It was up there for 35 seconds. I just don't know the source of that graphy and how reliable it is. Also, doesn't have the new motors I'm talking about.
Glad someone(u) put this together, as majority of riders have no idea. One important factor when deciding for a full fat or a light ebike is the riders weight, as it will have an enormous effect on consumption if you don't have enough Torque, I would set the tiping point at around 75kg, if you whey less go for the light ebike(lower Nm), if more definitely go full fat.
Absolutely agreed on both fronts. Thank you. I agree that these concepts are pretty hard to crystalize. And most will go through life not quite understanding what torque and power mean.
This toque curve seems to be for old motors as Bosch Gen2, Shimano 8000 etc., as max torque at the graph is 75. Very interesting to see the torque curve for actual motors, as it`ll be way more different.
Good explanation! This is why I don't understand the popularity of SL bikes. I don't mind if my ebike is a bit lighter--but not at the expense of power.
SL bikes are popular since some folks are very fearful of heavy bike weight. It is a work in progress for sure. The power is actually not the biggest crutch since most folks never ride in full Turbo mode of a full-powered bike. But the biggest downside is range. Since everyone needs that, especially heavier riders.
Thanks for this entertaining and informative video on torque and power. In particular, appreciated viewing the "torque vs rpm" curve characteristics of the different motor drive units. Is the "feel" of the pedal assist determined by the MDU manufacturer's algorithm only? Or, a mutual collaboration between the MDU and e-bike manufacturers?
Something I have been long aware of from my days modifying MX bikes in the 70's. Loved your presentation though and think most will find it easily understandable. I would comment on the piece about 1000W motors. Down here I do see more than a few of the Bafang 750W and 1000W motors, which sadly are easily modified to run a bit too powerful. However, as a track builder I will point to your comment about torque - that is most definitely an issue on the trails. The Bafangs and a few others can put out 95+ NM which really rips up the trails as it causes a lot of wheelspin under power if worked hard - made worse by many of them being in badly designed bikes which have too much weight forward causing rear end instability.
Correct. big amounts of torque can produce wheel spin with a throttle. Luckily, on Class 1 ebikes, there is no throttle and power comes on gradually with the pedal stroke, so can't induce a wheelspin or burnout.
The slower one's natural pedaling cadence, the more important torque plays a role. And in reality, pedaling at a high cadence, say above 80, requires more effort and aerobic effort and can make one's heartbeat get uncomfortably high when done for extended periods.
I would suggest looking at the comparison as if you are using a rechargeable drill. At the low setting, you have high torque (NM) and you can drive those tough screws. At the high setting, you have much faster speed (Watts) which you need for drill bits. Which one is better depends on what you are trying to do. If you do lots of climbing, torque is the key (NM). If you are a flat lander, it's go as fast as you can (Watts). Is this a reasonable way to look at it?
Correct my good man!!!! But electric mountain bikes have that major roadblock which is the 20mph speed limit motor cut-off. Because of that, in flatlands, most of the watts are not usable. The motor will cut off after about 100-150 watts. If unlimited speed limit, yes, the watts will come to good use for top speed.
@@EMTBReview Thank You! That is very useful. I'm in Florida, but I have noticed on my low-end ebikes, that an ebike made for Europe, or Scandinavia, with a 250 watt motor, does just as well as a motor rated at say 500 watts for The U.S. Your reply explains why. I always assumed that The U.S models overstated their wattage, and that the models from the across the pond understated their wattage. Now I know what is really going on. Again, Thank You!
Francis - I'm picking up what you are putting down. lol However I'm looking at the New Orbea Rise ( have you ridden one yet ?) - EP801 which supposedly is the Full 85nm but limited to 500w. I hear bikes with 85nm and 600watts are pulling away on climbs - I'm thinking about the new Rise but to me full power is 85nm and 600w
My 2024 Rise got damaged in shipping!!! They'll send another one they said. I think the Rise will be fine with its 500 watts of power. In a race, the 600 watter may pull away if climbing conditions are perfect. What it has is it will be able to maintain 85 nm of torque at a higher pedaling rpm. It'll pull away a little bit ... if conditions are ideal and the rider can maintain a high rpm on a steep climb.
@@EMTBReview Thanks - New Rise is $$$ - I already have the 2021 Rise M-team tricked out 160/160 and unlocked to 450watts. It flexy for sure ( thought about adding cascade components link) and can't deliver 85nm but at 42lbs it feels fast 70nm ish. I got 2 extenders for max ride time up here in Auburn CA area.
Nice video, very interesting! However, there is a gross error when you talk about watts and speed. You forget to consider that it's not about the absolute speed of the bike, but the speed of the motor. In other words, with a light gear, all motors are capable of reaching their peak wattage, whether it is 300, 600, or 1000 watts…."
Ahh , great point but there is a big limitation: the motor shaft is connected to the pedals and the rider’s legs. And the legs are really optimized for pedaling at 60-90rpm cadence. Anything above that is not efficient on a mountain bike trail and causes fatigue and pedal strikes. So…. Gearing helps but can only do so much
Your principal of working out the motor power is correct but your formula is wrong. The motor power is it's torque times the angular velocity. You state the angular velocity in RPM or Revs Per Minute. The power in Watts should be calculated by the torque in newton metres multiplied by the angular velocity in radians per second.
Historically, Newton (invented Calculus and described gravity 1st) has always been more important than Watson ( a fictional Doctor of Sherlock Holmes)😁. Alright, lame humor! James Watts was important too, just not as much to hill climbers. 👊
If torque is what's more important to you, don't buy a Bosch motor. They're only 600w so they'll overheat under heavy long loads which require more than 1kw. The manufacturi'g process is beautiful, but the long run maintenance of these motors is not sustainable because they're made by robots and can't be fixed by humans (the stator for exemple is impossible to fix if damaged).
67*85 is not 600W, so you should probably specify that there is a scaling factor. No, watts do matter for mountain bikes, and W = Amps * Voltage btw, but yes, technically also RPM * NM * ScalingFactor. So if you have 2000W motor, you can simply have a larger gearbox to provide you more torque, but stay under 20mph. So... WATTS matter, regardless of speed limits, because you can put it towards torque, thus you are wrong.
This is not a car where you can put a larger gearbox, unfortunately. We are limited now by standard 1x12 transmissions on bikes. Torque and watts on mid-drive bikes are measured on the spindle or bottom bracket so that already accounts for internal motor gearing. The other limiting factor is the RPM is required of the rider's legs since these are strictly power-assist bikes. There's a massive effort difference between pedaling at 60 rpm and 110 rpm. 110 rpm is dumb on mountain bikes.
The most important part about this video is the torque curve chart and it was flashed in a second before it’s gone.
It was up there for 35 seconds. I just don't know the source of that graphy and how reliable it is. Also, doesn't have the new motors I'm talking about.
Yeah definitely important but also up for longer than a second. Also just hit pause.
Glad someone(u) put this together, as majority of riders have no idea. One important factor when deciding for a full fat or a light ebike is the riders weight, as it will have an enormous effect on consumption if you don't have enough Torque, I would set the tiping point at around 75kg, if you whey less go for the light ebike(lower Nm), if more definitely go full fat.
Absolutely agreed on both fronts. Thank you. I agree that these concepts are pretty hard to crystalize. And most will go through life not quite understanding what torque and power mean.
This toque curve seems to be for old motors as Bosch Gen2, Shimano 8000 etc., as max torque at the graph is 75. Very interesting to see the torque curve for actual motors, as it`ll be way more different.
Right on FC. It took you less than 10 minutes to unlock the enigma of electric bike motors. Thank you.
I deciphered the enigma machine!!!!! Hey I watched The Imitation Game movie. :)
Good explanation! This is why I don't understand the popularity of SL bikes. I don't mind if my ebike is a bit lighter--but not at the expense of power.
SL bikes are popular since some folks are very fearful of heavy bike weight. It is a work in progress for sure.
The power is actually not the biggest crutch since most folks never ride in full Turbo mode of a full-powered bike. But the biggest downside is range. Since everyone needs that, especially heavier riders.
@@EMTBReview I love Turbo with my Levo! I get my rides done faster and I can still get 4K easily (I only weigh 153).
Excellent video. Thank you!
Very good explanation. NICE 👍
Thanks for this entertaining and informative video on torque and power. In particular, appreciated viewing the "torque vs rpm" curve characteristics of the different motor drive units. Is the "feel" of the pedal assist determined by the MDU manufacturer's algorithm only? Or, a mutual collaboration between the MDU and e-bike manufacturers?
Well, this is very informative, educational even. Thanks for putting out there! 👍
Glad it was helpful! TH-cam can be a great learning experience so we will do our part
thank you for the further edjucation! great info.
TH-cam is great for learning too. Even I learned a lot from others, researching this video
Great break down. Have you had any issues with bosch lock rings coming loose?
Thank you. No issues with Bosch lock rings so far.
Thanks for the lesson FC. Guess I just have to keep pedaling faster on my mid-power Levo SL to stay with my full-power Levo friends.
Hopefully you have a 2nd gen Levo SL... cause the first one has miniscule torque. :)
Something I have been long aware of from my days modifying MX bikes in the 70's. Loved your presentation though and think most will find it easily understandable.
I would comment on the piece about 1000W motors. Down here I do see more than a few of the Bafang 750W and 1000W motors, which sadly are easily modified to run a bit too powerful. However, as a track builder I will point to your comment about torque - that is most definitely an issue on the trails. The Bafangs and a few others can put out 95+ NM which really rips up the trails as it causes a lot of wheelspin under power if worked hard - made worse by many of them being in badly designed bikes which have too much weight forward causing rear end instability.
Correct. big amounts of torque can produce wheel spin with a throttle. Luckily, on Class 1 ebikes, there is no throttle and power comes on gradually with the pedal stroke, so can't induce a wheelspin or burnout.
Fantastic info, thank you! Ordered a cadence sensor for my Wahoo head unit. 😊 Now to train at 67 rpm.
This was helpful🤙, Brose has 90Nm but torque curve is disappointing, interesting.
Yes, that 90nm is good. For Specialized Levos, they keep downgrading the torque with firmware updates to prevent the belt from failing .
@@EMTBReview Really? I thought that was just me getting older! Any idea what the actual nm is now?
@@EMTBReview how can they get away with that ? kinda crappy if someone bought a 90nm bike and they are only getting 80nm or worse less!
I have a slow cadence - 58 or so - so Torque is important for me!
The slower one's natural pedaling cadence, the more important torque plays a role. And in reality, pedaling at a high cadence, say above 80, requires more effort and aerobic effort and can make one's heartbeat get uncomfortably high when done for extended periods.
I would suggest looking at the comparison as if you are using a rechargeable drill. At the low setting, you have high torque (NM) and you can drive those tough screws. At the high setting, you have much faster speed (Watts) which you need for drill bits. Which one is better depends on what you are trying to do. If you do lots of climbing, torque is the key (NM). If you are a flat lander, it's go as fast as you can (Watts). Is this a reasonable way to look at it?
Correct my good man!!!! But electric mountain bikes have that major roadblock which is the 20mph speed limit motor cut-off. Because of that, in flatlands, most of the watts are not usable. The motor will cut off after about 100-150 watts.
If unlimited speed limit, yes, the watts will come to good use for top speed.
@@EMTBReview Thank You! That is very useful. I'm in Florida, but I have noticed on my low-end ebikes, that an ebike made for Europe, or Scandinavia, with a 250 watt motor, does just as well as a motor rated at say 500 watts for The U.S. Your reply explains why. I always assumed that The U.S models overstated their wattage, and that the models from the across the pond understated their wattage. Now I know what is really going on. Again, Thank You!
Bro, love your videos
Thanks my brother!
Francis - I'm picking up what you are putting down. lol
However
I'm looking at the New Orbea Rise ( have you ridden one yet ?) - EP801 which supposedly is the Full 85nm but limited to 500w. I hear bikes with 85nm and 600watts are pulling away on climbs - I'm thinking about the new Rise but to me full power is 85nm and 600w
My 2024 Rise got damaged in shipping!!! They'll send another one they said.
I think the Rise will be fine with its 500 watts of power.
In a race, the 600 watter may pull away if climbing conditions are perfect. What it has is it will be able to maintain 85 nm of torque at a higher pedaling rpm. It'll pull away a little bit ... if conditions are ideal and the rider can maintain a high rpm on a steep climb.
@@EMTBReview Thanks - New Rise is $$$ - I already have the 2021 Rise M-team tricked out 160/160 and unlocked to 450watts. It flexy for sure ( thought about adding cascade components link) and can't deliver 85nm but at 42lbs it feels fast 70nm ish. I got 2 extenders for max ride time up here in Auburn CA area.
Nice video, very interesting! However, there is a gross error when you talk about watts and speed. You forget to consider that it's not about the absolute speed of the bike, but the speed of the motor. In other words, with a light gear, all motors are capable of reaching their peak wattage, whether it is 300, 600, or 1000 watts…."
Ahh , great point but there is a big limitation: the motor shaft is connected to the pedals and the rider’s legs. And the legs are really optimized for pedaling at 60-90rpm cadence.
Anything above that is not efficient on a mountain bike trail and causes fatigue and pedal strikes.
So…. Gearing helps but can only do so much
wait.. if the torque curve graph is accurate, that means the majority of the time on my turbo levo, I'm only at between 35-55NM?
I believe that's an old Brose motor, not the one found in the Specialized Levo bikes.
Your principal of working out the motor power is correct but your formula is wrong. The motor power is it's torque times the angular velocity. You state the angular velocity in RPM or Revs Per Minute. The power in Watts should be calculated by the torque in newton metres multiplied by the angular velocity in radians per second.
Makes sense. Do you have a link that explains it clearly. Perhaps I can modify the video or link to the resource.
Did someone say DJI? 🤔
Rrrrrright? The DJI force is looming on the ebike horizon.
Historically, Newton (invented Calculus and described gravity 1st) has always been more important than Watson ( a fictional Doctor of Sherlock Holmes)😁. Alright, lame humor! James Watts was important too, just not as much to hill climbers. 👊
Nyuk, nyuk... :)
If torque is what's more important to you, don't buy a Bosch motor. They're only 600w so they'll overheat under heavy long loads which require more than 1kw. The manufacturi'g process is beautiful, but the long run maintenance of these motors is not sustainable because they're made by robots and can't be fixed by humans (the stator for exemple is impossible to fix if damaged).
Isn't power measured in watts and torque in newton metres? I've done many 13km climbs of 500m in 37C temperatures without any overheating.
Bosch is the most reliable motor on the market. You have your brands mixed up😂
That made no sense . But we appreciate you taking the time to comment
67*85 is not 600W, so you should probably specify that there is a scaling factor.
No, watts do matter for mountain bikes, and W = Amps * Voltage btw, but yes, technically also RPM * NM * ScalingFactor. So if you have 2000W motor, you can simply have a larger gearbox to provide you more torque, but stay under 20mph. So... WATTS matter, regardless of speed limits, because you can put it towards torque, thus you are wrong.
This is not a car where you can put a larger gearbox, unfortunately. We are limited now by standard 1x12 transmissions on bikes.
Torque and watts on mid-drive bikes are measured on the spindle or bottom bracket so that already accounts for internal motor gearing.
The other limiting factor is the RPM is required of the rider's legs since these are strictly power-assist bikes. There's a massive effort difference between pedaling at 60 rpm and 110 rpm. 110 rpm is dumb on mountain bikes.