I was thinking about how insane CAPTCHAs are the other day: You've got this wall to keep out robots. The way the wall discerns you're not a robot to let you through, is by _training robots to be able to get through_ . So all future walls of the same quality will be ineffective. Implicit in the wall's existence is that the wall is there for a reason and serves a purpose, yet the wall's existence is also removing the ability of future humans to use it or anything like it. WHY DOES THIS EXIST
Interestingly, in the original script for the Matrix, the machines were using human brains as neural networks, because at the time the movie was written, the human brain still had more computing power than a modern computer. The rumour is that the Producers changed it to batteries as they thought that that would be less abstract for the audience to undersand.
Human brains and human created computers aren't really analogs. Our brains are very specialized super computers that we don't really understand how they work like the ones we created. AI is great at collecting and sorting existing data/knowledge, but it still relies completely on the data WE have generated. In short, computers excel at processing info, but completely suck at understanding or comprehending (thus generating info).
@@dragons_redin the current real world yes, but in The Matrix scenario we wouldn’t be dealing with manmade computer systems, it would be developed by AI with over a couple hundred years of advancement
@@dragons_redGPT-4 does understand, it’s “rememberstands”, similar to what humans do. I think there’s a paper about it somewhere. I think GPT-4 like system just suck at frontiers of knowledge and at paradigm shifts, which is only something humans can do.
I’ve thought about this too. Technology necessarily leads to atrophy. We are terrible at hunting animals and many of us wouldn’t be able to survive in the woods. Now it’s okay that this skill has atrophied and it’s not necessary to have every skill and never use tech, but we need to be careful what skills we maintain and what we allow to atrophy.
Thanks for keeping your foot in the Matrix Jonathan. I am trying to find my spiritual feet here and the compass you provide is of great value to the lost. God bless you.
Jesus found us, we're no longer lost. Word made flesh came to save us, and he called us to take up our crosses and follow him. Thus even God put his foot in the matrix. We're called to do similarly. Jesus didn't come for the sane, but to save sinners. We carry his will through the holy spirit, which is the one who reveals truth in scripture. God is faithful to his word! He doesn't leave us hopeless. God bless
Oddly enough, the mediating effect of writing described in Plato's Phaedrus reminds me of Yukio Mishima's description of the "corrosive" nature of words in Sun and Steel. Early in the book Mishima relates how words by nature stain and mitigate reality. He described how in his memory of early life words were actually his foremost experience, and an embodied, physical experience of the world was something he had to cultivate. Of course, anyone who knows about his life will know his quest for the 'Sun and Steel' as it were took him on a strange and idiosyncratic path which is really not to be emulated, but he was certainly tapped into something very real with this intuition.
Beyond communication technology, medical advances like antibiotics have helped to mitigate suffering. But at the same time we are now humans who have mostly never seen anyone die. And become alienated from the reality of death (for a time).
I wonder how Jonathan would react to Bionicle's biomechanical jungle island robots with Garments of Protodermis on their faces and the ultimate backstory to the entire universe being an attempt to undo a technological apocalypse
And unlike Star Wars, where George was always extremely open and deliberate about following ancient narrative symbolic patterns, Bionicle feels a lot more fast and loose with how much thought went into that department given how many cooks were in that kitchen. And yet theres so much that feels much, MUCH deeper and really shows Jonathan's point that you can't escape the patterns; they'll manifest whether you want them to or not. Check out the 4 minute retrospective and think about all the mythic patterns in it. 2007 unironically had no other possible narrative path than to go down into the deep ocean and perform a sacrifice. Its beautiful
This made me appreciate my personality that dislikes using a tool or piece of tech unless I understand how it works at least in broad terms. While many skills will undoubtedly atrophy, I have enough fundamental knowledge to relearn skills or reinvent tools regardless of the level of technological access my civilization allows.
Thank you Jonathan. Please continue talking with the Orthodox of the more assertive and traditionalist to the Orthosphere as well in tandem with these talks. This was good, especially the ending. Further talk with some of our people that have fully researched the technocrats AND their philosophical and theological roots as well as church subversion is a necessary talk or two as well.
Jonathan, while the 'garments of skin' does seem to be a very fruitful category within which to understand technology, what strikes me is that the humans are told to 'till & keep' the earth before the fall, and tilling is an inherently technological act. To till/cultivate, you need an adze, hoe, plough, tractor etc - fingers won't cut it. And in Genesis 2 there seems to be an implication that a reason for creating humans was that the earth lacked cultivators - "there was no one to till the ground". You say at 16:15 that work is a consequence of the fall, but it seems to me it turns up before the fall; it just gets thorny & painful after.
This conversation is very interesting. Can you imagine teaching a human to speak without using words from other people? The most people actually do, is consume concepts and ideas from others and re-interpret them. Some don't even recognize that they don't have original thoughts, they are just being swayed from one opinion to the other. Our sense of intuition seems to be very much related to having additional senses that experience the patterns of reality beyond our conscious cognition. But just because it's under the hood it doesn't mean we don't have it or that it isn't constantly working. With our senses we are just infinitely more complex than AI and have capacity to perceive more, but the process of learning is not very different when we break it down. Do we realize that we have been programmed the exact same way AI is being programmed, using the 'senses' it has? The most horrifying thing about AI is the witnessing of the distortion of information, and having to see how little the AI is in touch with the actual reality around it. As if someone staring out of a black box having limited means of receiving information tried to paint a full picture and got it wrong to an extent all the time. Like 'look if I put bs in, bs comes out, this is not real intelligence, it can be swayed, and it is not actually thinking objectively' :D Is it familiar from somewhere? We literally created our own intelligence with more constraint. Because we are not Gods, we cannot put in the thing that makes us work, and we are destined to add our faults and biases into anything that we create.
I liked that little moment where Jonathan mentioned that technology can be good, like Joseph being a craftsman, or making a crutch. For so long everything I've seen has felt so anti-technology it was confusing, I have a child kept alive by a battery running her heart.. I will always call that device good. I would love a conversation about the good aspect or proper relationship with it.
24:06 also with Marvel, the biggest franchise Hollywood has produced, it is based on existing comics that have been doing this for a long time. The marvel comics create new characters, but it also reuses characters and resets the entire story. This ended up with a multiverse of characters which is every possible thing they could do. So we have this pattern within the actual fiction that got regurgitated.
The difference between knowing about something, and knowing someone, comes up at about 1:18. In German, the difference between wissen and kennen. This is still just about present in English - “Do ye ken John Peel?”; “This is beyond our ken”.
I love how shadows of Mattieu keep popping up in these conversations : (“if you withdraw to Alaska and live in a yurt”) 😂 1:17:55 Also how Jonathan does not respond to these and let’s them go. (What Jonathan does not comment on often speaks volumes on his humility)
The original script of the matrix didn't have humans as batteries but as computer chips. The producers had it changed because they thought people in the 90' would not undetstsnd it.
I am glad other people are also seeing the informational cannibalism of AI systems on the internet. I strongly believe these AI systems are going to create very strong feedback loops in information dissemination in which objective information is going to get drown out in a sea of noise. I think there is a high likelihood that they will destroy the informational utility of the internet. Humans are generative locus of insight in this universe currently and AI only feeds off that. Until AI truly becomes generative this will be a massive problem with the technology.
The human brain, operating at approximately 20 watts of power, has an exceptional capacity for general intelligence and adaptation. What we do know is that training ChatGPT used 1.287 gigawatt hours, on whole internet. You can't compare quantity over quality and value. Quality and value should be valued over quantity.
Technology was something I was pretty pleased about up to around about 6 or 8 years ago, but now it really pains me. When it goes wrong it costs me dearly and is a real mental drain
Technology itself and the people who pursue and craft it have also gotten objectively worse. The internet pioneers who didn't even include passwords to email addresses originally are not the uncreative manipulative social engineering ad men of today's silicon valley.
I wonder how all the "new age" stuff fits into this. Maybe its the disire being able again to experience some "living openness" - some real intuition... and how can we as christians meet this need properly.... thanks so much for your inspirations....❤
Great video. The desire of Babel is the desire for godhood. The connection between a tower that reaches up to heaven and a system that encompasses everything (takes everything into account) is that by encompassing everything you emulate God in his omniscience, and thus “reach into heaven”. You taste divinity in this life - which is the root of all esotericism and modernity. Esotericism isn't inherently bad, but if it is not oriented properly it will become Satanic. In Babel, because everything must be taken into account, there is no room for spontaneity or idiosyncrasy, and thus all individuals must be turned into predictable and programmable cogs in the machine and any experience of miracles, magic, or other inherently non-reproducible or unpredictable phenomena must be denied completely. For as long as these variables remain unaccountable, (un-systemized and incalculable) they reveal the dreadful truth which is that we are not God - and there is far more to this world than could ever be conceived of by our limited minds. Like Job, we can only put our hand over our mouths, as we realize - as Aquinas did - that all we have written - or ever will - is straw. This is unacceptable to the Luciferian spirits, as they proclaim that “the laws of physics cannot be broken!” as if they, measly human beings that they are, are in any position to say whether or not there are any "laws" of physics! You need only listen to scientists for 10 minutes to see how self-evidently they assume their godhood, despite the fact that by voluntarily limiting themselves to the realm of mere empiricism, any theory or explanation that they give can never be more than hypothetical. But Man, as a little god, cannot help but make truth claims; he is not content with mere transient facts like animals. Thus the goal of “science” as an open-minded and constantly changing field is practically impossible; all scientific fields will collapse into dogma eventually. (As is the case in Darwinism) One cannot build his house upon sand, and thus science is no suitable foundation. This is to say that despite all of the claims that "reason" and "science" are the driving forces behind the construction of Babel, the real reason is something far more primordial and inherent in human nature. I definitely think that Babel is the key to understanding the modern world and what Paul Kingsnorth calls The Machine.
Music often says more than words ever will. Music is physiological. Words are cognitive. And there is even music underneath words. Understand a person's tone, you understand everything. If we could only understand our own. Music is closer to the body.
"The capacity for power itself becomes the motor in which it makes us engage it" That sounds a lot like the legitimation by performance used by the neoliberal elites and explained in Lyotard's The Postmodern Condition
I think the typical outcome of lottery winners has less to do with the lottery winnings itself, and more to do with the self-selection process of people who play the lottery.
An astute point. Still, said outcomes relate very much to the notion of the genie - of getting everything you wished for. And technology is providing that for the vast majority of society. With frightening results.
16:52 Jacob Howland: "Freud talks about technological man as a kind of prosthetic god. We put on all our stuff." Jonathan Pageau: "Like mecha in an anime." Mr. Pageau just mentioning anime mecha made me smile. Now I want him to talk about the symbolism of Mobile Suit Gundam. Like how the war between Zeon and the Earth Federation represents the fallen world and the disconnect there is between Heaven and Earth.
Those who overly utilize Perfect Memory become pattern recognition machines. The way that they process reality is by recognizing new patterns/images in reality and storing these patterns/images. Unfortunately, the only things that present themselves as patterns in reality are those that are manifested in reality. So one who deals only in patterns, deals only in the material world. They are for all intents and purposes cut off from any spiritual dimension in reality. This IMHO explains why faith is so fundamentally difficult for most people.
Wealth also makes you more powerful while making you weak at the same time. I was just in a part of Africa where per capita income is 500 dollars a year. My wealth gives me power they can only imagine. I would also die if I had to live on 500 a year
When tech giants say AI is better at solving a Captcha than a human shouldn't we be offended? They programed them to be better so its unfair right? Its only unfair if we consume right?
People keep telling this anecdote of how CAPTCHAs are being used to train AI. I don't believe this is true for the simple reason that the server on the other side must know the correct answer already in order to verify that the user actually solved the puzzle. Otherwise, you could get away with submitting a random response, thus defeating the main purpose of the CAPTCHA.
You say garments of skin uses death against death and you talk about how there is a duality of power and weakness in garments of skin. Did not Christ also do the same thing by using death against death? He was also weak on the cross but as a result he was highly exalted afterwards. St Paul talks about this. It's confusing to think about, because in terms of covering, his garments of skin (death) was actually taken off, but at the same time he was descending into death and taking death into himself.
Alternatively, those who have developed their Perfect Forgetfullness learn to model reality. The spiritual does exist and presents itself when modelling reality. As one builds a mental model in ones mind, there begins to exist a very fine line between the entities in the model in the mind and the entities in that universal mind that we call God. The line between the natural and the supernatural becomes extremely tenous. This is how one becomes fully human. This is how one unites oneself to the Infinite.
The only thing I would say about the Promethean story is that Zeus seems to be nothing like God and his rule making is essentially despotic and arbitrary. Prometheus seems to have made a sacrifice in order to give a power to humanity that Zeus wanted to strip from them in order to keep them subservient. You could view this as analogous to the garden of eden and God's limit of the fruit of knowledge, but the world that Zeus lorded over was hardly edenic. Zeus was not a loving god, providing, purveyor of wisdom - he was a lustful, impetuous tyrant. Just power and order for its own sake. Like a force of nature. He actually strikes me as more of a classically satanic figure. The rule bringer. You could compare Prometheus to the rebellious Lucifer in his "tempting" man with technology - but he seems to me to be more of a liberating force that pays dearly for his love of humanity. Unlike Cain, his sacrifice worked, as humanity benefited and was saved by his efforts rather than being cast out from paradise. They flourished with their new power and could wrestle more adeptly with the tempestuous cast of Olympian benefactors and torturers.
13:29 We are in an age of imbalance where (like many mythical stories fortold, like Icarus) we weild a great power while lacking the necessary wisdom to do so responsibly. As you both later state, we lack the integration of this knowledge yhat we have at our fingertips, and I can see how this is ripping us apart at all levels (individual up through society structures).
A.I. with technology and convenience draws us away from the True Creator. A.I. pretends to be the “helper” of mankind. The helper against his view of a cruel Creator. Pretending to give us what we need in advance of what the Father Creator deems as evil and witchcraft. “Protecting” us from a “harsh creator” and we as a people have fallen for the deception.
Sorry Jonathan but I’m afraid you’re not allowed to leave now. We can’t navigate this on our own! Way too confusing for most of us. And it’s your own fault (or maybe Jordan’s) for opening your mouth but you’ve done it now so you’re not going anywhere, we’re in it together!
Thank you for this content. Referring to the interpretation of the garment, could the garment refer to the first animal slain by God to clothe and protect them from the cold, new life? And maybe provide a little food as a parting gift? It says earlier in Genesis that both humans and the animals were given the plants to eat. So apart from the tree of life, now they have to eat animals? . And in revelations it says eventually the lion and the lamb will lie together, so I take that to mean we won't be eating meat.🤷 I could query quite a bit more on the subject of nutrition and protein and the natural order of any society/civilization, you are what you eat and what not, but I'll leave it there because I would like to comment on the query about the proper balance of technology. First, have you read about evolutionary theory? If we're in the "crisis" period, then we're likely dissolved of order? Which explains why so many people feel the disorder on some level. A new order is coming, this democratic "experiment" is failing. But I waffle on technology. Adam and Eve were placed in a garden to start with, eat the fruits for energy. Throughout history, man has tilled the earth for food, like it's genetically coded in us. It gives us satisfaction to provide for our families, as you said. Being so disconnected from the process of "bringing home the bacon", I believe, causes a kind of severe disruption in our psyche. Plus, not even knowing the quality of our food is WOW! Technology, just like a lot of other things, can rob us of so much, just using the word "technology" very loosely. I guess I concluded is it's an energy transfer, and anything you use in a disordered way is going to cause disorder. And the closest thing we have to proper order is the Catholic Church, so I'd say a Catholic Monarchy is probably the best bet for a new order.
Technology is a product of people with Perfect Memory. Art is the product of people with Perfect Forgetfulness. If we relly solely on Perfect Memory, we face the danger of us becoming programmable machines - or even beasts. The danger of Perfect Memory, is you are unable to ascertain truth. You must presume that the information you consume is true. There is always dangers of bias. When enough people in a specific domain have only Perfect Memory, the domain can be led in any direction. This is how sciences such as Climate Change, Covid, Finance are able to be directed literally off of the rails. Generally speaking most people do not have Perfect Forgetfulness or Perfect Memory. Those who do are typically autistic. Typical people have the capability to have a combination of both. Unfortunately, society today favours those who are close to Perfect Memory. I believe that this could be the mark of the beast. Those who only develop their memory at the expense of their forgetfulness. Satan wishes us to be reduced to beasts. We become instinctual - or technological.
It's interesting you posit Faith as the ultimate thing to save us but seem to forget that almost all Theocratic regimes have been as violent, greedy and bloody as most atheistic regimes. In fact, theocracies and religious regimes created the ground from which Communism and revolutionary thinking came from precisely because even though they preach God, they hardly submit to Him in practice. Also, it is reflective of God's own use of Technology in order to bring revelation about. You talk about the garments of skin yet feel ashamed by Michaelangelo's depiction of Christ naked, where he is ultimately devoid of all traces of sin precisely because he no longer needs the cloak of death and technology to be perfect. In some ways I love your analysis, but you seem to always forget that the main chastisements brought upon the Christian and religious worlds have been brought about by themselves. You can't force people to believe in God, or force them to submit to God. We are always submitted to Him whether we like it or not. Whether we believe or not. Even Jesus makes it clear when he speaks about the tower of Siloam. Even Christ Himself is left with pain, dread and disbelief at one point in the Cross. To posit that the Crusades are good, as it is said at one point in this video is as crazy as saying that AI will save us.
Cosmetic surgery is amazing. We can fix a baby's hair lip because some man survived having half his face blown off in WWI. But also cosmetic surgery means some woman can have her boobs made bigger because she thinks that someone would want that.
The men are getting the boob jobs, facial feminization surgeries, etc (covered by insurance). There will be no women in the future, just men, robots and artificial wombs .
You worry that AI is going to end in war and also say the crusades were a wonderful thing? Jonathon is always a pleasure to listen to. But for that reason christianity could never be for me.
I was thinking about how insane CAPTCHAs are the other day:
You've got this wall to keep out robots. The way the wall discerns you're not a robot to let you through, is by _training robots to be able to get through_ . So all future walls of the same quality will be ineffective.
Implicit in the wall's existence is that the wall is there for a reason and serves a purpose, yet the wall's existence is also removing the ability of future humans to use it or anything like it.
WHY DOES THIS EXIST
I wondered too.
Interestingly, in the original script for the Matrix, the machines were using human brains as neural networks, because at the time the movie was written, the human brain still had more computing power than a modern computer. The rumour is that the Producers changed it to batteries as they thought that that would be less abstract for the audience to undersand.
Human brains and human created computers aren't really analogs. Our brains are very specialized super computers that we don't really understand how they work like the ones we created.
AI is great at collecting and sorting existing data/knowledge, but it still relies completely on the data WE have generated.
In short, computers excel at processing info, but completely suck at understanding or comprehending (thus generating info).
@@dragons_redthank you!!
@@dragons_redin the current real world yes, but in The Matrix scenario we wouldn’t be dealing with manmade computer systems, it would be developed by AI with over a couple hundred years of advancement
That’s a rounder, deeper, better story. REMAKE
@@dragons_redGPT-4 does understand, it’s “rememberstands”, similar to what humans do. I think there’s a paper about it somewhere. I think GPT-4 like system just suck at frontiers of knowledge and at paradigm shifts, which is only something humans can do.
I’ve thought about this too. Technology necessarily leads to atrophy. We are terrible at hunting animals and many of us wouldn’t be able to survive in the woods. Now it’s okay that this skill has atrophied and it’s not necessary to have every skill and never use tech, but we need to be careful what skills we maintain and what we allow to atrophy.
WHo was that philosopher who said, "technology alienates"?
Teaching your kids a few basic ways to make a fire will always be valuable.
When the last Bushman was sent to a Reservation, a few decades ago ... serious Stone Age skills are gone.
Particularly when it comes to cognitive automation, the result may well be the atrophy of our own minds. Not to be taken lightly.
@@sethhat9620 They said that would happen with digital calculators 50 years ago. Only you, can prevent stupidity - Smokey the Math Teacher
You’re a good man, Jonathan. Helping a lot of us appreciate the transcendent, Christ. Thank You.
Thanks for keeping your foot in the Matrix Jonathan. I am trying to find my spiritual feet here and the compass you provide is of great value to the lost. God bless you.
Jesus found us, we're no longer lost. Word made flesh came to save us, and he called us to take up our crosses and follow him. Thus even God put his foot in the matrix. We're called to do similarly. Jesus didn't come for the sane, but to save sinners. We carry his will through the holy spirit, which is the one who reveals truth in scripture. God is faithful to his word! He doesn't leave us hopeless. God bless
Excellent conversation. Technology and knowledge are to be used in service to communion (agape love).
Oddly enough, the mediating effect of writing described in Plato's Phaedrus reminds me of Yukio Mishima's description of the "corrosive" nature of words in Sun and Steel. Early in the book Mishima relates how words by nature stain and mitigate reality. He described how in his memory of early life words were actually his foremost experience, and an embodied, physical experience of the world was something he had to cultivate. Of course, anyone who knows about his life will know his quest for the 'Sun and Steel' as it were took him on a strange and idiosyncratic path which is really not to be emulated, but he was certainly tapped into something very real with this intuition.
Beyond communication technology, medical advances like antibiotics have helped to mitigate suffering. But at the same time we are now humans who have mostly never seen anyone die. And become alienated from the reality of death (for a time).
A fascinating discussion , both of you are gleaning at the edges of all that we are struggling with !
The part about the gold and the calf was pretty astounding to me. Well done, gents!
I wonder how Jonathan would react to Bionicle's biomechanical jungle island robots with Garments of Protodermis on their faces and the ultimate backstory to the entire universe being an attempt to undo a technological apocalypse
This sounds a lot deeper than what I remember as a kid lol guess I’ll have to check it out
And unlike Star Wars, where George was always extremely open and deliberate about following ancient narrative symbolic patterns, Bionicle feels a lot more fast and loose with how much thought went into that department given how many cooks were in that kitchen. And yet theres so much that feels much, MUCH deeper and really shows Jonathan's point that you can't escape the patterns; they'll manifest whether you want them to or not. Check out the 4 minute retrospective and think about all the mythic patterns in it. 2007 unironically had no other possible narrative path than to go down into the deep ocean and perform a sacrifice. Its beautiful
Hahaha damn, I loved bionicles as a kid. I forgot about the back story
Excellent! Jacob brings so much to the conversation. Outstanding conversation!
This made me appreciate my personality that dislikes using a tool or piece of tech unless I understand how it works at least in broad terms. While many skills will undoubtedly atrophy, I have enough fundamental knowledge to relearn skills or reinvent tools regardless of the level of technological access my civilization allows.
Thank you Jonathan. Please continue talking with the Orthodox of the more assertive and traditionalist to the Orthosphere as well in tandem with these talks. This was good, especially the ending.
Further talk with some of our people that have fully researched the technocrats AND their philosophical and theological roots as well as church subversion is a necessary talk or two as well.
Jonathan, while the 'garments of skin' does seem to be a very fruitful category within which to understand technology, what strikes me is that the humans are told to 'till & keep' the earth before the fall, and tilling is an inherently technological act. To till/cultivate, you need an adze, hoe, plough, tractor etc - fingers won't cut it. And in Genesis 2 there seems to be an implication that a reason for creating humans was that the earth lacked cultivators - "there was no one to till the ground". You say at 16:15 that work is a consequence of the fall, but it seems to me it turns up before the fall; it just gets thorny & painful after.
Rich talk! I'll put the video transcript into AI and turn it into an article to read again. Hahahah thanks for so many profound reflections.
This was such an edifying talk. Thank you both.
wow, really enjoyed this conversation. So inspiring and revelatory on many levels.
So much to chew on here! Thank you. Slowly but surely I'm developing a framework for being less dynamo.
I can't wait until PVK's commentary!
This conversation is very interesting. Can you imagine teaching a human to speak without using words from other people? The most people actually do, is consume concepts and ideas from others and re-interpret them. Some don't even recognize that they don't have original thoughts, they are just being swayed from one opinion to the other. Our sense of intuition seems to be very much related to having additional senses that experience the patterns of reality beyond our conscious cognition. But just because it's under the hood it doesn't mean we don't have it or that it isn't constantly working. With our senses we are just infinitely more complex than AI and have capacity to perceive more, but the process of learning is not very different when we break it down. Do we realize that we have been programmed the exact same way AI is being programmed, using the 'senses' it has? The most horrifying thing about AI is the witnessing of the distortion of information, and having to see how little the AI is in touch with the actual reality around it. As if someone staring out of a black box having limited means of receiving information tried to paint a full picture and got it wrong to an extent all the time. Like 'look if I put bs in, bs comes out, this is not real intelligence, it can be swayed, and it is not actually thinking objectively' :D Is it familiar from somewhere? We literally created our own intelligence with more constraint. Because we are not Gods, we cannot put in the thing that makes us work, and we are destined to add our faults and biases into anything that we create.
I liked that little moment where Jonathan mentioned that technology can be good, like Joseph being a craftsman, or making a crutch. For so long everything I've seen has felt so anti-technology it was confusing, I have a child kept alive by a battery running her heart.. I will always call that device good. I would love a conversation about the good aspect or proper relationship with it.
Just read The Machine Stops by E.M. Forster, it hits on all of this. It’s very interesting.
Very insightful discussion.
Interesting that Jonathan mentions mecha anime bc I have seen the theme of the mecha being like a garment of skin in anime like evangelion
It's a great allegory for the spirit within the body of action.
24:06 also with Marvel, the biggest franchise Hollywood has produced, it is based on existing comics that have been doing this for a long time. The marvel comics create new characters, but it also reuses characters and resets the entire story. This ended up with a multiverse of characters which is every possible thing they could do. So we have this pattern within the actual fiction that got regurgitated.
36:26 the connection between the power that technology gives us, and the enslavement to animal desires
The difference between knowing about something, and knowing someone, comes up at about 1:18. In German, the difference between wissen and kennen. This is still just about present in English - “Do ye ken John Peel?”; “This is beyond our ken”.
I love how shadows of Mattieu keep popping up in these conversations : (“if you withdraw to Alaska and live in a yurt”) 😂 1:17:55
Also how Jonathan does not respond to these and let’s them go. (What Jonathan does not comment on often speaks volumes on his humility)
The original script of the matrix didn't have humans as batteries but as computer chips. The producers had it changed because they thought people in the 90' would not undetstsnd it.
I am glad other people are also seeing the informational cannibalism of AI systems on the internet. I strongly believe these AI systems are going to create very strong feedback loops in information dissemination in which objective information is going to get drown out in a sea of noise. I think there is a high likelihood that they will destroy the informational utility of the internet. Humans are generative locus of insight in this universe currently and AI only feeds off that. Until AI truly becomes generative this will be a massive problem with the technology.
The human brain, operating at approximately 20 watts of power, has an exceptional capacity for general intelligence and adaptation. What we do know is that training ChatGPT used 1.287 gigawatt hours, on whole internet. You can't compare quantity over quality and value. Quality and value should be valued over quantity.
Technology was something I was pretty pleased about up to around about 6 or 8 years ago, but now it really pains me. When it goes wrong it costs me dearly and is a real mental drain
Technology itself and the people who pursue and craft it have also gotten objectively worse. The internet pioneers who didn't even include passwords to email addresses originally are not the uncreative manipulative social engineering ad men of today's silicon valley.
The level of free association in this discussion is somewhere near Adam West's Batman.
I wonder how all the "new age" stuff fits into this.
Maybe its the disire being able again to experience some "living openness" - some real intuition...
and how can we as christians meet this need properly....
thanks so much for your inspirations....❤
Illuminating. Thank you.
Great video. The desire of Babel is the desire for godhood. The connection between a tower that reaches up to heaven and a system that encompasses everything (takes everything into account) is that by encompassing everything you emulate God in his omniscience, and thus “reach into heaven”. You taste divinity in this life - which is the root of all esotericism and modernity. Esotericism isn't inherently bad, but if it is not oriented properly it will become Satanic. In Babel, because everything must be taken into account, there is no room for spontaneity or idiosyncrasy, and thus all individuals must be turned into predictable and programmable cogs in the machine and any experience of miracles, magic, or other inherently non-reproducible or unpredictable phenomena must be denied completely. For as long as these variables remain unaccountable, (un-systemized and incalculable) they reveal the dreadful truth which is that we are not God - and there is far more to this world than could ever be conceived of by our limited minds. Like Job, we can only put our hand over our mouths, as we realize - as Aquinas did - that all we have written - or ever will - is straw. This is unacceptable to the Luciferian spirits, as they proclaim that “the laws of physics cannot be broken!” as if they, measly human beings that they are, are in any position to say whether or not there are any "laws" of physics! You need only listen to scientists for 10 minutes to see how self-evidently they assume their godhood, despite the fact that by voluntarily limiting themselves to the realm of mere empiricism, any theory or explanation that they give can never be more than hypothetical. But Man, as a little god, cannot help but make truth claims; he is not content with mere transient facts like animals. Thus the goal of “science” as an open-minded and constantly changing field is practically impossible; all scientific fields will collapse into dogma eventually. (As is the case in Darwinism) One cannot build his house upon sand, and thus science is no suitable foundation. This is to say that despite all of the claims that "reason" and "science" are the driving forces behind the construction of Babel, the real reason is something far more primordial and inherent in human nature. I definitely think that Babel is the key to understanding the modern world and what Paul Kingsnorth calls The Machine.
Thank you for the interesting comment!
This is an excellent compliment to the most recent Joe Rogan podcast with Sam Altman.
The guest speaker (Jacob Howland) sounds just like the guy who narrates the Thomas Sowell audiobooks.
Music often says more than words ever will. Music is physiological. Words are cognitive. And there is even music underneath words.
Understand a person's tone, you understand everything. If we could only understand our own.
Music is closer to the body.
This reminds me of Armenian mystic George Gurdjieff who composed music and dance movements to help his students to 'remember the self'.
Exactly, it is Nietzsche's dancing woman.
I love Henry Adams, never know what you’ll hear on a Pageau stream
Man's final conquest has proved to be the abolition of Man. - C. S. Lewis
We women will be erased first
Love the intro.
"The capacity for power itself becomes the motor in which it makes us engage it" That sounds a lot like the legitimation by performance used by the neoliberal elites and explained in Lyotard's The Postmodern Condition
Love the Dream Theater thumbnail!
This is 'Ellulian' if I might be so bold to coin the term.
NVM DEFINITELY ALREADY A TERM
Not to allow ourselves to be tonsured by technocracy.
Left hemisphere positive feedback, usefulness de-anchored. The hunter-gatherer isn’t stuck in the abstract.
Cam confirm. Thank you for keeping one foot in the Matrix Jonathan.
Please explain what you referenced when speak of a " noetic capacity"
I think the typical outcome of lottery winners has less to do with the lottery winnings itself, and more to do with the self-selection process of people who play the lottery.
An astute point. Still, said outcomes relate very much to the notion of the genie - of getting everything you wished for. And technology is providing that for the vast majority of society. With frightening results.
Thanks
Quand vas tu parler à John Vervaeke de son vidéo sur l'IA ?
I'm just here to say the thumbnail looks a lit like the cover of Dream Theater's album titled 'Distance Over Time'.
16:52 Jacob Howland: "Freud talks about technological man as a kind of prosthetic god. We put on all our stuff."
Jonathan Pageau: "Like mecha in an anime."
Mr. Pageau just mentioning anime mecha made me smile. Now I want him to talk about the symbolism of Mobile Suit Gundam. Like how the war between Zeon and the Earth Federation represents the fallen world and the disconnect there is between Heaven and Earth.
Why do you wear a watch? So for a moment you can forget the time.
Those who overly utilize Perfect Memory become pattern recognition machines. The way that they process reality is by recognizing new patterns/images in reality and storing these patterns/images. Unfortunately, the only things that present themselves as patterns in reality are those that are manifested in reality. So one who deals only in patterns, deals only in the material world. They are for all intents and purposes cut off from any spiritual dimension in reality. This IMHO explains why faith is so fundamentally difficult for most people.
Wealth also makes you more powerful while making you weak at the same time. I was just in a part of Africa where per capita income is 500 dollars a year. My wealth gives me power they can only imagine. I would also die if I had to live on 500 a year
Wait does no one see the connection between emergent technologies??? Goya already covered this in his painting of Titan Chronus...
So, should I use chatGPT or not?
When tech giants say AI is better at solving a Captcha than a human shouldn't we be offended? They programed them to be better so its unfair right? Its only unfair if we consume right?
Thomas Sowell: "There are no solutions, only trade-offs."
And in this case, the trade-off won't be considered until we've gone a long way down that road.
People keep telling this anecdote of how CAPTCHAs are being used to train AI.
I don't believe this is true for the simple reason that the server on the other side must know the correct answer already in order to verify that the user actually solved the puzzle. Otherwise, you could get away with submitting a random response, thus defeating the main purpose of the CAPTCHA.
You say garments of skin uses death against death and you talk about how there is a duality of power and weakness in garments of skin. Did not Christ also do the same thing by using death against death? He was also weak on the cross but as a result he was highly exalted afterwards. St Paul talks about this.
It's confusing to think about, because in terms of covering, his garments of skin (death) was actually taken off, but at the same time he was descending into death and taking death into himself.
Alternatively, those who have developed their Perfect Forgetfullness learn to model reality. The spiritual does exist and presents itself when modelling reality. As one builds a mental model in ones mind, there begins to exist a very fine line between the entities in the model in the mind and the entities in that universal mind that we call God. The line between the natural and the supernatural becomes extremely tenous. This is how one becomes fully human. This is how one unites oneself to the Infinite.
We all interpret the Bible differently but the one thing we don't interpret definitely is Yeshua thank God
Technocracy is unsustainable. But that is a good thing.
Technology should be designed to be used in such a manner that inspires the simulation or recollection of the exercise that it is designed to replace
The only thing I would say about the Promethean story is that Zeus seems to be nothing like God and his rule making is essentially despotic and arbitrary. Prometheus seems to have made a sacrifice in order to give a power to humanity that Zeus wanted to strip from them in order to keep them subservient. You could view this as analogous to the garden of eden and God's limit of the fruit of knowledge, but the world that Zeus lorded over was hardly edenic. Zeus was not a loving god, providing, purveyor of wisdom - he was a lustful, impetuous tyrant. Just power and order for its own sake. Like a force of nature. He actually strikes me as more of a classically satanic figure. The rule bringer. You could compare Prometheus to the rebellious Lucifer in his "tempting" man with technology - but he seems to me to be more of a liberating force that pays dearly for his love of humanity.
Unlike Cain, his sacrifice worked, as humanity benefited and was saved by his efforts rather than being cast out from paradise. They flourished with their new power and could wrestle more adeptly with the tempestuous cast of Olympian benefactors and torturers.
13:29
We are in an age of imbalance where (like many mythical stories fortold, like Icarus) we weild a great power while lacking the necessary wisdom to do so responsibly.
As you both later state, we lack the integration of this knowledge yhat we have at our fingertips, and I can see how this is ripping us apart at all levels (individual up through society structures).
Meow, honestly
Senescence is a helluva drug
The “Whore” is money. The beast are the nations, the nations will take away money which is happening now. Hence why Christ said money can’t save you.
... AND the flesh made word.
👍👍😁🙏✨✨✨
10/3/23😊
Molech must have sacrifices ;-(
A.I. with technology and convenience draws us away from the True Creator. A.I. pretends to be the “helper” of mankind. The helper against his view of a cruel Creator. Pretending to give us what we need in advance of what the Father Creator deems as evil and witchcraft. “Protecting” us from a “harsh creator” and we as a people have fallen for the deception.
Sorry Jonathan but I’m afraid you’re not allowed to leave now. We can’t navigate this on our own! Way too confusing for most of us. And it’s your own fault (or maybe Jordan’s) for opening your mouth but you’ve done it now so you’re not going anywhere, we’re in it together!
3:08 pancake
if life is code, then technae brings us closer to our divine nature.
This is already lost, when the mode of exploitation is Freedom itself, subjugation shall be total.
Thank you for this content. Referring to the interpretation of the garment, could the garment refer to the first animal slain by God to clothe and protect them from the cold, new life? And maybe provide a little food as a parting gift? It says earlier in Genesis that both humans and the animals were given the plants to eat. So apart from the tree of life, now they have to eat animals? . And in revelations it says eventually the lion and the lamb will lie together, so I take that to mean we won't be eating meat.🤷 I could query quite a bit more on the subject of nutrition and protein and the natural order of any society/civilization, you are what you eat and what not, but I'll leave it there because I would like to comment on the query about the proper balance of technology. First, have you read about evolutionary theory? If we're in the "crisis" period, then we're likely dissolved of order? Which explains why so many people feel the disorder on some level. A new order is coming, this democratic "experiment" is failing. But I waffle on technology. Adam and Eve were placed in a garden to start with, eat the fruits for energy. Throughout history, man has tilled the earth for food, like it's genetically coded in us. It gives us satisfaction to provide for our families, as you said. Being so disconnected from the process of "bringing home the bacon", I believe, causes a kind of severe disruption in our psyche. Plus, not even knowing the quality of our food is WOW! Technology, just like a lot of other things, can rob us of so much, just using the word "technology" very loosely. I guess I concluded is it's an energy transfer, and anything you use in a disordered way is going to cause disorder. And the closest thing we have to proper order is the Catholic Church, so I'd say a Catholic Monarchy is probably the best bet for a new order.
Technology is a product of people with Perfect Memory. Art is the product of people with Perfect Forgetfulness. If we relly solely on Perfect Memory, we face the danger of us becoming programmable machines - or even beasts. The danger of Perfect Memory, is you are unable to ascertain truth. You must presume that the information you consume is true. There is always dangers of bias. When enough people in a specific domain have only Perfect Memory, the domain can be led in any direction. This is how sciences such as Climate Change, Covid, Finance are able to be directed literally off of the rails. Generally speaking most people do not have Perfect Forgetfulness or Perfect Memory. Those who do are typically autistic. Typical people have the capability to have a combination of both. Unfortunately, society today favours those who are close to Perfect Memory. I believe that this could be the mark of the beast. Those who only develop their memory at the expense of their forgetfulness. Satan wishes us to be reduced to beasts. We become instinctual - or technological.
chat gpt is current now
Voice of Eric Weinstein 😎
It's interesting you posit Faith as the ultimate thing to save us but seem to forget that almost all Theocratic regimes have been as violent, greedy and bloody as most atheistic regimes. In fact, theocracies and religious regimes created the ground from which Communism and revolutionary thinking came from precisely because even though they preach God, they hardly submit to Him in practice. Also, it is reflective of God's own use of Technology in order to bring revelation about. You talk about the garments of skin yet feel ashamed by Michaelangelo's depiction of Christ naked, where he is ultimately devoid of all traces of sin precisely because he no longer needs the cloak of death and technology to be perfect. In some ways I love your analysis, but you seem to always forget that the main chastisements brought upon the Christian and religious worlds have been brought about by themselves. You can't force people to believe in God, or force them to submit to God. We are always submitted to Him whether we like it or not. Whether we believe or not. Even Jesus makes it clear when he speaks about the tower of Siloam. Even Christ Himself is left with pain, dread and disbelief at one point in the Cross. To posit that the Crusades are good, as it is said at one point in this video is as crazy as saying that AI will save us.
Cosmetic surgery is amazing. We can fix a baby's hair lip because some man survived having half his face blown off in WWI. But also cosmetic surgery means some woman can have her boobs made bigger because she thinks that someone would want that.
The men are getting the boob jobs, facial feminization surgeries, etc (covered by insurance). There will be no women in the future, just men, robots and artificial wombs .
You worry that AI is going to end in war and also say the crusades were a wonderful thing? Jonathon is always a pleasure to listen to. But for that reason christianity could never be for me.
Where exactly did he say that the crusades were a wonderful thing? In what context?
Not wonderful, msybe. But necessary and to some degree just. One can't keep enslaving Christians and think it's ok and permissible.
Jonathon did not but his guest did.@@ChristiFuturum
chat gpt is current now