You're right that it's unreasonable for someone to mention every detail of a subject...but as a counterargument: This video is over an hour long. We feel like this detail should be covered since it relates to Link's Grandmother (in which the video kind of hinges around).
@@leftovernoise No but making a video about a character and leaving out a key part of that characters story to make up your own story is kinda of unreasonable.
Wind Waker actually puts a ridiculous amount of work into making combat flow with the music, to the point where the game keeps track of the pace of the music and the animations to make it so that hits always land on the best moment-- depending on when you press the button, they'll slow down or speed up the hits so they always land on the beat. It's an incredible piece of work that I don't think I've ever seen in any game since which does wonders for the game's aesthetic, and I can't believe they managed to do it despite the rushed deadlines.
Hi-Fi Rush times many of its animations in the world with the music, and you are heavily rewarded for timing your attacks with the rhythm!
Ah, I forgot about that game! I haven't played it yet, but that does seem very similar.
What makes it crazy is that I hear the sounds of hitting enemies in TotK in the dungeon combat theme...but it's not when you hit the enemies?
It's a huge step back, immersion wise, I think.
That’s a really cool fun fact I had no idea! Pikmin does something similar. There’s a very popular video on TH-cam explaining how it works. It doesn’t directly keep track of the animations but it plays certain jingles depending on if you get your Pikmin out of danger in time.
@@theflyinghandofloob2062oh yeah scruffy, love that guy and his videos about pikmin and game music and stuff
There was a scrapped idea of having Link physically grow older over the course of the game. It truly is intended as the story of a child growing up and sailing out into the world!
I can probably see some issues with that concept. Mainly this aging system takes over a year or more in-game, so it kinda doesn't make sense how this conflict between rescuing Link's sister and then dealing with Ganondorf takes too long from a story prospective in order to make Link grow older. Unless they implement time traveling like with OoT.
That sounds so fun
You don't break her heart, she's literally asleep. She's sleep talking, the whole point is she doesn't know you are there and you're seeing how the absence of those she cares about is effecting her. The thought of the loss of her grandchildren is basically killing her.
Like her sleep is almost magical because the act of trying to "heal" her broken heart wakes her up and reveals your presence, and more importantly that you are alive and have grown. This gives her hope and that is what actually makes her better.
yes she is asleep. she is also heartbroken that we left in the first place
Affecting*
I'll let you cook, but also it's necessary to visit grandma to clue us in that she's fallen ill, and that we need to help her. Revisiting the woods up on top of Outset while we're there lets us test out our new bombs to blow open the Fairy Fountain, which nets us a wallet upgrade (VERY necessary for the back half), and also snagging a fairy (in case we didn't have one handy) to revive her.
DANG i FEEL LIKE i MISSED SO MANY BITS OF THIS GAME caps
I think the real mistake Nintendo made with the "fast sail" is that they saw it as more of a special item and not a necessary QOL change. So they hid it in a mini-game. But the auction house's probability isn't actually an issue. If you buy the items, it narrows down what items will appear. Players generally want the treasure charts and the hearts. The only people this will end up being a problem for are the people who found out there's a special sail before playing the game, looked up a guide online on how to get it, and then refuse to engage with the auction house mechanics because they're in a rush to get the sail. Nintendo doesn't design for that cohort of players and they never will. They want special items to just be found in the world as a reward for exploring. They're not concerned about a meta discussion being pushed by game sites that need to get clicks based on article titles like "YOU NEED THIS SPECIAL SAIL IN WIND WAKER"
I agree with you, but they hide very basic QoL and special items behind some absolutely ridiculous challenges or places that most fans will never see, even if they play through the game slowly and look everywhere. I take every Zelda game very slowly with 0 guides, and I'm always saddened by everything I missed once I look it up. They should atleast give a hint in the dialogue somewhere..
Something which I am a bit surprised Ceave didn't bring up during that segment is the possibly that players won't find out this QOL upgrade is there because they visit and get a few other things and then leave without even seeing the sail, until they return to the auctions again.
I personally kinda wish Nintendo added a side quest for it. The fast sail feels like an odd item to have at the auction house for what it is. The joy pendant, treasure charts and piece of heart all feel like something the citizens of windfall could have, but the fast sail is a magical sail that changes the wind based on where you point it. Plus also its feels like enough of an upgrade to have something special with it. If they really wanted to be lazy think the simplist thing would be to have an extra ship at windfall with a new NPC complaining that their days of sea racing are over. "They took my *swift sail* away! It's not fair! I only had a few more races until the championships. I'll never be able to buy it back with how high people bid at the *auction house* ". Maybe there already is a NPC like this but I wouldn't know, ive only ever played the gamecube version.
@ZeranZeran They still want you to sail without it, though. The idea is that you do a portion of the beginning of the game like the og before you come across the sail.
@@ZeranZeran personally I like games that aren't afraid of players missing something, the sense of discovery is so genuine when you uncover it yourself. It's definitely a valuable experience, and if some player doesn't want that guides exists nowadays.
There's a sweet spot for sure, I never played Zelda so idk how obtuse the secrets are.
This is why I hate seeing people "defend" TOTK's disregard for story by claiming that "Zelda was never about the story", that "the plots have always been basic" and so on. That's not a defense, it's punching others down.
While the plots were simple, their themes ran deep and were cohesive with the entire game, it's an incredible disservice to claim that "it was never about the story". Even if gameplay was prioritized first, there's simply no denying they put effort into building the world, story and atmosphere around that.
“Even if gameplay was prioritized first, there’s simply no denying they put effort into building the world, story and atmosphere around that”
You mean just like what they did with TotK..?
TotK had a story, though? Basically unavoidable, also. An excellent job.
@@fronthal157 they probably mean the disregard of the previous games as a story that is present in BOTW and TOTK, with the creators not even wanting the game to fit onto the timeline to "move on", which hurts the franquise
@@fronthal157 Totk admittedly had an effortful story in the form of memories or whatever, it's just that no major events happen within the main adventure in regards to ganon or zelda, which just makes the player feel uninvolved to the story besides just going to slay ganon when preparing to finish it. It also didn't help that so many random new unexplained things were introduced, some implied events even offsreen, which only raised several unanswered questions (dragon transformation, bootleg triforce, hyrule's apparent founding history, unexplained world changes).
@@Shade04rekI can understand this. There were no actual major events (things you couldn't skip). But there was a lot of dialogue as you explore and everything you do is leading you to "find Princess Zelda". It may sound like a cop out but I really enjoyed crafting my own progression through the missions and characters. It felt more immersive and dependent on my own initiative. And since it's an interactive medium I thought that was an engaging design choice. By the end, I had made my own way, by my decisions, my training and learning and preparing, no body holding my hand, and I defeated the dragon. I do however respect and love the linear story progression of the older games. They would have to find a way to top wind waker in that regard for me to want to go back.
Also, the Earth temple being a tomb totally makes sense, since, during funeral rites, the dead are buried and returned to the earth. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
I find it so funny that people hated Wind Waker graphics so much that Nintendo made Twilight Princess the most realistic game in the series, and then Wind Waker’s graphics aged so much better
Edit: I don't get why so many people take this to mean that I hate TP graphics. I think both games looks very good in their own ways. WW just aged better
Twilight princess aged very well wdym
Most things about Twilight Princess are funny to me because they made that game just to placate all the fans who cried about Wind Waker, and aside from the dungeons WW did pretty much everything better than their precious "realistic Zelda" lol.
@@xaviersavard6343Agreed. TP is highly stylized in that kind of vaguely horrifying way that I was a little sad WW lacked (those character designs are something else, man). In the end, I love both games for different reasons. Nearly 20 years later and people still constantly shit on one to try and hold up the other.
TP aged just fine? I've never understood why so many people hate on that game's graphics. It feels as though I keep hearing the same argument about how TP tried to look realistic and because of that it aged poorly. And, yeah, if you're looking at this game through the lens of realism of course it doesn't look good because we've got games that come so much closer nowadays. But why people view the game _through_ this lens of realism I never understood. Sure, while the game definitely used darker lighting and grittier textures, it had a very defined artstyle, and it clearly _wasn't_ going for realism. There's so many goofy character designs and cartoon whimsy to be found in Twilight Princess that the realism argument never made any sense to me. God, a lot of the time it feels like there's a war between these two games amidst the Zelda fanbase and everyone has their heads shoved so far up their asses that they cant just appreciate two fantastic games for being fantastic, acting like one's existence belittles the other.
@@LooseAsADEUCE Twilight Princess is a straight upgrade to Ocarina of Time. OoT wins the best game award because it did it first, and TP should have improved the formula in different ways
For the "tedious as part of a game design" thing: the Undertale Genocide route is that exactly, the game takes away all the fun interactionsas a punishment and the fact you have to go grinding is to play with the theme of determination, it's honestly great fromm an artistic PoV
And then it rewards you with 2 of the 3 best bosses in the game...
Out of curiosity, who is the third one?
@@jestingset7893 The top 3 is Asriel, Sans, Undying in any order
@@laytonjr6601that’s part of the game’s themes tho
@@stellanovaluna how is "it reward[ing] you with 2 of the 3 best bosses in the game" part of the games themes?
Or did you mean that what Drazil232 was saying was relevant to the games themes?
Great video! You mentioned asking “why did they choose to make it like this” without asking why they originally chose to make sailing somewhat tedious. In interviews, the developers said the decision to make sailing take so much time and effort for the player was intentional. It was about seeing something in the distance and building the anticipation of finally getting there and making landfall. And they wanted players to become distracted by other adventures along the way. It was very much a precursor to BotW’s design.
That intent mirrors my original experience exactly. Sailing around and getting distracted and going on little adventures is exactly the reason why I loved Wind Waker so much. I feel kind of bad for people who view the swift sail as a necessary fix, or even an improvement at all, because it means they missed out on my very favorite part of the game. I suppose it's the game's fault that they didn't have fun with sailing like I did, maybe the mechanics of sailing needed to be explained better so everyone realized you can change direction without changing the wind, but either way those players missed out on some real magic.
THIS!
This is why I disagree with him saying Windwaker wasn't an exploration game because it absolutely was
@@chfgnI sadly played WW for the first time last year and wow, I just LOVED the adventure in sailing. I never felt annoyed to sail anywhere and I even pulled out a large paper and plotted my own notes irl. It was the best Zelda experience I've ever had.
Yeah I haven’t played WWHD but the idea of the fast sail just seems to me to go against the point of the game.
20:44 Why didn't you just buy whatever they were auctioning? The items don't respawn if you win the auction, so at most you only need to enter five times (assuming you win). The heart piece and treasure charts aren't bad to have anyway.
Yeah, aside from the Joy pendant (which does respawn) everything else is also useful.
broke
@@19Szabolcs91It's been ages since I've played the game, so I don't specifically remember, but the wiki says that nothing respawns. Once you buy all four (or five in WWHD), there won't be any more auctions.
@@AbruptAvalanche I... may be misremembering things.
I also don’t think it’s a big deal, but that method of avoiding RNG only really works if you already have the first wallet upgrade. The soonest you have access to the Swift Sail is when you return to Windfall to obtain the bombs. But to get the adult wallet, you need to use the bombs on the opposite side of the map on Outset. Making that trip would be a breeze with the Swift Sail, but you’d only have that if you already bought it with the starting wallet. And even if you did get the larger wallet, you’d need to take some time filling it up to be able to buy everything at the auction. So your best bet is either rolling for good RNG or just buying one or two things first, and hoping you have enough money for that. But in order to arrive at this conclusion, you’d need prior knowledge of the game, which first time players wouldn’t have. It’s most likely that they’d just skip the auction entirely unless they heard about it from a Tingle Bottle from when the Miiverse was still online. I do think that the Swift Sail is a little too difficult to obtain organically, but I also mostly play the GameCube version (I don’t like the HD visuals) so I’m used to the slower sail. I honestly kinda like the slow speed because it makes the world feel larger. Of course, that justification won’t be enough for most people to put up with the slower speed.
I am so fucking excited to watch this. Greatest channel on TH-cam. I know these sort of videos are less successful than what Ceave used to focus on, but it’s genuinely something he has a great talent and an obvious passion for.
These are my favorite videos of his, shit gives me life. I only get sad if it's a game I haven't played since I usually won't want spoilers
This comment is of course kind of ultra ironic, seeing as how popular video essays are nowadays. Like man this kind of comment would have made much more sense during peak Gamer Gate, but now? I dont get it, Ceave is just "good", which means little when hes in competition with the greats like Dan Olson and Jacob Gellar...
Agreed, these are by far the best videos with the best quality I’ve ever seen
and as tragic as the algorithm circumstances may have been, your Wind Waker retrospective is, at least in my opinion, a monumental masterpiece. And in the end that is the only thing that matters.
No matter how much this platform likes pushing cheap content, you deliver the greatest quality analyses I've seen anywhere on the internet. That closing line of yours hit very, very deeply. I am extremely grateful for the work you put in, because I've learnt more about game design, game development, game history and everything surrounding it than I could've ever imagined, and I'm looking forward to everything you still have in store for us.
This is one of the best videos I've ever seen, it almost made me cry!
How ironic, it's just like the game itself.
@@trashtrash2169 Same, but not "almost"
Ok in defense of the auction house: All of your math was done under the assumption that 1) Players know that the sail exists and eventually becomes available for auction, which I'd imagine the vast majority did not on their first playthrough and 2) Players will actually use that knowledge to reset the auction house over and over again the way you did. It probably wasn't intended to be reset. At all. You're just meant to buy whatever comes on and then once you do, that thing will never be available for the auction again, meaning that once you buy the heart piece, the two treasure charts and the joy pendant, you're probably (I'm not 100% sure but I am sure you can't infinitely get treasure charts and heart pieces) guaranteed to get the sail. And that's the worst case where you get the sail last, and it only ever happens if the 2 conditions I mentioned above apply. Even then, there's a bunch of players who will just miss the sail entirely, so I think the amount of time wasted by this is actually much, much smaller than what you calculated because most players won't even try to reset it that often.
Of course, it still isn't ideal to lock something as important as the swift sail behind an auction like this where a decent chunk of players probably won't ever even realize it exists and locks the sail behind a lot more rupees than just the sail auction itself, and I actually believe that to be a bad design decision, but if you're going to argue that there is almost no "bad design" then this isn't exactly a case of it either since the justification is simply "It's a great reward that's hard to get, making it feel extra special when you finally do obtain it".
I don't really agree with the idea that there is barely any "bad design" because there are a lot of cases in which the reason something is the way it is isn't good anough to justify the decision, I think this is one of them and that there are multiple of these in pretty much any video game. But if we do go with your line of argument and don't call things bad if there's somewhat of a justification, then there's no way this is one of the worst examples of design out there.
The joy pendant respawns, so it's still possible to lose to RNG and leave the auction house thinking there's nothing more to get without a system to correct it
@@laytonjr6601 That's certainly true but I'd imagine that once everything else is taken, the chances of getting the sail are still higher. I tried to confirm this but didn't find any source that explains how the RNG behind the auction works but I'd be surprised if the other items got "replaced" by pendants and leave a chance of 80% for the pendant vs 20% for the sail.
@@drintgood6258also one of the fish men in wind waker hd tell you about the auction and a “super fast sail” so they do inform you if you chart your map which the first fish recommends
@@laytonjr6601Legitimately, I never saw the joy pendant respawn on a single night. Perhaps each night the pendant returns (idk since I've always one-night claimed everything every time and never returned), but getting the swift sail wasn't too "bad", except if you go get it in the VERY early stage, which can cause a bit of a headache farming the rupees within the area and not having the bigger rupee bag (thank goodness money limitation was removed ever since Breath)
One thing I loved about Ceave is that he doesn't necesarily has to talk about the biggest most groundbreaking entries. He just talk about what it feels, and thats awesome.
Nintendo screwed themselves with The Zelda and I screwed myself with The Wii Wii
@@DJ_POOP_IT_OUT_FEAT_LIL_WiiWiiNice
It's not confirmed that Greatfish Isle was one of the cut dungeons and I personally believe it wasn't, because its destruction is an important plot point. It's theorized that the cut dungeons could be Fire Mountain and Ice Ring which were majorly downsized.
That would make more sense than having 3 dungeons so quickly back to back in the first half
@@TheGalaxyWings I wouldn't be surprised if the Tower of the Gods was added fairly late in development. Also, if you'd consider a hypothetical dungeon on Greatfish Isle to be back-to-back with the Forbidden Woods, wouldn't that make Dragon Roost Cavern back-to-back with Forbidden Woods as well? Or is that what you're talking about? Because if that's the case, there are mini-quests you have to do on both Dragon Roost Island and Forest Haven before you enter the dungeons, and a hypothetical scrapped water dungeon would have had the same on Greatfish Isle.
Even though there's no real proof of it, I've always believed that one of the cut dungeons would have been a third sage temple involving Aryll awakening as the sage of seas. They mention how she naturally has an affinity with seagulls, and her absence after revisiting the forsaken fortress always felt like they planned to do something with her afterwards but couldn't.
Sunken Hyrule was also said to be explorable and that's how you were supposed to access the Earth and Wind temples.
I think the most important aspect about Wind Waker is that the Link we see is not a reincarnation of Link from any of the previous games. He's just some kid who wanted to save his sister, and the gods found favor towards him because of his deeds.
I'm afraid that's not true. It's a myth perpetrated among the fanbase. While it's true that the Deku Tree says otherwise, that's mostly because he expected this incarnation of Link to LITERALLY be the same incarnation from OOT. However, Ganondorf confirms at the very end of the game, right after the battle with Puppet Ganon, that the Hero of the Winds is the Hero of Time reborn after all. And yes, that comes from the Japanese text as well. Ganondorf uses 生まれ変わり).
Granted, this is in part due of a cultural divide between Japan and Western countries. In Japan, reincarnation is not a fantasy trope, but a religious concept that has deeply permeated into their culture as a whole. If you read enough Japanese media, you'll realize that reincarnation is basically the default form of afterlife, so to them this doesn't come as much of a surprise, and they accept it without much hassle. Western audiences, however, tend to be more resistant to the concept due to out Christian tradition, so a lot of people demand further explanations to how it works that Japanese people deem unnecessary.
However, I never got that mentality that, because this Link wasn't a reincarnation, he had to earn his deeds through hard work. That implies that the other reincarnations of Link did not... despite the fact that literally ALL of them had to prove themselves as well, even after they were labelled as "chosen ones".
@@XanderVJ Thank you for the insight, I'll have to do more research because for the longest time I've come to believe that, so it's going to take a bit of my own digging to come to a similar conclusion as yours, I'm sure. Rest assured, I'll be doing it :)
I'd like to think my knowledge of Japanese culture to be pretty extensive, I try not to rely too much on textbook classifications, as I find them to lack a lot of nuance. But I am just a single person, I doubt my knowledge and understanding comes close to someone who has grown up in that culture. But as far as I have learned, Japan is widely a non-religious country, its religious aspects tucked away into various niches. Agnostic or spiritual-at-best is what I would describe the average 日本人.
I think for me, the implication that the others didn't earn their title was never an assumption on my part, but I can see how one might interpret it that way. I think for me it was, whether true or not, something akin to "bloodlines," where the next incarnation of Link could be anyone with even a drop of blood relation to the previous heroes.
I feel like Wind Waker's intro was pretty explicit--the Hero of Time did not return(because at that point, he didn't exist anymore, having gone back in time). And so there was no direct inheritance to pass down the Triforce of Courage to, no one the gods could point to and be like, "Yo that's a sleepy boi, let's give him the Triforce of Courage."
Zelda, at the end of Ocarina of Time, had taken the Triforce of Courage from Link the Hero of Time. It had been shattered for one reason or another, and hidden among the Great Sea for the next Hero to find, whomever it may be. At this point, the "bloodline" inheritance was supposed to be highlighted as unnecessary.
I can only conject, but it's possible that the developers or story writers wanted to do away with fan-theories that Link _has_ to be related to the previous Link. Of course, this is all but basically ignored in the next two installments, asserting that the Hero of the Twilight was in some way or another blood related to the Hero of Time, and the Chosen Hero's battle with Demise basically plants the struggle between good and evil to be cyclical and related.
Overall, I think one can argue that Ganondorf's comment, noting that the Hero of Winds is indeed the reincarnation, can be summed up as, "Wow, you did it kid, you inherited the will of the Hero, and now I recognize you as more than just an interfering child. Time to die!" I think that's just as apt an explanation, and could pretty much void everything I've written above in response.
@@biggrayalien4791 it's only tangentially related but there's a really good video called "Why Do You Always Kill Gods in JRPGs?" about some of those japanese cultural ideas around godhood, which I feel like is similar to being the incarnation of a hero as in the zelda series. the two of y'all in this thread might find it interesting.
@@isaac8441 Oh yes I've seen that one! Really good video, I feel like it hits the nail on the head on most of its topics. 😄
@@XanderVJThat's just Ganondorf projecting.
Surprised you didn't mention Komali the Rito prince as another example of the theme of kids growing up. The scene where he wonders where Medli went after she leaves Dragon Roost Island with Link is something that's always stuck with me.
that part always made me a bit sad in my youth for some reason. Komali just stands there with his wilted flower that he wanted to give to to Medli who he really looked up to and will likely not see for some time. the first play through I actually tried using a fairy which "revived" grandma earlier thinking it would revive the flower and trigger a dialog and possibly get a heart piece reward or something but was disappointed when nothing happened as I thought it was a very clever idea at the time.
The Earth temple is named as such as we put bodies in the ground, and Medli accompanies you there presumably as a metaphor for her ancestors (the Zora) 'dying'.
The wind temple, I think, is just as simple as leaves fluttering in the wind.
The king wishing the past away becomes even more tragic when you realise that the reason why Link and Zelda were protected in the end while the king wasn't: He's part of the past. And he probably knew that when he made his wish T^T
The feels when Link reaches out for him and he just does not follow them to the surface because he realizes that he is where he belongs and it wouldn't be right to place himself into the future he himself said he is not a part of...it's certainly a moment to remember. WW has a great ending all-around. Honestly its sequels too, even if they aren't as thematically grand.
Surprised you never mentioned Komali. He portrays the clinginess and hesitation theme from the younger perspective, wanting to stay in his room and keep to his pearl. Komali is supposed to be going through his own coming-of-age journey, too, but he doesn't want to. It's not until Link inspires him that he finally leaves his room. Then, later on in the game, we see him with his wings (the coming-of-age for a Rito) and with far more confidence than he had before. Komali shows that it's also up to the younger generations to seize their future. It's okay to be scared. It's okay to not want to grow up. What matters most is taking that first step anyway. It's a learning experience, but it helps you find yourself.
Honestly the video was all over the place and some of the themes feel like a reach.
Interesting video as always, even if I don't buy every theory. Side note to the side note: Aonuma didn't come up with the 3 pieces of the Triforce being power, wisdom and courage, that has been the case since Zelda 2, almost 10 years before Aonuma joined the Zelda team during OoT's development.
I'm glad you are defending the dungeons. Ever since GMTK made that video about how the dungeon is linear, and is not good design and that's just completely false. it never feels linear, and nearly all the dungeons are really enjoyable and varied. I don't need La Mulana rfom Zelda to have fun, I just want to have an adventure in a cool place.
Way too many people treat everything GMTK says as facts, when really its just one guy's opinion of what he likes in games.
Linear is not a bad thing.
30:00 I love the implication that Star Fox 64 is a later Zelda game. Now THAT'S a lore-based Game Theory I'd be fascinated in
It's called the Nintendoverse theory
Praying the algorithm will take kindly to this vid
same here
Nice to see the channel banner slowly filling up with the themes you cover
yeah
Seeing Ganondorf as a father figure gives him so much more depth in this game, and he was already one of the better-written Zelda antagonists. He coveted the wind of Hyrule not out of a desire for power like in other incarnations, but as a genuine concern for his metaphorical children, the Gerudo. Like any good parent, he only wanted what he truly believed would be best for his children. Through this lens, his biggest failure (and the only reason we consider him a villain) is his inability to move on from the past and accept the present. Like so many of us, he’s not purely evil or malicious - just misguided.
Ceave, I absolutely love these analyses. I already had an immense appreciation for the N64 Zeldas, and you’ve elevated Wind Waker to that same level in my mind. The perfect addition to stories focused on growing up, developing maturity and compassion, and finding your footing in adulthood is one that grapples with letting your children go through the same process themselves. These games really are special; thank you for giving them the love they deserve.
This Ganondorf is the same one from OoT. The only other times we had Ganondorf separate from his OoT self were in ToTK which in my opinion was the biggest insult cuz he was just craving power... because... and 4 swords adventure. if I remember correctly.
Saying that you "break your grandmother's heart" by visiting her is just wrong.
At that moment, she is already heartbroken and has even fallen ill due to that. The game forces you to see that scene to really show how much the loss of Aril and Link has affected her (Perhaps it's a trauma? Like... What happened to Link's parents? Are they dead? Did something happen to them causing grandma to not wanting you to leave, so to not bear another loss?).
Also, if I recall correctly does one of the people on the island tell Link that his grandma is fallen ill and that a fairy may help, but the fairy fountain is locked up (Hinting at you using bombs to access it unless you already have a fairy).
And in the end, healing grandma gets her out of her depression, as she realizes she's acting selfish and child-like, so she forces herself to not fear so much and even gives Link his favourite soup whenever he wants it.
Finally, unrelated, but I love how Link's expression is so different when he drinks the soup vs drinking a potion. Like with soup, you can see so much happyness, given that it is his favourite meal. Meanwhile with the potion is he not too pleased drinking it, probs because of its origin (literal slime) and (most likely) not great taste.
It's small details like this that make me enjoy the game.
Wind Waker was my very first Zelda game, 20 years ago. I’m turning 30 this year and just recently replayed it, and the ending hit harder than it ever did back then. As someone who never had a carefree childhood and is only now learning to let go and look towards the future with hope, I finally realized that this is what the game has been trying to tell me all along.
Suffice it to say I love this game. ❤
It was my first too. I really wish they would port this out to the Switch.
I could barely read when I played this game initially. I spent over a year on Outset, because I couldn't read who I needed to talk to, or process that talking to people advanced story. I couldn't figure out how to use items, because I couldn't read the instructions. I escaped most of the miniboss rooms by getting mad, quitting, then coming back to find myself at the dungeon entrance with the item. I never figured out that the boomerang targeted things, I just threw wildly and used my sword & bombs to cut vines. I never knew that you could use arrows on a boat. I spent a full year sailing the ocean before figuring out how to get Cyclones' power (and it still didn't register that I could use arrows on a boat).
In all, it took me 4 years to see the end of the Wind Waker. It was supremely challenging for many reasons, and I spent months on individual Dungeons. In spite of all of that, and in spite of not understanding most the conversations, 8 years old me remember certain feelings.
Meeting Valoo, King of Red Lions talking with Jabuu, Greatfish Isle being destroyed, the full exploration of the Earth Temple, entering Hyrule Castle, walking the path to Ganon's Castle, listening to Ganon's longing,
And most of all
Hearing the King wish us off.
Every one of these moments, I remember feeling like I was seeing the end of a story that I was never a part of. I didn't understand why the stories had to end-- I agreed with Zelda when she said "You could come with us!"
I didn't understand why the King had to stay behind. When Link swam back down, I thought Link would reach him, share his bubble, and they would come to the surface together.
"I have scattered... the seeds... of the future."
I didn't know what that meant. I couldn't have know what that meant. I didn't know why that would be good.
18 years have passed. Those feelings I felt back then have stayed with me, and now I understand them. The loss and the hope both make me cry
You are making me cry I’m a 18 years old kid that dosent wants to leave his parents because i’m afraid of the future!
Thanks ceave, this was amazing
Wind waker is a rare case, much like Pokemon Black and White, where an excellent game released at the wrong time. The culture of the early 2000's were hostile to "kiddy shit", everything was edgy and dark and gritty, console shooters were about to dominate the industry for the next decade, and GTA on PS2 would permanently shift the gaming industries priorities, especially in japan, with its unprecedented sales.
Wind Waker was hated because nobody wanted a cartoony game in the early 2000's. As cartoons fell back into fashion later in the decade, thanks to the prevalance of anime and the success of fantastic western cartoons (ATLA, Teen Titans, etc), Wind Waker was reconsidered. Especially in the 2010s, as Dolphin emulator hit 5.0 and WWHD released, a much more cartoon-accepting culture loved Wind Waker. It was always a well designed game with great visuals and fantastic gameplay. It was just overshadowed by a shitty culture, and a much more dominant console (PS2 had GTA, FF10, MGS2, Kingdom Hearts, and God of War.)
Unfortunately. The culture and the domination of the PS2 made a LOT of otherwise excellent GC games get flamed on launch. Pikmin, Metroid Prime, Luigis Mansion, etc. All excellent games in their own right, rejecter by a gaming public who werent equipped to appreciate them.
To be fair, that Zelda Spaceworld demo was really awesome, and I can understand why people were disappointed to get "Funko Pop Link" instead of the cool and handsome Oot inspired design. Nintendo should have known there would have been backlash at making the game entirely Super Deformed when earlier Zelda games were always more fantasy anime style.
@@metaltornado3457 even if the demo was cool, as this point, we got twilight princess, and Wind Waker is much, much better. Not only gameplay wise, but stylistically wise. Wind waker link is far from a funko pop, he's chibi and he's cell shaded. He's more like a modern version of kid link from OoT than adult link. Link is just as much a child as he is an adult
As a major fan of Wind Waker and Black & White, I am well too aware of being ahead of my time... lol
@@metaltornado3457I would have liked to see them make a game out of that short of OoT Link vs Ganondorf. Would have been amazing.
@@HHGamingOfficialI remember loving BW when I played it. It was fun, loved the ending and the exploration. Mhy sis is currently replying Pokemon white and also enjoying it as she did back then.
A very beautiful essay. As someone who doesn't have children, nor ever wanted them, I do appreciate the new reading of Wind Waker from the perspective of a parent. I don't think I'd given the King's thoughts as much consideration as you did, and I find it very enriching.
It's wild to realize that I was born the same year this game came out, and now I'm old enough to understand what the overall message of the game was.
It's always been interesting to me how the two most rushed Zelda games in Majoras Mask and Wind Waker both happened one after the other but are also two of the most timeless, thought provoking, unique and phenominal games to ever exist. Both games also exist in a way that only truly can be beloved with age as at the time it's hard to know what to do with them. This is where my personal problems with games like Tears of the Kingdom and Skyward Sword lie, They're very hard to look back on and gain a new appreciation for. There's no 2nd layer to them
21:00 The claim that RNG is a bad mechanic here assumes that obtaining the Swift Sail is the sole purpose the auction house and that everything else should be actively avoided. The fact that the minigame originated in the original release of Wind Waker when the sail did not exist and thus could not have been part of the original prize pool invalidates that assumption and proves the claim to be simply wrong. Plus, everything else that appears in the auction house will be desirable to a casual player except the pendant. Using treasure charts to hunt loot is a key feature of the game that supports the its theme of embarking on a grand adventure and exploring an open world to discover all of its hidden secrets. Heart pieces are a highly desirable reward in every Zelda game.
RNG would be a bad mechanic if key items were replaced with filler items like other spoils once purchased for the sake of keeping the minigame playable, but that's not the case - buying an item removes it from the prize pool completely, and the auction house shuts down once all items are purchased and its inventory is depleted. The game was designed with the intention that you would eventually end up buying everything it has to offer, and once the game has fulfilled its purpose it is no longer available. It was never meant to be repeatedly reset it until a specific item spawns.
On that note, your math assumes not only that the game was played 10,000,000 times globally, but also that every single one of those 10,000,000 players is going into the auction house only for the sail and never buying anything else. If someone was to pop into the auction house every once in a while when they had a few spare rupees to spend, as it was intended, rather than only ever going one time as soon as they have 150-200 for the sole purpose of buying the sail as early as humanly possible with no intention of ever returning...
There is a 20% chance that you will find the sail the first time you enter the auction house. 20% of players will have found the sail by this point.
If you buy the first item, there is a 25% chance for the sail to spawn the second time. 40% of players will have found the sail by this point.
After purchasing the second item, there is a 33% chance for the sail to appear next. 60% of players will have found the sail by this point.
Flip a coin. If you haven't seen the sail you, there's a 50% chance for it to pop up now. 80% of players will have found the sail by this point.
Congratulations, the sail is the only thing left to buy. 100% of players who simply play the minigame as intended instead of gambling on RNG will find the sail by their fifth try.
Items being removed from the prize pool after being purchased provides the bad luck protection you insist the game needs, essentially guaranteeing that you will see the item you're looking for after just a few of tries if you just play the minigame instead of continuously resetting it until you see what you want. You only perceive RNG as bad game design here because you refuse to acknowledge the game's mechanics beyond that RNG aspect, and choose to depend entirely on RNG to try getting the sail right away rather than simply playing the minigame until it's eventually forced to give you what you're looking for as it was designed to do. The fact that you "had" to reset the auction house 12 times to get the sail isn't a sign of bad game design -- it's a sign of a bad gamer.
Maybe he played that game so much he forgot most people aren't on a low HP run or something
The bad luck protection for the auction house is buying the other items.
Like, those numbers seem staggeringly bad until you consider that that's only the way it is if you're resetting for a specific item, which only happens if you know what's there, meaning you either played the game before or looked it up. At which point, yeah, bad luck can happen. Most players are just gonna buy whatever is there that time and come back again when they're ready. Like, it sucks that it took you 40 minutes but that's a lot more of an edge case than you're making it out to be.
Yeah the whole time Ceave was going on I was like "But wouldn't you also grab at least the Heart and the Maps if they came up?"
Wow.
I was a child/almost teenager when this game came out and I was obsessed with it. I just now replayed the game with my 5 year old daughter and it was so amazing. I often wonder what kind of a world I am leaving these children, and I already worry a lot about what my children are going to have to face, particularly given the bleak and dark direction I see the world going in. If there is one thing I could wish for their generation, it is hope.
Are we sure the auction house doesn’t use fake RNG? Your math is correct in a purely randomized setting for the sail, but a lot of video games actually use fake RNG. for example, each item may be coded to not appear in the auction again until every other item has been spawned in at least once. Or at the very least, it may be coded such that the sail is gaurenteed to spawn in by the fifth auction at least. Or maybe items in the auction can’t appear in direct succession. I’m not excusing the game design, as I think it’s a truly bizarre choice to lock the swift sail behind such an obscure feature in the first place, I’m just saying it may not actually be truly random and as bad as you may think. Typically games don’t actually use RNG because RNG often actually looks less random to the casual player, because true RNG can cause the same thing to spawn endlessly. Of course I’ve done no research on if the RNG of the auction house is true or not, but at the very least I’m positing the question
About the sail thing, I just bought all items for sale, then there is no chance that the sail is not gonna be there last time, because they don’t repeat. If I remember correctly
it’s sad that the main themes of wind waker is “you can’t hold on to the past you need to look forward” in both game design AND explicitly in the themes of the game. and then wind waker did poorly and they had to follow it up with twilight princess-a game that is imo leans WAY too heavily on oot’s legacy
Windwaker was so fundamental to my history that learning about the controversy was a bit of a coming of age story to me. I was young, just came off of a tough move half way across the country, and only really had my game cube as the only memento of my time from my previous home. The game didn't catch on with me though. I've never been good with feeling fear, and that pirate fortress gave me nightmares. I somehow managed to get myself stuck in one of the hallways with the pigmen that send you to prision, but in a way that any movement would always alert the pig, no matter where in his patrol he was. After that, I would delete my save and spend the rest of my time with the game on outset. It's kinda funny to think about that with your read of the game. I was quite literally not ready to face the world away from my parents yet.
It wouldn't be until my mid teens, after my old wii burnt out on playing wii games but could play gamecube, that I would go back to this quirky little gemstone. And I 100%'d it. Every map, island, unique decorations, heart pieces. The whole 9 yards. I was smitten. It's weird to hear that it was nintendo's own awkward relation ship with people my age that set the game back. I lament the time it wasn't given, to release at a better time with more in it. A good game suffers a bad games fate.
I dont click on anything faster than a Ceave video, you spend far more time thinking about these games than the other 99% of video essayists and it shows!
Genuinely top tier essays, I'm the same
i stopped after five minutes, can't stand the voice but glad you enjoyed it
Some of my first online arguments were defending Wind Waker, so I remember that era vividly. Its also why I don't put a lot of stock in the current arguments in the Zelda fandom: these people don't know what they want.
Every single time you hint at the conclusion of your analysis I always want to be skeptical. I think to myself: "There's no way Link's grandma ties into a satisfying conclusion, no way." But every time you just completely deliver. This video moved me to tears. Fantastic work.
I still think the Puppet Ganon connection is a bit of a stretch
in the speedrun we don't ever see grandma, but instead go into beedles ship and leave. the game just wants the area reloaded basically.
I remember actually agreeing with Ganondorf and being pissed off the King yoinked the Triforce out of nowhere and flooded my Hyrule
15:18 I don’t know if it was a purposeful joke, but I think I’m going to start saying “in my humble onion” from now on. I love it! 😂
Btw fortunately WW is my FIRST Zelda game, so i have zero bias toward the direction of the game, and i was still an elementary school kid back then instead of a teenager.
Because of this, WW still holds to be my favourite Zelda game, and favourite Zelda plot of all time still. It really shows how ahead WW truly is.
For me fortunately I played ocarina of time and when I got to wind waker i was stunned I was never bised because iam
A story buff and world build buff and when I saw the words Hero of time and man of evil came for the gold power I WAS BLOWN AWAY and started to realize through out the game saying to myself HOLY SHIII THiS IS THE ORIGINAL EPILOGUE TO OCARINA OF TIME THE ADULT TIMELINE OMG 😱
Yeah I love wind waker especially for this very reason no other Zelda will aside from
Skyward Sword really gave me that holy crap revelation plots feeling moments
I was hoping Breath and tears would have done this BUT they unfortunately played a very cop out messy cheesy game to appease everyone of every damn timeline UNFORTUNATELY to the point I didn’t care at all ugh 😑
@@thatjrpganimefanplayerjusi8003
They ruined the entire Zelda timeline with BotW+ TotK :<
No more interesting parallel universe.
Also while BotW is by no means a bad game, i do feel it is the weakest 3D Zelda game when it comes to exploration, contrary to popular belief that BotW is all about exploration. When you know 90% of the empty space is just gonna be Korak seed or worse, a pointless enemy base camp with garbage chest, it kinda lose the motivation of exploration really.
It's a lesson that more/ bigger doesn't mean better. A condensed / focus experience can be so much more effective.
The Zelda developers were on fire in this time. They were so insanely inspired and passionate! The ambition and integrity of The Wind Waker is unmatched.
Jabu (the big fish) was supposed to be a dungeon but it was cut out.
So, your point about Windwakers Auction house being objectively bad game design because a good chunk of players will need to reset the auction house didn't make sense to me. Yes if you were only going for the fast sail and reset if anything else popped up it than it would make sense players would grow frustrated but you couldn't you just buy the item in the auction. Heart containers or maps aren't trash and your odds for getting the fast sail next time go up because you're sampling without replacement. Would it cost too much to even buy one item and then the sail that it lends to a bad game experience for some anyways. (If this point is addressed later than my bad, I'm in the middle of the video and for some reason this section got me up in arms). The odds btw way that you had to buy all five with this method would be 0.05 when repeating this method many times.
IKR i was getting so annoyed watching him explain that
Yeah just buy each item and your odds increase permanently
not the floating head with hands being the final boss in wonder 💀
My Mer passed a few years back. A little into Covid. This grand mother made me think of her. Thank you for the moment of reflection.
Incredible video as always Ceave. You've easily become my favourite content creator and I hope to one day be able to afford to join your patreon to help support you. In the meantime I just want to do what I can by convincing other people to watch it.
I've never played Wind Waker, or any Zelda game in fact, but the more I start to pay attention to the franchise through content like this, the more I start to almost regret my lack of involvement. My favourite final boss segment in any game ever is the final boss of Sekiro. Everything about the leadup to the fight, the game design around you being able to completely destroy a boss that you struggled so much against prior, and the actual mechanics themselves make the game feel so climactic. To that point, the description and footage of this final ganondorf fight strikes me as a similar level of climactic. The water coming down and the themes coming to an end really seem like an incredible end to such an experience. I have been trying to play through Majora's Mask because I was told to play it spoiler free, and when you made your video about it I wanted to watch it, and thus it gave me a reason to finally play MM. I hope it has as impressve of a climax as Wind Waker does.
I was one of those who HATED the reveal of the then-new Wind Waker graphics. But I don't see how any Zelda fan could pass up a new mainline entry into the franchise. So I purchased it any way. The game looked gorgeous. The video quality of those years just could not capture the beauty of this game in motion - not in internet video and hardly in photos. You truly had to see it for yourself.
I was blown away by the looks of it and so too was my hatred of the art direction blown away. It clicked and I finally got it.
I loved my journey through this iteration of Zelda, although it was accompanied by a number of disappointments. Disappointments include how baren the ocean felt after awhile. But the most enduring highlight for me is how the story subverted my expectations. It's a bittersweet tale that I've not encountered in any other Zelda. Long after the credits rolled, I still have a hard time letting go of Hyrule the way its King does.
I never understood why everyone hated it either.
A flooded world and no future for the children? Wow this game really WAS ahead of its time!
Once again it is incredibly sad how underrated this video and this second channel is as a whole. I hope that, assuming the channel continues, that it works out as a success in the end. With quality like this, there is no way it won’t.
While disconnected from the things I am going through at the current moment, I still find the themes and story of windwaker incredibly moving, and can see it impacting my life in the near future. I know it seems like an odd outlet, but your perspectives and takes on the games are really helpful for me on a personal level. With each story you explain, I feel like I learn a little bit more about myself, along with the game. Thanks for helping present the storytelling of games in a manner that lends itself to that.
I always loved your analysis of SMM mechanics and short storytelling associated with the dangerous list of evil, and I feel like this is a whole channel of that sort of thing, and I cannot get enough of it. Wish I could become a patron but I’m not sure I can, maybe someday.
I am legit blown away by the structure of your essays and general writing. Some of the best constructed essays on TH-cam right now imo.
"tedious as part of design" reminds me of "5cm per seconds" - the god awful long scene on the train with all the delays. But it just makes us, the viewer, feel how the protagonist has to feel.
Another great example of this is Undertale's "genocide"/"no mercy" route. Grindy and tedious by design, thus discouraging this path of pure cruelty.
Wind Waker is in my top 3 Zelda games, along with Majora's Mask and Link's Awakening.
Treasured Wind Waker memory: When I first got the game, my mom came into the room while I was on Dragon Roost Island and she was like... "Oh... Oh! This music! I love this music!"
One thing I’ve thought about:
Do we sail away in the king’s dead body?
Will you talk about the sequels to this game, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks? With your insight into these games, I would love to see what interesting conclusions you would make about these games. Personally, I thought of Phantom Hourglass as a sorta "spin-off" in its story because it all takes place within a dream of sorts and I thought of Spirit Track's story to be teeming with missed potential, where the game takes place in this newly industrialized Hyrule, but the game never commits as much as it could. Like, Spirit Tracks is basically the real sequel to Wind Waker, but the kids ended up making a Hyrule so similar to the one the King envisioned. I dunno, maybe you have a positive light on the situation here. I mean, the story of Phantom Hourglass is alright overall I think, with characters that develop over the course of the game like the Ocean King, Linebeck, and Ciela. It tells it's own story, while unfortunately neglecting story details I was interested in from Wind Waker, such as Link's family.
Maybe spirit track is hinting the cycle of life, every people’s hope are ultimately derivative from the existing world
I find the DS sequels interesting and quite neglected, although perhaps a little simple to make a full retrospective about their stories alone. Phantom Hourglass was good for Linebeck's story and I also liked Bellum as a villain, it was an interesting change of pace. I was initially disappointed however since I wanted a continuation of Wind Waker's story, although Wind Waker works well as a self-contained story. It would also be really interesting to hear Ceave's opinion of the gameplay in both of these games. Ceave always has interesting things to say about gameplay.
I agree that Spirit Tracks had potential to be better. I find it odd that the King of Red Lions tells Link and Tetra to forget the past and find new lands, and when they do they call it 'New Hyrule'. That kind of defeats the King's advice. Nintendo could have come up with something more creative for the lands Link and Tetra find: I would have liked them to go with a Polynesian inspired setting as a new kingdom with an entirely different culture than Hyrule.
21:10 "there realy has to be some form of bad luck protection"
There is, it's called "buying the other items to increase the odds"
I loved Wind Waker since the day it came out. It was and still remains one of my favorite Zelda games of all time. I never understood the hate for it. I especially loved that each island had its own little puzzle or gauntlet you could go through for a reward. I compare the shrines in Zelda BotW/TotK to it a lot, and I think Wind Waker actually did it better. Because the shrines and Koroks in BotW/TotK are just too samey, and you know exactly what the reward at the end is going to be. The islands in Wind Waker felt more varied and the reward was always a surprise, but it was always something good. Exploring the islands in Wind Waker was incredibly fun, doing shrines in BotW/TotK feels more like a chore.
I never really understood why everyone thought this was one of the top video game endings as a kid, but you helped me see it in a light that I hadn't before.
This whole story about the fastsail is only such big of an issue if you try to cheat the system. A regulare oblivious player will go to the auction and most likely get a map or charm, and once he has collected enough rupees he will return to see what else there is. The whole thing is only tedious if you try to bruteforce your way through it, it's the process of optimizing the fun out of something.
with the auction thing, im pretty sure everything but the joy pendant is only available once. so you just buy all the things, as they come up, so assuming u hit a few joy pendants you will get it in like max 7 nights. resetting 50+ times when to save money is a waste, easier to grind cash and just buy everything
Joy Pendant disappears when you buy it. You odds increase every time you buy an item that’s not the swift Sail. You have a 20% chance to get it right away.
I believe part of the point of the interaction with Grandma is actually to make you want to help her. And the heart of Wind Waker is adventure, exploration, and the desire to help others, so I find it perfectly reasonable to assume that you're intended to find the Great Fairy on Outset and use a Fairy to heal Grandma. She's so distraught that she doesn't even realize Link is there with her, until you heal her.
I mourn the tragedy of the Wind Waker. No seriously, the tragedy you have shown me literally made me cry. But not merely out of sadness over the potential that was dismissed by the community for so long, but rather because of the beauty of the story - the themes that I seemingly failed to see myself, despite having been a fan of the game since my early teens. I appreciate the subtlety Aonuma seemingly put into this game, and even more so the fact that you saw it and made us see. Thank you.
my only real criticism of this video is that the adherence to the story being about parental figures, and especially ganondorf being a negative father figure, is a big stretch. the game is definitely about letting go of the past, but if it was so specifically about parents letting go of their children, the ending would be completely different. the point you made about the puppet is very confusing to me and doesn't really cohere, but even putting that aside: ganondorf and king hyrule aren't arguing about ownership of link and zelda; they're arguing about ownership of the mythical (yet dead) land of the gods. and when your children go off to live their own lives, you don't drown in the ocean. king hyrule died because he, like ganondorf, IS hyrule. he even says that the land of the future will not be hyrule. he wants the kingdom to be history. ganondorf would happily let link and zelda do whatever they wanted after he took the Triforce. the focus isn't the children. the conflict is between two old men realizing their fight no longer even matters. i think that the whole parental point IS touched on as a natural consequence of this theme, but it itself isn't the point.
A good tip for game dev:
Players don't even know what they want, so don't listen them if you want to make a game that can mark history.
This, times a billion. Unless your group that you are polling from are industry professionals that work alongside with the game/entertainment/IT industry you will get nothing of value. Look at FO76, it's launch was overhyped and didn't deliver as-per-advertised, then they *listened to players* and came up with a cavalcade of idiotic suggestions. (Nuclear Winter? Fortnite in Fallout...? Really?) while having nothing to *add to the game that they purport to support.*
You want to listen to someone? Listen to fellow devs, listen to industry leaders, and listen to the guys printing money from tiny games (Undertale, West of Loathing) while taking in newer ideas that do not always mash properly and require some adjustments (Cyberpunk. It's still a glitch but it's not CyberGlitch anymore.) and making sure your systems can support what you take in (Bethesda. In a nutshell, all their games are tiered to consoles and do not care if your PC can run it at all.)
I good dev needs to know when to listen and when not to listen. Players are short-sighted and can't think of long-term consequences/pay-off, and often only think from their PoV, it's obvious why giving them everything they want is bad. That said if you have a terribly flawed product, and you refuse to listen to players, you risk them leaving and being left with a bad, dead game.
Finally got around to watch this...
Anyone who thinks storys made for children can't be mature is giving up on so many wonderful stories...
Too many shows and movies and games that call themselves "mature" only use that "maturity" for shock value, and in turn don't handle their stories with much maturity.
A mature story doesn't need to be deep. It doesn't need to be dark. It just needs to be honest.
I remember the biggest criticism back then being more about the oval heads and deformed character dimensions, more than having a cartony style in itself. The WW designs simply looked too goofy and took cartoony just a bit too far. This famously caused overcorrection in TP as well. I think everyone just wanted OOT's style more but with more polygons, something more grounded for imagination but not over-realistic, and to not fix what wasn't broken.
just a nitpicky question:
why are you asking the question "why was the [Gamecube] game so hated on release?" and using the remastered version for your footage?
I imagine because having black bars on the side due to 4:3 aspect ratio would look ugly. Unless I'm wrong and WW did have widescreen. He also likely prefers the QoL in the remaster, and didn't want to play through the "worse" version to get footage
It's not just Wind Waker! The GameCube itself was filled with colorful games that were surprisingly (simple) dark and mature.
In addition to Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, all of Nintendo's first party games were incredibly sinister under the surface, there was Super Mario Sunshine, Animal Crossing, Metroid Prime, Star Fox Adventure, Kirby...uh...
The GameCube is my absolute favorite console for this lurking darkness that permeates nearly every aspect of the console's library.
Pikmin... Nature is cruel and unforgiving.
Pokemon Colosseum and XD: Gale of Darkness, the 2 Sonic Adventure ports...
Give me that air ride lore
As someone who loves to analyse the details behind stories, I am surprised I did not realized the message earlier. Great thanks for the Video!
I think Nintendo may have processed their own aging in that game. I remember the creators of Zelda saying they never wanted an edgy teen-age themed Zelda (and then TP happened). Not only the developers, but also Nintendo itself had to learn that their audience is growing older.
The Irony is, I remember myself not enjoying Nintendo anymore and going to Play-Station and PC Games. Eventually, I truned back to Nintendo just as Link turns back to his Grandmother throughout the game. In the end, children leave but always return back to their parents.
Today however, I am kinda "proud" of my "Nintendo Ancestry", when looking at other Video Game Companies, I am glad my heart is with Nintendo, not Sony or Blizzard.
I think Wind Waker should ahve swapped places with TP. TP would be the edgy remake of OOT holding on old but giving the false impression of maturity, while after TP Zelda DID change a lot. We have Skyward Sword as a new beginning, and then followed by the BOTW Era.
Early 2000 we were not ready to let go of our parental Video Game Company. It would be about 5 years later, just for us to turn back about 20 years later again.
I never even knew you could just leave your grandma. It just never occurred to me to ever just leave her like that. This is gonna be a very interesting watch.
The criticism for the games art style was always a strange thing to me, I realize it was different but i always thought it looked so cool and unique.
I think Grandma is sick and dazed when we're forced to visit her, you can bring her a fairy and if you let it out next to her, the fairy heals her and you get the most OP potion in the game
I have a feeling the loneliness does have something to do with the sickness though
I feel giving the fairy to grandma for soup could fit within the narrative of the video. Healing grandma with a fairy might actually mean something negative; instead of processing and grieving, she's given a 'fake' hope in the form of the fairy, and gives you super strong soup. Giving her the fairy makes Link betray himself; he "artificially" helps her out, and he is rewarded with an item that makes the adventure even more easy, breaking the premise of the "coming of age" trope
Hi Ceave, as always your gameplay analysis is impeccable. I especially love your point about how the strongest part of Zelda is about the adventure and not exploration. I find it hard to imagine that you have not looked into this given your interests but I was very confused to hear you give Aonuma so much credit for the theming. It is fairly well documented in interviews and various resources that Aounuma is the one who focused on dungeons and the big picture whereas Yoshiaki Koizumi is responsible for the gameplay and storytelling. If you have not researched him properly before then I strongly recommend you look into him. He is behind all the games that you lauded and the games he had the most creative control over were Majora's Mask and Mario Galaxy. I don't think you can talk deeply or accurately about post-snes Zelda or Mario without properly understanding Koizumi's influence because it is HUGE.
it's like he misunderstood the story completely but still made a video
how so?
@@purpur9327 The world being plunged into chaos and shit happens at the same time as your grandma becomes sick. The dialogue she gives you where she's afraid of you leaving is her having a bad fever dream and being scared. If you give her a fairy you cure her sickness and she realizes you're there for her and she'll even make you soup. He changed the story but like why??? It was a nice heartwarming story
WOW, that was amazing; I don't know if the Twilight Princess reflected that theme in an interesting way; but it I am going to pretend not for the sake of this idea I had.
The game that would have become twilight princess isn't just dark, it is dark-souls level of dark; fractures of a ruined kingdom from rulers clinging desperately onto power, afraid of letting go of the past, and causing darkness to spread the land (Just like those teenagers that played the windwaker). It maintains the western theme that calls back to the past nostalgically, and places that seem stuck in the past (perhaps that is the main gimmick; a dark world designed to preserve the past, rather than letting it develop). The main antagonist? the corrupted soul of link from the ocarina of time. (his presence in Twilight princess is probably a direct nod to this theme). Perhaps his enlightenment in Majora's mask left behind his own mask; a shell that embodies his power, and his legacy, The fierce deity. It is only due to the royalty of that land's rulers that they clung to that mask; and in the process revived Ganondorf in Link's image. With the power of the Triforce of power, the body of Link, and a dark shadow of the Master sword; the Link of this story must confront and destroy the past, and the rulers and artifacts that maintain it; including the Master sword, and maybe even the Triforce itself in that form.
what do you think?
I can tell in future games, Nintendo was desperately trying not to go back to Hyrule, but fans wouldn't let them move on from the past; they were stuck with their fans' nostalgia. Capitalism demands that market trends are followed, and Nintendo had a dedicated fan-base, but had to appeal to the lowest common denominators in order to appease shareholders, so they couldn't just ignore the fans. Their attempts at recreating the magic was done out of resentment, not genuine creativity; the company was dominated by old men who didn't know anything but the past victories and mistakes (Shigeru Miamoto primarily).
Then Breath of the Wild came along (and later, Tears of the kingdom); with a new approach to game development introducing many young people with new ideas (at least in game-play); but it was also a step back in terms of the legacy of Hyrule. The developers cynically called back to all of their previous work, just like the fans wanted; another story of link overcoming Gannon with the master sword, and saving Zelda. They made the past look futuristic, but nothing has actually changed except superficial things. I think these games are the developers giving up on Zelda as anything other than a commodity to sell to consumers, who won't let them do anything else with the IP; which is why they let the younger generation take a stab at Zelda.
BotW and TotK is a tug of war between nostalgia, and progress; just like the game's themes. We can still feel the resentment from that tug in how they stopped caring about the history and lore of Zelda, beyond reference; it is like the marvel cinematic universe now. To be clear, I don't hate those games, but I think it hates its own existence.
As someone who pre-ordered the GameCube version and has 100% beaten both versions, it has been fascinating to see the change in discourse about the game over time. It went from being the most underhyped and underrated Zelda games to now being overrated.
Thank you so much for this! I was also at that adolescent age when WW released and remembered arguing about the graphics with my friends. I remember the ReDead scaring the shit out of me and that put an end to any thoughts of things being childish. I have only loved it more with every playthrough the older I get. I really appreciate that you drew out the themes of how growing up impacts your family, not just you, which i think really distinguishes WW from the other Zeldas. Link famously has almost no family, or family that dies when he is born; WW was one of the first to give him both a grandmother and a sister. This helps me understand how it remains relevant to me years later.
I hate it when people claim Wind Waker to be "one of the greatest games ever made". Wind Waker is a fine game, but it has many problems. Sailing for 15 minutes at a time before you reach any island and how the game actively punishes you for doing any exploration before the endgame being two of the most obvious reasons. You're also forgetting that the Swift Sail does not exist in Wind Waker. It only exists in the HD remake.
And even after getting this sail it can still take a very long time to get anywhere. With nothing to look at. Nothing to do. DEFINITELY don't check out anything that might appear or you will get punished by wasting even more time because you didn't have a specific item yet.
The game does not "throw many concepts at us in a short amount of time" as you said. Because before you're allowed to get anywhere you have to sit through what basically amounts to a 15 minute loading screen before you are at the next objective. If you want to know why the audience rejected Wind Waker, look less for forum posts about graphics. Forums that only the rich ultra-turbonerds, the 'Simpsons Comic Book Guys' of the real world, had access to back in 2001. Look more towards the faults that the game actually has. Many of them you point out yourself in the video.
Wind Waker is a good enough game. But its absolutely never going to be close to "one of the greatest ever made".
This is a really sad video. It hurts to be this mean, but it really seems like a long-winded version of "this game got me through tough times/this game was my childhood" posts you see online. Which means you only have a vague emotional connection to the game and because of that you have been unable to write a script that is informative and valuable to people who do not share your very specific niche point of view.
Most people will love this video. I think you can do better if you take a step back and take your emotions a bit out of it and look at the game more constructively.
I'd argue this is kind of the point of TH-cam? To express your own opinions about something. Ceave is a very constructive and logical person, but making a video about their own emotional attachment to the game is what the video is partially about. If you want objective analyses of games, this channel isn't exactly about that. At least, I haven't watched them for that reason.
The statement of anything being "the greatest ever made" is something I've never taken to be meant objectively. No one can decide that.
Also, I don't want to be rude, but... This comment feels emotionally charged, too. Calling this video sad implies you're having your own problems with the game that you're reflecting into this comment, the exact criticism you're giving the video.
Let me put it this way: You complain about there being 15 minutes of tedious sailing, but people who enjoy the peace and serenity, or aren't really bothered by finding discoveries they aren't able to interact with yet, won't have the same problem.
I'm getting tangential. In short: This channel is Ceave sharing his perspective. He can be as emotionally charged as he wants, and exaggerated phrases in the video is something not everybody will be bothered by.
EDIT: His final thesis literally says, at the very end, "At least in my humble opinion." He's constantly making it clear this is his opinion.
i realize i’m kind of reiterating the other reply on this comment, but i think the entire point of the video is to share the “niche point of view” you mentioned. it’s not meant to be strictly informative, but rather a showcase of a certain perspective. i’d argue that the video would actually lose its value if it were more objective. the point is to get the viewer to think about the game in a new way. if you don’t end up agreeing, that’s fine. any video claiming to be about the best game of all time is going to be subjective and feelings-based, after all.
also, if you find yourself noticing that your comment is mean (to use your words), maybe step back and think about why you see it that way, and how you could avoid it coming across as mean. ironically, i feel like you could’ve benefitted from framing the comment in a less objective way. it’s completely fair to say “i didn’t like windwaker as much as you did, and here’s why,” but it’s a bit strange to say “your opinion is objectively wrong,” because, well, we’re not dealing with objectivity here, we’re dealing with opinions.
i hope i haven’t been rude or unthinking in my comment, and i do think you raised some good points about the gameplay. hope you’re having a good day my dude
I think you're mostly right about Wind Walker's problems, but I think Ceave is right about why Wind Waker didn't take off immediately; people don't reject games based on flaws that take 10 hours of gameplay to realize, they base them off of what they see when they watch a trailer
This is the game that killed my brother's love for Zelda. He hasn't played a Zelda game since. We saw the commercials and liked the graphics, so he bought the game. I'd go over in the evenings to play. We'd set sail when dinner was ready, controller at our feet while we ate. Any sailing done without a distraction quickly irked us. Although we initially liked the graphics, it became a bit cartoonish. We never finished the game. I just figured this game wasn't meant for the old time players, but was made to bring in a younger fan base. When I heard, years later how loved this game is I looked into what people were saying. That's when I learned they had fixed the sailing issue. Kind of. I do believe this game pulled in the younger generation and kept interest in the Zelda games. I don't care now that this game wasn't for us. Zelda is still relevant and BotW is my favorite Zelda game, next to OoT. Everyone will have their own opinions on each Zelda game. Mine are pretty strong on this one. I'm just glad there will be more games out there to enjoy and I still have my 64 console to enjoy Oot and Majora's Mask on.
Ironic how Nintendo made a game about the importance of trusting your children to build a better future... but Nintendo is also notoriously untrusting, and fights tooth and nail to control everything instead of letting its metaphorical children build the future they want. Instead of working to empower its community, Nintendo typically sends lawyers.
...Well, I mean, the fans kind of shown they couldn't be trusted on building their own future it seems, such as what is talked about in this video and that we know absolutely happened. Twilight Princess is literally right there, the living proof of that.
And then we look at the worst side of them of all, such as **groans** the Smash community right there as found out in Summer 2020. Then there's people making money off of their work, by doing things you pretty much legally cannot. *Points to Yuzu devs*
Do you get it yet?
Nintendo basically hates hardcore gamers, including the ones they grew up with as a company
dang the way you string all these concept together to let us reach the same conclusions is genius.
How is every video this good?! Honestly, thank you for creating such a beautiful work of art
I dont know how fair it is to complain about the fast sail, a Wind Waker HD decision, in a video that talking about how Wind Waker (GC) failed as a result of bad design decisions, especially with all the references to the Space World demo. You cant make a narrative about "Nintendo is tone deaf to what consumers really want" with two seperate games made by different people at different times. Its disengenuous.
In addition, the portion about bad RNG protection, did you ever once think that buying items that cant respawn at the auction house would change the spawn rates of other items? You cant get those sea charts or that heart piece more than once, but you can get the joy pendant as many times as you want. If you bought 3/5 items, wouldnt that make the fast sail have a spawn rate of 50%? Wouldnt that make it a tangible choice, reset to save rupees or spend rupees to save time? Dont you think choices like that are, on some level, good game design because the player is in control of how the situation shakes out?
Another thing, you and i both know WWHD didnt sell that many copies. We both know not that many players experienced the auction house. Pumping up the numbers to make your argument sound better is facetious. I think you might just have a WW hateboner because you were one of those old heads that loved the Space World 2000 demo
(43:34) I'm also kind of surprised he failed to mention Sega's influence as the reason why they had to focus on older kids during the SNES era.
Also for Wind Waker HD, if the Wii U were to (hypothetically) have trophies/achievements, I can also imagine a big percentage of players who have bought the game haven't made it out of Outset Island either.
Never had issues with the graphics, but I feel like I speak for many when I say that the sailing around for Triforce pieces at the end got old quick.
Ganondorf clinging to the memory of the wind he once felt brings out the most important part: the promise flees. The past he wants to go back to is the feeling of Sehnsucht that came with the wind, and he's tried to substitute it with an earthly control. The wind doesn't stay put. You can't find it anywhere on Earth. 'All Joy reminds, it is never a possession, always a desire for something longer ago or further away or still "about to be." - C. S. Lewis, Surprised by Joy
*There's so many immersive elements in this game, even the starting point being his birthday, many kids will get this game on their birthday like me LINKing you too Link from the very start*
What got me hooked was the open world exploration-centric view on gaming in the first and second zelda titles.
More linear games like twilight princess and skyward sword, though beautiful and a compelling story, I found formulaic and tedious.
I felt the exact same way when I first got the Master Sword in this game. Younger me was literally like "time to test out the new toy on some unsuspecting victims." Even in a vacuum without the context of growth that you mentioned, WW probably has my favorite Master Sword moment just by virtue of giving you enemies to beat it up with right out the gate.
Even as a 30+ year old adult I laugh my ass off when I heard that dude say "Sploosh" for the battleship mini game.
Great video. This rings so true. I was also in my teens when it was announced, and like many didn't even give it a chance due to the cartoony graphics. A few years later I picked up a copy from a bargain bin and was overjoyed at how good the combat was in the game.
When the HD remake came out I grabbed it immediately and was shocked that I never noticed the mature themes in the game on my original play through. Truly an epic adventure and way ahead of the next two games that came out after it.
This was an Excellent video Ceave. I thank you for taking the time to put it together. And I never even played this game.