Here are the responses to a few frequently asked questions. I really appreciate you all for engaging and asking questions. Keep them coming! 1. Why can't you simply do a sway bar disconnect on the Toyota IFS (Prado platform specifically)? It is because Prado's sway bar end links mounts to the spindles. Most other vehicles mounts to the lower control arm. If you simply take out the end link, the sway bar will interfere and damage the outer CV and tie rod. You also cannot spin the sway bar 180 to get it out of the way with vehicle on the ground. The closest thing to a "disconnect" is the sliding end links. It does not allow full range of travel, other wise the sway bar will run into the CV like we just mentioned. It is definitely a good compromise, but existing products require extensive amount of maintenance due to all the poor sliding surfaces. Wander Lost Overland did a long term review on this. Go check out their channel! 2. Why can't you simply run extended end links for Toyota rear long travel kits? It is because if you run long enough end links for 28" long shocks, those end links will contact the lower links at compression. They essentially become the bump stops. The extended end links I have barely clears the lower links at full compression, and it is almost pulled straight and bind at full extension of my 26" long shocks. Yes, you can run my end links with 28" shocks. You are simply not getting the full droop of your shocks. The binding end links become your droop limiter and you risk them breaking over time. These again illustrate the idea I stated in the video. "There are many interactions under the surface. The obvious answer at the first glance is often not comprehensive."
I quote what you need to make your stock suspension better: "Integral Suspension System (ISS) The I.S.S. is a full suspension system that interconnects all 4 wheels of the vehicle through a central device. This interconnection allows independent control of all vehicle parameters (pitch, roll and tilt) without sacrificing comfort, and significantly improving driving in all situations. All this control is performed completely mechanically, without any sensor or actuator, which gives it an immediate response and high reliability." Patented and with prototypes and vehicles running since more than 10 years ago.
Possibly not with LT but I can disconnect and swing my sway bar up and not contact anything. I also have a quick disconnect I drew up on solid works but lost the file. It is a super simple solution and can use modified oem parts if you were to diy it. I've been looking for stone that Possibly wants to build and test them. I would but don't have the scratch for that at the moment unless I can find some off the shelf parts and hot glue them together hahaha. By the way. Owner of 2 2007 fjs 6mt. 140k, 180k.
My off road solution was to get a 957 Transsyberian. Looking for a 955 or another 957 with the electronic sway bar disconnect included in the "off road" package.
Sway bars are often used for controlling body roll and weight transfer at or near the limits of the tires, so you may not notice a dramatic difference with everyday on road driving, but when you need to make an emergency maneuver at highway speeds, it can be the difference between recovery from the maneuver and extreme oversteer/vehicle rolling over.
@Layton Aschauer yeah my wife drives a excursion... I replaced everything under it but the links at the time so we drove it a week with out them..... night and day difference... got the new links in and it stuck to the road.... I feel sway bars are needed in solid axle leaf springs more
Very true, I’m not in an off roader, but I added a 28mm rear bar on my mk4 Jetta (+the 16mm bar permanently welded in the rear axle) with a stock 23mm front bar. And when I push my car to the limit now, the rear end is happy to come out before the front end loses grip. Throttle lift oversteer is the best 😂. It’s not “unsafe” but I would be worried if my mom drove my car and had to swerve while braking.
I’m definitely going to be following this data on my build. My rear sway bar broke and I’ve just been running as-is for a while but I now see I’m missing out on a bunch of front articulation by not forcing the front suspension to work, which leads to the rig feeling a bit tippy and makes it prone to wheel lifts off road.
Man, I love your channel! This is exactly the kind of stuff I love geeking out on. You do an excellent job of breaking down the problem, explaining the possible solutions simply with pros and cons (with real data!), and managing to still feel concise and to the point.
Good stuff, your videos are basically reinstating everything I learned over the years of messing around with my 4runner, I run no front sway bar, extended travel kings, SPC ucas, Icon long travel rear shocks, doninsons springs, OEM rear sway bar with extended links, panhard bar rise bracket and notched lower trailing arms. I love this setup, it gets me places!!! Dreaming of dirt king LT front! Thank you for your videos, I send them to all my IFS wheeling friends, especially when they ignore what I say about chasing caster and cab mount clearance! Haha
Happen to not only be an FJ guy, heck might have already commented on this video, but I'm also into rc cars and trucks as a hobby where these exact principles are used and this has to be one of my favorite videos on TH-cam. Just great. Kudos!
Your videos keep getting better and better. Such relevant information that isn’t covered accurately in other DIY videos. Really appreciate your hard work!!
On-road performance - with rear sway bar only, that reduces grip on the rear which might lead to oversteer instead of the usual (and safer) understeer tendency of most unmodified vehicles. I know from racing a front wheel drive car with an open diff. We stiffened up the rear sway bar to help keep the front wheels on the ground giving better drive out of corners (same method that you show) but it changed the grip balance to the front making the car oversteer more often. Great video by the way. Love to see someone explaining how things really work instead of giving people what they want to hear.
I recognize and appreciate the amount of work that went into all this testing, thank you! I suspected removing the front only was going to be the winner. That's what I run when I'm going on a trip where more flex is important. I originally started after installing a gas tank slid that made getting the rear bar off impractical, but I noticed that the flex was great and reasoned that it should indeed be loading the front more. I get full flex out of both the front and rear in this configuration. (2" lift, relatively light GX470) A note for anyone about to go remove their front bar after watching this video: The ends of the sway bar are in just the right position to drop down and tear your axle boots. Drape a few rags over the boots to provide some protection.
good analysis! I have decades of experience setting up race car suspension, so I put that to use on my Gen 2 Tacoma. What I ended up doing was removing the front bar and adding a rear bar with custom links. I'm currently working with a bar manufacturer to build me a heavier bar (1" instead of 7/8"). The combination gives me a good balance of handling and predictable trail manners.
I was just talking about the suspension travel with my GF re: solid axles vs. independent suspension. The amount of effort that went into making this video is phenomenal. I applaud you good sir!
Great analysis, as always. Another thing I would like to know is; How much added stress is put on other parts, and what new weaknesses are added by removing the sway bar. I know the CV axles and ball joints are exposed to much more articulation and strain, but I don't know by how much. And, it would be good to know by how much the strain is amplified on these parts at the extremes of travel. As in, CVs aren't as strong at full-lock steering and droop or compression of the suspension -- but Toyota likely designed these tolerances with the sway bar or KDSS in place. It would be interesting to learn more about the amount of stress removal of the sway bar puts on these other critical parts, in relation to what they were designed for. The number of Yotas being recovered offroad due to balljoint and CV axle failure is pretty significant, so I suspect there's a tie to these other parts being impacted with removal of the sway bar.
I have been running with out a front swaybar on my 3g4r since I had it and I like how it handles on road. After I installed my 3” lift I left the rears disconnected to see how it felt and it was too unstable for me. Front disconnected , rear connected is perfect for me and I’m glad there’s some data to back that up now haha Love your videos. Thank you!!
THANK YOU for actually answering this question. I have no idea why nobody else has bothered testing this. I've been recommending my friends remove their front sway bars on their Toyota trucks for off-road use. I've removed it from my Sequoia and while the truck definitely leans more with more cornering g force, as long as I drive like a "normal" person it's totally fine. Frankly, the Sequoia handled rather well so I simply cornered faster than necessary with the sway bar on. With it removed, I concur with all your results here. It performs notably better off-road but I do have to corner more cautiously on the road. Not a problem.
I have a great real world example of this, I removed my front sway bar in my 06 dodge magnum as I live in an area with very bad roads, instantly I felt a noticeable difference in handling that felt better on bendy rough roads. I will admit on the highway at higher speeds it's much easier to notice a lack of stability but for my application it works and I have no plans of reinstalling it
An excellent video - thorough, well tested and well justified. Thanks a load for this! Suspension is so much more complicated than people realise (me included): stiffness per corner, ride height, front to rear balance, roll centers, etc. etc. It's a mine field for anyone except a trained engineer! This did a great job of demonstrating complex interactions in "layman's terms". For on road driving, I find most people say they can't feel a difference. This is probably true for normal driving. The problem is in abnormal situations like swerving, emergency breaking, and sliding etc. This is where there will be a huge difference when the sway bars are removed. Ask yourself, if you can't feel a difference, why not? Sway bars are there for a VERY good reason. So be dam careful! Disconnect for off road and then reconnect for on road is the best solution in my opinion.
It's not just about articulation.. Removing front swaybar from an IFS vehicle gives you truly independent suspension, and thus, a dramatically improved ride quality over bumps.
@@wolfgang_h3t it's just a joke. I know Front sway bar delete is far less dangerous than rear sway bar delete and Significantly increase Articulation on many IFS vehicles.
I'm currently driving a jeep commander, same platform as the grand cherokee from 2005-2010, they are solid rear axle and independent front suspension. your videos have been very informative with how isf front ends work. Quality videos man, keep em coming.
I daily drive a 2004 4Runner V6: firmer front springs, stock rear springs, approximately 1.5" lift, generic KYB gas dampers, upgraded bumpstops...and NO swaybars. It rides better on and off road, it handles only slightly worse, more traction off road and tows the same. If you JUST remove the swaybars on a stock vehicle, it sucks and is a bit unerving. However, with some thought put into the total package it makes a noticeable positive difference and a great well rounded dual sport truck. Great video as usual. I learn a lot from you.
Every video you post challenges my existing understandings, and you always show the results/data to back up your claims. I LOVE your channel and all the content you put out!
The biggest reason to remove the front sway bar on ifs is to get true independant suspension, running rear extended links also helps retain the rear swaybar with max flex, my fj runs a true long travel rear with stock sway bar on extended links
is your rear suspension not binding at the link? I took mine out for the first time this past weekend and i believe I was hearing it bind. I do have a stiffer sway bar than you do.
I see my photo at 8:37 😁 what a pleasant surprise! So I currently have an FJ Cruiser with front ext. travel coilovers and a rear long travel kit. Since it is my daily driver, I run with a front sway bar on but no rear, that way I can have the unrestricted articulation back there for the long travel as spoken of in the video. But what an enlightening investigation! I never expected the articulation for the front to improve with only the rear sway bar on. Makes me want to go home and take off the front but reinstall the rear with longer sway bar links! But at the same time I know how it feels to drive without the front on, so it is a trade off for sure.
Haha thanks for your photo! Unfortunately you cannot fit a long enough sway bar endlinks for your long travel shocks. The end link will be so long that it hit the lower link during compression (it becomes the bump stop essentially). So using the longest possible end links like mine, you will give up some down travel
@@TinkerersAdventure I had a buddy from the forums make me a set of rear quick disconnect sway bar links for long travel but I ran into your same issue. On full flex the custom sway bar links hit my rear lower link. So which rear links do you have exactly? I assume they are not OEM length but still not super long. After watching your video I do want to try out running the rear sway bar with longer links and removing the front sway bar. And maybe I will even get the stiffer rear sway bar while I'm at it!
I have heard keeping the rear sway bar on helps but didn't really notice it until I switched to a Jeep with the disconnecting front sway bar, I leave the rear on and disconnect the front and get amazing results! Great video.
All your videos have been great help. All your data and simple explanation of the IFS is the best I’ve seen. I would like to see a panhard correction video from this channel.
Really great video. I like how you presented the data. My first car was a 61 beetle. Small front sway bar only. Terminal understeer. Added a larger front sway bar and rear sway bar and it drove flatter and was more responsive. Removed front sway bar when I went to a more modern front suspension. Handling dry was fine. But on a slippery crowned 2 lane road, passing another car, it started fishtailing then did a 180. Surprising and dangerous. I realized it was due to having too much stiffness on the rear. I'd be interested how yours handles on a wet and dry skid pad. Better to find any unexpected habits in testing than in traffic.
Awesome video once again. Confirming what I measured on my Bronco, keeping the rear increases the travel most situations. Rear sway bar for sure if you pull a trailer as well. A sway bar transfers force from one wheel to the other, so your test results make a lot of sense.
As much as I like off roading and off road content, it gets monotonous watching variations of the same thing on every channel. But your content is unique and interesting. Keep ‘em coming!
What a fantastic channel! I’m a software engineer with a 2022 Bronco Badlands, so some of the concepts apply, but it would be great to see this kind of data-driven approach on my vehicle. I’ll keep watching as it’s been very educational. Keep up the cool videos!
I daily drive my FJ Cruiser with no front or rear sway bars. Has improved the ride quality immensely, doesn’t make the vehicle floppy on the Highway, and I tow a huge trailer full of racing equipment. The improvements both off road and in the urban jungle of St Louis, along with gravel back roads, cannot be denied.
I always leave the rear sway bar on my H3, and disconnect or remove the front for really rough roads. Keeping the rear installed indeed helps balance the articulation more evenly between front and rear, which actually maximizes stability and comfort.
its important to note that front/rear stiffness balance for road manners is important. Dramatically reducing the front stiffness can create a strong oversteer tendency, which is obviously not desirable on tall vehicles. The safer on road setup is to remove the rear to get miles of understeer. OR better yet, disconnectable front sway bar.
You can’t disconnect the front sway bar on Toyota truck IFS, if you disconnect but don’t remove it, the sway bar will make contact with your CV axles while turning and destroy the outer boot at minimum, or wreck the inner bearings at worst. Ask me how I found that out.
@TK63636 i really want to know because I replaced my end links and the new end links were wrecked in short order so I'm split between replacing them again or removing the whole sway bar. But it is also my daily driver in Colorado.
@ Ah you weren’t being sarcastic. I removed my sway bar entirely. Can’t notice any difference in handling whatsoever tbh. Significantly better articulation off road. Just take it off and drive safely with plenty of distance on the highway between you and whoever is in front of you, you’ll be fine. Leave the rear on.
I would say weight distribution over front and rear axles is also important. Loaded pick up like Tacoma will tend to stay with both rear wheels on the ground and lifting a front wheel. In this case it may turn out that removing rear sway bar can help a lot.
Auto manufacturers make most all their vehicles under steer for safety reasons. They use a massive front sway bar to accomplish this because it’s inexpensive to do but bad for flex and getting loose. Awesome video, testing, and presentation. Thank you
Best videos on the net for information on vehicles. Cuts through all the opinions and ill-informed with proper information gained from hard work and actually trying. Thanks for the all the videos!
In the track racing world, when you add a sway bar (or increase the stiffness), you reduce the spring rates. This gives a little bit more comfort. In my 300TDi Defender, I run without sway bars front and rear, but with beefed up "rally style valved" shock absorbers. Pretty nice! 👌
Ok. I’ve just tested my truck without the front sway bar. On road the truck clearly rolls more than with both bars connected, but honestly nothing scary, even pushing on corners on country road. However, off-road the improvement is massive, in comfort, terrain copy capability and articulation. I’ve measured 7,15” of articulation of the front IFS, which is a massive improvement vs stock configuration. Rear articulation now is 12”. But the truck was empty so the bump stop was far away from the axle. Which means that a stiffer rear sway bar combined with the constant load I will carry in short time I was have still more articulation, less body roll on-road and a better balance FR-RR. My truck is a Nissan Navara 2020 (European Frontier with coil suspension all around).
Sway bars are good as long as they don’t bind, I just machine a bunch of material off them to soften them up. You can also tweak the roll stiffness front to rear relationship to your preference this way.
Absolutely phenomenal. Thanks for tackling so many relevant and misunderstood topics. I’m happy because the front off rear on w/extended links is what I landed on from my own trail experiences and now o have numbers to throw in my buddy’s faces lol. Honestly though I assumed i was still giving up more flex.
Sweet!. Removed front sway bar years ago after first trip to Ouray CO. Much better offroad, but lots more sway on the street. It was tolerable. I just ordered the last sway bar from Summit. Amazon was out. Sorry, no amaz kickback. Also got the extended links. Can't wait to try it on upcoming trip to Big Bend.
It'd be interesting to see you do this with 100 series Land Cruisers. With the torsion bars would you see as much improvement with the front disconnected?
I am also curious to see the results with a 100. The front has such little travel to begin with that I have been running a sway-bar free rig for a while to gain rear flex. I honestly did not notice a difference in highway travel with and without the rear sway bar but like Kai said, that's very subjective
@@mails5054 The land cruiser doesn't use coil springs in the front like every other Toyota IFS, it uses torsion bars, which are beefier but allow for less articulation.
@@mails5054 First off calling someone stupid when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about makes you look like a fool. I never said the 100 series doesn't use IFS, I said it uses torsion bars instead of coil springs. There are different types of springs if you weren't aware, coil, torsion, leaf etc. Sway bars are a type of torsion bar but the actual suspension on a 100 series has two large parallel torsion bars that take the place of coil springs. You attacking me is just unbelievable. Look up info on different types of springs before you shoot your mouth off and call people stupid. EDIT - Apparently your remark attacking me has been deleted but know that I saw it and you made yourself a fool.
@@tj_offroad sorry i have bi polar and i drank a lot cause an online friend passed away from heart diesese, nothing personal it just makes me lash out for no reason
I really like how he just presents data and leaves it up to us as to what we should do for our own rigs. Most people will say stuff like "you have to do this to do that," but Kai (sp?) knows there are many ways to skin a cat and many different applications so there is not a "one size fits all" solution.
I love your engineering and data-driven approach to off-road topics. Once you put the data into context, it wasn’t surprising that the rear axle needed to be stiffened to force the stiffer front IFS to actually take on more work. I have a 2017 Tacoma DCSB with the stage 2 Ironman FCP (3” ride height). I took my sway bar off and noticed that the new, stiffer front coilovers handle the on-road stability quite well without a sway bar. I was, however, a little disappointed that my rear axle simply flexes harder now (with the extended travel rear shocks), and my front IFS is too stiff to keep my truck level in hard flex situations. The only bummer is that the Tacomas don’t come with a factory rear sway bar. Perhaps I should find a way to install one. In extreme flex situations, the no-swaybar IFS does eventually do a nice job flexing to keep 4 tires on the ground, but the IFS still forces the truck body to lean away from whichever way it’s compressed. Thanks for the videos as always!
Love your content man! Your approach to this type of stuff is greatly appreciated. I can’t wait until you address headlights and how many people break the law and make driving more dangerous for everyone with incorrect light sources in their factory reflector assemblies.
On my Xterra the biggest gain other than articulation was much MUCH better transfer off objects. With the swaybar on, the wheel going off a sharp drop would get forced down very hard. With the sway off the ride is soooooo much better in all off road conditions. No more front wheel slam down. Hardly noticable on road as it's not that great handling anyway.
I agree with your analysis, i run an antirock swaybar in the rear with long travel up front and i had always thought i need a stiffer swaybar to get more out of the front long travel. I too am one of 7 ifs toyotas to conquer the Rubicon soupbowl (iconicfj included) although without any swaybar at the time and in a 2nd gen tacoma. Other factors made that obstacle possible than just swaybar and suspension. Ill be going straight axles and keeping the sway bar in the rear but may do a sway bar up front if i can package it. Love your videos, keep up the good work. I refer people to your channel when they ask questions that need visuals.
I'll guess remain the same only because I have no idea. I'll also note a company called Apex Designs is coming out with a Toyota front sway bar quick disconnect this spring. Would love to see your thoughts
Awesome information! I’d love to see some research of IRS vehicles like the Y62 based Armada. Especially given most of the other full size rigs other than Toyota are also now independent rear as well.
@@TinkerersAdventure the second gen sequoia would be a good example for your channel. It’s gaining popularity as an over landing platform. I’m debating getting one myself. I’d lose the solid rear of my first gen sequoia but the extra space and the more powerful 5.7 as well as better towing make it tempting!
Great work mate 🙂 Interestingly when the Land Rover Discovery first came out in 1989, only the top trim level had a rear sway (anti-roll bar ,UK). It was several years before they added one at the front (1992 with the 5 door, 7 seat model). UK market. The Range Rover had them earlier. The RR, Disco and old Defender are basically the same mechanical stuff and a slight difference in chassis. Rear bar will help reduce roll oversteer which on long, soft coils makes quite a difference on the road. Another factor that is useful to think about is axle diff locks. Sway bars can help to push the weight into the stuffed wheel which can gain traction with a diff lock. At the expense of stability so risking tipping. As in life it is all a compromise. Cheers.
Kai, I love your channel. Some of the best Toyota-related content I could ever hope for, and super thankful for the information as I look at my recently acquired older GX460.
One thing I don’t think can be argued is the improvement of ride quality off roading (not to be confused with vehicle control) when running no sway bars at all. I only do slow speed crawling and like running no sway bars at all. My rig rocks around a lot less with no bars
Great video man. Your FJ is sick. I have a 2008 FJ cruiser with a 3-inch front lift and a 2-inch lift in the rear for context. I have always hated the body roll that this platform has. I don't see how the suspension engineers decided that the puny rear bar was adequate for even stock coil overs. I bought the Nolathane adjustable rear sway bar after watching this video. This should be the first mod that anyone does to their suspension. I wish I had done this years ago. FYI- I kept the stock front bar in place since this is a daily driver that sees traffic.
My 2001 Ford ranger has independent front suspension, with front sway bar, but no rear sway bar. I've always considered adding a rear sway bar with disconnects and adding disconnects to the front, this was very interesting
these videos you are makning on fj cruisers are amazing and really in depth. Please continue to make these. My brother and I are always in a battle with our off-roaders. He has a bronco now and I have my fj. Big comp between the two. Thanks!
Very interesting, because myself and many others have a serious amount of money in the front sus just to have basically stock travel because the rear does all the work.
I just found this video and I am now going to start watching all of your videos. My truck (lifted Tundra, overlanding setup) has no rear sway bar but a front. Front only sucks offroad, but when I take it off (NO sway bars) it has too much body roll in corners. I need the better articulation of removing the front, but I would hope adding stronger leaf springs in the rear and adding a HD sway bar might give me a bit less body roll while still improving the front travel.
Jeep Wj guy here. (Yes I love the fj and want one as well!). All my rig’s, I’ve removed the rear sway bars and the fronts. Using QD’s , for when I’m at a gatekeeper lol allowing my jeeps to have daily driving confidence.
Very eye-opening. I especially appreciate seeing the data. My 2004 Xterra is front IFS / rear solid axle. I've been thinking completely backward. Thank you for sharing information that I can sink my teeth into.
I have a combination of SuperSprings bump stops and a slightly heavier sway bar as well. The bump stops are supposed to make contact earlier and compress much more than factory to help control overloading and body roll when towing.
My 3rd gen Tacoma suspension is stock I added the sumo springs bump stops & it gets me right out to the campsite or lake just fine, no sagging when I'm pulling my trailer working & it doesn't body roll as much daily driving... Perfect setup for me.
Very informative and detailed video, I can't imagine how much work it was to gather all that data, well done sir! I wanted to add that sway bars can also increase traction offroad by simply increasing the spring rate on the tire (that is climbing an obstacle) and into the obstacle you are climbing over like a big rock, the opposite tire will have the opposite effect (less spring rate). In other words, gravity is pulling the tire that is not climbing downwards, but the sway bar is pulling it up which then transfers that force into the tire that is climbing and onto the rock (sway bar force is pushing the climbing tire down increasing traction or more simply put the not climbing tire is made "lighter" and the climbing tire is made "heavier"). I hope I explained that in an understanding manner. I would like to hear your thoughts on articulation gain vs some possible traction loss when removing sway bars specifically in an offroad scenario.
Body roll has been getting worse with my FJ as its setup for touring and carrying extra weight. I was worried about getting a thicker rear sway bar as I thought it’d limit my flex. This video set my worries at ease!
Pausing comment for the 4:12 mark: with the front removed and the rear still on my guess is the articulation will be somewhere in between having both on and both off. But closer to both on.
So far I wanted to know exactly what a sway bar did. I know to a certain extent cuz I race radio control cars but I never really used them and I wanted to know what the difference was on a real car. You didn't amazing job in this video and answering my question and making it a thorough as possible. I got to say man bravo. Thank you for the information
I'm rolling 0 sway on my long travel taco... And only rear sway on the runner... There's a bit of roll in the runner but not uncontrollable... Thanks for your tests!
Food for thought, I have a 2007 Hilux, like the Tacoma's it has no rear swaybar, but you can buy one aftermarket. I currently have a stiffer front swaybar, but with sliding links, so I can lock them solid on the highway but just pull a pin to free up the swaybar off road.
Nissan xterra or frontier offroad community we removed the front and rear swaybars for better articulation with stiffer springs like 650lbs spring rates to reduce bodyroll
This is brilliant stuff. Definitely the most detailed I've ever seen on this topic. I'm watching from Australia, I have a Toyota Fortuner so all this is relevant information. I've also watched your other videos and have found them to be equally as well done as this. Keep up the good work.
Having DSC shocks can help a lot for handling. Removing a sway bar and adding some Low speed compression to the shocks helps add stability back on road in my experience.
That's true. Adding slow speed compression essentially make Fox's linear valving closer to digressive like the cheaper shocks. But you can still have linear valving when you need it. I wish I have Fox DSC on my FJ. My icons are digressive and I crank it all the way up for street driving.
I highly recommend a sway bar when u got coils in rear but when u got leafs in rear and coils upfront it’s not as critical and stick with rubber bushings to get the most articulation.
When lifting my 1st gen Tundra on 6112/5160 with 700lb springs I didn't bother reinstalling the sways. Sure it has more roll, like a boat, but nothing unmanageable and if you're on 33s or larger you probably aren't driving fast enough to really need them.
Long long time ago anti sway bars were an optional extra for some new cars and trucks. Because we drive larger vehicles, faster and more on the road, I would preference sway bars. It improves safety and control. But back in the day when we all drove on rough roads at lower speeds, a sway bar would only be fighting against the suspension and making for a harsh ride.
When I raised the suspension on my JK Sport, I obviously needed longer swaybar links, so opted for ones that disconnect on front by pulling pins out. It's easy to disconnect/reconnect when off/on-road. I haven't driven on-road with them disconnected, but a JK on 34.2s with a +2.5" behaves like a boat enough.
I have a 2012 Fj with a 6 inch pro comp lift with adjustable king coil-overs. Because of the 6 inch lift I had to custom the front skid plate and the front sway bar did not fit. But I never notice the difference and I do not drive it on the road as a sports car, lol. I was talked into the 6 inch lift and that was a waist of $2,200. It makes 35 fit in without a lot of trimming and banging but there are other ways as I learned in time to get around this. Definitely could of used your knowledge back when I started my build.
It just depends on year of vehicle for me. 86-94 4runners the torsion bars are so stiff in the front the sway bar only helps 10% on road. Just trying to squeeze any travel out of it really. My 2000 4runner was fine, never felt the need to remove it, flex was good enough. My current 83 pickup, remove sway bar and pan hards front, and sway bar rear. You need all the articulation you can get of both axles, and they are stiff enough, you hardly notice.
Great work! Love your videos, Kai! My FJC has the sway only in the rear with long travel in the front and I've run it that way for years even before long travel was installed. I'll look for that heavier bar.
Here are the responses to a few frequently asked questions. I really appreciate you all for engaging and asking questions. Keep them coming!
1. Why can't you simply do a sway bar disconnect on the Toyota IFS (Prado platform specifically)? It is because Prado's sway bar end links mounts to the spindles. Most other vehicles mounts to the lower control arm. If you simply take out the end link, the sway bar will interfere and damage the outer CV and tie rod. You also cannot spin the sway bar 180 to get it out of the way with vehicle on the ground. The closest thing to a "disconnect" is the sliding end links. It does not allow full range of travel, other wise the sway bar will run into the CV like we just mentioned. It is definitely a good compromise, but existing products require extensive amount of maintenance due to all the poor sliding surfaces. Wander Lost Overland did a long term review on this. Go check out their channel!
2. Why can't you simply run extended end links for Toyota rear long travel kits? It is because if you run long enough end links for 28" long shocks, those end links will contact the lower links at compression. They essentially become the bump stops. The extended end links I have barely clears the lower links at full compression, and it is almost pulled straight and bind at full extension of my 26" long shocks. Yes, you can run my end links with 28" shocks. You are simply not getting the full droop of your shocks. The binding end links become your droop limiter and you risk them breaking over time.
These again illustrate the idea I stated in the video. "There are many interactions under the surface. The obvious answer at the first glance is often not comprehensive."
Kdss is solution and sway bar from Lexus sedanes with adjustable sway bars
I quote what you need to make your stock suspension better:
"Integral Suspension System (ISS)
The I.S.S. is a full suspension system that interconnects all 4 wheels of the vehicle through a central device. This interconnection allows independent control of all vehicle parameters (pitch, roll and tilt) without sacrificing comfort, and significantly improving driving in all situations. All this control is performed completely mechanically, without any sensor or actuator, which gives it an immediate response and high reliability." Patented and with prototypes and vehicles running since more than 10 years ago.
Possibly not with LT but I can disconnect and swing my sway bar up and not contact anything. I also have a quick disconnect I drew up on solid works but lost the file. It is a super simple solution and can use modified oem parts if you were to diy it. I've been looking for stone that Possibly wants to build and test them. I would but don't have the scratch for that at the moment unless I can find some off the shelf parts and hot glue them together hahaha. By the way. Owner of 2 2007 fjs 6mt. 140k, 180k.
My off road solution was to get a 957 Transsyberian. Looking for a 955 or another 957 with the electronic sway bar disconnect included in the "off road" package.
What I would like you to test is a set of ORI struts on your FJ Offroad
Sway bars are often used for controlling body roll and weight transfer at or near the limits of the tires, so you may not notice a dramatic difference with everyday on road driving, but when you need to make an emergency maneuver at highway speeds, it can be the difference between recovery from the maneuver and extreme oversteer/vehicle rolling over.
Pussy take!
Yeah I never noticed a huge difference without my sways until I had to lock my breaks up at 60mph and felt like k was going to roll over
@Layton Aschauer yeah my wife drives a excursion... I replaced everything under it but the links at the time so we drove it a week with out them..... night and day difference... got the new links in and it stuck to the road.... I feel sway bars are needed in solid axle leaf springs more
@@laytonaschauer3675 You lock brakes to stop a vehicle, thieves break locks to open them.
Very true, I’m not in an off roader, but I added a 28mm rear bar on my mk4 Jetta (+the 16mm bar permanently welded in the rear axle) with a stock 23mm front bar.
And when I push my car to the limit now, the rear end is happy to come out before the front end loses grip. Throttle lift oversteer is the best 😂.
It’s not “unsafe” but I would be worried if my mom drove my car and had to swerve while braking.
I’m definitely going to be following this data on my build. My rear sway bar broke and I’ve just been running as-is for a while but I now see I’m missing out on a bunch of front articulation by not forcing the front suspension to work, which leads to the rig feeling a bit tippy and makes it prone to wheel lifts off road.
nice
Man, I love your channel! This is exactly the kind of stuff I love geeking out on. You do an excellent job of breaking down the problem, explaining the possible solutions simply with pros and cons (with real data!), and managing to still feel concise and to the point.
Good stuff, your videos are basically reinstating everything I learned over the years of messing around with my 4runner, I run no front sway bar, extended travel kings, SPC ucas, Icon long travel rear shocks, doninsons springs, OEM rear sway bar with extended links, panhard bar rise bracket and notched lower trailing arms. I love this setup, it gets me places!!! Dreaming of dirt king LT front! Thank you for your videos, I send them to all my IFS wheeling friends, especially when they ignore what I say about chasing caster and cab mount clearance! Haha
Happen to not only be an FJ guy, heck might have already commented on this video, but I'm also into rc cars and trucks as a hobby where these exact principles are used and this has to be one of my favorite videos on TH-cam. Just great. Kudos!
Your videos keep getting better and better. Such relevant information that isn’t covered accurately in other DIY videos. Really appreciate your hard work!!
Because it's dangerous and only idiots does it
On-road performance - with rear sway bar only, that reduces grip on the rear which might lead to oversteer instead of the usual (and safer) understeer tendency of most unmodified vehicles. I know from racing a front wheel drive car with an open diff. We stiffened up the rear sway bar to help keep the front wheels on the ground giving better drive out of corners (same method that you show) but it changed the grip balance to the front making the car oversteer more often. Great video by the way. Love to see someone explaining how things really work instead of giving people what they want to hear.
I recognize and appreciate the amount of work that went into all this testing, thank you! I suspected removing the front only was going to be the winner. That's what I run when I'm going on a trip where more flex is important. I originally started after installing a gas tank slid that made getting the rear bar off impractical, but I noticed that the flex was great and reasoned that it should indeed be loading the front more. I get full flex out of both the front and rear in this configuration. (2" lift, relatively light GX470)
A note for anyone about to go remove their front bar after watching this video: The ends of the sway bar are in just the right position to drop down and tear your axle boots. Drape a few rags over the boots to provide some protection.
good analysis! I have decades of experience setting up race car suspension, so I put that to use on my Gen 2 Tacoma. What I ended up doing was removing the front bar and adding a rear bar with custom links. I'm currently working with a bar manufacturer to build me a heavier bar (1" instead of 7/8"). The combination gives me a good balance of handling and predictable trail manners.
I’ve got a gen 3 taco I want to do this to, it might be interesting to see a video of your results so others (me) can copy it haha
I was just talking about the suspension travel with my GF re: solid axles vs. independent suspension. The amount of effort that went into making this video is phenomenal. I applaud you good sir!
Great analysis, as always. Another thing I would like to know is; How much added stress is put on other parts, and what new weaknesses are added by removing the sway bar. I know the CV axles and ball joints are exposed to much more articulation and strain, but I don't know by how much. And, it would be good to know by how much the strain is amplified on these parts at the extremes of travel. As in, CVs aren't as strong at full-lock steering and droop or compression of the suspension -- but Toyota likely designed these tolerances with the sway bar or KDSS in place. It would be interesting to learn more about the amount of stress removal of the sway bar puts on these other critical parts, in relation to what they were designed for. The number of Yotas being recovered offroad due to balljoint and CV axle failure is pretty significant, so I suspect there's a tie to these other parts being impacted with removal of the sway bar.
I have been running with out a front swaybar on my 3g4r since I had it and I like how it handles on road. After I installed my 3” lift I left the rears disconnected to see how it felt and it was too unstable for me.
Front disconnected , rear connected is perfect for me and I’m glad there’s some data to back that up now haha
Love your videos. Thank you!!
THANK YOU for actually answering this question. I have no idea why nobody else has bothered testing this. I've been recommending my friends remove their front sway bars on their Toyota trucks for off-road use. I've removed it from my Sequoia and while the truck definitely leans more with more cornering g force, as long as I drive like a "normal" person it's totally fine. Frankly, the Sequoia handled rather well so I simply cornered faster than necessary with the sway bar on. With it removed, I concur with all your results here. It performs notably better off-road but I do have to corner more cautiously on the road. Not a problem.
I have a great real world example of this, I removed my front sway bar in my 06 dodge magnum as I live in an area with very bad roads, instantly I felt a noticeable difference in handling that felt better on bendy rough roads. I will admit on the highway at higher speeds it's much easier to notice a lack of stability but for my application it works and I have no plans of reinstalling it
This is the best technical off road TH-cam channel bar none. Sooooo good.
An excellent video - thorough, well tested and well justified. Thanks a load for this! Suspension is so much more complicated than people realise (me included): stiffness per corner, ride height, front to rear balance, roll centers, etc. etc. It's a mine field for anyone except a trained engineer! This did a great job of demonstrating complex interactions in "layman's terms".
For on road driving, I find most people say they can't feel a difference. This is probably true for normal driving. The problem is in abnormal situations like swerving, emergency breaking, and sliding etc. This is where there will be a huge difference when the sway bars are removed. Ask yourself, if you can't feel a difference, why not? Sway bars are there for a VERY good reason. So be dam careful!
Disconnect for off road and then reconnect for on road is the best solution in my opinion.
It's not just about articulation.. Removing front swaybar from an IFS vehicle gives you truly independent suspension, and thus, a dramatically improved ride quality over bumps.
Yeah and will roll over like m151
@@CHMernerner Nice opinion, got it from a TH-cam comment?
@@wolfgang_h3t it's just a joke. I know Front sway bar delete is far less dangerous than rear sway bar delete and Significantly increase Articulation on many IFS vehicles.
I'm currently driving a jeep commander, same platform as the grand cherokee from 2005-2010, they are solid rear axle and independent front suspension. your videos have been very informative with how isf front ends work. Quality videos man, keep em coming.
I daily drive a 2004 4Runner V6: firmer front springs, stock rear springs, approximately 1.5" lift, generic KYB gas dampers, upgraded bumpstops...and NO swaybars. It rides better on and off road, it handles only slightly worse, more traction off road and tows the same. If you JUST remove the swaybars on a stock vehicle, it sucks and is a bit unerving. However, with some thought put into the total package it makes a noticeable positive difference and a great well rounded dual sport truck.
Great video as usual. I learn a lot from you.
Every video you post challenges my existing understandings, and you always show the results/data to back up your claims. I LOVE your channel and all the content you put out!
The biggest reason to remove the front sway bar on ifs is to get true independant suspension, running rear extended links also helps retain the rear swaybar with max flex, my fj runs a true long travel rear with stock sway bar on extended links
is your rear suspension not binding at the link? I took mine out for the first time this past weekend and i believe I was hearing it bind. I do have a stiffer sway bar than you do.
I see my photo at 8:37 😁 what a pleasant surprise! So I currently have an FJ Cruiser with front ext. travel coilovers and a rear long travel kit. Since it is my daily driver, I run with a front sway bar on but no rear, that way I can have the unrestricted articulation back there for the long travel as spoken of in the video. But what an enlightening investigation! I never expected the articulation for the front to improve with only the rear sway bar on. Makes me want to go home and take off the front but reinstall the rear with longer sway bar links! But at the same time I know how it feels to drive without the front on, so it is a trade off for sure.
Haha thanks for your photo! Unfortunately you cannot fit a long enough sway bar endlinks for your long travel shocks. The end link will be so long that it hit the lower link during compression (it becomes the bump stop essentially). So using the longest possible end links like mine, you will give up some down travel
@@TinkerersAdventure I had a buddy from the forums make me a set of rear quick disconnect sway bar links for long travel but I ran into your same issue. On full flex the custom sway bar links hit my rear lower link. So which rear links do you have exactly? I assume they are not OEM length but still not super long. After watching your video I do want to try out running the rear sway bar with longer links and removing the front sway bar. And maybe I will even get the stiffer rear sway bar while I'm at it!
How did I get sucked into this video? I drive a 911.
It’s your sign to join us in the off-road community. We welcome you. -c6 & tacoma owner
Run what you got is the first rule of offroading! I drive a 2000 accord! Lmao
There's the 911 dakar
Has it got swaybars?
@@heathmurphy3735 nope, and the accords lower center of gravity wven with 10” of clearence makes it comfortable to daily withought them too.
I have heard keeping the rear sway bar on helps but didn't really notice it until I switched to a Jeep with the disconnecting front sway bar, I leave the rear on and disconnect the front and get amazing results! Great video.
All your videos have been great help. All your data and simple explanation of the IFS is the best I’ve seen.
I would like to see a panhard correction video from this channel.
Really great video. I like how you presented the data. My first car was a 61 beetle. Small front sway bar only. Terminal understeer.
Added a larger front sway bar and rear sway bar and it drove flatter and was more responsive.
Removed front sway bar when I went to a more modern front suspension. Handling dry was fine. But on a slippery crowned 2 lane road, passing another car, it started fishtailing then did a 180. Surprising and dangerous. I realized it was due to having too much stiffness on the rear. I'd be interested how yours handles on a wet and dry skid pad. Better to find any unexpected habits in testing than in traffic.
Awesome video once again. Confirming what I measured on my Bronco, keeping the rear increases the travel most situations.
Rear sway bar for sure if you pull a trailer as well.
A sway bar transfers force from one wheel to the other, so your test results make a lot of sense.
Man every video I watch from you confirms me more more and more… thanks god for made me find the channel of this guy!
As always great video and info
As much as I like off roading and off road content, it gets monotonous watching variations of the same thing on every channel. But your content is unique and interesting. Keep ‘em coming!
What a fantastic channel! I’m a software engineer with a 2022 Bronco Badlands, so some of the concepts apply, but it would be great to see this kind of data-driven approach on my vehicle. I’ll keep watching as it’s been very educational. Keep up the cool videos!
I love the analytical perspective vs urban offroad legend. Thanks Kai.
Great video. KDSS and stock suspension on our GX460 has been excellent. Same for the KDSS 4runners. Thank you for your video
I daily drive my FJ Cruiser with no front or rear sway bars. Has improved the ride quality immensely, doesn’t make the vehicle floppy on the Highway, and I tow a huge trailer full of racing equipment.
The improvements both off road and in the urban jungle of St Louis, along with gravel back roads, cannot be denied.
I always leave the rear sway bar on my H3, and disconnect or remove the front for really rough roads. Keeping the rear installed indeed helps balance the articulation more evenly between front and rear, which actually maximizes stability and comfort.
its important to note that front/rear stiffness balance for road manners is important. Dramatically reducing the front stiffness can create a strong oversteer tendency, which is obviously not desirable on tall vehicles. The safer on road setup is to remove the rear to get miles of understeer. OR better yet, disconnectable front sway bar.
You can’t disconnect the front sway bar on Toyota truck IFS, if you disconnect but don’t remove it, the sway bar will make contact with your CV axles while turning and destroy the outer boot at minimum, or wreck the inner bearings at worst. Ask me how I found that out.
@TK63636 how did you find out?
@@chrisscahel1204 😅
@TK63636 i really want to know because I replaced my end links and the new end links were wrecked in short order so I'm split between replacing them again or removing the whole sway bar. But it is also my daily driver in Colorado.
@ Ah you weren’t being sarcastic. I removed my sway bar entirely. Can’t notice any difference in handling whatsoever tbh. Significantly better articulation off road. Just take it off and drive safely with plenty of distance on the highway between you and whoever is in front of you, you’ll be fine. Leave the rear on.
I am a jeeper but I watch your videos as they are very informative automotively speaking. Keep it up 🙌
I really appreciate your honest reporting and unbiased views about 4x4ing products and mods
I would say weight distribution over front and rear axles is also important. Loaded pick up like Tacoma will tend to stay with both rear wheels on the ground and lifting a front wheel. In this case it may turn out that removing rear sway bar can help a lot.
One of the best channels on TH-cam. Thanks for the info!
Auto manufacturers make most all their vehicles under steer for safety reasons. They use a massive front sway bar to accomplish this because it’s inexpensive to do but bad for flex and getting loose.
Awesome video, testing, and presentation. Thank you
Best videos on the net for information on vehicles. Cuts through all the opinions and ill-informed with proper information gained from hard work and actually trying. Thanks for the all the videos!
In the track racing world, when you add a sway bar (or increase the stiffness), you reduce the spring rates.
This gives a little bit more comfort.
In my 300TDi Defender, I run without sway bars front and rear, but with beefed up "rally style valved" shock absorbers. Pretty nice! 👌
Yep, heavy bars/light springs are what I ran on cars. Really the same on Jeeps!
Ok. I’ve just tested my truck without the front sway bar.
On road the truck clearly rolls more than with both bars connected, but honestly nothing scary, even pushing on corners on country road.
However, off-road the improvement is massive, in comfort, terrain copy capability and articulation.
I’ve measured 7,15” of articulation of the front IFS, which is a massive improvement vs stock configuration.
Rear articulation now is 12”. But the truck was empty so the bump stop was far away from the axle. Which means that a stiffer rear sway bar combined with the constant load I will carry in short time I was have still more articulation, less body roll on-road and a better balance FR-RR.
My truck is a Nissan Navara 2020 (European Frontier with coil suspension all around).
I dont have anything with ifs, but I always enjoy learning more about suspension function and this was a very well put together video thank you!
TH-cam always suggests the best quality of nerd material in the world, love it. Great content buddy🫡
Sway bars are good as long as they don’t bind, I just machine a bunch of material off them to soften them up. You can also tweak the roll stiffness front to rear relationship to your preference this way.
Absolutely phenomenal. Thanks for tackling so many relevant and misunderstood topics. I’m happy because the front off rear on w/extended links is what I landed on from my own trail experiences and now o have numbers to throw in my buddy’s faces lol. Honestly though I assumed i was still giving up more flex.
Sweet!. Removed front sway bar years ago after first trip to Ouray CO. Much better offroad, but lots more sway on the street. It was tolerable. I just ordered the last sway bar from Summit. Amazon was out. Sorry, no amaz kickback. Also got the extended links. Can't wait to try it on upcoming trip to Big Bend.
It'd be interesting to see you do this with 100 series Land Cruisers. With the torsion bars would you see as much improvement with the front disconnected?
I am also curious to see the results with a 100. The front has such little travel to begin with that I have been running a sway-bar free rig for a while to gain rear flex. I honestly did not notice a difference in highway travel with and without the rear sway bar but like Kai said, that's very subjective
@@mails5054 They are hefty, about 5400 curb and if you start adding armor etc they get real heavy real fast.
@@mails5054 The land cruiser doesn't use coil springs in the front like every other Toyota IFS, it uses torsion bars, which are beefier but allow for less articulation.
@@mails5054 First off calling someone stupid when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about makes you look like a fool. I never said the 100 series doesn't use IFS, I said it uses torsion bars instead of coil springs. There are different types of springs if you weren't aware, coil, torsion, leaf etc. Sway bars are a type of torsion bar but the actual suspension on a 100 series has two large parallel torsion bars that take the place of coil springs. You attacking me is just unbelievable. Look up info on different types of springs before you shoot your mouth off and call people stupid.
EDIT - Apparently your remark attacking me has been deleted but know that I saw it and you made yourself a fool.
@@tj_offroad sorry i have bi polar and i drank a lot cause an online friend passed away from heart diesese, nothing personal it just makes me lash out for no reason
I really like how he just presents data and leaves it up to us as to what we should do for our own rigs. Most people will say stuff like "you have to do this to do that," but Kai (sp?) knows there are many ways to skin a cat and many different applications so there is not a "one size fits all" solution.
On my patrol Wich is solid leaf axle front and rear previous owner removed the front sway bar and it did help alot on articulation
I love your engineering and data-driven approach to off-road topics. Once you put the data into context, it wasn’t surprising that the rear axle needed to be stiffened to force the stiffer front IFS to actually take on more work.
I have a 2017 Tacoma DCSB with the stage 2 Ironman FCP (3” ride height). I took my sway bar off and noticed that the new, stiffer front coilovers handle the on-road stability quite well without a sway bar. I was, however, a little disappointed that my rear axle simply flexes harder now (with the extended travel rear shocks), and my front IFS is too stiff to keep my truck level in hard flex situations.
The only bummer is that the Tacomas don’t come with a factory rear sway bar. Perhaps I should find a way to install one.
In extreme flex situations, the no-swaybar IFS does eventually do a nice job flexing to keep 4 tires on the ground, but the IFS still forces the truck body to lean away from whichever way it’s compressed.
Thanks for the videos as always!
More evidence that Asians are good at math
Your videos are like a boaring class but you seem to cover every aspect of the subject. You have gained a new follower GOOD JOB keep up the classes
Love your content man! Your approach to this type of stuff is greatly appreciated.
I can’t wait until you address headlights and how many people break the law and make driving more dangerous for everyone with incorrect light sources in their factory reflector assemblies.
On my Xterra the biggest gain other than articulation was much MUCH better transfer off objects. With the swaybar on, the wheel going off a sharp drop would get forced down very hard. With the sway off the ride is soooooo much better in all off road conditions. No more front wheel slam down. Hardly noticable on road as it's not that great handling anyway.
I agree with your analysis, i run an antirock swaybar in the rear with long travel up front and i had always thought i need a stiffer swaybar to get more out of the front long travel. I too am one of 7 ifs toyotas to conquer the Rubicon soupbowl (iconicfj included) although without any swaybar at the time and in a 2nd gen tacoma. Other factors made that obstacle possible than just swaybar and suspension. Ill be going straight axles and keeping the sway bar in the rear but may do a sway bar up front if i can package it. Love your videos, keep up the good work. I refer people to your channel when they ask questions that need visuals.
I'll guess remain the same only because I have no idea.
I'll also note a company called Apex Designs is coming out with a Toyota front sway bar quick disconnect this spring. Would love to see your thoughts
Fantastic video. I think on my 3rd gen 4runner i'll try removing the front sway bar and see how I like it.
Awesome information! I’d love to see some research of IRS vehicles like the Y62 based Armada. Especially given most of the other full size rigs other than Toyota are also now independent rear as well.
Thanks! Interesting topic. My father actually has a 2020 Y62. He's not in the US so his is a V6. But, it came factory with a rear locker.
@@TinkerersAdventure the second gen sequoia would be a good example for your channel. It’s gaining popularity as an over landing platform. I’m debating getting one myself. I’d lose the solid rear of my first gen sequoia but the extra space and the more powerful 5.7 as well as better towing make it tempting!
Great work mate 🙂
Interestingly when the Land Rover Discovery first came out in 1989, only the top trim level had a rear sway (anti-roll bar ,UK). It was several years before they added one at the front (1992 with the 5 door, 7 seat model). UK market. The Range Rover had them earlier. The RR, Disco and old Defender are basically the same mechanical stuff and a slight difference in chassis.
Rear bar will help reduce roll oversteer which on long, soft coils makes quite a difference on the road.
Another factor that is useful to think about is axle diff locks. Sway bars can help to push the weight into the stuffed wheel which can gain traction with a diff lock. At the expense of stability so risking tipping.
As in life it is all a compromise.
Cheers.
Kai, I love your channel. Some of the best Toyota-related content I could ever hope for, and super thankful for the information as I look at my recently acquired older GX460.
One thing I don’t think can be argued is the improvement of ride quality off roading (not to be confused with vehicle control) when running no sway bars at all. I only do slow speed crawling and like running no sway bars at all. My rig rocks around a lot less with no bars
Great video man. Your FJ is sick. I have a 2008 FJ cruiser with a 3-inch front lift and a 2-inch lift in the rear for context. I have always hated the body roll that this platform has. I don't see how the suspension engineers decided that the puny rear bar was adequate for even stock coil overs. I bought the Nolathane adjustable rear sway bar after watching this video. This should be the first mod that anyone does to their suspension. I wish I had done this years ago. FYI- I kept the stock front bar in place since this is a daily driver that sees traffic.
My 2001 Ford ranger has independent front suspension, with front sway bar, but no rear sway bar. I've always considered adding a rear sway bar with disconnects and adding disconnects to the front, this was very interesting
these videos you are makning on fj cruisers are amazing and really in depth. Please continue to make these. My brother and I are always in a battle with our off-roaders. He has a bronco now and I have my fj. Big comp between the two. Thanks!
love to see something this informative but with the tacoma's leaf based system.
Very interesting, because myself and many others have a serious amount of money in the front sus just to have basically stock travel because the rear does all the work.
I just found this video and I am now going to start watching all of your videos.
My truck (lifted Tundra, overlanding setup) has no rear sway bar but a front.
Front only sucks offroad, but when I take it off (NO sway bars) it has too much body roll in corners.
I need the better articulation of removing the front, but I would hope adding stronger leaf springs in the rear and adding a HD sway bar might give me a bit less body roll while still improving the front travel.
Holy shit- the hitch rack at 13:47!? You have to be kidding me. I'm surprised it even remains attached to the vehicle.
Incredible, data-driven video. Glad I stumbled onto this channel and excited to see more of your content!
Jeep Wj guy here. (Yes I love the fj and want one as well!). All my rig’s, I’ve removed the rear sway bars and the fronts. Using QD’s , for when I’m at a gatekeeper lol allowing my jeeps to have daily driving confidence.
The amount of work you did on this video is much appreciated!
Very eye-opening. I especially appreciate seeing the data. My 2004 Xterra is front IFS / rear solid axle. I've been thinking completely backward. Thank you for sharing information that I can sink my teeth into.
I have a combination of SuperSprings bump stops and a slightly heavier sway bar as well. The bump stops are supposed to make contact earlier and compress much more than factory to help control overloading and body roll when towing.
This might be the best articulation guide video for Toyotas!!
My 3rd gen Tacoma suspension is stock I added the sumo springs bump stops & it gets me right out to the campsite or lake just fine, no sagging when I'm pulling my trailer working & it doesn't body roll as much daily driving... Perfect setup for me.
Very informative and detailed video, I can't imagine how much work it was to gather all that data, well done sir! I wanted to add that sway bars can also increase traction offroad by simply increasing the spring rate on the tire (that is climbing an obstacle) and into the obstacle you are climbing over like a big rock, the opposite tire will have the opposite effect (less spring rate). In other words, gravity is pulling the tire that is not climbing downwards, but the sway bar is pulling it up which then transfers that force into the tire that is climbing and onto the rock (sway bar force is pushing the climbing tire down increasing traction or more simply put the not climbing tire is made "lighter" and the climbing tire is made "heavier"). I hope I explained that in an understanding manner. I would like to hear your thoughts on articulation gain vs some possible traction loss when removing sway bars specifically in an offroad scenario.
Body roll has been getting worse with my FJ as its setup for touring and carrying extra weight. I was worried about getting a thicker rear sway bar as I thought it’d limit my flex. This video set my worries at ease!
Pausing comment for the 4:12 mark: with the front removed and the rear still on my guess is the articulation will be somewhere in between having both on and both off. But closer to both on.
I love these data driven videos you post. Thanks for providing numbers > opinions.
So far I wanted to know exactly what a sway bar did. I know to a certain extent cuz I race radio control cars but I never really used them and I wanted to know what the difference was on a real car. You didn't amazing job in this video and answering my question and making it a thorough as possible. I got to say man bravo. Thank you for the information
I'm rolling 0 sway on my long travel taco... And only rear sway on the runner... There's a bit of roll in the runner but not uncontrollable... Thanks for your tests!
Food for thought, I have a 2007 Hilux, like the Tacoma's it has no rear swaybar, but you can buy one aftermarket. I currently have a stiffer front swaybar, but with sliding links, so I can lock them solid on the highway but just pull a pin to free up the swaybar off road.
Nissan xterra or frontier offroad community we removed the front and rear swaybars for better articulation with stiffer springs like 650lbs spring rates to reduce bodyroll
This is brilliant stuff. Definitely the most detailed I've ever seen on this topic. I'm watching from Australia, I have a Toyota Fortuner so all this is relevant information. I've also watched your other videos and have found them to be equally as well done as this. Keep up the good work.
Having DSC shocks can help a lot for handling. Removing a sway bar and adding some Low speed compression to the shocks helps add stability back on road in my experience.
That's true. Adding slow speed compression essentially make Fox's linear valving closer to digressive like the cheaper shocks. But you can still have linear valving when you need it. I wish I have Fox DSC on my FJ. My icons are digressive and I crank it all the way up for street driving.
Love these data driven videos! Fantastic as always!
Removed the rear on my 04 Land Rover, and installed quick release on the front.
I highly recommend a sway bar when u got coils in rear but when u got leafs in rear and coils upfront it’s not as critical and stick with rubber bushings to get the most articulation.
When lifting my 1st gen Tundra on 6112/5160 with 700lb springs I didn't bother reinstalling the sways. Sure it has more roll, like a boat, but nothing unmanageable and if you're on 33s or larger you probably aren't driving fast enough to really need them.
Long long time ago anti sway bars were an optional extra for some new cars and trucks. Because we drive larger vehicles, faster and more on the road, I would preference sway bars. It improves safety and control. But back in the day when we all drove on rough roads at lower speeds, a sway bar would only be fighting against the suspension and making for a harsh ride.
When I raised the suspension on my JK Sport, I obviously needed longer swaybar links, so opted for ones that disconnect on front by pulling pins out. It's easy to disconnect/reconnect when off/on-road. I haven't driven on-road with them disconnected, but a JK on 34.2s with a +2.5" behaves like a boat enough.
Another awesome video. Really wish their was a decent front disconnect for our IFS Toyotas.
I deleted the front swaybar on my 4Runner but noticed it leans a little bit on the left driver side now.
I have a 2012 Fj with a 6 inch pro comp lift with adjustable king coil-overs. Because of the 6 inch lift I had to custom the front skid plate and the front sway bar did not fit. But I never notice the difference and I do not drive it on the road as a sports car, lol. I was talked into the 6 inch lift and that was a waist of $2,200. It makes 35 fit in without a lot of trimming and banging but there are other ways as I learned in time to get around this. Definitely could of used your knowledge back when I started my build.
You have the best info. Thank you for taking the mystery out of these mods.
I think KDSS is the best of both worlds.
It just depends on year of vehicle for me. 86-94 4runners the torsion bars are so stiff in the front the sway bar only helps 10% on road. Just trying to squeeze any travel out of it really. My 2000 4runner was fine, never felt the need to remove it, flex was good enough. My current 83 pickup, remove sway bar and pan hards front, and sway bar rear. You need all the articulation you can get of both axles, and they are stiff enough, you hardly notice.
Great work! Love your videos, Kai! My FJC has the sway only in the rear with long travel in the front and I've run it that way for years even before long travel was installed. I'll look for that heavier bar.
Wow it's the original FJ Cthulhu! Glad to see you here Rich