Shaman village is probably my favourite area in a souls game ever, no joke. Before it would have been Leyndell or Anor Londo or Central Yharnam or something like that but.. just getting to see where the whole lore of where Elden Ring started? The beautiful yet eerie silence? The scenery that looks beautiful yet abandoned? The whole tragedy of the Shamans, subjected to the worst fate imaginable for no reason, and the Shaman who became a god to get her revenge, only to realise it was too late and that she gave her life away to a cosmic horror for nothing, and her dream of a deathless paradise free of her past became a nightmare of its own. It’s all conveyed so well. It doesn’t really redeem Marika but it does humanise her and adds so much to the base game also.
On my second play through, you are so right, top tier play in any game ever, the music, the slow down, the only unbroken place is completely broken. Gold without order is Peace without them.
After becoming so traumatized by the deaths of her people, she sealed death away for good. Then, her own son is subjected to the worst death imaginable by anyone. If godhood couldn't prevent that, then what was the point of godhood?
In Marika's own words: Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices...
Here is my theory, we know that the hornsent worshipped the crucible and the jars are essentially just a religious practice. They stuffed things in jars and hoped to create living beings. The shamans were used as an alchemical potion to make that happen. I think Marika were one such being, a shaman who were stuffed into a jar with other flesh that melted together, she were revered by the hornsent because it created a saintly creature. There were all sorts of living things stuffed in there with the shaman who later became Marika after the Jar. Parts of a great snake, also a giant and maybe a man and some hornsent too, all of this is what Marika is created out of. Radagon is simply parts of the giant and of the man, thus the red hair. But her children were bestowed "gifts" from these other parts of her, messmer part of the snake and the giant, a fire giant. We can see she was worshipped, there are statues of Marika in the shadow of the erdtree, some of them probably built by the hornsent. But she had Messmer hunt them for their wrongs against her people, thus the betrayal. Its just a theory, take from it what you will if any.
I think you are onto something. I think whatever those psychopaths did to Marika and her people actually worked in her and she then went on to become a god and then later betrayed them and had them destroyed as revenge for her people
I’m glad you pointed this out! I have been thinking about this for a while, and to be honest, I just straight up think it is true. P.S. This is just speculation, but I think it’s possible Marika was truly aligned with the hornsent until she learned the truth of what happened? However this only works if you believe Marika was very young when she became the “Jar Saint”
Nice video. I have a different theory about her original sin though. In the base game.. the only reference we have to a sin is when we are discussing the burning of the erd tree. And if we look at the shadow tree.. does it not look burnt? It’s also leaking golden sap. I think at one point it was a golden tree of some kind that that she burned. And that was the original sin. She then hid that entire land because she didn’t want people to know that she committed the very sin that she prohibited in the lands between.
It’s crazy that Elden Ring turned out to be a story about trauma. Marika was clearly driven by rage and suffering. And the world she created reflects her broken soul
Trauma is often a major theme of FS works. Sekiro is a story about childhood trauma too, and Wolf's PTSD/overcoming it (or failing to)/and ending the cycle of trauma. I can't help but wonder if Miyazaki intentionally does that, or we simply see the parallels because we're so much more aware of psychology and trauma these days.
I wonder if the base game jars are what's left of the Shaman? We know Messmer was treating the jars under his castle. In Jarburg, theres all kinds of flowers blooming - something we really only see in one other place, Shaman Village. I wonder if Marika took them with her to the lands between, and repurposed them. They have a different seal in the base game.
Icarus. Every single time someone aspires to Divinity in this game, they get burned by it. It makes Miquellas part in this so much more necessary, to understand that Marika didn't really have a choice. Miquella does, which makes his reign potentially even more destructive.
@@livingjarcletus I mean it surely could be a mistake. There are a ton of item descriptions and we have no other evidence leading to pre-Erdtree cultures/orders having Empyreans. Empyreans, to our knowledge have been exclusively Numen/Shamans in origin.
What if Marika didn't actually tell mesmer to burn the hornsent but to keep them oppressed. With inir Elim sealed and mesmer being the key, who could rise against her. What if it were the abyssal serpent who had eaten enough of mesmers flame to wield it. What if that is the seduction and betrayal from which gold arose. Mesmer bore the vision of fire and he burned the great tree. The erdtree is birthed in it's scab. Creating the shadow land and hiding the cardinal sin. When Marika sealed the serpent she sealed him but mesmer doesn't know what happened. Some of his knights figured out he was being led by the snake and backed away from him.
Also, I will die on the hill that the Greater Will isn’t intelligent per se and has way more in common with Lovecraft’s blind idiot God. My take is the Greater Will just seeds the cosmos like spores. And where it takes root, it flourishes. Like any organism, the sole ambition of the Greater Will is simply to replicate and proliferate
Metyr hit Farum Azula and was injured. The base game explain it was destroyed years ago by a shooting star. What isn’t explained is that if the Fingers misguided Marika from the start then how was the Elden Beast (which came later and destroyed the third, unnamed Eternal City) sent as the vassal of the Greater Will.
Godfrey embodies aspects of the crucible and i think if you look at his movesets and the tower warriors movesets its clear he was one of these people and likely the king within the royal family. My theory is Marika Seduced, Godfrey to gain rank within the Hornsent Royal Family. Then She would steal away the Elden Ring from Metyrs eye and use it at the gate of divinity to become a God. Likely using its power to kill all the hornsent in the process hence the bloody scene we see. They thought she was simply ascending as the new god as an empyrean would but she then betrayed them. Stealing the Elden Ring from Metyrs eye was the original sin. Seduction of Godfrey and the Subsequent Betrayal of the Hornsent Family during her ascension along with Messmers crusade was the seduction and betrayal. 1.0 Nox descriptions say they are Marikas Family. Its likely she had them use the fingerslayer blade on Metyr when stealing away the Elden Ring. That was how they invoked the ire of the greater will by attacking its "daughter" Metyr was the golden star bearing the Elden Beast. The daughter of the greater will carrying the parasitic host that is a vassal of the greater will Godfrey shares movesets and crucible origins with tower warriors. His children are omen or Godwynn who wields Lightning. Concepts we see present within the divine dancer. Now Messmer, Eiglay, and Marika needs to be deeper examined because im starting to suspect Eiglay seduced Marika to steal the Elden Ring from Metyr and thats why Messmer is cursed with the serpent but its all loose threads however the abyssal serpent eventually fated to devour all in its flames and posing a threat so great even in god hood Marika feared him sort of ties into Eiglay seeking to devour the gods. Anyway im word walling hard and dont want to keep rambling but those are just some lore theories ive been dwelling on
I don't believe that that's a statue of marikas family but actually marikas family I think, from our knowledge on how "the flesh of shamans was said to meld harmoniously with others" I believe that is her true body, melded with the flesh of the tree, that being the core or the roots.
No, it's extremely more likely the land was veiled when Marika ascended and Erdtree was born. The "land of shadow" was a direct part of lands between before the shadow was born and connected to the rest, like limgrave. There was no scadutruee and erdtree existing side by side to each other in one land, scadutree is the shadow of the Erdtree, they are two halves of one whole, occupying the same space "across dimensions". The land of shadow was veiled exactly when the scadutree was born. We likewise know Enir-Ilim was veiled in shadow only during Messmer's crusade due to finding items belonging to his army there, like Messmerfire grease and so on. So placing the sealing tree was Messmer's doing, but veiling the land of shadow was Marika's at the very beginning. Also crucible knight devonia traveled there after the veiling. We know Godwyn knights likewise traveled there AFTER the veiling and the crusade, when Godwyn was already dead, so shortly before the shattering. We don't know how they got there but they did, just like us or Miquella. There would be no "land of the Erdtree" if the DLC locations wasn't veiled yet, since Erdtree would literally tower over the entire land, just like the scadutree. If there was no veil and shadow, the DLC location would be land of the Erdtree, even more so than limgrave, since it's much closer to it. So currently we can be 99% certain the land of shadow was veiled when Marika created the Erdtree, just like the trailer tells us, and there was literally no other way for shadow to be born. As to the suppressing pillar, lot of people misinterpret the lore a lot because of it, so this might help you to understand it better: We know the suppressing pillar was built by Uhl/Uld dynasty due to few identical engravings, which was an ancient society that predated both the hornsent and Marika, same as Nox, which are very likely their descendants. Before Marika came the location where the DLC takes place was not the "land of shadow" yet, and it was directly connected to the rest of lands between. It was just an another region on the map, like limgrave. That region was never some afterlife. Hornsent were likewise a prosperous society BEFORE Marika and before the land of shadow was veiled, and it's also them who built the stone graves around the grave site planes, those with the coffin and an arc above it and who are likewise connected to gravebirds. Which were built either by them, or more likely by a previous civilization before them. So all this stuff, pillar, "all manner of death", gravebirds and so on were built/written when the land of shadow was a direct part of lands between, looong before Marika came and the Erdtree and Scadutree were born. What does that mean? The most likely explanation currently is that the suppressing tower text refers to lands between and not just the land of shadow, which is also pretty obvious since it directly states it's the centre of lands between without acknowledging the land of shadow, since it wasn't veiled in shadow when it was built. How does it work currently? In the base game opening cinematic we see all our Tarnished literally die and through death return to lands between, just as Marika foretold when taking their grace away. Our own tarnished is in some dark nothingness before being "revived" at the precipice of anticipation (The lands between is also more directly translated from japanese just as a "gap"). So it seems that people from all over the world can end up in lands between after dying, but only few of them are revived, through grace as our own Tarnished, Godfrey and so on. The Pillar might "suppress" all others from being revived, people without grace or some ER-related duty. And what remains of those are just spirit graves in the vicinity of suppressing tower in a somewhat circular pattern, while not being present in the rest of the land of shadow. There are no spirits graves around Rauh ruins, shaman village or Jagged peak for example. This is currently the most likely scenario, far more probable than the others. But as to spirit graves themselves, we can be fairly certain they exist because someone had that artistic idea during DLC's development and it looked fucking cool, so they added the suppressing pillar to explain why they are not in the base game and why they're absent in some parts of the land of shadow that are far from the pillar.
In regards to the first half of your comment of which you are 99% sure of…”And so too shadow was born” shadow being born doesnt necessarily mean the lands of shadow were born at the moment of Marika’s ascension. There is considerable amounts of evidence implying that the lands of shadow was not hidden away until far later in Marika’s reign. As for the evidence that the land of shadow came to be at the moment of Marika’s ascension…very little. I wouldnt claim 99% sure. As for all lore in this game, the community is split. However, on this subject, if you watch other creators content which im sure you do, this subject not so much. The evidence supporting the lands of shadow being veiled far later into the timeline outweighs the evidence of the other. Now of this, id say im probably 80% sure. And i use item descriptions and dialogue to attempt and prove that. But i am certainly not 99% sure. As with many aspects of the lore of this game, much is uninterpretable. Unlike previous souls games where the community MOSTLY agrees on the lore, this is not the case for this game and you are free to believe what you wish. If you want more evidence on this which i didnt dive into on this video, check out smoughtowns latest video on Messmer the impaler
I always thought of "The seduction, the betrayal" as the message Marika received from the Greater Will, as she saw the golden order she built didn't workout the way it was promised as the betrayal. Or possibly her turning on her Hornsent after she found out what happened, and her betraying them by just 'taking' godhood.
One of the things i both love and hate about the lore in this game is the lack of consensus. This is a good theory, they all are honestly, so hard to say whats truth
Because the festive celebration is obviously the same one done in Windmill Village but those ppl (all women i believe as well) are not hornsent or omens.
It was an old tradition, older than the erdtree. “Old enough for the erdtree to tacitly tolerate its endurance.” This to me implies that the festival was a tradition older than the erdtree, and came to be during the age of the crucible, ie the age of the hornsent. This is why i think its a hornsent tradition that just endured through the years. I saw that in a vaati video, but…i dont think the “delightful festival” necessarily is the same festival taking place in windmill village. Not sure why this is assumed, but even if it is, its not of any consequence to what i think. Both can be true
I just did a video on this So great!!!! Yes, the hornsent created Marika and by extension radagon. The empyrean that Marika betrayed was the empyrean later known as the gloam eyed queen The gloam eyed queen was the snake divinity eiglay. The seduction is 2 events. The seduction of the gloam eyed queen through radagon. Radagon being an anagram of dragon , this is very similar to what the nox did with dragons - creating dragon kin and the dragon knight kin. A lot like the Targaryen's The Numen , was their success at creating a new lord So above , as below We can only exist in a land of opposites In a land between❤
Have you seen kitetales second to most recent video? Really cool stuff in there you would probably like. I think the betrayal was the betrayal of the Hornsent as they saw her as something they created, which, they did. Im also starting to think the seduction was of Godfrey. Ive already changed my mind on a lot of things ive said in the video. Elden lore is so hard to interpret
@@livingjarcletus oh yea you're right The hornsent are def betrayed as well Not sure, if it's the betrayal Miquella was referring to when gold and shadow were born
@@livingjarcletus wow good a lot of kite tales and my take over lap. Now I'm thinking, that it's the same betrayal The hornsent and this empyrean - grandmother who calls Marika a strumpet Dammit my theories are changing constantly Good show living jar Cletus
@@livingjarcletus so what exactly links it to hornsent? There’s no evidence they practiced it unlesss we want to assume all cultures practiced that particular festival.
Man….who knows. Could be anything, i am fairly certain Radagon was in the Jar with Marika before she came out an empyrean. Theres some archeological evidence in enir ilim that supports this. Aside from that….i know nothing
The nox took their own people and mixed people like the hornset that is why the greater will turned away from them all.As well as making a tower to heaven to be a god.
I watched a kitetails video about this and am really leaning toward that as well. That she was the result of what the jars were supposed to be. I love it
Divine beast warrior armor. Drops from the divine beasts in the last area of the dlc. Rare drop rate i think i got lucky and didnt even have to farm for it
Wait. So the original sin had something to do with the snake. The snake that is in messmer. Maybe Messmer is the son of Marika and a snake? What does the snake have to do with the fingers and the crucible? Someone mentioned how the white thing in the trailer where Marika got the threads from looks like a snake? Is there any mention of the hornsent and snakes?
Sorry, but I feel the Grandmother was the very tree you pick up the braid from. Makes 0 sense for the hornsent granny to walk all the way to the hidden village and then back to her town.
What if marika is the gloam eyed queen? Would fit with the betrayal if she killed the gods of the previous age and that's how she ascended to godhood. There's also a theory that mesmer is the son of the gloam eyed queen and was stolen by marika.
I saw this theory on a ratatoskr podcast w smoughtown and i like it. I basically think radagon and all of marikas children (except morgott and mogh) are just offshoots of marika. Parts of her she picked up when she was in the jar that she’s now splitting off from
Given that the story is told through environment, item descriptions, npc dialogue etc. We kind of have to take what we can get. The unreliable narrator is certainly used in other fromsoftware games (DS1 especially) so this is indeed a good point and should be considered when interpreting lore
@@ManEaterBrainBug Say what you will about her methods but she did ensure no child would ever watch her people get viciously tortured and killed for the delusional religious whims of the Hornsent anymore. Her error was simply being afraid to own it and publicly declare it wou!d happen to anyone else who threatened her family and people. I think there wouldn't be much political or personal will to oppose the Pax Marika from then on.
Actually, it is known that Marika is outsider and from an empire that she ruled that was very technologically advanced. Seems their technology died when her ship crashed however.
![Marika's Ascension was NOT legitimate; AND IT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING [Elden Ring Lore]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Uo7Froo5xS8/mqdefault.jpg)
Shaman village is probably my favourite area in a souls game ever, no joke. Before it would have been Leyndell or Anor Londo or Central Yharnam or something like that but.. just getting to see where the whole lore of where Elden Ring started? The beautiful yet eerie silence? The scenery that looks beautiful yet abandoned? The whole tragedy of the Shamans, subjected to the worst fate imaginable for no reason, and the Shaman who became a god to get her revenge, only to realise it was too late and that she gave her life away to a cosmic horror for nothing, and her dream of a deathless paradise free of her past became a nightmare of its own. It’s all conveyed so well. It doesn’t really redeem Marika but it does humanise her and adds so much to the base game also.
I agree completely. An area hasnt made me feel like that, thats for sure
Majula? not disagreeing at all, just saying :)
oc nowhere near as deep. but the music…
For no reason? They created a god, I wouldn't say that's no reason.
On my second play through, you are so right, top tier play in any game ever, the music, the slow down, the only unbroken place is completely broken.
Gold without order is Peace without them.
Hmm, good point but Blighttown is still better
After becoming so traumatized by the deaths of her people, she sealed death away for good. Then, her own son is subjected to the worst death imaginable by anyone. If godhood couldn't prevent that, then what was the point of godhood?
In Marika's own words: Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices...
Godhood is a prison
NoBK was inside job.
+][+
My husband said it was one genocide for another.
Here is my theory, we know that the hornsent worshipped the crucible and the jars are essentially just a religious practice. They stuffed things in jars and hoped to create living beings. The shamans were used as an alchemical potion to make that happen.
I think Marika were one such being, a shaman who were stuffed into a jar with other flesh that melted together, she were revered by the hornsent because it created a saintly creature. There were all sorts of living things stuffed in there with the shaman who later became Marika after the Jar. Parts of a great snake, also a giant and maybe a man and some hornsent too, all of this is what Marika is created out of. Radagon is simply parts of the giant and of the man, thus the red hair.
But her children were bestowed "gifts" from these other parts of her, messmer part of the snake and the giant, a fire giant.
We can see she was worshipped, there are statues of Marika in the shadow of the erdtree, some of them probably built by the hornsent. But she had Messmer hunt them for their wrongs against her people, thus the betrayal.
Its just a theory, take from it what you will if any.
I think you are onto something. I think whatever those psychopaths did to Marika and her people actually worked in her and she then went on to become a god and then later betrayed them and had them destroyed as revenge for her people
I’m glad you pointed this out! I have been thinking about this for a while, and to be honest, I just straight up think it is true.
P.S. This is just speculation, but I think it’s possible Marika was truly aligned with the hornsent until she learned the truth of what happened? However this only works if you believe Marika was very young when she became the “Jar Saint”
Good stuff! I like how you just tell the story, and make it very clear when you want to speculate, but also keep it to a minimum.
Thank you
'Radagon, I'm going to become a God' I believe is the confession.
No, it was «I want to go home…and then edge»
@@buffoonustroglodytus4688 Amazing Chest Ahead
Don't Give Up Skeleton
Secret Path Ahead
Nice video. I have a different theory about her original sin though. In the base game.. the only reference we have to a sin is when we are discussing the burning of the erd tree. And if we look at the shadow tree.. does it not look burnt? It’s also leaking golden sap. I think at one point it was a golden tree of some kind that that she burned. And that was the original sin. She then hid that entire land because she didn’t want people to know that she committed the very sin that she prohibited in the lands between.
It’s crazy that Elden Ring turned out to be a story about trauma. Marika was clearly driven by rage and suffering. And the world she created reflects her broken soul
Trauma is often a major theme of FS works. Sekiro is a story about childhood trauma too, and Wolf's PTSD/overcoming it (or failing to)/and ending the cycle of trauma.
I can't help but wonder if Miyazaki intentionally does that, or we simply see the parallels because we're so much more aware of psychology and trauma these days.
I wonder if the base game jars are what's left of the Shaman? We know Messmer was treating the jars under his castle. In Jarburg, theres all kinds of flowers blooming - something we really only see in one other place, Shaman Village.
I wonder if Marika took them with her to the lands between, and repurposed them. They have a different seal in the base game.
Icarus. Every single time someone aspires to Divinity in this game, they get burned by it. It makes Miquellas part in this so much more necessary, to understand that Marika didn't really have a choice. Miquella does, which makes his reign potentially even more destructive.
I looked on Reddit a few days ago and apparently the Japanese item description for that incantation changed "Empyrean" to "Hornsent" Grandam.
Huh, il have to check that. That would be a pretty major oversight on part of the developers so i doubt it was a mistake
@@livingjarcletus I mean it surely could be a mistake. There are a ton of item descriptions and we have no other evidence leading to pre-Erdtree cultures/orders having Empyreans. Empyreans, to our knowledge have been exclusively Numen/Shamans in origin.
IN THE TREEEE, PART OF THE TREEEE. IN THE TREEE, PART OF THE TREEEE.
What if Marika didn't actually tell mesmer to burn the hornsent but to keep them oppressed. With inir Elim sealed and mesmer being the key, who could rise against her. What if it were the abyssal serpent who had eaten enough of mesmers flame to wield it. What if that is the seduction and betrayal from which gold arose. Mesmer bore the vision of fire and he burned the great tree. The erdtree is birthed in it's scab. Creating the shadow land and hiding the cardinal sin. When Marika sealed the serpent she sealed him but mesmer doesn't know what happened. Some of his knights figured out he was being led by the snake and backed away from him.
Great video! Really engaging and good lore breakdown. Looking forward to more!
Also, I will die on the hill that the Greater Will isn’t intelligent per se and has way more in common with Lovecraft’s blind idiot God.
My take is the Greater Will just seeds the cosmos like spores. And where it takes root, it flourishes. Like any organism, the sole ambition of the Greater Will is simply to replicate and proliferate
I agree with this. Whole heartedly
@@livingjarcletus ayy!
Beautiful!!
Metyr hit Farum Azula and was injured. The base game explain it was destroyed years ago by a shooting star.
What isn’t explained is that if the Fingers misguided Marika from the start then how was the Elden Beast (which came later and destroyed the third, unnamed Eternal City) sent as the vassal of the Greater Will.
Godfrey embodies aspects of the crucible and i think if you look at his movesets and the tower warriors movesets its clear he was one of these people and likely the king within the royal family.
My theory is Marika Seduced, Godfrey to gain rank within the Hornsent Royal Family.
Then She would steal away the Elden Ring from Metyrs eye and use it at the gate of divinity to become a God. Likely using its power to kill all the hornsent in the process hence the bloody scene we see. They thought she was simply ascending as the new god as an empyrean would but she then betrayed them.
Stealing the Elden Ring from Metyrs eye was the original sin.
Seduction of Godfrey and the Subsequent Betrayal of the Hornsent Family during her ascension along with Messmers crusade was the seduction and betrayal.
1.0 Nox descriptions say they are Marikas Family. Its likely she had them use the fingerslayer blade on Metyr when stealing away the Elden Ring. That was how they invoked the ire of the greater will by attacking its "daughter"
Metyr was the golden star bearing the Elden Beast. The daughter of the greater will carrying the parasitic host that is a vassal of the greater will
Godfrey shares movesets and crucible origins with tower warriors. His children are omen or Godwynn who wields Lightning. Concepts we see present within the divine dancer.
Now Messmer, Eiglay, and Marika needs to be deeper examined because im starting to suspect Eiglay seduced Marika to steal the Elden Ring from Metyr and thats why Messmer is cursed with the serpent but its all loose threads however the abyssal serpent eventually fated to devour all in its flames and posing a threat so great even in god hood Marika feared him sort of ties into Eiglay seeking to devour the gods.
Anyway im word walling hard and dont want to keep rambling but those are just some lore theories ive been dwelling on
I don't believe that that's a statue of marikas family but actually marikas family I think, from our knowledge on how "the flesh of shamans was said to meld harmoniously with others" I believe that is her true body, melded with the flesh of the tree, that being the core or the roots.
No, it's extremely more likely the land was veiled when Marika ascended and Erdtree was born. The "land of shadow" was a direct part of lands between before the shadow was born and connected to the rest, like limgrave. There was no scadutruee and erdtree existing side by side to each other in one land, scadutree is the shadow of the Erdtree, they are two halves of one whole, occupying the same space "across dimensions". The land of shadow was veiled exactly when the scadutree was born. We likewise know Enir-Ilim was veiled in shadow only during Messmer's crusade due to finding items belonging to his army there, like Messmerfire grease and so on. So placing the sealing tree was Messmer's doing, but veiling the land of shadow was Marika's at the very beginning. Also crucible knight devonia traveled there after the veiling. We know Godwyn knights likewise traveled there AFTER the veiling and the crusade, when Godwyn was already dead, so shortly before the shattering. We don't know how they got there but they did, just like us or Miquella. There would be no "land of the Erdtree" if the DLC locations wasn't veiled yet, since Erdtree would literally tower over the entire land, just like the scadutree. If there was no veil and shadow, the DLC location would be land of the Erdtree, even more so than limgrave, since it's much closer to it. So currently we can be 99% certain the land of shadow was veiled when Marika created the Erdtree, just like the trailer tells us, and there was literally no other way for shadow to be born.
As to the suppressing pillar, lot of people misinterpret the lore a lot because of it, so this might help you to understand it better:
We know the suppressing pillar was built by Uhl/Uld dynasty due to few identical engravings, which was an ancient society that predated both the hornsent and Marika, same as Nox, which are very likely their descendants. Before Marika came the location where the DLC takes place was not the "land of shadow" yet, and it was directly connected to the rest of lands between. It was just an another region on the map, like limgrave. That region was never some afterlife. Hornsent were likewise a prosperous society BEFORE Marika and before the land of shadow was veiled, and it's also them who built the stone graves around the grave site planes, those with the coffin and an arc above it and who are likewise connected to gravebirds. Which were built either by them, or more likely by a previous civilization before them. So all this stuff, pillar, "all manner of death", gravebirds and so on were built/written when the land of shadow was a direct part of lands between, looong before Marika came and the Erdtree and Scadutree were born.
What does that mean? The most likely explanation currently is that the suppressing tower text refers to lands between and not just the land of shadow, which is also pretty obvious since it directly states it's the centre of lands between without acknowledging the land of shadow, since it wasn't veiled in shadow when it was built.
How does it work currently? In the base game opening cinematic we see all our Tarnished literally die and through death return to lands between, just as Marika foretold when taking their grace away. Our own tarnished is in some dark nothingness before being "revived" at the precipice of anticipation (The lands between is also more directly translated from japanese just as a "gap"). So it seems that people from all over the world can end up in lands between after dying, but only few of them are revived, through grace as our own Tarnished, Godfrey and so on. The Pillar might "suppress" all others from being revived, people without grace or some ER-related duty. And what remains of those are just spirit graves in the vicinity of suppressing tower in a somewhat circular pattern, while not being present in the rest of the land of shadow. There are no spirits graves around Rauh ruins, shaman village or Jagged peak for example.
This is currently the most likely scenario, far more probable than the others. But as to spirit graves themselves, we can be fairly certain they exist because someone had that artistic idea during DLC's development and it looked fucking cool, so they added the suppressing pillar to explain why they are not in the base game and why they're absent in some parts of the land of shadow that are far from the pillar.
In regards to the first half of your comment of which you are 99% sure of…”And so too shadow was born” shadow being born doesnt necessarily mean the lands of shadow were born at the moment of Marika’s ascension. There is considerable amounts of evidence implying that the lands of shadow was not hidden away until far later in Marika’s reign. As for the evidence that the land of shadow came to be at the moment of Marika’s ascension…very little. I wouldnt claim 99% sure. As for all lore in this game, the community is split. However, on this subject, if you watch other creators content which im sure you do, this subject not so much. The evidence supporting the lands of shadow being veiled far later into the timeline outweighs the evidence of the other.
Now of this, id say im probably 80% sure. And i use item descriptions and dialogue to attempt and prove that. But i am certainly not 99% sure. As with many aspects of the lore of this game, much is uninterpretable. Unlike previous souls games where the community MOSTLY agrees on the lore, this is not the case for this game and you are free to believe what you wish.
If you want more evidence on this which i didnt dive into on this video, check out smoughtowns latest video on Messmer the impaler
And as to the second part of the comment, it doesnt really have anything to do with the video but sure i guess, good speculation id say i agree
"Lord forgive me for I have sinned"
I always thought of "The seduction, the betrayal" as the message Marika received from the Greater Will, as she saw the golden order she built didn't workout the way it was promised as the betrayal. Or possibly her turning on her Hornsent after she found out what happened, and her betraying them by just 'taking' godhood.
One of the things i both love and hate about the lore in this game is the lack of consensus. This is a good theory, they all are honestly, so hard to say whats truth
The Ringed City was probably a precursor to Londor. There is a lot of evidence that the Sable Church was also an off-shoot of the Church of Filianore.
Love the lore video. Confused about the connection bw the festive grease and hornsent culture though? Could you elaborate?
Because the festive celebration is obviously the same one done in Windmill Village but those ppl (all women i believe as well) are not hornsent or omens.
It was an old tradition, older than the erdtree. “Old enough for the erdtree to tacitly tolerate its endurance.” This to me implies that the festival was a tradition older than the erdtree, and came to be during the age of the crucible, ie the age of the hornsent. This is why i think its a hornsent tradition that just endured through the years.
I saw that in a vaati video, but…i dont think the “delightful festival” necessarily is the same festival taking place in windmill village. Not sure why this is assumed, but even if it is, its not of any consequence to what i think. Both can be true
I just did a video on this
So great!!!!
Yes, the hornsent created Marika and by extension radagon.
The empyrean that Marika betrayed was the empyrean later known as the gloam eyed queen
The gloam eyed queen was the snake divinity eiglay.
The seduction is 2 events.
The seduction of the gloam eyed queen through radagon.
Radagon being an anagram of dragon , this is very similar to what the nox did with dragons - creating dragon kin and the dragon knight kin.
A lot like the Targaryen's
The Numen , was their success at creating a new lord
So above , as below
We can only exist in a land of opposites
In a land between❤
Have you seen kitetales second to most recent video? Really cool stuff in there you would probably like. I think the betrayal was the betrayal of the Hornsent as they saw her as something they created, which, they did. Im also starting to think the seduction was of Godfrey. Ive already changed my mind on a lot of things ive said in the video. Elden lore is so hard to interpret
@@livingjarcletus oh yea you're right
The hornsent are def betrayed as well
Not sure, if it's the betrayal Miquella was referring to when gold and shadow were born
@@livingjarcletus oh sorry no I'll go check out kite takes rn
@@livingjarcletus wow good a lot of kite tales and my take over lap.
Now I'm thinking, that it's the same betrayal
The hornsent and this empyrean - grandmother who calls Marika a strumpet
Dammit my theories are changing constantly
Good show living jar Cletus
Pretty sure the festive grease is referring to the Dominulans
Why are they mutually exclusive? The festival was a thing before the erdtree so likely wouldnt be exclusive to the windmill village
@@livingjarcletus so what exactly links it to hornsent? There’s no evidence they practiced it unlesss we want to assume all cultures practiced that particular festival.
Assuming hornsent society was the dominant society pre erdtree. And the erdtree allowed it to continue, a tradition of the society pre erdtree
Couldn't Radagon originally be a vessel for the Fell God? 🤔
Man….who knows. Could be anything, i am fairly certain Radagon was in the Jar with Marika before she came out an empyrean. Theres some archeological evidence in enir ilim that supports this. Aside from that….i know nothing
Off topic: What Armor do you have equiped in this vid?
In which chapter? Im wearing a few different sets throughout
@@livingjarcletus when you are in the Shaman Village
Divine beast warrior. Can only get in enir ilim
The nox took their own people and mixed people like the hornset that is why the greater will turned away from them all.As well as making a tower to heaven to be a god.
Merika is the only saint that came out the jar
I watched a kitetails video about this and am really leaning toward that as well. That she was the result of what the jars were supposed to be. I love it
Yo ,whats the chest piece on your armour? It looks sick
Which one? Im wearing 5 different sets throughout the video
The 1st one i believe at 1:43
Divine beast warrior armor. Drops from the divine beasts in the last area of the dlc. Rare drop rate i think i got lucky and didnt even have to farm for it
Wait. So the original sin had something to do with the snake. The snake that is in messmer. Maybe Messmer is the son of Marika and a snake? What does the snake have to do with the fingers and the crucible? Someone mentioned how the white thing in the trailer where Marika got the threads from looks like a snake? Is there any mention of the hornsent and snakes?
Watch @kitetales video about the timeline from 12 days ago.
Sorry, but I feel the Grandmother was the very tree you pick up the braid from.
Makes 0 sense for the hornsent granny to walk all the way to the hidden village and then back to her town.
Fair, but very unlikely it was hidden then
What if marika is the gloam eyed queen?
Would fit with the betrayal if she killed the gods of the previous age and that's how she ascended to godhood.
There's also a theory that mesmer is the son of the gloam eyed queen and was stolen by marika.
I saw this theory on a ratatoskr podcast w smoughtown and i like it. I basically think radagon and all of marikas children (except morgott and mogh) are just offshoots of marika. Parts of her she picked up when she was in the jar that she’s now splitting off from
Ymir is just some guy really, there is no real reason to think he knows what he's talking about
Assuming that Ymir tells no lies is a really weak position. He's no god and delusional.
Given that the story is told through environment, item descriptions, npc dialogue etc. We kind of have to take what we can get. The unreliable narrator is certainly used in other fromsoftware games (DS1 especially) so this is indeed a good point and should be considered when interpreting lore
Pre DLC: Marika went too far.
Post DLC: Marika didn't go far enough.
@@ManEaterBrainBug Say what you will about her methods but she did ensure no child would ever watch her people get viciously tortured and killed for the delusional religious whims of the Hornsent anymore. Her error was simply being afraid to own it and publicly declare it wou!d happen to anyone else who threatened her family and people. I think there wouldn't be much political or personal will to oppose the Pax Marika from then on.
Actually, it is known that Marika is outsider and from an empire that she ruled that was very technologically advanced. Seems their technology died when her ship crashed however.
😭😭 shadow of the erdtree lore so trash, everyone only can make headcanon theories
they dropped the bag