Amazing episode. I'm a little surprised that Tolkien was not envolved in this conversation, since in his mythology he does a marvelous work in redeeming pagan symbolism! Even the "gods" are in some ways redeemed and find their proper place in the hierarchy.
@@lo5182 Thank you. Recently I certainly have more of an appreciation for things like the liturgy, the art in traditional churches, stain glass windows etc. These things are so deep in meaning and I feel that Evangelical church has lost a lot of the richness that comes from tradition. As a child and teenager I attended a Roman Catholic school and college, and much of my dad ‘s side of the family are dedicated Catholics. I became atheist in my teenage years, but came to the Lord in my early 20s. Although I am heavily involved in my own church, which is Free Methodist, many of my family events, such as christenings, funerals, and marriages are all in a Catholic Church. My reaction to many of the things inside Catholic Churches after getting saved has certainly one of distain and uncomfortableness. I can’t help but see anything but I idolatry when I she Catholics bowing down to what seems to be an idol. But listening to these conversations is certainly starting to make me question some of these thoughts and feelings. I have never really stepped foot inside a traditional Orthodox Church before, but I imagine it to be quite similar to the Roman Catholic Church? I have so many questions, and I am willing to humble myself and admit that I may have been wrong about things in the past. But I’m certainly gaining a deeper respect for more traditional forms of Christianity.
I also grew up protestant and had similar reservations. What helped me was the Old testament- God told Aaron to fashion cherubim out of gold for His mercy seat on the ark of the covenant, asked Moses to embroider angels into the veil of the temple, instructed Solomon to fashion 15ft tall olive wood and gold covered cherubim for the holy of holies- idols take the place of God, but icons and most statuary all direct to God, and similary give Glory to God. Reverence to saints is not worship, only God is worshipped. If you saw someone bring flowers and light a candle before an icon and call it idolatry, the same accusation could be made that some protestants practice ancestor worship because they bring flowers and candles and sing music for their loved ones. It's all about the intentionality, the purpose, and the focus- which is why Orthodox and Catholics insist on having funerals and marriages in churches- it aligns the purpose in relation to God, because God was the first to bring man and woman together, and will also bring us up on the dread day of judgement.
Came across Mr. Pageu through Mr. Peterson, inspired me to start attending the Greek Orthodox church with my wife and son in order to better understand the mysticism of Chrisitianity.
This was so important for me to hear. My heart belongs to paganism, but I am trying to converted to Christianity. To be reassured that I don’t have to let go of all of the ‘pagan’ things I love, but that I can incorporate them into a higher religion makes me profoundly satisfied.
This has to be the most interesting comment I've ever seen on TH-cam. What a journey you're on. I pray that it ends with you worshiping Christus Victor
I always like how the Hindus handled it. There is one totality of being, yet it is comprised of innumerable elements. Of many gods, one. Of one god, many. Like white light scattered through a prism and refocused back again. I think this is what the commandment "Thou shalt have no other god before me" is about. It doesn't say there aren't other gods or that one shouldn't form a relationship with them. But they are of lesser priority; steps along the way.
Its incredibly disheartening that these people are lying to you. 1 John 2:15-17 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world-the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life-is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
You never really give up anything for Christ, he is everything. The love of God is so great as to make us forget the lesser things. In Christ is the fulfillment of our needs, not the denial of them. When you know this you will change voluntarily. You might not even notice it will be so easy
And he said to them, “Therefore every scribe who has been trained for the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house, who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old.”
I was a little perplexed that some Orthodox would see a sharing of a tradition, veneration etc with catholics as syncretism. We catholics share hymns with protestants, of course not all of their hymns just a select few that don't contradict our faith. And btw, we do make a distinction between Christmas carols and Christmas hymns. A carol would never be sung at mass. Speaking of traditions, i do believe that the Christmas hymn 'Silent Night' will one day be a special hymn for those with learning disabilities. My sister who has Downe Syndrome could sing the first few lines of that hymn before she could talk and to this day she talks little and in very short sentences, but she can sing 'Silent Night'. Over the years i and others who work with learning disabled adults and children have noticed the reactions of people with learning disabilities to 'Silent Night'. I was at a Protestant hymn service and seen the same reaction to the hymn there from two learning disabled people. Its a very gentle and calming hymn and spiritually resonates with the slower and gentle pace of those with learning disabilities, and the universalism of Mother and Child.
There are sadly many Orthodox who, filled with an anti-western animus, reject the integration of western traditions and practices into Orthodoxy because they "seem catholic" or protestant. But this attitude is not reflective of the Orthodox faith; it's more of a historical issue stemming from lack of exposure to Orthodox westerners. Thankfully this is changing due to the introduction of the Western Rite into Orthodoxy.
Bro what about Filioque? Filioque, (Latin: “and from the Son”), phrase added to the text of the Christian creed by the Western church in the Middle Ages and considered one of the major causes of the schism between the Eastern and Western churches. See Nicene Creed”
I really struggle with different churches claiming to be the only true church and claiming the others are heretics. I get that the theological differences and stuff are extremely important, but I always think about "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." So I wonder if the choice of church is very important but not the most important thing, and perhaps people who put too much importance on it are making an idol of the church itself.
I'm Lithuanian and I was amazed the first time I ever heard about your traditions. It's truly astonishing how practices so similar manifest in different sides of the Earth entirely independently of each other.
I appreciate what you are doing. It’s a different point but I feel like it’s related. some stories, even when they portray sin, if they properly present it as tragic, actually remind us of God or push us towards him. Artists like Johnny Cash or Nick Cave both of whom eventually moved towards Christ always presented human characters and sin in its reality in an artful not preachy way. I feel like tragedy both in story and music is True and although it occupies a different space from worship - we have to be telling those stories always because well, most of us are more sinner than saint and our tragic experiences have to be shared or else we can’t face the truth of ourselves as well. The problem is when things are perverted and Goodness is presented as negative or sin is presented as good.
Wow, that was cool. “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a fishing net that was thrown into the water and caught fish of every kind. When the net was full, they dragged it up onto the shore, sat down, and sorted the good fish into crates, but threw the bad ones away. That is the way it will be at the end of the world. The angels will come and separate the wicked people from the righteous, throwing the wicked into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." "Do not quench the Spirit, but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil."
I am a Catholic from birth. I love this video. I have been to eastern Byzantine Church’s in various places. And I love them. I love the icons. Right this minute I do not like my Catholic church’s’ behavior. It’s embarrassing and it’s crazy. I am very intrigued with the orthodox and I know we don’t 100% agree but frankly, we probably agree quite a bit. The bottom line … Is to fall in love with the Lord Jesus Christ… The Trinity… However, we understand it. That’s the bottom line I think. Plus both of these churches love mother Mary. I will not leave my Catholic faith. However, I will not listen to them anymore because they’re all acting insane. There are a few that aren’t and that’s fine but it does not uplift me very much. I will stick with my beliefs from childhood. But I definitely think God does not live in a box, and we must be open to the Bible in the Lord Jesus Christ as he speaks to us through his word. I think this is really great, and I think that we must unify with each other. There should not be a split here I don’t like splits and I don’t think God does either. I think we’re all pretty much in communion and I’m sorry that there is such a ridiculous situation for us all. But I think we all are one and I thank you for all of you what you do. And Jonathan I listen to you all the time you’re pretty cool I love it. Thank you. Love you all! We are united in Jesus Christ our Savior.
Good luck in your journey. The Catholic Magisterium is not confusing, embarrassing or crazy and is consistent in guiding but the members of the Church are human and love to create confusion, panic and legalism. Its hard dealing with it. May God bless you, brother in Christ
I am Catholic, I returned to Church not long ago and I was very pleased with what I found, but the other time I went to a crazy mass with some allegedly Carmelite priests, and it was absolutely horrendous and almost upside down. I think I had nightmares that day. As you say, I wish the cult life was everywhere as it was when I was a kid, it was already Novus Ordo, but everyone was so devoted and reverent.
It’s accepting your history and integrating Christ into that. Being reborn doesn’t mean you let go of who you are totally. You keep the good stuff and let go of the bad.
I don´t even need to see the video to know that Christianity is the most inclusive Faith there is, no question about it. Christendom is the glue that binds us together, no matter our ancient pasts. God is everything! John 3:16!
Another good example of this happening between catholics and orthodox would be the icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help. Likely in other catholic countries as well (one would have to look it up), but here in Brazil there are various catholic churches dedicated to that icon, which seems to have an orthodox origin but has been in Rome for some centuries now. The catholic churches that have those are not even oriental catholics, normal latin catholics. I myself am orthodox and I have a mini icon of it, I also know of other fellow parish members who have it. So it is a good example of a bridge between catholics and orthodox.
Extract from Mark Twain about the adaptions of Christian icons based on nationality. (Published 1867 Innocents Abroad travel log of his trip to Holy Land). Any one who is acquainted with the old masters will comprehend how much “The Last Supper” is damaged when I say that the spectator can not really tell, now, whether the disciples are Hebrews or Italians. These ancient painters never succeeded in denationalizing themselves. The Italian artists painted Italian Virgins, the Dutch painted Dutch Virgins, the Virgins of the French painters were Frenchwomen-none of them ever put into the face of the Madonna that indescribable something which proclaims the Jewess, whether you find her in New York, in Constantinople, in Paris, Jerusalem, or in the empire of Morocco. I saw in the Sandwich Islands, once, a picture copied by a talented German artist from an engraving in one of the American illustrated papers. It was an allegory, representing Mr. Davis in the act of signing a secession act or some such document. Over him hovered the ghost of Washington in warning attitude, and in the background a troop of shadowy soldiers in Continental uniform were limping with shoeless, bandaged feet through a driving snow-storm. Valley Forge was suggested, of course. The copy seemed accurate, and yet there was a discrepancy somewhere. After a long examination I discovered what it was-the shadowy soldiers were all Germans! Jeff Davis was a German! even the hovering ghost was a German ghost! The artist had unconsciously worked his nationality into the picture. To tell the truth, I am getting a little perplexed about John the Baptist and his portraits. In France I finally grew reconciled to him as a Frenchman; here he is unquestionably an Italian. What next? Can it be possible that the painters make John the Baptist a Spaniard in Madrid and an Irishman in Dublin?
@@cathiemckimm6677 well i think that is sort of the jesuit perspective, but what I mean is EO icons follow a byzantine style, so there is no "white Jesus", even in Russia, Serbia, etc...
Great topic well handled. I’ve been looking into this because of the Joe Rogan Brian Muraresku interviews on Brian’s “Pagan Christian Continuity Hypothesis”
I'm sad you reminded my about the Synod on Synodality... sigh... It would be incredibly interesting to have a talk like this on American indigenous Christians. For many Westerners, even those who are Catholics who are so imbued with Protestant thinking, it is hard to see the blurry line between syncretism and assimilation. It doesn't help that many of these communities are still very remote by Western standards.
As I grow older, I find myself becoming more religious, but I strongly dislike the idea of indoctrinating someone. I understand that, when done correctly, it can potentially be beneficial. Mr. Pageau is a prime example of this. But I know for a fact that I cannot discuss my beliefs as gracefully as he does. Nevertheless, I have found that meaningful discussions have been where I've experienced the most personal growth. My issue arises when I'm in conversation and I feel as though I'm preaching rather than having a genuine dialogue with someone. I'm still young and have much to learn, not only about the Bible but also about life in general. However, I often hear the phrase, "there isn't a right way to be" in today's world, and as I become more grounded in my faith, I strongly disagree with this statement. I don't want to impose doctrines on others, but I do believe in God, at least I've witnessed the power of Him in my own experience. Therefore, I feel like I have some responsibility to talk about it. Do you have any advice on how I can balance the two?
Something that was taught me early on were the beatitudes. Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. What is interesting is beatitudes 1-6 are all about personal purity ending with the pure in heart. Only after achieving purity in heart can I be a peacemaker, and only then will I be persecuted falsely for righteousness sake. Ergo, preaching and discussion can be extremely valuable, but they are infinitely more effective when coming from a pure heart in the first place. That takes time, and I don't even claim to be poor in spirit. Anyway, I suspect honestly going on a journey to achieve the beatitudes for you will allow you to achieve your aim within God's will.
This is why I still celebrate Christmas, Easter and Day of the Dead even though my church doesn’t. I claim them as family events. I don’t care that there’s pagan roots. There’s also Christian practice in that for centuries. I’m not going to get rid of it because others want to give the pagan aspect more power than the Christian aspect
No one can love the Father without keeping the commandments because that is how he is loved (according to scripture). You can't love him by bowing to a golden calf for example... When the people decided to fashion a golden calf for a feast to our Father, did our Father accept this ? When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made a proclamation, and said, “TOMORROW SHALL BE A FEAST TO YAHWEH.” They rose up early on the next day, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play. Yahweh spoke to Moses, “Go, get down; for your people, who you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves! Exodus 32:5-7 (please keep reading)
They were worshipping the golden calf as a god. When God cursed the Israelites to be bitten by snakes, God commanded Moses to erect a bronze snake on a cross, so whoever looks at it with faith will be healed. That’s God reclaiming the incident with the golden calf. No one who venerates icons worships them, but rather sees that God worked through the people depicted in the icon. The same way God worked through the snake on the cross, or through St. Paul’s very shadow to heal, He can work through icons.
@@lbwnova6654 read it again they dedicated the day to Yahweh ... Just like dedicating a day like Christmas to our Messiah when he wasn't even born in December using pagan practices to do so 😳.... Please provide scriptural evidence of how we are told to keep Christmas...
Hah! What about St Patrick’s day? It’s a party and food day in the USA but it’s roots are religious Too bad it’s down graded to an excuse for silliness but it could be resanctified by all thoughtful Christians.
I've watched some Ronald Hutton lectures recently about supposed Pagan deities in medieval England, and how they were not really Pagan deities after all. That blends in well with what I'm hearing here. Sometimes I play with singers who like to sing Baltic folk songs, and I suspect them of Pagan LARPing too. I suspect that some Anglo-Americans find Baltic culture a convenient touchstone for some kind of attempt to revive European Paganism or rescue the "ancestral ways" from the Colonialist Christian Hegemony or something. Dave Greene's essay "A Letter to Right-Wing Pagans" on his Fiddler's Greene Substack in May 2022 also squares well with this interview.
32:14 Coincidentally, the feast of the Holy Martyr Arethas and the 4,299 Martyrs with him in Najran was just a few days ago, October 24, 2 days before this video was uploaded.
This was a great conversation but it lost the plot a bit when he started talking about Catholic traditions being adopted by the Orthodox. I think he forgets just how similar we are, we are brother and sister churches. Hardly the same as the adopting of pagan imagery from ancient Rome.
Its more that its very important for Orthodox in America to hear. You wouldn't believe the level of insanity some converts go about rejecting Catholic or Protestant traditions simply because its not a standard Orthodox tradition
The Orthodox view of the Roman church is not this view. The Orthodox view is that there is only One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The functional term here is One. We do not view the Roman church as a sister or brother church.
@@jairiskeThe reason we are like that is because we cannot be one foot in, and one foot out. Given the current state of affairs, we must fully adopt Orthodox traditions and reject our former Protestant or Catholic traditions because of the radical difference between East and West. We cannot have our cake and eat it too, as the saying goes. This is why we declare that we reject our former beliefs when we’re baptized, and this is what the idea of the Orthodox phronema is.
@jairiske I don't think you can speak for Orthodoxy, whatever that means (you are not really one or catholic). But I've heard many Orthodox espouse the view of brother or sister churches
@@Re_Ruggero This is not an Orthodox view. This is a Catholic view. The Orthodox Church views Rome as in schism and bordering on heresy as the schism continues with “doctrinal development.”
In England there is a carved stone high cross that has the Sigurd legend on the bottom too. Perhaps it was being used to symbolize St Michael destroying the Devil?
So what struck me is probably way too simple but it just seems that the evolution from paganism to Christianity is simply when we know better we do better. Personally I prefer paganism over the scientism and materialism of today - the pagans intuited to worship and were spiritual. In another podcast Jonathan said Christianity AND …. Taking what remains after the knowledge of Christ as true and adding Christs teachings.❤
22:35 How many pagans in 8th Century Northumbria? Quite a few, because of the Viking settlers. See, for example, the Wikipedia article on “Scandinavian York.”
Vikings had not even started raiding England until late in the 8th C. There may have been some traders sure... but it was a solidly Christian land at that time. Their point still stands.
@@Xanaseb No you're wrong, yes the theology was Christian, but pagan beliefs, rituals and symbolism was still the absolute forefront of the English church. Just look up the Sutton Hoo helmet, it's decorate all over with dragons and etchings of Odin performing ritual. Such a warped view of history.
@@Alfred5555 Thanks, but I definitely made a mistake. I misremembered when the settlements in Northumbria started. There was a strong influence, but not mass settlement like I was referring to with York. Sutton Hoo was Anglo Saxon, but it did show the likes of Odin.
Frequently I've heard of folks from other cultures converting to protestantism and thinking that their cultures cannot be saved or redeemed. Culture is a part of you and can be redeemed through Christ! It merely needs to find its place in Christianity. My heart breaks for the people who have been told that their culture needs to be cast off, usually by some pastor who doesn't understand it or know what to do with it- or worse - thinks it as just pagan and evil. It disturbs me when they are told or feel the need to adopt a more American "christian" culture. I think protestant iconoclasm and destruction of beauty, history, and wisdom has hurt so many people. I know that not all Protestants would do this... at least not intentionally. But I see it and hear of it too much.
I disliked Christianity growing up because I could tell the adults in my life were just going through the motions and pretending to understand it, but were completely unable to explain it. Pageau has given me perspective enough to appreciate it. I think over the course of my life, I have learned the lessons that Christianity is intended to convey, yet the Pagan path is what draws me. Putting it into psychological terms, one could say that Paganism represents the primal elements of the mind - the embrace of emotions and whims as a fundamental basis of life. Jesus meanwhile represents the ego's power to direct the mind in pursuit of the higher ideals of the superego. In some sense, the white light of Heaven is made up of many colours, and Jesus is the prism through which they're brought into coherence. Yet without the individual colours, there is only darkness. And that's where I am in life. Due to whatever trauma, health or neurological issue I'm suffering from, years ago I lost the ability to fully convert my emotions into lived experience. Life feels hollow and dead. Life used to feel so vibrant and meaningful, and now there's hardly anything left of me. I need that spark of life again; the free flow of emotions. I need my primal essence re-awakened. One god that has found his way into my life is Odin. It was through following his path of almost masochistic perseverance against all odds that I'm able to sustain myself against depressive ruts. And it's through my feminine understanding of narrative that I reshape myself and grow.
well , let's see the power of Odin and the power of Christ through that subject , because the doors of child wonder had been opened to me since i came into the church and only closed when i was doing transgression
Well, talking about adaptation of pagan traditions. Well known in the US as a Christmas carol "Carol of the Bells" is actually old Ukrainian pagan song "Schedryk" adapted by the Ukrainian composer Mykola Leontovych in 1914. "Shchedryk" was in turn adapted as an English Christmas carol, "Carol of the Bells", by another Ukrainian - Peter J. Wilhousky of NBC Radio, following a performance of the original song by the Ukrainian National Chorus at Carnegie Hall on October 5, 1922. But the original Schedryk has nothing to do with Christmas. Shchedryk ("Bountiful Evening") is a Ukrainian shchedrivka, or New Year's song. It tells a story of a swallow flying into a household to proclaim the plentiful and bountiful year that the family will have. The title is derived from the Ukrainian word for "bountiful". The song is based on a traditional folk chant whose language was thought to have magical properties. The chant is thought to be of prehistoric origins and was associated with the coming New Year which in Ukraine before the introduction of Christianity (before Volodymyr the Great brought Christianyty to Kyiv and than spreaded it through Medieval Ukrainian state known as Rus' or Kyivan Rus') was originally celebrated in April. As for Lithuania, she was heavily influnced and introduced to Orthodox Christianity by Ukraine (then known as Ru's, Kyivan Rus', Rusiae or Ruthenia), which after being defeated by the Golden Horde made an alliance with Lithuania forming the state Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus', etc. (Magnus Ducatus Lithvaniae, Rusiae, etc.). But then Poland brought Catrholicism to Lithuania when the two states formed even bigger alliance - Rzeczpospolita aka Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The struggle for influence over Lithuania between Ukraine and Poland led to a civil war when Grand Duke of Lithuania Švitrigaila fighting against Polish Catholic influence led an upraising of Orthodox Christians, proclaiming separation of Grand Duchy of Rus' (orthodox Ukraine and part Lithuania that today is known as Belorus) with his capital in Kyiv. Unfortunatelly he lost though the struggle between Ukrainian Orthodoxes and Polish Catholics continuede and led to the Khmelnitsky uprising which eventually destroyed Rzeczpospolita and brought bad blood between Ukrainians and Poles for centuries to follow. Yet there were attempts to integrate Orthodoxy and Catholicism by creating "Ecclesia Ruthena unita" or Ruthenian (Rus') Uniate Church now known as Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. It was an interesting experiment conducted by Ukrainian Duke Kostiantyn Vasyl Ostrozkyi who later regreted it. Another interesting experiment was conducted in Muscovy (now known as "Russia") by anotrher Ukrainian - Theophan Prokopovich. He reformed Muscovian Orthodox Church effectively transforming it into something similar to Anglican Church by subjugating Muscovian Church to the head of Muscovy - "tsar". So it's funny for me when some Western people consider modern "Russian Church" to be Orthodox while it is essentially a kind of Protestant Church because it is fully under control of the Russian state. It was so during Russian Empire (the so-called "priests" in Russian Orthodox church were government officials) and it is so in the modern Russian Church which was recreated by Stalin. Though now "priests" there are not simply government officials, but KGB agents (during Soviet period) and now FSB agents. The current head of Russian Church (Gundyayev aka "Patriarch Kirill of Moscow") was a KGB agent in Switzerland in 1970s.
What happens when the iconic good becomes so twisted in the minds of those who appreciate it's profound beauty that it possesses its "worshipers" with the hubris to rebel against Ineffable Good; so much so that its priests, its learned artists, and avid appreciators... even the best of them... can't even make a proper judgement in a simple land dispute, twisting complexities of meaning into idolatrous arbitrariness? In reaching for Absolute Good is it not necessary to take sides against bad disguising itself as good? After all, our ancestors did away with The Inquisition. So we can at least hate the disguised devils in our hearts and speak against them without fear of the auto-da-fé... at the moment. God Help Us All.
No, not "preserved" at all, the ones that survive have survived yes, but early Christianity systematically and consciously destroyed everything it didn't like, we simply do not know all that has been erased. Why are you incapable of understanding this? If Christianity didn't happen, we would still have all the same pagan knowledge but more so.
@@gch8810 No, this is just anti-math and anti-logic, Christians destroyed and erased more than they preserved, ergo they didn't preserve, they destroyed, you can't just ignore the systematic cultural erasure and point at the little that survived and conclude preservation. This is like saying Genghis Khan preserved a town, because he only wiped out 90% of them and not the usual 100%.
@@ryrocks9487 Read my previous comments to learn why this isn't true. We don't even have good records of early Christianity or other large sects of Christianity because the groups were fighting and erasing each other. Or was the Nag Hammadi library an example of good Christian history keeping too? The the scriptures were so persecuted they just had to buried in a pot in the middle of a desert to survive. That's a very strange, mysterious and perverted way of claiming you contributed to preserving history.
The ‘coplat stolpas ‘ (I definitely messed that spelling up), made me wonder if ‘stolpas’ has the same etymological roots as stupas, a type of spiritual shrine found all over the Buddhist world. Any ideas on that?
It's called "koplytstulpis". The two words are "koplyčia" and "stulpas". Koplyčia means chapel and its diminutive form - "koplytėlė" means a little shrine. Stulpas means a pole or a column. So it's literally a column shrine.
God owns all good and true things anyway. Like in Romans it says from Him, to Him, and through Him are all things. So yes freely reclaim any good or true thing. Evil cannot create it can only twist or steal.
Not at all what they were saying. I can definitely see where the confusion comes in, and I don’t know if they are clear enough about what they’re saying.
the bible and christs incarnation represents the summation of the wisdom of the ages that poured through so many great minds before him and after him, the bible contains many teachings from the east, from Stoics, from jewish mystics, from egyptian mysticism, from astrology. it is undeniable to not see christ as a kind of incarnation of the sun, the light of the world, he who divides the seasons, surrounded by the twelve filters of his white light the 12 signs of the zodiac. astrological symbols fill the bible, and are often found in much early christian art.
I don’t understand the difference between polemic and polarization…. If you’re cursing “heretics”, that’s automatically going to create an interpersonal chasm between you and them.
Please speak on Graham Hancock. He’s really going against the faith. I was watching his rogan interview and he really implicitly and explicitly goes against everything.
I didn't know, I thought he was somewhat Protestant because of all the flood narrative in his work. I really like what he does, but he's definitively more intellectually near to the "scientific" postmodernity than to symbolism. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure he still has a role to play in all of this.
Just a thought I want to throw out there: I am not a naive protestant who thinks any pagan traces/ influences in Christianity should be rejected, actually I am Orthodox and I wholeheartedly agree with the notion presented here, that the ancient pagan world can and was baptised and transformed to fit into the Christian world. However, it seems to me that sometimes you gentlemen might be to quick to accept any ancient christian artefact as being "great" as if there could never have been people going to far with this in the ancient world. Especially many of the germanic frankish examples of the late 8th to 9th century seem to me not "ideal" versions of this and should be met with more scrutiny since we can see that the region lost the Orthodox Spirit not soon after. Not every pagan-christian amalgamation should be accepted solely because it is "ancient" and they could not have been wrong back then.
Can we straighten out pronunciations? Bale is the last name of an actor first name Christian. Ba'al has a pause in the middle, and sounds like a sheep's "baaa" attached to "all".
The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt. Who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9 God makes it very clear: “Learn not the way of the heathen…for the customs of the peoples are vain” (Jeremiah 10:2-3,), stressing His total rejection of practices adopted from other religions even if they are intended to honor Him. For God is never honored by disobedience...
So then you must explain all the times in the Bible when God Himself used pagan symbolism. The snake on the cross that He commanded Moses to erect so that whoever looks on it with faith would be healed. He reclaimed the Hebrew worship of the golden calf, showing that their worship of anything not God is evil, not the object itself. The eastern star that was followed by the pagan kings. Consulting the stars in such a manner is historically a pagan practice, but God used it to lead the kings to Himself, the One who created the stars they worshiped. The verses you quoted are not as black and white as people make them out to be. If they were, the very act of using the names of the days of the week “Thor’s day = Thursday” would be following the heathen’s way
@@lbwnova6654 biblical days are 1 2 3 4 5 6 Sabbath my friend read Gen:1 I hope this helps... If you bring your pagan idols in your house like an evergreen tree around winter solstice tell me what scripture says that this is how you are to worship God like this?... Yahweh says this Exodus 20:4-6 [4] “You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: [5] you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, [6] and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. It doesn't end well when you do for example They rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified to them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and followed the nations that were around them, concerning whom Yahweh had commanded them that they should not do like them. 2 Kings 17:15
@@Damian.WilliamsYou are using discredited scholarship not even actual atheist scholars believe, that is, associating the symbols of Christmas (symbols that are, by the way, almost in every case exclusive of North Europe yet are the basis for a condemnation of a world-wide feast with many different traditions in other parts of the worlds and associate icons) with paganism. No serious historian dares to do so and it has been shown time and time again that the majority of these traditions are modern or at best medieval innovations with no connection to actual pagan practices. Worse, you are condemning well-established christian celebrations on the basis of a judaizing tendency, celebrations that are within the faith from even before it was legalized. Why should I thrust your judgement on these matters, and not those of saints, martyrs and genuine believers in the ancient times, closer to the apostles and the infant church? If the christian communities saw no problem with Christmas, why should we on the basis of mere speculation? It becomes even more ironic when one remembers that the church you are, I assume unknowingly, condemning, is the one that preserved and canonized the Bible you are using to attack them.
After reading the comments here, I think it’s VERY important to point out that you cannot worship God in any way you want. The Church can restore some things to the Truth, but incorporating random things that you like into worship is not Christian. God killed people for that. Edit: What I mean by this is worshipping God is not a matter of personal preference. It is not up to each individual how they will worship Him. Worship is for us, not God. And He gave us the proper way to worship Him to unite us to Him. For our own good.
"Worship is for us not God" this is precisely why you can approach God in any way you want to. Spirituality is the science of subjectivity. There's no One particular way that all of humanity is supposed to worship God, I know that is what Bible teaches. But it's precisely because of this immature view of God, Iam a Hindu not a Christian. In Hinduism God is not limited as being approachable by only one path or name or particular. Rather the particulars of Worship are subject dependent not object dependent. God doesn't need our worship. Hence we can subjectively approach him in different ways.
As a side note a God that kills people for attempting to approach him through different ways is a very juvenile and insecure God and not worth worshipping. Such a God is not infinite and betrays a rather human and tribalistic character.
@@bradleyperry1735 "Hinduism is the worship of Demons" We know that's your opinion and the opinion of your Church, but as sincere practicing Hindus, we consider this viewpoint bogus and worthless.
St Isaac was not a Nestorian. St Paisios claimed that St Isaac appeared to him in a vision and told him that he was not a Nestorian. Does Fr Andrew believe that St Paisios was in prelest?
@@jacob6088 sometimes people will try to pull the "Saints aren't infallible card". But St Paisios isn't expressing an opinion here. Either St Paisios was in prelest, or St Isaac was not a Nestorian. No other option.
I don't believe that St. Isaac was a Nestorian. I said so in this video, too. There is no indication his theology was Nestorian -- as evidenced by its reception and his veneration by the Church. But all indications I am aware of are that he formally belonged to the Assyrian church after the schism with the Orthodox Church (as did just about everyone in his region) -- indeed, he was the bishop of Nineveh, one of their important cities, consecrated to the position by the Assyrian Catholicos George I.
@@frandrewstephendamick in the vision had by St Paisios, St Isaac said that there were Orthodox Churches in that region and that he was in the canonical Orthodox Church. On what basis do you believe that this vision is false? I'm not aware of any Saint that says that St Isaac wasn't in communion with the canonical Church. This seems to be an opinion entirely based in modern scholarship. And bad scholarship at that, here is something refuting this claim that has been shared on Facebook (that he was not only Orthodox in terms of intellectual belief but was in communion with the canonical Orthodox Church): On the reason St. Mar Ishaq (Isaac the Syrian) - is a Saint, and Chalcedonian, not Nestorian as falsely claimed by an array of Orientalist Scholars: The two oldest extant Syriac manuscripts of the writings of St. Isaac of Nineveh contain a clear reference to the Saint's belief in "one hypostasis" or "kha(d) qnoma" according to the Chalcedonian formula, proving that he was not a Nestorian. The Nestorian versions of his life and writings are late forgeries, with the earliest extant Nestorian manuscripts dating to the 13th century and written in Madenkhaya script. The reference to "one hypostasis" is found in Vat Syr 125 and Sinai Syr 24, both dated to c. 8th century and written in Estrangela script. Below is f30v of Sinai Syr 24, with the expression "kha(d) qnoma" underlined (Pic 1). The Church of the East split three ways: Nestorian, Jacobite, and Melkite(Orthodox). The Nestorian Patriarch Timothy I in the year 790 officially anathematized St Isaac of Nineveh, Saint John of Dalyatha, Saint John of Apamea and countless other mystic fathers. So clearly the Nestorians originally did not claim Saint Isaac to be theirs, but actually presumed him to be a Messalian (Euchyte), a type of heresy that existed in those times. As for the Jacobites, their manuscripts of Saint Isaac's works are forgeries and in one example they scribbled out that a quote was from a Chalcedonian reference and wrote "Philoxenos" over it, the name of a heretic. The oldest extant manuscript of Saint Isaac the Syrian is dated to 7th-9th century and it is written in a MELKITE Syriac script, clearly by an Orthodox Assyrian hand. The oldest extant manuscripts written in a Nestorian script and containing the Nestorian-invented "life" as a prologue is dated to 11th-12th century, a very late (and less original) edition! Yet the "scholars" trust this fault manuscript over the much earlier Melkite one? Why? It's insane. But it suits their ecumenistic ideas. The so-called "second", "third", etc. volumes in Nestorian script, were not even penned by Saint Isaac but are in fact stolen from other earlier authors, most likely Henana of Adaibene, who although he too was a Melkite and anti-Nestorian, nevertheless he was Origenist and it explains the theological unsoundness of the alleged "seond" and "third" volumnes presented by the Nestorians in their extant 11th-12th century manuscripts. Finally, the feast of Saint Isaac of Nineveh does indeed appear in the Melkite Assyrian Orthodox calendar of Romagyris in Khwarazmia, as documented by the Persian scholar Al Biruni, but it is a separate feast that is listed I believe in February. The Orthodox Antiochian Church would also have kept that feast in the past, but the tradition was lost after 1724 when the Vatican printed Arabic Menaia and Synaxaria based on the translations from Greek books from Constantinople, and left out all the local Saints of the East that were found only in the Syriac language Melkite Orthodox menaia manuscripts> Now, there have been new discoveries that change all the previously thought ideas concerning the person of Saint Isaac of Nineveh. Until recently everyone gave into the late 13th century Nestorian version transcribed by Bedjan in the 19th century. This has been exposed as forgery. From 481 CE onwards the Church of the East consisted of three camps, namely the Nestorianizers, the Eutychianizers and the Chalcedonians. The internal struggle between these three camps was constant, until they finally split into three distinct Catholicate thrones. All three of these groups were East Syriac in language, culture and style. They differed only in christology. Saint Isaac of Nineveh actually belonged to the Chalcedonian party, and was therefore against the Nestorians and Jacobites. Being East Syrian he shared the same language, culture and style as his fellow East Syrians. There are actually two different life stories for Saint Isaac of Nineveh. The older life story found in the oldest extant Syriac manuscripts place his life from around 450 to 550 CE. In this story he was born in Nineveh and became a monk at Mar Matti Monastery, which was a Chalcedonian monastery at that time (it only switched to Jacobite two centuries later). The oldest extant texts of Saint Isaac's writings date to 7th century and are written in a Chalcedonian estrangela script. The ancient texts speak of one hypostasis and two natures, and a reference to those who reject the application of divine and human attributes to either nature as "fallen" (clearly speaking about Nestorians). The Nestorians posthumously anathematized Saint Isaac of Nineveh in 780 CE, considering him a "Messalian heretic." The original Facebook post has a scan of the original Chalcedonian Syriac text from which the imortant paragraph has been extracted (Pic 2).
@@paisios2541 Here is the actual passage from Elder Isaac's biography of St. Paisios: -- When he had come to a spot on the path near a large plane tree, something happened to him. These words, “something happened”, were the only description he gave us of the incident, not wanting to reveal the exact details. According to one testimony, he saw in a vision the choir of the holy fathers passing before him, and one of them, stopping, said to him, “I am Isaac the Syrian. I am completely Orthodox. The Nestorian heresy was indeed present in my region, but I fought against it.” We are not in a position to endorse or to reject the reliability of this witness. We know for certain only that the Elder experienced a supranatural occurrence that confirmed with perfect clarity the holiness and total Orthodoxy of Abba Isaac. -- So your description of what was actually seen in the vision is not really accurate, if one is to believe Elder Isaac's biography. (Do you have some other source you're referring to? Which sources are you pointing to that are about St. Isaac being canonically in communion?) I see nothing in this passage that is false. That said, it also says nothing about the canonical status of churches in the region. It's important not to conflate canonical status with heresy. These are not the same issue.
A great many parts of Greece (mostly the islands) after 1204 and before 1821 were occupied not by the Turks, but by Venecians, Genoans, later also French, and so on. And many of those western occupiers would not allow for example an orthodox bishop to be present (for example in Corfu) so that the people either run out of priests, or (because they would go to turkish occupated dioceses were there was no such issue to do the ordinations) people would just be fed up and become uniates. There even was period where some Greek bishops would commision Jesuit confessors to minister the mystery of confession to the laity. Now after those foreing powers were gone, and after some measure of peace entered the land, the local church started dealing with such practices reflecting back on what had happened and deciding what could be intergated and what constituted and abuse. Thing is, it's no wonder that such practices had occured given the context, but that doesn't mean that all of those practices were correct. Abuses remain abuses. Does that mean that God cannot work through those abuses? Certainly not, God is not bound by any rule. But rules and boundaries are there for a reason. God put them, so that should be saying something. So venerating Thomas Aquinas stopped, because he is no saint for us.
Most peoples were christianized, there was a surprising amount of negotiations going on. “You can’t sacrifice children, but you can send them to the priests, you can’t celebrate the solstice/equinox but you can celebrate Christmas and Easter” wasn’t Jesus born in… “we’re doing this for you…”
Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, Factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium. Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula, Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum, non factum, consubstantialem Patri: per quem ómnia facta sunt; qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis, et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine et homo factus est, crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato, passus et sepultus est, et resurrexit tertia die secundum Scripturas, et ascendit in caelum, sedet ad dexteram Patris, et iterum venturus est cum gloria, iudicare vivos et mortuos; cuius regni non erit finis. Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit, qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur, qui locutus est per Prophetas. Et unam sanctam catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. Confiteor unum Baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen
THIS IS CHRISTIAN TALMUDISM, except we don't enforce the "TRADITIONS OF THE ELDERS" of deviated "Judaism" (Matt. 15:3): rather, we embrace the Traditions of our Germanic Pagan ancestors ! There is a true Apostolic Judaism, and neither Rome, Yeasternism, or Protestantism duly embraces it. You don't sacrifice God's Law in order to syncretize with pagans.
Seems like the Latin West and the Greek East will have to reunite in these odd times. Us Catholics will have to become more orthodox in the praxis of the Creed, and the Orthodox of all varieties will have to integrate and become catholic in their relation to the rest of the Christian traditions. I dunno. I really wanna like you Orthobros.
This is the worst explanation of religious ideas iv to date seen from you Jonathan , I have huge respect for you and as an evangelical Christian who lost faith and am searching for truth your explanations of Christ as a symbol "to rule all symbols" from a great discussion with Benjamin Boyce has been drawing me back to the symbol of Christ but this discussion actually did the opposite then you usually do which is illuminate the beauty and universality Christ as a mode through which existence can be reconned with In a similar way that doestoyevsy wonderfully accomplishs In this discussion you do exactly the opposite of what you usually do and it makes me a little bit sad The dismissiveness of pegan tradition instead of a vigorous engagement with it makes me lean more towards the pegan openness rather than the christian beautiful opened towards being as being is a great mystery that one encounters instead of is simply dictated to by a teacher that informs you Dostoyevsky doesn't do this he gets right into the contradiction inherent in life and doesn't back down even if not backing down doesn't fully give you full confidence in his Orthodox Christianity For him that certainly is beside the point As demonstrated in his book " the idiot" Which for me is the most convincing book iv ever read
If we are going to justify syncretism what’s the point of making any distinction, all things no doubt point to Christ the problem is the distortion made by false religions whether intentionally or unintentionally matters not the distortion is still the problem, if we conclude Zeus is the syncretistic equivalent to Yahweh what’s the point of conversion why not say to the Greeks worship Zeus.
@@lemnisgate8809TH-cam auto-deletes many comments under Jonathan's videos, so it's likely you were struck by that instead. As for your question, I think you answered it yourself when you said "equivalent". Not equal to. Not as powerful as. Not the incarnation of. But "equivalent". In that pagan consciousness that was unaware of their creator, something had to take the place of the uncreated light in their pantheon, and for the Greek pagans it was Zeus.
@@Artorian-Runaan I agree with your assessment 100% my issue is we seem to be giving to much credence to the equivalence I understand the desire to find common ground and a link to support universal history it’s undeniable even as Romulus and Remus is a derivative of Cain and Abel which is why I comment Johnathan and his work I’m sure ancient thinkers would have also pointed out such convergences and redirect toward Christ, what I fear is we will begin to forget to redirect and get muddled in the myths we become so fascinated with the mystery of the shadows and trying to decipher them that we neglect the true light. What would serve a lay person better an extensive walk through the mythological histories of the ancient near east to lead to Christ or a simple teaching of the gospel. Considering the audience that consumes this type of information the effort here is no doubt justified but I just can’t help but think we are also in a way justifying other things.
@@lemnisgate8809Im going to sleep so I will edit this later with a timestamp, in the first thirty minutes its discussed that its good to study up on these things and actually master then… ignore this for now I will come back after Ive slept and am fresh in the morning
The Christian rock band point was well said, but it kind of disproves your thesis. Secular / pagan things in church push people away from God. It’s almost always corny and the “undecided voters” it’s intended to court, almost always prefer actual secularism to this hybrid. It’s at least a very hard balance to pull off.
I'm confused. This father sounds as if he has bitterness and hatred for Orthodoxy. The whole vibe was bizarre and his takes were not full of the Spirit of many others I have watched. I feel yucky in fact. ODD! Lord have Mercy! ☦♥
"And they worshipped the sun!" That's a damnation in the bible. I worship the sun because it clearly gives us life. Am I a heretic? I accept your judgement, jaja. Take it from the man. In the bible is Jesus the Son of Man or the Sun of Man? Or both?
How does everyone navigate around the fact that the god of christianity stems from a pantheon of middle eastern gods? feels like the european gods got simply traded for a middle-eastern god (one who conveniently cannot tolerate other gods and calls them fallen angels). I have tried, but I don’t see what I would consider otherworldly practices - all I see is jewish traditions and the veneration of their practices by european people who have seemingly lost their roots.
No Christian will give you a serious answer, they utterly reject this and will no listen. Faith is powerful but has become blind because of the setting of things in stone as it was. They just will not accept the reality. And it's funny, because most people's instinctive morality is completely opposed to much of the Bible when you just ask them questions, you also quickly realise that most people have simply never read a word of the bible, but are just trying to feel like part of popular and acceptable social tribe.
As christians we don't accept the judgement of secular scholarship as dogma because from the get go secular scholarship usually presumes facts that are openly against the christian faith. It can't be proven that supernatural events don't happen, yet we are suppossed to simply accept said jugement like passive cattle when it goes against the entire point of the religion. So, while yes, we do recognize similarities and influence in the area known as the Middle East, we utterly reject the notion that the truths contained within christianity are some sort of evolution, or mere remnants, in a historical, materialistic, secular process. You also seem to be falling in the trap of the ethnic: "Jewish traditions" you call them, ignoring completely the actual arguments and dogmas christianity puts forwad in order to justify our view of God and why those "jewish traditions" are true. Truth, whatever it may be, ought to be the basis of one religious affiliation, not blood that changes across thousands of years. From the get go some of the "ancient, european, pagan" practices are actually younger than christianity in some respects, because, unsurprisingly, decentralized folk cults have little interest in preserving dogmas.
@@Alfred5555What morality? What part of the Bible? What instinctive response? Despite being controversial, I don't see many people in christian Europe having problems using "problematic" parts of the Old Testament to justify the crusades in the past, or to be repulsed by it at all. Or do you mean the secular humanistic values that have for long dominated western culture, a mere husk of christian morality, that has little in common with what most people across history actually believed?
@@thoughtbubble7546The comment was sorta cringey, but his point is valid. It seems very much like that’s what Fr. Andrew is saying, or at least implying.
Jonathan page you if you have improved. You're on a bad run, almost tedious. Is it you or is it me? Admittedly getting old so the brain is becoming very slow on the uptake.
Shrug. I crave these discussions more than ever, I am never disappointed. Just assume that the ones that dont resound in my heart and mind are videos covering topics I know too little about, which is good.
@@erri4433 You said you crave these sorts of conversations, but the ones that you aren't interested in are ones you know little about. So you're interested in this video, presumably you know more than a little about pagan symbolism and its adoption by Christianity. Hence why in my opinion if someone who knew more than a little, agreed with this video, that it is all essentially just syncretism or not even but Christian sanctification, would in fact know little on the topic.
@@Alfred5555 youre inferring too much from “the ones that dont resound in my heart and mind are videos covering topics I know too little about” you assumed about me and lost my point. I was saying this is true for me, it may be true for this commenter too. The context: I find things “tedious” too when I encounter topics that are counter to my conditioning and difficult to wrap my mind around. (I was addressing OP.)
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Amazing episode. I'm a little surprised that Tolkien was not envolved in this conversation, since in his mythology he does a marvelous work in redeeming pagan symbolism! Even the "gods" are in some ways redeemed and find their proper place in the hierarchy.
See also The Space Trilogy by Lewis
As an evangelical, this opened my eyes a lot. Thank you. God can indeed sanctify anything for His own purposes :)
I hope you continue on your journey and explore more traditional forms of Christianity.
He who truly seeks truth shall find it, God bless.
@@lo5182
Thank you. Recently I certainly have more of an appreciation for things like the liturgy, the art in traditional churches, stain glass windows etc.
These things are so deep in meaning and I feel that Evangelical church has lost a lot of the richness that comes from tradition.
As a child and teenager I attended a Roman Catholic school and college, and much of my dad ‘s side of the family are dedicated Catholics. I became atheist in my teenage years, but came to the Lord in my early 20s. Although I am heavily involved in my own church, which is Free Methodist, many of my family events, such as christenings, funerals, and marriages are all in a Catholic Church. My reaction to many of the things inside Catholic Churches after getting saved has certainly one of distain and uncomfortableness. I can’t help but see anything but I idolatry when I she Catholics bowing down to what seems to be an idol.
But listening to these conversations is certainly starting to make me question some of these thoughts and feelings.
I have never really stepped foot inside a traditional Orthodox Church before, but I imagine it to be quite similar to the Roman Catholic Church?
I have so many questions, and I am willing to humble myself and admit that I may have been wrong about things in the past. But I’m certainly gaining a deeper respect for more traditional forms of Christianity.
I also grew up protestant and had similar reservations. What helped me was the Old testament- God told Aaron to fashion cherubim out of gold for His mercy seat on the ark of the covenant, asked Moses to embroider angels into the veil of the temple, instructed Solomon to fashion 15ft tall olive wood and gold covered cherubim for the holy of holies- idols take the place of God, but icons and most statuary all direct to God, and similary give Glory to God. Reverence to saints is not worship, only God is worshipped. If you saw someone bring flowers and light a candle before an icon and call it idolatry, the same accusation could be made that some protestants practice ancestor worship because they bring flowers and candles and sing music for their loved ones. It's all about the intentionality, the purpose, and the focus- which is why Orthodox and Catholics insist on having funerals and marriages in churches- it aligns the purpose in relation to God, because God was the first to bring man and woman together, and will also bring us up on the dread day of judgement.
That's a funny way of saying, subverted, co-opted and hijacked paganism.
In Puerto Rico we call dragonflies “caballitos de San Pedro” = “St. Peter’s little horses”
in South America we call ladybugs "vaquitas de San Antonio" = "St. Anthony's little cows"
And also, a praying mantis is a "caballito del diablo" = "the devil's little horse"
Another puertorrican here!!!!🙌😱💚
What a pleasant surprise to find fellow puerto ricans tuning into Jonathan. Gracias por la aportación y muchas bendiciones!
@@random_person6041haha there are a few of us apparently 😉
As a Lithuanian i approve this message
Came across Mr. Pageu through Mr. Peterson, inspired me to start attending the Greek Orthodox church with my wife and son in order to better understand the mysticism of Chrisitianity.
This was so important for me to hear. My heart belongs to paganism, but I am trying to converted to Christianity. To be reassured that I don’t have to let go of all of the ‘pagan’ things I love, but that I can incorporate them into a higher religion makes me profoundly satisfied.
This has to be the most interesting comment I've ever seen on TH-cam. What a journey you're on. I pray that it ends with you worshiping Christus Victor
I always like how the Hindus handled it. There is one totality of being, yet it is comprised of innumerable elements. Of many gods, one. Of one god, many. Like white light scattered through a prism and refocused back again.
I think this is what the commandment "Thou shalt have no other god before me" is about. It doesn't say there aren't other gods or that one shouldn't form a relationship with them. But they are of lesser priority; steps along the way.
Its incredibly disheartening that these people are lying to you.
1 John 2:15-17
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world-the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life-is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
You never really give up anything for Christ, he is everything. The love of God is so great as to make us forget the lesser things. In Christ is the fulfillment of our needs, not the denial of them. When you know this you will change voluntarily. You might not even notice it will be so easy
We are all pagans today, trying to be Christians. Pagans are materialists.
I am Catholic,but I so much love your show,been watching them since 2020..More grace,
When Fr. Andrew came to our church a few weeks ago, he told us he spoke with you. I'm so happy to see this collaboration. 😊
Fr. Andrew Steven Damick rocks my socks.
He is a devious little prankster. Gnomishly filling our socks with pebbels...
@@PSNSMANIACALMIND1st LMAO
Wow, a new video with Fr. Damick and Jonathan P.?! Perfect!
And he said to them, “Therefore every scribe who has been trained for the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house, who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old.”
Someone orthodox should write a book and do a deep dive on this subject
All that is good is ours.
Probably the most important conversation. Otherwise we are all split off from reality.
In Germany fireflys are called "Johanniskäfer" which is "St. Johns Bug" as well
I was a little perplexed that some Orthodox would see a sharing of a tradition, veneration etc with catholics as syncretism. We catholics share hymns with protestants, of course not all of their hymns just a select few that don't contradict our faith. And btw, we do make a distinction between Christmas carols and Christmas hymns. A carol would never be sung at mass.
Speaking of traditions, i do believe that the Christmas hymn 'Silent Night' will one day be a special hymn for those with learning disabilities. My sister who has Downe Syndrome could sing the first few lines of that hymn before she could talk and to this day she talks little and in very short sentences, but she can sing 'Silent Night'. Over the years i and others who work with learning disabled adults and children have noticed the reactions of people with learning disabilities to 'Silent Night'. I was at a Protestant hymn service and seen the same reaction to the hymn there from two learning disabled people. Its a very gentle and calming hymn and spiritually resonates with the slower and gentle pace of those with learning disabilities, and the universalism of Mother and Child.
There are sadly many Orthodox who, filled with an anti-western animus, reject the integration of western traditions and practices into Orthodoxy because they "seem catholic" or protestant. But this attitude is not reflective of the Orthodox faith; it's more of a historical issue stemming from lack of exposure to Orthodox westerners. Thankfully this is changing due to the introduction of the Western Rite into Orthodoxy.
Bro what about Filioque?
Filioque, (Latin: “and from the Son”), phrase added to the text of the Christian creed by the Western church in the Middle Ages and considered one of the major causes of the schism between the Eastern and Western churches. See Nicene Creed”
@@MoiLiberty yes I'm aware of that
I really struggle with different churches claiming to be the only true church and claiming the others are heretics. I get that the theological differences and stuff are extremely important, but I always think about "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." So I wonder if the choice of church is very important but not the most important thing, and perhaps people who put too much importance on it are making an idol of the church itself.
@@lenk172That verse is specifically about the Apostles. Not just people claiming to be Christians.
Thanks
That was amazing
Lithuanians ... yes we listen👋
ayo👋 at this point we probably need to do a symbolic world lithuanians meetup
@@augustaskunc288 Where do I sign?
Crazy how there are so much similarities between Lithuania and Mexico with the Day of the Dead and with Our Lady of Guadalupe. Never knew about it.
I'm Lithuanian and I was amazed the first time I ever heard about your traditions. It's truly astonishing how practices so similar manifest in different sides of the Earth entirely independently of each other.
I appreciate what you are doing. It’s a different point but I feel like it’s related. some stories, even when they portray sin, if they properly present it as tragic, actually remind us of God or push us towards him. Artists like Johnny Cash or Nick Cave both of whom eventually moved towards Christ always presented human characters and sin in its reality in an artful not preachy way. I feel like tragedy both in story and music is True and although it occupies a different space from worship - we have to be telling those stories always because well, most of us are more sinner than saint and our tragic experiences have to be shared or else we can’t face the truth of ourselves as well. The problem is when things are perverted and Goodness is presented as negative or sin is presented as good.
Wow, that was cool.
“Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a fishing net that was thrown into the water and caught fish of every kind. When the net was full, they dragged it up onto the shore, sat down, and sorted the good fish into crates, but threw the bad ones away. That is the way it will be at the end of the world. The angels will come and separate the wicked people from the righteous, throwing the wicked into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
"Do not quench the Spirit, but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil."
I am a Catholic from birth. I love this video. I have been to eastern Byzantine Church’s in various places. And I love them. I love the icons.
Right this minute I do not like my Catholic church’s’ behavior. It’s embarrassing and it’s crazy.
I am very intrigued with the orthodox and I know we don’t 100% agree but frankly, we probably agree quite a bit.
The bottom line … Is to fall in love with the Lord Jesus Christ… The Trinity… However, we understand it.
That’s the bottom line I think. Plus both of these churches love mother Mary.
I will not leave my Catholic faith. However, I will not listen to them anymore because they’re all acting insane.
There are a few that aren’t and that’s fine but it does not uplift me very much.
I will stick with my beliefs from childhood.
But I definitely think God does not live in a box, and we must be open to the Bible in the Lord Jesus Christ as he speaks to us through his word.
I think this is really great, and I think that we must unify with each other.
There should not be a split here I don’t like splits and I don’t think God does either.
I think we’re all pretty much in communion and I’m sorry that there is such a ridiculous situation for us all.
But I think we all are one and I thank you for all of you what you do.
And Jonathan I listen to you all the time you’re pretty cool I love it. Thank you.
Love you all!
We are united in Jesus Christ our Savior.
Good luck in your journey. The Catholic Magisterium is not confusing, embarrassing or crazy and is consistent in guiding but the members of the Church are human and love to create confusion, panic and legalism. Its hard dealing with it.
May God bless you, brother in Christ
I am Catholic, I returned to Church not long ago and I was very pleased with what I found, but the other time I went to a crazy mass with some allegedly Carmelite priests, and it was absolutely horrendous and almost upside down. I think I had nightmares that day. As you say, I wish the cult life was everywhere as it was when I was a kid, it was already Novus Ordo, but everyone was so devoted and reverent.
Don’t leave Jesus because of Judas
It’s accepting your history and integrating Christ into that. Being reborn doesn’t mean you let go of who you are totally. You keep the good stuff and let go of the bad.
I don´t even need to see the video to know that Christianity is the most inclusive Faith there is, no question about it. Christendom is the glue that binds us together, no matter our ancient pasts. God is everything! John 3:16!
Thanks for putting this out in lieu of not getting a new Lord of Spirits episode today😂
Interesting talk
Another good example of this happening between catholics and orthodox would be the icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help. Likely in other catholic countries as well (one would have to look it up), but here in Brazil there are various catholic churches dedicated to that icon, which seems to have an orthodox origin but has been in Rome for some centuries now. The catholic churches that have those are not even oriental catholics, normal latin catholics.
I myself am orthodox and I have a mini icon of it, I also know of other fellow parish members who have it. So it is a good example of a bridge between catholics and orthodox.
Zydrunas Savickas is highly appreciative of this.
Extract from Mark Twain about the adaptions of Christian icons based on nationality. (Published 1867 Innocents Abroad travel log of his trip to Holy Land).
Any one who is acquainted with the old masters will comprehend how much “The Last Supper” is damaged when I say that the spectator can not really tell, now, whether the disciples are Hebrews or Italians. These ancient painters never succeeded in denationalizing themselves. The Italian artists painted Italian Virgins, the Dutch painted Dutch Virgins, the Virgins of the French painters were Frenchwomen-none of them ever put into the face of the Madonna that indescribable something which proclaims the Jewess, whether you find her in New York, in Constantinople, in Paris, Jerusalem, or in the empire of Morocco. I saw in the Sandwich Islands, once, a picture copied by a talented German artist from an engraving in one of the American illustrated papers. It was an allegory, representing Mr. Davis in the act of signing a secession act or some such document. Over him hovered the ghost of Washington in warning attitude, and in the background a troop of shadowy soldiers in Continental uniform were limping with shoeless, bandaged feet through a driving snow-storm. Valley Forge was suggested, of course. The copy seemed accurate, and yet there was a discrepancy somewhere. After a long examination I discovered what it was-the shadowy soldiers were all Germans! Jeff Davis was a German! even the hovering ghost was a German ghost! The artist had unconsciously worked his nationality into the picture. To tell the truth, I am getting a little perplexed about John the Baptist and his portraits. In France I finally grew reconciled to him as a Frenchman; here he is unquestionably an Italian. What next? Can it be possible that the painters make John the Baptist a Spaniard in Madrid and an Irishman in Dublin?
@cathiemckimm6677 That's interesting and a real problem in the west, although I think the eastern church would be immune to that critique.
@@mitch0990 I guess the story being so true can embody any nationality or skin tone and John the Baptist would make a really good Irishman!
@@cathiemckimm6677 well i think that is sort of the jesuit perspective, but what I mean is EO icons follow a byzantine style, so there is no "white Jesus", even in Russia, Serbia, etc...
Garbė Jėzui Kristui!
Amen
So, Jonathan, when are you going to come over here to Lithuania? Now that you promised. :)
Laukiame 😀
Great topic well handled. I’ve been looking into this because of the Joe Rogan Brian Muraresku interviews on Brian’s “Pagan Christian Continuity Hypothesis”
I'm sad you reminded my about the Synod on Synodality... sigh...
It would be incredibly interesting to have a talk like this on American indigenous Christians. For many Westerners, even those who are Catholics who are so imbued with Protestant thinking, it is hard to see the blurry line between syncretism and assimilation. It doesn't help that many of these communities are still very remote by Western standards.
As I grow older, I find myself becoming more religious, but I strongly dislike the idea of indoctrinating someone. I understand that, when done correctly, it can potentially be beneficial. Mr. Pageau is a prime example of this. But I know for a fact that I cannot discuss my beliefs as gracefully as he does. Nevertheless, I have found that meaningful discussions have been where I've experienced the most personal growth.
My issue arises when I'm in conversation and I feel as though I'm preaching rather than having a genuine dialogue with someone. I'm still young and have much to learn, not only about the Bible but also about life in general. However, I often hear the phrase, "there isn't a right way to be" in today's world, and as I become more grounded in my faith, I strongly disagree with this statement. I don't want to impose doctrines on others, but I do believe in God, at least I've witnessed the power of Him in my own experience. Therefore, I feel like I have some responsibility to talk about it. Do you have any advice on how I can balance the two?
Something that was taught me early on were the beatitudes. Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. What is interesting is beatitudes 1-6 are all about personal purity ending with the pure in heart. Only after achieving purity in heart can I be a peacemaker, and only then will I be persecuted falsely for righteousness sake. Ergo, preaching and discussion can be extremely valuable, but they are infinitely more effective when coming from a pure heart in the first place. That takes time, and I don't even claim to be poor in spirit. Anyway, I suspect honestly going on a journey to achieve the beatitudes for you will allow you to achieve your aim within God's will.
@samtjman thank you so much, you've enlightened me. I wish you the best :)
This is why I still celebrate Christmas, Easter and Day of the Dead even though my church doesn’t. I claim them as family events. I don’t care that there’s pagan roots. There’s also Christian practice in that for centuries. I’m not going to get rid of it because others want to give the pagan aspect more power than the Christian aspect
No one can love the Father without keeping the commandments because that is how he is loved (according to scripture). You can't love him by bowing to a golden calf for example... When the people decided to fashion a golden calf for a feast to our Father, did our Father accept this ?
When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made a proclamation, and said, “TOMORROW SHALL BE A FEAST TO YAHWEH.” They rose up early on the next day, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play. Yahweh spoke to Moses, “Go, get down; for your people, who you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves!
Exodus 32:5-7 (please keep reading)
They were worshipping the golden calf as a god. When God cursed the Israelites to be bitten by snakes, God commanded Moses to erect a bronze snake on a cross, so whoever looks at it with faith will be healed. That’s God reclaiming the incident with the golden calf. No one who venerates icons worships them, but rather sees that God worked through the people depicted in the icon. The same way God worked through the snake on the cross, or through St. Paul’s very shadow to heal, He can work through icons.
@@lbwnova6654 read it again they dedicated the day to Yahweh ... Just like dedicating a day like Christmas to our Messiah when he wasn't even born in December using pagan practices to do so 😳.... Please provide scriptural evidence of how we are told to keep Christmas...
Hah! What about St Patrick’s day? It’s a party and food day in the USA but it’s roots are religious Too bad it’s down graded to an excuse for silliness but it could be resanctified by all thoughtful Christians.
@@Damian.Williamsare you opposed to celebrating Christmas or the way Christmas is typically celebrated?
I've watched some Ronald Hutton lectures recently about supposed Pagan deities in medieval England, and how they were not really Pagan deities after all. That blends in well with what I'm hearing here.
Sometimes I play with singers who like to sing Baltic folk songs, and I suspect them of Pagan LARPing too. I suspect that some Anglo-Americans find Baltic culture a convenient touchstone for some kind of attempt to revive European Paganism or rescue the "ancestral ways" from the Colonialist Christian Hegemony or something.
Dave Greene's essay "A Letter to Right-Wing Pagans" on his Fiddler's Greene Substack in May 2022 also squares well with this interview.
32:14 Coincidentally, the feast of the Holy Martyr Arethas and the 4,299 Martyrs with him in Najran was just a few days ago, October 24, 2 days before this video was uploaded.
This was a great conversation but it lost the plot a bit when he started talking about Catholic traditions being adopted by the Orthodox. I think he forgets just how similar we are, we are brother and sister churches. Hardly the same as the adopting of pagan imagery from ancient Rome.
Its more that its very important for Orthodox in America to hear. You wouldn't believe the level of insanity some converts go about rejecting Catholic or Protestant traditions simply because its not a standard Orthodox tradition
The Orthodox view of the Roman church is not this view. The Orthodox view is that there is only One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The functional term here is One. We do not view the Roman church as a sister or brother church.
@@jairiskeThe reason we are like that is because we cannot be one foot in, and one foot out. Given the current state of affairs, we must fully adopt Orthodox traditions and reject our former Protestant or Catholic traditions because of the radical difference between East and West. We cannot have our cake and eat it too, as the saying goes. This is why we declare that we reject our former beliefs when we’re baptized, and this is what the idea of the Orthodox phronema is.
@jairiske I don't think you can speak for Orthodoxy, whatever that means (you are not really one or catholic). But I've heard many Orthodox espouse the view of brother or sister churches
@@Re_Ruggero This is not an Orthodox view. This is a Catholic view. The Orthodox Church views Rome as in schism and bordering on heresy as the schism continues with “doctrinal development.”
Father Andrew speaks about numerology: I always cross the number seven (7). The seventh day of rest in Christ.
In England there is a carved stone high cross that has the Sigurd legend on the bottom too. Perhaps it was being used to symbolize St Michael destroying the Devil?
George Castanza of Seinfeld fame, briefly converted to Lithuanian Orthodox
So what struck me is probably way too simple but it just seems that the evolution from paganism to Christianity is simply when we know better we do better. Personally I prefer paganism over the scientism and materialism of today - the pagans intuited to worship and were spiritual. In another podcast Jonathan said Christianity AND …. Taking what remains after the knowledge of Christ as true and adding Christs teachings.❤
22:35 How many pagans in 8th Century Northumbria? Quite a few, because of the Viking settlers. See, for example, the Wikipedia article on “Scandinavian York.”
Vikings had not even started raiding England until late in the 8th C. There may have been some traders sure... but it was a solidly Christian land at that time.
Their point still stands.
Your right. I was thinking it was earlier.
@@Xanaseb No you're wrong, yes the theology was Christian, but pagan beliefs, rituals and symbolism was still the absolute forefront of the English church. Just look up the Sutton Hoo helmet, it's decorate all over with dragons and etchings of Odin performing ritual. Such a warped view of history.
@@gedbyrne8482 No you're right, he's wrong i.e Sutton Hoo helmet.
@@Alfred5555 Thanks, but I definitely made a mistake. I misremembered when the settlements in Northumbria started.
There was a strong influence, but not mass settlement like I was referring to with York. Sutton Hoo was Anglo Saxon, but it did show the likes of Odin.
Frequently I've heard of folks from other cultures converting to protestantism and thinking that their cultures cannot be saved or redeemed. Culture is a part of you and can be redeemed through Christ! It merely needs to find its place in Christianity. My heart breaks for the people who have been told that their culture needs to be cast off, usually by some pastor who doesn't understand it or know what to do with it- or worse - thinks it as just pagan and evil. It disturbs me when they are told or feel the need to adopt a more American "christian" culture. I think protestant iconoclasm and destruction of beauty, history, and wisdom has hurt so many people. I know that not all Protestants would do this... at least not intentionally. But I see it and hear of it too much.
I disliked Christianity growing up because I could tell the adults in my life were just going through the motions and pretending to understand it, but were completely unable to explain it. Pageau has given me perspective enough to appreciate it. I think over the course of my life, I have learned the lessons that Christianity is intended to convey, yet the Pagan path is what draws me.
Putting it into psychological terms, one could say that Paganism represents the primal elements of the mind - the embrace of emotions and whims as a fundamental basis of life. Jesus meanwhile represents the ego's power to direct the mind in pursuit of the higher ideals of the superego. In some sense, the white light of Heaven is made up of many colours, and Jesus is the prism through which they're brought into coherence. Yet without the individual colours, there is only darkness.
And that's where I am in life. Due to whatever trauma, health or neurological issue I'm suffering from, years ago I lost the ability to fully convert my emotions into lived experience. Life feels hollow and dead. Life used to feel so vibrant and meaningful, and now there's hardly anything left of me. I need that spark of life again; the free flow of emotions. I need my primal essence re-awakened.
One god that has found his way into my life is Odin. It was through following his path of almost masochistic perseverance against all odds that I'm able to sustain myself against depressive ruts. And it's through my feminine understanding of narrative that I reshape myself and grow.
well , let's see the power of Odin and the power of Christ through that subject , because the doors of child wonder had been opened to me since i came into the church and only closed when i was doing transgression
Well, talking about adaptation of pagan traditions. Well known in the US as a Christmas carol "Carol of the Bells" is actually old Ukrainian pagan song "Schedryk" adapted by the Ukrainian composer Mykola Leontovych in 1914. "Shchedryk" was in turn adapted as an English Christmas carol, "Carol of the Bells", by another Ukrainian - Peter J. Wilhousky of NBC Radio, following a performance of the original song by the Ukrainian National Chorus at Carnegie Hall on October 5, 1922. But the original Schedryk has nothing to do with Christmas. Shchedryk ("Bountiful Evening") is a Ukrainian shchedrivka, or New Year's song. It tells a story of a swallow flying into a household to proclaim the plentiful and bountiful year that the family will have. The title is derived from the Ukrainian word for "bountiful". The song is based on a traditional folk chant whose language was thought to have magical properties. The chant is thought to be of prehistoric origins and was associated with the coming New Year which in Ukraine before the introduction of Christianity (before Volodymyr the Great brought Christianyty to Kyiv and than spreaded it through Medieval Ukrainian state known as Rus' or Kyivan Rus') was originally celebrated in April.
As for Lithuania, she was heavily influnced and introduced to Orthodox Christianity by Ukraine (then known as Ru's, Kyivan Rus', Rusiae or Ruthenia), which after being defeated by the Golden Horde made an alliance with Lithuania forming the state Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus', etc. (Magnus Ducatus Lithvaniae, Rusiae, etc.). But then Poland brought Catrholicism to Lithuania when the two states formed even bigger alliance - Rzeczpospolita aka Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The struggle for influence over Lithuania between Ukraine and Poland led to a civil war when Grand Duke of Lithuania Švitrigaila fighting against Polish Catholic influence led an upraising of Orthodox Christians, proclaiming separation of Grand Duchy of Rus' (orthodox Ukraine and part Lithuania that today is known as Belorus) with his capital in Kyiv. Unfortunatelly he lost though the struggle between Ukrainian Orthodoxes and Polish Catholics continuede and led to the Khmelnitsky uprising which eventually destroyed Rzeczpospolita and brought bad blood between Ukrainians and Poles for centuries to follow.
Yet there were attempts to integrate Orthodoxy and Catholicism by creating "Ecclesia Ruthena unita" or Ruthenian (Rus') Uniate Church now known as Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. It was an interesting experiment conducted by Ukrainian Duke Kostiantyn Vasyl Ostrozkyi who later regreted it. Another interesting experiment was conducted in Muscovy (now known as "Russia") by anotrher Ukrainian - Theophan Prokopovich. He reformed Muscovian Orthodox Church effectively transforming it into something similar to Anglican Church by subjugating Muscovian Church to the head of Muscovy - "tsar". So it's funny for me when some Western people consider modern "Russian Church" to be Orthodox while it is essentially a kind of Protestant Church because it is fully under control of the Russian state. It was so during Russian Empire (the so-called "priests" in Russian Orthodox church were government officials) and it is so in the modern Russian Church which was recreated by Stalin. Though now "priests" there are not simply government officials, but KGB agents (during Soviet period) and now FSB agents. The current head of Russian Church (Gundyayev aka "Patriarch Kirill of Moscow") was a KGB agent in Switzerland in 1970s.
No way for me to make it to the summit, if only Dirt Poor Robins would go on tour someday...
Starting to realize how badly ppl misunderstand John's efforts.
What happens when the iconic good becomes so twisted in the minds of those who appreciate it's profound beauty that it possesses its "worshipers" with the hubris to rebel against Ineffable Good; so much so that its priests, its learned artists, and avid appreciators... even the best of them... can't even make a proper judgement in a simple land dispute, twisting complexities of meaning into idolatrous arbitrariness? In reaching for Absolute Good is it not necessary to take sides against bad disguising itself as good? After all, our ancestors did away with The Inquisition. So we can at least hate the disguised devils in our hearts and speak against them without fear of the auto-da-fé... at the moment. God Help Us All.
It always makes me giggle to think all these Neo-Norse Paganbros have based their “religion” on sources preserved by Christians
No, not "preserved" at all, the ones that survive have survived yes, but early Christianity systematically and consciously destroyed everything it didn't like, we simply do not know all that has been erased. Why are you incapable of understanding this? If Christianity didn't happen, we would still have all the same pagan knowledge but more so.
@@Alfred5555Christians preserved them. That is the only reason they exist today.
@@gch8810 No, this is just anti-math and anti-logic, Christians destroyed and erased more than they preserved, ergo they didn't preserve, they destroyed, you can't just ignore the systematic cultural erasure and point at the little that survived and conclude preservation. This is like saying Genghis Khan preserved a town, because he only wiped out 90% of them and not the usual 100%.
@@Alfred5555Christians actually preserved them for historical purposes. That’s why Pagans are able to cobble together this weird LARP religion.
@@ryrocks9487 Read my previous comments to learn why this isn't true.
We don't even have good records of early Christianity or other large sects of Christianity because the groups were fighting and erasing each other. Or was the Nag Hammadi library an example of good Christian history keeping too? The the scriptures were so persecuted they just had to buried in a pot in the middle of a desert to survive. That's a very strange, mysterious and perverted way of claiming you contributed to preserving history.
The ‘coplat stolpas ‘ (I definitely messed that spelling up), made me wonder if ‘stolpas’ has the same etymological roots as stupas, a type of spiritual shrine found all over the Buddhist world. Any ideas on that?
It's called "koplytstulpis". The two words are "koplyčia" and "stulpas". Koplyčia means chapel and its diminutive form - "koplytėlė" means a little shrine. Stulpas means a pole or a column. So it's literally a column shrine.
God owns all good and true things anyway. Like in Romans it says from Him, to Him, and through Him are all things. So yes freely reclaim any good or true thing. Evil cannot create it can only twist or steal.
So, nothing wrong with renesaince popes who mixed Hermes Trismegistos and Christ? Kaballah is OK as well?
Pachamama?
Not at all what they were saying. I can definitely see where the confusion comes in, and I don’t know if they are clear enough about what they’re saying.
Weyland is actually a Finn/Lapp. He just appears in Germanic mythology.
the bible and christs incarnation represents the summation of the wisdom of the ages that poured through so many great minds before him and after him, the bible contains many teachings from the east, from Stoics, from jewish mystics, from egyptian mysticism, from astrology. it is undeniable to not see christ as a kind of incarnation of the sun, the light of the world, he who divides the seasons, surrounded by the twelve filters of his white light the 12 signs of the zodiac. astrological symbols fill the bible, and are often found in much early christian art.
I could hear Fr Stephen De Young saying “Uhm actually” in the background
I thought that a couple of times myself.
I don’t understand the difference between polemic and polarization…. If you’re cursing “heretics”, that’s automatically going to create an interpersonal chasm between you and them.
Please speak on Graham Hancock. He’s really going against the faith. I was watching his rogan interview and he really implicitly and explicitly goes against everything.
Agreed. He has a huge animus against Christianity and the Church. His own father was a minister or priest, ironically enough...
I didn't know, I thought he was somewhat Protestant because of all the flood narrative in his work. I really like what he does, but he's definitively more intellectually near to the "scientific" postmodernity than to symbolism. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure he still has a role to play in all of this.
He’s a new age “esoteric” goober, journalist who married an African woman and never had any kids. Unsurprisingly, he’s anti Christian.
Luciferian
Hancock could be redeemed - he's humble when faced with a fault or personal struggle, per his personal history. I hope he accepts Jesus.
Just a thought I want to throw out there: I am not a naive protestant who thinks any pagan traces/ influences in Christianity should be rejected, actually I am Orthodox and I wholeheartedly agree with the notion presented here, that the ancient pagan world can and was baptised and transformed to fit into the Christian world. However, it seems to me that sometimes you gentlemen might be to quick to accept any ancient christian artefact as being "great" as if there could never have been people going to far with this in the ancient world. Especially many of the germanic frankish examples of the late 8th to 9th century seem to me not "ideal" versions of this and should be met with more scrutiny since we can see that the region lost the Orthodox Spirit not soon after. Not every pagan-christian amalgamation should be accepted solely because it is "ancient" and they could not have been wrong back then.
Anglophone "orthodox" converts are a protestant phenomenon and you are perfect evidence of that.
Once Pagan always pagan
that's not how things work , that's not how christ ordered the world , this teaching contradicts his forgiveness
Can we straighten out pronunciations? Bale is the last name of an actor first name Christian. Ba'al has a pause in the middle, and sounds like a sheep's "baaa" attached to "all".
Common usage.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt. Who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:9
God makes it very clear: “Learn not the way of the heathen…for the customs of the peoples are vain” (Jeremiah 10:2-3,), stressing His total rejection of practices adopted from other religions even if they are intended to honor Him. For God is never honored by disobedience...
So then you must explain all the times in the Bible when God Himself used pagan symbolism. The snake on the cross that He commanded Moses to erect so that whoever looks on it with faith would be healed. He reclaimed the Hebrew worship of the golden calf, showing that their worship of anything not God is evil, not the object itself. The eastern star that was followed by the pagan kings. Consulting the stars in such a manner is historically a pagan practice, but God used it to lead the kings to Himself, the One who created the stars they worshiped. The verses you quoted are not as black and white as people make them out to be. If they were, the very act of using the names of the days of the week “Thor’s day = Thursday” would be following the heathen’s way
@@lbwnova6654 biblical days are 1 2 3 4 5 6 Sabbath my friend read Gen:1 I hope this helps...
If you bring your pagan idols in your house like an evergreen tree around winter solstice tell me what scripture says that this is how you are to worship God like this?...
Yahweh says this
Exodus 20:4-6
[4] “You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: [5] you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, [6] and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
It doesn't end well when you do for example
They rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified to them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and followed the nations that were around them, concerning whom Yahweh had commanded them that they should not do like them.
2 Kings 17:15
Writing was used by pagans aswell… telling stories, painting you name it. They also breathed air…
@@Damian.WilliamsYou are using discredited scholarship not even actual atheist scholars believe, that is, associating the symbols of Christmas (symbols that are, by the way, almost in every case exclusive of North Europe yet are the basis for a condemnation of a world-wide feast with many different traditions in other parts of the worlds and associate icons) with paganism. No serious historian dares to do so and it has been shown time and time again that the majority of these traditions are modern or at best medieval innovations with no connection to actual pagan practices.
Worse, you are condemning well-established christian celebrations on the basis of a judaizing tendency, celebrations that are within the faith from even before it was legalized. Why should I thrust your judgement on these matters, and not those of saints, martyrs and genuine believers in the ancient times, closer to the apostles and the infant church? If the christian communities saw no problem with Christmas, why should we on the basis of mere speculation? It becomes even more ironic when one remembers that the church you are, I assume unknowingly, condemning, is the one that preserved and canonized the Bible you are using to attack them.
After reading the comments here, I think it’s VERY important to point out that you cannot worship God in any way you want. The Church can restore some things to the Truth, but incorporating random things that you like into worship is not Christian. God killed people for that.
Edit: What I mean by this is worshipping God is not a matter of personal preference. It is not up to each individual how they will worship Him. Worship is for us, not God. And He gave us the proper way to worship Him to unite us to Him. For our own good.
"Worship is for us not God" this is precisely why you can approach God in any way you want to.
Spirituality is the science of subjectivity. There's no One particular way that all of humanity is supposed to worship God, I know that is what Bible teaches.
But it's precisely because of this immature view of God, Iam a Hindu not a Christian. In Hinduism God is not limited as being approachable by only one path or name or particular. Rather the particulars of Worship are subject dependent not object dependent.
God doesn't need our worship. Hence we can subjectively approach him in different ways.
As a side note a God that kills people for attempting to approach him through different ways is a very juvenile and insecure God and not worth worshipping.
Such a God is not infinite and betrays a rather human and tribalistic character.
@@st.mephisto8564 No. To all of it. Hinduism is the worship of demons.
@@st.mephisto8564 He doesn't kill them. They die.
@@bradleyperry1735 "Hinduism is the worship of Demons"
We know that's your opinion and the opinion of your Church, but as sincere practicing Hindus, we consider this viewpoint bogus and worthless.
St Isaac was not a Nestorian. St Paisios claimed that St Isaac appeared to him in a vision and told him that he was not a Nestorian. Does Fr Andrew believe that St Paisios was in prelest?
He probably does
@@jacob6088 sometimes people will try to pull the "Saints aren't infallible card". But St Paisios isn't expressing an opinion here. Either St Paisios was in prelest, or St Isaac was not a Nestorian. No other option.
I don't believe that St. Isaac was a Nestorian. I said so in this video, too. There is no indication his theology was Nestorian -- as evidenced by its reception and his veneration by the Church. But all indications I am aware of are that he formally belonged to the Assyrian church after the schism with the Orthodox Church (as did just about everyone in his region) -- indeed, he was the bishop of Nineveh, one of their important cities, consecrated to the position by the Assyrian Catholicos George I.
@@frandrewstephendamick in the vision had by St Paisios, St Isaac said that there were Orthodox Churches in that region and that he was in the canonical Orthodox Church. On what basis do you believe that this vision is false? I'm not aware of any Saint that says that St Isaac wasn't in communion with the canonical Church. This seems to be an opinion entirely based in modern scholarship. And bad scholarship at that, here is something refuting this claim that has been shared on Facebook (that he was not only Orthodox in terms of intellectual belief but was in communion with the canonical Orthodox Church):
On the reason St. Mar Ishaq (Isaac the Syrian) - is a Saint, and Chalcedonian, not Nestorian as falsely claimed by an array of Orientalist Scholars:
The two oldest extant Syriac manuscripts of the writings of St. Isaac of Nineveh contain a clear reference to the Saint's belief in "one hypostasis" or "kha(d) qnoma" according to the Chalcedonian formula, proving that he was not a Nestorian. The Nestorian versions of his life and writings are late forgeries, with the earliest extant Nestorian manuscripts dating to the 13th century and written in Madenkhaya script. The reference to "one hypostasis" is found in Vat Syr 125 and Sinai Syr 24, both dated to c. 8th century and written in Estrangela script. Below is f30v of Sinai Syr 24, with the expression "kha(d) qnoma" underlined (Pic 1).
The Church of the East split three ways: Nestorian, Jacobite, and Melkite(Orthodox). The Nestorian Patriarch Timothy I in the year 790 officially anathematized St Isaac of Nineveh, Saint John of Dalyatha, Saint John of Apamea and countless other mystic fathers. So clearly the Nestorians originally did not claim Saint Isaac to be theirs, but actually presumed him to be a Messalian (Euchyte), a type of heresy that existed in those times. As for the Jacobites, their manuscripts of Saint Isaac's works are forgeries and in one example they scribbled out that a quote was from a Chalcedonian reference and wrote "Philoxenos" over it, the name of a heretic. The oldest extant manuscript of Saint Isaac the Syrian is dated to 7th-9th century and it is written in a MELKITE Syriac script, clearly by an Orthodox Assyrian hand.
The oldest extant manuscripts written in a Nestorian script and containing the Nestorian-invented "life" as a prologue is dated to 11th-12th century, a very late (and less original) edition! Yet the "scholars" trust this fault manuscript over the much earlier Melkite one? Why? It's insane. But it suits their ecumenistic ideas. The so-called "second", "third", etc. volumes in Nestorian script, were not even penned by Saint Isaac but are in fact stolen from other earlier authors, most likely Henana of Adaibene, who although he too was a Melkite and anti-Nestorian, nevertheless he was Origenist and it explains the theological unsoundness of the alleged "seond" and "third" volumnes presented by the Nestorians in their extant 11th-12th century manuscripts. Finally, the feast of Saint Isaac of Nineveh does indeed appear in the Melkite Assyrian Orthodox calendar of Romagyris in Khwarazmia, as documented by the Persian scholar Al Biruni, but it is a separate feast that is listed I believe in February. The Orthodox Antiochian Church would also have kept that feast in the past, but the tradition was lost after 1724 when the Vatican printed Arabic Menaia and Synaxaria based on the translations from Greek books from Constantinople, and left out all the local Saints of the East that were found only in the Syriac language Melkite Orthodox menaia manuscripts>
Now, there have been new discoveries that change all the previously thought ideas concerning the person of Saint Isaac of Nineveh. Until recently everyone gave into the late 13th century Nestorian version transcribed by Bedjan in the 19th century. This has been exposed as forgery. From 481 CE onwards the Church of the East consisted of three camps, namely the Nestorianizers, the Eutychianizers and the Chalcedonians. The internal struggle between these three camps was constant, until they finally split into three distinct Catholicate thrones. All three of these groups were East Syriac in language, culture and style. They differed only in christology. Saint Isaac of Nineveh actually belonged to the Chalcedonian party, and was therefore against the Nestorians and Jacobites. Being East Syrian he shared the same language, culture and style as his fellow East Syrians.
There are actually two different life stories for Saint Isaac of Nineveh. The older life story found in the oldest extant Syriac manuscripts place his life from around 450 to 550 CE. In this story he was born in Nineveh and became a monk at Mar Matti Monastery, which was a Chalcedonian monastery at that time (it only switched to Jacobite two centuries later). The oldest extant texts of Saint Isaac's writings date to 7th century and are written in a Chalcedonian estrangela script.
The ancient texts speak of one hypostasis and two natures, and a reference to those who reject the application of divine and human attributes to either nature as "fallen" (clearly speaking about Nestorians). The Nestorians posthumously anathematized Saint Isaac of Nineveh in 780 CE, considering him a "Messalian heretic."
The original Facebook post has a scan of the original Chalcedonian Syriac text from which the imortant paragraph has been extracted (Pic 2).
@@paisios2541 Here is the actual passage from Elder Isaac's biography of St. Paisios:
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When he had come to a spot on the path near a large plane tree, something happened to him. These words, “something happened”, were the only description he gave us of the incident, not wanting to reveal the exact details. According to one testimony, he saw in a vision the choir of the holy fathers passing before him, and one of them, stopping, said to him, “I am Isaac the Syrian. I am completely Orthodox. The Nestorian heresy was indeed present in my region, but I fought against it.” We are not in a position to endorse or to reject the reliability of this witness. We know for certain only that the Elder experienced a supranatural occurrence that confirmed with perfect clarity the holiness and total Orthodoxy of Abba Isaac.
--
So your description of what was actually seen in the vision is not really accurate, if one is to believe Elder Isaac's biography. (Do you have some other source you're referring to? Which sources are you pointing to that are about St. Isaac being canonically in communion?)
I see nothing in this passage that is false. That said, it also says nothing about the canonical status of churches in the region. It's important not to conflate canonical status with heresy. These are not the same issue.
You had me at larping…
Its possible that one day we will see the synod on synodality as a major step towards re-unification
Not this synod, I'm afraid :/ far from what a synod should be traditionally
Huh,… so why did they stop venerating Thomas Aquinas?
Jay Dyer was born
Arbitrary criticism of arbitrary Thomistic scholasticism something, something arbitrary.
Or else he was too fat to be a saint...?
He lacked phronema
A great many parts of Greece (mostly the islands) after 1204 and before 1821 were occupied not by the Turks, but by Venecians, Genoans, later also French, and so on. And many of those western occupiers would not allow for example an orthodox bishop to be present (for example in Corfu) so that the people either run out of priests, or (because they would go to turkish occupated dioceses were there was no such issue to do the ordinations) people would just be fed up and become uniates. There even was period where some Greek bishops would commision Jesuit confessors to minister the mystery of confession to the laity. Now after those foreing powers were gone, and after some measure of peace entered the land, the local church started dealing with such practices reflecting back on what had happened and deciding what could be intergated and what constituted and abuse. Thing is, it's no wonder that such practices had occured given the context, but that doesn't mean that all of those practices were correct. Abuses remain abuses. Does that mean that God cannot work through those abuses? Certainly not, God is not bound by any rule. But rules and boundaries are there for a reason. God put them, so that should be saying something. So venerating Thomas Aquinas stopped, because he is no saint for us.
@@kostpap3554 tldr; he lacked phronema, something arbitrary. Saint Palamas said. Absolute divine simplicity caused the gay.
Most peoples were christianized, there was a surprising amount of negotiations going on.
“You can’t sacrifice children, but you can send them to the priests, you can’t celebrate the solstice/equinox but you can celebrate Christmas and Easter” wasn’t Jesus born in… “we’re doing this for you…”
A lot it the claims you make here are assumptions and are not backed up by the evidence.
Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, Factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium.
Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula, Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum, non factum, consubstantialem Patri: per quem ómnia facta sunt; qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis, et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine et homo factus est, crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato, passus et sepultus est, et resurrexit tertia die secundum Scripturas, et ascendit in caelum, sedet ad dexteram Patris, et iterum venturus est cum gloria, iudicare vivos et mortuos; cuius regni non erit finis.
Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit, qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur, qui locutus est per Prophetas.
Et unam sanctam catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. Confiteor unum Baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam venturi saeculi.
Amen
There seems to be an extra clause in there…
THIS IS CHRISTIAN TALMUDISM, except we don't enforce the "TRADITIONS OF THE ELDERS" of deviated "Judaism" (Matt. 15:3): rather, we embrace the Traditions of our Germanic Pagan ancestors !
There is a true Apostolic Judaism, and neither Rome, Yeasternism, or Protestantism duly embraces it.
You don't sacrifice God's Law in order to syncretize with pagans.
Want to ask Fr Damick what's the deal between him and Jay
A beautifully sad conversation
So the worshippers of Yahweh the Canaanite wargod stole alot from other religions? Good to hear them admit that.😅
Seems like the Latin West and the Greek East will have to reunite in these odd times.
Us Catholics will have to become more orthodox in the praxis of the Creed, and the Orthodox of all varieties will have to integrate and become catholic in their relation to the rest of the Christian traditions.
I dunno. I really wanna like you Orthobros.
I think you’ll find that is impossible.
This is the worst explanation of religious ideas iv to date seen from you Jonathan , I have huge respect for you and as an evangelical Christian who lost faith and am searching for truth your explanations of Christ as a symbol "to rule all symbols" from a great discussion with Benjamin Boyce has been drawing me back to the symbol of Christ but this discussion actually did the opposite then you usually do which is illuminate the beauty and universality Christ as a mode through which existence can be reconned with
In a similar way that doestoyevsy wonderfully accomplishs
In this discussion you do exactly the opposite of what you usually do and it makes me a little bit sad
The dismissiveness of pegan tradition instead of a vigorous engagement with it makes me lean more towards the pegan openness rather than the christian beautiful opened towards being as being is a great mystery that one encounters instead of is simply dictated to by a teacher that informs you
Dostoyevsky doesn't do this he gets right into the contradiction inherent in life and doesn't back down even if not backing down doesn't fully give you full confidence in his Orthodox Christianity
For him that certainly is beside the point
As demonstrated in his book " the idiot"
Which for me is the most convincing book iv ever read
If we are going to justify syncretism what’s the point of making any distinction, all things no doubt point to Christ the problem is the distortion made by false religions whether intentionally or unintentionally matters not the distortion is still the problem, if we conclude Zeus is the syncretistic equivalent to Yahweh what’s the point of conversion why not say to the Greeks worship Zeus.
Did you actually listened to the video or just put it on play while you hit the crack pipe?
I find it funny you’re allowed to saying I’m a drug abusers yet my reply gets deleted.
@@lemnisgate8809TH-cam auto-deletes many comments under Jonathan's videos, so it's likely you were struck by that instead.
As for your question, I think you answered it yourself when you said "equivalent". Not equal to. Not as powerful as. Not the incarnation of. But "equivalent". In that pagan consciousness that was unaware of their creator, something had to take the place of the uncreated light in their pantheon, and for the Greek pagans it was Zeus.
@@Artorian-Runaan I agree with your assessment 100% my issue is we seem to be giving to much credence to the equivalence I understand the desire to find common ground and a link to support universal history it’s undeniable even as Romulus and Remus is a derivative of Cain and Abel which is why I comment Johnathan and his work I’m sure ancient thinkers would have also pointed out such convergences and redirect toward Christ, what I fear is we will begin to forget to redirect and get muddled in the myths we become so fascinated with the mystery of the shadows and trying to decipher them that we neglect the true light. What would serve a lay person better an extensive walk through the mythological histories of the ancient near east to lead to Christ or a simple teaching of the gospel. Considering the audience that consumes this type of information the effort here is no doubt justified but I just can’t help but think we are also in a way justifying other things.
@@lemnisgate8809Im going to sleep so I will edit this later with a timestamp, in the first thirty minutes its discussed that its good to study up on these things and actually master then… ignore this for now I will come back after Ive slept and am fresh in the morning
...or you could see it as cultural appropriation 🤷♂
Love Pageau but can’t do the AFR heterodoxy.
Some of it seems really questionable, but I’m open to correction.
Время идет а Джонатан не меняется. Он по прежнему все тот же наивный ребенок в взрослом теле.
Spoiling the Egyptians
The Christian rock band point was well said, but it kind of disproves your thesis. Secular / pagan things in church push people away from God. It’s almost always corny and the “undecided voters” it’s intended to court, almost always prefer actual secularism to this hybrid.
It’s at least a very hard balance to pull off.
Кто нибудь скиньте этот бред Октан чтобы она могла поржать с него. Джонатан с каждым роликом несет все больше и больше чуши.
I'm confused.
This father sounds as if he has bitterness and hatred for Orthodoxy.
The whole vibe was bizarre and his takes were not full of the Spirit of many others I have watched. I feel yucky in fact. ODD!
Lord have Mercy!
☦♥
Another odd comment. Why would that have anything to do with this?@@EmilyTodicescu
I'm looking to orthodoxy from protestantism. Can you recommend other Orthodox videos that might be better?
None of the things described are scriptual nor brings glory to God alone.
"And they worshipped the sun!" That's a damnation in the bible. I worship the sun because it clearly gives us life. Am I a heretic? I accept your judgement, jaja. Take it from the man.
In the bible is Jesus the Son of Man or the Sun of Man? Or both?
How does everyone navigate around the fact that the god of christianity stems from a pantheon of middle eastern gods? feels like the european gods got simply traded for a middle-eastern god (one who conveniently cannot tolerate other gods and calls them fallen angels). I have tried, but I don’t see what I would consider otherworldly practices - all I see is jewish traditions and the veneration of their practices by european people who have seemingly lost their roots.
No Christian will give you a serious answer, they utterly reject this and will no listen. Faith is powerful but has become blind because of the setting of things in stone as it was. They just will not accept the reality. And it's funny, because most people's instinctive morality is completely opposed to much of the Bible when you just ask them questions, you also quickly realise that most people have simply never read a word of the bible, but are just trying to feel like part of popular and acceptable social tribe.
As christians we don't accept the judgement of secular scholarship as dogma because from the get go secular scholarship usually presumes facts that are openly against the christian faith. It can't be proven that supernatural events don't happen, yet we are suppossed to simply accept said jugement like passive cattle when it goes against the entire point of the religion. So, while yes, we do recognize similarities and influence in the area known as the Middle East, we utterly reject the notion that the truths contained within christianity are some sort of evolution, or mere remnants, in a historical, materialistic, secular process.
You also seem to be falling in the trap of the ethnic: "Jewish traditions" you call them, ignoring completely the actual arguments and dogmas christianity puts forwad in order to justify our view of God and why those "jewish traditions" are true. Truth, whatever it may be, ought to be the basis of one religious affiliation, not blood that changes across thousands of years. From the get go some of the "ancient, european, pagan" practices are actually younger than christianity in some respects, because, unsurprisingly, decentralized folk cults have little interest in preserving dogmas.
@@Alfred5555What morality? What part of the Bible? What instinctive response? Despite being controversial, I don't see many people in christian Europe having problems using "problematic" parts of the Old Testament to justify the crusades in the past, or to be repulsed by it at all. Or do you mean the secular humanistic values that have for long dominated western culture, a mere husk of christian morality, that has little in common with what most people across history actually believed?
He doesn’t. That’s how we navigate it.
Oi… it started out good, but then it devolved into “we are the one true church.” No thank you.
Well. It’s true, and that’s what we believe as Orthodox Christians.
What's this ecumenistic nonsense ? "Muh grandpappy was catholic and lithuanian so it's okay".
Did you listen?
@@thoughtbubble7546 Yes, I did.
@@thoughtbubble7546The comment was sorta cringey, but his point is valid. It seems very much like that’s what Fr. Andrew is saying, or at least implying.
Jonathan page you if you have improved. You're on a bad run, almost tedious. Is it you or is it me? Admittedly getting old so the brain is becoming very slow on the uptake.
Shrug. I crave these discussions more than ever, I am never disappointed. Just assume that the ones that dont resound in my heart and mind are videos covering topics I know too little about, which is good.
@@erri4433 What do you know about what Christianity took from paganism? If you think it's mere syncretism, I think you know little.
@@Alfred5555 I just said I know little. What is your point with this reply?
@@erri4433 You said you crave these sorts of conversations, but the ones that you aren't interested in are ones you know little about. So you're interested in this video, presumably you know more than a little about pagan symbolism and its adoption by Christianity. Hence why in my opinion if someone who knew more than a little, agreed with this video, that it is all essentially just syncretism or not even but Christian sanctification, would in fact know little on the topic.
@@Alfred5555 youre inferring too much from “the ones that dont resound in my heart and mind are videos covering topics I know too little about” you assumed about me and lost my point. I was saying this is true for me, it may be true for this commenter too. The context: I find things “tedious” too when I encounter topics that are counter to my conditioning and difficult to wrap my mind around. (I was addressing OP.)