Sway Bar Theory with Keith Tanner (FM Live)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- This week on our live video, Keith broadcasts from home to give us some knowledge about sway bars! Why do they exist? What do they do?
Sway Bars at Flyin' Miata:
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Keith, I really appreciate these 'home' videos your are posting. Great content - well done for sharing all your knowledge. More please.....
Glad you're enjoying them! If there's a particular subject you want to see covered, we're always looking for suggestions.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Hi, did you talk about chassis stiffness already? i'd be interested to hear your opinion/ knowledge about nvh and stiffness
@@IBmotive We've talked about some of the various chassis stiffeners, but nothing general on stiffness. The short version is "stiffer is better in any way other than having an accident".
@@FlyinMiataVideo Thank you for the advise and videos! Just one question, if for ND Miata I add strong front shock tower brace and rear shock tower brace, without any additional underbody brace, is this good or bad (since maybe the twisting force all go to the middle now?) Would like to hear your opinion, thank you!
@@peterc.4638 Note that rear shock tower braces don't really do anything on Miatas, as they're tied into a very structurally strong part of the car. The story is much different for hatchbacks with strut suspension.
Stiffening the floppy parts of the car should allow the suspension to take care of loads more instead of twisting the chassis. That's good.
The Sultan of Sway .... very clever! Another extremely well done video, clearly explained and made easy to understand.
By far the most comprehensive and best video regarding this topic on TH-cam
Wow, that's high praise! Thank you!!
I just added a rear sway on my Tundra! Much better road manners, not good for off roading but since I only pull a camper and do not off road, I am loving it!
This video is TOO GOOD. Clearest explanation I've ever seen.
We're lucky to have Keith, he's our suspension guru!
Great video, a sway bar upgrade is on my short list. I'm still at the fixing-the-problems stage though. Wouldn't mind hearing a little about that MGB-GT LS-V8 behind you some time!
Here's a little more info! :)
th-cam.com/video/APEtRlbx22E/w-d-xo.html
"unless you're just putting coilovers because you want it to be mad low, in which case doesn't really matter you're not watching this channel because we're talking about performance here" Good one !
I got your front bar to fix an handling quirk, as you said, a long time ago, as it was too oversteery, only to find months later that the previous buyer installed stiffer springs, but the rears in the front, and the fronts in the rear. Imagine how scary it was entering a curve at speed. :O
Thanks for the advice for the helm join, exactly what I got like so many others, I guess. I will now look (or listen) at them, and replace them once they go "tichik-a-tichik-a-tichik" soon.
I like the adjustability to get rid of preloads, so I guess your 13-99050 end links does the same thing but with a ball joint?
Thanks for the video, I always wondered what sway bars really did.
I learn so much from this channel
I also have a modified STi that I autocross. Many speed bumps are in my area & like most folks I tried to run one side thru the flat spot in the middle. Well... I was going thru front & rear swaybar endlinks, about 2 sets/year. Thought about it for a bit. I started taking all speed bumps so both front & rear tires would impact the bumps at the same time. It's been four years since I replaced the last set.
Thank you for explaining. Really informative and just what I wanted to learn.
Thank you so much for the video!
Thanks for the video... I love the big brake willwoods I've gotten from FM and look to see more information on products you offer, Cheers!
Great explanation!
Watching this from NL after getting on the track yesterday and realizing my FWD Ibiza Cupra with coilovers is almost tipping over, pretty sure I almost drove on 2 tires at some point haha. This was a great video, gonna need to look into the swaybar situation. Especially the explanation of the endlink location was great.
Thanks for watching!
Amazing vid
Would love to see something on Roll centre's. Mainly roll centre adjustments Vs Anti rollbar stiffness With the objective being overall traction throughout a corner.
謝謝他跟他們一家人把台灣變成一個更棒的地方
You have sports car passion as demonstrated by the MGB behind you
I bought your Sway Bar Set in '04. I installed them with the Front bar on Stiff and the Rear bar in the Middle hole. I used new OEM End Links.
In '07, about 140K miles. the OEM Sway Bar Brackets sheared. I installed your Heavy Duty Sway Bar Brackets. We've been happy ever since.
I've owned my '99 since summer '04 and 50K miles. I never tracked the car, mostly commute, trips and now pleasure. I live in rural KY/TN with hills and curves.
Glad to hear you're enjoying them! One thing to remember with extended use is that a loss of lubrication on the poly bushings will lead to a lot of extra stress on the mounts, so it's important to occasionally get some fresh grease in there. I don't know if that was a factor in your mount failure or not.
Some people use Teflon tape but we haven't tried that.
This is as much as I need to know about sway bars. Thank you for doing it. 👍
Glad we could help!
Great info 👌
Great video. I don't have a Miata but I found this while looking for info on how to replace my sway bar links. This gave me a great overall understanding of how everything related to it works. Thanks for the info!
Thanks for the kind words! Glad it helped!
This is great!
Great video, very informative. I just replaced my stock NC sway bars with RX8 yellows front and rear (sorry, not flyin' miata) and it has transformed the car. Still very neutral but so much less roll and better grip. I'm in the UK, it's easy to source the RX8 bars and they fit exactly with no mods required, as the NC is built on the same platform as the RX8.
NC owners use the RX8 parts in the US as well. It's a good budget option, especially given the value of the donor car. The downside is that there's no adjustability so you can't fine-tune the handling with them.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Thanks for the reply, I don't track my car, so I don't need the adjustability, although I could drill some extra holes if I wanted to stiffen it up. It handles great with the RX8 bars, I just needed a better setup for normal road use, as you probably know we have a lot of twisty roads here in the UK, especially close to where I live, near to the Peak District National Park.
maybe a detail but resistance to torsion on a tube is to the 3rd power not the 4th …. good video anyhow!
Awesome video. I no longer have my NA8 but I want a rear bar for my Mazda 3.
Thanks for the quality programming!
My own thoughts are these: if I had to do it again I’d go with only a bigger aftermarket front bar set neutral…I have racing beat front and rear, with their end links. Fm voodoo 2 power, Bilstein PSS coilovers. Always have had issues with oversteer and found full loose on rear with a medium setting up front works for the street. Autocross sometimes on a large course disconnecting the rear helps with getting a fast time. Adjusting the rear is one of the best tools to have. Lube the bars or break end links!! Hemispherical solid end links are horrible, especially on a street car.
Hi, the holes and bumps are so bad around my city that I disconect the role bars in the winter to get a much better ride. The wheels need to work independently so help with my teeth not rattling together.
Really appreciate the in-depth explanation on the function of what these do.
Covid has forced me to give a lot more love to my NB and so I'm looking into a putting some more suspension mods to make this street car more fun to drive.
This really helps!
In a corner, the outside is raised, which also raises the inside via the roll bar and flattens the car. Sounds like you are saying that the inside goes in the opposite direction from the outside, but that would increase the roll. Correct me if I'm wrong.
you know I was just thinking about he said that backwards
Late reply here - but the outside wheels go up and the inside wheels go down due to the weight transfer loading/unloading the springs on each side. The sway bar fights this but cannot prevent it. We always concentrate more on the outside compression because that's what people take pictures of!
Thank You Keith
Its the content and knowledge that matters. Great video where you have explained complex motion dynamics very easily.
I have recently bought a Nissan Armada 2013 model. Does it have a factory fitted sway bar? How can I reduce the on road swaying and bumpy ride to more comfortable?
Unfortunately, we know nothing about Nissan Armadas, but taking similar principles as what Keith discusses, stiffer sway bars will help with body sway during cornering, and a more compliant suspension should help with ride quality. Look around for clubs, owner groups or forums for your particular car and talk to other owners. In our experience that's the best way to get insight into what other people are doing to fix similar problems :)
Brilliant!
Hi Keith, I have a question regarding how the sway bar works relative to your explanation starting around 4:10. You said that when the left side of the sway bar goes up that the right side goes down. That doesn't seem the way that I picture it happening. Example: during a right turn the car will roll left which makes the left control arm go "up" thereby shortening the left shock and rotating the left sway bar end "upward". (On the left side we can say that the car is doing work on the sway bar end.) The sway bar end on the right side of the car also goes "upward". It has to as it is a very stiff bar. The sway bar can then be said to be doing work on the car by lifting the right control arm "upward" and thereby bringing the right wheel upward which causes the right side of the car to move toward the earth via gravity thereby creating a levelling effect on the car. Is that correct?
The weight transfer when cornering puts more load on the outside springs and takes load off the inside springs. This means the outside springs compress more (wheel goes up, relative to the car) and the inside springs extend (wheel goes down, relative to the car). You can see this happening fairly clearly if you look at a car mid-corner compared to how it sits at rest.
The sway bar resists this movement - that's exactly what it's designed to do - but it IS a big spring and there are some fairly big forces involved so it does twist. If you were to make the sway bar so stiff that it didn't flex at all, the car would have absolutely no roll.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Thank you Keith. That makes sense. I really appreciate your videos and descriptions with actual parts and simulations!
Good pick up, I had the same thought at 4:10. They use the term resist, when actually it ‘assist’. Ha ha meaning when the left wheel is compressed the sway bar tries to lift the right wheel in order to ´assist’ in keeping the car level.
Great Vid Keith: I am a new owner of a NC2. Purchased from father-in-law who is now aging out of driving. The car, also an RF/Automatic, (darn), has just over 13K miles. I have been driving it for only a month or so. When I bought it my son commented that the tires were 'hard' do to age. Well maybe.
I decided to change tires and put on 205/45ZR-17 Michelin Pilot Super Sport XL.
Now the mystery,...
It seems to me that the car rolls more on corning. Seems to have lost some of the crisp control.
Is it my imagination?
It is tempting to return to the original tires but, tires on tires off sounds like a bad movie.
Without having driven the car for a time that would support my impression of the handling I am hoping you can tell me if my impression is plausible. (?)
Could stiffer sway bars help?
dan
If your old tires were hard and had low grip, you may be cornering harder than you were before. That will lead to more body roll.
Depending on the tires you took off, you might also have softer sidewalls now which will make the turn-in less sharp. If you've noticed an improvement in ride quality, that's quite likely. Softer sidewalls won't make the car roll significantly more, but they will make it feel a little mushier.
@@FlyinMiataVideo yes, bit-o-mushy. Also yes the ride is softer.
So how would (or not) stiffer sway bars feel in this case?
-- also: would FM consider swapping the automatic for a manual in my car?
@@mr1enrollment Sway bars will help - they'll cut down on the roll (like they're meant to do) and will help with turn-in, but you may still find it a bit mushier than before. You could also try running a little more tire pressure.
The transmission in your car is electronically controlled, changing it to a manual will involve more cost and effort than selling the car and buying a similar one with a manual transmission. We'd have to check the documentation, the ECU may be involved. Only the NA models make it easy to do a transmission conversion. We don't work on customer cars at this point, our shop is devoted to new product R&D.
In the background, is that an LS in an MGB-GT? That's brave.
Sure is. I built that car about 10 years ago. It's a GT with a lot of chassis stiffening, Miata front suspension and steering and a custom three-link rear all riding on custom-specified AFCO coilovers. Almost no moving parts with an MG part number.
Weighs the same as stock, better weight distribution and makes wonderful noises.
my 2021 Fiat panda hybrid steering has a mind of it's own .. The Anti roll bar links are connected to a welded lug on the Macpherson front suspension strut . The loads applied to the Macpherson strut make the steering fidget around the centre ./ straight ahead . This requires constant small steering corrections which is tiring on a long journey . I have seen many reports on the internet regarding this Weird steering of the Fiat Panda . The Lancia Musa front suspension has the Anti roll bar forces acting on the lower control arm . This arrangement results in a relaxed straight tracking dive . requiring virtually no steering corrections to maintain an orderly non weaving drive .
Great stuff! And i don't even have a miata
Awesome! Im assuming that your suspension kits are essentially "matched" with your coilover kits? Also on the factory nb, the second you push it understeers then over steers. Sway bar upgrade, like the one on your web site, will help this? Im new to the rwd xar and have been doing fwd cars for 15 or so years. Thanks in advance!
Love the content!
They are basically matched, yes.
For your car, I'd start off by seeing how it behaves on a steady-state corner like a sweeper or an on-ramp. That's the basic balance that's determined by your springs, sway bars and alignment.
Once that's got the balance you like, you can start looking at transitional behavior such as your turn-in understeer. That could be shocks or it could simply be that you're turning in a little too aggressively. Slowing your hands down might get you the initial bite you need to get the car rotating.
Ok thanks, im sure it probably has something to do with these ventus v4s i have on there atm. Bought it with them on it back in dec. Thanks for the info....im really looking forward to start modifying!
Put these (fm swaybars) on my stock 02 miata...huge difference 👍.
Thanks you, please why my rev4 sway rot always broke in a pace of 3 or 4 months? I got tired of changing it
13:23 *taking notes* play with all the holes, got it.
@brandynlivingston171 😆
Can you adjust one hole at one side at a time, or do you need to adjust both sides equally when making adjustments on swaybars?
Hello keith, i will have soon a ND3 miata and i would like to know what modification i have to do to reduce a lot of the body roll while keeping the chassis playful. I mean to keep it easy to slide when i'll want to have fun. I don't wan't to put very grippy tires and hard coilovers. Only putting stiffer sway bars can be the only mod to reach what i am looking for ? Thanks !
Drive the car first :) Then, if it rolls too much for you, sway bars are probably what you’re looking for.
If you had changed your structure and figuration and the end link will no longer work should your new in link be right in the middle of travel or closer to one of the ends top or bottom?
Hi Keith...watching one of your vlog re: how to corner weight a car...does lowering the car using lowering springs changes the car's corner balance or not? Also do you recommend using lowering spring or using a proper set of dampers/springs or coil-over to change ride height? Thank you and i like your channel.. Cheers!
Lowering springs won't necessarily have an effect on corner weights, it all depends on how consistent the springs (and everything) else is. They won't affect front/rear weight balance at all.
We did a whole video on coilovers vs lowering springs - check it out. If you don't need the specific attributes that you get from a coilover, it comes down to the quality of the damping.
will a sway bar work the same on a monicarlo chassis dirt renagade if the track becomes rough, holes tacky, vrs dry smooth slick?
It will work the same way, but you may want to run a softer (or no) sway bar for that sort of track. It's a little outside our area of expertise!
Hi Keith, hope you are still taking questions. Is using different sway bar holes each side (e.g. one side on soft, the other side on med) to make finer adjustments acceptable, if the endlink lengths are adjusted accordingly? I have read both that it's completely fine and also that doing such creates asymmetry and is best avoided.
We suggest keeping the attachment holes the same on both sides of the bar so that things don't get weird in roll transition. It would be interesting to test this theory.....maybe in the future we can show the results of an extreme case to better understand it.
I have a CL 600 and wanting to install regular suspension due to I'm tired of ABC issues, a lot of companies sell kits for the car but my concern is these cars do not have sway bars/anti-roll bars. Can I add sway bars/anti to the suspension system and if so you have an idea what size?
Could you suggest the better not super expensive front and rear anti-roll/sway bars? Front coils/rear shocks. This is for a 2001 IS 300 Lexus. Thank you sir, I just subscribed to your channel. I loving and learning it.🤪🏗🌊🏴☠️
We appreciate that! Unfortunately, as we are Miata specialists, we probably aren't qualified to suggest parts for your Lexus. Our suggestion would be to find forums, facebook groups or local owner's clubs that can give you opinions and recommendations for that specific car.
I’m really lovin these videos lately. Been doing a lot of work on my NA6, and am considering getting a wrecked nb just to cannibalize the suspension components and drivetrain, it seems a lot cheaper to do that all at once than buying individual performance parts over time lol
If you take that route, do a complete rollerskate swap. It's the easiest way to do a full NB upgrade!
Does the car needs re-allignment after replacement swaybars.
It does not.
how about on your truck today at 8 to change left ? how long should the links be
Still not sure. ND1 has a tendency to roll particularly in front with a feeling of loose end. Will the stabilizer bar will help or need to change the spring. Springs seems to be more for the apparence . What do you recommend?
We think sway bars are one of the first mods any enthusiast should do to a Miata. They will flatten the ride and help eliminate body roll, without affecting ride quality. Check out this video with Keith Tanner for more info, and give us a call if you have any specific questions! :)
th-cam.com/video/wvqw-f4dhlA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=CGB76OHXWQdhNzZ6
I keep getting distracted by that LS and Headers in that little car behind you!
Great video, and thanks for sharing your home! Question, ...I have FM sway bars on NB (MSM, actually) and now will be increasing spring rates (FM springs to coilovers). Would you recommend I put OEM sway bars back on to offset increase in spring rates, and therefore my changes are more incremental? Then I can add FM bars back if wanted? Car is 95% street, 5% track. I presume I could then feel the roll bar change difference as the springs would be a constant, unlike my previous suspension swap where I did it all together.
Or - you keep the bars the way they are, and then you feel the difference in the spring rates. You'll very likely want to keep them, so there's not much point in taking them off and then back on again.
How do I best remove old rusty stock endlinks on an NC? Can I reuse them if they happen not to be seized up?
I plan on putting in a set of RX-8 bars and I had to drill them out to remove them from the parts car... Since I do not have a garage or driveway for my car to sit in until I figure that out if I run into that issue again, it would be great to hear about your experiences, so I can get the job done quickly. Thanks in advance!
Penetrating oil such as Kroil or PB Blaster - not WD40. Soak them over a day or two. That'll give you the best chance of removing the old endlinks. That's about all you can do, really.
If you do run into trouble, you can drive the car without sway bars. Just don't go exploring the handling limits on the first turn!
Keith, thanks very informative. I have a 17 ND, and was looking a the front/ rear set. Would you recommend the middle hole setting as a starting point? I am just using it for street use.
I defer to whatever we put in the instructions! I think that was the middle hole for the ND, but in case that's different than the instructions - follow the instructions.
If I would change the bar only on the rear with a strongerone would the car roll less? I know on the Nd its quite an anoing job to change the bar on the front. I dont use the car on track but I would like to make it roll less on the street. Help
Changing the rear only to a stiffer unit will cut down on roll somewhat, but it will also increase oversteer. Better to bite the bullet and install a matched set of bars.
@@FlyinMiataVideo thanks a lot
does this work on a 1946 gmc roadrunner 10th anniversary edition gt500?
Nope.
I can't seem to adjust my end links properly. My car (jetta gli) handles beautifully in the corners but coming out of the corner to a straight line I get a pretty ugly shake in my front end.
I’d be looking at things like control arm bushings. It’s pretty unlikely that’s a sway bar related problem.
Great video but I have one question. If I change the endlink length with the goal to get the antirollbar in an angle so I can change the torque it gets so its something similar like the adjustment holes but in a stock antirollbar. Can something like that work ? Because I don't see anyone doing it
It doesn't really work, no. Changing endlink length will not have a significant effect on the effective stiffness of the bar.
Good video. I've emailed you before on the subject of locost home built cars. Loved your input. I've been daily driving an 06 STI for 14 years and test driving miatas for fun over the span. Never liked the acceleration. Finally got to the point I wanted to sell the STI. Done. Found a used miata for less than the price of a new ej2.5 . So Looking into coil overs. If you've done a video on that send me a link. If not I'd like learn a lot more. Thanks in advance.
Check our channel, we've done a few videos on coilovers and general suspension.
Is there an appropriate way to set preload on OEM swaybars/ end links with just your lowering springs? Is it ideal to remove the end links, set the car down on a level floor then re-install the end links?
Yes, that's the best option. Get the car on the wheels, then install the end links so they're not loaded up. We just shot a new video on end links, it should be released today.
@@FlyinMiataVideo very cool, thank you for getting back to me. Your videos are awesome!!!
Greeting
I’ve purchased Strut Tower Bars, QNDA-56-490 and QNDA-56-49X, for my 2019 MX-5 ND; however INSTALLATIONS AND USER’S INSTRUCTIONS manual doesn’t help!
Can you share with me a link from your channel how to install them?
Thanks appreciated
We do not offer these parts and have not produced an installation video, so we'd recommend you'd go to your vendor to get the instructions.
If the front of the car is stiff than the rear and getting more weight transfer then the front should have more grip. Why it's opposite? I'm confused.
Grip does not increase in direct proportion to load on the tire. Twice the load will give you a bit less than twice the grip. So the outside tire will gain traction with weight transfer, but not enough to to offset the loss in traction on the inside tire. Total grip decreases across that end of the car.
Does longer or shorter end links on sway bars have an effect on handling
End-links should be whatever length you need to keep the sway bar parallel with the ground when the full weight of the car is on the suspension, which is why we're a big fan of adjustable end-links for lowered cars. If the end-link is too long, or too short, you could be limiting your sway bar travel/rotation, which could cause contact with other components and keep your suspension from performing optimally.
How do the 9th generation corolla rear anti-roll bar work? It doesn’t look like the traditional anti-roll bar.
We don't have any direct experience with those cars, but it looks like the beam axle is intended to flex as part of suspension movement and is basically acting like a sway bar on its own. The bolt-in sway bar is basically some extra roll stiffness on that beam, giving it adjustability.
What about bushing stops? The Racing Beat bars have a ring welded to the bar and they act like a bushing side to side stop. Is this good or not? I know this sounds silly, but I do like the red (racing beat) over the (flyin miata) gray. I also like how the flyin miata bars offer more adjustment holes on the ends than racing beat. Can I get bars that are not coated from flyin miata, so I can get them coated red? I plan on using whatever bars flyin miata suggests as far as thickness and tube vs solid for my 97 NA. Thanks
Unfortunately, our manufacturer does all the powdercoating before parts are shipped to us. You could paint over the hammered grey finish. We use it partly because the slightly rough surface helps trap the sway bar lube.
Most of our bars have an extra kink in them to act like a bushing stop. There shouldn't be any side load on a bar, but sometimes they can shift.
Is there a preset length for the end links on the rear sway bar?
The correct end-link length for both front and rear will always be determined by the ride height and other suspension components. The goal is to position the sway bar ends parallel (horizontal) with the ground, so the "proper" length may vary from car to car depending on the suspension set-up. Adjustable end-links are especially helpful on lowered cars to ensure the sway bar is in the proper position to retain their full range of motion. Hope that helps!
What about changing only the front sway bar on ND1?
We have an installation guide for ND sway bars that can be found here: th-cam.com/video/aEyQQHbZNFo/w-d-xo.html
My question was if it is necessary to change both sway bars. I would do only the front one.
@@Davan514 Gotcha. We like to switch out both bars to keep the car more balanced but some racing sanctions only allow one to be changed. If you're not worried about meeting tech, it comes down to driver preference.
I run fwd oval track cars and sway bars hurt handling. Sway bars keep passenger cars level. Spilled coffee is undesirable.
Body roll has nothing to do with grip
How do sway bars play a roll with tire sizes. Trying to figure out wish sways bars to go on a nd chassis.
We have been happy with how our sway bars feel and work on the ND chassis with almost any tire size and compound we've tried, from 205/17 street tires to 245/40 100tw performance tires. Sway bars are going to help reduce body roll, which will help reduce dramatic weight transfer, which will help keep your tires in constant contact with the ground. Everything in the suspension needs to work together, but the sway bar and tire choices should be dictated by how you plan on using the car and what kind of feel is more important to you. Are you looking for a comfortable quiet ride or for pure performance? Feel free to reach out to our support team directly if you have specific questions about our bars or for personal recommendations that we think work.
@@FlyinMiataVideo comfort but with performace. I currently have 195/50/16 kumho all seasons with stock 16x6.5 wheels for winter/daily driving. . but building it in to a dual duty (daily autocross/hpde car). I also have wilwood dynpro 4 pistons with bp20's , meister R crd coil overs 7/4 spring rate and abbout to put corbeau fx1 pros in . I use a 17x7 with falken azentis 615k+ 215/45/17 for autocross/track/summer use.
So would it be a good idea on a lowered car where roll isn't concerning to run small bars on both ends to save weight? Is there much of a performance benefit to larger bars on both ends?
Does less roll equate to faster transitions?
Sway bars are not really a place to try to save weight, they're a functional part of the suspension. More roll stiffness does mean faster transitions, as it takes time for the body to move around and take a set.
I have a stock 2001 Miata (auto), with 86,000 miles on it, do I need new sway bars?
They don't wear out, so not due to age. You will need shocks if you're still on the originals.
“Couple Hundred Dollars”
2024: 400 dollars
@TheWoundedNinja Unfortunately, as you've noticed, prices have gone up quite significantly in some cases in the nearly 4 years since this video was published. When our Suppliers raise their prices, we must also raise our prices on those parts, or we wouldn't be able to sell them any longer. We do make every attempt to keep prices as low as possible, but material costs have risen quickly and unfortunately, our asking prices have to keep pace with them.
@@FlyinMiataVideo I know I just thought it was funny how everything was so affordable back then
I have a heavier vehicle-a mini-van; ‘03 Ford Windstar. I’m not auto crossing w/this thing(lol…not in the traditional sense…lol). It’s just so heavy that cornering is sometimes cringy. I mean “rock’n roll” f’real. As you can probably tell, this is my beloved vehicle. A husband and dad, it’s my “Batmobile” for the day-to-day saving of the day.These vans come stock w/front 22mm sway bars. I was just brainstorming. First off would a rear track bar(which comes stock on these vans) do a better balancing job along w/front sway bar - or would a custom rear sway bar help…..“AAAAND”, would the track bar and sway bar work in tandem or am I limited to one or the other?
A track bar is there to keep a live axle from moving side to side. It's a very different beast from a sway bar in terms of function, and they shouldn't interfere with each other.
Adding a rear swaybar to your Batmobile will help it stay flatter but will also make it more prone to oversteer and might make it less stable on the highway. You'll have to decide if that's what you're looking for!
@@FlyinMiataVideo So now, if I were to add a slightly smaller(less stiff) sway bar and links(somehow because it’s not stock with one) would that counter the stability with oversteer or even it out while flattening my cornering? Did I mistake my axle for a dead axle, which is actually a live axle?
@@jamerarubiano I've never come across the term "dead axle" before, but you're right. Perhaps I should have said "beam axle". It doesn't really matter if the axle provides drive or not in this case. The track bar is there to keep it from moving side to side.
If you want to keep the balance where it is now, you'll want to increase the stiffness of the front sway bar when you add the new one in the rear. Keep in mind that with a taller vehicle like a minivan, head toss gets magnified and your passengers might start complaining as you stiffen the vehicle in roll.
@@FlyinMiataVideo hmmmmmmmmm….perhaps a slight lowering of an inch or 3 may decrease that head toss effect. Now I ascertained from your disdain for the idea of lowering for cosmetics(despite the “coil-over” remission) that handling performance wasn’t a concession for you? I must say NY is not the place for lowered vehicles, but I can’t think of other ways to increase stability. How about a longer track bar with a downward bend for less deflection ?
I recently installed Koni Yellows and FM springs and FM sway bars.. Recently installed the adjustable end links. My butt swears the road manners and ride are just a touch better after the end links, but common sense tells me that’s ridiculous.
It's not out of the question if you have an NA. Those stock bushings are pretty stiff and resist changing position. If you have a later Miata - well, placebo is a heck of a drug :)
NB. Yeah, like I said, common sense tells me there’s no there there.. That said, the suspension package is fantastic. Its like a brand-new car.
@@FlyinMiataVideo "Placebo is a heck of a Drug" that line needs some love.
...and weight transfer is a function of inertia.
And inertia is a function of mass. How deep do we want to go down this rabbit hole?
@@dielaughing73 to the Higgs field.
Hi ! For an 2000's nb 1.8, would the sway bars affect high speed cornering ? Should i make the upgrade to increase stability in those conditions ? The car is all stock, only have dif. door bushings, front strut bar and strut bar on seat belt points. Also stock wheels and tyre dimensions ( new Michelin ). All of the car as very few miles ( ±30 - found one in OEM mint condition...) Only for daily use or street ride. But i want to increase stability at high speed to give me more confidence on the highway. Thanks.
From your description, you may want to consider new shock absorbers - even at that low mileage.
Thanks. I'll have a look at it. Have to do one mod at the time... Great vid. by the way
The only comment I'd like to add is that yes, all spring steel wears over time, and yes, a 30 year old sway bar on a high mileage car is definitely less effective than a new one, all other factors the same. They're just a torsion spring, and we've all seen some old MOPAR with their infamous broken torsion bars up front.
Wow. This could have been a 5-min video. Head toss?
It's the discussion of things like head toss that keep it from being a 5 minute video.
You said go-carts don't have suspension. That's not really true. This girls go-cart did of course it would do 120+ mph. Well I was really big into go-cart racing
There are exceptions to every rule! That sounds like a fun go-cart! :)
@@FlyinMiataVideo was a fun rule to break. This girl had some fun and it got me into full sized track cars at an early age.
@@FlyinMiataVideo love your videos by the way
Virus wzs a story but sway is proven😂
0:22xx
Can we put grease on the rubber for the sway bar
There's no need to grease a rubber bushing, they're intended to deform. Polyurethane bushings do need to be greased.
Hi
Thanks
I got a FWD sedan and it acts weired in corners ... It tends toward inside the corner rather outside and this is a bit wiered and it happende just after i changed the front and rear shocks and tires ... It has a suspension just like miata. Wonder if anyone could help
Did you get a full alignment after installing the suspension?
Guess I'm a little confused.. I see some folks say these things help overall grip, and others say not. I understand that adding or stiffening a rear swaybar would help to reduce understeer (or induce oversteer) which implies to me that adding anti-sway in the rear actually *reduces* grip in the rear. It seems to me that if you're looking for the best track times around an autocross or small track, you want to maximize grip as much as possible... Wouldn't it then make sense to have as little swaybar as possible to maximize grip? Just enough to keep the car controllable.. Maybe Mazda was smart in designing the ND with as much body roll as it does have?
That's the most common misperception and one we tried to address. You're not adding or removing grip overall, you're shifting it from one end of the car to the other. When you stiffen the bar at one end of the car, that end loses some grip but the other end gains it. If you stiffen both bars proportionally, the grip level at each end stays the same - not counting effects from suspension geometry.
Basically, a sway bar does not act alone. It affects both ends of the car.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Thanks for the clarification! and sorry, guess I was too thick headed to pick that up from the video.
Great video. Question: I've heard you can connect the end link on one side of the sway bar to the stiffer hole and the softer hole on the other to average them out. Is this true and are there any disadvantages to doing so?
It seems like that should work, but you're dealing with some pretty subtle changes by that point.
Hi Keith, at 7:05, if the front is stiffer and gets the bulk of weight transfer which i assume under braking, doesn't the fronts get most grip? I just want to ask because you did say less but that text message did distract you
Sway bars are designed to have no effect on braking and acceleration, so we're talking about cornering loads.
The stiffer end does get more weight transfer, which means more grip on the outside tire and less grip on the inside. The key is that the inside tire loses more grip than the outside tire gains, so you have less total traction across that axle. The opposite thing is happening at the rear.
This is a critical thing to understand with sway bar and roll stiffness tuning - weight transfer costs you total grip. You are using the relative roll stiffness front and rear to determine how the weight transfer is split across the two axles, and thus the amount of grip at each end. Increase the roll stiffness at one end -> increase the weight transfer at that end -> decrease the overall grip at that end.
@@FlyinMiataVideo thanks Keith. I still have some uncertainties if you don’t mind answering please. I had cornering in mind as that is what i am trying to figure out in my car when i go to the track for HPDE and i hope you can help clear some of the remaining uncertainties in my head. As the car turns, weight transfers from neutral to the outside tires, do it with more speed and more steering angle and the inside tires may lift a little bit off the ground hence losing traction. If the front gets a thicker sway bar or adjusted to stiffer setting, won’t it help load the front inside tire more sharing weight transfer and increase traction in the inside tire? As a follow up question, i read multiple forums that say for street use this is the case but at track high performance situations, the more stiff front will actually create more understeer because the front suspension will be very stiff due to the sway bat and will cause the front inside wheel to lift because the suspension cannot travel. Thanks in advance for the answer.
@@bennyang8049 Thinking of the sway bars as lifting wheels gets you in trouble and that's what's causing your confusion. You see this a lot on random forums as well. They resist roll by being a spring. And you have to look at the two sway bars relative to each other, as they work in tandem to shuffle the weight transfer back and forth. You cannot change the total amount of weight transfer with roll stiffness, you can only distribute it front to rear. That's important. The total amount of weight transfer is determined by your CG height, your track width, the mass of the car and the lateral acceleration.
Lifting a wheel right off the ground is 100% weight transfer at that end, which means that's the least amount of grip you can get. The outside tire will have a lot of grip, but it won't have as much as if the inside was also contributing. At that point, any further weight transfer will take place at the other end of the car. Some cars work really well with one wheel in the air. Me, I like to have full travel available.
You might want to pick up a copy of How To Build A High Performance Mazda Miata. There are a lot of diagrams and the math about what's going on.
@@FlyinMiataVideo thanks Keith. Much appreciated