3 Sample Libraries I REGRET BUYING...and 2 I Don't
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 พ.ค. 2024
- #SampleLibrary #VST #Orchestration
Sample Libraries are EXPENSIVE! And they don't have free trials, so each purchase is a real gamble. In this video, I talk about what libraries I regret buying and about how to go about buying sample libraries.
00:00 Intro
00:44 Preface
02:50 Library #1
04:33 What I Wish I Got Instead
07:54 Library #2
10:50 Library #3
12:40 My FAVOURITE Libraries
13:30 Honourable Mentions
16:06 Things to think about when getting a library
16:23 Make Use of Your Failures
18:07 Conclusion
18:32 UBC Bells, note on sampling
Music in this video:
D.I.D. CHOI - Tour of Italy: • D.I.D. CHOI - "A Tour ...
D.I.D. CHOI - Polar Express Rescore (SSS feature): • D.I.D. CHOI - Polar Ex...
Copland - Fanfare for the Common Man (SM Mockup) • Fanfare for the Common...
Stravinsky - Rite of Spring (Berlin WW feature): COMING SOON
Dvorak - From the New World II (Berlin WW feature): COMING SOON
D.I.D. CHOI - Over the Plains (Tina Guo Feature): • D.I.D. CHOI - Over the...
D.I.D. CHOI - Caminandes Rescore: • D.I.D. CHOI - Caminand...
Filmed between my house and UBC (School of Music, Rose Garden, Frederic Lasserre Building)
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www.didchoi.com
DIDCHOI
/ didchoi - เพลง
Omg yahooooooo haha 😂 thank you so much! 🎵🙏🏼🎵🙏🏼
Tina Guo herself everybody! Thanks for watching!
@@DIDCHOI This was so random but cool😅😅😅 and yes I agree I have different orchestras and they offer you different colors and that's something to always look out for also the brushes of variety. Although the idea of having an orchestra during a live performance is actually better because you can't cheat a real legato line with a real orchestra and all the interweaving lines of a string ensemble especially the endless amount of round robins involved in during live sessions. I think on both ends it's a great option to have both (if possible) but yes as stated in the video buying the entire orchestra is better because everyone is in the same room. Kontakt for me is very laggy and has dropouts at times. The OT gui is much better and as far as Spitfire libraries, always go for the Pro versions because the mics do make a HUGE difference. Thanks for sharing and also hi to Tina!! love your library btw especially the update ;)
Thank YOU for sharing your great talent with us all!
8Dio's Majestica was my eye opener after which I have never blindly bought a library before trying it at somebody else's studio. I spent 6 weeks doing part-time jobs in my country in order to afford the library. I was so excited when I finally had the money ready at the end of the summer. I bought it immediately. The download finished at 2AM which I patiently waited for. Full of excitement I loaded the library into Kontakt, played the first long strings note and was hit by utter disappointment.
The sample library development industry desperately needs something like a "try before buy" model or a "14-days money back guarantee if you don't like our product".
Yup, I've been there. But with that money back guarantee, lots of companies will be going under! hahahahaha
But yeah, really wish there were trials. Even if it was all on the cloud or something where you can import your own MIDI
@@DIDCHOI My hopes are that since many developers are moving towards their own engines they will eventually consider such option. I am pretty sure many people would welcome this with open arms and soon after that it would become an industry standard :)
Thanks for the heads up. I almost bought that library recently, but didn't make it before the sale end. I've felt that way about many 8dio libs, and have a lot of their strings, which I never like once they're in a song. The problem is that everything sounds great in demos and youtube reviews, then you get it and wonder if something happened during download.
I was so impressed with cinematic stings demos, then when I tried it on my computer I couldn't believe the difference in sound.
You only mentioned the strings in Majestica, but did you find all the other patches just as disappointing? And did it sound much better in the demos you heard on their site?
Honestly...majestica is so limited in uses but if I need something big and aggressive, it really gets the job done. Unfortunately it can't do much else better than that. It can give you some umph though if you combine. I'm not a pro though, just someone who has a passion. However though...insolidus? Instant regret. I want to use it often but then I remember it just never works as well as they made it seem in the video. Insolidus makes me pause about getting hype and snap buying anymore.
I absolutely canNOT trust reviews of any kind anymore. Can't believe how much CRAP I've bought, all based on rave reviews by Professionals. It seems like every library I have that was promoted by a pro is among the worst, most disappointing ones I have.
Berlin woodwinds has constant problems with hanging notes and inconsistent sounding articulations, and for the hefty price, barely covers half the WW section. Cinematic Strings are the very WORST sounding strings I have, and many of my 8dio libs are unusable for various reasons. D'Oboe is joke, and others of 8dios have strange or out of tune notes, that just sound awful when played together.
Unfortunately there is only 1 way to find out if a library will work for you, and that is to buy it. I'm more than happy to pay for what I use, but it's such a dirty deal when you get garbage you can't use and are out a good 3 months paycheck, unable to do anything about it.
If I had half of what I've spent on software I'll never use, I could retire on the interest.
I made a list of all my obsolete sample libraries the other day, and it sent me into depression. Some of them were not bad, just outdated by better stuff, or no longer supported, and some I never even got a chance to use, since I have limited time for music.
Professional quality! Loved your takes as well. Nice to see someone be honest but still not treating this as “one-size-fits-all”
Like I say in the video, MY regrets might be YOUR favourites since everyone's mixing style and templates are different. If you disagree or have different libraries you regret, let me know in the comments!
That's around 80% of my libraries - garbage. Often you don't find the flaws until you've used them awhile, and realize there's 1 or 2 notes that just don't work with the others....as if those notes were recorded in another room with different mics.
@@jameseverett4976 So true. It's often subtle things that aren't audible in their demos that make things unpleasant
It kind of sounds like poor research before buying, and also not a lot of effort to solve the issues. SSS is definitely a tool for some circumstances, due to the massive room sounds. Yet sometimes that's what you might need. And as for SampleModelling I think there's plenty of ways to position them as you wish and create the room tone for them, or even layer room mics from other libraries work fine. But being dry I think makes them more versatile than any other, and also they have great playability compares to pretty much any great sounding competitor as CSB or CIneBrass. idk... just my 2 cents
@@zoundbiestudio4021 sure in a way, it’s that when you’re new to libraries you don’t know what to expect or what certain explanations mean if you don’t have a chance to play them.
But also SSS has very inconsistent timing which you wouldn’t necessarily get from research.
SM doesn’t sound quite natural with any convolution or tricks for me now. I still like using it Berlin Studio nowadays, but exposed, it just sounds like a close mic with reverb rather than a trumpet in a room if you know what I mean
Yeah totally, that's a really good point. I've come to the conclusion (and this is my workflow now) that no library on its own stands the test for realisticness, if that word exists. So what I do is layering at least a couple of them and creating Track presets for combinations I find working good. (I work on Studio One 6 now) ie, SM brass, positioned with Eareverb 2, sent to a Seventh Heaven Room, and layered with CSB Room mics, or any room with character.@@DIDCHOI
I use samplemodeling brass almost every day and they never stop to amaze me. The only thing you need is the modwheel acting as expression controller. And that's it. Part recorded in one go, live, done. And it sounds totally real. One of my colleagues didn't even believe it was artificial, he thought it was real instrument, being in the business for more than 30 years it's really a success to fool him :)
That's good~ I've had successful uses too. I've used mod wheel for expression, breath controller, expression pedal, but while I get awesome solo passages (and jazz/pop stuff), I find it difficult to get good orchestral parts. Especially difficult to program medium length notes like portato, marcato, detaché, etc. Personally, having the right articulation in keyswtiches saves me time on those types of things
@@DIDCHOI I agree with your take. The orchestral parts require a different approach unless you have impressive keyboard skills and practice specifically to be able to live-record that stuff. Otherwise its like a MIDI editing nightmare.
Thanks for uploding! :-)
15:00 right! nice that you share my thoughts
I've replaced the Berlin instruments with the Infinite series. I LOVE Berlin winds and brass (and there ARE things I'm not super happy about with infinite's winds) but I found myself having to write around the samples. In that respect, Infinite winds and brass have been a godsend for me, if I can think it (and it's something I know a player can do in REAL life) I can write it 90% of the time. Speedier lines or rapid staccato, specifically in Berlin Brass, were incredibly difficult or impossible to write. I will say for anyone considering these libraries that the Berlin series is GREAT and sounds amazing, if you get Infinite Brass or Woodwinds you have to do A LOT of work behind the scenes before you really get your libraries feeling and sounding like they're in the scoring stage/hall with everyone else. Furthermore, you have to make sure you know enough about the instruments to make sure your writing is possible (if that's what you're going for)
Yeah this. Playable instruments are a must, and I would much rather see sophisticated algorithms and AI going into playable sample libraries than any of these silly auto-write tools. Sample libraries will never replace real musicians, but there's nothing like a mockup that's uninspiring and synthy.
Definitely more flexible, but from all the demo's I hear, I can't appreciate the tone. Always felt fake to me, (maybe cause I'm a clarinet player).
For complex stuff (that would be intended to be performed), I write with score first anyways, so the libraries limitations don't affect my writing. For stuff that I'm just creating with the demo being the final product, yeah I'll consider the libraries strengths for sure, but staying in those bounds still sounds more realistic to my ear.
Very good video, I had kind of the same thoughts in recent times.
I used to be a purist of modelisation approach with Sample Modeling SWAM and/or Aaron Venture stuff with a "1 track = 1 instrument = 1 staff" mindset. I thought I will finally recreate a pure orchestral performance and a coherent room sound.... WEEEEELLL
I think I was too much optimistic and it was just to much of a work to make it sound right even if it can get very uncanny if you put time and effort into programmation. Mixing was a nightmare too.
Today I go for a much more diverse approach, mixing and matchin "modelisation" librairies with pure sample / key switches and use them where they really shine. If I have a staccato passage, I go for samples, no brainer, if I write a solo, expressive line, a repetitive legato, a run etc... I go for modelisation.
I also allow myself to use ensemble patches (good old symphobia stuff) for a pad string part for example, instead of programming each track separatly, which was completely taboo for me at some point. Doing so, it may sound a bit less realistic because of the voicings between staves, but actually, it sound more coherent, more like an ensemble, more... realistic in a way (it's cheating I know)
Yeah, I think that's the best way to go about it. Though I still like to keep my strings separated for the most part hahaha. But for quick work, for sure, ensemble patches and such are easy and let you save on RAM and CPU
I use a combination of a lot of different things. I don't need to necessarily scrimp so I use everything I own to make the best sounding models I can for conductors of my works which are largely symphonic and chamber oriented. I use EW library Opus for a ton of things, lots of great articulations and the brass sounds are good. I use Spitfire Chamber Strings and I love them as the main portion of my string sounds along with adding in EW strings behind it to fill it up. (75% SF and 25% EW). I use Opus solo strings along with SF Solo Strings and it works nicely. The SF woodwinds Symphonic and Studio brass are good, but eventually I will get another brass library to go along with it. I also have some of SF's boutique libraries like British Drama and some others. Appassionata is always nice for adagio works and even like the staccato elements and pizz. Love the sound and the legatos work fine if you just work with them and tweek it.
Great video lad.
At first I almost regretted going for Sample Modeling Trumpets, but then I got Infinite Brass and they work so well together when layered. There's a really sharp/crispness to them that I just can't hear or create in most other libraries. I made a little video showing a layer structure I found worked nicely with Sample Modeling, Infinite Brass and Caspian. Not sure what the rest of Sample modeling is like, but on their own, the tone can be very nasal which is why I'm using it more as a layering tool because that nasal sound sorta gets buried among the other instruments.
Yeah, takes a lot of EQing. When you compare any other solo'd trumpet library's spectrum with SM trumpets, you can see that SM has a LOT more high mids and highs
Thanks for this, and all your great reviews and tips on your videos. I just got the Sample Modeling trombones, and am beginning to figure it out. I also have (and love) the CS Brass, but for jazz and pop the hall reverb (which sounds great, admittedly!) is really hard to fit into the overall sound. Additionally, as I think you've mentioned in another video, the CSB is a bit *too* "brassy" somewhere around the 2k-4k dB range; can't remember exactly. To me, this makes it a bit difficult to use together with e.g. Spitfire libraries whose emphasized frequencies are quite different. Has anybody else had this experience.
In addition to the other strong points of Sample Modeling, like intuitive playability, the bone-dryness (to which EFX can be added) is a plus. Different strokes for different folks, and different musical genres, I guess. Keep up the great work!
I don’t have any brass from spitfire so hard to say. It works well with Symphonic strings and studio woodwinds which I have. But I think CSB is maybe too brassy in the soft layers (as there is no soft layer) but I like the super brassy fff of the loud dynamics.
But yeah genre and style definitely plays a huge part to what fits you!
Thank you for all the tips! :)
Appreciate it!
There was a period of a few weeks just after I'd upgraded to Infinite Brass 1.6 from 1.5, where I suddenly felt like the horns and trumpet really sounded awful. I was about to look for a new library, when I realized I had all my I.B. patches set to the 'Close' mics - seriously, try this out, I.B sounds absolutely terrible on the close mics alone, but sounds way better when you include all the mic positions, or use one of the premixes. So yes, I can totally understand if you have I.B and set it to close mics only, so you can have a dry library, the sound is horrible. Use the pre-mixes, it helps.
Yeah the mixes will sound MUCH better than any close mic, since it’s so dry. But even then, because it’s IR based I find the tone is not convincing
All my 8dio libraries.... I give them too many chances
Hahahahaha that's a bummer
I'm quite fond of SampleModeling's stuff for chamber or non-orchestral works. If I just need a single trumpet that's supposed to be in a regular room, I'd go for that. However, I agree with you that it's not great for orchestra. Also I agree on the whole "key switches aren't that bad" point. For the small pieces I've been working on, I don't really want to take the time to play the parts in instead of exporting the MIDI from MuseScore, so that's where both Infinite Brass + SampleModeling can become a nuisance so far. Nyeh!
Also everything non-percussion by Spitfire seems to be solidly mediocre X_X
Definitely interesting to hear that your take on keyswitches is quite different from mine. I spent so much time in Nuendo and Dorico making expression maps and TouchOSC controllers for keyswitch heavy libraries like the Spitfire Symphonic series and I really loathe to use those libraries as it takes (me) too much time to shape the output compared to playing things in with Sample Modeling and a breath controller.
Yeah. The modelled libraries are great for playing in. But that also mean you gotta play it in with virtuosic control of each instrument, which I often don't have the time or patience to do. I like to reserve that for solos or sparse stuff. The keyswitches allow me to copy and paste MIDI between instruments, slightly tweak, and move on.
You mention Altiverb. I use 2C Audio Breeze 2 and Precedence (these 2 are linked and there are like 500 reverb algorithm presets in Breeze & expansions that all will adjust according to the precise soundstage placement you choose in Precedence (I haven't learned to tweak the presets or understand everything) and I really haven't had that much worry (not being super-focused on traditional symphonic or trailer scoring either) about getting something from Air Studios mixed with something bone dry. (Albion One is the only Air Studios thing I have BTW, but I do own the BBCSO Pro, along with Jaeger and Aaron Venture's Infinite Brass & Woodwinds). What bothers me about the Audio Modeling vs. Sample Modeling question is that I have the V.1. Audio Modeling Cello and even if I had a breath controller I would anticipate quite a learning curve. As a sound design-minded composer I am wanting to pick up the SWAM bundle just to be able to use the modeling creatively, less for realism and more for possibilities. But I find that SWAM has a certain lack of realism in its legato behavior, and both Audio Modeling and Sample Modeling instruments have unique strengths. But I can't afford to buy both.
I did a test with Aaron Venture's Infinite Brass and when using Precedence & Breeze 2 it sounds like the more expensive libraries. I will say that, much like Albion One is an ensemble recording, capturing the satisfying beauty of the reflections of the room and the other instruments, there may be some advantage in brass recorded in certain places and along with other sounding mechanisms (the wood or baffles of a hall for instance). Junkie XL (Tom Holkenborg) Brass sounds pretty amazing, one of the best brass libraries I've heard. Its I think $800 though and I don't know how much space it will take up on my hard drives. But I'm thoroughly satisfied with Aaron Ventures product for its ease of use and flexibility. No regrets. (I've avoided paying big money for the Sample Modeling & Audio Modeling products for now. My Audio Modeling Cello v.1. has some uses but it could be very hard to write trailer music with.
Your honesty is refreshing, and I can totally relate to the disappointment of making regrettable purchases! Interestingly, Samplemodelling brass (I have the complete collection) is one that I consider to be an absolute triumph. For me, it's the very dryness that makes it so versatile. I have no problem with using artificial reverbs and ambiences to put it in the desired space, and often use the SM instruments' Distance and Early Reflection parameters to help push things further back in the space. In terms of performance realism, the sheer multitude of note transitions and other performance artifacts is unmatched by any purely sampled library. The French Horns in particular are incredibly expressive - and the dynamic range is enormous. But there you go - everyone has different needs and expectations. BTW I also use CSB and love it - I just wish the Bass Trombone went down to the low C, and the Trumpets had their full range down to F#...!
Yeah, that is a gripe of mine with CSB, don't know why they didn't do the whole range!
I'm trying out SM Strings these days and it seems quite good, especially the solo instruments. Still can't get my brass to match the "room energy" of traditional libraries, so it's hard for me to use them despite their expressiveness. Like them for solo lines, big band, or other brass feature stuff though!
Glad you enjoyed!
@@DIDCHOI Yes, the SM brass is especially good for big band and trad jazz.
Did you see that SM Strings have a free update that adds new Chamber Ensemble instruments? I've been playing around with those and they're quite interesting. Not sure if they use the same core sample material (it's a whole new download and installs in parallel to the old version) but they do have a different character from the normal Ensembles set to 'small'.
@@Nick.Magnus I just recently got it, so I’m not too familiar with it yet. Trying to include at least some in every project so I can get the hang of it
My biggest regret EVER is Spitfire’s Hans Zimmer Strings. And I tend to shy away from Spitfire’s Symphonic Strings for the SAME reasons you said. BUT SampleModeling is my favorite brass because of the playability and the ability to blend with anything BECAUSE they are bone dry. I wish all libraries were as dry as possible so I can design the space and place my instruments. I also have Aaron Venture brass, but I’m less fond of it because it forces me to use its IR. I want to turn all that off and place it in my designed room but it won’t let you.
You can turn off the IRs according to this thread vi-control.net/community/threads/infinite-series-aaron-venture-thread.86499/post-4742125
1. Enable Mixed Mic (this disables the triple convolution system)
2. Click the wrench icon.
3. Bypass the convolution unit on the Insert Effects tab.
The Aaron Venture libraries were actually two of my favorite purchases. In fact I "retired" my Berlin Woodwinds because I loved the workflow, tone and variety of Infinite Woodwinds so much. Also, I never play in my notes in live. Programming them in is very doable. My only complaint is lack of mono compatibility, which very few orchestral libraries get right. That has something to do with the IR as it's recorded with phase coherent XY miking. Putting the bone dry samples through Altiverb though was a failed experiment.
Wow! As a clarinet player, I personally cannot stand the AV Winds, but if you are successfully getting them to work, that's awesome!
Really interesting insights
Thanks!
Nice insights. Possibly you can explore different reverbs to unify your different sample libraries to make them sound like they're in the same space. I'm sure you have to a large extent. But there are a lot of reverbs out there :)
Yup, always looking at different reverbs. I use a convolution of Todd AO and Valhalla Room currently. Don’t want to invest in something expensive like altiverb to get results from a library cheaper than altiverb itself though for example hahaha
Most of my regrets are from Spitfire. Lots of inconsistencies as mentioned here. Additionally, they have yet to improve older libraries as some competitors have. However... they do have great Ads.
My thoughts exactly. Their stuff sounds really good. Just please rehaul and make the programming better and more consistent!
Stop with the amazing marketing and 52nd string library
Very helpful indeed
Thanks! Glad it helped!
Enjoyed, thanks
Glad to hear it!
Agree on Chamber Strings!
Thanks so much. Found this video very useful.
Great to hear!
@@DIDCHOI I have one question. I'm moving past all the Spitfire Originals sounds and looking to purchase my first professional string vst for Cinematic/Film Score. Which is your favorite go-to VSt...Im thinking Albion I or another company?
@@farnellnewton I think the general community and I love Cinematic Studio Strings. From spitfire, I think the only real string library that’s worth it is Chamber strings
Thank you for these kind of videos, I only am using smaller libraries to start out learning, I have already picked up Spitfire Studio Woodwinds. Here in Canada my tax return comes in soon and is enough to get a few things this year. Tina Guo and Josh Bell are both in the list and CSS now too.
Just make the conscious choice of future proofing and making sure ones you might be interested into the future will complement the "smaller" ones you are getting now
@@DIDCHOI Josh Bell Violin is worth getting. I had to set it to pro control setting and draw piano keys onto a piece of paper and make notes on how it all works. There are a lot of overlayed switches you can do and some of the keyswitches have 3 settings based on velocity. It sounds really really nice
@@maplefoxx6285 with articulation switches I’m sure it’d be really fun to play with. Haven’t gotten around to getting it yet though
I understand your opinion on SM being bone dry and that applying IR's to the signal is not the same thing as a real instrument recorded in a real room. You are totally correct. But I would think dry brass instruments with IR's would get you much closer to the real thing than it would with woodwinds and strings. I say this because brass instruments behave more like speakers(the impulse response source) than the other instruments.
Hello. Thanks for the useful feedback. I didn't quite get your workflow. You were talking about the sample playability, quality, etc. but you said for composing in the notation software, you prefer just Note Performer. So when do you use notation software and when do you use a DAW (I suspect that's where you use the high quality samples). Also if the computer needs to load 30+ gigs of samples for your DAW, having the same sort of resources loaded for Sibelius probably shouldn't make that much difference in overall resource use, and if your computer handles DAW and massive sample load, it will probably handle Sibelius or Dorico and the same massive sample load. You can tweak switching articulations, expression, etc. within Dorico by changing cc in the playing techniques track as well as being picked up by the articulation symbols added and the way the expression map is populated with all the possible articulations and their corresponding key switches and cc values (I imagine it is the same in Sibelius) so in reality, I don't think it is that much different composing in tracks and piano roll in DAW or building your instruments and players and entering notes, etc. in the score in notation software. Of course for mixing, DAW has much more things to offer so I imagine ideally you start from notation and once the info for the scores and playing techniques addressed, you import it to the DAW for further mix, right? If that's not your workflow, please explain.
Thanks.
Hi, great question. If I'm writing complex orchestral stuff, I much prefer organizing things with notation. But the most important part of determining my workflow is the end result. If I'm looking to record or perform my music, I write in score, and if I need a mockup, generally NotePerformer is fine.
If I work in the DAW, that's because the mockup might be the end result, I'm writing with more synths, effects, audio files, or some similar situation. Sure Dorico or Sibelius can handle samples, but what if I want to record myself playing Acoustic Guitar? It's just a different space and mindset.
I don't use samples in my Notation programs cause it'll bog down the computer, while something like NotePerformer allows me to have all 50+ tabs or whatever open on my browser, Netflix playing on the side, blah blah blah, and no hot computer haha.
Nothing wrong with using samples with notation, but that's just not something that is necessary for me as it walks the line between notation and realistic mockups.
Interesting and well made video!
Thanks!
Apart from Spitfire Chamber Strings, and all of the Original series, Tundra and neo are my favourite, along with Ólafur Arnalds releases.
Their regular string libraries, including The BBC Symphony Orchestra, all have issues and there are far better options out there.
Berlin Woodwinds are IMHO the best. Also, Cinematic Studio Series are superb. VSL are excellent too.
I think you recorded this prior to getting CSW - if you were choosing whether to save $100 on the CSW Black Friday Deal (coming up) or go for Berlin Woodwinds? I need to do agile exposed stuff, and I already have Infinite Woodwinds, but I like hall sounds and would see myself being happy with CSW and Berlin Woodwinds both.
Hey, sorry for the late response. Hope you had a good BF. As a matter of fact, I STILL don't have CSW because Berlin is quite good and I haven't found the justification to get another library. But I would love to get CSW sometime because of the consistency with CSS and CSB. Ideally both would be amazing!
Sample modeling is used at bleeding fingers as a layer, they mix it with Cinematic studio brass. And yes indeed, You have to use altiverb and also valhalla room to achive the blending between the two libraries.
Good to know. I do still use it for certain bits. I could definitely see it being useful in a large orchestra layering situation where you get the expression from SM and the sound/tone from CSB
Cool video! I agree heartfully using Noteperformer with notation programs! I'm so much looking forward for the 4th version, coming this year.
Yeah, NP4 is quite exciting!
Honesty! It's very refreshing. I have both the Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra Pro and Spitfire Chamber Strings Pro, which I bought separately. Although SA gives the option to get SSO w/ Chamber Strings, I chose the SSO w/ Symphonic Strings to get Masse free (which I use a lot), then bought Chamber separately. I agree with EVERYTHING you said about those libraries. SSO is a purchase I regret. Should've just bought SSO w/Chamber Strings instead.
I also agree with you about Sample Modeling brass. Like you, I bought all three libraries. I never use them. That's a purchase I also regret.
I don't have Infinite Brass but was considering it. After hearing your honesty regarding the libraries I do own, I trust your opinion on Infinite Brass as well and will likely avoid that purchase. Maybe I'll use that money to get Tina Guo Cellos 1 & 2 instead.
Subscribed!!
Thanks haha, it's unfortunate how poor Spitfire's programming is (at least by today's standards). I was recently playing a percussion patch, and was thinking "dang I can't play in time, I've lost it." Then I hard quantized the pattern and realized, nope Spitfire just can't program attack offsets consistently.
Tina Guo is awesome!
I enjoyed watching this. Well done. It triggers overall thoughts. And indeed, I share your opinion about SA tending to hype things too much, although I mainly use their stuff ;-) Be well, Jeff Hijlkema
Thanks Jeff!
I agree with you about Infinite Brass. One of the problems I encountered with it was playing in a brass part in Berlin Brass and then trying to use the midi on it...it just didn't work. If I play a part in all my other brass libraries from Spitfire to Orchestral Tools to 8DIo to Cinematic Studios...even to Nucleus...they all can play back the same recorded performance.
Yeah, it's gotta use a completely different mindset
Well that's because Infinite Brass uses 0 keyswitching. Those other libs do. You have to control it similarly to a modeled lib. Lots of Velocity + CC control
Watch the walkthroughs to learn how to control it
You bring it on the point and i think all the same. Spitfire needs a big updates. They do it in the Symphonic range. Performance legato on every instrument.
But they need a nes Gui and maybe to work on the samples
Totally agree!
I don't really understand the problem people have mixing libraries. It may take some effort to learn how to do it, but once you understand how, it's fairly easy. With Sample Modeling Brass, for instance, first you need to use their virtual soundstage settings to add early reflections and distance. Then you can add a nice room reverb or use a free tool like Panagement 2 to place the instrument in a slightly wetter space. Then create a track send to your favorite hall reverb and you're good to go. If you're clever, you can even use the same "Toasty Hall" IR that Spitfire uses for their instrument reverb. Save this all as a track template and you're good to go every time you load the instrument.
If they're from similar "neutral" rooms as I say, then its barely an inconvenience. Getting Sample Modelling to sit right is really hard for me. I've tried convolution, Virtual Scoring Stage 3, other reflection simulators, but it all felt "fake." Can't get a true room sound out of them
@@DIDCHOI Well, of course it sounds fake. It IS fake. All of this is fake. Expecting any sample library, no matter how or where it's recorded, to sound real to trained ears is a pretty high expectation. But your listening audience won't know the difference. I think we need to free ourselves of the need for authenticity. Concentrate on making great music instead and simply consider these tools in the toolbox. Many great songs were written and recorded with cheap guitars. It didn't matter.
@@braunhausmedia I’m a notation first guy, so I am REALLY music based. But I’m talking ease of use vs convincing realism. It’s much easier to get a convincing result with the configurations I mention than going in to mix the nitty gritty, like you say, it’s about the quality of the music
Vienna Symphony Library never disappoints even in Dorico but I use Noterperformer too on my smaller computers. Good point! I never understood the Spitfire Hype. And I am still waiting for the first realistic Oboe. I am an Oboist I know what the problem is. The typical Oboe sound is not just in the notes but in the transition between notes. 8Dio tried it with their Claire Oboe but overdid it IMHO.
Same! As a Clarinetist, I am entirely unhappy with every single library out there. Don't think we're there yet for solo instruments. Ensemble stuff sounds pretty convincing, but it's too hard to get proper legato transitions with solo stuff and crossfading.
i regret buying the strezov orchestral percussion bundle (8 libraires), way too wet even on the dryest/closet settings. unusable for me
Hi DID Choi, is it possible to transfer a license? I would buy from you a Sample modeling brass or Aarin Venture Brass for a discount.
No most companies forbid it in the End User Agreements
@@DIDCHOI I'm sorry to hear that
@@alontrigger Which is why I made this video! Can't resell haha
BBCSO. Don't get me wrong, it's a great library. but I should have gotten Infinite Brass, Infinite Woodwinds and Aria Strings. I'm currently using Sample modeling brass. It sounds great, but I EQ'd the horns quite a bit, and I use an expression pedal for expression and Divisimate to orchestrate chords for sketching...
Yeah, getting into an ecosystem that you are comfortable with is best. But of course, it's hard to find that without trying the different ones hahah
Aria Strings? Lol
Nice video! I’m starting to get my first commissions as a media composer and it’s time to move on from BBCSO Discover to another orchestral library. But I’m undecided between following the BBCSO series or buying other libraries such as CS, OT Berlin orchestra, CineSamples…
Could someone help me?
I have BBCSO Professional and I also have Cinematic Studio Strings + Woodwinds. I like the latter more. I've had to do way less programming work to get CSS/CSW to sound nice. Every patch in BBCSO seems to have different latency values which is frustrating. I still use BBCSO for the percussion though.
@@dakota.stlaurent Thank you!
Does Aaron Venture allow you to resell Infinate Brass and transfer the licence? If so, I will buy it from you, if you are interested in selling it?
They don’t allow reselling unfortunately
I regret most of my 8Dio stuffs (except Requiem Pro and the short notes of Adagio 1.5). Century Brass is good if you plan to play some Zimmer stuffs, but definitly not for some John Williams mockup.
I love the CineBrass Serie. I like the Spitfire Studio Orchestra, but it's not easy to use. BBC SO Pro is nice but I don't like the mix 1, mainly for the celli. And the brass are a bit to muddy to me.
The recent update of the Berlin Orchestra (the Berklee one) is way better. I mainly use the brass section which is a part of the original Berlin Brass. And the short notes of the strings section is good for any action ostinato.
I love Abbey Road One except the lack of legato for strings. But it sounds so great !
Finally it's always difficult to find a unique library that could fit all my needs... So my actual template is actually a mix of several libraries...
As I'm definitly addict to libraries.... my look is now set on the Berlin Symphonic Strings.... Do I need a doctor ?
Haha. No, you don´t but I have got similar addiction as you. It is always good to step aside and have a rest for some time. I have BBS SO Core but wish to have Close and Tree mics. Mix is too wet. Pro is too big for my use case. Abbey Road One is great but little bit limiting. Currently I don´t miss legato but I would prefer to have some real chords for each section. In any case BBC SO Pro + Abbey Road One sounds like a very good and sufficient "all in one" combination for me.
@@dustintheblacklight Yes, generally, I use Abbey Road One (with all the add-ons) with BBC SO for the missing instruments. And When I need more details in the Brass section, I use CineBrass, because, the brass in the BBC SO do not suit my needs. I recently tried Close + Tree in the BBC SO, with a bit of outriggers. It's way better for me....
@@dustintheblacklight I can't wait to ear the the string sections of the new Abbey Road Orchestra Serie... The low and high percussions sound already hawesome !
Definitely need a doctor, but it’s a global composer pandemic, so they might not be able to help much!
@@DIDCHOI maybe with a mask ?
Just a note: BBCSO was recorded at the BBC's own scoring stage at Maida Vale, not AIR :)
Yup! Don’t think I got it confused in the video? But for the record, I’m aware haha
You obviously don't really appreciate Spitfire ahaha tbh I only own Albion which was my very first orchestral library (I guess everyone begins with a Spitfire library lmao). I still use the double basses and low 8ve patches, they sound great for sub support. I haven't purchased any other library from them since then for the reasons you mentioned.
Edit : I don't own SM brass but I'm pretty tempted to get it someday. It's obviously not meant to be left dry as it sounds out of the box in fact with the right room as insert and sent in a hall reverb, it can add a great layer with Cinematic Studio Brass for example. Mattia Chiappa uses it this way and he achieves great sounding mockups
SM is good, but doesn't always work. It has a particular sound that ends up sounding a little different from hall mic'ed brass, but still can sound "real." Love it for solos!
Will not adding a reverb fix dry libraries?
I've found that they just don't sound the same.
Adding a reverb doesn't account for the directions instruments resonate in a hall, instead, it's like a narrow, single point speaker being put in a hall. A tuba will resonate upwards, but also in all directions with the bass energy. Most of the sound the audience hears will be stuff bouncing off the walls. Reverbs, even the best IRs, don't replicate that in my experience.
For solo stuff or brief things, yes a good IR, or for me recently, Berlin Studio, will let you get away with it. But if you ONLY use dry stuff with reverbs, I don't find it very realistic.
@@DIDCHOI Alright. There are some more expensive reverbs that has a more advanced engine. Some are even made for orchestral music in mind. I have not tried them tho.
@@jenstornell Yup, stuff like Altiverb, Berlin Studio all have orchestral settings. But still, they are measuring the hall with a speaker, clapper, or something similar, which doesn't bounce the same way a tuba or a horn or a flute does. It's real close, but not quite the same unfortunately. I did have pretty decent results with Berlin Studio
Aaron Venture's libraries are really player libraries. To people who think fiddling with keyswitches is a waste of time, Aaron Venture's stuff is a really time saver...
If you can perform those articulations perfectly with just the modeling~ I guess in the end, the reason I am not fond of SM or Infinite stuff is that I don't have the time to practice on those patches in the same way I would practice piano or any other instrument
@@DIDCHOI Totally understand where you're coming from. Since the keyboard is how we play these libraries, one's proficiency at playing the keyboard can affect what library seems best for a particular situation. For me, I like having Aaron Venture's stuff along with more traditionally configured libraries from Orchestral Tools and Spitfire...The best of both worlds approach. :) I do agree with you 100% regarding Spitfire's Symphonic Strings vs Chamber Strings. Chamber Strings is one of the best string libraries out there in my opinion. They put tons of effort into that library since it was the first big product they released (Sable) back in the day.
@@BradHoytMusic Exactly. I do still use both Infinite and SM all the time for specific lines that might not work so well on a sample library. I'm sure if I practiced 40 HOURS A DAY ;) on these patches, I could create better results much faster, but time is $$ haha.
I really wish I got Chamber strings instead those years ago. Think the smaller ensemble suits my style better, especially if I layer with CSS
My keyboard playing is atrocious and I love Aaron Venture libraries. You don't have to input in real time.
Any Thoughts on Vienna Library?
Don't have much experience with Vienna, were much above my price range when I was starting. I know they were the gold standard for many years. And their newer Synchron stuff sounds cool in the demos.
My first and last three library is CSS CSW CSB
You sir are a smart and lucky man!
I know it’s gonna be very controversial, but that’s why I believe there’s a reason for cracked sample libraries. That way, you can test them, and if you don’t like them, you can just delete them and forget about it. And if you test them and then you use them over and over, then it means you like them and therefore you need to buy them. Of course, I don’t encourage anyone to download and use cracked version, I just understand why someone would do it as a way to test them before to buy them.
Mmm controversial for sure. I think manufacturers should come up with a way to do trial versions. Or something similar to subscriptions where they allow you to try any library for a small fee that covers you for a month. Then you can buy what you need afterwards. Like a hybrid of subcription/perpetual.
God, I could write you a list the length of Chile. This is why all these companies need a refund policy. It is, quite frankly, intellectually dishonest of them not to have one. Surprised by your gripe with Spitfire´s legato/programming. For me, Spitfire strings (BBCSO, Chamber, Studio) have some of the best and most agile legatos out there. Same with the quality of the sound. I cannot say the same for some of their brass legatos or dynamic range (yeah, BBCSO brass). And I share your feelings regarding the old interfaces (for Kontakt), the way the patches used to be organised in those (the new interfaces are much better), and the overhyped marketing. I also find some of their libraries to be a bit too wet for my liking.
Just that each legato transition is an inconsistent length, same with short attacks, is what bothers me. If I were to hard quantize everything and offset it properly, everything should sound "perfect" but with spitfire, it doesn't. This means when I play things in, I have to account for the attack offset, my own playing tendencies, AND, the unknown variable of how long this particular note will take to play.
Love the Air studio sound though. Wish there could be mic merging like SINE so we can have a low footprint sound by default that uses more of the close mics in conjunction with the tree
Why don't you use a 3rd party plugin to create ER's with Aaron Venture Brass?
That's another idea, but I haven't done so because
1. It would be pretty much the same as Sample Modeling's approach which hasn't worked for me
2. I don't really have the $$ to get expensive reverbs/convolution/positioning. Got VSS3 and a few IRs but haven't had to much luck with Sample Modeling.
@@DIDCHOI fair enough. I just think AV Brass is good, as it has the shake, growl and flutter across all instruments, something all other libraries do not have, and some may have flutter, but you can not blend into it straight from legato.
@@DIDCHOI Get Seventh Heaven lite... It's about $69, and it's the last reverb I think I'll ever buy. :)
Seventh Heaven is looking really nice. Although I still don't think it really does enough to SM or Inf judging from Cory Pelizzari's demos. But some convolution models of a Bricasti? That doeees sound amazing. And fairly cheap. I'll have to check it out. Thanks for the recommendation
@@DIDCHOI Links to the Bricasti IRs that were created by Samplicity. I have both these and Seventh Heaven and I couldn't tell the difference: www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=14772251&postcount=22
The worst libraries, I have ever bought, are the symphony series woodwinds and brasses. They are just horrible, too wet and almost not really playable.
The good thing today is that there are only a handful of libraries that I consider essential for the professional composer that wants to make the orchestra sound real. Everything else is either outdated or blown away by these essential libraries. You all know which ones I'm talking about. They are mentioned time and time again on every TH-cam channel. If you don't know which ones they are...better get your popcorn and put the time in like we all did and you'll see there really is just a handful. However, that's all you need and that handful of libraries makes a complete orchestra with all the articulations that you'll need for just about every professional project. The only library that I will consider universal are the VSL libraries...and you know why. No need to explain myself. Synchron stuff sounds good, but you should go all Synchron if you go down that road; meaning, get at least every Synchron section with the basic articulations to start then go from there. Reason being, you'll want that sound throughout the sections and if you have to blend something else with it, at least you have a similar sonic quality from which to start. If you start building the foundation of a building with concrete, finish the rest of the foundation in concrete...then build on that.
Problem is for those starting, it seems like a huge investment. While for people with lots of other libraries it may seem like a no brainer
@@DIDCHOI You're absolutely right. We should all take a knee and have a moment for those unfortunate souls. Meanwhile, keep away from East West orchestral samples, unless you you're a glutton for regrets. Just so that they can't hate on me too much, their newer libraries or acceptable...but no one I know in Hollywood is using them for film or games.
@@matrixate They were good when they were introduced. And they're good as a starter. Subscribe a couple months while you learn to program and find better instruments. Better than getting something that's only decent and wasting money.
@@DIDCHOI Allowing you to rent them was a good move. Wish it were so back when I spent my hard earned money BUYING most of them. I wish I could rent any sample library before buying, then I could save enough to buy a house.
@@jameseverett4976 True!
interesting, vsl propose also good things...
True, I remember when I was starting out it was the best and most pricy haha. If you like the dry workflow, then their stuff is definitely super versatile
@@DIDCHOI synchronized series are wet (or dry if you choose close mic) and certains have great sound
you could have judt wrote symphonic strings and 2 brass libraries
Ha! would you have watched the video then? Lol, but its not really what it is, its why. I am emphasizing finding consistency in your template and the importance of programming
6:50!! VERY!!! C. Hanson is a cool a valuable youtuber but i left because TOO MUCH hype and cuts make me crazy. Not much intelectual substance.
Every Library is a con. EVERY library. You know it, too.
HAHAHAHA, well if we go that far...But then again, most instrumentalists are also cons. Give me the London Symphony in Abbey Road!
I’m done with the cinesamples stuff. I don’t want for anything. Giant sound and fools people all the time.
Good stuff. They seem to be rehauling and updating their line. Excited to see what they do
@@DIDCHOI their legato is peerless
@@Doty6StringI have Cinebrass and CineStrings and they sounds great (At least their respective most recent version).
@@dbp_pc3500 cinebrass has some amazing patches. that discant horn as well!
I wonder if this guy is going to be banned from V.I. Control for saying anything negative about Spitfire!? lol
Hahahahahahahahahahaha....(I hope not...)
@@DIDCHOI Great vid though! I enjoyed your honesty. ;)
@@chriscapaudio Thanks!
I don’t buy from spitfire anymore after their lackluster response to their co-founder being anti-trans.
Thank you!
Great video. I agree with everything you discussed.
Thanks!
I think you are being a bit too fussy. Where can we hear some of your demos? Because it mioght be that your mixing skills are not very good, and that's why you are having problems with the brass libs.
You're literally commenting on my channel, you can take a listen if you'd like :)
Perhaps it is my mixing skills, I'm a composer not an audio engineer mainly, BUT my point still stands that other libraries get me faster more realistic results WITHOUT having to do extensive mixing. And for me, speed is very important. I don't want to be putting positioning plugins/IRs on each instance of an instrument to take up CPU, when I could just stick in CSB or Cinebrass and get instant result ;)
And, I'm not the only one pointing out that IRs with close/dry recordings is NOT THE SAME as actual decca trees in a hall due to the ways instruments project sound differently. Using the same positioning/IR for a horn and trumpet will not give you accurate results, no matter how good of a plug in you're using.
Though I'm curious if this theory will stand if I stick a speaker playing a close mic'ed recording of a horn in a hall and record that on a decca tree. That would definitely be a cool experiment
@@DIDCHOI exactly. Regarding mixing skills i invite you all to. hear my old videos lol