The fact that Ranni had to slay her own flesh to "escape" her fate from the two fingers does support the theory that all of Marika's descendants have the ability to meld and fuse with another being like her and Radagon did, and later did again with the Elden Ring itself as we see on his bossfight, that ability made Queen Marika the vessel permanent of the Elden Ring, therefore her tittle as The Eternal and why only the only endings that ignore or "banish" her (Frenzy and Moon) don't need a mending rune, they are not continuing her cycle with her on it, they destroy it or make a new path. This also goes to show that all of the Golden Lineage share that Melding ability, Rhykard with the God-Devouring Snake, Messmer with the Abyssal Snake, Malenia with the Rot, Mikaela and Saint Trina, Godwin and the fragments of the Rune of Death that was on the Black Knives, Godrick and all the things he Grafted to himself and of course, Radahn's and Mohg corpses, the only odd ones could be Morgott and Ranni, but there's more evidence that supports the theory than goes against it. Great video, you got me to subscribe. Edit: I see the Hornsent use of the jars as a way to "force" a higher being like one would reach a number one by one, needing to count many 1's to reach the number needed to obtain an Empyrean, my theory is that the results of the jars are forced to meld again with other higher-value results, like there could be in the biggest jars inside Bonny Gaol. Edit, again: There's also the thing that most of the Golden Lineage having really high charisma, maybe a secondary effect of that melding, we have Messmer, Radahn and Malenia with their soldiers and Godwin with the dragons and pretty much everyone, i don't think Miquella could be here since we now know how he "gains" affection.
In vers 1.0 the Neumen and the Nox are both referred to as Marika's descendants, likely indicating that they are either the same, or that the Nox are the "black sheep" of the same family that have been banished underground for shenanigans. Edit to add that in 1.0 the jars items reference ancient research into achieving eternal life. In other words, Jars were ALWAYS a means to create an eternal god/dess.
Don’t forget that the Japanese term used for saint is Miko, a Shinto shrine maiden famous in ancient Japan for practicing ecstatic dancing and cavorting to be filled with the spirit of a Kami and serve as an oracle for things related to that Kami. This helps explain a bit more what the Hornsent wanted from Marika, and how she changed the rules (check out the snakeskin in Bonny village).
Personally, I think Miquella becoming a God without an outer god attached might just be why we can take him on. But also, he became a God of Compassion. Most other outer gods were ambivalent, or at least indifferent, to the Lands Between. And Miquella succeeded where Marika failed at shedding every part of himself until nothing remained. Unalloyed Gold. Compassion. A god all his own. The first of its kind, and likely why a lowly tarnished can conquer him.
great video ^^ im glad marika being a jar saint is catching on, i think fromsoft focused on it way too much to be anything else. also romina being named saint of the bud has been glazed over so much, i feel like that is a critical part of the story. iirc that is the only other time in game that the term saint is used (besides st trina).
The Japanese text, as far as I'm informed, implies that the 'jar saints' were much more similar to the living jars in the main game, basically amounting to bad people being stuffed in a jar, the shaman being used as a bonding agent, and the jar then coming to life as a being with a purer spirit than that of the people stuffed into it. The insides of the jar were never meant to emerge from it again, the jar itself is the saint.
I've never quite understood why so many things are called Gods / Demi-Gods... when none of them have even remotely the power of what most would think a God would be able to do... Marika as a God shouldn't have had any dissidence or it should have been stopped immediately. Why would a God waste thousands upon thousands of soldiers fighting a war? A God should be able to end the war with the snap of fingers, not to mention a God should have been able to beat a single castle of mages, but instead had to resort to disguised diplomacy to crush the castle's power... Gods in Elden Ring seem more like Kings/Queens with a little extra power bestowed upon them but they're still pretty much mortal. No mortal should realistically be able to kill a proper God. Yet we slay 2 supposed Gods... It's kind of like Elden Lord, it's a meaningless title, you're Lord of nothing it's a placeholder name to make people feel important or whatever. The title of God seems pretty meaningless... Also what is Miquella the God of??? He seemingly has no Outer God or Elden Beast like creature backing him. Is he simply supposed to take over for Marika with the Greater Will? So many oddities.
Miquella's eternal youth is a mere physical representation of his true curse; Nascency. Also considered Stagnation, nothing Miquella ever sets out to do will succeed. He couldn't cure Malenia, he couldn't revive Godwyn, his Haligtree never grew to rival the Erdtree, and so on... And considering his ethereal form upon ascending to Godhood, it may be possible to connect him to The Formless Mother, who Mohg worshipped. One theory I saw was that The Formless Mother doesn't exist, and that she is merely an illusion Miquella created whilst charming Mohg to do his bidding. As for Godwyn, I'll be commenting my two sense on another video regarding him.
@livingjarcletus You mentioned how all of Marika's children were cursed, possibly inheriting fragments of her jarring she didn't want to accept, Miquella's curse being eternal youth You also mentioned how being an Empyrean means having the ability to meld one's flesh with an Outer God's. I was saying that given the nature of Miquella's curse, his ethereal form upon ascending to godhood, and his powerful blood, the Outer God he could potentially be connected to was The Formless Mother, since you *also* mentioned you weren't sure which one he could've been connected to But I was also just mentioning a theory I heard where Miquella and The Formless Mother are one in the same
dude she DOES exist, how else would you be able to have blood incants and blood ashes of war? also because in the dlc we have bloodfiends who have contacted the formless mother directly.
I'm by no means a lore expert but I really enjoy this theory. Especially the implications for the dual personage of Marika / Radigon. It causes me to imagine Radigon as a manifestation of a separate person or persons dominant enough to coexist as a conscious entity within Marika and explains why they seem to possess separate and often opposing wills. Both are prisoner to the other and the Elden Ring. I also think the implications for Marika's children are interesting as well. I am a fan of the theory that the Player Tarnished Character is also a child of Marika and your theory explains how we are able to merge with the outer god of chaos. I often wish there were more endings like this like a rot order ending for example. Really Good theory though! I'm not sure specifically how well it holds water but I think it is viable from my limited view. Either way, great video!
According to the Japanese use of the jars, Living saint just means “good person” so its living saint like someone would say “my mother is a living saint”. The jar lore in the core game matches this, the jars were shamans and criminals stuffed inside to make the peaceful jars you see in the core game. The english translation error did some damage, the jars are a form of criminal rehabilitation
This ignores the evidence, archeological and otherwise, that the hornsent were trying to create something. I would imagine you’re correct about the criminal punishment aspect given the dialogue of the ghost npc in gaols…however, the hornsent had ulterior motives for jarring shamans. They were trying to create something (in my opinion, saints/empyreans). But regardless where you fall on what the goal was, the evidence that the hornsent were trying to create something is strong
@@livingjarcletus Let's address the Living Saint Issue. The problem is that the English Tranlsations didn't clarify that basedon Japanese text, they meant "Good person" as in "don't stuff me into a jar, I'll live life as a good person" but because of that error, people think "Living Saint" is something of a title, like Demi-God. Now let's talk about the translations errors for Shaman. The Ancestral Shaman's from the base game, their original Japanese descriptions as them as Priests. The Shamans stuffed into jars? Medicine, healer, that's a better translation. Now Marika's Shaman people? comes from thee incorrect translation of a Miko, a woman in Japan that performs soothsaying and healing type roles for the spirit. Three separate groups of people, each one different, using the term "shaman" and let's be clear, nothing indicated that the spirit was a woman, as the term Miko would imply. The Hornsent value brutal paths of redemption and shun excessive pleasure. This is their culture, rather than a science project, and theonly indication of something different going on is the snake skin at the village.
Makes a lot of sense that Marika was the success, but instead of being a saint that ushered the Hornsent into further enlightenment/prosperity she turned on them and viewed them as enemies. The thru logic of Saint/ Empyrean tracks. Good work!
Pondered this for a little, and it could be, but i dont think so. I think the abilities they have are inherent. Which is why the hornsent targeted them
Fromsoft showed us very little in form of cinematic visual evidence but they did show Marika walking up to the gates of divinity as herself and not a Jar. I don’t think she was jarred. Especially considering it’s heavily implied to be a punishment. What does punishment have to do with preparing someone for ascension? And if it is needed, then literally what tf did they expect her to do once becoming a literal god. A Shadow realm would have been the LEAST of my fears idk
She wouldnt be a jar when she ascended given the process would not have been complete. You are absolutely correct that it was used as a punishment, ie, the ghost npc dialogue in bonny gaol. However, in jarring shamans the hornsent had ulterior motives. This is made clear in the bonny village itself by the ghost npc at the whipping hut and the tooth whip item description. It was cruel, but the WERE trying to create something (in my opinion, saints/empyreans). However the answer to that question is speculative and what i cover in the video. But the evidence that the hornsent were trying to create something new is very clear
Finally, someone said that Marika and Radagon had melded together. Have been waiting for a long time to hear someone say that. Could be outside the jar, though. Someone she actually chose to be melded with voluntarily, for love. Maybe the only one she melded with. And maybe she was never jarred. She is not a monstrosity.
I think she’s the ideal outcome of the process. Still a monstrosity. Like the idea of her melding with radagon pre jar, but im almost certain she went through the process. She “betrayed” the hornsent, because they saw this as a gift
@livingjarcletus Different process, maybe? Cause where are all the lumps and dregs of flesh, arms, heads, viscera, etc that are melded with the jar victims? If she was jarred she would have those too. When she shapeshifts to Radagon, it is a harmonious, easy shift, and the monstrosities don't shape-shift (I wouldn't consider their grab attack a shapeshift). Perhaps this difference could indicate that the melding with Radagon was willfull, like a marriage, and the monstrosities were left deformed because it happened against their will, in a jar. Also, if I were jarred, I wouldn't alter and incorporate the jars in my new order, that sh17 would totally C-PTSD me as soon as I laid my eyes upon a jolly jar walking around. 😅
If she was jared then she’s innocent in all this, which is why I think she wasn’t Jared, but was spared as an empyrean. If she was Jared, No matter what she’s done, then she’s innocent. An amalgam of who knows how many tormented people is too insane to be held accountable
I dont agree. Your matter of circumstance doesnt excuse crimes. Justification for your actions dont make them JUST actions. We can pity the victim, but genocide is genocide
I just thought about this, but when you find Marika in the erdtree what's her body look like? It looks like old crumbling pottery. Sorry idk if he covers this, but as soon as the video started and he stated his theory the Marika looking like broken pottery hit me.
Great video, subscribed, especially for that Godwyn video ;) Jack the Mimic thinks Godwyn is not the son of Godfrey also. Some people mentioned the Japanese translation of Jar Saint being a punishment, whic hsi good to consider, but I would like to add that we see some non-horned beings venerated: Midra was a scholar, Nanaya looks like royality and dawns the spiral hair/hood, Marika having golden bracelets, and it is a betrayal so they were alligned at one point. Even if the Jarring ritual wasn't to make a saint but to turn criminals into good people, it still doesn't change the fact that it is possible that a successful creation gets to be part of their society again, and it implies that Marika is part of this (those statues, merged with radagon, and the revenge for her people). We then have Enir-Ilim which has the goal to reaching the divine/the crucible, with those statues all the way to the top of it. Obviously something was going down here, Marika was a part of it, and betrayed them. Again, keep up the good work. I think Godwyn is connected to the dragons, and the GEQ via Destined Death. I think Romina being a centipede connects to this too. I think the forager brood showing that fermentation is a good part of rot links somehow. I also think the Blue Dancer relates to GEQ, just like we have blue dancers on Dominula village (dawning a godskin like symbol on the cape) along with Yallow caped dancers (erdtree symbol).
I found the shaman village very visually dull tbh and don’t know what I missed for you to think it was more visually stunning than, say, the Cerulean Coast for comparison.
The fact that Ranni had to slay her own flesh to "escape" her fate from the two fingers does support the theory that all of Marika's descendants have the ability to meld and fuse with another being like her and Radagon did, and later did again with the Elden Ring itself as we see on his bossfight, that ability made Queen Marika the vessel permanent of the Elden Ring, therefore her tittle as The Eternal and why only the only endings that ignore or "banish" her (Frenzy and Moon) don't need a mending rune, they are not continuing her cycle with her on it, they destroy it or make a new path.
This also goes to show that all of the Golden Lineage share that Melding ability, Rhykard with the God-Devouring Snake, Messmer with the Abyssal Snake, Malenia with the Rot, Mikaela and Saint Trina, Godwin and the fragments of the Rune of Death that was on the Black Knives, Godrick and all the things he Grafted to himself and of course, Radahn's and Mohg corpses, the only odd ones could be Morgott and Ranni, but there's more evidence that supports the theory than goes against it.
Great video, you got me to subscribe.
Edit: I see the Hornsent use of the jars as a way to "force" a higher being like one would reach a number one by one, needing to count many 1's to reach the number needed to obtain an Empyrean, my theory is that the results of the jars are forced to meld again with other higher-value results, like there could be in the biggest jars inside Bonny Gaol.
Edit, again: There's also the thing that most of the Golden Lineage having really high charisma, maybe a secondary effect of that melding, we have Messmer, Radahn and Malenia with their soldiers and Godwin with the dragons and pretty much everyone, i don't think Miquella could be here since we now know how he "gains" affection.
In vers 1.0 the Neumen and the Nox are both referred to as Marika's descendants, likely indicating that they are either the same, or that the Nox are the "black sheep" of the same family that have been banished underground for shenanigans.
Edit to add that in 1.0 the jars items reference ancient research into achieving eternal life. In other words, Jars were ALWAYS a means to create an eternal god/dess.
Howdy, my name's Cletus and this is my brother Meatus, and this is newborn baby brother Fetus.
You are too weak to ever Beatus.
Don't get mad and try and Tweetus either.
Don’t forget that the Japanese term used for saint is Miko, a Shinto shrine maiden famous in ancient Japan for practicing ecstatic dancing and cavorting to be filled with the spirit of a Kami and serve as an oracle for things related to that Kami. This helps explain a bit more what the Hornsent wanted from Marika, and how she changed the rules (check out the snakeskin in Bonny village).
Personally, I think Miquella becoming a God without an outer god attached might just be why we can take him on. But also, he became a God of Compassion. Most other outer gods were ambivalent, or at least indifferent, to the Lands Between. And Miquella succeeded where Marika failed at shedding every part of himself until nothing remained. Unalloyed Gold. Compassion. A god all his own. The first of its kind, and likely why a lowly tarnished can conquer him.
great video ^^ im glad marika being a jar saint is catching on, i think fromsoft focused on it way too much to be anything else.
also romina being named saint of the bud has been glazed over so much, i feel like that is a critical part of the story. iirc that is the only other time in game that the term saint is used (besides st trina).
Strongly agree about romina. I think the implications of the word saint are made pretty clear in the dlc.
The Japanese text, as far as I'm informed, implies that the 'jar saints' were much more similar to the living jars in the main game, basically amounting to bad people being stuffed in a jar, the shaman being used as a bonding agent, and the jar then coming to life as a being with a purer spirit than that of the people stuffed into it. The insides of the jar were never meant to emerge from it again, the jar itself is the saint.
I've never quite understood why so many things are called Gods / Demi-Gods... when none of them have even remotely the power of what most would think a God would be able to do... Marika as a God shouldn't have had any dissidence or it should have been stopped immediately. Why would a God waste thousands upon thousands of soldiers fighting a war? A God should be able to end the war with the snap of fingers, not to mention a God should have been able to beat a single castle of mages, but instead had to resort to disguised diplomacy to crush the castle's power... Gods in Elden Ring seem more like Kings/Queens with a little extra power bestowed upon them but they're still pretty much mortal. No mortal should realistically be able to kill a proper God. Yet we slay 2 supposed Gods... It's kind of like Elden Lord, it's a meaningless title, you're Lord of nothing it's a placeholder name to make people feel important or whatever. The title of God seems pretty meaningless... Also what is Miquella the God of??? He seemingly has no Outer God or Elden Beast like creature backing him. Is he simply supposed to take over for Marika with the Greater Will? So many oddities.
I agree with a zillion things you said, likely one of the best lore video on elden ring today
Thank you for the kind words. Please share the video, i hope more see it!
Miquella's eternal youth is a mere physical representation of his true curse; Nascency.
Also considered Stagnation, nothing Miquella ever sets out to do will succeed.
He couldn't cure Malenia, he couldn't revive Godwyn, his Haligtree never grew to rival the Erdtree, and so on...
And considering his ethereal form upon ascending to Godhood, it may be possible to connect him to The Formless Mother, who Mohg worshipped.
One theory I saw was that The Formless Mother doesn't exist, and that she is merely an illusion Miquella created whilst charming Mohg to do his bidding.
As for Godwyn, I'll be commenting my two sense on another video regarding him.
Not sure what this has to do with my video but thanks for the comment! Ive seen this as well and agree
@livingjarcletus
You mentioned how all of Marika's children were cursed, possibly inheriting fragments of her jarring she didn't want to accept, Miquella's curse being eternal youth
You also mentioned how being an Empyrean means having the ability to meld one's flesh with an Outer God's.
I was saying that given the nature of Miquella's curse, his ethereal form upon ascending to godhood, and his powerful blood, the Outer God he could potentially be connected to was The Formless Mother, since you *also* mentioned you weren't sure which one he could've been connected to
But I was also just mentioning a theory I heard where Miquella and The Formless Mother are one in the same
dude she DOES exist, how else would you be able to have blood incants and blood ashes of war? also because in the dlc we have bloodfiends who have contacted the formless mother directly.
I'm by no means a lore expert but I really enjoy this theory. Especially the implications for the dual personage of Marika / Radigon. It causes me to imagine Radigon as a manifestation of a separate person or persons dominant enough to coexist as a conscious entity within Marika and explains why they seem to possess separate and often opposing wills. Both are prisoner to the other and the Elden Ring. I also think the implications for Marika's children are interesting as well. I am a fan of the theory that the Player Tarnished Character is also a child of Marika and your theory explains how we are able to merge with the outer god of chaos. I often wish there were more endings like this like a rot order ending for example. Really Good theory though! I'm not sure specifically how well it holds water but I think it is viable from my limited view. Either way, great video!
According to the Japanese use of the jars, Living saint just means “good person” so its living saint like someone would say “my mother is a living saint”.
The jar lore in the core game matches this, the jars were shamans and criminals stuffed inside to make the peaceful jars you see in the core game.
The english translation error did some damage, the jars are a form of criminal rehabilitation
This ignores the evidence, archeological and otherwise, that the hornsent were trying to create something. I would imagine you’re correct about the criminal punishment aspect given the dialogue of the ghost npc in gaols…however, the hornsent had ulterior motives for jarring shamans. They were trying to create something (in my opinion, saints/empyreans). But regardless where you fall on what the goal was, the evidence that the hornsent were trying to create something is strong
@@livingjarcletus Let's address the Living Saint Issue. The problem is that the English Tranlsations didn't clarify that basedon Japanese text, they meant "Good person" as in "don't stuff me into a jar, I'll live life as a good person" but because of that error, people think "Living Saint" is something of a title, like Demi-God.
Now let's talk about the translations errors for Shaman. The Ancestral Shaman's from the base game, their original Japanese descriptions as them as Priests. The Shamans stuffed into jars? Medicine, healer, that's a better translation. Now Marika's Shaman people? comes from thee incorrect translation of a Miko, a woman in Japan that performs soothsaying and healing type roles for the spirit.
Three separate groups of people, each one different, using the term "shaman" and let's be clear, nothing indicated that the spirit was a woman, as the term Miko would imply. The Hornsent value brutal paths of redemption and shun excessive pleasure. This is their culture, rather than a science project, and theonly indication of something different going on is the snake skin at the village.
Makes a lot of sense that Marika was the success, but instead of being a saint that ushered the Hornsent into further enlightenment/prosperity she turned on them and viewed them as enemies. The thru logic of Saint/ Empyrean tracks. Good work!
Great video 👍
Best lore video ever.
Mmm. Having finished the video I like the final theories and thoughts too.
Rhe nox, the numen, are the new men that survived the jaring
Pondered this for a little, and it could be, but i dont think so. I think the abilities they have are inherent. Which is why the hornsent targeted them
Fromsoft showed us very little in form of cinematic visual evidence but they did show Marika walking up to the gates of divinity as herself and not a Jar. I don’t think she was jarred. Especially considering it’s heavily implied to be a punishment. What does punishment have to do with preparing someone for ascension? And if it is needed, then literally what tf did they expect her to do once becoming a literal god. A Shadow realm would have been the LEAST of my fears idk
She wouldnt be a jar when she ascended given the process would not have been complete. You are absolutely correct that it was used as a punishment, ie, the ghost npc dialogue in bonny gaol. However, in jarring shamans the hornsent had ulterior motives. This is made clear in the bonny village itself by the ghost npc at the whipping hut and the tooth whip item description. It was cruel, but the WERE trying to create something (in my opinion, saints/empyreans). However the answer to that question is speculative and what i cover in the video. But the evidence that the hornsent were trying to create something new is very clear
interesting theory
Finally, someone said that Marika and Radagon had melded together. Have been waiting for a long time to hear someone say that. Could be outside the jar, though. Someone she actually chose to be melded with voluntarily, for love. Maybe the only one she melded with. And maybe she was never jarred. She is not a monstrosity.
I think she’s the ideal outcome of the process. Still a monstrosity. Like the idea of her melding with radagon pre jar, but im almost certain she went through the process. She “betrayed” the hornsent, because they saw this as a gift
@livingjarcletus Different process, maybe? Cause where are all the lumps and dregs of flesh, arms, heads, viscera, etc that are melded with the jar victims? If she was jarred she would have those too. When she shapeshifts to Radagon, it is a harmonious, easy shift, and the monstrosities don't shape-shift (I wouldn't consider their grab attack a shapeshift). Perhaps this difference could indicate that the melding with Radagon was willfull, like a marriage, and the monstrosities were left deformed because it happened against their will, in a jar.
Also, if I were jarred, I wouldn't alter and incorporate the jars in my new order, that sh17 would totally C-PTSD me as soon as I laid my eyes upon a jolly jar walking around. 😅
If she was jared then she’s innocent in all this, which is why I think she wasn’t Jared, but was spared as an empyrean. If she was Jared, No matter what she’s done, then she’s innocent. An amalgam of who knows how many tormented people is too insane to be held accountable
I dont agree. Your matter of circumstance doesnt excuse crimes. Justification for your actions dont make them JUST actions. We can pity the victim, but genocide is genocide
Well as they say in writing show don’t tell
@livingjarcletus To be honest I am starting to think the saint for marika is her other self the Gloam Eyed Queen.
I just thought about this, but when you find Marika in the erdtree what's her body look like? It looks like old crumbling pottery.
Sorry idk if he covers this, but as soon as the video started and he stated his theory the Marika looking like broken pottery hit me.
Haha i do, i mention it at the end. Along with lots of other evidence! Thanks for watching
Dna spiral
so... what is a god in elden ring?
12:30
12:34
Great video, subscribed, especially for that Godwyn video ;) Jack the Mimic thinks Godwyn is not the son of Godfrey also.
Some people mentioned the Japanese translation of Jar Saint being a punishment, whic hsi good to consider, but I would like to add that we see some non-horned beings venerated: Midra was a scholar, Nanaya looks like royality and dawns the spiral hair/hood, Marika having golden bracelets, and it is a betrayal so they were alligned at one point. Even if the Jarring ritual wasn't to make a saint but to turn criminals into good people, it still doesn't change the fact that it is possible that a successful creation gets to be part of their society again, and it implies that Marika is part of this (those statues, merged with radagon, and the revenge for her people). We then have Enir-Ilim which has the goal to reaching the divine/the crucible, with those statues all the way to the top of it. Obviously something was going down here, Marika was a part of it, and betrayed them.
Again, keep up the good work.
I think Godwyn is connected to the dragons, and the GEQ via Destined Death. I think Romina being a centipede connects to this too. I think the forager brood showing that fermentation is a good part of rot links somehow. I also think the Blue Dancer relates to GEQ, just like we have blue dancers on Dominula village (dawning a godskin like symbol on the cape) along with Yallow caped dancers (erdtree symbol).
Thanks for the kind words and awesome comment. Speaking to godwyn video, its made and will be coming out monday. Thanks for sub
O, to be type O
Trina..tell me more, and maybe im already.oh maybe im me and my sister? Im two it seems one m one f
I found the shaman village very visually dull tbh and don’t know what I missed for you to think it was more visually stunning than, say, the Cerulean Coast for comparison.
The revelations
What armor is that?