Only cars. Never trucks or SUVs! I'm looking forward to the Z car. Would be nice to see a manual Supra too, see if Toyota changed anything for the better....
@@hardchemist is a tuff choice, as GR86 looks better and most Japanese test drivers including Tuchiya said GR86 is slightly quicker and DK went and bought BRZ. Personally 6k price gouging by Toyota Australia, mean I also bought BRZ and it will arrive in 8 days.
That was informative and helpful. I bought the BRZ but like you (and most people) prefer the Toyota front end styling. My purchase decision came down to the dealership experience. My Toyota dealer had no useful information but Subaru was able to take my order on the spot and give me an estimated delivery. Keep in mind I was ordering in October 2021. This car has generated more discussion and curiosity with other car people that than any car I’ve owned since a 1986 Omni GLHS.
This is the way I’m leaning. The Toyota dealerships I’ve dealt with are crap. The Subaru ones seem much better to deal with. I as there time frame accurate?
@@uba51 My timeframe was accurate. It might have been 3-5 days off but not more than that. Once the VIN was generated I could track the car via Subaru's website.
@@uba51 it was opposite for me. The Subaru dealership wanted 3k-5k markup depending on trim and didn’t want me to pay cash/ was trying to force me into financing. At Toyota the price was what the sticker said and it was pretty much hey if we get one of these we will call you first. They got one and only one lol lucky me.
Since these cars came out all the journalist could talk about was the diff suspensions but no one ever explained who or how they were different. Thanks for this in depth explanation Dan! Great job!
I’ve had my GR86 for months now (after switching from my base model 2020 86). Let me just say, I absolutely looooove the new sporty feel, it’s so spirited in the best way. Never a dull commute, and even more fun on windy roads and hard corners. Such an upgrade compared to the last generation. 100% would recommend to anyone on the fence about it
Yeah, I also like the front looks of the GR better, but the BRZ's smile grew fond inside me after seeing so many pictures. Dealership experience was another big deciding factor. Local Toyota dealers listing 22 GR86 at 43K USD(with no definite delivery date or options I would end up getting) definitely didn't help. In contrast, the local Subaru dealerships had an option to preorder at MSRP. Even my friend that works at one of the local Toyota dealerships said that it would be a much smarter choice to go with Subaru if I could overlook the initial design preferences. Crazy. Now happily awaiting my 23 BRZ to arrive this September.
That far from nerdy. Nerdy would be to take that shock apart, change internal valving, and observe speed vs force damping chart on shock dyno while talking about fluid dynamics 😂 And how important is fast damping
This is one of THE BEST videos I’ve seen. The explanation in plain language allowed me to learn so much more about the HOW the subtle changes add up & what does it actually mean. Bravo!
Fantastic video explaining the differences. I want a BRZ more than I want a Ferrari. Because I wanna mess around with it, upgrade it and learn. And I also really love the philosophy of the car. Naturally aspirated, RWD, manual, lightweight with low center of gravity and balanced weight distribution, + cheap. It hits all the marks of a drivers car.
Love the deep dive thank you for doing this and educating me on the intricacies of suspension tuning. I like that both cars have a slightly different feel. I think it's nice to differentiate between the two makes your choice more impactful.
You NEVER see deep looks into suspension stuff like this (aside from SavageGeese) and it's really cool to see. I've been a car guy my entire life and have spent tons of time looking at and learning about engines, turbos, all the fun power bits but have noticed that finding info about the less sexy bits like suspension and aero is quite a bit harder. Keep this up!!
Great job and review.. wish there were more reviewers that actually knew something more about engineering and didn't focus just on very apparent and obviously visual design.. Thank you for not wasting my time
Enjoyed this deep dive, BUT after a good explanation of how the rear roll bar mounting are different, I was waiting to hear WHY one would do this? Is one mounting style "better" than the other? How do the mounting points affect the ride/handling of each car?
I've heard in a different video that the weight difference was only 4lbs per knuckle. There's no way it's thirteen (even though he did show that # in the vid). Aluminum is 1/3 the weight but half the strength of steel, so they need to use twice as much by volume. So Using aluminum saves 1/3 the weight of a steel component and there is no way those steel knuckles way 40lb each! So the true weight loss is likely 4-6lbs per corner. If someone else knows precisely, please chime in.
I think someone's going to make a lot of money selling aftermarket front bumpers that look more like the GR86's but that are designed to bolt onto the BRZ.
Wow. I really didn’t expect that much difference in the suspension philosophies. I’d love to her them explain why they did what they did. I like more feel so I’d still probably go with the 86, plus looks but both are great I think.
@@nahimgudfam not only is the iron/steel cheaper to replace and less likely to damage, the feel is probably negligible. I don’t see any justification for the complaints.
Your thorough analysis earned you my respect and subscription. I must say though that there's really nothing shocking in there differences. Looking forward to seeing more of your reviews.
I have a premium GR86. It definitely feels stiff. before I bought I test drove the base model about a year ago, I remember it being a bit softer and less road noise. However, I think the ride softened up a little over the 3k miles i've done so far. Or maybe I am used to it. But the PS4 tires on bad roads make a TON of noise. I'd still but it again though
Go meaty on the tire set up more performance and better ride might have to buy smaller wheels tho that or touch the suspension and cut turn in either or
I’ve got a 2020 86 TRD, and it was definitely stiffer (like most cars are) when I first got it. There is break-in on it. Even my friend who rarely rides with me noticed it and mentioned it thinking I had changed the suspension setup.
Great mechanical and technical explanation of the similarities and differences of the two cars! I didn’t know that the two cars were built on the same assembly line and had a lot of similarities except for the rear end suspension. But I did hear someone comment that the GR86 tends to stick it’s rear out a little on the curves, so maybe that why Toyota made the rear suspension more stiff? I was wondering did you make a video of driving the two cars and commenting on your experience driving with them? The GR86 is a great looking sports car & I heard that it’s fun to drive. I would consider it. Thanks again for your informative videos.
Dan......love your videos, always a pleasure when they come out. Could you please dive into the actual Chassis stiffness in your deep dives? Examining the chassis of cars and point out where the engineering design in structural rigidity . Thanks so much
I've always loved Edmunds' suspension explainers and walkarounds from his own website... so glad that we get these on video now from C&D. Interesting RE: the differences. Liked the tuning of the original BRZ versus the GT86 better, as well, and it seems like Subaru have a better handle on the ride/handling balance than Toyota...
Actually it has nothing to do with “having a handle” on anything but rather it is simply a matter of opinion. Subaru decided to tune more conservatively. In other words, towards understeer. And they probably did this for the same reason that virtually all car makers do this and this is because they think it is safer for the average driver - don’t want to get any nasty lawsuits. Toyota on the other hand decide that a car tuned for more neutral or even oversteer would be more fun to drive. It is said that normal drivers fear oversteer and professional race car drivers fear understeer. So, why is this? Well, since the front wheel of a car do the steering, when they break loose (loose grip) there is nothing the driver can do except wait for the tires to regain traction and in the meantime it will just keep heading off in the direction it was going when it lost traction. With oversteer however the rear tires break loose first and since the tires that do the steering still have traction the skid can very easily be controlled. Its just a matter of having the skills to do so. But when an unskilled driver experiences oversteer it is thought that this can potentially lead to a more serious accident then undeersteer would. Or at least this is the opinion of the government and car manufacturers and this can lead to some pretty stupid policies. For example, if I want to buy new tires just for the front of my car the tire shop would put the new tires on the back and move the old ones to the front and then when I got home I would have to change them back myself. As someone who grew up racking cars I know that I want the best tires on the front which does all the steering and 80% of the braking. I’m not worried about oversteer because I can easily control that but if the front wheel loose traction all I can do is keep my fingers crossed. But tires shops don’t want to get sued because a normal driver spins out in the rain and causes an accident due to his rear tires having less tread than the front tires. Of course, if you rotate your tires properly they will wear evenly and you will never have to buy just two at a time.
Aluminum FTW. And my base 23 BRZ is on the path to sub 2730 lbs. So far I deleted trunk tools -15lbs Noble single exit Titanium Catback Exhaust -25 lbs Going to copy TheTopher and do 16” RPF’s with 19 lb Continental ExtremeContact Sports to drop 10 lbs per corner. Stock base 6MT premium Subaru says 2,810 lbs. Others have weighed it less than that. Assuming Subarus stated weight - my reductions = 2,730 lbs. Love it!
Is one on 17s and cheaper tyres and one on 18s with better tyres? Would that explain some of the difference in feel in combination with the different suspension components?
Yes, I think so, but not in the way he described. With more sidewall (45 vs a 40 aspect ratio) available on the smaller-wheeled Toyota you would think has the more supple/forgiving ride. The fact that despite being on "taller" sidewall tires, and it still feels harsher adds to the idea that Toyota has really tuned their suspension for a more firm ride out back. But yeah, he probably should have compared more similar vehicles with same wheel/tire combos on both when talking ride qualities.
Great video. My 23 BRZ feels great as a daily. It’s still very comfortable on long drives. And I just had my first track day and it was an absolute beast on curves and wasn’t too tail happy. It’s the most fun car I’ve ever owned by a landslide.
I'm assuming you have the MT? Curious, what do your normal daily driving mpgs look like? I'm looking at potentially upgrading to one of these for a daily when we're done paying off my wife's Outback XT. Currently in a '10 Corolla S. 35-40mpg but barely any engine power!
@@jface3806 28-29MPG on my daily commute and I'm driving back road and highway. It's more like 19-21mpg if you are doing sportier driving on hills and curves. The Toyota gear box compliments the boxer engine. You can easily overtake in 5th gear on flat road without having to downshift. Very fun car and a really great price. But also remember its 93 octane so its a little more expensive on fuel and oil changes should really be at 3k not 6k on this car. You can always mod your Corolla to get a little extra power. Some headers and intake care bump you up 40hp.
The most shocking difference is the double sided tape that holds the badge on, it's shockingly a different shape. Edit, nice video, I take my hat off to you.
would be great to hear your take on why Subaru decided to mount the rear sway bar to the chassis rather than just do the carryover design that Toyota retained, great vid tho, best so far on differences.
Subaru switched to doing it for every car on their new platform (this BRZ obviously isn't on that platform). It makes me wonder if on this car it was a stubborn decision or maybe for familiarity for their chassis engineers during tuning.
@@vipermoon_ I can't say for sure, but they also made a choice (less dramatic than this gen) on the older generation to have the BRZ behave a bit more like the rest of their lineup, so more induced understeering compared to their Toyota counterpart. My guess would be that's it's still the case for this gen and their product in general.
this reminds me of the 86 Levin and Tureno the suspensions were different and the nose. One had a rally type suspension set up the other a more sporty (dare i say track type suspension) if memory serves
Great comprehensive video. So much better than all the nonsense about GR wanting something more tack-focused that is parroted from one outlet to another. I think you said it best when you mentioned that it is more of a difference in opinion between the two manufacturers.
I'm not sure if this can be easily done in a driveway but diving into the alignment differences as well would give more understanding on the handling differences between the two.
Superb video! Extremely educational yet concise. I wish you had shown your math for your calculations regarding the front suspension. Even a photo of the equations you used would have been helpful. Thank you!
I'm curious to find out if front and rear brake calipers are cast iron or aluminum, my Impreza has aluminum rear calipers and aluminum front hub, the rest is steel (cast iron )
This is the best video I have seen on the difference. I bought the BRZ and don’t regret it at all. When the PS4s wear out definitely getting some Continental Extreme Contacts. I have those on my 2019 BRZ and so much quieter!
thank you very much for making this video. can you do a similar one on the audi 13 and volkswagon golf? and the acura integra vs honda civic si? maybe the kia forte gt vs hyundai elantra n-line as well?
Thanks so much for the deep dive. I’ve been contemplating purchasing one of these two cars for almost 8 months now, I might take the plunge soon. It’s funny, I keep going back and forth on my preference for their appearance. I originally preferred the GR but overtime I warmed up to the BRZ more. It’s funny how a new car’s design can take a while to be accepted. Personally, I think they both did a very nice job. I’ve had a positive experience with both the Toyota and Subaru dealers, I think this really varies a lot based on your sales person and the dealership’s culture. Both can be good and both can be bad. There’s another Subaru dealer in my area that won’t sell a car without mandatory warranties and other garbage tacked onto your bill of sale. I just avoid them and take my business to a dealership that does business the right way.
13 pounds per side for the aluminum knuckles on the BRZ is a significant amount of unsprung mass savings. I wonder if GR86 owners will swap these parts on in the pursuit of performance and weight reduction.
Thanks for the video. Interesting to know what the suspension differences are, and how they affect the feel of the cars. I'd been assuming that the only differences were the badges and grilles.
Are the rim sizes the same? Those look like 18s on the brz. I believe they use the better tire. The gr86 is the base and has the 17s with not so great tires. Are they apples to apples? Grant suspension is different, but tires can make a big difference in ride and handling. Just curious.
No and this is where I think this review kinda “fails”. The gr86 is a base (aka 17 inch wheels) and the brz is a limited (aka 18 inch wheels). And both got different tires too so I’m thinking both the tires and rims have a big affect on their differences so he should’ve tried to compare a base to a base (or a limited to a limited).
Hey Dan, thank you for the excellent review. I’ve heard others talk about the differences but I wasn’t able to truly visualize it. Maybe it’s the kid in me, but I’m happy it feels a little more rough/unrefined. But in all honesty, I couldn’t feel a difference driving an acquaintance’s brz. But like you said it was on a spirited drive and they felt very equal in that regard. Thanks again for an excellent explanation.
Daily driven old 86 with shorter stiffer springs for year or two. Hard but not necessarily harsh. Eventually started to have some neck pains from it. Now im floating on cit c5 😂🖕🇪🇸🇺🇦
Would you buy that properly spec version if it costed close to a supra? Try and add 10.000$ to the price of the GR86 and see what other nice things that suddenly would be available.
Thanks Dan, your suspension deep dives have been a treat for many many years! Glad you still have a place to release them, and this is great info. for the soon-to-be-big 2nd gen 86 enthusiast community.
I'd take either one, even with the differences. I think I like the BRZ front end a bit better, and of course I'd prefer WR Blue. But when I bought my '16 FR-S new in Ultramarine I had zero regrets. (Toyota gave me 0% for 5 years - sold). Wanted more power and space, got a '20 STI (WRB finally), but damn I miss RWD and that sweet shifter and steering.
@@chrisx5127 hard to say for sure, but in some ways yes. The FRS feels like a sports car while WRX/STI feels more like the upgraded economy sedan it is. FR-S is also like 700 lbs lighter and you feel that too. Plus, RWD is the most fun drive layout a car can have. The more power in the STI is definitely noticeable though, and that's its own kind of fun. Plus the burble. Plus, women like the bigger car better.
@@nthgth Wait, so you are saying my dream affordable vehicle (2016 WRX) is less fun to drive than a RWD 2016 BRZ/FRS? BRZ was next, but WRX was my #1 choice back in 2016. Interesting. I never had a sport car, so I don't know. I plan on getting a Miata or a BRZ/GR86 in manual transmission. I thought the WRX was like the most fun to drive based on TH-cam video. Hearing that the BRZ was slower made my decision easier, but now I'm not sure.
Terrific video Dan! The changes all make sense in terms of the resulting driving xp. I idly wonder how much of the difference (specifically wheel weight+around town manners) can be attributed to the different tires - which is basically a consumable and becomes a non-factor when its time to replace. The BRZ's slight reduction in unsprung weight probably contributes to its better ride in town. The sway bars and spring rates are naturally the reason why the GR is more prone to oversteer.
This was excellent! Thank you! I like this level of detail and explanation and as I've been back and forth on these two cars, it's great to get this perspective! Interesting how the unsprung weight at the front would be lower in the BRZ due to the aluminum. I am curious to know more about your perspective on the overall understeer / oversteer characteristics when approaching the limit that seems to catch people off guard in the new BRZ. Any feedback on that?
Thank you for taking the time to demonstrate the differences through this detailed analysis. You are top tier as a content provider in this industry. Thank you, again.
Interesting to see how different they chose to go :-) On my 2013 GT86 I have bushing lockouts on the rear subframe installed. Makes a whole lot of difference. Negative in terms of harshness over short bumps, but even more so positive in fast Autobahn sweeps. Takes a lot of correction effort out of the steering.
@@Angry-Lynx that they decided to change more parts than just the springs to achieve a different setup the same platform. Usually car makers tend to avoid every extra penny so I was surprised they developed different subframes, anti roll bars and front knuckles as well.
Just came across this, looking into getting an 86. Now to find out if that 26lbs of iron can be swapped out to the aluminum pieces without any negative impact...
When you own a 2022+ BRZ you pretty quickly start to like the front of it better than the GR86 because I hear a lot of people loving it after owning it for some time. I do have my grill being changed that will look more like the GR86 type though as I got so many leaves stuck inside and I hate having to remove the bumper since I can’t put my whole hand through the grill
So I am quite curious about the steel vs. aluminum front steering knuckle, so BRZ went with lighter aluminum and GR86 is steel. However is there anything else other than the cost of this decision? For the year 2024, the BRZ will have a TS version with a performance package (larger Brembo brake and Sachs dampers). From what I have heard, the most surprising is the BRZ Ts went back to a steel steering knuckle, while normal BRZ is aluminum, so this got me quite confusesd.
I wish the twins got better mpg. My commute is 34 miles one way and soon will be 5 days a week. I'd love to daily either of these but with expensive gas, I just need a bit more efficiency.
I commute mixed driving in my `23 BRZ and get a consistent 24mpg, even with some heavy feet here and there. Not the best, but not the worst. My old Fiesta ST got 26/27.
Great video, what is the theoretical result of the subframe difference? Intuitively it seems like this would stiffen the rear of the subaru, but I'm not sure if that's correct or by how much?
I'd think the GR86's setup would let the bushing absorb some tire noise (what amount of it gets into the sway bar) that, in the Subaru, would be transmitted right up through that bolt into the chassis. Just spitballing.
to me, it looks like it alters the position of the roll bar which will affect how it responds. either way we have to wait and see which subframe the big time tuners will use because they are the ones that actually can notice the difference.
This is refreshing content in a TH-cam car world full of pure attention seekers with little valuable substance. Thanks for making genuine intelligent content.
What other cars, trucks, and SUVs would you like to see in Dan's driveway? Also check his channel for similar videos: th-cam.com/users/DanEdmunds
Carrera S vs GTS. Interested to see GTS's helper spring and other detailed changes.
Only cars. Never trucks or SUVs! I'm looking forward to the Z car. Would be nice to see a manual Supra too, see if Toyota changed anything for the better....
Obviously Supra and Z4
MX-5 Sport RF vs MX-5 Grand Touring RF.
Any ride/handling differences there ?
Thank you.
2021 wrx vs 2022 wrx
This is the most thorough explanation I've seen on the suspension differences, thank you!
I agree !
^^^
Seriously good work here guys. Thank you!
Definitely and it reinforced my decision to go with the BRZ
@@hardchemist is a tuff choice, as GR86 looks better and most Japanese test drivers including Tuchiya said GR86 is slightly quicker and DK went and bought BRZ. Personally 6k price gouging by Toyota Australia, mean I also bought BRZ and it will arrive in 8 days.
That was informative and helpful. I bought the BRZ but like you (and most people) prefer the Toyota front end styling. My purchase decision came down to the dealership experience. My Toyota dealer had no useful information but Subaru was able to take my order on the spot and give me an estimated delivery. Keep in mind I was ordering in October 2021. This car has generated more discussion and curiosity with other car people that than any car I’ve owned since a 1986 Omni GLHS.
This is the way I’m leaning. The Toyota dealerships I’ve dealt with are crap. The Subaru ones seem much better to deal with. I as there time frame accurate?
@@uba51 My timeframe was accurate. It might have been 3-5 days off but not more than that. Once the VIN was generated I could track the car via Subaru's website.
@@aroundomaha Thanks man. I’m think I’m going with the Subaru based on exactly what you said. It’s crazy.
@@uba51 No worries glad to help. Happy to answer any questions.
@@uba51 it was opposite for me. The Subaru dealership wanted 3k-5k markup depending on trim and didn’t want me to pay cash/ was trying to force me into financing. At Toyota the price was what the sticker said and it was pretty much hey if we get one of these we will call you first. They got one and only one lol lucky me.
Since these cars came out all the journalist could talk about was the diff suspensions but no one ever explained who or how they were different.
Thanks for this in depth explanation Dan! Great job!
I’ve had my GR86 for months now (after switching from my base model 2020 86). Let me just say, I absolutely looooove the new sporty feel, it’s so spirited in the best way. Never a dull commute, and even more fun on windy roads and hard corners. Such an upgrade compared to the last generation. 100% would recommend to anyone on the fence about it
Spunky 💀
@@louisemmett1999 well it’s not fast.. idk, but better than the old gen
@@Fatima-ni8iw no I think they’re great cars too and agree with your point, spunky means Semen/sperm in British English slang haha
I still want the Miata more.
@@louisemmett1999I was thinking the same thing 😂
Yeah, I also like the front looks of the GR better, but the BRZ's smile grew fond inside me after seeing so many pictures. Dealership experience was another big deciding factor. Local Toyota dealers listing 22 GR86 at 43K USD(with no definite delivery date or options I would end up getting) definitely didn't help. In contrast, the local Subaru dealerships had an option to preorder at MSRP. Even my friend that works at one of the local Toyota dealerships said that it would be a much smarter choice to go with Subaru if I could overlook the initial design preferences. Crazy. Now happily awaiting my 23 BRZ to arrive this September.
Fingers crossed that those Toyota dealerships have gone out of business in the last 5 months 🤞
I watch so many TH-cam videos about cars. Dan Edmunds is the only one I know, who does suspension deep dive.
Savage geese?
Grassroots Motorsports?
@savagegeese some cool info here
you don’t watch the right TH-cam channels if you think this was a good suspension deep dive… lmao
How many is “many” by your definition? You clearly haven’t watch the channels stated in this comment chain. 🤔
I love how nerdy this is.
I need more content like this!
Thank you so much for making this
That far from nerdy.
Nerdy would be to take that shock apart, change internal valving, and observe speed vs force damping chart on shock dyno while talking about fluid dynamics 😂
And how important is fast damping
This is one of THE BEST videos I’ve seen. The explanation in plain language allowed me to learn so much more about the HOW the subtle changes add up & what does it actually mean. Bravo!
Fantastic video explaining the differences.
I want a BRZ more than I want a Ferrari. Because I wanna mess around with it, upgrade it and learn.
And I also really love the philosophy of the car. Naturally aspirated, RWD, manual, lightweight with low center of gravity and balanced weight distribution, + cheap. It hits all the marks of a drivers car.
Having driven the 86/BRZ, get a Miata. You can’t really tell from reviews, but from driving the cars the Miata is way more of a playful car
Having driven miata and 86, 86 feels like luxury car compared with cheapest fiat
I also prefer the BRZ/86 over a Ferrari. It’s more appealing, it’s a manual, I feel more connected to it than to an artificial and synthetic supercar.
@Thor Odin son sr3 radical are garbage, get ferrari enzo
@@Angry-Lynx nah... get a second hand M140i
Love the deep dive thank you for doing this and educating me on the intricacies of suspension tuning. I like that both cars have a slightly different feel. I think it's nice to differentiate between the two makes your choice more impactful.
I love these deep dives. It’s so amazing to hear this stuff from a real expert and not a manufacturer. Thanks!!!
You NEVER see deep looks into suspension stuff like this (aside from SavageGeese) and it's really cool to see. I've been a car guy my entire life and have spent tons of time looking at and learning about engines, turbos, all the fun power bits but have noticed that finding info about the less sexy bits like suspension and aero is quite a bit harder. Keep this up!!
Great job and review.. wish there were more reviewers that actually knew something more about engineering and didn't focus just on very apparent and obviously visual design.. Thank you for not wasting my time
Enjoyed this deep dive, BUT after a good explanation of how the rear roll bar mounting are different, I was waiting to hear WHY one would do this? Is one mounting style "better" than the other? How do the mounting points affect the ride/handling of each car?
Completely agree. Which is why I'm now off to perform a search to satiate my curiosity.
@@ImUrOBGYN let us know what ya find
@@ImUrOBGYN how’d it go?
12KG lighter front suspension due to knuckles is amazing. Worthwhile upgrade for serious GR86 owners.
13 pounds (5.9kg), not kilograms. Nevertheless, definitely awesome. Time stamp in video: 4:05
@@maikeru1990 Yes 6+6=12
I've heard in a different video that the weight difference was only 4lbs per knuckle. There's no way it's thirteen (even though he did show that # in the vid). Aluminum is 1/3 the weight but half the strength of steel, so they need to use twice as much by volume. So Using aluminum saves 1/3 the weight of a steel component and there is no way those steel knuckles way 40lb each! So the true weight loss is likely 4-6lbs per corner. If someone else knows precisely, please chime in.
What you're saying is that GR86 owners should upgrade to BRZ parts 😁😅
Surprised at the differences... it's actually nice to see they are not just clones of each other, and each brand took their own approach.
23BRZ owner from Japan here. lovely shots of all the internals! very well done! great information! beautiful car(s)!
Brilliant video. I bought the brz and am glad to have the softer, more comfortable of the two. It rides great.
I kept my 17 Camry rides even better and no payments
Great comparison 😂👍🖕🇵🇱
First car I bought in the US was 1994 Civic EX VTEC. Little thing had double wishbone suspension both front and rear. I miss that little car
I think someone's going to make a lot of money selling aftermarket front bumpers that look more like the GR86's but that are designed to bolt onto the BRZ.
Simple yet effective way of making the differentiation between the two. Thanks.
Edmunds reviewing suspension in a video..... this is great. So good!
Love how you demonstrate the stiff body structure…😊…excellent technical reviews on the suspension differences👍
Wow. I really didn’t expect that much difference in the suspension philosophies. I’d love to her them explain why they did what they did. I like more feel so I’d still probably go with the 86, plus looks but both are great I think.
according to Toyota, they say their boss prefers the steering feedback from the steel one than the aluminum one and he likes drifting.
Haha what a bs, he loves the .0001cent more he earns on each car by using cheapass material
Typical f***ing toyota, despise that company with passion
@@Angry-Lynx wouldn't the steel one be more durable?
@@nahimgudfam not only is the iron/steel cheaper to replace and less likely to damage, the feel is probably negligible. I don’t see any justification for the complaints.
Your thorough analysis earned you my respect and subscription.
I must say though that there's really nothing shocking in there differences.
Looking forward to seeing more of your reviews.
I have a premium GR86. It definitely feels stiff. before I bought I test drove the base model about a year ago, I remember it being a bit softer and less road noise. However, I think the ride softened up a little over the 3k miles i've done so far. Or maybe I am used to it. But the PS4 tires on bad roads make a TON of noise. I'd still but it again though
Go meaty on the tire set up more performance and better ride might have to buy smaller wheels tho that or touch the suspension and cut turn in either or
I’ve got a 2020 86 TRD, and it was definitely stiffer (like most cars are) when I first got it. There is break-in on it. Even my friend who rarely rides with me noticed it and mentioned it thinking I had changed the suspension setup.
Different tires or even better, noise cancelling headphones, but in the sport car that kinda kills the purpose 😂🖕
Get XBox One tires then, smh
Great mechanical and technical explanation of the similarities and differences of the two cars! I didn’t know that the two cars were built on the same assembly line and had a lot of similarities except for the rear end suspension. But I did hear someone comment that the GR86 tends to stick it’s rear out a little on the curves, so maybe that why Toyota made the rear suspension more stiff? I was wondering did you make a video of driving the two cars and commenting on your experience driving with them? The GR86 is a great looking sports car & I heard that it’s fun to drive. I would consider it. Thanks again for your informative videos.
Dan......love your videos, always a pleasure when they come out.
Could you please dive into the actual Chassis stiffness in your deep dives? Examining the chassis of cars and point out where the engineering design in structural rigidity .
Thanks so much
Awesome video. I already own a brz but seeing the differences rather than reading them on a spec sheet is good. 👍
❤️ this level of technical analysis. More pls!
This was great! Would love more content like this.
I've always loved Edmunds' suspension explainers and walkarounds from his own website... so glad that we get these on video now from C&D.
Interesting RE: the differences. Liked the tuning of the original BRZ versus the GT86 better, as well, and it seems like Subaru have a better handle on the ride/handling balance than Toyota...
Actually it has nothing to do with “having a handle” on anything but rather it is simply a matter of opinion. Subaru decided to tune more conservatively. In other words, towards understeer. And they probably did this for the same reason that virtually all car makers do this and this is because they think it is safer for the average driver - don’t want to get any nasty lawsuits. Toyota on the other hand decide that a car tuned for more neutral or even oversteer would be more fun to drive. It is said that normal drivers fear oversteer and professional race car drivers fear understeer. So, why is this? Well, since the front wheel of a car do the steering, when they break loose (loose grip) there is nothing the driver can do except wait for the tires to regain traction and in the meantime it will just keep heading off in the direction it was going when it lost traction. With oversteer however the rear tires break loose first and since the tires that do the steering still have traction the skid can very easily be controlled. Its just a matter of having the skills to do so. But when an unskilled driver experiences oversteer it is thought that this can potentially lead to a more serious accident then undeersteer would. Or at least this is the opinion of the government and car manufacturers and this can lead to some pretty stupid policies. For example, if I want to buy new tires just for the front of my car the tire shop would put the new tires on the back and move the old ones to the front and then when I got home I would have to change them back myself. As someone who grew up racking cars I know that I want the best tires on the front which does all the steering and 80% of the braking. I’m not worried about oversteer because I can easily control that but if the front wheel loose traction all I can do is keep my fingers crossed. But tires shops don’t want to get sued because a normal driver spins out in the rain and causes an accident due to his rear tires having less tread than the front tires. Of course, if you rotate your tires properly they will wear evenly and you will never have to buy just two at a time.
This was a great write up, oration, review, and visual showcase. Very impressed! Top marks, thank you!
I can't believe they actually put the L arm facing the right way. (rarely do car companies do that) Whoever was in charge of that made a good call.
Brilliant, thank you. We ordered the GR 86 here in Australia. To my knowledge, the rear on the Toyota is specified for a bit more oversteer.
Aluminum FTW. And my base 23 BRZ is on the path to sub 2730 lbs.
So far I deleted trunk tools -15lbs
Noble single exit Titanium Catback Exhaust -25 lbs
Going to copy TheTopher and do 16” RPF’s with 19 lb Continental ExtremeContact Sports to drop 10 lbs per corner.
Stock base 6MT premium Subaru says 2,810 lbs. Others have weighed it less than that. Assuming Subarus stated weight - my reductions = 2,730 lbs. Love it!
Underrated comment. Weight, it being sprung or unsprung mass is everything.
Dan, excellent video and explanation. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Great video. I like the way how he explained both suspension systems. He is professional 👍🏼
Is one on 17s and cheaper tyres and one on 18s with better tyres? Would that explain some of the difference in feel in combination with the different suspension components?
Yes, I think so, but not in the way he described. With more sidewall (45 vs a 40 aspect ratio) available on the smaller-wheeled Toyota you would think has the more supple/forgiving ride. The fact that despite being on "taller" sidewall tires, and it still feels harsher adds to the idea that Toyota has really tuned their suspension for a more firm ride out back. But yeah, he probably should have compared more similar vehicles with same wheel/tire combos on both when talking ride qualities.
Great video. My 23 BRZ feels great as a daily. It’s still very comfortable on long drives. And I just had my first track day and it was an absolute beast on curves and wasn’t too tail happy. It’s the most fun car I’ve ever owned by a landslide.
I'm assuming you have the MT? Curious, what do your normal daily driving mpgs look like? I'm looking at potentially upgrading to one of these for a daily when we're done paying off my wife's Outback XT. Currently in a '10 Corolla S. 35-40mpg but barely any engine power!
@@jface3806 28-29MPG on my daily commute and I'm driving back road and highway. It's more like 19-21mpg if you are doing sportier driving on hills and curves. The Toyota gear box compliments the boxer engine. You can easily overtake in 5th gear on flat road without having to downshift. Very fun car and a really great price. But also remember its 93 octane so its a little more expensive on fuel and oil changes should really be at 3k not 6k on this car. You can always mod your Corolla to get a little extra power. Some headers and intake care bump you up 40hp.
@@liftgameyeetrepeat5883 good stuff to think about and run numbers in my head for a while. Thanks!
That really was shocking, I dont know if I will be able to sleep. But, jokes aside you did manage to change my mind, I now prefer the subaru.
This is the most needed information that I've been looking for all over the internet. And Thank you C&D for making it free to watch.
The most shocking difference is the double sided tape that holds the badge on, it's shockingly a different shape.
Edit, nice video, I take my hat off to you.
Bravo.. love to see such detailed video about the mechanical layout 😍
Like you, I go for the BRZ in the looks category (specifically, the front...like you said).
would be great to hear your take on why Subaru decided to mount the rear sway bar to the chassis rather than just do the carryover design that Toyota retained, great vid tho, best so far on differences.
Subaru switched to doing it for every car on their new platform (this BRZ obviously isn't on that platform). It makes me wonder if on this car it was a stubborn decision or maybe for familiarity for their chassis engineers during tuning.
@@vipermoon_ I can't say for sure, but they also made a choice (less dramatic than this gen) on the older generation to have the BRZ behave a bit more like the rest of their lineup, so more induced understeering compared to their Toyota counterpart. My guess would be that's it's still the case for this gen and their product in general.
this reminds me of the 86 Levin and Tureno the suspensions were different and the nose. One had a rally type suspension set up the other a more sporty (dare i say track type suspension) if memory serves
Great comprehensive video. So much better than all the nonsense about GR wanting something more tack-focused that is parroted from one outlet to another. I think you said it best when you mentioned that it is more of a difference in opinion between the two manufacturers.
I'm not sure if this can be easily done in a driveway but diving into the alignment differences as well would give more understanding on the handling differences between the two.
Fascinating and ultra informative breakdown of the differences! never seen anyone else go so thoroughly into this... great work bro!
This is awesome. Even more in depth than SavageGeese!
This was honestly such a fantastic review. Thank you so much for going into such great detail
Superior suspension is the one that can do both, be supple around town but can carve corners when pushed..
Superb video! Extremely educational yet concise. I wish you had shown your math for your calculations regarding the front suspension. Even a photo of the equations you used would have been helpful. Thank you!
I'm curious to find out if front and rear brake calipers are cast iron or aluminum, my Impreza has aluminum rear calipers and aluminum front hub, the rest is steel (cast iron )
Thank you for the detailed breakdown!
This is the best video I have seen on the difference. I bought the BRZ and don’t regret it at all. When the PS4s wear out definitely getting some Continental Extreme Contacts. I have those on my 2019 BRZ and so much quieter!
thank you very much for making this video. can you do a similar one on the audi 13 and volkswagon golf?
and the acura integra vs honda civic si? maybe the kia forte gt vs hyundai elantra n-line as well?
This is awesome. It's like Gazoo Racing's suspension team vs. Subaru's suspension department.
Thanks so much for the deep dive. I’ve been contemplating purchasing one of these two cars for almost 8 months now, I might take the plunge soon. It’s funny, I keep going back and forth on my preference for their appearance. I originally preferred the GR but overtime I warmed up to the BRZ more. It’s funny how a new car’s design can take a while to be accepted. Personally, I think they both did a very nice job. I’ve had a positive experience with both the Toyota and Subaru dealers, I think this really varies a lot based on your sales person and the dealership’s culture. Both can be good and both can be bad. There’s another Subaru dealer in my area that won’t sell a car without mandatory warranties and other garbage tacked onto your bill of sale. I just avoid them and take my business to a dealership that does business the right way.
Toyota costs more in Canada and has worse rates if that matters to you as well.
Not affected by prices crisis huh
13 pounds per side for the aluminum knuckles on the BRZ is a significant amount of unsprung mass savings. I wonder if GR86 owners will swap these parts on in the pursuit of performance and weight reduction.
This is a very professional video, well done and thanks
This is some serious quality content! Thank you very much! Love it!
Were they manufactured on the same month? Could it be a change on the production’s parts?
Maybe do a deep dive into how hard it is to buy a GR86 vs BRZ.
Thanks for the video. Interesting to know what the suspension differences are, and how they affect the feel of the cars. I'd been assuming that the only differences were the badges and grilles.
Love it.
Can you also share the same detail on the driving experience (,manual gear shifts) please
Are the rim sizes the same? Those look like 18s on the brz. I believe they use the better tire. The gr86 is the base and has the 17s with not so great tires. Are they apples to apples? Grant suspension is different, but tires can make a big difference in ride and handling. Just curious.
No and this is where I think this review kinda “fails”. The gr86 is a base (aka 17 inch wheels) and the brz is a limited (aka 18 inch wheels). And both got different tires too so I’m thinking both the tires and rims have a big affect on their differences so he should’ve tried to compare a base to a base (or a limited to a limited).
Hey Dan, thank you for the excellent review. I’ve heard others talk about the differences but I wasn’t able to truly visualize it. Maybe it’s the kid in me, but I’m happy it feels a little more rough/unrefined. But in all honesty, I couldn’t feel a difference driving an acquaintance’s brz. But like you said it was on a spirited drive and they felt very equal in that regard. Thanks again for an excellent explanation.
Daily driven old 86 with shorter stiffer springs for year or two. Hard but not necessarily harsh. Eventually started to have some neck pains from it.
Now im floating on cit c5 😂🖕🇪🇸🇺🇦
How many years do wait out for Toyota to properly spec one with Brembo 4 pistons, Ohlins or Sachs, forged wheels, Ti exhaust and Recaro CS seats.
Would you buy that properly spec version if it costed close to a supra?
Try and add 10.000$ to the price of the GR86 and see what other nice things that suddenly would be available.
Great analysis without making it too wordy. Good job!
BEST BRZ/GR86 TH-cam Comparo video!!!!
Thanks Dan, your suspension deep dives have been a treat for many many years! Glad you still have a place to release them, and this is great info. for the soon-to-be-big 2nd gen 86 enthusiast community.
Very cool. Had no idea of the differences. Besides cost, I wonder what the difference means in driving dynamics and longer term reliability.
I'd take either one, even with the differences. I think I like the BRZ front end a bit better, and of course I'd prefer WR Blue. But when I bought my '16 FR-S new in Ultramarine I had zero regrets.
(Toyota gave me 0% for 5 years - sold).
Wanted more power and space, got a '20 STI (WRB finally), but damn I miss RWD and that sweet shifter and steering.
Is FRS funner to drive than WRX?
@@chrisx5127 hard to say for sure, but in some ways yes. The FRS feels like a sports car while WRX/STI feels more like the upgraded economy sedan it is. FR-S is also like 700 lbs lighter and you feel that too. Plus, RWD is the most fun drive layout a car can have.
The more power in the STI is definitely noticeable though, and that's its own kind of fun. Plus the burble.
Plus, women like the bigger car better.
@@nthgth Wait, so you are saying my dream affordable vehicle (2016 WRX) is less fun to drive than a RWD 2016 BRZ/FRS? BRZ was next, but WRX was my #1 choice back in 2016. Interesting. I never had a sport car, so I don't know. I plan on getting a Miata or a BRZ/GR86 in manual transmission. I thought the WRX was like the most fun to drive based on TH-cam video. Hearing that the BRZ was slower made my decision easier, but now I'm not sure.
Great video, amazing explanation, but why is the production quality so low, especially from a vaunted name like Car&Driver?
Do the different style of rear swaybar mount make any difference?
Terrific video Dan! The changes all make sense in terms of the resulting driving xp. I idly wonder how much of the difference (specifically wheel weight+around town manners) can be attributed to the different tires - which is basically a consumable and becomes a non-factor when its time to replace. The BRZ's slight reduction in unsprung weight probably contributes to its better ride in town. The sway bars and spring rates are naturally the reason why the GR is more prone to oversteer.
Fantastic video, thanks!!! I appreciate my 2023 BRZ even more now 🤙
This was excellent! Thank you! I like this level of detail and explanation and as I've been back and forth on these two cars, it's great to get this perspective! Interesting how the unsprung weight at the front would be lower in the BRZ due to the aluminum. I am curious to know more about your perspective on the overall understeer / oversteer characteristics when approaching the limit that seems to catch people off guard in the new BRZ. Any feedback on that?
I would like to buy, can you advise me which one is better Subaru or Toyota? Thank you
Thank you for taking the time to demonstrate the differences through this detailed analysis. You are top tier as a content provider in this industry. Thank you, again.
It's very interesting to see how the brz flavors power off oversteer and the gr favors power on. BRZ might be faster, FRS probably is easier to catch.
What's the old adage? "Stiffen the end you want to slide first?"
great content. i like how you do this kind of video. very informative.
It’s not a completely different rear subframe. And the cost for the welded on sway bar bracket vs. the bolted on would be very similar if no the same.
Ye that shit doesn't matter, just some stubborn engineer just had to have it "his way" , and now hundreds ar wondering why 😂🇺🇦🇪🇸🇵🇱
It is two different rear subframes that the assembly plant has to manage.
Fantastic comparison. Love these videos.
very helpful and informative best review yet thank you
Interesting to see how different they chose to go :-) On my 2013 GT86 I have bushing lockouts on the rear subframe installed. Makes a whole lot of difference. Negative in terms of harshness over short bumps, but even more so positive in fast Autobahn sweeps. Takes a lot of correction effort out of the steering.
Difference compared to what ?
@@Angry-Lynx that they decided to change more parts than just the springs to achieve a different setup the same platform. Usually car makers tend to avoid every extra penny so I was surprised they developed different subframes, anti roll bars and front knuckles as well.
Just came across this, looking into getting an 86. Now to find out if that 26lbs of iron can be swapped out to the aluminum pieces without any negative impact...
Could those differences also come form the Base vs Premium model?
Much prefer the GR86 suspension and its more oversteer prone nature. Much more fun
The ride is great on my BRZ but the tires on the 17s impact some of the handling. That does make it more fun when pushing it.
When you own a 2022+ BRZ you pretty quickly start to like the front of it better than the GR86 because I hear a lot of people loving it after owning it for some time. I do have my grill being changed that will look more like the GR86 type though as I got so many leaves stuck inside and I hate having to remove the bumper since I can’t put my whole hand through the grill
So I am quite curious about the steel vs. aluminum front steering knuckle, so BRZ went with lighter aluminum and GR86 is steel. However is there anything else other than the cost of this decision? For the year 2024, the BRZ will have a TS version with a performance package (larger Brembo brake and Sachs dampers). From what I have heard, the most surprising is the BRZ Ts went back to a steel steering knuckle, while normal BRZ is aluminum, so this got me quite confusesd.
I wish the twins got better mpg. My commute is 34 miles one way and soon will be 5 days a week. I'd love to daily either of these but with expensive gas, I just need a bit more efficiency.
I commute mixed driving in my `23 BRZ and get a consistent 24mpg, even with some heavy feet here and there. Not the best, but not the worst. My old Fiesta ST got 26/27.
Ooh? Never considered if they'd use a different set up thank you for clarifying good sir
On BRZ, if the forces are transmitted directly via the bolt without any bushing, will it promote/accelerate the failure of the bolt?
Such an amazing review, thank you sir.
Great video, what is the theoretical result of the subframe difference? Intuitively it seems like this would stiffen the rear of the subaru, but I'm not sure if that's correct or by how much?
None. At least not felt
I'd think the GR86's setup would let the bushing absorb some tire noise (what amount of it gets into the sway bar) that, in the Subaru, would be transmitted right up through that bolt into the chassis.
Just spitballing.
to me, it looks like it alters the position of the roll bar which will affect how it responds. either way we have to wait and see which subframe the big time tuners will use because they are the ones that actually can notice the difference.
This is refreshing content in a TH-cam car world full of pure attention seekers with little valuable substance. Thanks for making genuine intelligent content.
Awesome review and explanation. Thank you