Thank you Joe for pointing me out this video-experiment of yours, which I had missed. Very informative, as usual, with that bit of humour that is always much appreciated 👍🏻😊
You might have to take this with a grain of salt but: My Dad sails a Nacra inter 20 with a carbon mast but he used to be able to right it by himself. He puts the rightingline over his sholder, then behind his back to the trapese harnes hook. this makes for al les steep angle in the rightingline making it more effective.
Suggestion/question: will the Hawaiian pizza method work better if the bungie ran upand down the beams, so more more elastic allowed more rope play? I think though (as an engieer), over the top of the hull gives the greatest mechanical advantage. Once again Hobie have got it right.
@video: LOL But seriously: The righting process is following very simple physical laws (lever rules). This is why it doesn't matter, where the righting line is anchored anyway! If your righting line comes from above the hull it just will be easiest to lower your body far enough in order to achieve the maximum distance if your bodies center of gravity giving you the maximum lever for your body weight! So the hawaiian system is as good as any other, as long as you can lower your body streched and on the toes just slightly above the water and keep it there during the righting of the boat! All the best, Guenther
So then, technically speaking, if one were to carry a pole, that connected to the mast base and extended 3-4' above the upper hull, a righting line attached to that point would increase leverage, and reduce weight required to lift the tip???
If you use the pole just for altering the angle of the righting line and don't alter your body position, the righting momentum will not change anyway, cause neither the distance of your center of gravity nor your weight are altered at all! To increase the righting momentum, you can only follow two (or both) ways: 1.) Increase your weight with something (i.e. waterbag) 2.) Use a pole ore something else to increase the distance of your center of gravity. Personally I use a floating ladder (aluminium, foamed), which fits to the skeg of the lower hull and which I fix to the bow and the stern of the upper hull after capsize. When I step out on the ladder 3 steps and lower my body using the conventional righting line, I can right my Dart 20 solo easily, even in rough water (thanks to the stabilized stand on the ladder instead on a wobbly pole)! If you want to right the boat from a turtle position solo also, which for shure is much more difficult, and should be avoided by the right very first actions (Don't add any weight on the rigg and climb onboard at the bow instandly, then stand at the bow as far forward as possible sinking it a bit, and lean back until the boat is pointing into the wind), then you must use additional weight or find a way to support the ladder (or a pole) somehow to be able to move your center of gravity farther away from the mast!
We have been using a central righting line tied to the dolphin striker and kept in a Too small pocket on the tramp. Im checking out the Hawaiian system. Maybe gonna give it a go and evaluate it. The bungee cord (shock cord) goes bad pretty fast in the salt and sun. ...
From how I understand it my old physics lessons, the criterion that lifts the mast is always how much weight do I get how far out. The maximum is hanging out horizontally, arms up and like Pia lifting your leg. The higher up the line is, the lowwer the forces. It would make no difference in LEVERAGE and effect when you would pull directly from the foot of the mast without the detour over the hull - but the forces are way higher, I'd guess 4 times higher So the best tuning for your uprighting performance is not the attachment point of the rope, standard is OK, it is the power in your arms (and your technique) that you can go lower down.
I watched your righting bag video recently and you pondered simplifying the pulley purchase system. Did you ever get around to this? If not can I suggest trying the method slackliners used bitd to tension slacklines. They used webbing but should be OK with rope. One biner on bag handles, a pair of carabiners (or suitable rings) clove hitched to the line. Loop line through the handle biner and pair of biners several times, last pass of the line between the pair of biners. As the weight comes on the system it clamps the line passing through the pair of biners (might need half hitch to secure when you go hands free). Obviously won't be as swish as using blocks/pulleys, but potentially simpler/cheaper. (If the pull downwards is awkward maybe try pair of biners at handles, single on line so the pull is up)
Have you had a chance to try out this system??? I love your videos ... they inspire me to get out on the water every chance i get... keep up the good work and PLAY... Hobie 16 Upright Solo Righting System
Hi, no I haven't used the Hobie system. I'm glad that you're enjoying the videos. I can't wait until spring when i'll be able to get some boats back on the beach and get out there.
As long as the righting line is over the hull, they should be at the point where the hull is widest because when it doesn't move against the hill it might as well be fixed at the side of the hull for all the difference it makes . You just end up with a huge long rope if you tie it somewhere else
It looks like the Hawaiian system needs another knot for the opposite hull. If so, this kills the travel gained either direction, right? I'm rigging mine this way to try it tomorrow.
Great videos Joe!! If I were to visit Vasiliki, is there an opportunity to rent a H-16??? I am an owner of one and would be thrilled with the opportunity to sail one in Greece!!
Not encouraging… But a great video nonetheless… Thanks! I used a Hobie righting bag this summer in calm wind, near the shore to try to see if I could right the Hobie, (solo)… I am about 200 pounds, (approx 90 kg) and had, perhaps an extra 60 pounds in the bag, (though I couldn’t quite fill it)...Even then, the boat wouldn’t come up unless my son lifted up on the tip... Going to see if I can get a bigger bag…
@@JoyriderTV Thanks Joe...I must have been close to having enough weight...Theoretically, the Hobie branded 'Righting Bag' holds 150lbs of water (68kg), but it's difficult to fill the bag, (even with a plastic hoop holding the bag open)...Also, when you lean out against the bag, inevitably some of the water gets pushed out...Apparently, the Murrays' branded bag holds up to 250 lbs (113kg), so even if it isn't full, it should be able to get me over the hump...stay tuned...
This has, sort of, been discussed a few times on the Hobie forums. People wondering whether there was any advantage to be had by having the righting line coming from over the hull/under the hull/tied to dolphin striker/mast tang etc...It got very technical in places and I can't find the exact thread but here is a similar one. TLDNR = It makes no difference. BUT having a righting pole will defintely help...Joe get on it! www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=54587&hilit=righting+momentum
This was a test to see if the different anchor points made a difference. From previous on water testing, to get the 16 up with sails on the water with no wind takes 120kg
So sorry, but the mechanical advantage of the rope coming from the top of the lower hull to you (if you were able to hold it) or from over the top of the upper hull makes absolutely no difference in the righting moment. It's a static system. Another problem with the Hawaiin system is, after you've turned the tramp perpendicular to the wind to help the righting monent, you can pull on the top hull at only one fore-aft place - a problem if the wind tries to turn the boat so the wind on the tramp is helping less. If you use the rope coming from both fore and aft stanchions, you can walk fore and aft, using your weight on the bottom hull, changing the pivot point of the lower hull in the water and get the wind to pivot the whole boat till the tramp is directly perpendicular to the wind, at which point you lean out at that point to keep the boat from turning, using the wind to help you maximally. can right my H16 this way by myself @ 165 lbs (assuming a fairly strong wind). I used a water bag otherwise.
Hi Joe, I disagree with the conclusions on the hawaiian system, if you watch closely, the only one that operated it correctly was Pia from Sweden, she had her body straight and as horizontal as she could. The rest of you had the torso at a more vertical angle compared to the other tests. The lower angle of the line makes it a bit less natural to have a straight body but that's all the difference, just being aware of it to do it correctly would have given the same results. As per the physics, consider the boat plus the sailor as the system to analyze, it doesn't matter how is it that the sailor gets the body in the right position, those forces that keep him/her in position are forces internal to that system, there's an action and reaction and being both internal forces they cancel out. The only external forces that do the job are gravity and the support provided by the water. So if you manage to put your body in the same position, it will have the exact same effect. It might be a bit harder to hold your weight in one case compared to the other, but there isn't a limitation of leverage of one compared to the other.
Very interesting. The Hawaiian system is really nice in terms of the speed of deployment. I'll try it out on the water (using a better technique) Thanks
Thank you Joe for pointing me out this video-experiment of yours, which I had missed. Very informative, as usual, with that bit of humour that is always much appreciated 👍🏻😊
Thanks
You are just amazing! I love your enthusiasm
Thank you! Cheers!
I look at a video a day to learn from Joe. Awesome videos.
Wow, thanks!
The Hobie 16 is trained for years to obey Joe.....
Ha! Sometimes she misbehaves though.
You might have to take this with a grain of salt but: My Dad sails a Nacra inter 20 with a carbon mast but he used to be able to right it by himself. He puts the rightingline over his sholder, then behind his back to the trapese harnes hook. this makes for al les steep angle in the rightingline making it more effective.
interesting - i'll try that. Thanks
Suggestion/question: will the Hawaiian pizza method work better if the bungie ran upand down the beams, so more more elastic allowed more rope play? I think though (as an engieer), over the top of the hull gives the greatest mechanical advantage. Once again Hobie have got it right.
I'll give that a try - i think for convenience it's a good system - also less on the trampoline.
Great video! This really helps! Keep up the good work!
Thanks, will do!
@video: LOL
But seriously: The righting process is following very simple physical laws (lever rules). This is why it doesn't matter, where the righting line is anchored anyway! If your righting line comes from above the hull it just will be easiest to lower your body far enough in order to achieve the maximum distance if your bodies center of gravity giving you the maximum lever for your body weight!
So the hawaiian system is as good as any other, as long as you can lower your body streched and on the toes just slightly above the water and keep it there during the righting of the boat!
All the best,
Guenther
So then, technically speaking, if one were to carry a pole, that connected to the mast base and extended 3-4' above the upper hull, a righting line attached to that point would increase leverage, and reduce weight required to lift the tip???
And further, in full turtle, the same principle of pole extended up from the mast above the top of the hulls would reduce leverage to bring upright?
If you use the pole just for altering the angle of the righting line and don't alter your body position, the righting momentum will not change anyway, cause neither the distance of your center of gravity nor your weight are altered at all!
To increase the righting momentum, you can only follow two (or both) ways:
1.) Increase your weight with something (i.e. waterbag)
2.) Use a pole ore something else to increase the distance of your center of gravity. Personally I use a floating ladder (aluminium, foamed), which fits to the skeg of the lower hull and which I fix to the bow and the stern of the upper hull after capsize. When I step out on the ladder 3 steps and lower my body using the conventional righting line, I can right my Dart 20 solo easily, even in rough water (thanks to the stabilized stand on the ladder instead on a wobbly pole)!
If you want to right the boat from a turtle position solo also, which for shure is much more difficult, and should be avoided by the right very first actions (Don't add any weight on the rigg and climb onboard at the bow instandly, then stand at the bow as far forward as possible sinking it a bit, and lean back until the boat is pointing into the wind), then you must use additional weight or find a way to support the ladder (or a pole) somehow to be able to move your center of gravity farther away from the mast!
Great to get a bit of science involved! Thanks!
Cograts on 15k subs JB!!
Break out the bubbly!
Thanks! Will do!
We have been using a central righting line tied to the dolphin striker and kept in a Too small pocket on the tramp. Im checking out the Hawaiian system. Maybe gonna give it a go and evaluate it. The bungee cord (shock cord) goes bad pretty fast in the salt and sun. ...
Yeah, I can imagine - regular washing required. The Hawaiian system would be quite appropriate for you though!
Great video well explained.
Glad it was helpful!
From how I understand it my old physics lessons, the criterion that lifts the mast is always how much weight do I get how far out.
The maximum is hanging out horizontally, arms up and like Pia lifting your leg.
The higher up the line is, the lowwer the forces. It would make no difference in LEVERAGE and effect when you would pull directly from the foot of the mast without the detour over the hull - but the forces are way higher, I'd guess 4 times higher
So the best tuning for your uprighting performance is not the attachment point of the rope, standard is OK, it is the power in your arms (and your technique) that you can go lower down.
Thanks for putting the science into words!
See you soon?
Excellent info video. Thank you Joe.:)
Glad it was helpful!
Great video again!
Thanks again!
I watched your righting bag video recently and you pondered simplifying the pulley purchase system. Did you ever get around to this? If not can I suggest trying the method slackliners used bitd to tension slacklines. They used webbing but should be OK with rope. One biner on bag handles, a pair of carabiners (or suitable rings) clove hitched to the line. Loop line through the handle biner and pair of biners several times, last pass of the line between the pair of biners. As the weight comes on the system it clamps the line passing through the pair of biners (might need half hitch to secure when you go hands free). Obviously won't be as swish as using blocks/pulleys, but potentially simpler/cheaper.
(If the pull downwards is awkward maybe try pair of biners at handles, single on line so the pull is up)
Thanks for the idea, i'll certainly look into it.
Have you had a chance to try out this system??? I love your videos ... they inspire me to get out on the water every chance i get... keep up the good work and PLAY...
Hobie 16 Upright Solo Righting System
Hi, no I haven't used the Hobie system.
I'm glad that you're enjoying the videos. I can't wait until spring when i'll be able to get some boats back on the beach and get out there.
As long as the righting line is over the hull, they should be at the point where the hull is widest because when it doesn't move against the hill it might as well be fixed at the side of the hull for all the difference it makes . You just end up with a huge long rope if you tie it somewhere else
Yeah for sure. The simple method is the best which is surely why everyone has used that for years!
It looks like the Hawaiian system needs another knot for the opposite hull. If so, this kills the travel gained either direction, right? I'm rigging mine this way to try it tomorrow.
I was pretty sure at the time this was the right method. It seemed to work as it should,
nice !! and who takes care of the cat when tourists go home
The cat will be looked after!
That encourages me to add bacon to my burgers! 😆😆😆
Maybe even an egg?
At around 80kg, I always knew I needed a lightweight assistant to right my Hobie 16 who I later married!!! :)
Good choice!
Great videos Joe!! If I were to visit Vasiliki, is there an opportunity to rent a H-16??? I am an owner of one and would be thrilled with the opportunity to sail one in Greece!!
Yes! We are open from now until the middle of October, come down and take one for a spin!
Not encouraging… But a great video nonetheless… Thanks!
I used a Hobie righting bag this summer in calm wind, near the shore to try to see if I could right the Hobie, (solo)… I am about 200 pounds, (approx 90 kg) and had, perhaps an extra 60 pounds in the bag, (though I couldn’t quite fill it)...Even then, the boat wouldn’t come up unless my son lifted up on the tip... Going to see if I can get a bigger bag…
I found that with zero wind a total of 120 kg was enough to right the 16 fully rigged.
@@JoyriderTV Thanks Joe...I must have been close to having enough weight...Theoretically, the Hobie branded 'Righting Bag' holds 150lbs of water (68kg), but it's difficult to fill the bag, (even with a plastic hoop holding the bag open)...Also, when you lean out against the bag, inevitably some of the water gets pushed out...Apparently, the Murrays' branded bag holds up to 250 lbs (113kg), so even if it isn't full, it should be able to get me over the hump...stay tuned...
Thanks Joe. I best not solo sail a Hobie 16. I weigh 65 Kg.
Or you best not capsize! Or you could take a bag with you - Capsize righting with the bag
th-cam.com/video/1UyUZOP94-8/w-d-xo.html
This has, sort of, been discussed a few times on the Hobie forums. People wondering whether there was any advantage to be had by having the righting line coming from over the hull/under the hull/tied to dolphin striker/mast tang etc...It got very technical in places and I can't find the exact thread but here is a similar one.
TLDNR = It makes no difference.
BUT having a righting pole will defintely help...Joe get on it!
www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=54587&hilit=righting+momentum
Yep. The righting pole has been a long time coming. Very busy this week and next but after that i should have a bit more time.
So basically, you gotta be running a deuce (90kg/200lbs) to single handed right an H16??
Or bring a righting bag!
@@BillACK Still then, total weight in any configuration needs to be 90kg. It's a good magic number know.
This was a test to see if the different anchor points made a difference. From previous on water testing, to get the 16 up with sails on the water with no wind takes 120kg
Just grow taller with a heavy head! 😉
Good plan!
First! Yes!!!
Bingo! Gold star!
So sorry, but the mechanical advantage of the rope coming from the top of the lower hull to you (if you were able to hold it) or from over the top of the upper hull makes absolutely no difference in the righting moment. It's a static system. Another problem with the Hawaiin system is, after you've turned the tramp perpendicular to the wind to help the righting monent, you can pull on the top hull at only one fore-aft place - a problem if the wind tries to turn the boat so the wind on the tramp is helping less. If you use the rope coming from both fore and aft stanchions, you can walk fore and aft, using your weight on the bottom hull, changing the pivot point of the lower hull in the water and get the wind to pivot the whole boat till the tramp is directly perpendicular to the wind, at which point you lean out at that point to keep the boat from turning, using the wind to help you maximally. can right my H16 this way by myself @ 165 lbs (assuming a fairly strong wind). I used a water bag otherwise.
Hi Joe, I disagree with the conclusions on the hawaiian system, if you watch closely, the only one that operated it correctly was Pia from Sweden, she had her body straight and as horizontal as she could. The rest of you had the torso at a more vertical angle compared to the other tests. The lower angle of the line makes it a bit less natural to have a straight body but that's all the difference, just being aware of it to do it correctly would have given the same results. As per the physics, consider the boat plus the sailor as the system to analyze, it doesn't matter how is it that the sailor gets the body in the right position, those forces that keep him/her in position are forces internal to that system, there's an action and reaction and being both internal forces they cancel out. The only external forces that do the job are gravity and the support provided by the water. So if you manage to put your body in the same position, it will have the exact same effect. It might be a bit harder to hold your weight in one case compared to the other, but there isn't a limitation of leverage of one compared to the other.
Very interesting. The Hawaiian system is really nice in terms of the speed of deployment. I'll try it out on the water (using a better technique)
Thanks