My pal fell into a canal on his Mondraker Crafty R with the Bosch motor. He and the bike were totally submerged. His bike was fine, and was checked by a mechanic. Interesting his iPhone which was supposed to be able to be submerged was ruined.
My Bosch Gen 2 Powerline CX now has over 12,800km on the clock. I have just pulled it down and it was spotless. I checked all the bearings, clutch bearings and nylon gears all are perfect. I poped off the rubber seals and re packed with marine lithium gears and silicone, PTFE based greas on nylon gears. The bearing that had steel shields I've replaced with rubber seals and re packed the bearings. I thought by now the bearings may have been a little dry or had some play, but no. So no bearings clutch bearings or gears have been replaced. just a couple of bearing shields. I did add a shaft seal to the crank drive side instead of crank shaft and did give the crank shaft a clean as there was a tiny bit of suface corrosion between the outer bearings and crank shaft. Looking at the condition I'd say this motor will last 30-35,000km before anything will need replacing.
Son dynamo built a pressurised silicone air bladder into their hubs to solve this very problem and now they give a 50,000 kilometre warranty on their bearings.
Besides moisture Pedal strike puts a massive shock on the sprag bearings which also leads to failure. Seriously : We should all have one motor spare.All expensive top of the range models should come with a spare motor to justify the price and give purchasers peace of mind. E=Mtb²
@@Shawn-in-da-Canyon Yes they actually already do give free motors. I know people who have had 5 replacement motors under warranty. It is not uncommon for most brands to GIVE at least one within the warranty period so we are already paying up front within the price structure. E=Mtb²
@@robhaskins3068thats for those who actually put a lot of miles on it, for those who are only using it in the summer months they are getting extremely poor value for money when 5 year's in and there's no replacement availability.. then you have £2500 worth of ewaste. The EU needs to step in like it did with USBC and force Standardisation with motor mounting patterns and battery standards
currently a lot of the motors are a total write-off from water ingress. circuit boards get no extra protection and it seems to often be that which makes the whole thing landfill. Protect the circuit boards better (completely seal them away), and allow moisture to escape the rest of the motor via one-way valves/membranes. I don't think you can stop water getting in, but you can allow it to get out.
@stuartbayliss9251 plus chem interactions. But seriously, we've been coating many phone pcb's for years, and there are conformal coatings and varnishes that are up to the task. If you're deicated enough to do a pcb smt repair these days, I can't see such a coating stopping you... however most any service repair is going to put in a fresh part anyway, if there is a physical failure.
All I can say is, I’m so thankful that I live in Southern California, where it’s always dry. I couldn’t deal with that constant mud and constant bike cleaning.
I feel ya. Not in CA but in Qld Australia. We get an average of 3-5 rainy days over winter and 9-10 during summer. Even then it's not normally set in and the trails are never complete sludge. It would drive me crazy.
The issue not mentioned here is that sealing a rotating shaft comes with a compromise and that is DRAG! The better you seal it, the higher the drag. And people really don't like drag on their cranks and drivetrains........
My brand new levo sl mode selector switch packed up after owning it for 4 weeks, and 4 months into owning it, my motor just failed. Wasn't ever exposed to any ridiculous conditions.. all I am thankful for is the warranty
you got burned mate, getting a LEVO is not smart imo. They spent their money on advertisements, not on good bikes. My 2 cents. I own a Cube brand downhill emtb.
@@2011buddylee ik heb een Turbo Levo Gen1 van 2017 met ruim 16.500km. In 2022 flink onderhoud gedaan, nieuwe seals, lagers etc, maar nog nooit problemen gehad! Ik rij het hele jaar door. Ben dan ook zeer tevreden😎
I think the pressurized motor submersion test shown at the bafang factory simulates the same situation as Ray's demonstration. It creates an environment where there is higher ambient pressure outside the motor than inside the motor while water is present all around the seals. I agree with other commenters who have stated that forces on the crank shafts, or other mechanical forces applied to the motor while exposed to water are the most likely culprits for how water ingress can happen in real-world use.
I am on my 3rd Bosch motor in 4 years for my 2019 Cannondale Moterra. Bosch graciously covered the second motor that had bearing failures even though it was 2 weeks past a 2 year warranty. After 3 years on that motor it also had bearing issues after a single submersion. I sent it to have the bearings replaced in the US by Performance Line Bearings. 2 months later the motor shutdown at the start of a ride and would not restart. It remained at a shop for 2 months to diagnose the issue. A new motor did not fix the issue and then it was discovered that it also needed a new head unit which seemed to have also stopped working. Finally it worked again! So after $500 in new bearings I spent another $1000 to get a new motor. I hope to get at least 2 years out of this motor before any further issues. Although Bosch is rated high for reliability, I think the gen 2 motor, and other manufacturers, could do a much better job of sealing their bearings. The gen 2 version 3 motor only had a oil felt washer on the right side and nothing on the left side to protect the main bearings. Performance Line sells a good seal to add to the right side. A circlip prevents adding a similar seal to the left side so that is still very exposed. I do not see why it is so difficult to design a motor with better sealed bearings, in my view.
Thanks Steve! They are doing sampling in the Bafang test lab. Not all motors are tested but certain number of motors per batch. The Bafang looks great in testing & design for sure! No way that I can submerge my CX motor by Bosch :-) Shame on you Bosch....I'm just saying. Steve, how about if would you make a list of motors by manufacturer, where the IP rating is listed. You could go over the topic in some discussion video and make the issue more visible. This is still one thing that is not taken seriously enough by some manufacturers. Some manufacturers are not listing the IP rating, because they will fail for sure :-)
I'm actually proud to have a BaFang motor in my bike.....they are a lot bigger company than I realized....They don't leave one stone unturned to build the best Battery Powered drive unit on the market...
Bafang has shown that they are aware of this even in this video. The test in the pressure tank is exactly that. Cooling down the motor quickly would result in a vacuum inside it, which is physically speaking exactly the same as increasing the outside pressure. Rays calculation shows more of what would would happen with an incompressible medium such as water inside the motor, air on the other hand can compress under high pressure very well or expand under low pressure. I am not saying he's wrong, but the amount of water sucked inside would be far less ( depending on the quality of the seals) than the calculation would suggest because it is missing the seals as factor. This might be another reason why ZF has chosen to move some electronics out from the motor. When I remember correctly the battery electronics are placed in the upper part of the battery compartment, maybe they're onto someting with this idea.
@@haemmertime if rapid cooling creating suction is a problem then why don't the just fit a breather pipe to a safe location, seams a pretty simple fix to me.
@@superchickensoup true, this might be a solution, it comes with downsides though. Mainly it would increase the air volume the motor, by that when the air cools down it would cause a greater suction into the motor. When the inlet would be in the water at the same time (maybe a in an accident/crash) as the motor gets cooled down it might result in more water getting pulled in. There are pressure equalising tanks in hydrolics to absorb peaks, I would consider this a better solution, because they can be integrated in a sealed system and don't require any electronics. These however would add weight to the motor. But that's enough armchair science from me, have a beautiful day
So, based on the latest information presented, a simple vented hose set up would be the answer to the rapid cooling suction issue. If my motor ever fails, I will modify the replacement as described. 😊
I fully understand that someone enjoying riding in rain and mud... but this is something what I really dont want to do :-) I try to avoid water as possible. @embn you mentioned at the end that some motor are more reliable than other... please be more specific. Which motor are most reliable?
Not Bosch.... Maybe I was unlucky. But I had to have new motor put in my 2018 Trek Powerfly5 in 2022. Oh by the way, do not take it to the Bike Barn in Phoenix AZ. Epic Fail...!! Do I sound bitter....lol? It took over a month!
Specialized bike here , 3 years old , 3rd TCU, 2nd motor , 2nd battery to motor harness cable , all water ingress, ridden probably once a month .Here in the UK imho , not fit for purpose .next eebs will be pinion bike anyway. ebbs Costs a fortune in drivetrain components too.!eats em for breakfast!
@@danielsimmonds5162 yes, I’m aware the gearbox has been around for awhile, I used to own a bike with one. But the MGU hasn’t been out long enough to say that it will be any more durable than any other motor out there. The gearbox itself is simple, no electric components to worry about. The MGU will have all the same potential problems as all the other motors.
@@embn most definitely. I do ride a lot in winter here in Colorado. 15 miles or so on a ride. On my 2022 husky with the ep8 in snow roughly 6 inches to 1 foot uses up all my battery yeah. But it was Soooooo fn fun. My new Rocky Mountain instinct just showed up on Wednesday 7/24/24. Heading out later to 10,000 ft to beat the heat. Happy Trails embn
4x4ers know the water from sucking in water when hot plunged, hence diff geabox etc have breather tubes to higher up in the vehicle (often upto the snorkel.
One answer would be to make them easy to service with widely available, reasonably priced, spares. Who cares if you have to change bearings every year if you can do it 8n an hour for about £20. Same goes for electronics, components/boards are cheap as chips, just make them easy to swap and cheap to buy.
Was looking at Bosch CX gen4 and I'm surprised the replacement cost is under $600 all in from reputable Bike shops on ebay. Says they are fully programmed. If that's plug and play by me there's no sense in getting a shop to repair an old motor.
There's no excuse why any of these motors can't withstand IPX5 water ingress standards. They are designed to be used in mountain bikes, and mountain bikes are going to get wet. My Shimano E8000 has been transported on the back of my SUV for 4 years and has done over 5,000 mi, I just cracked it open to regrease it and it was dry as a bone inside. If these things are properly sealed, they should never have water ingress.
@@XennialGuy that's absolutely true. But there are even ways to prevent moisture sucking into the motor, even when a sealing isn't working properly. They could do it by a membrane.
Excellent demo of how wet air gets sucked in. I really only ride in dry weather and avoid the wet days. My motors haven't failed in 5 years (3 eMTBs). I live in Australia where we have longer dry periods, but there's plenty of wet days too in winter.
Riding in the rain is not the issue. If a hot motor is cooled quickly, especially if immersed in water, it will likely ingest some moisture with the inevitable consequences.
More videos like this please. Would be great to know which motors are more susceptible to moister/water ingress. A big'ol survey from riders regarding reliability / warranty process, would be incredibly useful and help consumers make informed decisions.
Hmmm… would be an interesting test to put a nonconductive oil in a current ”dry” motorhousing. PC builders have been immersing computers with fans and all for years.
Indeed. After just two years, never submerged, but in a humid climate, my gen2 report was: "Your motor was in pretty rough shape. The main issues we found are badly pitted crank shaft, broken sprags, worn belt, lots of corrosion and dirt ingress. Also your planetary gears are broken". I had it checked by an authorized Specialized dealer just within 4 years, but they didn't definitively determine the motor was failing. So no warranty from the warranty weasels at Specialized
@@robertpatrick3350 There shouldn't be a single review that doesn't talk about total cost of ownership of the motor-related components (we are already familiar with wear and tear of other components). Instead most just talk about the performance of the glossy and new. Case in point: I see a @FlowMountainBikeTH-cam review of the new Bosch SX, "the motor you've been waiting for", without any discussion of serviceability, reliability, water ingress rating, etc.. Without that info, it is definitely not the motor I've been waiting for.
👍Crankcase/engine ventilation with venting high up in the frame should solve this negative pressure/vacuum problem that exists. Even a temperature hike around 0°C, is also a problem that can fill an engine and other closed vessels with water🤔
I've got a Bafang motor and they are defiantly not waterproof, mine lasted just over 2 years before it gave up , All weather riding, sun, rain and snow but never submerged under water. The biggest culprit is rain water mixed with road grit.
I so much hope you're right!!! I'm ride my E-Fully with the Bosch CX nearly every day in the riparian forests near my home. It's quite moist and muddy on these trails. Really hope the CX holds up for some time.
Until bearings are redesigned my emtb won't see water if can help it! But certainly the blue head gasket sealer will help on your outer metal skin of the bearings and a tad on smaller crank one my mate even has thread lock on his and work's so its not hard for them so cut a channel to seat an O Ring!
Seems like the answer is a vent tube that runs up the seat tube into a flexible air bladder of say 30 or 40 cc. Motor cools and sucks in air from the bladder, motor warms up and pushes the air back into the bladder.
Had 3 e-bikes in the last 4 years. Each bike has needed a new motor at varying ranges but probably about 5000km in total. 2 have been done on warranty one done at half price as a good will gesture.
Just my input, I don't own an EMTB and am put off doing so ue to experiences I hear but I've worked in the automotive repair industry as a mechanic for 30 years and water ingress in mechanic components is not a massive problem.when you consider the amount of exposed shafts on engines, gearboxes, axles and steering racks etc, all with fairly conventional seals and they do not fill up with water and are certainly exposed to a lot more, they do however have oil in and are generally vented at a high point to allow for expansion of pressure within due to heat build up. I do think some cues could be taken from the automotive industry to seal and protect these basic light duty motors by comparison. Like I say, it's just my opinion.
Perfectly sealing a motor will always be hard because you need a moving shaft or similar to go from the inside to the outside to transfer the torque. A perfect seal would only be possible with a magnetic coupling - but that is inefficient and poorly suited to a vehicle engine because it will easily slip under high torque. It's also very heavy, and costly. There are some less compressible gases that could be used to fill the motor interior so this effect was reduced, but there are no gases that don't compress at all, so it's far from a perfect solution. Filling the engine with oil just like we have done for decades with gearboxes is probably the best solution. I don't know if this would cause any issues for an electric motor though. I don't think it's incompatible. It's probably not done mainly due to keep costs low I imagine.
Having had bearing replaced in our bosch motors, & being a mechanic. Should the motors not have a breather tube up into the frame, to allow air transfer without sucking it past the seals ? Love your channel 👨🔧
Ray's experiment works well in an open eviroment and when the air pressures can equalize. When introducing correct sealing, the capillary effect susides dramatically. Don't forget water molecules are larger than Air molecules.
Would a tiny breather hose running inside the frame help. Would almost ensure dry air pulled into the motor due to least resistance. Maybe seal replacement and regular greasing intervals should be undertaken. Im no expert, just a thought.
Can the motors have a breather pipe fitted up into the top of the frame with a one way valve to release temperatures of the motor? Maybe the one way valve would have to become a checked/serviceable item but would aid the motor from water ingress?
I have a Lappierre with a Yamaha Pw motor and just fitted a new set of crank bearings due to noisy when peddling. Somewhat disappointed with the poor weatherproof crank bearings. It is 5 years old and would hope new motors are now better protected. Main bearing kit was £52 and it took me about 2.5 hours to change. Quite simple really. However, with improved seals these bearings would have lasted far longer.
Again, so happy to see another video using the footage from the BAFANG visit. Keep it coming… can’t wait to see some reviews on some motors…. Particularly the m560 and m600, just sayin
This is the same issue on the input seal on a vehicles steering box mostly rack and pinion these days. You have oil heated in the gear by hydraulic friction. You then drive through a puddle on the road and a wheel splashes water onto the pinion top of the valve housing. This cools the valve housing which shrinks in length slightly and cools the oil in the valve housing which sucks in some residue water past the seal lip. In sub zero zones around the world parking overnight results in more cooling of the steering gear and oil. This is why most input seals on Rack and Pinion steering gears are double lipped to stop ingress (outer seal lip and leakage out from the inner seal lip. This requires a high temperature grease between the lips to stop excess seal lip wear.
The motor is sealed so when it gets hot the inside gets pressurised. When it cools, the pressure returns to normal, no sucking involved. Also water is more dense than air so it won't necessarily pass through the same hole. Nice demo but not sure it's "real world". Worn seals are a more likely culprit.
They certainly won’t be sucking in moisture as per Rays experiment but I’m not sure what the actual waterproofing the seals get from things like water jets etc
What is needed is an expansion chamber with an rubber diaphragm which will allow expansion and contraction as mentioned it would only need to be very small perhaps 5cc’s
Car differential have breather. For this reason. A tube that sits higer an safe from water. So when the diff cols down it will suck air from the breather and not the seals
I have found the Bosch CX on my Trek Rail to be rather fragile. I’m on my 3rd motor, motors 1 and 2 both failed due to water damage. Can’t fault Bosch on there warranty though. Last one was turned sorted within 4 days.
Recently purchased a nice Canyon e-bike and love it. But I will not be riding it in wet conditions. I wash it with gentle streams of water and water gets in the down tube where the battery is causing the battery and associated wiring to get wet.
SOOOOOOOOO SMARTTTTTT! i know that for sure, when you have a slightly warm drink half full in a bottle with the lid screwed tight, put it in the fridge or even take it outside in the cold and the bottle air volume will shrink!
I've had ebike specialized Kenovo expert for 4 years and water has never been a problem and I am on my 6th motor it's always belt or sprag clutch failure and I ride all year round and pressure wash the bike down mainly in the winter but know where to on the bike and where not to. The batteries are very good, broke one frame and one set of wheels one swingarm but all was replaced by specialized who are very good. The wiring was replaced one on the motor but that was a warranty update and has been all good. If the belt and sprag was fixed I think these motors would fantastic. The belt has been updated not sure on the clutch but on average I get 3500 miles on each motor of hard use. The 4year warranty to orginal owners was a welcome thing that Specialized brough in and I can't fault them.
Congratulations for bringing science into the game. Just like the suggestion of filling motors with oil: when you bring science into a discussion you leave no place for opinion and misinformation that abound in the internet.
Had my ebike less than 2 years and the frame has cracked 3 times. Got a new frame and the rear brake mount cracked and the brake fell out, then the frame cracked at the same place my first bike cracked. Total of 4 rides on the new frame and nothing aggressive. Motor seems to have done fine so far and I'm dying to ride it through a ford but I'm to scared . It will be fully submerged for at least 10 seconds.
Simple cure is to add a breather hose that sits up in the frame that won’t dray in moisture , you see this everywhere in the automotive industry to cure this issue , and an oil filled motor would suffer from the same thing , so that’s not a solution
I am on my 3rd Bosch CX motor! The last one failed in hard rain on the Climachx trail near DYFI bike park. Granted it rained hard and after 5 minutes we rode through all puddles but have NOT submerged the motors! Both motors (my friends was a shimano motor) failed within 30 seconds of each other just as we finished riding. Not impressed with Bosch. If the motors are so sensitive to water ingress then don’t sell them for MTBs.
Problem: Temperature differential creating moisture vacuum. Solution: 2 (two) 4mm drilled and taped holes in the motor case. One upper, one lower. Vent hoses and one-way check valve. Bonus Solution: Mechanical venting system in addition to the above. Pedal driven. Basically, it's a positive crank case vent. Water ingress, a non-issue. But corrosion will be. Oil filled or bathed is the only way. But still will need vented.
By that theory when they warm up again the heat will produce pressure inside which could force liquid back out if there was a one way valve placed correctly on a water collection point maybe.
Water tends to stick to surfaces. Also some water will evaporate inside a warm motor and condensate when it gets cold again. If you pour water out of a bottle and then seal the bottle again, it will contain enough water to stain some metal inside. So, without good ventilation of a motor interior this will not work.
Just done 1100km shimano ep8 spins internally but no assistance to chain ring . Shimano are replacing it under warranty . I live in Australia southern Victoria so not hot Australia ! Never submerged the motor in water never used high pressure cleaning . I wash my bike about 30-60 mins after a ride rinse it over with a hose after bike standing up right never upside down . And I’m pretty sure it’s water ingress is the reason for failure that is not good enough.
yes the motor should have oil in them and a full maintenances kit with seals and bearings that you can install on say a yearly basis. I mean you do that with head sets and other things on the bike. As far as blaming it on pressure washers the manufactures aren't being completely honest yes you shouldn't use them but, it happens to bike that have never seen pressure washers. Every decent manufacture should have a full service kit and bike shops should offer the install service and also sell the kit. It's a win win they make money your motor is kept up. The other way customers are unhappy and may not want to buy from you again. Also people are still going to buy new motor for various reasons.
They never build them with an IP rating required , basically non are fit for purpose and that’s excluding transport or cleaning as you try to elude to.
I wish someone told the eCycling industry that there are these things called EV's and imagine this, they also use motors AND GET THIS their motors are exposed to way worse conditions and are sealed properly. WOOOOOOAAAAAAAH🤯, right?
I'm about to buy an Orbea Rise LT M10 which costs almost 8000 euros, but there's one thing I don't know and I'd like to. How much does a Shimano engine like the one on the bike costs, if I need or want to buy one separately? And a 630WH battery?
That repeated dunk test in dirty water is quite impressive. Maybe motor manufacturers could "fill" their motor with dry nitrogen gas before sealing up. Nitrogen is used in race tires because it expands less than moisture laden "air". Anyway, just thinking out loud.
Just did shimano E8000 bearing replacment after 15k of commuting and was really suprised that There was 0% water ingress. After countless hours of jet washing and few times submerged in a flooded Thamse river foot path it does make me wonder how in the world the mottor is not dead???
Just another notch in the belt for the new ZF company since their oil bath not to mention there's some behind the scenes leaks. No pun intended that the ZF motor runs closer to 120 newton meter
I do waterproof IPX7 certified motors. It's costly and only high level competitors book this modification. It takes days for high temp silicone and red insulating varnish from mg chemicals to cure. Depending on motor size and riders budget it starts from 250€ up to 600€ ebikes only. Mechanic engineer forgot to mention condensation...
I think the motors aren't robust enough, forget about water, they're just not reliable. I'm on my 4th motor on my turbo levo and everything but the battery has been replaced but it still let's me down, I can't plan anything or go anywhere as I know theses a good chance it'll let me down. You need to look into if these motors are fit for purpose.
Traxxas can make RC cars and motors waterproof and they are 100% waterproof, I know this from my kids driving theirs into a lake and laughing their heads off. The car is 11 years old now and still runs fine.
It could be that at 1 way valve might be another point for failure? It would be interesting to see if what Ray explained is considered when companies develop motors!
It is simply a fact of life that ALL seals have a lifespan. And that they will wear down. Dirt plus water is an abrasive mixture that will destroy every seal sooner or later. And yes, this means maintenance. And depending on your habits this can be in longer or shorter intervals. A pressure washers forces the abrasive water-dirt mix into the seals which is simply a death sentence. Maintenance can capture this while only the seal is damaged instead of the whole motor. These eBike motors are incredibly rug sized and survive an incredible amount of abuse but you simply have to understand that is ability to withstand the elements will end sooner or later. Even standard bottom brackets break down eventually and mid drive motor units contain these on top of the electronics.
Would gorilla tape all around the motor seal to prevent suction from direct outside air and put a few desiccant silica pouches inside the small void space in the motor to capture any water mist. Could that help just enough to mitigate any sucking in of water vapours? I think I would not mind some ugly water proof tape around the motor housing if it helps protect the motor. I guess can’t do much about the crank area and bearings. Just add more grease there. Once a month or two you have to open the motor and dry it out and replace the desiccant silica pads so they can absorb the water. Why not weight them to track how much water they absorb. Would make an interesting test for embn to see how much of the water even minuscule amount gets in the motor after so many typical rides. It don’t have to be raining for the motor to suck in humid air which the uk is famous for. I have had 3 motors break. One from watery grease on the inner motor gear and two from galvanised screws that’s where they use steel screw on aluminium engine case and they fuse together so you strip the screw head as it’s so stuck so you can’t take the motor out. I suspect that water speeds up the galvanising process. Now I use copppa slip grease on my screws to prevent that.
Blue head gasket sealer from AutoSave or Halfords around the bearings, as it's metal on metal, but the bearings need to be completely redesigned with gasket channels cut in like grooves and an O-ring seated and a cork one maybe on the inner smaller ring. It would be such an easy fix. I have done it in CAD as a 3D-printed test model. It works, but I'm not a bearing manufacturer, so I can't machine them.
Just be aware they don't seal them 100%, so hot air can escape out of the non-sealed bearings. There's always going to be something, but again, for as little gap as those bearings leave, you're not getting any air escaping out of them, more hot air in their heads! I'm a mechanic and test all this and emtbr and 3D designer I can't stress enough how east a fix it would be but manufacturers just won't do it as they won't sell near as many bearings doing this but would definitely help the ebike motors! That 1 minute test on that bafang motor is absolutely pointless! You wouldn't expect water to seap in a non sealed unit at that time!
Not having moisture detection in motors is unforgivable, submersible pumps often have this and it could be integrated with some desiccant to provide limited protection….. the cost implications are minimal the sensors are typically less than £5 retail….. integration costs would be minimal.
motors need is to include moisture sensors…… if pressure is an issue then could include a bladder or bellows under a cover. Just on motor nr 5…. Never pressure washed and carried internally in vehicles when transported
Specialized 2.2. 4 under warranty and the latest one that I’m going to have to fund from an independent specialist instead of Specialized. The temperature change / suction scenario could be addressed by including something like a shimano reservoir bladder seal from a M775 lever.
Bearings need to be completely redesigned the inner and outter metal bodies need a rubber seal gasket seated in a machined groove on the surface whare it presses into the body whare its metal on metal contact only! Same with the inner bearing ring same channel need cut into it and a gasket fitted whare the BB crank is met as metal on metal again it will not have a 100% water tight seal it might mean the wall thickness of the Bearings might increase a mil or so and will change the sizes but I think it's definitely something to consider for future proofing our investments if brands would go this far but in all seriousness they are manufacturers only interested in profits same as cars etc and have a life span of 3 to 7 years then forced to buy from them again never ending circle of greed whare as it can be such an easy fix!
These test are ok from a component level perspective. But, it's missing the real practical test. When using an e motor there are forces applied on the cranck, the housing of the motor etc. That should be considered in a test setup. Also, as with all components, less is more. Motors should have fewer parts and easy to be maintained.
I rode through a deep puddle on my 3month old cube action team and imediately had shutdown issues for the rest of the ride. Cable sealing is garbage on Bosch Gen 4 Performance motors
What do you think of our findings today? Let us know in the comments!
Show miles and mph in your videos to not everyone uses km
My pal fell into a canal on his Mondraker Crafty R with the Bosch motor. He and the bike were totally submerged. His bike was fine, and was checked by a mechanic. Interesting his iPhone which was supposed to be able to be submerged was ruined.
My Bosch Gen 2 Powerline CX now has over 12,800km on the clock. I have just pulled it down and it was spotless. I checked all the bearings, clutch bearings and nylon gears all are perfect. I poped off the rubber seals and re packed with marine lithium gears and silicone, PTFE based greas on nylon gears. The bearing that had steel shields I've replaced with rubber seals and re packed the bearings. I thought by now the bearings may have been a little dry or had some play, but no.
So no bearings clutch bearings or gears have been replaced. just a couple of bearing shields. I did add a shaft seal to the crank drive side instead of crank shaft and did give the crank shaft a clean as there was a tiny bit of suface corrosion between the outer bearings and crank shaft.
Looking at the condition I'd say this motor will last 30-35,000km before anything will need replacing.
@embn I just think you let the bike companies get away with murder, you don't hold them account enough.
Breather tubes to a high point. Same technique used for 4wd differentials and gearboxes
The main issue here is the motors are new. It would be best to see a motor used for 1,000miles then go back for testing and see how it fails then.
1000 miles? , need to ride in the lake district , 200 miles will do it . does matter what brand either unfortunately
I've done 600 miles on my bike already and expect to clock more. I'd find this information extremely useful. @@mps6dave
breather hose running up the frame will solve the suction issue
Son dynamo built a pressurised silicone air bladder into their hubs to solve this very problem and now they give a 50,000 kilometre warranty on their bearings.
I would also suggest that there are up and down forces applied to the crank via the pedals. Not just rotary as in the Bafang test.
Yes, their tests aren't appling real world forces, agreed
Massive directional forces not just rotation
As a longtime bike mechanic, Nothing about bikes or ebikes is waterproof. NOTHING
Besides moisture Pedal strike puts a massive shock on the sprag bearings which also leads to failure. Seriously : We should all have one motor spare.All expensive top of the range models should come with a spare motor to justify the price and give purchasers peace of mind. E=Mtb²
@@robhaskins3068 that's easily stopped by not pedal striking 😂
@@davidmaskewSeriously! The dude wants companies to give him free motors.
@@Shawn-in-da-Canyon Yes they actually already do give free motors. I know people who have had 5 replacement motors under warranty. It is not uncommon for most brands to GIVE at least one within the warranty period so we are already paying up front within the price structure. E=Mtb²
@@robhaskins3068thats for those who actually put a lot of miles on it, for those who are only using it in the summer months they are getting extremely poor value for money when 5 year's in and there's no replacement availability.. then you have £2500 worth of ewaste. The EU needs to step in like it did with USBC and force Standardisation with motor mounting patterns and battery standards
currently a lot of the motors are a total write-off from water ingress. circuit boards get no extra protection and it seems to often be that which makes the whole thing landfill. Protect the circuit boards better (completely seal them away), and allow moisture to escape the rest of the motor via one-way valves/membranes. I don't think you can stop water getting in, but you can allow it to get out.
Seriously, what would it take... $1 of protective goo coating circuts.
good isea, pop a small sachet of that silica gel inside the casing...that will help dehumidify yhe inside
@@RicardoPetrazzi silica gel soaks up humidity, but only until the gel is saturated, then it no longer works unless you can dry it out.
@stuartbayliss9251 plus chem interactions. But seriously, we've been coating many phone pcb's for years, and there are conformal coatings and varnishes that are up to the task. If you're deicated enough to do a pcb smt repair these days, I can't see such a coating stopping you... however most any service repair is going to put in a fresh part anyway, if there is a physical failure.
All I can say is, I’m so thankful that I live in Southern California, where it’s always dry. I couldn’t deal with that constant mud and constant bike cleaning.
I feel ya. Not in CA but in Qld Australia. We get an average of 3-5 rainy days over winter and 9-10 during summer. Even then it's not normally set in and the trails are never complete sludge.
It would drive me crazy.
Ha. It really does suck. I want your weather .
The issue not mentioned here is that sealing a rotating shaft comes with a compromise and that is DRAG! The better you seal it, the higher the drag. And people really don't like drag on their cranks and drivetrains........
My brand new levo sl mode selector switch packed up after owning it for 4 weeks, and 4 months into owning it, my motor just failed. Wasn't ever exposed to any ridiculous conditions.. all I am thankful for is the warranty
you got burned mate, getting a LEVO is not smart imo. They spent their money on advertisements, not on good bikes. My 2 cents. I own a Cube brand downhill emtb.
@@2011buddylee ik heb een Turbo Levo Gen1 van 2017 met ruim 16.500km. In 2022 flink onderhoud gedaan, nieuwe seals, lagers etc, maar nog nooit problemen gehad! Ik rij het hele jaar door. Ben dan ook zeer tevreden😎
@@UNDERGROUNDHITRADIO my 21 Specialized Turbo Vado SL has been thru water in plenty of my videos and is still running great 😊
I think the pressurized motor submersion test shown at the bafang factory simulates the same situation as Ray's demonstration. It creates an environment where there is higher ambient pressure outside the motor than inside the motor while water is present all around the seals.
I agree with other commenters who have stated that forces on the crank shafts, or other mechanical forces applied to the motor while exposed to water are the most likely culprits for how water ingress can happen in real-world use.
There is a simple solution for this problem, a valve and hose to reach in a dry area of the bike, so the bike motor can breathe .
I am on my 3rd Bosch motor in 4 years for my 2019 Cannondale Moterra. Bosch graciously covered the second motor that had bearing failures even though it was 2 weeks past a 2 year warranty. After 3 years on that motor it also had bearing issues after a single submersion. I sent it to have the bearings replaced in the US by Performance Line Bearings. 2 months later the motor shutdown at the start of a ride and would not restart. It remained at a shop for 2 months to diagnose the issue. A new motor did not fix the issue and then it was discovered that it also needed a new head unit which seemed to have also stopped working. Finally it worked again! So after $500 in new bearings I spent another $1000 to get a new motor. I hope to get at least 2 years out of this motor before any further issues.
Although Bosch is rated high for reliability, I think the gen 2 motor, and other manufacturers, could do a much better job of sealing their bearings. The gen 2 version 3 motor only had a oil felt washer on the right side and nothing on the left side to protect the main bearings. Performance Line sells a good seal to add to the right side. A circlip prevents adding a similar seal to the left side so that is still very exposed. I do not see why it is so difficult to design a motor with better sealed bearings, in my view.
Thanks Steve! They are doing sampling in the Bafang test lab. Not all motors are tested but certain number of motors per batch. The Bafang looks great in testing & design for sure! No way that I can submerge my CX motor by Bosch :-) Shame on you Bosch....I'm just saying. Steve, how about if would you make a list of motors by manufacturer, where the IP rating is listed. You could go over the topic in some discussion video and make the issue more visible. This is still one thing that is not taken seriously enough by some manufacturers. Some manufacturers are not listing the IP rating, because they will fail for sure :-)
The 1 minute limit needs to be atleast a 5min test for anything to make its way in 1 minute test is just a dust and splash proof
Love this channel. So much interesting tech
I'm actually proud to have a BaFang motor in my bike.....they are a lot bigger company than I realized....They don't leave one stone unturned to build the best Battery Powered drive unit on the market...
Bafang has shown that they are aware of this even in this video. The test in the pressure tank is exactly that. Cooling down the motor quickly would result in a vacuum inside it, which is physically speaking exactly the same as increasing the outside pressure.
Rays calculation shows more of what would would happen with an incompressible medium such as water inside the motor, air on the other hand can compress under high pressure very well or expand under low pressure. I am not saying he's wrong, but the amount of water sucked inside would be far less ( depending on the quality of the seals) than the calculation would suggest because it is missing the seals as factor.
This might be another reason why ZF has chosen to move some electronics out from the motor. When I remember correctly the battery electronics are placed in the upper part of the battery compartment, maybe they're onto someting with this idea.
@@haemmertime if rapid cooling creating suction is a problem then why don't the just fit a breather pipe to a safe location, seams a pretty simple fix to me.
@@superchickensoup true, this might be a solution, it comes with downsides though. Mainly it would increase the air volume the motor, by that when the air cools down it would cause a greater suction into the motor. When the inlet would be in the water at the same time (maybe a in an accident/crash) as the motor gets cooled down it might result in more water getting pulled in.
There are pressure equalising tanks in hydrolics to absorb peaks, I would consider this a better solution, because they can be integrated in a sealed system and don't require any electronics. These however would add weight to the motor.
But that's enough armchair science from me, have a beautiful day
So, based on the latest information presented, a simple vented hose set up would be the answer to the rapid cooling suction issue. If my motor ever fails, I will modify the replacement as described. 😊
Absolutely agree. Off-road vehicles all use a breather vented to 1bar world.
Yes like $x$ diffs we could have a vent up inside the battery towards the head tube to vent the motor and put a Gortex breather on it.
I fully understand that someone enjoying riding in rain and mud... but this is something what I really dont want to do :-) I try to avoid water as possible. @embn you mentioned at the end that some motor are more reliable than other... please be more specific. Which motor are most reliable?
Not Bosch.... Maybe I was unlucky. But I had to have new motor put in my 2018 Trek Powerfly5 in 2022. Oh by the way, do not take it to the Bike Barn in Phoenix AZ. Epic Fail...!! Do I sound bitter....lol? It took over a month!
They won't give you that answer. They receive gifts from all brands :)
Specialized bike here , 3 years old , 3rd TCU, 2nd motor , 2nd battery to motor harness cable , all water ingress, ridden probably once a month .Here in the UK imho , not fit for purpose .next eebs will be pinion bike anyway. ebbs Costs a fortune in drivetrain components too.!eats em for breakfast!
I hear you, the sooner an mgu and belt drive, the better!
Has the Pinion MGU been out long enough to determine its durability and longevity?
@@Scomelbasses the gearbox has been around a while, not so the motor?! 🤷🏻♂️
@@danielsimmonds5162 yes, I’m aware the gearbox has been around for awhile, I used to own a bike with one. But the MGU hasn’t been out long enough to say that it will be any more durable than any other motor out there. The gearbox itself is simple, no electric components to worry about. The MGU will have all the same potential problems as all the other motors.
@@Scomelbassesaye it will . Gonna wait a couple years , see how the land lies . Back on normal bikes at the mo : luvin it
I’ve done a few sessions in the snow over winter here in Colorado. So far so good it’s a blast riding in the snow.
Does it affect the range on your bike much?
@@embn most definitely. I do ride a lot in winter here in Colorado. 15 miles or so on a ride. On my 2022 husky with the ep8 in snow roughly 6 inches to 1 foot uses up all my battery yeah. But it was Soooooo fn fun. My new Rocky Mountain instinct just showed up on Wednesday 7/24/24. Heading out later to 10,000 ft to beat the heat. Happy Trails embn
Ray Rocks. Such a knowledgeable man.
He's great!
4x4ers know the water from sucking in water when hot plunged, hence diff geabox etc have breather tubes to higher up in the vehicle (often upto the snorkel.
One answer would be to make them easy to service with widely available, reasonably priced, spares. Who cares if you have to change bearings every year if you can do it 8n an hour for about £20. Same goes for electronics, components/boards are cheap as chips, just make them easy to swap and cheap to buy.
Was looking at Bosch CX gen4 and I'm surprised the replacement cost is under $600 all in from reputable Bike shops on ebay. Says they are fully programmed. If that's plug and play by me there's no sense in getting a shop to repair an old motor.
@@DSC800my cube reaction was onto its 3rd motor (original plus 2 replacements) by the end of its 2year warranty. .
There's no excuse why any of these motors can't withstand IPX5 water ingress standards. They are designed to be used in mountain bikes, and mountain bikes are going to get wet. My Shimano E8000 has been transported on the back of my SUV for 4 years and has done over 5,000 mi, I just cracked it open to regrease it and it was dry as a bone inside. If these things are properly sealed, they should never have water ingress.
@@XennialGuy that's absolutely true. But there are even ways to prevent moisture sucking into the motor, even when a sealing isn't working properly. They could do it by a membrane.
The sphincter is the perfect seal as it will retain liquid and let air out but age does weary it as over 70 you can't really trust it.😂
Excellent demo of how wet air gets sucked in. I really only ride in dry weather and avoid the wet days. My motors haven't failed in 5 years (3 eMTBs). I live in Australia where we have longer dry periods, but there's plenty of wet days too in winter.
Son dynamo hubs had this problem in the early products and solved it with a pressure compensating device.
Riding in the rain is not the issue. If a hot motor is cooled quickly, especially if immersed in water, it will likely ingest some moisture with the inevitable consequences.
More videos like this please. Would be great to know which motors are more susceptible to moister/water ingress. A big'ol survey from riders regarding reliability / warranty process, would be incredibly useful and help consumers make informed decisions.
Hmmm… would be an interesting test to put a nonconductive oil in a current ”dry” motorhousing. PC builders have been immersing computers with fans and all for years.
Great video, keep them coming. Need a look around Bosch motor company
I had 4 warranty motors on my Bosh. On my new bike they have limited the warranty to two years from point of sale and no more perpetual warranty
There is also the “right to repair” issue if the mother board fails no way to fix or buy a new one has to be a new motor full stop
@@Calvin_Wright EU needs to step inon this and batteries. Ebikes are becoming an ecological disaster and Bosch is the worst offender
1:26 motor failure is sometimes caused by failed design, looking at you brose
Indeed. After just two years, never submerged, but in a humid climate, my gen2 report was:
"Your motor was in pretty rough shape. The main issues we found are badly pitted crank shaft, broken sprags, worn belt, lots of corrosion and dirt ingress. Also your planetary gears are broken".
I had it checked by an authorized Specialized dealer just within 4 years, but they didn't definitively determine the motor was failing. So no warranty from the warranty weasels at Specialized
@@jpravetzremarkable mine was checked by Specialized last sept….. warranty ran out November…..this March total failure same diagnosis!
@@robertpatrick3350 There shouldn't be a single review that doesn't talk about total cost of ownership of the motor-related components (we are already familiar with wear and tear of other components). Instead most just talk about the performance of the glossy and new. Case in point: I see a @FlowMountainBikeTH-cam review of the new Bosch SX, "the motor you've been waiting for", without any discussion of serviceability, reliability, water ingress rating, etc.. Without that info, it is definitely not the motor I've been waiting for.
👍Crankcase/engine ventilation with venting high up in the frame should solve this negative pressure/vacuum problem that exists.
Even a temperature hike around 0°C, is also a problem that can fill an engine and other closed vessels with water🤔
I've got a Bafang motor and they are defiantly not waterproof, mine lasted just over 2 years before it gave up , All weather riding, sun, rain and snow but never submerged under water. The biggest culprit is rain water mixed with road grit.
My Bosch motor has been underwater numerous times and never missed a beat.
@@Extremegaz25 give it a winter and see what it is like then 🙈
Proper workhorse, hopefully it carries on running perfectly fine! 🤘
I so much hope you're right!!! I'm ride my E-Fully with the Bosch CX nearly every day in the riparian forests near my home. It's quite moist and muddy on these trails. Really hope the CX holds up for some time.
Until bearings are redesigned my emtb won't see water if can help it! But certainly the blue head gasket sealer will help on your outer metal skin of the bearings and a tad on smaller crank one my mate even has thread lock on his and work's so its not hard for them so cut a channel to seat an O Ring!
Yeap, shimano ep8 is can go trough rivers water bottle high with no problem
Seems like the answer is a vent tube that runs up the seat tube into a flexible air bladder of say 30 or 40 cc. Motor cools and sucks in air from the bladder, motor warms up and pushes the air back into the bladder.
great idea. also, fill the motor with dry nitrogen when manufactured.
Have you patented a design yet?
@@Kev2Bee haha no but Im thinking of adapting a spare motor I have as a test.
Had 3 e-bikes in the last 4 years. Each bike has needed a new motor at varying ranges but probably about 5000km in total. 2 have been done on warranty one done at half price as a good will gesture.
Just my input, I don't own an EMTB and am put off doing so ue to experiences I hear but I've worked in the automotive repair industry as a mechanic for 30 years and water ingress in mechanic components is not a massive problem.when you consider the amount of exposed shafts on engines, gearboxes, axles and steering racks etc, all with fairly conventional seals and they do not fill up with water and are certainly exposed to a lot more, they do however have oil in and are generally vented at a high point to allow for expansion of pressure within due to heat build up. I do think some cues could be taken from the automotive industry to seal and protect these basic light duty motors by comparison. Like I say, it's just my opinion.
Perfectly sealing a motor will always be hard because you need a moving shaft or similar to go from the inside to the outside to transfer the torque. A perfect seal would only be possible with a magnetic coupling - but that is inefficient and poorly suited to a vehicle engine because it will easily slip under high torque. It's also very heavy, and costly.
There are some less compressible gases that could be used to fill the motor interior so this effect was reduced, but there are no gases that don't compress at all, so it's far from a perfect solution.
Filling the engine with oil just like we have done for decades with gearboxes is probably the best solution. I don't know if this would cause any issues for an electric motor though. I don't think it's incompatible. It's probably not done mainly due to keep costs low I imagine.
Having had bearing replaced in our bosch motors, & being a mechanic. Should the motors not have a breather tube up into the frame, to allow air transfer without sucking it past the seals ? Love your channel 👨🔧
Ray's experiment works well in an open eviroment and when the air pressures can equalize. When introducing correct sealing, the capillary effect susides dramatically. Don't forget water molecules are larger than Air molecules.
Would a tiny breather hose running inside the frame help. Would almost ensure dry air pulled into the motor due to least resistance. Maybe seal replacement and regular greasing intervals should be undertaken. Im no expert, just a thought.
Can the motors have a breather pipe fitted up into the top of the frame with a one way valve to release temperatures of the motor? Maybe the one way valve would have to become a checked/serviceable item but would aid the motor from water ingress?
That could aid the issue that Ray explained but will probably cause more issues than it fixes 🤷♂️
I have a Lappierre with a Yamaha Pw motor and just fitted a new set of crank bearings due to noisy when peddling. Somewhat disappointed with the poor weatherproof crank bearings. It is 5 years old and would hope new motors are now better protected. Main bearing kit was £52 and it took me about 2.5 hours to change. Quite simple really. However, with improved seals these bearings would have lasted far longer.
Again, so happy to see another video using the footage from the BAFANG visit. Keep it coming… can’t wait to see some reviews on some motors…. Particularly the m560 and m600, just sayin
This is the same issue on the input seal on a vehicles steering box mostly rack and pinion these days. You have oil heated in the gear by hydraulic friction. You then drive through a puddle on the road and a wheel splashes water onto the pinion top of the valve housing. This cools the valve housing which shrinks in length slightly and cools the oil in the valve housing which sucks in some residue water past the seal lip. In sub zero zones around the world parking overnight results in more cooling of the steering gear and oil. This is why most input seals on Rack and Pinion steering gears are double lipped to stop ingress (outer seal lip and leakage out from the inner seal lip. This requires a high temperature grease between the lips to stop excess seal lip wear.
The motor is sealed so when it gets hot the inside gets pressurised. When it cools, the pressure returns to normal, no sucking involved. Also water is more dense than air so it won't necessarily pass through the same hole. Nice demo but not sure it's "real world". Worn seals are a more likely culprit.
Does this mean ZF motors are waterproof as they are filled with oil?
They certainly won’t be sucking in moisture as per Rays experiment but I’m not sure what the actual waterproofing the seals get from things like water jets etc
What is needed is an expansion chamber with an rubber diaphragm which will allow expansion and contraction as mentioned it would only need to be very small perhaps 5cc’s
Car differential have breather. For this reason. A tube that sits higer an safe from water. So when the diff cols down it will suck air from the breather and not the seals
I have found the Bosch CX on my Trek Rail to be rather fragile. I’m on my 3rd motor, motors 1 and 2 both failed due to water damage. Can’t fault Bosch on there warranty though. Last one was turned sorted within 4 days.
My bbs02 was plowing through 2 to 3 feet of water last week no problem.
Liquid cooled, packed full on marine greas, then water prof the electronic would be a interesting development for e bike motors
Does Bosch achieve this level of testing? I think not. Due to the fact I am on my 5th Gen 2 DU...
I'll let you know about Yamaha eventually
Recently purchased a nice Canyon e-bike and love it. But I will not be riding it in wet conditions. I wash it with gentle streams of water and water gets in the down tube where the battery is causing the battery and associated wiring to get wet.
SOOOOOOOOO SMARTTTTTT! i know that for sure, when you have a slightly warm drink half full in a bottle with the lid screwed tight, put it in the fridge or even take it outside in the cold and the bottle air volume will shrink!
My thought change oil after hard run if possible and in dry conditions.
Breather pipe drawing air from an area within the frame high up to help balance the air pressure - simple
Yes. also add a flexible air bladder to the end of the vent tube too so that any air sucked into the motor is always bone dry.
I've had ebike specialized Kenovo expert for 4 years and water has never been a problem and I am on my 6th motor it's always belt or sprag clutch failure and I ride all year round and pressure wash the bike down mainly in the winter but know where to on the bike and where not to. The batteries are very good, broke one frame and one set of wheels one swingarm but all was replaced by specialized who are very good. The wiring was replaced one on the motor but that was a warranty update and has been all good. If the belt and sprag was fixed I think these motors would fantastic. The belt has been updated not sure on the clutch but on average I get 3500 miles on each motor of hard use. The 4year warranty to orginal owners was a welcome thing that Specialized brough in and I can't fault them.
Congratulations for bringing science into the game. Just like the suggestion of filling motors with oil: when you bring science into a discussion you leave no place for opinion and misinformation that abound in the internet.
Ah-haa. Just like a hot diff on a 4wd hitting a water crossing. Totally makes sense.
Had my ebike less than 2 years and the frame has cracked 3 times. Got a new frame and the rear brake mount cracked and the brake fell out, then the frame cracked at the same place my first bike cracked. Total of 4 rides on the new frame and nothing aggressive. Motor seems to have done fine so far and I'm dying to ride it through a ford but I'm to scared . It will be fully submerged for at least 10 seconds.
Simple cure is to add a breather hose that sits up in the frame that won’t dray in moisture , you see this everywhere in the automotive industry to cure this issue , and an oil filled motor would suffer from the same thing , so that’s not a solution
I am on my 3rd Bosch CX motor! The last one failed in hard rain on the Climachx trail near DYFI bike park. Granted it rained hard and after 5 minutes we rode through all puddles but have NOT submerged the motors! Both motors (my friends was a shimano motor) failed within 30 seconds of each other just as we finished riding. Not impressed with Bosch. If the motors are so sensitive to water ingress then don’t sell them for MTBs.
How much weight do you think ZF adds to their motor by filling it with oil?
Problem: Temperature differential creating moisture vacuum.
Solution: 2 (two) 4mm drilled and taped holes in the motor case. One upper, one lower. Vent hoses and one-way check valve.
Bonus Solution: Mechanical venting system in addition to the above. Pedal driven. Basically, it's a positive crank case vent.
Water ingress, a non-issue. But corrosion will be. Oil filled or bathed is the only way. But still will need vented.
So, I would like to take better care of my second motor. What do we need to do to save it from water...? where to find a Ebike repair manual...?
By that theory when they warm up again the heat will produce pressure inside which could force liquid back out if there was a one way valve placed correctly on a water collection point maybe.
Water tends to stick to surfaces. Also some water will evaporate inside a warm motor and condensate when it gets cold again. If you pour water out of a bottle and then seal the bottle again, it will contain enough water to stain some metal inside. So, without good ventilation of a motor interior this will not work.
Just done 1100km shimano ep8 spins internally but no assistance to chain ring . Shimano are replacing it under warranty . I live in Australia southern Victoria so not hot Australia ! Never submerged the motor in water never used high pressure cleaning . I wash my bike about 30-60 mins after a ride rinse it over with a hose after bike standing up right never upside down . And I’m pretty sure it’s water ingress is the reason for failure that is not good enough.
Ps bike is YT decoy just over a year old
yes the motor should have oil in them and a full maintenances kit with seals and bearings that you can install on say a yearly basis. I mean you do that with head sets and other things on the bike. As far as blaming it on pressure washers the manufactures aren't being completely honest yes you shouldn't use them but, it happens to bike that have never seen pressure washers. Every decent manufacture should have a full service kit and bike shops should offer the install service and also sell the kit. It's a win win they make money your motor is kept up. The other way customers are unhappy and may not want to buy from you again. Also people are still going to buy new motor for various reasons.
They never build them with an IP rating required , basically non are fit for purpose and that’s excluding transport or cleaning as you try to elude to.
I wish someone told the eCycling industry that there are these things called EV's and imagine this, they also use motors AND GET THIS their motors are exposed to way worse conditions and are sealed properly. WOOOOOOAAAAAAAH🤯, right?
I'm about to buy an Orbea Rise LT M10 which costs almost 8000 euros, but there's one thing I don't know and I'd like to. How much does a Shimano engine like the one on the bike costs, if I need or want to buy one separately? And a 630WH battery?
Experiment only shows condensation effect what is pretty much expected
That repeated dunk test in dirty water is quite impressive. Maybe motor manufacturers could "fill" their motor with dry nitrogen gas before sealing up. Nitrogen is used in race tires because it expands less than moisture laden "air". Anyway, just thinking out loud.
Just did shimano E8000 bearing replacment after 15k of commuting and was really suprised that There was 0% water ingress. After countless hours of jet washing and few times submerged in a flooded Thamse river foot path it does make me wonder how in the world the mottor is not dead???
Just another notch in the belt for the new ZF company since their oil bath not to mention there's some behind the scenes leaks. No pun intended that the ZF motor runs closer to 120 newton meter
Are Bafang now funding the channel? Are their motors actually used by any of the big bike manufacturers?
I only see them in "China bikes" to be honest... Most renowned brands use Bosch CX, Shimano EP8, Yamaha PW-X or Brose for their E-MTBs.
I do waterproof IPX7 certified motors. It's costly and only high level competitors book this modification. It takes days for high temp silicone and red insulating varnish from mg chemicals to cure. Depending on motor size and riders budget it starts from 250€ up to 600€ ebikes only.
Mechanic engineer forgot to mention condensation...
I think the motors aren't robust enough, forget about water, they're just not reliable. I'm on my 4th motor on my turbo levo and everything but the battery has been replaced but it still let's me down, I can't plan anything or go anywhere as I know theses a good chance it'll let me down.
You need to look into if these motors are fit for purpose.
It’s a feature on specialized e-bikes isn’t it? 😂
@@paulpetch helpful thank you.
Traxxas can make RC cars and motors waterproof and they are 100% waterproof, I know this from my kids driving theirs into a lake and laughing their heads off. The car is 11 years old now and still runs fine.
I just put one party balloon on the controller and one the charging port cover , cut to size and i applied a neoprene cover to the whole belly .
Quality content
I wonder how these new belt drive motors will handle water.
Bafang = Bulletproof! 😊
I would have thought condensation would be more likely when you have a hot motor suddenly being cooled
Any reason why they don't add a 1 way valve to release the heat?
It could be that at 1 way valve might be another point for failure? It would be interesting to see if what Ray explained is considered when companies develop motors!
It is simply a fact of life that ALL seals have a lifespan. And that they will wear down. Dirt plus water is an abrasive mixture that will destroy every seal sooner or later. And yes, this means maintenance. And depending on your habits this can be in longer or shorter intervals. A pressure washers forces the abrasive water-dirt mix into the seals which is simply a death sentence. Maintenance can capture this while only the seal is damaged instead of the whole motor.
These eBike motors are incredibly rug sized and survive an incredible amount of abuse but you simply have to understand that is ability to withstand the elements will end sooner or later. Even standard bottom brackets break down eventually and mid drive motor units contain these on top of the electronics.
Would gorilla tape all around the motor seal to prevent suction from direct outside air and put a few desiccant silica pouches inside the small void space in the motor to capture any water mist. Could that help just enough to mitigate any sucking in of water vapours? I think I would not mind some ugly water proof tape around the motor housing if it helps protect the motor. I guess can’t do much about the crank area and bearings. Just add more grease there. Once a month or two you have to open the motor and dry it out and replace the desiccant silica pads so they can absorb the water. Why not weight them to track how much water they absorb. Would make an interesting test for embn to see how much of the water even minuscule amount gets in the motor after so many typical rides. It don’t have to be raining for the motor to suck in humid air which the uk is famous for. I have had 3 motors break. One from watery grease on the inner motor gear and two from galvanised screws that’s where they use steel screw on aluminium engine case and they fuse together so you strip the screw head as it’s so stuck so you can’t take the motor out. I suspect that water speeds up the galvanising process. Now I use copppa slip grease on my screws to prevent that.
Blue head gasket sealer from AutoSave or Halfords around the bearings, as it's metal on metal, but the bearings need to be completely redesigned with gasket channels cut in like grooves and an O-ring seated and a cork one maybe on the inner smaller ring. It would be such an easy fix. I have done it in CAD as a 3D-printed test model. It works, but I'm not a bearing manufacturer, so I can't machine them.
Just be aware they don't seal them 100%, so hot air can escape out of the non-sealed bearings. There's always going to be something, but again, for as little gap as those bearings leave, you're not getting any air escaping out of them, more hot air in their heads! I'm a mechanic and test all this and emtbr and 3D designer I can't stress enough how east a fix it would be but manufacturers just won't do it as they won't sell near as many bearings doing this but would definitely help the ebike motors! That 1 minute test on that bafang motor is absolutely pointless! You wouldn't expect water to seap in a non sealed unit at that time!
'waterproof until broken' as usual.
Not having moisture detection in motors is unforgivable, submersible pumps often have this and it could be integrated with some desiccant to provide limited protection….. the cost implications are minimal the sensors are typically less than £5 retail….. integration costs would be minimal.
motors need is to include moisture sensors…… if pressure is an issue then could include a bladder or bellows under a cover. Just on motor nr 5…. Never pressure washed and carried internally in vehicles when transported
Sorry to hear you've gone through so many motors, what brand is it just out of interest?
Specialized 2.2. 4 under warranty and the latest one that I’m going to have to fund from an independent specialist instead of Specialized. The temperature change / suction scenario could be addressed by including something like a shimano reservoir bladder seal from a M775 lever.
Bearings need to be completely redesigned the inner and outter metal bodies need a rubber seal gasket seated in a machined groove on the surface whare it presses into the body whare its metal on metal contact only! Same with the inner bearing ring same channel need cut into it and a gasket fitted whare the BB crank is met as metal on metal again it will not have a 100% water tight seal it might mean the wall thickness of the Bearings might increase a mil or so and will change the sizes but I think it's definitely something to consider for future proofing our investments if brands would go this far but in all seriousness they are manufacturers only interested in profits same as cars etc and have a life span of 3 to 7 years then forced to buy from them again never ending circle of greed whare as it can be such an easy fix!
I would like to see more of Ray Cook on the show.
He was brilliant!
These test are ok from a component level perspective. But, it's missing the real practical test. When using an e motor there are forces applied on the cranck, the housing of the motor etc. That should be considered in a test setup. Also, as with all components, less is more. Motors should have fewer parts and easy to be maintained.
I rode through a deep puddle on my 3month old cube action team and imediately had shutdown issues for the rest of the ride. Cable sealing is garbage on Bosch Gen 4 Performance motors
Motors might need venting
If you put holes into it for air ventilation then it won't be submergible for going under any water.
@@mikehunt1528 dirt bikes have venting everywhere. Routing vent tubes high up in the frame with a check valve does the trick.
Bafang! 💪